New CAWG Ground Team & UDF Uniform

[Major Carrales]

These concepts beought forth here must be wreaking havoc with those people that want us to have subdued nametapes.   

Not really. The idea behind wanting subdued tapes with white lettering is because it doesn't look gaudy like the ultramarine tapes do.

uh...and a ridiculous ORANGE shirt invoking "chain gangs" won't do that.  (sorry, that was a cheap shot...but I really don't care one way or the other about this item.  My point was more a criticism of UNIFORM threads in general and how no one stands a chance to get these agendas across because there are likely an equal number of people that "hate" everything that wasn't their idea.)

[Rotorhead]

Anyone have a clue as to why CA EMA wants this?

The majority of non CAP ground SAR teams in CA wear the orange shirt and the BDUs have been a source of conflict when working with those teams.

Why?

[RiverAux]

I'll second that question.  Seeing as how most CAP members around the country seem to work pretty well with the local while wearing our standard uniform I'm not sure how any "conflict" can solely be based upon the uniform. 

[shorning]

I'll second that question.  Seeing as how most CAP members around the country seem to work pretty well with the local while wearing our standard uniform I'm not sure how any "conflict" can solely be based upon the uniform.

Who said it was solely based on the uniform?  There could have been other issues and the "uniform" could have been the leverage.  Politics and/or pettiness happen outside of CAP too...

[RiverAux]

I'll second that question.  Seeing as how most CAP members around the country seem to work pretty well with the local while wearing our standard uniform I'm not sure how any "conflict" can solely be based upon the uniform.

Who said it was solely based on the uniform?  There could have been other issues and the "uniform" could have been the leverage.  Politics and/or pettiness happen outside of CAP too...

Thats my point.  I can certainly see CAP members and locals getting crossways over a lot of things, but don't see any way that our uniforms could have been a factor as was suggested in an earlier post. 

[shorning]

I'll second that question.  Seeing as how most CAP members around the country seem to work pretty well with the local while wearing our standard uniform I'm not sure how any "conflict" can solely be based upon the uniform.

Who said it was solely based on the uniform?  There could have been other issues and the "uniform" could have been the leverage.  Politics and/or pettiness happen outside of CAP too...

Thats my point.  I can certainly see CAP members and locals getting crossways over a lot of things, but don't see any way that our uniforms could have been a factor as was suggested in an earlier post.

Methinks you're being intentionally dense.  I've read enough of your posts that I would presume you could hypothizie how that might come about...

...unless you're just trying to stir the pot...

[RiverAux]

No, I really can't think of a single reason for our uniforms to get the locals mad at us. 

Now, if you're talking about CAP members trying to throw their officer "weight" around, that is a whole different thing that has very little to do with the uniforms themselves.  Some CAP Lt. Col. that is likely to try to tell some county deputy what to do based on their CAP rank is going to try to do that whether they've got leaves on their collar or not.   

[shorning]

No, I really can't think of a single reason for our uniforms to get the locals mad at us. 

Now, if you're talking about CAP members trying to throw their officer "weight" around, that is a whole different thing that has very little to do with the uniforms themselves.  Some CAP Lt. Col. that is likely to try to tell some county deputy what to do based on their CAP rank is going to try to do that whether they've got leaves on their collar or not.

That's the point...the issue ain't about the uniform...that was just the "tool" used to not allow CAP to play.  Heck, a SD could have just as easily ding a unit for not having 4x4's to do SAR work.  After all...a 12 pax van?  Really?  But I digress...

[RiverAux]

Then altering our uniforms won't make a bit of difference.  Those sheriffs who don't like CAP aren't going to be any more likely to use CAP now than they were before.  They have no need to make up excuses like "they're in camo uniforms and it will be hard to maintain a search line".  They have total authority to just say, "No, I don't want to use them". 

That being the case there doesn't appear to have been any real need to make this change.

Until such time as they make National Guard troops switch to orange shirts while on SARs, I see no reason we need to.  Our orange vests are a more than reasonable approach to visibility issues. 

[PHall]

Then altering our uniforms won't make a bit of difference.  Those sheriffs who don't like CAP aren't going to be any more likely to use CAP now than they were before.  They have no need to make up excuses like "they're in camo uniforms and it will be hard to maintain a search line".  They have total authority to just say, "No, I don't want to use them". 

That being the case there doesn't appear to have been any real need to make this change.

Until such time as they make National Guard troops switch to orange shirts while on SARs, I see no reason we need to.  Our orange vests are a more than reasonable approach to visibility issues.

We really don't do many search lines in California. There's very little level ground that isn't covered by developments or farm fields. And it's pretty hard to hide behind a head of lettice.

[PA Guy]

Then altering our uniforms won't make a bit of difference.  Those sheriffs who don't like CAP aren't going to be any more likely to use CAP now than they were before.  They have no need to make up excuses like "they're in Cami uniforms and it will be hard to maintain a search line".  They have total authority to just say, "No, I don't want to use them". 

That being the case there doesn't appear to have been any real need to make this change.

Until such time as they make National Guard troops switch to orange shirts while on SA Rs, I see no reason we need to.  Our orange vests are a more than reasonable approach to visibility issues.

National Guard ground troops aren't utilized in CA for SAR, only the aviation assets.  When CAARNG troops go on fire duty they wear the wildland firefighters ensemble.

The BDU uniform is perceived as a negative by the sheriff's ground teams.  It is seen by them as enhancing the wannabe image and this is further reinforced when we pull up in the proverbial white van and a bunch of 4ft tall cadets pile out looking like they bought out the local army surplus stores.

There have been instances where the wearing of grade has created confusion or has been abused, thus no grade on the orange shirt.  CAP personnel have been verbally abused with comments like, "hey can I be a general too" etc.

The Orange shirt was originated in CAWG approx. 20 yrs ago.  It was an attempt to bring CAP ground teams closer to the sheriff's ground teams.  I guess you could say a more collegial relationship.  CAP ground teams are not the pros from Dover when it comes to ground ops in CA.

Most of the sheriff's ground teams in CA have training, equipment and resources CAP could only dream about.  Compared to some of the SAR teams I have encountered around the country, particularly in the SE, CA is a galaxy away by comparison.  They are trained in NIMS/ICS, most require a NASAR cert. and most are Mountain Rescue Assoc. qualified.  They have vehicles appropriate to the area and access to aviation assets CAP would drool over.  How may CAP units have their own Sikorsky H-3 to airlift their ground teams? The point is if CAWG ground teams want to play they need to gain some acceptance and  try to fit in and this shirt has been shown to help.

Now you can be as obtuse as you like and approve or not approve or not see the logic it doesn't really matter and the reasons for this change have been explained over and over. Or better yet, come on out and hike a mile in our boots.

[PHall]

Then altering our uniforms won't make a bit of difference.  Those sheriffs who don't like CAP aren't going to be any more likely to use CAP now than they were before.  They have no need to make up excuses like "they're in Cami uniforms and it will be hard to maintain a search line".  They have total authority to just say, "No, I don't want to use them". 

That being the case there doesn't appear to have been any real need to make this change.

Until such time as they make National Guard troops switch to orange shirts while on SA Rs, I see no reason we need to.  Our orange vests are a more than reasonable approach to visibility issues.

National Guard ground troops aren't utilized in CA for SAR, only the aviation assets.  When CAARNG troops go on fire duty they wear the wildland firefighters ensemble.

The BDU uniform is perceived as a negative by the sheriff's ground teams.  It is seen by them as enhancing the wannabe image and this is further reinforced when we pull up in the proverbial white van and a bunch of 4ft tall cadets pile out looking like they bought out the local army surplus stores.

There have been instances where the wearing of grade has created confusion or has been abused, thus no grade on the orange shirt.  CAP personnel have been verbally abused with comments like, "hey can I be a general too" etc.

The Orange shirt was originated in CAWG approx. 20 yrs ago.  It was an attempt to bring CAP ground teams closer to the sheriff's ground teams.  I guess you could say a more collegial relationship.  CAP ground teams are not the pros from Dover when it comes to ground ops in CA.

Most of the sheriff's ground teams in CA have training, equipment and resources CAP could only dream about.  Compared to some of the SAR teams I have encountered around the country, particularly in the SE, CA is a galaxy away by comparison.  They are trained in NIMS/ICS, most require a NASAR cert. and most are Mountain Rescue Assoc. qualified.  They have vehicles appropriate to the area and access to aviation assets CAP would drool over.  How may CAP units have their own Sikorsky H-3 to airlift their ground teams? The point is if CAWG ground teams want to play they need to gain some acceptance and  try to fit in and this shirt has been shown to help.

Now you can be as obtuse as you like and approve or not approve or not see the logic it doesn't really matter and the reasons for this change have been explained over and over. Or better yet, come on out and hike a mile in our boots.

And the kicker is that most of the Sheriff Ground Teams are Reserve Deputies. They're volunteers who get paid $1.00 a year.
Yeah they get a badge, but they usually pay for their uniforms and their personal equipment. Sound familiar???
But they get way more training then we get and they get to use much better equipment then we have too.

The things we as CAP can offer are fixed wing aircraft with DF and Photo capabilities and Ground Teams that know how to DF.
And we usually have more experience in aircraft searches while they are much better at missing hiker searches.
So we do tend to compliment each others skills.

So it's in our best interest to make nice because they can tell us to go home and there ain't a whole lot we can do about it.

[RiverAux]

The BDU uniform is perceived as a negative by the sheriff's ground teams.  It is seen by them as enhancing the wannabe image and this is further reinforced when we pull up in the proverbial white van and a bunch of 4ft tall cadets pile out looking like they bought out the local army surplus stores.

There have been instances where the wearing of grade has created confusion or has been abused, thus no grade on the orange shirt.  CAP personnel have been verbally abused with comments like, "hey can I be a general too" etc.

So, rather than address the ACTUAL problem, which would seem to be the lack of respect for the abilities of cadets we have trained in ground SAR or senior members who think they can get away with telling someone in other agencies what to do, our approach is to try to make cosmetic changes in our appearance?

With that line of reasoning no wonder CA Wing hasn't been successful in doing much SAR work with the locals.

[Pumbaa]

So, rather than address the ACTUAL problem, which would seem to be the lack of respect for the abilities of cadets we have trained in ground SAR or senior members who think they can get away with telling someone in other agencies what to do, our approach is to try to make cosmetic changes in our appearance?

With that line of reasoning no wonder CA Wing hasn't been successful in doing much SAR work with the locals.

And thus the 'dysfunctionality' of CAP that has festered into an open sore over the years. NY has the same problem.

As someone who was a cadet in the 70's I have become disappointed in what CAP has become.  Time to set down my bars...

[N Harmon]

So, local SAR teams in California have people, equipment, and resources far and wide greater than what CAP provides. Great! They don't need CAP assistance, so why are we bending over backwards to give it to them? It seems like CAP is trying desperately to fit into a already crowded party, and is sacrifices too much to do so.

And how far is CAP willing to go to capitulate to locals? If tomorrow someone start remarking that Civil Air Patrol uses the word "Patrol" in their name, and that makes them wannabes of the highway patrol; is CAP then going to order removal of CAP tapes from the ground team uniform?  The CAWG GT uniform already prohibits military badges; if CAP badges are seen as too militaristic and causes remarks from locals, will those be next to be removed from the uniform?

I sometimes think CAP needs to evaluate where it can be effective, and concentrate on those areas.

[RADIOMAN015]

It's a great idea to wear orange along with the blue BDU pants.  I agree that senior members shouldn't be wearing camo/green BDU's anywhere.   It's time to stop playing army and start playing professional

Even in our state the state police mentioned that many years ago about wearing something else so that there would be no confusion between their tactical teams and CAP teams.  The wing never did adress the comment head on, and we don't participate in any missions which the State Police at this time.  I don't think the uniform issue is the prime reason why we don't participate.  However, the state SAR "lost persons" plan places the state police as the controlling agency.
RM   

[Parsifal]

It's a great idea to wear orange along with the blue BDU pants.  I agree that senior members shouldn't be wearing camo/green BDU's anywhere.   It's time to stop playing army and start playing professional

Yes, we're not infantry. As many have pointed out in this thread and others, cammies aren't the best uniform for SAR. Cadets (who constitute a large proportion of our ground teams) wear woodland BDUs in the field simply because that is what they are issued. (I wear BBDUs for ES work, although I have cammies and AF service dress with my military bling for squadron meetings, public events, and cadet programs.)

For reasons of visibility, organizational identity, and less confusion when working with other agencies, I think that orange & blue make a good combination for a CAP field uniform. Orange and blue are the international Civil Defense (CD) colors. The international CD symbol, used by most countries, is the triangle in a circle, usually in blue and orange. CAP has civil defense missions (and originally was established as the aviation arm of the federal civil defense system). Overseas, most civil defense agencies (even those legally constituted as stand-alone military forces) seem to outfit their personnel in blue field uniforms and/or firefighter-type uniforms & protective gear that are brightly colored or have flourescent markings.

[Ned]

Its gratifying to know though, that other agency's leaders must have had "Ken" dolls too,
Major Lord

I am personally offended that you would take such a cheap shot at the wing commander in a public forum!

He is a widely respected police officer who has repeatedly put his life on the line for the likes of you and me.

(Although he does dress well, and I could see why other agencies might admire that . .  .)

[a2capt]

I would fathom that the pumpkin uniform does not have grade and badges on it, that keeps it simple, and like there would be a snowballs chance in hell to get it approved in the first place.

Now..  if those are actual valid reasons for pursuing this uniform option, that the Sheriff's look at us as a youth organization and wannabes that are  military surplus store raiders..  Why did they get that impression?

Why not get to the root of the problem? Why put a patch on it? Doing various research on CA SAR organizations, I do find some instances of orange shirts. However, I find WAY more occurrence in city/county public works departments and of course, CALTrans.

Is it any surprise that this got publicized right after the EMT got killed on the Cabrillo Freeway?

Are we even supposed to put our selves in situations like that?

There are a few folks, ironically, that work out of the same general area who look at the regulations as being "guidelines" and "suggestions", so they're not going to listen anyway.  Whats the point?

If "they won't play with us" because we don't wear orange, that suggests a more sinister problem and the "wannabe" syndrome will be just the same. The color of the uniform does not change this. The way the organization conducts itself, the way command allows the organization to conduct itself, is the problem here. Until there is wholesale change in that, we can dress in business suits, Neon SWAT outfits, or whatever. It won't matter.

..and for an agency that serves at the desire of the county sheriff, we sure do get used an awful lot.

I wholly suspect the issue portrayed here is very isolated and due to the actions of specific individuals. I also suspect the use of orange uniforms in California isn't that much out of proportion to other states and based on this thread I don't see any evidence of other wings' having the same issue of not being taken seriously because we don't wear what they wear.

I'm of the opinion that this orange thing has been some small core groups pet thing for years and they finally got their light of day with it. Just based on the experience I've had in certain geographic areas of southern California, and having been somewhat involved with ES experiences in other parts of the state, I've only ever seen this orange stuff being used in L.A. County, by a select few, and citing all kinds of things without any regulation or policy to back it up. Ever. As far back as 2004.

As I mentioned, these folks were actually declaring this to be "the" uniform, not just GT, but the uniform for anything but flight crew.  If you didn't wear, you couldn't go, they would tell you. But could never back it up. So they got their own core group of participants every time. ..and then can rightfully cite that "no one responds" because the put in place a layer of exclusion without any authority. So it took a few years, and they got a teeny bit of authority, if you can consider it that. The policy letter stops short of requiring it, other than some sort of visibility method being mandatory. We have orange vests with the L-Per's, in our case. Don't know what everyone else has.  But given the choice of one uniform that does the job, and not having to worry about changing tops before walking into the base, or out to the vehicle to do whatever duty, I know what I'm inclined to stick with.

[wuzafuzz]

I am stunned at the vitriol in some posts on this topic.  CAWG is responding to some political realities, whether they like them or not.  The alternative is taking our toys and going home which would be incredibly childish.  Some posts have suggested doing just that, in apparent ignorance of the value CAP ground teams can offer...even in California.  (It's true some sheriff SAR teams have training and gear that some countries envy.  It's also true there are some smaller counties where CAP can contribute.  Or larger counties that aren't too impressed with themselves to accept useful assistance.) 

The CA ground team uniform has been around for a long time.  Updating the pertinent regulations isn't exactly changing their world. 

Anytime I head into the boonies I sport all the orange I can find.  Some folks out there are carrying guns; hunting season or not.  Orange vests are marginally OK, but they are often covered by backpacks and various other gear.  How many people REALLY attach another vest to their packs?  Really? 

The argument about yet another expense are a little weak.  Most GTM's have far more money in their packs, boots, and gear than plenty orange shirts.  If I can't afford a cheap orange work shirt and a few patches, I probably can't afford to drive to my CAP meetings.

I'll wear an orange shirt as appropriate or required and I've never played with dolls.  If I ever decide my uniform is more important than the mission, point me to one of those wannabe whacker groups with a screwed up uniform & gear to mission & training ratio.