Regulations to get "maksman", "sharpshooter", ect.?

[Al Sayre]

Good news:
It was a normal day in Sharon Springs, Kansas, when a Union Pacific crew boarded a
loaded coal train for the long trek to Salina.

Bad news:
Just a few miles into the trip a wheel bearing became overheated and melted, letting a
metal support drop down and grind on the rail, creating white hot molten metal droppings spewing
down to the rail.

Good news:
A very alert crew noticed smoke about halfway back in the train
and immediately stopped the train in compliance with the rules

Bad news:
The train stopped with the hot wheel over a wooden bridge with creosote ties and trusses.
The crew tried to explain this to Union Pacific higher-ups but
were instructed not to move the train!

They were informed that Rules prohibited moving the train
when a part was found to be defective!

So...
Bridge and train caught on fire,
bridge burned, train burned,
bridge and train fell into river...

'REMEMBER, RULES IS RULES!'
(Don't ever let common sense get in the way of a good Disaster! )

[Eclipse]

So...

You're suggesting we melt down the NRA badges into replacement wheel bearings for trains?

[titanII]

So...

You're suggesting we melt down the NRA badges into replacement wheel bearings for trains?

That's all I got out of the post 

Just kidding. I agree with Al's post, but I don't think it applies here. There isn't much being risked by "following the rules" in this situation (by not wearing the badge).

[lordmonar]

Why would a cadet be contacting NHQ?

Why not?  They are dues paying members just as you are, and have every right to the services NHQ provides.  I'm sure most cadets have better questions than the "what time is the field trip my squadron is hosting" questions (from seniors) I had the opportunity to field.

All problems should be resolved at the lowest possible level. The org chart isn't there for wallpaper.

If all 61,000 members contacted NHQ to answer questions, nothing would get done.

Yep....but how many times do we get a "I just don't know" from those who are supposed to know?

[lordmonar]

so i actually can't wear the badge on my uniform then?

Ask your squadron commander and follow his advice.  That's what the chain of command is for.

[Hawk200]

ok, well thanks for actually clarifying it for me. In that case i'm with the group of people who believe that cadets should be able to haha especially since cadets who earned the title marksman..shartshooter..etc in the past were eligable to wear the badge of the program back then.

No, they weren't. The only NRA badge listed in 39-1 is a competition badge that had very similar requirements to DCM Marksmanship badges. It could take years to be awarded that particular badge. The only cadet I have ever known that had the badge listed in 39-1 had worked for three and a half years to get it (He was good, got it about a year faster than most). Your current marksmanship badge does not even remotely compare.

The wear of current NRA marksmanship badges seems to be more of "I have more bling than you!" Many people will wear things that aren't authorized, or in ways they aren't authorized just to show they have more than anyone else. It looks bad, and distinctly unprofessional. That lack of professionalism will make people ignore you far more than having a little less bling.

Just having badges don't make anyone any better than anyone else. Compete for the distinct badges, don't just settle for any badge.

[cap235629]

I think most here agree with that, and there are several in this thread working to fix things, but until then, rules is rules.

did you ever get a chance to look at what I sent you regarding this?

[Eclipse]

Sorry, response today for sure.  Competing priorities and lack of attention.

[Eclipse]

Off the RSS this afternoon:
http://capvolunteernow.com/news.cfm/ny_members_sharpen_shooting_skills_with_nra_rifle_course_bivouac

N.Y. MEMBERS SHARPEN SHOOTING SKILLS WITH NRA RIFLE COURSE BIVOUAC

Capt. Bob Stronach
Assistant Public Affairs Officer
New York Wing

NEW YORK – The Syracuse Cadet Squadron hosted an NRA Rifle Course Bivouac that culminated in all 28 participating cadets and six senior members passing the basic rifle shooting course.

In addition, 16 of the cadets and four senior members went on to earn Winchester/NRA Pro-Marksmanship certification.

The 2½-day bivouac took place at Verona Beach State Park, with classroom instruction and shooting at Oneida Rifle Club.

Calling the event "a huge success," 1st Lt. Matt Mallory, squadron commander, said he received a congratulatory email from head NRA instructor Dave Klish, who praised the Civil Air Patrol cadets.

"I commend you on a fantastic group of young men and women," Klish wrote. "To mold them into what you have is a testament to you, your adult help and assistants and to the youth alike.

"I have not seen such a well-disciplined and focused group in over 25 years. You should be extremely proud of your and their accomplishment."

The Rifle Course Bivouac featured more than eight hours of shooting, with the group expending more than 6,900 rounds of .22-caliber ammunition and shooting 250 paper targets.

Those earning the Pro-Markmanship certification had to "shoot five bullets into 10 bull's-eyes, scoring a minimum of 20 points in each bull's-eye, all from 50 feet away," Mallory said.

Now, he noted, "The 16 cadets are authorized to wear the Pro-Marksmanship medal on their blues uniform."

He added: "I cannot express enough how proud I am of all of our cadets and senior members that participated."

No.  They aren't.  But thank you to all involved for publishing an article which will be quoted as "fact" in this conversation.
Doesn't anyone at NHQ vet these articles?

[EMT-83]

Are senior members allowed to participate in HAA's?

I don't see anything yea or nay.

[Eclipse]

Well, there's no authorization under the current plans for seniors to participate in firearms training, the language only authorizes cadets.

I'd say other HAA's would be on a per-activity basis.

[Hawk200]

Well, there's no authorization under the current plans for seniors to participate in firearms training, the language only authorizes cadets.

Seniors can wear certain DCM badges (which the only legal ones in the manual can only be earned through military competition), maybe the original writer of the manual thought that was fine so there was no need for seniors to earn anything from the NRA.

[Spaceman3750]

Are senior members allowed to participate in HAA's?

I don't see anything yea or nay.

Seeing as how the 52-16 doesn't govern senior member training outside of the CP track I'm not sure why it would have any authority on seniors participating in HAAs.

Just my .02 and I'm sure someone will set me straight shortly.

[shlebz]

Off the RSS this afternoon:
http://capvolunteernow.com/news.cfm/ny_members_sharpen_shooting_skills_with_nra_rifle_course_bivouac

N.Y. MEMBERS SHARPEN SHOOTING SKILLS WITH NRA RIFLE COURSE BIVOUAC

Capt. Bob Stronach
Assistant Public Affairs Officer
New York Wing

NEW YORK – The Syracuse Cadet Squadron hosted an NRA Rifle Course Bivouac that culminated in all 28 participating cadets and six senior members passing the basic rifle shooting course.

In addition, 16 of the cadets and four senior members went on to earn Winchester/NRA Pro-Marksmanship certification.

The 2½-day bivouac took place at Verona Beach State Park, with classroom instruction and shooting at Oneida Rifle Club.

Calling the event "a huge success," 1st Lt. Matt Mallory, squadron commander, said he received a congratulatory email from head NRA instructor Dave Klish, who praised the Civil Air Patrol cadets.

"I commend you on a fantastic group of young men and women," Klish wrote. "To mold them into what you have is a testament to you, your adult help and assistants and to the youth alike.

"I have not seen such a well-disciplined and focused group in over 25 years. You should be extremely proud of your and their accomplishment."

The Rifle Course Bivouac featured more than eight hours of shooting, with the group expending more than 6,900 rounds of .22-caliber ammunition and shooting 250 paper targets.

Those earning the Pro-Markmanship certification had to "shoot five bullets into 10 bull's-eyes, scoring a minimum of 20 points in each bull's-eye, all from 50 feet away," Mallory said.

Now, he noted, "The 16 cadets are authorized to wear the Pro-Marksmanship medal on their blues uniform."

He added: "I cannot express enough how proud I am of all of our cadets and senior members that participated."

No.  They aren't.  But thank you to all involved for publishing an article which will be quoted as "fact" in this conversation.
Doesn't anyone at NHQ vet these articles?

(http://capvolunteernow.com/cap_volunteer/)
                EDITORIAL STAFF
Maj. Gen. Amy S. Courter - Civil Air Patrol National Commander
Don R. Rowland - Executive Director
John Salvador - Assistant Executive Director
Julie M. DeBardelaben - Managing Editor
Steve Cox - Associate Editor
Barb Pribulick - Graphic Designer
Dan Bailey, Kristi Carr, Donna Harris, Jennifer S. Kornegay,
Minnie Lamberth, Mitzi Palmer, Jenn Rowell, Lenore Vickrey
Contributing Writers

how does that work? (the nation commander being on the editorial staff) and they miss something like that....

[Tim Medeiros]

Off the RSS this afternoon:
http://capvolunteernow.com/news.cfm/ny_members_sharpen_shooting_skills_with_nra_rifle_course_bivouac

N.Y. MEMBERS SHARPEN SHOOTING SKILLS WITH NRA RIFLE COURSE BIVOUAC

Capt. Bob Stronach
Assistant Public Affairs Officer
New York Wing

NEW YORK – The Syracuse Cadet Squadron hosted an NRA Rifle Course Bivouac that culminated in all 28 participating cadets and six senior members passing the basic rifle shooting course.

In addition, 16 of the cadets and four senior members went on to earn Winchester/NRA Pro-Marksmanship certification.

The 2½-day bivouac took place at Verona Beach State Park, with classroom instruction and shooting at Oneida Rifle Club.

Calling the event "a huge success," 1st Lt. Matt Mallory, squadron commander, said he received a congratulatory email from head NRA instructor Dave Klish, who praised the Civil Air Patrol cadets.

"I commend you on a fantastic group of young men and women," Klish wrote. "To mold them into what you have is a testament to you, your adult help and assistants and to the youth alike.

"I have not seen such a well-disciplined and focused group in over 25 years. You should be extremely proud of your and their accomplishment."

The Rifle Course Bivouac featured more than eight hours of shooting, with the group expending more than 6,900 rounds of .22-caliber ammunition and shooting 250 paper targets.

Those earning the Pro-Markmanship certification had to "shoot five bullets into 10 bull's-eyes, scoring a minimum of 20 points in each bull's-eye, all from 50 feet away," Mallory said.

Now, he noted, "The 16 cadets are authorized to wear the Pro-Marksmanship medal on their blues uniform."

He added: "I cannot express enough how proud I am of all of our cadets and senior members that participated."

No.  They aren't.  But thank you to all involved for publishing an article which will be quoted as "fact" in this conversation.
Doesn't anyone at NHQ vet these articles?

(http://capvolunteernow.com/cap_volunteer/)
                EDITORIAL STAFF
Maj. Gen. Amy S. Courter - Civil Air Patrol National Commander
Don R. Rowland - Executive Director
John Salvador - Assistant Executive Director
Julie M. DeBardelaben - Managing Editor
Steve Cox - Associate Editor
Barb Pribulick - Graphic Designer
Dan Bailey, Kristi Carr, Donna Harris, Jennifer S. Kornegay,
Minnie Lamberth, Mitzi Palmer, Jenn Rowell, Lenore Vickrey
Contributing Writers

how does that work? (the nation commander being on the editorial staff) and they miss something like that....

They are likely taking a note from "ma-blue".


http://www.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-110708-068.pdf


Make a note of page 3 where it lists SECAF and CSAF

[SAR-EMT1]

All talk of the NRA courses aside, I was under the impression that at one point in time CAP cadets (and the sly SM TAC officer) could qualify at base ranges during encampment and earn the Air Force marksmanship ribbon. (But this was back when live ammo was used in BMT instead of simulators...)

If any marksmanship item is reauthorized it ought to be this.

[lordmonar]

All talk of the NRA courses aside, I was under the impression that at one point in time CAP cadets (and the sly SM TAC officer) could qualify at base ranges during encampment and earn the Air Force marksmanship ribbon. (But this was back when live ammo was used in BMT instead of simulators...)

If any marksmanship item is reauthorized it ought to be this.

At one time the AFI's did allow for cadets to qualify for the M-9 pistol (IIRC) and earn the marksmanship ribbon.  But that has changed.

Since we have not control of the AFI.....and no way of getting the USAF to give us any range time....I don't see that happeing.

[cap235629]

This is very good reason for CAP to have a marksmanship program. Every other cadet program has one.  We should too.

[Major Lord]

CAP does "permit" marksmanship training, but small arms training in CAP has even less emphasis that the "Real" Air Force.....which is to say, not much. I believe that this is primarily the result of the CAP archetype S/M who reviles all things military, and is in denial that we are in fact, a Paramilitary Organization. ( You can feel them squirming in anguish right now about that description, can't you?) I suggest we only provide marksmanship training to Cadets ( or Seniors for that matter) who may want to survive a close encounter of the worst kind, and let the rest act as human shields, relying on the kindness of evil men and enemies. That's worked so well in the past.....

As for the NRA badge, we know that it was intended to be worn with pride on the the Cadet Uniform. If you have the shooting iron, pin it on until someone has the guts to write a regulation that declares it against the rules, instead of playing lawyer ball with a bunch of bedwetters who read the regulations with the mindset of turning CAP into a gelded pony.

Major Lord

[Dad2-4]

Well, there ya go.
Unfortunately some people believe we should not offer marksmanship training. But while we do, let's do it right and follow the regs. The current regs do not authorize the current NRA awards to be worn on the CAP uniform. If we choose to ignore that, then we choose to ignore other bling or misconstrue the regs to make them say whatever we want. The regs do not specifically say that I cannot wear my Army and NRA marksmanship badges, so I guess I can wear them.
I'll go right now to pin my Army Expert badge on my CAP uniform (like I saw an encampment C/CC do) along with my NRA medals. After all, I earned them. Major Lord said I could.