So why do we have height and weight standards?

[Eclipse]

Let's separate the truly disabled from those who simply choose to eat whatever they want.

The number of members in CAP who have thyroid issues, are in wheelchairs because of non-obesity-related issues, or other exceptions, would be treated as such, exceptions.

Blindness and deafness are not excuses for obesity, which for the vast (pun intended) majority of affected Americans and CAP members is a lifestyle choice, not a syndrome dictated by a disease.

Senior members could be categorized like cadets, including permanent waivers for those medically disabled.

I would be strongly in favor of a PT-based qualification system for the wear of USAF uniforms, or PT as an alternative for those off the charts (i.e. pop the weight chart?  No problem, do this run, etc.)

[manfredvonrichthofen]

My view is pretty much as Eclipse stated, you can get waivers for pretty much any kind of disability. Yes, I can understand someone who is legally blind (in both eyes) having a waiver not to a PT test. Someone who is wheelchair bound, or anyone putting on weight that they cannot control due to medical problems, especially chemotherapy and things of the like. There are many reasons that there would be a waiver. I don't think that the PT test should necessarily be a one or two mile run, I think something such as a one mile timed event that can be completed at a brisk walk, something that we can just asses that a person who will be working in the field would be able to sustain them self long enough to be able to get them self to safety. For aircrew, the need is there because if they are in a crash, that could be in the middle of nowhere, they need to be able to sustain them selves. I admit, thinking that anyone who will be strictly in base ops probably doesn't need to have a passed PT test, but if that person doesn't have a passed PT test or a waiver, then the command should look at the situation and determine whether that person would be a use or a hindrance in the field if there were an emergency to come up while on a mission.

[arBar]

That is about as likely as me getting THIS letter:

Kack:

I saw your picture on Facebook, and you look like a neat guy.  I have split from my husband, and am feeling a little lonely right now.  Maybe you could give me a call and we could hook up for dinner and drinks sometime soon?


Love,


Christie Brinkley.

PS:  My treat!

That's funny.  My neighbor about 15 years ago worked for the local ritzy hotel when Brinkley stayed there with her hubby Billy Joel.  He said that Joel was drunk in the room and his wife was bored out of her mind, so she asked my friend to show her around town.  So he spent the day with Christie Brinkley, acting as her private tour guide.  He said they had a great time, but nobody ever believes him.  Kinda like that character in the movie "Contact".  Had this amazing experience but but nobody believed her.

[JohnKachenmeister]

You REALLY know how to hurt, don't you?

[jimmydeanno]

look out the window of an airplane

There is a very real impact on air operations with heavier people.  The heavier the load, the less time the aircraft can stay in the air.  If the aircrew exceeds the maximum weight for the aircraft then the crew may have to go up with one person short or new aircrew members may need to be mixed in.  So, someone's weight can have a detrimental impact on our flying mission. 

work or lead a ground team

There is also a real need for ground team members and leaders to be fit enough.  While their leadership abilities aren't changed based on their shape, if they aren't physically able to walk the needed distance, etc the mission could fail.  This also includes those with medical disabilities. 

[cap235629]

Let's separate the truly disabled from those who simply choose to eat whatever they want.

The number of members in CAP who have thyroid issues, are in wheelchairs because of non-obesity-related issues, or other exceptions, would be treated as such, exceptions.

Blindness and deafness are not excuses for obesity, which for the vast (pun intended) majority of affected Americans and CAP members is a lifestyle choice, not a syndrome dictated by a disease.

Senior members could be categorized like cadets, including permanent waivers for those medically disabled.

I would be strongly in favor of a PT-based qualification system for the wear of USAF uniforms, or PT as an alternative for those off the charts (i.e. pop the weight chart?  No problem, do this run, etc.)

Once again your ignorance abounds.  You have not figured in things like a genetic predisposition. I have battled being overweight all of my life. Even when I was in the Army I gained weight, even when on a doctor supervised diet and exercise program. I could score over 250 on the APFT and I was still fighting the weight limits. I had to tape every time and failed the tape most of the time, but was still scoring above 200 on the APFT.  I suffered an injury, was on profile for almost a year and the weight kept coming. I am a disabled VETERAN and have recently undergone gastric bypass surgery to treat my morbid obesity that was the result of many factors, none of which was my inability to push away from the table.

I only share this because I want to point out the arrogance and ignorance of your comments.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Once again your ignorance abounds.  You have not figured in things like a genetic predisposition. I have battled being overweight all of my life. Even when I was in the Army I gained weight, even when on a doctor supervised diet and exercise program. I could score over 250 on the APFT and I was still fighting the weight limits. I had to tape every time and failed the tape most of the time, but was still scoring above 200 on the APFT.  I suffered an injury, was on profile for almost a year and the weight kept coming. I am a disabled VETERAN and have recently undergone gastric bypass surgery to treat my morbid obesity that was the result of many factors, none of which was my inability to push away from the table.

I only share this because I want to point out the arrogance and ignorance of your comments.

You should go back and read the posts again.

Let's separate the truly disabled from those who simply choose to eat whatever they want.

The number of members in CAP who have thyroid issues, are in wheelchairs because of non-obesity-related issues, or other exceptions, would be treated as such, exceptions.

I would be strongly in favor of a PT-based qualification system for the wear of USAF uniforms, or PT as an alternative for those off the charts (i.e. pop the weight chart?  No problem, do this run, etc.)

As you stated, you have never had the problem with the APFT. So what is it that you don't understand? If you have a problem that has nothing to do with food, fine, then lets get you a waiver, and lets see what you can do for a PT test. I am not saying you should be required to perform a mile run in under 7 minutes, but a one mile walk in 14 or 15 minutes, if you so choose to run during the test, then fine.

There should just be something that we do to mitigate risk, I would think that ORM would have the question, "Is every team member physically ready and capable to perform the mission?"

[ol'fido]

ALRIGHT, who has the beating a dead horse graphic and why ain't you USING it!!!

[DakRadz]

ALRIGHT, who has the beating a dead horse graphic and why ain't you USING it!!!

Sir, I apologize. Punctuality has never been my most redeeming feature. But better late than never!

[PHall]

ALRIGHT, who has the beating a dead horse graphic and why ain't you USING it!!!

Because it's more fun to use the "Beating a Dead Senior Member" graphic, that's why.

[ol'fido]

Dak, you are forgiven but please don't let it happen again.

PHall, you can't talk about the pilots like that.

[Bluelakes 13]

" So why do we have height and weight standards?"

So they can be dutifully ignored by many!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've said it before and am saying it again: seniors should all go to a single uniform, which, practically speaking, means non-USAF style.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am one of those restricted to the CAP rather than AF uniforms...but my point is not personal convenience, but uniformity.

Keep the military uniforms for the cadets.

Design a decent looking service jacket for seniors (corporate) that can be worn with insignia, badges, awards.

Use BBDUs, equivalent flight suit, and golf shirt where appropriate.

Give it a fairly long (5 year? 7 year?) phase in to make it less of a financial burden.

And declare an end to the 'uniform wars'!

IF it isn't something that looks like a mall security guard uniform, which is what I think of when I see the grey/whites.

It still foxes me that even the modifications that General Courter made to the CSU are not acceptable and we still have to scrap it.

Maybe if we'd go to wearing ROTC-type insignia and save the bars, leaves, chickens and stars for the BDU/BBDU/flight suit/utility suit?

http://www.armedforcesinsignia.com/?c=125

The Air Force is not going to change the H/W standards, and CAP doesn't have the authority to do so.

So it's up to us who are able to do so, to try and meet the H/W standards, and for those who cannot for whatever reason, to find a sharp-looking uniform that still gives an impression of the CAP's heritage.

[meganite]

Ok, I'll throw in my two cents on this conversation. I think someone earlier had a good point, that uniform is meant to be UNIFORM... I wish we just had one or two uniforms honestly. (Aren't there something like 5 or more? I don't remember, and it's too late for me to count. Sorry.) And the regulations are so complicated, I wish they'd simplify things a bit. (I imagine I'm echoing the sentiments of others here.)

Anyway, I don't have experience with Air Force stuff, so I just follow the example of others around me. I'm in a Senior squadron where most people wear the grey pants/polo shirt combination. I wear that even though I could theoretically wear any of the uniforms because 1) I don't really have the wherewithal to get together and correctly wear an Air Force uniform at the moment, and I'd be too embarrassed to wear it wrong. 2) It's a uniform, so I feel better if I'm wearing what everyone else wears. 3) It's cheaper 

I think the criticism that the uniform differences single out the "heavier folks" COULD be true...I haven't seen it myself, but I don't really want to single anyone out. (Also, because uniforms should be... I dunno, uniform?) But at the same time, sometimes I feel bad that I'm not trying to look as spiffy as possible. However, most folks in my squadron who DO meet the weight/grooming standards still wear the polo shirt. (Maybe for the same reasons, I don't know.) Appearances don't necessarily indicate character. They know what they're doing, get the job done, teach and train new members, and fully embody the core values of CAP: Integrity, Volunteer Service, Excellence, and Respect.

But anyway, I agree with manfredvonrichthofen and a couple others here who have said that it's not the Uniform/ability to keep the standards that matters, but the abilities of the people, and their invaluable skills in supporting this organization. 

(And for the record, I'm at about the minimum healthy weight for my height. Donate now to help feed this starving college student! )

[AirAux]

I believe that this article which is quoted from the Army Times will shed some new light on the situation.  If 20-45 year olds that are the best of the best can't cut it, how can our diverse group be expected too?

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/health/us-soldiers-turn-to-diet-pills-liposuction-to-meet-weight-standards-ncxdc-120810

[manfredvonrichthofen]

(And for the record, I'm at about the minimum healthy weight for my height. Donate now to help feed this starving college student! )

I used to be right there with you while I was in the Army. I was always under minimum weight limit. I am 5'11" and have been since I was 17, until I met my wife, the heaviest I have ever been was 130, usually I was right around 120. My point of this... Get married to a beautiful girl who can cook like a Goddess! They will keep you right. Mine keeps me at about 190 with a slight gut.

I believe that this article which is quoted from the Army Times will shed some new light on the situation.  If 20-45 year olds that are the best of the best can't cut it, how can our diverse group be expected too?

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/health/us-soldiers-turn-to-diet-pills-liposuction-to-meet-weight-standards-ncxdc-120810

You realize that is FOX NEWS right? I don't believe anything they say unless I can see where they got their info. I still have access to AKO, and I have never seen anything of the sort there that shows any study about soldiers getting lipo. Also, they didn't provide any sort of confirmation as to who these soldiers are that are getting liposuction, if these are real soldiers, I can understand not putting a name to them, but I also know that most soldiers that don't want information about themselves to get out won't talk to the media about any of it.

It is not hard to stay within regulation in regards to weight. All you need to do is do the PT that your unit is SUPPOSED TO DO every morning. I somewhat cringe when I say that, because I know that some units don't do PT every morning as they are supposed to. I knew a couple of soldiers who didn't pass weight and tape, that is because they were kind of hefty to begin with because they had wives that could cook much better food than any single soldier was going to get from the DFAC, or better than I was getting from my ex-wife who could cook something that raccoons and skunks wouldn't eat. The reason they had a hard time with their weight was compounded because instead of doing the standard PT they would go to the gym and do failure drills with weights that I wouldn't touch. Doing that kind of body work while already being at a higher weight will cause muscle to build under the fat making it worse by not burning enough of the fat. After going back to doing the prescribed PT regimen for overweight soldiers and a modest diet, they were all back into regulation within two weeks, not to mention they had abs that I was really jealous of.

[AirAux]

You do realize that I noted that Fox News tied this to the Army Times don't you?  If you are too biased to accept Fox News then try:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/12/army-extreme-weight-loss-120510w/


And it's enough of a problem for active duty for them to worry about it, so let's lighten up on CAP'ers.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

AD/Guard/Reservists can face disciplinary measures under the UCMJ for being out of military weight standards (why most of them don't is a mystery to me).

We aren't under the UCMJ, so the only "carrot and stick" approach the USAF has is to tell us civilian paramilitary volunteers that if you're over the limit, you can't wear the AF uniform...but I agree that the approach is way too rigid, especially given that the USCG doesn't have such limits for its Auxiliary (not sure about the US Navy Sea Cadets) and, as many have stated, in some cases obesity is a genetic condition which often shows up later in life.

Do you remember Ann Wilson from the group Heart? Great, great singer. Old pix of her from the '70s show her as slim and svelte as her guitarist sister Nancy.  However, in the mid-'80s that obesity gene started kicking in (I remember her being interviewed about it) and she is now quite heavy, and it's not her fault.

There are more people afflicted with that than we probably realise.

[RiverAux]

To some extent I think the height/weight standards are becoming a nonfactor due to the increasing numbers in which senior members choose to wear the civilian uniforms such as the golf shirt even those who could wear AF style.  If no one wants to wear a AF uniform it won't matter. 

The important uniform fight in CAP is not AF vs corporate style military uniforms it is military vs non-military style and military is losing.  Even if we dropped AF style and went to a corporate only military uniform the golf shirts are still winning. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Why is military losing?