Is the Hock Store really done?

[Major Carrales]

The Texas Wing has had all sorts of trouble trying to find a home for its Texas Wing Summer and Winter Encampment and its CTEP programs at said installations driving up the prices for these activities for "out of pocket" expenses and outright cancellations of said activities. 

I think the time is at hand for CAP to build Wing level Facilities for such training and even ES activities, which can be rented out to other organiations (with necessary insurance stipliations and properly handled legal matters), such as the Boy Scouts, Volunteer Fire Academies and the like.

If the vangaurd stipend can start that process in the West, then it better darn well happen. 

[lordmonar]

So...start your research, find a location, get a price tag, get a building plan and line up some donors for the initial investiment.  Write up a proposal for the Vanguard Money and submit it to the NEC.

[Spike]

^currently in progress in GAWG and WAWG. 

[Eclipse]

In my wing, if you build things where human beings live, the entire $250K(ish) that VG has given so far would get you a
good-sized 3 or 4-car garage-sized building or a store-front-type facility.

Something on the scale of an EOC or encampment-capable facility is $1-2 Million, and then there's operating costs.

Put it in more rural areas and the price goes down, but so does the use, which then equals atrophy, dilapidation, and your per-use costs
go up significantly.

Operating on the "Blanche DuBois Model" is really the only way CAP is able to sustain its capabilities - there's a reason the military costs so much - the $cale of operation$.

[Major Carrales]

"Blanche DuBois Model" is really the only way CAP is able to sustain its capabilities - there's a reason the military costs so much - the $cale of operation$.

Don't you mean "Benson DuBois," CAP can operate a facility of its own construction because there are, at least in Texas, umpteen organizations looking for a facility and those of the Texas National Guard are sought after and filled.  I would say that such a facility in Texas could self-sustain leasing out its spaces and facilities and be booked year round.

[Eclipse]

The last thing CAP needs to be is a landlord - we explored a shared-use EOC-type concept locally, and among 40 other challenges,
we found that anything worth our time would need almost full-time management, and most CAP people don't join to be building managers or maintenance people, nor could we sustain hiring someone.

That's another place where some key full-time employees would open up all sorts of possibilities, but frankly its fairly off-target for
what CAP should be doing.

Our "model" is most successful when we can take advantage of underutilized military facilities and equipment - places where Uncle Sam worries about the lights, heat, and roof, and we can just play CAP when we need to. There's just not that much of it around anymore.

[Major Carrales]

So, list all the underutilized facilities in Texas?  They all all being utilized...which is why we are having trouble.

If we want facilites that meet our needs and will be available for our use (and not drive up encampment fees to $300 plus dollars) then we must build, own and operate them.  It is not good practice to expect to attach to some military base when there are none to be had.

[Eclipse]

My point it that our existing model is "broken", since it depends on facilities and resources no longer available.

Building new facilities that we have to capitalize is not going to reduce the cost of encampments - why do you think most comparable
activities from other organizations cost 2-3x's s much?

Our Spring costs $75 this year, which includes 9 meals, 4 overnights and access to plenty of mil-spec toys.  I don't even want to think about
what it would cost if we had to maintain our own buildings, not to mention there'd be no pool, SAMT, Seamanship trainer, or gym - certainly not on the scale we have access to now.

[Major Lord]

You might consider dual-chartering your Squadrons as BSA Venture Crews, which will give you access to BSA facilities at very low cost. Its a heck of a lot cheaper than buying. If you know any Billionaires who would like to endow CAP with money for a Military School like facility, it could not hurt to ask them.....  Col. Land of ACA can probably give you better feedback on the ins and outs of facilities acquisitions.

Major Lord

[Major Carrales]

I have brought this up...but am told that they don't have what is needed for an "ENCAMPMENT." 

I think that name needs to be changed, there is no actual camping done at an "encampment."  If cadets slept in tents for that week and held classes in what they need to, would that not better define an encampment?  I think using the various patrol methods would teach team work and allow the actual instruction to be applied.

I think the name should be changed from "Encampment" to "CAP Cadet Induction Week."

[Fuzzy]

Not to be confused with "CAP Indoctrination Week".

[tdepp]

You might consider dual-chartering your Squadrons as BSA Venture Crews, which will give you access to BSA facilities at very low cost. Its a heck of a lot cheaper than buying. If you know any Billionaires who would like to endow CAP with money for a Military School like facility, it could not hurt to ask them.....  Col. Land of ACA can probably give you better feedback on the ins and outs of facilities acquisitions.

Major Lord

Perhaps someone has successfully sailed these rocky shoals before, but as I understand it, CAP only has one FEIN for 501(c) purposes, not the individual squadrons, groups and wings.  So the donated money, again, as I understand it, goes to the CAP Iron Rice Bowl for either all to use or for a purpose that our governance sees fit to spend it on.  If someone has gotten a major grant (let's say five figures) from United Way or some other donor for their own use without NHQ involvement, I'd like to know how you accomplished that.  PM me if you prefer with your experiences.

[lordmonar]

All money donated to CAP units belong to CAP INC.

There are a  lot of grants and things to local squadrons....but they should have been coordinated through wing....especially if the were over the dollar threashold (I can't remember what it is off hand).

[Major Lord]

Although I don't see any particular problem with CAP, Inc. being the custodian of a facility that could be used be used by every subdivision of CAP, I don't see how that would effect using BSA facilities. As far as a donation to CAP, I have heard of, but never seen directly, "directed" endowments, i.e.,  the case of a car dealership donating a vehicle for the direct use of a single Squadron, with the understanding that the vehicle was Corporate property.

Major Lord

[Hawk200]

I have brought this up...but am told that they don't have what is needed for an "ENCAMPMENT." 

I think that name needs to be changed, there is no actual camping done at an "encampment."  If cadets slept in tents for that week and held classes in what they need to, would that not better define an encampment?  I think using the various patrol methods would teach team work and allow the actual instruction to be applied.

I think the name should be changed from "Encampment" to "CAP Cadet Induction Week."

All the encampments I've been to seemed to attempt to emulate Basic. Why not "basic training"?

[SarDragon]

That would work great if it was done in the first year of every cadet's membership. Sadly, some cadets aren't able to attend until their second or third year, and they have bypassed much of the direct CAP training they will get at encampment. I, myself, didn't get to my encampment until my third summer in CAP, and was a C/TSgt at the time.

[PHall]

That would work great if it was done in the first year of every cadet's membership. Sadly, some cadets aren't able to attend until their second or third year, and they have bypassed much of the direct CAP training they will get at encampment. I, myself, didn't get to my encampment until my third summer in CAP, and was a C/TSgt at the time.

And I bet you still learned something. While you didn't learn to be a follower, I bet you got a pretty good lesson on stepping up and leading your "team" through the fun that is Encampment.

[Ned]

My experience with these sorts of things parallels Bob's.

I have worked closely with various military bases that were closing down, looking at the feasibility of getting some barracks and headquarters buildings donated.  As it turns out, they would have loved to give us significant portions of the former Fort Ord, Moffet Field, Alamada Naval Air Station, or even the March Air Reserve Base.

The problem comes with the details.  The Fort Ord barracks would need to have all the asbestos insulation removed, and brought up to current building codes.  Not to mention trying to find folks qualified to operated the boilers (pre-HVAC stuff).  I figured I could have talked them out of the ADA stuff (think elevators for WWII barracks and wheel chair ramps for the latrine), but even if they had handed them over "as is", we simply could never maintain them. 

Everytime I tried to run some numbers, I could never make it close to economical.  There are certain costs associated with maintenance that cannot be avoided - heat & lights, for instance.  And old government buildings are not the most energy-efficient structures in the world.  Roofs need to be replaced and maintained.  Plumbing  (particularly old plumbing) needs to be repaired and maintained.  Paint, lawns, interior repairs and you are talking serious, serious money.

And how often would it really be used?  Sure you might run 3-4 encampments a year.  Throw in a couple of RCLS's, and maybe a dozen weekends for NCO schools, drill comps, model rocketry weekends, and whatever, and you will find that even with intense scheduling, the building is sitting vacant over half the time.  (But still needs maintenance.)

You could try leasing it to outside groups like the Scouts or ACA, but they are going to want to use the buildings at the same time you do - weekends and the summer.  You could try to get seniors to use the buildings to train, but they don't want to hold the wing conference in tired old government buildings and are rarely enthused about sleeping in open bay barracks and showering in a big room with 10 other seniors.

This is normally the time when one or more parents will volunteer to cut the grass, and Billy's Dad's best friend used to be a roofer, so he can maybe do the repairs "at cost", and everyone thinks it is reasonable for the Power Company and/or Uncle Sam to donate the utilities.  The only folks who don't think so are the Power Company and Uncle Sam.

I tried very hard on multiple occasions to come up with some sort of a financial model that wasn't just a disaster waiting to happen.  But despite my best eXcel and Access skills, I couldn't do it.

And we have a precedent.  It wasn't that long ago that a non-insignificant number of units had acquired 44-pax buses after wing screened used buses from the AF.  Big buses come with big maintenance costs, so not surprisingly the units wound up "deferring" more and more of the routine maintenance until the buses became unsafe, or simply sat parked behind the squadron headquarters for years at a time.  Forlorn vehicles with flat tires, broken windows, and missing seats became the norm.

It would be the same kind of thing with barracks.  Until Bill Gates wants to endow the Microsoft Leadership Training Facility, it will take a smarter person that me to figure out how to make it work.

YMMV.


And I have pitched an idea to the region and wing DCPs that NHQ - when processing the cadet's initial membership package - would "order" the cadet to encampment the following summer.  In essence, they would receive a letter from Gen Courter to the effect of:

"Greetings.  You have taken the first step along a path to incredible learning and adventure.  Congratulations!  You are hereby ordered to attend (*Your Wings*) encampment to be held (*date*) at (*location*) for advanced leadership training.  Failure to attend encampment will result in loss of eligibility for the coveted Billy Mitchell Award and cadet officer status.   If you are unable to attend your scheduled encampment, you must make alternative arrangements to attend another one.  Contact your squadron commander for furher information."

The theory is to create an expectation of encampment attendence during the first year, and impose an "opt-out" posture instead of the current "opt-in" methodology.

Like many of my ideas, this has not been met with wild enthusiasm.

Oh well.  I'll keep trying.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
(Cool job, Crummy job title)

[necigrad]

What about the AF providing a facility on a base, with CAP being a tenant?  I don't know all the details, and there are issues, but both Squadrons here on Nellis use base facilities.  There's got to be a base (especially out West where we need this) that has downsized a bit and has available buildings.  Sure there will be maintenance, but the maintenance required would be negligible in the grand scheme of the facility.  Maybe a joint AF/CAP use facility.  There's got to be a way to make something like that work.  Given that we are Congressionaly mandated to be here as the Air Force Auxiliary, I don't see why this couldn't be a road taken.

[PA Guy]

Big difference between providing a sqdn meeting place and providing a training facility with classrooms, dorms, messing etc. The Aux thing doesn't buy us much when it comes to this sort of stuff. I don't mean to sound negative but this has been looked at with every AF base, depot and radar station that has closed in CAWG and that's a bunch. When the AF downsizes something or closes it they do it to cut costs not continue to maintain it to help out their little CAP buddies. One former AFB in CA wanted 30K just to keep the mess hall available plus rent everytime we used it.