Where to find white on blue patches?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

During testing is a different animal altogether. We did the same thing. However there were evidently personnel that did that very thing full time. We did have one kid who just got his EIB after being in Iraq and getting his CIB and he decided to sew his EIB right on top of his CIB on his DCU. It looked weird and stuck out like a sore thumb. He got gigged for it and was told to remove it. So he did, but then came time for us to wear our class A, he had taken the pins off of his EIB and hot glued it to his CIB, his EIB was revoked due to what they called misrepresentation and defacing the award. I don't think they should have gone that far. They wanted to take his CIB also but could only take one award per incident, they would have to hit him again for the same offense but you can't get hit twice for one thing... They can't do that and they know it. I don't think they should have gone that drastic but they did what they thought they should and that is above my grade.

[Hawk200]

We did have one kid who just got his EIB after being in Iraq and getting his CIB and he decided to sew his EIB right on top of his CIB on his DCU.

It's also against the reg. If a CIB has been awarded, it's the badge worn.

....his EIB was revoked due to what they called misrepresentation and defacing the award. I don't think they should have gone that far.

I would agree, conditionally. If the guy just didn't know any better, talk to him, show him the reg, explain it. Now, if he took the attitude, "I earned them both, I'm gonna wear them!", then it was probably appropriate to revoke one of the awards.

The reasons behind why he had the both can be telling. If he took the EIB test just to get another badge to wear, that's not the best reason. If he took the test to have the second badge on record for points(even knowing he couldn't legally wear it), that would be different, and perfectly understandable.

As to 39-1 not allowing the wear of two badges that don't include an aviation badge, I don't care for the policy. I'd bet it was mirroring the "McPeak policy", if you didn't have an aviation badge then you could only wear one. It was insulting to those that weren't some kind of aircrew. It was changed very shortly after McPeak retired. Yeah, he did do some great things while in charge, but that wasn't one of them.

Second, the policies differing as to which uniform wears things a different way (or at all) is also inconsistent. Make the policies the same for blues or corporate. Can't think of examples at the moment, but I know there are inconsistencies. Eliminate the inconsistencies.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I would agree that uniforms should be equal across the board pertaining to the corporate and USAF style uniforms. The Field uniforms should be worn the same way as should the dress uniforms. However I think you should be allowed to wear any and all your skill badges on your field uniforms. While on the dress uniforms limit it to still having to fall below the top notch of the lapel but allow all your badges that will fit within that area. When that area is filled, you must choose one to the exclusion of the other.

[Trung Si Ma]

We did have one kid who just got his EIB after being in Iraq and getting his CIB and he decided to sew his EIB right on top of his CIB on his DCU.

It's also against the reg. If a CIB has been awarded, it's the badge worn.

Not unless it has changed recently.  Both are category one badges and you only wear one cat one badge.  I, and several of my friends, took off the CIB and put the EIB back on after a particular incident at Ft Carson in 1992.  Not for discussion here, but PM me and I'll explain it - I think that you'll agree with me.

....his EIB was revoked due to what they called misrepresentation and defacing the award. I don't think they should have gone that far.

I would agree, conditionally. If the guy just didn't know any better, talk to him, show him the reg, explain it. Now, if he took the attitude, "I earned them both, I'm gonna wear them!", then it was probably appropriate to revoke one of the awards.

The reasons behind why he had the both can be telling. If he took the EIB test just to get another badge to wear, that's not the best reason. If he took the test to have the second badge on record for points(even knowing he couldn't legally wear it), that would be different, and perfectly understandable.

There is a tremendous amount of pressure on Infantrymen to "qualify" with the EIB even if they already have the CIB in most infantry units.

[Hawk200]

However I think you should be allowed to wear any and all your skill badges on your field uniforms.

You've got to have a limit somewhere. I think the unofficial practice among some personnel in the Air Force of wearing a third badge on the pocket is a good idea. Two above the tape/ribbons, one on the pocket. Don't make it too busy. I wouldn't mind allowing a foreign badge above the nametape, but I think the limit of four total is appropriate. Just wear the stuff that is most applicable to what you're doing.

One issue I hear from some people that should be clarified is the concept of "exclusion to others." Some people think that it means that if you wear two badges (out of hypothetically four available, for example), that you can only wear those two on all of the uniforms you possess. The exclusion only applies to a single uniform. If you have four badges, you can wear two on one uniform and two different ones on a different uniform.

While on the dress uniforms limit it to still having to fall below the top notch of the lapel but allow all your badges that will fit within that area. When that area is filled, you must choose one to the exclusion of the other.

I don't have as much of a problem with the notch limitation as I do with the shirt/blouse collar limitation. 39-1 permits four wide on the coat, but only three on a shirt/blouse. With that limit, you're stuck either dropping a badge or dropping ribbons.

The Air Force permits four wide, even on shirts/blouses, or allows the wear of miniature ribbons. Either practice could mean the difference between dropping ribbons/badges, and being able to wear them all. Personally, I'd like the option to wear miniatures. It would reduce the amount of real estate, without reducing the number of ribbons

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Yes there is, I have both. There is an unwritten rule/law that you should wear your CIB if you have it instead of your EIB. That is just how it is seen in the Infantry world, however there is nothing that actually states that the CIB should be preferred over the EIB. While they are both of the same nature one is not the higher award to the other but only one may be worn at a time.

The most interesting thing to see is someone wearing the EMB (Expert Medic Badge) and the EIB at the same time, we had one guy who wore both and one other who had the CMB and CIB and wore both together. That was great knowing he was in your squad. He was a medic then went infantry. Though he had all four (EMB CMB EIB CIB) he never tried anything weird like wearing all four. The best thing about him was when you yelled MEDIC he couldn't get it out of his head to get there ASAP, he was a great asset.

Now so far as what they did to the other guy who did wear both EIB on top of his CIB, I can't bring myself to agree with what they did, however I can't disagree either. People should know the regulations and follow them. If there is a question ask before going ahead. Making your own decisions just based on "I want  to do this so I will and play dumb," is just negligent and looks bad on everyone. One reason we wore those hideous maroon epaulets  for a while. If everyone made an effort to know what the regs were then we wouldn't have so many problems with CAP-USAF relationships.

[Hawk200]

We did have one kid who just got his EIB after being in Iraq and getting his CIB and he decided to sew his EIB right on top of his CIB on his DCU.

It's also against the reg. If a CIB has been awarded, it's the badge worn.

Not unless it has changed recently.  Both are category one badges and you only wear one cat one badge.  I, and several of my friends, took off the CIB and put the EIB back on after a particular incident at Ft Carson in 1992.  Not for discussion here, but PM me and I'll explain it - I think that you'll agree with me.

You can PM me the story, I'd be curious to read it. As to the stipulation, I simply referenced AR 670-1(3 February 2005), page 297, para 29-17, b. (2) which states: Combat badges have precedence over special skill badges within the same group. For example, if an individual is authorized to wear the Combat Infantry badge and the Expert Infantry badge, the Combat Infantry badge is worn.

Even the example provided addresses the incident that manfred related to us.

....his EIB was revoked due to what they called misrepresentation and defacing the award. I don't think they should have gone that far.

I would agree, conditionally. If the guy just didn't know any better, talk to him, show him the reg, explain it. Now, if he took the attitude, "I earned them both, I'm gonna wear them!", then it was probably appropriate to revoke one of the awards.

The reasons behind why he had the both can be telling. If he took the EIB test just to get another badge to wear, that's not the best reason. If he took the test to have the second badge on record for points(even knowing he couldn't legally wear it), that would be different, and perfectly understandable.

There is a tremendous amount of pressure on Infantrymen to "qualify" with the EIB even if they already have the CIB in most infantry units.

I wasn't aware of that. My branch is Aviation, so I'm not familiar with the Infantry culture (and yes, I do consider it a different culture, there are distinct differences in how different functional branches of the Army operate.)

[Hawk200]

....People should know the regulations and follow them.

Agreed.

....If there is a question ask before going ahead.

Agreed, and something I advocate whenever I can.

....Making your own decisions just based on "I want  to do this so I will and play dumb," is just negligent and looks bad on everyone.

I can say "Hear! Hear!" on that one.

....If everyone made an effort to know what the regs were then we wouldn't have so many problems with CAP-USAF relationships.

I wouldn't say it's limited to just CAP, it's common across all the branches. Before ACUs, I would regularly see people wearing Air Force badges on BDUs that were specifically forbidden by the reg. Not just a CAP thing.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I completely agree Hawk, I am just stating that as it pertains to us, it is one of the problems we have in our organization. When the Army changed to ACUs there was also the problem that they didn't have the right name tapes, we were wearing the BDU style with velcro on the back. We were getting gigged all over the place for it. We were being told we can't wear those types of patches with the ACU. Even the DIV COMM stopped us and had a session with us. We told him that was what was issued to us, that is all they have. Then he got his ACUs and was in the same spot we were. Some times you can't help it. But other times it is just flat out an I don't care attitude. And that is what has to be stopped.

[Hawk200]

When the Army changed to ACUs there was also the problem that they didn't have the right name tapes, we were wearing the BDU style with velcro on the back. We were getting gigged all over the place for it. We were being told we can't wear those types of patches with the ACU. Even the DIV COMM stopped us and had a session with us.

That's a case of ignorance. The green tapes and patches were actually legal with the ACU for awhile (still might be, but I don't think so, would have to check).

It's also a perfect example as to why things need to be consolidated into pubs. Leaving stuff out there as change letters is a problem. For the uniform manual, the PDF should include all the uniform related change letters in the file until the manual gets rewritten. Too many people are just putting their things together by "looking at how someone else did it."

[SarDragon]

I think the amount of work involved in Phil's AF badges far exceeds the amount involved in his CAP badges.

YMMV.

Not relevant to the discussion and insulting to fellow members, especially characterized as such.

"I think" - my opinion. YMMV - subject to discussion.

I was talking about Phil's comment specifically, that he wears his RM badges, and not his CAP badges. I was making what I thought to be a reasonable guess as to his motivation for doing so.

Phil?

[Eclipse]

You're missing my point - there is no correlation or comparative value between CAP badges and military badges, or for that matter CAP badges and anything else.

They both represent a level of accomplishment, effort, and yes, honor, applicable only within their respective organizations.

Making the comment that one doesn't wear CAP badges on a CAP uniform to CAP activities because he worked for the military badges he wears instead is insulting to CAP members who put their time and effort into earning the only badges for which they are eligible.

I respect and appreciate military badges and service, but they are merely honorary when worn on a CAP uniform and generally irrelevant in regards to a respective member's abilities and qualifications in CAP, which is all I am interested in when I am reading your uniform's resume.

Seeing your jump wings and OEF ribbon tells me something about your history and character, and nothing about what you can do for me today.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Besides, Whatever badges you wear, your CAP badges should be in the position of honor.(On top of all others.)

[Hawk200]

Besides, Whatever badges you wear, your CAP badges should be in the position of honor.(On top of all others.)

That would be an oddball precedent. Military ribbons are worn above CAP ones, so wearing military badges above CAP ones is consistent. It gets screwy when you throw in CAP aviation badges, they're worn above anything else, except the chaplains insignia which is worn above even aviation badges.

It can be a little wierd at times, and with some badges it can look really strange if you're not used to it. The one example I can think of that looks really funny is a guy that had observer wings and a CIB. Wings above CIB looks strange considering Army personnel would wear those types of badges completely reversed. You deal with it, it's how it's worn on CAP uniforms, but it still looks a little strange.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

When it comes to RM most of the time if you go from one branch of the military to another such as Marines to the Army, ribbons get mingled into each other because they hold similar meanings as each others, except for higher awards such as the Silver and Bronze stars, flying cross and things of that sort. But if you have a Good Conduct medal from the Army and one From the Marines you wear the Marine Good Conduct Medal beneath the Army Good Conduct Medal Because you are now in the Army. However JROTC CAP and CGAUX all wear RM ribbons above their own, who knows why(if you know the real reason why please post it. If you are in the Army and you primary MOS was Combat Medic and you swapped to Infantry you would wear your Infantry Badge above your Medic Badge, and vise versa. So I would say you should   wear your GT Badge above your CIB or CMB because now you are Ground Team, not Infantry.

EDIT: Now please do understand I know that CAP ribbons do not hold the same precedence as RM ribbons.

[Hawk200]

Making the comment that one doesn't wear CAP badges on a CAP uniform to CAP activities because he worked for the military badges he wears instead is insulting to CAP members who put their time and effort into earning the only badges for which they are eligible.

How is it insulting? A person chooses one badge over another. What right do you have to decide what he feels to be more important?

Is a person that has a GT badge, a medical badge, and wings insulting one particular group of people if they choose not to wear the GT badge because they feel that they worked "harder" on their doctorate and their private pilot license?

CAP members work hard on the badges they're eligible for, I'll agree. It doesn't mean that everyone has to limit themselves to only the badges that their peers have. That is insulting. But there's also a flip side.

Now, I know that members have an option as to whether they may wear full color or subdued military badges. I have met a CAP member that felt since CAP members don't have subdued badges, then I should not be permitted wear of mine. He felt that if I really desired to wear my military badges that I should obtain them in the same blue/white colors that he had for his wings and badge. He also informed me that he felt that my badges were meaningless. I suggested that he take a scenic tour of Hades and like it.

I know that most CAP members aren't like that, but most people remember the ones that are. I seriously think that people should learn the what and why of badges, and simply respect the accomplishments without trying to decide "Mine's more important than theirs!"

I have a suspicion that I know a suggestion that's going to pop up eventually.

[davidsinn]

if you know the real reason why please post it.

This is just a guess: it would not be right in any way, shape, or form for the Congressional Medal of Honor to be in the middle of a rack. That's what would happen if you put CAP ribbons on top if a member was awarded that medal. I think CAP badges should go on top but RM ribbons should be on top for the reason I gave.

[MIKE]

... and CGAUX all wear RM ribbons above their own, ...

Not correct.  Military and CGAUX awards are intermixed in the order of precedence.  Weird isn't it?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

That is very easy to understand as I said certain ribbons do not get intermingled, but the rest do. Of course the CMOH would go above everything else. But everything else could be intermingled.

That is very interesting that CGAUX intermingles, I think it is the right thing to do.

[Hawk200]

If you are in the Army and you primary MOS was Combat Medic and you swapped to Infantry you would wear your Infantry Badge above your Medic Badge, and vise versa.

That may be a common practice, but it's not right (as in not compliant with regulation). 670-1 classifies badges, and sets the precendent. A CIB is supposed to be always worn above anything else. It's Group 1. CMB is a Group 2, so it would go below. Like I said, I know it may be common practice, but that's not how it should be done. If I was a recipient of a CIB/EIB in the past (hypothetically), I would still wear it above the Aviation Badge that covers my current career field.

As to whether or not you want to wear a CIB above or below your GT badge, that seems to be up to you. I couldn't find anything in 39-1 that says either way.