CAPM 39-1 REVISIONS GAME

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Rest assured, that wasn't meant in a derogatory manner. Only as he wasn't a cadet and doesn't spend that much time around cadets. After you spend enough time around cadets you will see that they love the uniform and are motivated by it, especially when there is something that they can do to make the uniform a little more personal by showing their achievements. Adults may not be as motivated by these sort of things as teenagers. Also not saying teenagers care more about the uniform than what they do in the uniform.

[JoeTomasone]

Allow plain grey shoulder marks for SMWOG (hi Eclipse!).

Allow SMWOG to wear CAP metal cutouts (pain to sew cloth ones on and then remove them when promoted)

By this logic, why force SMWOG to buy epaulet sleeves that mean nothing once promoted?   Only way I can see this is if all SMs use them and pin metal grade insignia on them.    I'm in favor of SMWOG simply wearing NO sleeves until they make 2d Lt in 6 months or so.   I concur with the CAP cutouts and nothing on the BDU/BBDU cap.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

By this logic, why force SMWOG to buy epaulet sleeves that mean nothing once promoted?   Only way I can see this is if all SMs use them and pin metal grade insignia on them.   

You know what Joe, you just might be on to something there. That would make things cheaper. You would only need to buy sleeves at certain intervals of PD advancement or when yours get worn out. That would make being promoted just a little cheaper. Plus I thing it would look pretty good. Also make the CAP at the top of the sleeve metal too.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Point taken about the plain grey shoulder marks.

However, unless the metal grade pinned to it were of a different size, shape etc than what the RealMilitary uses (think some law enforcement agencies), National will cry (first) EEK! (visions of berry boards in their collective noggins) and then NO!

I had even thought about regulation USAF blue shoulder marks with CAP cutouts pinned to them...but then that thought went down the pipe as it wouldn't even fit in the "when pigs fly" category...it'd be more like "when pigs go Warp 9 in a Klingon Bird-Of-Prey."

[Ned]

(. . .) National will cry (first) EEK! (. . .)

Sigh.

Please remember that National Headquarters doesn't care about CAP uniforms one way or another.  The 100 or so corporate staff working tirelessly on our behalf do not make policy, not do they make the regulations.  They work in civilian clothes in any event.

If by "National" you meant our senior volunteer leadership such as the National Commander, NB, and NEC then you should recall that they were the very groups that implemented the CSU so that all of our members could have a professional-appearing uniform that would allow for the display of earned CAP ribbons and badges.

"National" is not some sort of enemy trying to make you look silly in an unprofessional uniform.  "National" is volunteers, just like you and me.  Who have always tried to do the right thing when it comes to uniforms.

If you really need an enemy, just look around here - we have a lot of very reasonable folks right here on CAPTalk, and there is nothing even resembling a consensus on what our uniforms should look like.  Everyone has their own ideas.  Most people seem to think that whatever awards, ribbons, and badges they have not earned are "unnecessary" and could be removed from the uniform.  Similarly, if a member earned any sort of award for military or civilian service anywhere in the universe, they believe it should be allowed on the CAP uniforms.  At t least [i[their[/i] uniform.

[HGjunkie]

Remove the American flag patch-put specialty patches back on right sleeve

Disagree

Clarify that badges are to be sewn 1/2 to the white thread of the badge not the blue border

Agree

Switch to tan combat boots (black are getting next to impossible to find)

Disagree

Allow cadets to wear only their highest achievement award if they are so inclined

Highly disagree

Update NRA badge wording
Update Military awards wording (If you are awarded the AF small arms ribbon as a CAP member you should be able to wear it.)

Agree

Wing Patches back on Blues Coat and "class B" shirts

Disagree

Discontinue the following (those who have earned may continue to wear) CPR patch, ES "pluto patch" (allow the T34 oval patch), ES decal on white helmets, Rad Monitoring patch, model rocketry patch, check pilots patch, afrcc patch, nasar patches, archer patch, Pre-solo badge, neat patch.

Strongly disagree

...and the following ribbons are gone too
community service ribbon, AFA and VFW ribbons...

Extremely disagree

[Eclipse]

If by "National" you meant our senior volunteer leadership such as the National Commander, NB, and NEC then you should recall that they were the very groups that implemented the CSU so that all of our members could have a professional-appearing uniform that would allow for the display of earned CAP ribbons and badges.

and they are they same group who allowed it to be taken away without an acceptable replacement.

If you really need an enemy, just look around here - we have a lot of very reasonable folks right here on CAPTalk, and there is nothing even resembling a consensus on what our uniforms should look like.  Everyone has their own ideas.  Most people seem to think that whatever awards, ribbons, and badges they have not earned are "unnecessary" and could be removed from the uniform.  Similarly, if a member earned any sort of award for military or civilian service anywhere in the universe, they believe it should be allowed on the CAP uniforms.  At t least [i[their[/i] uniform.

For the most part the folks on this board just want a consistent, simple, uniform that meets the mission requirements of all the members in an equal and reasonable way.

The first step towards that is a couple of us here being granted the authority to spend a few hours on a weekend and normalize all the regulations, remove the ambiguity, typos, and outright incorrect information so that 99% of the "discussions" become moot.

This would include, of course, disallowing all the nuance we find in various wings and making everyone wear the same uniform, the same way, no matter where in CONUS they are standing.

This is a baseline situation that every other similar organization has solidified, but we can't seem to get out of our own way on it.

[Eclipse]

YES
I've been running a junior rifle program that gives out those awards since 1999. The wording was wrong then

Your rifle program can give out all the badges it wants, CAP members just can't wear them.

Switch to tan combat boots (black are getting next to impossible to find)

Um...seriously?  You might want to try, I don't know, looking in stores.  They tend to stock this kind of thing.

[Ned]

and they are they same group who allowed it to be taken away without an acceptable replacement.

Strange.  I was in the (rather small) room at the time, and that's not how I remember it. 

But what do I know?

But if it makes you feel better to bad-mouth the National Commander and NEC, feel free to do so.

But make sure you review the CAP Core Value of Respect.

[Eclipse]

How is directly stating a fact bad-mouthing anyone, or straying from core values?

Please feel free to enlighten us on who really disavowed the CSU.  I'm sure we'd all like to really know.

Fact 1 - The CSU sundowns on 31 DEC 2011

Fact 2 - There is no suitable replacement for the CSU.

Who else but our national leadership has the authority to do that?

[SarDragon]

If by "National" you meant our senior volunteer leadership such as the National Commander, NB, and NEC then you should recall that they were the very groups that implemented the CSU so that all of our members could have a professional-appearing uniform that would allow for the display of earned CAP ribbons and badges.

But it didn't end up being a uniform for all members, just the chubby folks. We fuzzy folks got left out.

[GroundHawg]

YES
I've been running a junior rifle program that gives out those awards since 1999. The wording was wrong then

Your rifle program can give out all the badges it wants, CAP members just can't wear them.

Switch to tan combat boots (black are getting next to impossible to find)

Um...seriously?  You might want to try, I don't know, looking in stores.  They tend to stock this kind of thing.

Wow you might want to try, I don't know not being condesending or sarcastic. 

What stores do you suggest, Walmart, Target, Sams? Because the local AAFES at the 3 closest bases (1 AF and 2 Army, All over 100 miles) dont stock them and they are a special order which I can do online. None of my local surplus stores has any under $60. Im currently wearing my Cocoran Jump Boots that I got at Ft. Bragg in 1996. They are the only pair of black boots I kept when we transitioned to the ACU. I do not plan to ever wear them in the field. I think that having to resort to Ebay to get a pair of boots at resonable prices is pushing the limits. I have the money, but I have cadets in my squadron that do not. I have already bought 3 pairs of boots this year for cadets that otherwise would not be able to wear their uniform properly. (all from the base thrift shop btw)

[Eclipse]

I'm being both condescending and sarcastic, this is what I do.

"Black boots" are so readily available as to be seriously laughable to make the comment that they are "getting scarce".
You're putting a whole lot of caveats on the follow-up to make your argument. 

As you mentioned, boots are easily obtainable online, and how about police and fire uniform stores?  They don't have to be
"jump boots". Tactical boots are cheaper, more comfortable, and readily available.

These are $40:

http://www.schooluniforms.com/5075.html
(literally the first of 4,680 hits in Google shopping for the term "military style boot")

As to cadets not being able to afford them, the flag is thrown there as well, first, it is irrelevant to the discussion
on which ones to wear, considering the tan ones won't be any cheaper, and will be much more easily ruined in normal
use, second, no matter what you propose, somebody always raises their hand on the cadet cash flow issue.

Good on 'ye for doing it, but supplying your members with uniforms from your own pocket is not your responsibility and
in most cases is counter productive.

And for the record, my Walmart does, in fact, sell boots that are more than acceptable for CAP wear, sorry yours doesn't carry them.

[cap235629]

for what it is worth, I bought my boots at Academy Sports.  Wal-Mart carries black "duty" boots that are well within regs and MUCH cheaper than AAFES.  I think people get hung up on having to wear "official issue" boots.  WHY?  Even WIWOAD the first thing I did was ditch the boots they issued me and got something that I liked better and had better functionality. I still have 1 pair of the boots I was issued 20 years ago.  They are my "muck" boots, they haven't seen polish in 20 years.

For what the majority of CAP members need boots for, a $25.00 pair of Chinese made jungle boots more than fits the bill.....

[Hawk200]

I think people get hung up on having to wear "official issue" boots. 

This concept still escapes me too. Most of the time while active duty, I didn't wear issue boots. I got boots that met the safety requirements, but most weren't issue items, but still compliant. Half the time, I sold them off to someone that "had to have them." I always bought things that were comfortable, and most issue boots aren't (to me).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If by "National" you meant our senior volunteer leadership such as the National Commander, NB, and NEC then you should recall that they were the very groups that implemented the CSU so that all of our members could have a professional-appearing uniform that would allow for the display of earned CAP ribbons and badges.

"National" is not some sort of enemy trying to make you look silly in an unprofessional uniform.  "National" is volunteers, just like you and me.  Who have always tried to do the right thing when it comes to uniforms.

If you really need an enemy, just look around here

Sir, I don't need any enemies, nor do I try to make them.  I've made far too many in my lifetime without trying.  I still do as I stumble through life.  Sometimes it's for being too blunt, sometimes for being too taciturn.

I defer to you as someone with a lot more TRUE knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes in that building on Maxwell AFB than I do.  For those of us who do not have your first-hand knowledge, all we have to go on is rumour and innuendo, sometimes accurate, more often not.

I do not know General Courter; I have never met her (the only National CC's I have met were General Bergman and General U.S. Ranger Corps Leader), but those who have tell me she is a fine person and very dedicated to the welfare of those under her command.  I have no reason to believe otherwise.  God bless her in all she does for this sometimes-crazy organisation.

The NB and NEC to me are a baffling bureaucracy who often seem to contradict one another, and honestly I don't think I'm smart enough to understand what goes on there.

All I can do is look at it from the point of view of a Captain-soon-to-be-Major-I-hope who has been in and out of CAP a couple of times in the past 18 years, who does the best he can with his limited abilities.

And, from my point of view, the whole uniform thing, especially the CSU issue, is vexing.

First, the ICL's said it was being received "with great enthusiasm," and that CAP was actively seeking the Air Force's input on things that were in fact changed, like hard rank on the flight cap, and using "CAP" rather than "U.S." on the lapels of the service coat.  I know a heckuva lot of people who liked it, myself included, even though I never got to wear the full service coat configuration.

It seemed like a relatively happy medium had been found between the AF uniform and the grey/whites, except of course for our friends with facial hair.

Then, seemingly out of nowhere, it was axed.  No real explanation as to why, and no explanation as to why, even with General Courter's modifications (which were an example of inventiveness on her part), it still had to go.  If it had to go, why modify it?

When one doesn't get a clear explanation, then ideas, not always accurate, begin to take shape.  Nature abhors a vacuum, and when a vacuum exists, often the wrong kind of air is blown in to fill that vacuum.

In my case, since I joined right after the imposition of the berry boards, maroon epaulettes, which was always presented to me as a punitive measure by the Air Force because of several incidents, it has seemed to me, rightly or wrongly, that "National," be it the NEC, NB, BoG, or anyone else I've omitted, have been fearful that somehow, some way, one of our uniforms/insignia is going to offend the Air Force and it will be grounds for another punitive measure.  The reaction, like booting out the CSU (if that was a reaction), has seemed to me to be like using a guillotine to cure a headache, and (rightly or wrongly) seeming to promulgate grey as the only acceptable colour for a CAP-distinctive uniform, gives me the impression that suggesting anything in any shade of blue triggers a reaction of "no, we can't do that, we might (heavy emphasis) anger the AF again," when it is not known whether or not that is the case without asking our parent service.

I am quite aware that there are colleagues of mine in CAP, some on this board, who would, given their way, "de-militarise" us completely, sever all links with the Air Force, cut all ranks, uniforms, ribbons etc, and be solely an ES organisation with airplanes.  I am not one of those.

Sir, I respect your service to this organisation greatly, not to mention your qualifications.

I apologise if I have given you, or anyone else, offence.

[Ned]

How is directly stating a fact badmouthing anyone, or straying from core values?

Directly stating a fact is not badmouthing anyone.  But of course, we both know that is not what you did.

Let's review:

What you actually said was:

they [are the] same group who allowed it to be taken away without an acceptable replacement.

Which is quite a collection of value-laden opinions attempting to masquerade as "fact."

Let's start with your choice of the word "allowed."  Which, according to the dictionary on my desk means "permitted, consented, or granted." All of which require volitional choice.

So tell me, Bob, upon what facts do you base your assertion that the NEC had a choice in the matter?  Or that they didn't try as hard as they could to preserve a professional appearing uniform that would allow members to wear earned CAP badges and decorations?

Or we could look at your choice of the word "acceptable."  Another value-laden word that does not easily resolve to the level of a "fact."  I have no doubt that you and many others do not feel that any other uniform choice is "acceptable."  I know that many on the NEC would share that opinion to a greater or lesser degree.  (But of course the ultimate question is "acceptable to whom?")


And the reason that your accusation of wrongdoing by the NEC (deliberately choosing to leave our members without an "acceptable" uniform) is improper is because it fails to treat the members of the NEC fairly by presuming some sort of malice or improper motive without any basis to do so. 

All CAP members have a duty to respect other members, including our leadership.  Directly and publicly implying that our leaders acted improperly in their actions concerning the CSU violates our Core Value of Respect.

Note it always permissible to disagree with a leader's decisions.  I imagine some of your squadron commanders may disagree with your actions from time to time.  But if they started posting publicly on the internet that your decisions were "unacceptable" or that you had "allowed" some calamity when you knew you had no choice, they would be violating our core values.

Wouldn't you agree?

Now I expect that you will try to turn this around and avoid telling us what facts are in your possession to justify your statements.  Most likely you will try to put the ball in my court and ask me to justify the NEC's actions to your satisfaction.

But that's kinda the point.  You are the one making the statements, not me.  And it is not my job to justify the decisions of the NEC to you or anyone else.  As an officer and a commander, it is your job to support and explain the actions of the chain of command to others and your subordinates if you can.  And if you can't, to seek clarification from the chain.

But it is never an officer's job or privilege to go on-line and publicly impute improper actions or motives to his/her superiors.  It's that whole respect and loyalty thing.

Ned Lee

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Sir, I realise you are not talking to me in this post, so forgive me if I am out of turn.

...upon what facts do you base your assertion that the NEC had a choice in the matter?

I don't know.  Did they?

All CAP members have a duty to respect other members, including our leadership.  Directly and publicly implying that our leaders acted improperly in their actions concerning the CSU violates our Core Value of Respect.

Agreed.  I don't mean to imply anything, but my main feeling is one of perplexity.

How did a uniform that was so well-received, and altered according to the wishes of the Air Force, suddenly become "unacceptable?"

If this were depicted in a comic strip, there would be a huge "?" in a bubble over my head, and a lot of other CAP officers'.

And it is not my job to justify the decisions of the NEC to you or anyone else.

I'm not asking for justification, but there has been precious little information officially released, and again, nature abhors a vacuum.

I would like to know why, outside of the very vague terminology of "low light/at a distance" and the mechanics of the decision, but as you say it's not the job of the higher-ups to tell me or anyone else.  I have heard a lot of rumours, some I've posted on here, others I haven't (and won't).

But it is never an officer's job or privilege to go on-line and publicly impute improper actions or motives to his/her superiors.  It's that whole respect and loyalty thing.

Which I hope I'm not doing, not intentionally anyway.  My guess that NHQ/NEC/NB/BoG/etc. are afraid of a repeat of the early 1990s is pure speculation on my part, in the absence of known fact, and based on what is heard in the very imaginative CAP rumour mill.

I know that my opinion, to say nothing of the many others in CAP who share it to whatever degree, is going to change the minds of the officers appointed over me.  My dad always lamented the loss of the Ike jacket (I still have his old one) and the Army's adoption of the "greens," (now of course going the way of the CSU) but nonetheless as a soldier in the Army he had to comply...as do we as officers in the USAF Auxiliary.

I will wear my CSU when required by UOD until 2359, 31 December 2011.  After that, it will go in the closet with my old four-pocket "Tony Nelson" service coat.  I will most likely then resume the AF blue uniform (I'm just in the ballpark of H/W) as my primary "office dress."

[BillB]

Much of the thread contains speculation or based on rumor on why the CSU and other uniform changes were made. For example the CAP cutouts replaced by the US cutouts on service dress. It's mentioned Big Blue did it as a sop for losing the blue shoulder sleeves. Ignmoring the fact that it was almost a 10 year difference between the two.
The biggest problem is the lack of information passed from Headquarters to the membership. There is less space in "The Volunteer" compared to "CAP News" for information to the membership. And "The Volunteer" is the only avenue for members to see what is news in CAP. Many members are unaware that an ICL has been issued, or actions by the NEC or NB if the minutes are not posted. The lack of information leads to rumors or misinformation to the membership.

[Hawk200]

The biggest problem is the lack of information passed from Headquarters to the membership. There is less space in "The Volunteer" compared to "CAP News" for information to the membership. And "The Volunteer" is the only avenue for members to see what is news in CAP. Many members are unaware that an ICL has been issued, or actions by the NEC or NB if the minutes are not posted. The lack of information leads to rumors or misinformation to the membership.

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