Beret confusion

[SPD6696]

I had the very distinct displeasure to wear a beret as a uniform item for  7+ years.  It is , without a doubt, the most useless piece of headwear I've ever used.  Is there a cool factor?  I suppose, to an extent, if you are a Francophile... 

They are hot.

They provide no protection from the rain, sun, snow.  Sunburned face, nose and ears are always fun.

If you don't know how to, or care to, shape, shave and wear one, you look even more ridiculous.

My personal preference is a ball cap or patrol cap.  Or, in the field, a boonie, if necessary.  I think the beret thing would go away if it were replaced with a permanent award, like a ribbon, or small patch for those that wish to share their training resume with others.  Throughout my 20+ year military career, I used a person's ribbons and badges to get an idea of their training level, experience, etc.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think the beret thing would go away if it were replaced with a permanent award, like a ribbon, or small patch for those that wish to share their training resume with others.  Throughout my 20+ year military career, I used a person's ribbons and badges to get an idea of their training level, experience, etc.

Ribbon: NCSA
Badge: Activity Patch

[SPD6696]

Well, there you go.  If they insist on a special hat, use a ball cap, like a squadron cap... 

[CAPC/officer125]

There is much opinion out there.

I went to Blue Beret (called National Special Service Corps at the time) in 1985 (India Flight); did 7 days at Volk Field, then convoy to Oshkosh where did 8 days (Total of 15 days).  It was tough (for the cadet program) at the time.  Cadre would come in for a 2am PT session, Got dropped for push ups on a regular basis, etc, etc, etc.  Upon completion, could wear the blue beret with the pickle uniform, had a blue shoulder cord for the blues.  I was out of CAP for 20 years, but I still kept the St. Alban's Cross and my original beret.  The skills I learned there (self-reliance, self-motivation) helped get me though fire academy and two police academies.  (Current Blue Beret is 14 days.)

Is there a correlation between Blue Beret and military beret – no.  Should there be – no.  However, in both cases, the beret (or special bling) represents the accomplishment of a feat of some type.  I would argue that any of the special  military berets awarded are not to recognize the completion of training, but rather to recognize that the person had the internal willingness and strength of character to complete said training.  I don't have a problem with "elite" units in the military, like some do.  I believe that while these units do make a contribution to the overall mission, their existence has a secondary purpose that is far greater than their special purpose – that is motivation.  Many, many, many soldiers, airmen, marines, and sailors have been motivated to work very hard to be selected for an elite unit.  Far more than are actually selected, but every last one of them has made a greater contribution to their home unit as a direct result of their striving for the elite unit.

In CAP, the people that attend BB, Hawk Mountain, Cadet Survival School, PJOC, etc, are typically more highly motivated to work harder, to strive for personal betterment, and, in turn, that makes for better home units.  Can we compare Blue Beret or Hawk Mountain or PJOC   to   Special Warfare or SEALS or Recon?  No.  But then you don't see and 13, 14, 15 year olds going through those either.  To me, when I went to BB, it was an experience because I made it through – I was proud.  To me, it was if I (15 at the time) had gone through my own version of special school.  I wasn't the 25-28 year old that was trying out for SOF, I didn't have that decade of experience.  Is it the same – no.  But, put it in the context of what it is (a harder-than-normal activity for YOUTH) and it is still special.  In my mind, I think there should be berets awarded at other activities – NESA, PJOC, Hawk (jsut off top of my head - not saying there aren't a couple of other schools out there that shouldn't have them).  These are truly the more demanding of NCSAs. And remember - these are kids.  What is not all that hard to us can be very difficult for them. 

Again, can we say they are the same as military – NO.  But to the cadet, they still represent something that is special to them.  And for THAT reason, we should keep them.  That beret, or bling, might be the reason a cadet went to that activity where they learned the self skills that enabled them to later earn the "real" one.     

This may be an argument that I don't need to get into, but I agree with this above post. I just completed NBB 2010 and am proud to wear the Blue Beret. To me, the beret is a symbol of the 2+ weeks we all spent together, in training and in operation at the EAA AirVenture.

While we may not be mentioned in literature about AirVenture, we are a big part of what goes on there. While I was doing security at the Warbirds re-enactment area, an old Spaatz cadet and his family (most of which had been in CAP) came up to me and asked me questions about the activity. It turns out that he and his wife both attended the activity when it was still just guarding corn fields, making sure nobody cut through. Now we marshal planes off the 9-27 runway and through a grass taxiway system, we record the tail numbers of planes landing on both the active runways, we search for ELTs and over due aircraft, we are the primary mode of security around the big jets in the Warbirds area, and we make sure people don't walk through the dead zone of the Ultralight runway. That is just what we do off compound. While on compound, the cadets are responsible for the upkeep of the facility and food and making sure no one is allowed in that shouldn't be.

In the video that we had to watch (every EAA volunteer had to watch it too), it stated that the CAP volunteers, with around 200 people, put in about twice the amount of service that the 300+ EAA volunteers put in. I don't know if they start that from when we arrive (which is a week before the show) or if that is just during the show, but that is still saying alot. One of the sayings that the EAA-to-CAP liaison guy had was "Every pilot, if not every person, here at EAA AirVenture interacts with a CAP cadet." I think that shows that magnitude that we have there.

As far as the wear of the beret, I am NOT an advocate of wearing it with both uniforms. We earned the Beret wearing our BDUs and it should be the only uniform to wear it in. I don't have a reg site for it, but I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings, but the wing commander has authority to prohibit wear of it at wing activities. One of the things that was said by all the returning berets, was that we should continue to wear our BDU cover on ES missions, as it is not practical to wear the beret on missions. I will always have my BDU cover with me whenever I wear that uniform, but I will also have my beret on me.

This years graduates had to go through more than most years. We had to accommodate our operations to the weather and we even had to do night-ops (a first for all berets) with the Jack Roush crash. We earned our berets like the rest of the berets, but we had a tough year.

IMHO, berets should not be outlawed, but they should only be restricted to wear with only the BDUs (as it is now). To every Blue Beret, the beret we wear is a symbol and a memory of the new family we made. It is also a symbol of the training we got (everyone who went this year, left UDF, FLM, and MRO qualified as well as almost GTM2 qualified) as well as a motivator to those who haven't gone to go. While the reason that people should go to NBB is not the beret, about half of the berets I know where first motivated by getting the beret and then realized that there is alot more to the beret and the activity than just getting the beret and were motivated to get the training and mission done, whether or not they earned a beret or not. The process of earning the beret is a tradition, which NBB is known for having a lot of traditions. I am proud to be a Blue Beret. I bet if you ask any beret, they will say they are proud and will even offer up the Blue Beret Creed (something that really shows you what we stand for and why we feel special).

C/Maj Pat Temaat
2010 NBB, India Flight "Fluffies"
"I Survived Sloshkosh"/"AquaVenture 2010" (this year was the wettest year in the history of the AirVenture)

[Eclipse]

For starters you didn't perform any "security" functions, since we are prohibited from doing that.

[Bluelakes 13]

I go off to encampment, and look at all the fun I miss   

My OP was a clarification on the regulation.  I stated my findings, I hoped people would cite more.  Apparently my citings stand.

I DID NOT want this to become an essay on the quality of events, particularly when one falls in my AOR.

Speaking of encampment, I did see both cadets and seniors with berets and Hawk tabs in/on their woodland BDU.  I made a note to the Commander and to the PAO to avoid them in photos.

"but I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings," 

That's a joke, right?   

[tsrup]

For starters you didn't perform any "security" functions, since we are prohibited from doing that.

"Surveillance" would be closer to the truth.

But "Security" sounds cooler and more official right?

[Eclipse]

"Surveillance" is also a law enforcement function.

The proper term is observation.  What we try to make members understand is that whether it's a crash site or a flight line, if someone chooses to walk past them, they have no recourse but to yell and point.

Anything else is against regulations and in many cases the law.

[tsrup]

"Surveillance" is also a law enforcement function.

The proper term is observation.  What we try to make members understand is that whether it's a crash site or a flight line, if someone chooses to walk past them, they have no recourse but to yell and point.

Anything else is against regulations and in many cases the law.

ref: O-0802 and O-0803, seems like surveillance was the appropriate term.  You and I are in agreement, we're just arguing semantics at this point.

[Short Field]

everyone who went this year, left UDF, FLM, and MRO qualified as well as almost GTM2 qualified

Not quite everyone.  Must have one of the slugs assigned to my unit.  The following were signed off:

UDF:  All tasks signed off with two missions completed.  Still needs to complete ICS 100 & 700.
MRO:  All tasks signed off with two missions completed.  Still needs ICS 100 & 700.
FLM:   no fam/prep tasks and two advanced tasks (BCUT & Basic Comm Procedures) signed off.
GTM-3:  two fam/prep tasks and seven advanced tasks (including BCUT & Basic Comm Procedures) signed off.
GTM-2:  one advanced task signed off.

It looks like all the task sign offs were batch processed and overwrote existing Ops Quals  SQTR task completion dates. 

[Bluelakes 13]

Were all the fam/prep tasks completed BEFORE the advance tasks were signed off?

[lordmonar]

Were all the fam/prep tasks completed BEFORE the advance tasks were signed off?

Not necessarily required.  A lot of tasks cross over from one rating to the other.  E-services does not care if you have gotten any other sign offs before it certifies the tasks.

So long as missions are not sighed off before the FAM/PREP tasks are completed....I don't see a problem.

[JayT]

This may be an argument that I don't need to get into, but I agree with this above post. I just completed NBB 2010 and am proud to wear the Blue Beret. To me, the beret is a symbol of the 2+ weeks we all spent together, in training and in operation at the EAA AirVenture.

But doesn't the ribbon, patch, qualifications, pictures, videos, phone numbers, and emails you also received accomplish the same thing without a hat that makes you look different from everyone else?

While we may not be mentioned in literature about AirVenture, we are a big part of what goes on there. While I was doing security at the Warbirds re-enactment area, an old Spaatz cadet and his family (most of which had been in CAP) came up to me and asked me questions about the activity. It turns out that he and his wife both attended the activity when it was still just guarding corn fields, making sure nobody cut through. Now we marshal planes off the 9-27 runway and through a grass taxiway system, we record the tail numbers of planes landing on both the active runways, we search for ELTs and over due aircraft, we are the primary mode of security around the big jets in the Warbirds area, and we make sure people don't walk through the dead zone of the Ultralight runway. That is just what we do off compound. While on compound, the cadets are responsible for the upkeep of the facility and food and making sure no one is allowed in that shouldn't be.

I'm glad you did your jobs well.

As far as the wear of the beret, I am NOT an advocate of wearing it with both uniforms. We earned the Beret wearing our BDUs and it should be the only uniform to wear it in. I don't have a reg site for it, but I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings, but the wing commander has authority to prohibit wear of it at wing activities. One of the things that was said by all the returning berets, was that we should continue to wear our BDU cover on ES missions, as it is not practical to wear the beret on missions. I will always have my BDU cap with me whenever I wear that uniform, but I will also have my beret on me.

So should COS grads not wear the COS patch on BDU's? I don't really understand what the uniform has to do with the activity. Also, squadron commanders have complete authority over uniforms. If they tell you no beret, it's no beret. If they tell you squadron cap instead of patrol cap, it's squadron cap. A Cadet Major should know that.

IMHO, berets should not be outlawed, but they should only be restricted to wear with only the BDUs (as it is now). To every Blue Beret, the beret we wear is a symbol and a memory of the new family we made. It is also a symbol of the training we got (everyone who went this year, left UDF, FLM, and MRO qualified as well as almost GTM2 qualified) as well as a motivator to those who haven't gone to go. While the reason that people should go to NBB is not the beret, about half of the berets I know where first motivated by getting the beret and then realized that there is alot more to the beret and the activity than just getting the beret and were motivated to get the training and mission done, whether or not they earned a beret or not. The process of earning the beret is a tradition, which NBB is known for having a lot of traditions. I am proud to be a Blue Beret. I bet if you ask any beret, they will say they are proud and will even offer up the Blue Beret Creed (something that really shows you what we stand for and why we feel special).

I guess my biggest issue with the beret was always that I never understood why you need a symbol so different from the gear everyone else is wearing to feel 'special' or to 'remind you of your family.' If it was that intense of training, or that memorable of an experience, the patch, ribbon, and badges you earned so do it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings, but the wing commander has authority to prohibit wear of it at wing activities.

In that case it's time to shut down the activity...

[N Harmon]

For starters you didn't perform any "security" functions, since we are prohibited from doing that.

We may be prohibited from performing some "security" functions, like enforcing laws. But there is a whole lot which falls under "security" that simply involves guiding people away and around unsafe areas:

"Sir, that's a dangerous area to walk through, please go around."

"Ma'am, you'll need to extinguish that cigar while they fuel that aircraft over there."


And as for NBB just being an airshow...I guess it's a favorite past time for those who've never been to knock its importance. The fact is it IS a significant ES mission that involves silencing a lot of ELTs, and processing a lot of unclosed flight plans (aka missing aircraft). Without NBB, that airshow would present an enormous burden on Wisconsin Wing. And as far as CAP not showing up in videos and literature, nobody cares. The EAA appreciates us, and goes to great lengths to see to it we're taken care of.


-- NBB '97 & '99

[CAPC/officer125]

With the comment about squadron commanders not having control of wearing the beret, that was only something I heard. I am searching the regs for it and since your reactions tell me that it is probably not there, I will refer to asking the squadron commander if he has a problem with me wearing it. (I regularly attend meetings at a different squadron then the one I am attached)

I know we all got patches, ribbons, numbers, emails, etc from all the activities we go to, however, how often do you stay in contact with the people you meet through NCSAs or encampment? Most of the time, I bet, it is only for the first month or so than it goes away. Most, if not all, NSCAs have a patch, and you get the NCSA ribbon to go with it. You "earn" those by just graduating the program, it is not something you could lose. And by lose I mean you still graduate and can wear the patch and ribbon, but your beret is taken away from you.

I am a Blue Beret. I am my country and Civil Air Patrol expect me to be. The best of American youth and an example of leadership for today and the future.
Never will I fail that trust.
Therefore, I pledge to perform to the highest degree of professionalism. My dedication to the service of others, rendered with humility and respect, is the outward sign of this pledge.
I am a leader who exhibits the highest level of integrity and is dedicated to the well being of my comrades and community.
I understand that to wear a Blue Beret is a great honor.
Therefore, I forsake not:
My Country;
My Mission;
My Comrades;
My Duty.
I am a Blue Beret. FOLLOW ME.

That is the creed all of us are expected to know. We said it everyday in some fashion or another and I believe it shows why we feel we are so special. I am not saying we are special, that we deserve special treatment, but we do thing that other activities don't (I know there are other activities that do stuff we don't) and deserve credit for it.

One thing that just crossed my mind: every NCSA has a way to distinguish themselves. It seems, though, that most people decide to "pick on" the ones that the most noticeable (i.e. Beret and Hawk). We all earn an NCSA ribbon for going to our select NCSA, but everybody that went to that activity will know at a glance who has been there and who has not. I may not be making sense, but if you think about it, it makes sense. A COS grad can pick out another just by looking at the Mitchell ribbon, a ranger can pick out another ranger, and a beret can pick out a beret. Everyone wants to be noticed for something, that is why we do the stuff we do.

[SJFedor]

(snippity snip) Everyone wants to be noticed for something, that is why we do the stuff we do.

And that may be part of the problem. People aren't doing it because it needs to be done, or because they enjoy it, but because they want to be noticed w/ some form of special "bling".

[lordmonar]

I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings, but the wing commander has authority to prohibit wear of it at wing activities.

Absolutely wrong!

The NB decision simply says that it does not require any other authorisation to wear it.

You squadron CC say "take off the hat" you take off the hat!  Simple end of story.

If you want to wear it....and barring any other guidance from the chain of command you may do so.

[Майор Хаткевич]

One thing that just crossed my mind: every NCSA has a way to distinguish themselves. It seems, though, that most people decide to "pick on" the ones that the most noticeable (i.e. Beret and Hawk). We all earn an NCSA ribbon for going to our select NCSA, but everybody that went to that activity will know at a glance who has been there and who has not. I may not be making sense, but if you think about it, it makes sense. A COS grad can pick out another just by looking at the Mitchell ribbon, a ranger can pick out another ranger, and a beret can pick out a beret. Everyone wants to be noticed for something, that is why we do the stuff we do.

Yep, they all distinguish themselves. They all (most?) get a patch and a ribbon. Some may give an extra item like a tiny device for a ribbon, or a cord to be worn with blues - most do not. What separated COS and HGA from Hawk and Blue Beret? The items they issue do not destroy uniformity unless you get to within 3 feet. I can spot a Beret or a PAWGer from about a quarter mile (I'm near sighted).

[Major Carrales]

"Surveillance" is also a law enforcement function.

The proper term is observation.  What we try to make members understand is that whether it's a crash site or a flight line, if someone chooses to walk past them, they have no recourse but to yell and point.

Anything else is against regulations and in many cases the law.

I would call it "passive situational awareness," sometime the presence is enough to deter the unsavory.