So why do we have height and weight standards?

[RiverAux]

Why is military losing?

Because there are significant and growing numbers of CAP members who don't want to wear military uniforms either because they don't want to hassle with the C&C and the fact that the civilian style is cheaper and easier to maintain.  Some are even former military who are tired of wearing any uniform. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Why is military losing?

Because there are significant and growing numbers of CAP members who don't want to wear military uniforms either because they don't want to hassle with the C&C and the fact that the civilian style is cheaper and easier to maintain.  Some are even former military who are tired of wearing any uniform.

What makes you think that if you wear the alternative uniforms (other than the polo) you don't have to use proper C&C?

[Eclipse]

Why is military losing?

Because there are significant and growing numbers of CAP members who don't want to wear military uniforms either because they don't want to hassle with the C&C and the fact that the civilian style is cheaper and easier to maintain.  Some are even former military who are tired of wearing any uniform.

Utter nonsense.

[RiverAux]

Why is military losing?

Because there are significant and growing numbers of CAP members who don't want to wear military uniforms either because they don't want to hassle with the C&C and the fact that the civilian style is cheaper and easier to maintain.  Some are even former military who are tired of wearing any uniform.

Utter nonsense.

Are you saying that my explanation for why civilian uniforms are dominating CAP is nonesense or are you denying my observation that this is the case?  There are most certainly pockets here and there where the military style uniforms are what you see, especially in more formal situations, but in everyday use and especially in any flying activity, the civilian uniform is on top or very close to it.

If you are in the civilian uniforms you may still have to say sir and people's ranks, but you don't have to salute others and most people won't salute you.  Keep in mind I'm distinguishing between the civilian uniforms (golf shirt, blazer) and the military style uniforms (both AF-style and CAP corporate). 

[Smokey]

I see it more as many folks would prefer to be in a flying club that sometimes does stuff for the Air Force.   I've seen members leave because they had to meet the training requirements (like the FEMA stuff, safety requirements, etc).  Their interest is flying, not service.  I've seen folks join and the first thing they want to do is go flying.  When they discover there are training requirements like having to have a scanner rating, Form 5, Form 91, etc. they disappear. 

Some of those that stick around are willing to comply with the training requirements but prefer not to be identified with the military.  If they are asked to put on a uniform, especially the AF style (Blues, green zoom bag, BDU) they find a reason not to.

Not sure why they feel that way but they do....I know of one member who meets hgt/wgt and if he got his hair cut just a bit shorter ( just slightly over the top of his ears)  would qualify for the AF uniform....instead he won't even wear a corporate version to squadron meetings.  He just want to get to where he can fly .




Maybe some of the members her can explain it.  There are those here who are rabid about us moving away from the AF and the military uniforms.

[Smokey]

These are the same folks that if the Air Force changed to the CAP uniforms (Blue BDU, Blue Flightsuit, White & grey uniforms) they would show up in green flight suit, Camo BDU, and the Blues.  Just so they wouldn't have to be identified with the AF.

It's like the kid who is anti authority who violates the school dress code or has his pants sagging.....

[JohnKachenmeister]

We have a lot of anti-military sentiment in CAP, and here on CAPTalk.  That is why California is prohibited from wearing AF uniforms on missions (offends Code Pink) and why a hard core of people here insist on CAP changing into a government-funded civilian flying club, eliminating military uniforms and rank.

Personally, I would rather be an auxiliary officer of the US Air Force than an unpaid employee of a nonprofit "CAP, Inc."  I like the military (even though I'm now too old to serve actively... I just watch my Army pension Direct Deposits roll in on the first of the month) and I like associating with military guys.  The day CAP becomes more long-haired ZZ-Top looking civilian flying club members than green-bag wearing pilots, is the day I'm gone.

So far, that hasn't happened where I serve.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

We have a lot of anti-military sentiment in CAP, and here on CAPTalk.  That is why California is prohibited from wearing AF uniforms on missions (offends Code Pink) and why a hard core of people here insist on CAP changing into a government-funded civilian flying club, eliminating military uniforms and rank.

Personally, I would rather be an auxiliary officer of the US Air Force than an unpaid employee of a nonprofit "CAP, Inc."  I like the military (even though I'm now too old to serve actively... I just watch my Army pension Direct Deposits roll in on the first of the month) and I like associating with military guys.  The day CAP becomes more long-haired ZZ-Top looking civilian flying club members than green-bag wearing pilots, is the day I'm gone.

So far, that hasn't happened where I serve.

Hear Hear!!! I don't understand why people come to a CAP meeting look around and think flying club, unless there is something wrong with how the current members are putting CAP across to the potential members. CAP is THE USAF AUXILIARY! ONE OF OUR EARLIEST MISSIONS WAS THE DEFENSE OF OUR COASTAL BORDERS DURING A WAR. When the tie of CAP and USAF is cut, and we are turned into nothing more than a good ole boy's flying club is the day I quit. Until then, I will wear the USAF style uniform promote CP ES and AE, I will salute my officers, call them by their rank or Sir, stand at attention for them, and salute the life out of the United States of America's Flag!

[SARDOC]

Hear Hear!!! I don't understand why people come to a CAP meeting look around and think flying club, unless there is something wrong with how the current members are putting CAP across to the potential members. CAP is THE USAF AUXILIARY! ONE OF OUR EARLIEST MISSIONS WAS THE DEFENSE OF OUR COASTAL BORDERS DURING A WAR. When the tie of CAP and USAF is cut, and we are turned into nothing more than a good ole boy's flying club is the day I quit. Until then, I will wear the USAF style uniform promote CP ES and AE, I will salute my officers, call them by their rank or Sir, stand at attention for them, and salute the life out of the United States of America's Flag!

I also agree and am proud of the history of the Civil Air Patrol...but hasn't the status of CAP already shifted away from being the USAF Auxiliary full time.  I thought technically we are now only the official auxiliary while assigned to an AFAM.  I thought the Air Force decided that for us.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The Air National Guard is only a part of the US Air Force when called into federal service.  otherwise, they are under the governor.  Pretty much the same for us... the law just determines who pays for what and whose insurance is responsible for what.  We wear the AF uniform even on corporate missions just like the Guard wear the uniform on state duty.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I see it more as many folks would prefer to be in a flying club that sometimes does stuff for the Air Force.   I've seen members leave because they had to meet the training requirements (like the FEMA stuff, safety requirements, etc).  Their interest is flying, not service.  I've seen folks join and the first thing they want to do is go flying.  When they discover there are training requirements like having to have a scanner rating, Form 5, Form 91, etc. they disappear.

BTDT, in a senior squadron.  In my experience the overwhelming centres of that mentality are in senior squadrons.  I was in a senior squadron as my second CAP unit and would never join one again.  It was a pilots' club, pure and simple, and if you weren't a pilot you were excess baggage (that included observers and scanners).  I was the only one wearing the AF uniform...most others couldn't be bothered to wear a uniform and only wore a CAP baseball cap to stay within regs while flying.  Forget professional development, AE, etc., and cadets.  They didn't like doing cadet O-rides, but they were all too ready to sign up their significant others so they could ride in CAP aircraft (zero participation otherwise; the unit had a huge roster but very little active membership other than pilots).

Disclaimer: I don't wish to infer that all senior squadrons are like this.

Maybe some of the members her can explain it.  There are those here who are rabid about us moving away from the AF and the military uniforms.

Yes, there are those members who are rabid about it, and they almost got their way in 1995 when John McCain wanted to take us completely away from the Air Force and move us to the Department of Transportation (which would have killed the cadet side).  There are some very vocal proponents of moving CAP to the Department of Homeland Security, most of whom have only two things on their agenda:

FLY

ES

...and non-pilots need not apply.

If that ever does come to pass, there are going to be a lot of people gone from CAP.

Hopefully, I'll have enough accumulated time to "retire" from what used to be the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary.

[Eclipse]

Why is military losing?

Because there are significant and growing numbers of CAP members who don't want to wear military uniforms either because they don't want to hassle with the C&C and the fact that the civilian style is cheaper and easier to maintain.  Some are even former military who are tired of wearing any uniform.

Utter nonsense.

Are you saying that my explanation for why civilian uniforms are dominating CAP is nonesense or are you denying my observation that this is the case?  There are most certainly pockets here and there where the military style uniforms are what you see, especially in more formal situations, but in everyday use and especially in any flying activity, the civilian uniform is on top or very close to it.

If you are in the civilian uniforms you may still have to say sir and people's ranks, but you don't have to salute others and most people won't salute you.  Keep in mind I'm distinguishing between the civilian uniforms (golf shirt, blazer) and the military style uniforms (both AF-style and CAP corporate).

I am saying your assertion that members increasingly don't want to wear the USAF-style combos because of the hassle or a dislike for C&C is based on nothing but your personal anecdotal observation and I say it is nonsense.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I am saying your assertion that members increasingly don't want to wear the USAF-style combos because of the hassle or a dislike for C&C is based on nothing but your personal anecdotal observation and I say it is nonsense.

Well, add another personal anecdotal observation.  I witnessed it in the senior squadron I described.  Very few of the members wanted to go on military installations because they didn't want to wear a proper uniform and remember all the "playing army" saluting.

[Eclipse]

^ I constantly wonder what organization these people thought they were joining.

Oh to be a fly on the wall during the recruiting conversations...

[Mark_Wheeler]

We have a lot of anti-military sentiment in CAP, and here on CAPTalk.  That is why California is prohibited from wearing AF uniforms on missions (offends Code Pink) and why a hard core of people here insist on CAP changing into a government-funded civilian flying club, eliminating military uniforms and rank.

Regarding California Wing and the CAWG Ground team uniform, you can't be farther from the truth. We wear the BBDU pants with orange shirt so that we can better work with our customer, whether it be Cal-EMA or the local Sheriffs Office. At first, I wasn't a big fan of the uniform, I just shelled out money for BDU's and I wasn't keen on spending more money. However, once I've seen how much more respect we get just by trying to "dress the part" its all worth it.  Recently we had an ALNOT for an aircraft that called in to a tower saying they were going in. We had ELT reports that placed it in an urban interface where it could have been a simple UDF mission or a full ground team search.  We had an aircraft take off and started hearing an ELT and we were prosecuting the signal.  The sheriffs were the with us in the field with there helicopter and as I was told ( I was in the base) that for the first time in quite a while, they were very willing to work with us, partly because we didn't look like we were going to hide in the woods in BDU's. We dressed the same way they were and they respected the fact that we wanted to fit into the "big picture"

Saying that we're getting away from AF uniforms because we don't want to offend anti-war protesters is absurd.

Mark

[JohnKachenmeister]

No, it is not absurd.

California cities have passed resolutions declaring the Marine Corps to be "Unwanted Aliens."  San Diego, once a pro-military town, has banned military recruiters from schools. 

Everyone else in the country wears the USAF uniform on missions.  ONLY California finds working with people in a military uniform offensive and dresses them up in a ridiculous clown suit in order to work SAR.

I have been in ES in the air and on the ground for many years in two wings, and the "Customers" I have worked with have appreciated the fact that the USAF provided a professional military unit to assist them.  "When you care enough to send the very best."

Besides... your "Customer" on a SAR mission is the USAF... AFRCC at Tyndall is paying the bills.

[RiverAux]

Why is military losing?

Because there are significant and growing numbers of CAP members who don't want to wear military uniforms either because they don't want to hassle with the C&C and the fact that the civilian style is cheaper and easier to maintain.  Some are even former military who are tired of wearing any uniform.

Utter nonsense.

Are you saying that my explanation for why civilian uniforms are dominating CAP is nonesense or are you denying my observation that this is the case?  There are most certainly pockets here and there where the military style uniforms are what you see, especially in more formal situations, but in everyday use and especially in any flying activity, the civilian uniform is on top or very close to it.

If you are in the civilian uniforms you may still have to say sir and people's ranks, but you don't have to salute others and most people won't salute you.  Keep in mind I'm distinguishing between the civilian uniforms (golf shirt, blazer) and the military style uniforms (both AF-style and CAP corporate).

I am saying your assertion that members increasingly don't want to wear the USAF-style combos because of the hassle or a dislike for C&C is based on nothing but your personal anecdotal observation and I say it is nonsense.

Well, you're right that it is my personal anecdotal observation, but since you seem to agree with me that civilian "uniforms" are beginning to dominate CAP, what is YOUR explanation? 

[AirAux]

In response to Eclipse, I have to join with SARDOC.  Have you looked at our National Website lately?  There is no mention of Air Force Auxiliary anywhere and the Aircraft all say Civil Air Patrol.  It would appear that the association with the Air Force is at least being downplayed.  I know who is paying the bills and I have mucho strong ties with the Air Force and that is why I joined so many moons ago, but somehow we have allowed our association with the Air Force to fall to the side.  Is this a good thing?  I don't think so, but I am an old fart and so set in my ways.  Perhaps it is a new day and I don't see the overall picture.  Be that as it may, why do we wear anything resembling the Air Force uniform if we are no longer associated with it?  Why not have our own Civil Air Patrol uniform?  Speaking of customers, if you are flying on counter narcotics for some of our "customers" you can't wear a uniform at all.  How about those apples?  Who and what are we??   

[Senty7]

Besides... your "Customer" on a SAR mission is the USAF... AFRCC at Tyndall is paying the bills.

No.  Your "customer" on a SAR mission is the missing subject and his or her family.  When SAR people forget that simple fact, things start to go higgledy-piggledy in a hurry.

The USAF is a stakeholder in the who, what, and how of product delivery. 

--Senty

[AirAux]

Unfortunately that may not be true.  When a mission is called off, it is based on the POD, probability (percentage?) of detection, which is determined by CAP charts probably provided by the Air Force, and not the missing subject.  The customer of a mortuary is the grieving family and not the deceased.  Our customer on counter narcotics is the LE we are working for and not the marijuana patch or the perp on the ground.  Customer and object are not interchangeable.  One is who we work for and one is what we are looking for or doing while we are working.  The missing one is not responsible for paying the bill for the mission..  Although I think there may have been cases when a bill may have been presented.  Not to thwart your enthusiasm, but there is much more to the program than dogged dedication to mission goals..