Uniforms: Things never change...gotta love consistancy

[rmcmanus]

Not that we currently have the most remote chance of changing things, I am definitely against red additions to the uniform.  Heck, the grey is  already less than desirable.

[Major_Chuck]

Way back when I started with CAP I wore the AF style uniform with the burgundy epaulets and then we transitioned to the grey when I was a Captain.  Which I thought the grey and silver looked good on the AF Style uniform and still do.

I like the aviator uniform.  Personal opinion.

The CPU, I didn't like it for a number of reasons.  Probably because of the man pushing it was one.  Second it was just another added cost to members when we had multiple uniform combinations.    If you are going to introduce one, remove one. 

Anyways, all valid opinions and there is nothing easier to stir the pot then to bring up uniforms.

Chuck

[Eclipse]

The CPU

The proper nomenclature is "CSU", as in "Corporate Service Uniform".  Refering to it as anything else is simply a backhanded
comment on HWSRN and a forehanded slap at people who continue to wear and an advocate its continued use.

Second it was just another added cost to members when we had multiple uniform combinations.    If you are going to introduce one, remove one.

The CSU did not add a single dollar to anyone's budget unless they were inclined to wear it - the whites never changed, and
the CSU was not required, so I have no idea how you can characterize it as an "added cost to members".  It was no more an "added cost"
than a flight suit, golf shirt, or blazer, all of which are optional combinations after a member procure the required USAF blues or aviator whites.

With the CSU, all members had a military-style option, which allowed them to fulfill their missions while not looking like a member
of the city council next to others in blues.  If and when the CSU's sundown sticks, we will once again be back to a situation where
a significant population of our members is without a uniform which fulfills all of their mission requirements in a way which does not hold
them out as "different".

Anyways, all valid opinions and there is nothing easier to stir the pot then to bring up uniforms.

Especially in regards to topics which already have a number of open threads.

[RVT]

I personally like the CSU uniform. I would wear it if they kept it around.

second

I would too, even though I meet AF standards.  I thought it looked nice except for the silver braid.

[Major_Chuck]

CSU my mistake.  To me it will always be the TPU for the obvious reason.  For the record, I know a lot of people in CAP that purchased the uniform or pieces of it to stay current.  So in effect it did add to peoples budgets, especially when the brass at the top of CAP were pushing it.

Yes there are a lot of topic threads on uniforms and I added to it.  Intentionally I must add.

The CPU

The proper nomenclature is "CSU", as in "Corporate Service Uniform".  Refering to it as anything else is simply a backhanded
comment on HWSRN and a forehanded slap at people who continue to wear and an advocate its continued use.

Second it was just another added cost to members when we had multiple uniform combinations.    If you are going to introduce one, remove one.

The CSU did not add a single dollar to anyone's budget unless they were inclined to wear it - the whites never changed, and
the CSU was not required, so I have no idea how you can characterize it as an "added cost to members".  It was no more an "added cost"
than a flight suit, golf shirt, or blazer, all of which are optional combinations after a member procure the required USAF blues or aviator whites.

With the CSU, all members had a military-style option, which allowed them to fulfill their missions while not looking like a member
of the city council next to others in blues.  If and when the CSU's sundown sticks, we will once again be back to a situation where
a significant population of our members is without a uniform which fulfills all of their mission requirements in a way which does not hold
them out as "different".

Anyways, all valid opinions and there is nothing easier to stir the pot then to bring up uniforms.

Especially in regards to topics which already have a number of open threads.

[Eclipse]

Yes there are a lot of topic threads on uniforms and I added to it.  Intentionally I must add.

Awesome.  Nothing better than making rehashed points into a new thread.

Really moves the dialog forward.

I like to "keep current" with uniforms, too, but that isn't the same as forcing people to spend money.  People do what they will - anyone wearing and
able to use the USAF style who went out and purposely bought the CSU "to keep current" has no business doing anything but thanking NHQ for offering another choice, they certainly have no room to complain about the money they spent, other than in the context that it will potentially be disallowed too early.

[Nilsog]

Slap this bad boy on everyones left shoulder, and suddenly we all are easily distinguished as CIVIL AIR PATROL. Imagine that.

[LTC Don]

Coming up out of the eighties as a cadet, then senior member and wearing the blue epaulettes with the embroidered CAP on them was an honor because I felt I was doing something that mattered.  When the maroon scourge occurred, both the CAP executive leadership, but also the CAP-USAF leadership respect meter fell to zero with me.  Something was taken from me.  Oh yes, it was a pretty fair chunk of dignity. Over the course of a short period of time, we went from blue epaulettes, to maroon epaulettes, to grey epaulettes.  Why now does not matter.  What happened, happened, but the damage was never appropriately repaired.

Those wounds will never heal until our blue epaulettes are restored.  If the embroidered CAP was/is unsufficient to 'differentiate' us from the RM either from embarassment or whatever, then a prominent embroidered silver triangle and nice red tri-prop can be added above the grade insignia. That's all. End of story, life goes on.  Oh, and the blue nameplate gets restored as well.

The bottom line on the whole uniform issue is not the uniforms, but an issue of training.  We are not training our members to wear the uniform properly, to explain the heritage of the uniform and what it represents, etc. etc.  The old classroom based Level I didn't do a good job, and even now, the current Level I Foundations course does not do a good job either, as we keep having the same complaints come up over and over.

I've always found it odd that CAP expects a brand new member to get all they need, a 'foundation', if you will, in the course of an 8-hour course (back in the day), or an online course that takes a few hours sitting at a computer........boggles the mind.

The CSU should remain as an options as well.  It is a very good looking uniform for those members who do not meet USAF height/weight and grooming standards + 10% or just don't want to wear the USAF uniform.




There.  I feel better. 



Cheers,

[cap235629]

Slap this bad boy on everyones left shoulder, and suddenly we all are easily distinguished as CIVIL AIR PATROL. Imagine that.

TOTALLY AGREE! On the left sleeve of all uniforms. Put the wing patch on the right sleeve on field/BDU's/flight suits getting rid of the reverse flag on the BDU's. Put all seniors in BBDU's. All Seniors in AF Dress but with the white shirt instead of the blue shirt. The combination of the shoulder boards, patch on left shoulder and white shirt should eliminate any confusion allowing everyone to be in ONE uniform again.

Leave the cadet uniforms alone.

[Eclipse]

Those wounds will never heal until our blue epaulettes are restored.

The Civil Air Patrol would be much better off as an organization if we focused on things which actually mattered, and actually occurred in the current century.

Few current members are even aware of the situation, and fewer still view it as anything but a blip on the radar.  Anyone viewing it as an "open would" needs to seriously re-evaluate their level of personal drama.

I've always found it odd that CAP expects a brand new member to get all they need, a 'foundation', if you will, in the course of an 8-hour course (back in the day), or an online course that takes a few hours sitting at a computer........boggles the mind.

The program's curriculum is very clear that Level 1 is the beginning of training, and strongly recommends the pairing of people with mentors. The biggest problem is the unwillingness to hurt anyone's feelings, so members are allowed to wallow in their own mistakes and misinterpretations for years, and then propagate those issues along with them.

Couple that regulations that conflict between each other and themselves, and a PAO directorate willing to continue to publish photographs of members
in incorrect / retired / inappropriate uniforms, and you see why we are where we are.

[NCRblues]

Ok, i have an idea....

How about we leave the uniforms alone, and focus on getting new missions for our dwindling SAR numbers...

Also we could leave the uniforms alone, and figure out who we are, and who we are going to be as an organization in an ever changing world.

We could also leave the uniforms alone and figure out our massive governance FUBAR.....

Just some crazy ideas....

[Eclipse]

^K

[Nilsog]

It will be a lot easier to figure all that out once we've finished figuring out who we're supposed to be.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I guess some have a problem figuring out who they are in CAP and what CAP is in the world.

Not ME.

CAP is the USAF Auxiliary, we take care of Cadet Programs, assisting our youth to grow up with core values, a sense of pride, and skills that they will need in order to succeed in the world, both civilian and military. All of this in a drug and alcohol free and abuse free environment.

As the USAF Auxiliary we also take care of about 95% of all inland search and rescue, both on the ground and in the air. We are also an all volunteer organization who during the Gulf Oil Disaster flew well over 1,000 hours to support the cleanup and the cordon of the oil by flying and taking photographs of the disaster area and efforts.

EDIT: NOT TO MENTION OUR WWII HISTORY, WITH COMBAT OPERATIONS.

We also teach, not only our Senior Membership and Cadets, but youth and adults in the community about air power and the need for it.

We as the USAF Aux must realize that were we not the USAF Aux, and were not in the uniforms, we would no longer exist in the capacity that we do. I hope you realize it, once we shed the uniform of the USAF, we will loose the Aux status, and we will also loose our funding from both Congress, also our organizational status, and funding from the USAF. We will barely exist if at all were these actions to take place.

What we are and what we do is incredible. We would be nothing were it not for Ma Blue. We are civilians who volunteer our time for our community state and nation, getting to wear the USAF uniforms with our own insignia is a privilege.

I don't care if some of you hate the uniforms or not, I don't care if you hate us being in the uniforms because you are retired military, I am a disabled vet who wears the USAF style uniforms proudly while I do my job for CAP and USAF. I DO (not don't) care if you hate the USAF style uniforms because you are too heavy, because when I am able, I try to talk to the right people and get them on my side allowing the overweight to wear the USAF style uniforms, why? Because you deserve it. If you are fuzzy, and not overweight, and you whine about the USAF uniforms, I really don't care. I think for SMs you should be in grooming standards just as all cadets are.

I don't mean to hurt anyone, or make anyone mad, this is my opinion, and whenever I can I will do my best to get everyone in the USAF style uniforms, with blue epaulets, and to be able to look good in them as well.

[Major Carrales]

The only truly good and educational uniform topics on here are one where historical uniforms are pictured and discussed.  Topics on uniform "wish lists," possible changes and the like usually end in vitriol and banality.

[Nilsog]

I guess some have a problem figuring out who they are in CAP and what CAP is in the world.

I'm assuming this was aimed at me. I think you took my post wrong. What I meant was, it will be a lot easier for everyone to focus on other things when they stop crying about uniforms all the time and figure out that we are CAP, regardless of the colored thread we cover ourselves with. If USAF says we're to wear Pink trousers and white shirts with purple rank and tapes, how will that change what we do? Sure, thats a radical example, but the fact remains we are Civil Air Patrol, and the longer we cry about losing blue shoulder boards 20 years ago the more we're going to be perceived as big blubbering babies who want nothing more than to look like USAF wannabees.

Be glad we are permitted to wear the uniforms we are permitted to, wear them properly and with pride.

[ßτε]

I guess some have a problem figuring out who they are in CAP and what CAP is in the world.

I'm assuming this was aimed at me.

I am pretty sure it was not at all addressed to you.

[PHall]

Slap this bad boy on everyones left shoulder, and suddenly we all are easily distinguished as CIVIL AIR PATROL. Imagine that.

Now why do you want to steal the Overseas Squadrons "Wing" patch?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I guess some have a problem figuring out who they are in CAP and what CAP is in the world.

I'm assuming this was aimed at me. I think you took my post wrong. What I meant was, it will be a lot easier for everyone to focus on other things when they stop crying about uniforms all the time and figure out that we are CAP, regardless of the colored thread we cover ourselves with. If USAF says we're to wear Pink trousers and white shirts with purple rank and tapes, how will that change what we do? Sure, thats a radical example, but the fact remains we are Civil Air Patrol, and the longer we cry about losing blue shoulder boards 20 years ago the more we're going to be perceived as big blubbering babies who want nothing more than to look like USAF wannabees.

Be glad we are permitted to wear the uniforms we are permitted to, wear them properly and with pride.

No Sir, this was not aimed at any one person. Only to state how I feel about the uniform wear, what I want to see, and what I try to advocate when I can. I guess you could say I was kind of aiming towards groups, but no individual. I have met quite a few CAP personnel who fit into one of these categories that I mentioned. Just because they are overweight, does not mean that I have any less respect for them. I have the most respect of any CAP personnel for one who is overweight, he gives of so much of his time and effort running our squadron's Comms and our morale leadership. He is overweight, he is not in the prime of his life, but he still tries to run around like a 19 year old marathon runner taking care of our cadets and our ground teams on the radios. This Captain is amazing. I have the most respect for him of anyone in my squadron, and I have a lot of respect for every one of our members, our CC is amazing, so are our AE Safety and PAO officers. However our assistant ESO (that's me) has a long way to go to measure up to them.

I want every CAP member to be able to wear the USAF style uniforms, that is all. Especially those who give so much to our Cadets and our organization.

[Nilsog]

Now why do you want to steal the Overseas Squadrons "Wing" patch?

That is not the overseas wing patch.

And I offer my apologies for my previous post. Perhaps it was I who read wrong.