Is the Hock Store really done?

[SarDragon]

So, is National Headquarters breaking their exclusive agreement (which I've never seen) with Vanguard?


http://www.caphistory.org/museum_store_form.html

This patch wasn't made by, nor is it being sold by, Vanguard Industries. Who's going to put the legal hammer down on this?

From your link: Features the WWII Coastal Patrol Base 3 insignia designed by CAP artist Zack Mosley. Used with permission of the Mosley estate.

CAP doesn't own, and they got permission. IMHO, all is good.

[tdepp]

It is 6%.  This came from the former National Finance Officer.

5% is a fairly typical licensing rate for these types of items, so 6% is like, 1 better.  See This Is Spinal Tap.  Looks like CAP got a decent deal with Vanguard re the royalty rate. 

I know it is hard for some to fathom, but as the intellectual property rights holder of an extensive collection of branded material, CAP has every legal right to enter into exclusive or non-exclusive licensing arrangements with others who wish to sell our branded merchandise. That means it can exclude some or all from selling it.  You're swimming upstream against about a century of intellectual property decisional law and statutory authority at the federal and state levels to argue otherwise. 

My biggest complaint with Vanguard is how long it takes to get my orders.  But the quality of the items I buy is good, better than the CAP branded materials I bought from the Hock pre-cease and desist.  What CAP does with the royalty income isn't Vanguard's issue, it's ours.   

[RADIOMAN015]

There are lump sum donations?  I got the impression the checks they mentioned that were cut to CAP were the 6%.  You'd have to ask the Colonel, though.  He'd know.  That's why I asked him the percentage a while back.

Hey guys.  I just was checking in after a nice day at the beach when I saw this tidbit.  I do not know of any other "donations" from VG.  I only know of the 6% fee we get.  That doesn't mean VG doesn't kick in extra.  I don't have that information.   Well, back to the beach.....

Have fun at the beach    I think what this basically means is that we the purchaser of items will basically be paying for the rebate, since it is likely that Vanguard will build in a percentage factor to at least cover the rebate % as well as meet a specific gross margin to match its' other revenue flows.

I handle coop advertising planning/monitoring for my employer and in every case where a particular vendor offers their own store for logo novelty/clothing items (usually a 50% reimbursement), the prices are higher than using our local novelty vendor.

So again, I realize there's a public relations "spin" on this by Vanguard (and Civil Air Patrol) but in reality the pricing structure is such that we the membership are paying for these rebates in the first place
RM

[RADIOMAN015]

So what if I can't buy a CDI badge anywhere other than Vanguard?

The problem is that if we continue to let the Hock and others skim off the cream (nametapes, etc), then VG cannot make a profit to subsidize the CDI badge at a reasonably affordable level.  The net result would be that VG would walk away from the contract and while we could buy nametapes at 1-800-nametaes, the CDI badge gets orphaned (along with most of the other badges, ribbons, and insignia.)

Although my service from VG has always been prompt, I understand that not everyone has had the same level of service.  Clearly there is room for improvement, but it makes no sense to toss the baby out with the bathwater.  The goal is to make sure all of our members can get the full range of insignia at reasonable prices.

Make sure you chain is made aware of VG service problems so they can be addressed.

I guess most of us would wonder what your definition of "prompt" service is    For me it means order received in morning (during a business day) is out the door shipped by the end of that day, or the latest the following business day.  For name tapes/tags 3 business days at max (means it ships the 3rd business day).

As far as the chain of command handling complaints.  My understanding is there's one staff member in the Membership Services department at National Hdqs that monitors the service level.  Funny but "service level" expectations have never been published to the general membership.  My guess is that in every instance The Hock Shop would exceed what wiggle room Vanguard has been given.

Frankly, name tags & name tapes can easily be purchased from local vendors that make it right on site while you wait.   The key issue though is to be sure they have the right color (PMS code).  Also the thread density (probably the wrong term) ideally will match the "Civil Air Patrol" tape as well as your name tape.  So probably a good idea to get both BDU/BBDU tapes done by the same vendor.
RM     

[Smokey]

I have mixed feelings on thw whole issue.  While I understand the issue of protected material, trademarks, yada yada....I am also a firm believer in the free market.  YES, I am one of those people!! I believe competition makes for better products and better deals for consumers (for those from Rio Linda, that's us folks who buy the stuff). 

I am irked by being forced to go to a sole source (think health care). I personally have ordered from both and found Vanguard's service and attitude lacking but the quality of items good.  The Hock has always been  accomadating, reasonably priced, quick to ship and rectify any problems.  And the quality on a few items was better than Vanguard!

I'd much prefer NHQ let both sell the stuff and let them decide on how much of a kick back to make and set prices.  The market will decide who to patronize.  If Hock's quality is an issue, well then competetion should rectify that.  If Vanguard can't price stuff reasonably (Including shipping) then competetion will rectify that.

Let the buyer decide.

NOTE: This is an unbiased opinion as I don't have a dog in this fight!

[BillB]

Are you sure Civil Air Patrol "owns" the abbreviation CAP? It is in common use in the military as Combat Air Patrol. Go to almost any military site and look for CAP and it comes back as Combat Air Patrol. I even found that on one USAF site.

[SarDragon]

They  probably lay claim to the specific styling of the insignia - CAP in the block letters with a specific finish, etc. If some other organization with the initials CAP wanted to use an insignia with letters of a significantly different style, I don't think there would be a problem.


YMMV.

[PHall]

Here's something "interesting". AAFES (Army and Air Force Exchange Service) is offering CAP Name Tags and Name Tapes through the Military Clothing Sales stores.

I wonder if National has the stones to send AAFES a C&D letter?

[Hawk200]

Here's something "interesting". AAFES (Army and Air Force Exchange Service) is offering CAP Name Tags and Name Tapes through the Military Clothing Sales stores.

I wonder if National has the stones to send AAFES a C&D letter?

It's been mentioned here before that AAFES procures all their insignia from Vanguard.

How do you compete with a company by selling their product?

[Major Lord]

They call that " Grey Market" goods.

Major Lord

[Lancer]

Remember, no contract lasts forever, and VG values their reputation.  And if they are truly making a decent profit, they will want to be in a position to rebid the contract.

Not if they keep pulling bonehead moves like this.



The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the members are tired of feeling ripped off, plain and simple. When Vanguard sells a short sleeve blues shirt for $44.00 that you can buy at an MCSS for under $15.00, you can darn well imagine the membership is going to call BS on that! Markup's like that are completely uncalled for.

Members are also tired of either waiting forever for their orders, or having their orders getting messed up because someone wasn't paying attention. Case in point; I placed an order for some items, they arrived relatively when expected and the order was complete and satisfactory...for me, but a few days later I get a box from Vanguard, with my name and address on the 'ship to:', but a different members name and address (other side of the country) in the 'bill to:'! I had to work with them to get this member his personalized CAP items!

It's this poor attention to detail AND more importantly CUSTOMER SERVICE that really wears on us when we are only left with pretty much ONE choice for our 'Come And Pay' accoutrement's. 

[PHall]

Here's something "interesting". AAFES (Army and Air Force Exchange Service) is offering CAP Name Tags and Name Tapes through the Military Clothing Sales stores.

I wonder if National has the stones to send AAFES a C&D letter?

It's been mentioned here before that AAFES procures all their insignia from Vanguard.

How do you compete with a company by selling their product?

The last set of name tapes I got from AAFES (my ABU one's) didn't have anything on them that said Vanguard on them.
They did come from San Antonio though.

[Short Field]

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the members are tired of feeling ripped off, plain and simple. When Vanguard sells a short sleeve blues shirt for $44.00 that you can buy at an MCSS for under $15.00, you can darn well imagine the membership is going to call BS on that!

LOL - then the membership needs to be buying it at a MCSS.  I always bought the higher quality shirts instead of the issue quality shirts.  It cost more but was worth it.

[Eclipse]

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the members are tired of feeling ripped off, plain and simple. When Vanguard sells a short sleeve blues shirt for $44.00 that you can buy at an MCSS for under $15.00, you can darn well imagine the membership is going to call BS on that! Markup's like that are completely uncalled for.

There's no reason members should be buying their shirts from VG, if they can't be bothered to use AAFES, or call an MCSS, then Kay-Sarah-Sarah.

[Lancer]

There's no reason members should be buying their shirts from VG, if they can't be bothered to use AAFES, or call an MCSS, then Kay-Sarah-Sarah.

Right, who cares about those new members who were never in the military who don't know about these outlets, or the parents of new cadets who just get blindly steered into Vanguard being their only source. Yeah, 'Que Sera Sera'. 

[Eclipse]

There's no reason members should be buying their shirts from VG, if they can't be bothered to use AAFES, or call an MCSS, then Kay-Sarah-Sarah.

Right, who cares about those new members who were never in the military who don't know about these outlets, or the parents of new cadets who just get blindly steered into Vanguard being their only source. Yeah, 'Que Sera Sera'. 

The failure of a member's commander to properly inform him of the correct place to shop is not the fault of anyone but the commander.
AAFES is plenty prominent in publications and should not be the secret that is (for some reason is).

There are plenty of people in CAP who joined and left thinking the Hock was the official uniform source.

[a2capt]

The shirt offering from Vanguard looks very much like it's the Propper branded one, and that mark-up isn't much different than MCSS.  They don't show the label information, but just looking at it, it does not look like DSCP.

As for the helicopter.. d'oh!

[Dragon 3-2]

The poor ethics come from NHQ as well for setting this up in the first place. For a non-profit they are pretty greedy. If they were smart they would have opened the licensing up to anyone that can meet an NHQ spec and charge a percentage or flat fee. The unethical action is to set up a monopoly relationship at the expense of the members.

Really?  Why do you say that?


Now that you have directly accused our volunteer leaders of being greedy and unethical, perhaps you'd like to share exactly what code of eithics you are speaking about and how this contract violates it.

(You were speaking directly about an ethical violation, right?  IOW, a clear and direct violation of a given code of ethics or codified set of norms, correct?)

Remember, the whole point of the VG contract is to provide a service to our members that NHQ tried for years to provide, but ultimately failed.  The VG contract has - and will continue to -save thousands of dollars of dues that otherwise went down the drain as we tried to come up with an workable model (Bookstore, Capmart, etc) at NHQ.

Sure, 1-800-nametapes could sell CAP nametapes for less than VG.  But try buing a master CDI badge from them.  VG's contract requires them to produce all current authorized insignia, which they do.

VG's contract does not last forever, and will be subject to competitive bidding for renewal.  Tom (and anyone else) will be free to bid. 

Just like last time.

But seriously, before you go publicly accusing our leadership of greed and ethical violations, please be able to lay out specifically what ethics were violated and how.

No wonder it is hard to find top-notch people to serve as our volunteer leaders, when they are subject to this sort of Monday morning quarterbacking.

Ned Lee
NHQ Apologist

Sir, I humbly ask you look for Cloth Pre-solo wings on VG's website in regards to the boldfaced section.

[a2capt]

I certainly never found them there, I had to get them from the Hock.


I also had to "make" a pre-solo metal one from a solo one.. The Good thing about that was I could make it back into the "Prop'er" thing when the time came. Solder, and a polishing tip on a Dremel...   and heated it back up again and knocked it all off when I needed to expose the propeller..

[Fuzzy]

I always assumed the Pre-Solo guys didn't wear the cloth wings because unlike the metal ones, they're much more distinctive. On the metal, you really can't tell the difference between the two until you are fairly close.