CAPM 39-1 REVISIONS GAME

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Blue beret.

I'm assuming you were in an operational environment per the supplement?

Or unit sponsored training.
But no, I thought it was the meeting where it is all ES training, but wrong night.

[Eclipse]

Blue beret.

Well...that is some whuffie you'll never get back...

[davidsinn]

Blue beret.

I'm assuming you were in an operational environment per the supplement?

Or unit sponsored training.
But no, I thought it was the meeting where it is all ES training, but wrong night.

I consider unit sponsored training(FTXs and the like) to be operational. An all ES meeting night is a gray area but since the supplement is loosely worded I wouldn't have a problem with it unless the person wearing it became a problem(attitude).

Blue beret.

Well...that is some whuffie you'll never get back...

It does look pretty good and is comfortable to boot.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Blue beret.

I'm assuming you were in an operational environment per the supplement?

Or unit sponsored training.
But no, I thought it was the meeting where it is all ES training, but wrong night.

I consider unit sponsored training(FTXs and the like) to be operational. An all ES meeting night is a gray area but since the supplement is loosely worded I wouldn't have a problem with it unless the person wearing it became a problem(attitude).

Attitudes do come largely with items like those, but I know cadets like that sort of thing, it is a bonus for them, so I wear it for them. Plus I am actually more comfortable in a beret, I have worn one for about 10 years.

[Eclipse]

...cadets like that sort of thing, it is a bonus for them, so I wear it for them. Plus I am actually more comfortable in a beret, I have worn one for about 10 years.

You wear it for them?

Ok, seriously...

[Eclipse]

It does look pretty good and is comfortable to boot.

Yeah, super high speed.   

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I forgot Eclipse, you don't work with cadets, nor were you one.

You would be surprised how far something like that will carry some cadets. Now we don't want cadets to be motivated in the field of ES for the badges, berets, or awards, but you have to remember cadets do get a feel good attitude from things of that sort. However some will also feel awkward being the only one wearing a large item such as a beret. So yeah, I would wear just about anything to help a cadet feel better about him/herself, even if it made me feel like a dork. Also, I have been wearing a beret for so long that a PC does feel rather weird. I haven't worn a PC since Basic Training, even then it felt weird because as a cadet I wore a beret more often than not, it was the headgear for the HG, and we wore it for GT also. So I do feel like it is more comfortable.

Now back to the thread.

If the 39-1 is re-written now then we have to be ready for it to be re-re-written in another yearish, if the field uniform changes. I still do think it would be good to have a reliable regulation that isn't shrouded in controversy as much as it currently is.

[GroundHawg]

BDU/BBDU
Remove the American flag patch-put specialty patches back on right sleeve
Clarify the amount of badges to be worn above the pocket (2-3?) and allow one on the pocket flap for a total of 3 or 4
Clarify that badges are to be sewn 1/2 to the white thread of the badge not the blue border
Get rid of the BBDU and go with OD (pipe dream but I would switch to OD right now if it were an option)
Switch to tan combat boots (black are getting next to impossible to find)
Blues
Clarify the amount of badges to be worn above the pocket (2-3?) and allow one on the pocket flap for a total of 3 or 4
Allow cadets to wear only their highest achievement award if they are so inclined
Allow the wear of a foreign badge (to include cords) above the nameplate (cadet or senior) The AF allows but only in said country
Update NRA badge wording
Update Military awards wording (If you are awarded the AF small arms ribbon as a CAP member you should be able to wear it.)
Wing Patches back on Blues Coat and "class B" shirts
Back to CAP cutout on oneside with rank on the other for Cadet enlisted, back to CAP cutouts for ALL on all uniforms (NOT U.S.)
Patches/Awards
Military Badge chart showing what can and cannot be worn
Discontinue CAP NCO ranks (those who are may continue to be, all new members are officers)
Discontinue the following (those who have earned may continue to wear) CPR patch, ES "pluto patch" (allow the T34 oval patch), ES decal on white helmets, Rad Monitoring patch, model rocketry patch, check pilots patch, afrcc patch, nasar patches, archer patch, Pre-solo badge, neat patch.
...and the following ribbons are gone too
Orientation pilot ribbon, community service ribbon, AFA and VFW ribbons, Nat Unit Citation, and the Eaker ribbon.

[Spaceman3750]

Switch to tan combat boots (black are getting next to impossible to find)

The rest of your post aside, especially the seemingly pointless bit about discontinuing certain patches and ribbons for no real reason, in what way are black boots getting next to impossible to find? Google turns up lots of result, many of the relevant, along with eBay and Amazon. Oh, and that little place called Vanguard, then there's your local surplus shop, and asking your state director about getting some from DRMO (at the squadron or group level, not just the individual level). As much as you may hate Vanguard, it has everything you need.

[N Harmon]

I would be happy if we could simply go to tapes/insignia that was white on whatever color material it was being applied to. I would even pay extra for it from vanguard.

[JoeTomasone]

Switch to tan combat boots (black are getting next to impossible to find)

The rest of your post aside, especially the seemingly pointless bit about discontinuing certain patches and ribbons for no real reason, in what way are black boots getting next to impossible to find? Google turns up lots of result, many of the relevant, along with eBay and Amazon. Oh, and that little place called Vanguard, then there's your local surplus shop, and asking your state director about getting some from DRMO (at the squadron or group level, not just the individual level). As much as you may hate Vanguard, it has everything you need.

Just saw two different styles at MCSS this week as well.

[jeders]

BDU/BBDU
Remove the American flag patch-put specialty patches back on right sleeve

Agree 1000%

Clarify the amount of badges to be worn above the pocket (2-3?) and allow one on the pocket flap for a total of 3 or 4

Agree on clarification, should be 2. Disagree on the pocket flap.

Clarify that badges are to be sewn 1/2 to the white thread of the badge not the blue border

Pretty sure that this is already in there in clear language. But if it's still a little fuzzy, then agree.

Get rid of the BBDU and go with OD (pipe dream but I would switch to OD right now if it were an option)

Disagree, mostly because it's a "new" uniform, not a 39-1 fix.

Switch to tan combat boots (black are getting next to impossible to find)

Disagree, haven't had any problem finding black boots, and the AF wears green.

Blues
Clarify the amount of badges to be worn above the pocket (2-3?) and allow one on the pocket flap for a total of 3 or 4

Agree/disagree, same as above.

Allow cadets to wear only their highest achievement award if they are so inclined

Disagree, have you ever known a cadet who wants to wear fewer ribbons.

Allow the wear of a foreign badge (to include cords) above the nameplate (cadet or senior) The AF allows but only in said country

Not sure.

Update NRA badge wording

Definitely agree.

Update Military awards wording (If you are awarded the AF small arms ribbon as a CAP member you should be able to wear it.)

Definitely agree.

Wing Patches back on Blues Coat and "class B" shirts

Disagree. Taking the patches off brought us more inline with the AF. Plus, I'm pretty sure they told us to take them off.

Back to CAP cutout on oneside with rank on the other for Cadet enlisted, back to CAP cutouts for ALL on all uniforms (NOT U.S.)

Disagree completely, rank on both sides brought us more in line with the AF.

Patches/Awards
Military Badge chart showing what can and cannot be worn

Disagree, a chart would be outdated in a few years, the current language saying occupational specialty badges never gets outdated.

Discontinue CAP NCO ranks (those who are may continue to be, all new members are officers)

Disagree because this is outside the purview of a 39-1 revision.

Discontinue the following (those who have earned may continue to wear) CPR patch, ES "pluto patch" (allow the T34 oval patch), ES decal on white helmets, Rad Monitoring patch, model rocketry patch, check pilots patch, afrcc patch, nasar patches, archer patch, Pre-solo badge, neat patch.
...and the following ribbons are gone too
Orientation pilot ribbon, community service ribbon, AFA and VFW ribbons, Nat Unit Citation,

Disagree, why do you want to just axe a bunch of things that recognize achievements inside and out of CAP?

and the Eaker ribbon.

Strongly disagree. Double why?

[jimmydeanno]

I forgot Eclipse, you don't work with cadets

I'm pretty sure that he runs encampment every year, IIRC.  But I was a cadet and I work with them and agree with his perspective of them.  But, to each his own.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Allow cadets to wear only their highest achievement award if they are so inclined

Yes.
Someone said no because most cadets will wear them all. Why not give the option. Some older cadets might like it.

Update NRA badge wording

YES
I've been running a junior rifle program that gives out those awards since 1999. The wording was wrong then 

Back to CAP cutout on oneside with rank on the other for Cadet enlisted, back to CAP cutouts for ALL on all uniforms (NOT U.S.)

As far as the cadet grade, YES. If you disagree have you calculated the expense in doubling squadron supplies of senior cadet NCO grade. 4 C/CMSgt cutouts are $36 + Vanguard's famous low shipping.

...and the following ribbons are gone too
Orientation pilot ribbon, community service ribbon, AFA and VFW ribbons, Nat Unit Citation, and the Eaker ribbon.

Beginning to think you just don't like ribbons...

[a2capt]

Beginning to think you just don't like ribbons...

No, thats were the real 'RM' must have went.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Allow cadets to wear only their highest achievement award if they are so inclined

Yes.
Someone said no because most cadets will wear them all. Why not give the option. Some older cadets might like it.

Update NRA badge wording

YES
I've been running a junior rifle program that gives out those awards since 1999. The wording was wrong then 

Back to CAP cutout on oneside with rank on the other for Cadet enlisted, back to CAP cutouts for ALL on all uniforms (NOT U.S.)

As far as the cadet grade, YES. If you disagree have you calculated the expense in doubling squadron supplies of senior cadet NCO grade. 4 C/CMSgt cutouts are $36 + Vanguard's famous low shipping.

...and the following ribbons are gone too
Orientation pilot ribbon, community service ribbon, AFA and VFW ribbons, Nat Unit Citation, and the Eaker ribbon.

Beginning to think you just don't like ribbons...

Sounds to me that he is mostly trying to get away from anything that would associate us with the military too much, such as ribbons and how grade is worn, along with a patch such as the Pluto patch that could be looked at as something that looks like a campaign patch.

[GroundHawg]

I dont hate ribbons or patches or awards... I just hate when they are to excess. I dont get why there are 5 patches and a ribbon for pilots when they already have wings to indicate they are pilots. You want to simplify a uniform manual? Strip it down.
I dislike cartoonish insignia that imho does not present a professional image. Want to be taken seriously? Take off the Disney Pluto patch off your uniform, would have been more appropriate if it were Goofy. Seriously.
Uniforms look better when they are free of clutter, but I also belive that the CAP needs to look like the CAP not the AF.
As for the boots, I can get a set of NEW desert boots at most of the local surplus stores for $20-$30. I have to order black boots online as NOONE has them here locally and they run on the low end used between $30-$50 USED and $60-$100 new. Im just trying to stretch what little cash I have.
And Vanguard sucks, I wont order anything from them that I can get elsewhere. Ever.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I dont hate ribbons or patches or awards... I just hate when they are to excess. I dont get why there are 5 patches and a ribbon for pilots when they already have wings to indicate they are pilots. You want to simplify a uniform manual? Strip it down.
I dislike cartoonish insignia that imho does not present a professional image. Want to be taken seriously? Take off the Disney Pluto patch off your uniform, would have been more appropriate if it were Goofy. Seriously.

I think that the Pluto patch goes back to the early days of CAP. In WWI and WWII cartoon characters were very widely used on patches and planes, along with them being painted or drawn in places where our troops have been. They were used on planes, on bombs, tanks and many other places, and still are today. In fact where do you think ole Kilroy comes from?

Uniforms look better when they are free of clutter, but I also belive that the CAP needs to look like the CAP not the AF.

Exactly my point. CAP is USAF. We are the OFFICIAL AUXILIARY!!!

As for the boots, I can get a set of NEW desert boots at most of the local surplus stores for $20-$30. I have to order black boots online as NOONE has them here locally and they run on the low end used between $30-$50 USED and $60-$100 new. Im just trying to stretch what little cash I have.
And Vanguard sucks, I wont order anything from them that I can get elsewhere. Ever.

I have to agree that VG sucks. They are the worst company that CAP could have contracted with. However I can get a nice pair of jungle boots brand new at the local surplus for $25, or I can get a decent used pair for about $15, simply because the demand isn't out there as much now. I have asked about the boots at the local surplus and their plan to keep them, they said that they don't plan to get rid of the black jungles ever. They are just not hard to get at all.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Hmmmm....

Double Hmmmm...

There have been some good suggestions in this thread.  Whether any of them are adopted or not...throw it at the wall and see if it sticks.

My suggestions will be divided into three categories, Reasonable, Iffy, and When Pigs Fly.

REASONABLE:
AF Blue Uniform
Adopt brushed silver CSU nameplate with "Civil Air Patrol."  I've seen it being worn with blues (unauthorised) already.

Re-adopt CAP cutouts...the "U.S." were granted to us (I think) as kind of a sop for losing the blue shoulder marks.

Define exactly what badges/ribbons can/can't be worn, and spell it out in 39-1.

Allow plain grey shoulder marks for SMWOG (hi Eclipse!).

BDU's/BBDU's
White on navy blue nametapes and grade insignia, as now allowed on the utility jumpsuit.

Perhaps go to solid green BDU's...military look, but not worn by U.S. military.

Allow SMWOG to wear CAP metal cutouts (pain to sew cloth ones on and then remove them when promoted)

Utility jumpsuit:
Authorise flight cap for wear...it's already authorised with the CAP blue flight suit and the only difference in the two is the material they're made of.  It's illogical to differentiate between one being NOMEX and one not.

Phase out plastic-encased grade in favour of embroidered on dark blue for all flight suits, jackets, etc.

IFFY:
Campaign, lobby, beg, borrow, steal, whatever to retain CSU with General Courter's modifications (possibly in "when pigs fly" category).

AF Blue Uniform:
Ask AF (nicely) to adopt similar standards as USCGAux for height/weight

Ask AF (nicely) to use plain blue nameplate; they're easy to get and AFROTC/JROTC already uses them...why not us?
Propose to AF (nicely) that we give up dark-blue sleeve braid

Ask AF (nicely) to replace Hap Arnold buttons with CAP buttons as sold by Vanguard.

Aviator uniform:
As much as I hate it, grey is too ingrained to change.  So change white aviator shirt for Van Heusen blue aviator shirt...different cut and darker blue to AF issue.  Standardise grey UNIFORM trousers (law enforcement, security type).

Dark-blue/black commercially-available airline pullover sweater.

I have no idea about headgear, except to enquire about Navy black or USPHS black garrison caps:



WHEN PIGS FLY
AF Blue Uniform:
Ask AF (nicely) to permit us to wear the same blue shoulder marks that cadets do...blank for SMWOG and with smaller-size metal grade for officers, perhaps in exchange for readopting CAP cutouts.  These would be worn on both the blue shirt and service coat epaulettes (not sure if they'd be wide enough for those).

Ask AF (nicely) to allow us to wear same shoulder boards/epaulet sleeves as AFROTC, perhaps with a CAP cutout pinned to them (SDF's sometimes wear cutouts of their state abbreviation pinned to their shoulder marks).  Vanguard has a full listing.

Aviator uniform:
Adopt dark-blue airline-type coat to replace current bloody awful blazer w/pocket protector, with blazer-type nameplate, CAP cutouts and badges. This may also go in "iffy" category.

Let the rotten tomatoes begin....

[Bluelakes 13]

I forgot Eclipse, you don't work with cadets, nor were you one.

Na, not at all.