The agenda for the May NEC meeting (http://level2.cap.gov/documents/2008_May_NEC_Agenda.pdf) is out. May I direct your attention to Pges 17-19 dealing with Hawk Mtn and NBB bling.
I have a couple of issues what is being proposed:
1. Why should Hawk staff and expert rangers wear grade on ball caps when CAPM 39-1 prohibits it on ball caps?
2. Since only Hawk Mtn qualifies for ranger tabs and it is only offered once per year why should the tabs be authorized? They have no practical purpose outside of Hawk Mtn. Hawk grads already get the patch.
3. Speaking of tabs, the medic tabs really serve no purpose because CAP does not have a medic qualification.
4. They need to address the issue of 'crushing' or 'rolling' the ball cap. It is currently prohibited and should remain so.
At least they got part of it right (IMO):
Quote from: NEC May 2008 AgendaOrange t-shirts, color-coded scarves and pistol belts will not be worn away from the
activity.
On the berets, while I personally do not like them, they are at least limiting it to the
cow pie beret itself. The NBB patch was already authorized.
Don't like this concept at all.
Whats next? Is each NCSA going to have their own special hats and shirts that can be worn long after the activity is over? We've got almost no uniformity in anything as it is, and adding in this individual variation is even worse. Jeez, isn't a patch enough?
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2008, 03:14:28 AM
Don't like this concept at all.
Whats next? Is each NCSA going to have their own special hats and shirts that can be worn long after the activity is over? We've got almost no uniformity in anything as it is, and adding in this individual variation is even worse. Jeez, isn't a patch enough?
I defintiely agree with this sentiment.
I'm just hoping that if the NEC happens to miraculously pass it, that the AF will have some sense and so no.
If there is to be "special activity" items, my I suggest uniformity? Lets say, in keeping with tradition, one beret authorized for attending a National Cadet Activity, just vary the flash on it per each activity.
Thus "Hawk" develops an orange flash with some distinctive shield, a blue one for Blue Beret (change the name of the activity to something more "functional" and keep the physical blue beret as a homage to it. Maybe a flash for each Wing encampment that can obtain a "blessing" from National. Limit wear to one flash.
That is my attempt at a solution.
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 18, 2008, 03:52:11 AM
If there is to be "special activity" items, my I suggest uniformity? Lets say, in keeping with tradition, one beret authorized for attending a National Cadet Activity, just vary the flash on it per each activity.
Thus "Hawk" develops an orange flash with some distinctive shield, a blue one for Blue Beret (change the name of the activity to something more "functional" and keep the physical blue beret as a homage to it. Maybe a flash for each Wing encampment that can obtain a "blessing" from National. Limit wear to one flash.
That is my attempt at a solution.
I do not agree at all. There already exist uniform special activity items. There is no need to create anything more outside of this system.
Members completing a national activity can wear a patch on the BDUs (whether it be NBB and Hawk or NFA or COS or NESA)
Members attending an NCSA earn the NCSA ribbon for the blues.
Why should two activities of our dozens be granted special status outside of an already established and functioning system of recognizing activity attendance?
I believe I've been thinking about this all wrong thoughout 21 years of CAP service. Instead of patches, ascots, berets, ribbons, pistol belts, whistles, orange hats, and pledge pins, we need to copy the Boy Scouts and just wear a sash.
(http://members.cox.net/renegade_sith2/miscjunk/eagle-scout-marshall-watts.jpg)
That way we can wear everything we've earned with either uniform.
^ I see you are missing your Merritt badge for being so freaking gey.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 18, 2008, 04:15:11 AM
^ I see you are missing your Merritt badge for being so freaking gey.
Yeah, you done with that? I meant to get that from you...
Was a boy scout for all of 6 months.
Quote from: Pylon on April 18, 2008, 03:57:24 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on April 18, 2008, 03:52:11 AM
If there is to be "special activity" items, my I suggest uniformity? Lets say, in keeping with tradition, one beret authorized for attending a National Cadet Activity, just vary the flash on it per each activity.
Thus "Hawk" develops an orange flash with some distinctive shield, a blue one for Blue Beret (change the name of the activity to something more "functional" and keep the physical blue beret as a homage to it. Maybe a flash for each Wing encampment that can obtain a "blessing" from National. Limit wear to one flash.
That is my attempt at a solution.
I do not agree at all. There already exist uniform special activity items. There is no need to create anything more outside of this system.
Members completing a national activity can wear a patch on the BDUs (whether it be NBB and Hawk or NFA or COS or NESA)
Members attending an NCSA earn the NCSA ribbon for the blues.
Why should two activities of our dozens be granted special status outside of an already established and functioning system of recognizing activity attendance?
I just presented a solution as a reaction to subject matter. I know it is the tenor of these forums to, for the majority of the times, rant and complain instead of presenting solutions.
Fact is, the ascots, whistles and the rest of Hawk were being taken up to OFFICIAL WEAR SYSTEM WIDE (yes, capital letters), and it seems like numerous more Wing and Regions have activities that rival or equal the these...why not have a system in place that aurhotizes 1, count them 1, special uniform item (a beret, which appears on these forum more times than not indicating they are things many people want) with a patch/flash (which would repalce the uniform patches on BDUs)
Require then to have the patrol cap and beret, and all is well.
No offense to anyone specifically, but there sure has been a lot of whining on this board about berets, ranger tabs, and other similar paraphernalia.
I don't see why we can't have an "elite" program (for lack of a better term) and let those people wear something that actually looks "tough".
Heaven forbid.
We're stuck with cheesy smurf blue patches and grey slides and there doesn't seem to be much we can do about it. The USAFAUX advocates may flame me, but at least the new corporate white/blues is a step toward a clean, professional looking uniform without all the lettering everywhere. When shaved and shaped properly, a beret looks good, and I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.
Everyone complains about low standards in CAP, but when someone raises the bar and wants to award people for going the distance they complain. Give it a rest and recognize those guys for what they're doing. I know that if I ever crash, I'd want them to come looking for me...
On that note, I like the way that our GSARSS here in TXWG do it, nice and simple. They wear solid black ball caps with their GT badge on it. Looks good.
/rant
Quote from: jaybird512 on April 18, 2008, 06:48:44 AM
and I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.
Eeeeeek....that may be a stretch.....
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 18, 2008, 07:08:16 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on April 18, 2008, 06:48:44 AM
and I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.
Eeeeeek....that may be a stretch.....
Unfortunately, I think you're right...
Quote from: Stonewall on April 18, 2008, 04:07:01 AM
I believe I've been thinking about this all wrong thoughout 21 years of CAP service. Instead of patches, ascots, berets, ribbons, pistol belts, whistles, orange hats, and pledge pins, we need to copy the Boy Scouts and just wear a sash.
That way we can wear everything we've earned with either uniform.
And issue a CAP batliff instead of sword. All pro words in comm will be in Klingon.
Here's an issue to think about with the headgear. In the Air Force, you wear special headgear (such as berets) only while you are assigned to a unit that wears that particular piece of felt. For example, if you are a Security Forces dude or dudette you would wear your blue beret while you are with a Security Forces unit. Say you go off in another direction and suddenly you are doing supply with a logistics unit.....no more blue beret.
This is why the old rule made sense. You wore the things at the activity and only at the activity. Now, if people choose not to follow the rules, that is a different story.
Quote from: jaybird512 on April 18, 2008, 06:48:44 AM
... I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.
Because NBB is not elite. Other than the special activity being named after a hat, it has nothing to do with special skills, tactics, or certifications. Hawk, well, you're talking about looking neat, nice and well formed with a beret. Well, what Hawk issues is none of the above. Once again, this is what an "elite" Hawk grad showed up wearing to a squadron meeting in FL: Starched crushed/ranger rolled BDU cap, white ascot, white pistol belt, whistle, ranger tab and the ranger patch. To me, it looks like the Vanguard
catalog website threw up on her.
Quote from: CAPSGT on April 18, 2008, 11:29:40 AM
Here's an issue to think about with the headgear. In the Air Force, you wear special headgear (such as berets) only while you are assigned to a unit that wears that particular piece of felt. For example, if you are a Security Forces dude or dudette you would wear your blue beret while you are with a Security Forces unit. Say you go off in another direction and suddenly you are doing supply with a logistics unit.....no more blue beret.
Cops assigned to intellegence units keep their berets. So there goes that example right down the toilet.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 18, 2008, 12:58:09 PM
Cops assigned to intellegence units keep their berets. So there goes that example right down the toilet.
That's because they're still cops, just doing cop work at a different unit. Mike was talking about changing AFSCs. Just because you
were a cop doesn't mean you keep the beret. Skill badge, yes, but "police" shield and beret, uh buh bye.
so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 18, 2008, 02:47:40 PM
so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??
The tab is equal to a badge, i.e. jump wings. But we're talking headgear. If you are a PJ in a Pararescue Squadorn, you'd wear a maroon beret. But let's say you switched over and became the first sergeant of a non-PJ squadron, you'd lose the beret but keep all the skill badges like Airborne, HALO, SCUBA, etc.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 18, 2008, 04:15:11 AM
^ I see you are missing your Merritt badge for being so freaking gey.
Yeah, I need one. I understand you're the guy who hands those out?
>:D
The whole thing is silly. Allow the Special Activity Patch (worn in the correct place on the uniform like 39-1 says, without idiot wing kings allowing it to replace the wing patches) and nothing else! These people are no where special, not do they have any more special skills than average Joe blow member. I went to Hawk when I was a Cadet, and can say, it taught me no more than what I learned in the SQD.
To even make a reference to Hawk Rangers being some special breed of CAP member is so ridiculous.
I can't even believe this is being included in the agenda. If I had my way, Hawk would have burned down years ago. It only fosters and drives an elitist mentality, and that is what people here reference when wanting to wear their bling.
Quote from: NIN on April 18, 2008, 03:11:27 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 18, 2008, 04:15:11 AM
^ I see you are missing your Merritt badge for being so freaking gey.
Yeah, I need one. I understand you're the guy who hands those out?
>:D
Takes one to know one I guess.
Now, for $45.50 I will include all the Hawk Bling as well. You can be a ranger by this time next week!
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 18, 2008, 02:47:40 PM
so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??
A ranger who goes to a straight-leg infantry outfit keeps his tab.
At that point, its about the skillset. In theory, you could be in one of those places where they come and say "OK, everybody with a weapon, follow me, we need to blunt this counterattack" (I'm thinking Pusan Perimeter-style here) and some SFC or 1SG can say "OK, you three guys, you've been to Ranger school, here, take these three squads and..."
The salting of Ranger-qualified guys throughout the forces is seen as a "force multiplier." Perhaps a guy with Ranger skillz can turn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source) Its handy to have those skill sets, and in particular good Ranger NCO leadership, in various places in a unit.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 18, 2008, 03:13:35 PM
Takes one to know one I guess.
Now, for $45.50 I will include all the Hawk Bling as well. You can be a ranger by this time next week!
Sweet! Take a check for $50? Does that include the sash, or do I need to make my own? That green really sets off my eyes...
;D
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 18, 2008, 03:11:44 PM
The whole thing is silly. Allow the Special Activity Patch (worn in the correct place on the uniform like 39-1 says, without idiot wing kings allowing it to replace the wing patches) and nothing else! These people are no where special, not do they have any more special skills than average Joe blow member. I went to Hawk when I was a Cadet, and can say, it taught me no more than what I learned in the SQD.
To even make a reference to Hawk Rangers being some special breed of CAP member is so ridiculous.
I can't even believe this is being included in the agenda. If I had my way, Hawk would have burned down years ago. It only fosters and drives an elitist mentality, and that is what people here reference when wanting to wear their bling.
I dunno about burning the place down. I went to Winter Hawk and it was some of the best training I've been to in CAP in YEARS. Loved it. Didn't drink the Kool-Aid, but loved the training and the environment.
Now, I think they should have a big funeral pyre in the middle of the basecamp and everybody marches forth and lays their bling on the flames... Silly orange hats, whistles, pistol belts, ascots, tabs, whatever. Lay that crap to rest once and for all. Burn down the silliness, if you will. Keep the facility and the training.
Bottom line: Keep the patch as an NCSA patch, get the NCSA ribbon. Done.
Quote from: NIN on April 18, 2008, 03:16:16 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 18, 2008, 02:47:40 PM
so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??
A ranger who goes to a straight-leg infantry outfit keeps his tab.
At that point, its about the skillset. In theory, you could be in one of those places where they come and say "OK, everybody with a weapon, follow me, we need to blunt this counterattack" (I'm thinking Pusan Perimeter-style here) and some SFC or 1SG can say "OK, you three guys, you've been to Ranger school, here, take these three squads and..."
The salting of Ranger-qualified guys throughout the forces is seen as a "force multiplier." Perhaps a guy with Ranger skillz can turn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source) Its handy to have those skill sets, and in particular good Ranger NCO leadership, in various places in a unit.
"Heartbreak Ridge."
Supply: "An under-appreciated field of endeavor."
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 18, 2008, 03:28:55 PMturn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source)
Gunny vs Webster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olDASQ6-4KE) en español.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 18, 2008, 12:39:31 PM
To me, it looks like the Vanguard catalog website threw up on her.
That's a keeper! :D
We could end all the commotion with distinctive underwear: it would be like with challenge coins-flash your waistband, and the first one with tighty-whiteys buys the beer!
Quote from: Stonewall on April 18, 2008, 03:50:18 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 18, 2008, 03:28:55 PMturn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source)
Gunny vs Webster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olDASQ6-4KE) en español.
(as Gunny Highway says)
"for those of you who don't habla....."I love that movie, sarcasm and bullets flying everywhere.
don't forget: Webster pronounces it 'ee-light.'
I am particularly concerned about the "medic" tabs from Hawk Mountain being spread around. While I don't like the others either, that one sort of gets into a tricky area as we have discussed in many medical related threads.
Quote2. Since only Hawk Mtn qualifies for ranger tabs and it is only offered once per year why should the tabs be authorized? They have no practical purpose outside of Hawk Mtn. Hawk grads already get the patch.
I think I addressed this in another thread (or maybe on cadet stuff), but to re-clarify. Ranger ratings can be (and are) awarded all year long on and off the mountain. Someone of the next higher ranger grade can sign off skills for the grades below them. Once the testing sheet is completed it is forwarded to the stan eval officer and a rating order is published. The only exceptions are certain expert ranger ratings (ie edible plants, firearms and rope skills require special instructors) and the rope skills of the ranger advanced rating.
I amnot sure anymore, but in years passed the squadron commander could sign off on the R/2 sheet skills even if they are not an R/1 or above.
I imagine the reason behind the NEC agenda is that there was no clarification on what was exactly included from the TP approval letter; so of course they have put in for approval for everything in the hopes that maybe at least some of it gets approved.
I personally would be happy with a modified GTM badge (like mentioned in the Hawk and ABU thread) that denotes some kind of Ranger qualification and the LL patch, every thing else can go by the way side. Especialy the hat and the ascot.
mk
All that is needed is the Hawk Patch. Isn't that enough to show your experiences?? I would love for the patch to be worn in the proper place as mandated by 39-1 and the ICL's as well. PAWG mandates that Hawk Grads wear the patch in place of the Wing Patch. That burns my toast! IT is a very clear violation of the regs.
I noticed in the proposal that the patch would be worn on the breast pocket like all other Special Activity Patches. I don't know where the PAWG Wing King gets off telling people to violate the rules. When this does pass, I hope the patch is only worn like it is supposed to be worn.
Here is my reasoning (if anyone is interested). Going to HAWK is fine. IT can be a challenging activity for a 14 year old Cadet. Eating Rabbits and walking around a bird sanctuary until your blisters have blisters is a growing experience for someone that young I guess. However, what do patches, whistles and ascots do for the graduate? NOTHING. All these items are designed to make sure the "average CAP Member" knows that the wearer did something different. It adds nothing to the abilities of the wearer. It creates division, and contempt between people that should be working on the same team. I would say it even goes as far as creating an elitist mentality. The whole "I went I am a Ranger, I know what I am doing" mindset is formed. IT is very apparent based on Katrina AAR and personal conversations between myself and those rangers that went, that Hawk Rangers are no more capable than another member to perform ES operations. Nothing taught at HAWK was usefull in Katrina. I say this because the PAWG Rangers were specifically called out for doing things wrong and doing things their own way. They could not even follow the orders of those who were in charge.
I went to HAWK as a Cadet, I went to HAWK as a Senior Member, and can say that what most CAP members do in ES is not what is presented at HAWK. Many will call BS on that. All I can say is that it is only recently that Ranger Grades have been equated with ES ops.
If this passes, I want those that attended army Ranger School or AF or Navy or Marine courses to be able to wear a CAP Ranger grade congruent with their attendance at the military school they went to. If we are going to say you have to be able to do so many pushups, a run and regurgitate info to be a Ranger Second Class, I strongly believe those that went to a military special forces or operations school to be just as well qualified for at least R-2.
Finally, and those of you that are of the Air Force variety correct me if I am way off target, but does the Air Force allow the Army Ranger School tab to be worn on the AF uniform? I don't think they do. So, there really are no Air Force Rangers, right?!?!
We need to begin eliminating uniform bling and patches, not add to it.
I know I am going to get ranger bashed by all you HAWK supporters, but this is truly how I feel. Those that are in support of adding useless bling to the Uniform because someone spent 1.5 weeks sleeping in a tent, needs to get over themselves. Why must we create even more division in the membership? So much already exists.
Remember, we are supposed to be fostering a one CAP Mentality here. We are trying to move away from the old belief system that I am from one Wing, you are from another and because of that I am better. Now we will have the "I went to HAWK, I am better" mentality instead. Why? Because we are now offering more bling on a national level, and attendees will most likely go specifically to attain that bling, not advance their education. If HAWK is supposedly a great place to learn ES skills, why doesn't NHQ take it over and place its ops personnel in lead. Why has NHQ not created a training plan or outline for HAWK?
Wow.....one of my longest rants in a while. Sorry!
Am I correct that the US Army has two classes of Ranger?
a) Rangers
b) everybody else
Assuming there is a legitimate need for Pennsy Rangers,
why on earth do they need a hierarchy more intricate and
arcane than most secret societies?!?
Quote from: Stonewall on April 18, 2008, 03:50:18 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 18, 2008, 03:28:55 PMturn an average infantry squad into a "e-lite fighting force" (bonus points for the source)
Gunny vs Webster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olDASQ6-4KE) en español.
Actually, it's in Italian. (Pays to be fluent in Spanish - it's not too difficult to understand Italian, French and Portuguese... if they're not talkin' a mile a minute!)
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 18, 2008, 11:13:18 PMFinally, and those of you that are of the Air Force variety correct me if I am way off target, but does the Air Force allow the Army Ranger School tab to be worn on the AF uniform? I don't think they do. So, there really are no Air Force Rangers, right?!?!
You are correct, the AF does not allow the wear of SF and Ranger tabs on the AF BDU/ABUs. That said, the AF Lt Col Pararescue Officer that pinned on my jump wings wore both as he had been SF/Ranger prior to joining the AF. Also, when I was at a PJ squadron, you'd often see a PJ or two sportin' a Ranger tab. Generally, though, no one says anything because a) most people respect PJs enough to look the other way, b) most AF types don't know the regs enough to know whether or not it is wrong, and c) you could wear a Hawk Mountain Ranger tab and no one would really notice. When I first joined the Air Guard I wore my Air Assault badge, which I found out later, was not allowed. I even had it blue on OD (AF style) to match my jump wings. Not a single person noticed or cared to say something, not even at the active duty tech school.
Short answer, the only tab worn in the AF these days isn't really a tab, but an arch or scroll, and that's the SERE SPECIALIST scroll:
(http://www.aircommando.com/uu4.jpg)
And again, like their pewter green beret (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123009412), once they leave the SERE career field, the lose the scroll and beret.
(http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/041214-F-0000W-001.JPG)
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on April 19, 2008, 12:38:48 AM
Actually, it's in Italian. (Pays to be fluent in Spanish - it's not too difficult to understand Italian, French and Portuguese... if they're not talkin' a mile a minute!)
I Love Italian, Spanish, French and Portuguese..............food!
Spain and Spanish food (read, not Latino or Mexican) is delicious. Everyone should have a chance to visit Spain. Plus I love countires were they have so much more relaxed work ethics than the US. We all work so hard for so little in this country. We should enjoy life and pursue happiness like our Founding Fathers wanted us to.
Where was I going with this.....sorry!
Say NO to More HAWK and NBB bling! :clap:
Perhaps, and this is a BIG "perhaps", if CAP had a specific squadron that only did SAR and had some sort of technical skill and qualification to OFFICIALLY offer as a service to the AF, HLS, State, or local area, then, I may support some sort of special garb, beret or whatever, to identify them as an "EEEE-LIGHT" group. But of course, once you leave that special unit, you lose any identifying patch, hat or whatever.
^ I would agree with you! I took the following quote from the AF article your referenced above.....
""The beret is a motivational factor for SERE Specialists candidates in training and will aid in recruiting, retention and espirit-de-corps," ~Chief Ploof.
So it seems to me that the beret has a use for them. Unlike HAWK and NBB, they need no advertising, and their bling only goes to drive divisions between those that went and everyone else.
You know, something else, it's not like PJs, SERE Specialists, Rangers, TACPs, CCT, Paratroopers, Special Forces or God forbid, even Security Forces, wear their berets in the field. In fact, on Hunter Army Airfield lately, I rarely see any berets; mostly ACU caps are worn. Why? Because berets suck.
If I'm not mistaken, I've seen lots of Hawk Rangers and NBB folks wearing their garb, whatever it may be, in the field.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 19, 2008, 12:59:10 AM
If I'm not mistaken, I've seen lots of Hawk Rangers and NBB folks wearing their garb, whatever it may be, in the field.
And that is just wrong. They are in clear violation of National regs, not to mention common sense!
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 18, 2008, 11:07:13 PM
Quote2. Since only Hawk Mtn qualifies for ranger tabs and it is only offered once per year why should the tabs be authorized? They have no practical purpose outside of Hawk Mtn. Hawk grads already get the patch.
I think I addressed this in another thread (or maybe on cadet stuff), but to re-clarify. Ranger ratings can be (and are) awarded all year long on and off the mountain. Someone of the next higher ranger grade can sign off skills for the grades below them. Once the testing sheet is completed it is forwarded to the stan eval officer and a rating order is published. The only exceptions are certain expert ranger ratings (ie edible plants, firearms and rope skills require special instructors) and the rope skills of the ranger advanced rating.
I amnot sure anymore, but in years passed the squadron commander could sign off on the R/2 sheet skills even if they are not an R/1 or above.
The proposal does not allow for wearing the tab if you did not go to Hawk. The tabs - according to the proposal - are authorized ONLY for those who graduate from Hawk, not anyone else.
[/quote]
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 19, 2008, 12:55:16 AM
Unlike HAWK and NBB, they need no advertising, and their bling only goes to drive divisions between those that went and everyone else.
Strange...I got one cadet out of 38 who went to NBB and wears his beret.......I can't find this dividion you speak of.
But I got a lot of younger cadets who want to go the NBB as soon as they can.
QuoteThe proposal does not allow for wearing the tab if you did not go to Hawk. The tabs - according to the proposal - are authorized ONLY for those who graduate from Hawk, not anyone else.
I dont see it that way
QuotePROPOSED NEC ACTION:
That the National Executive Committee codify the previous National Board action and
request Air Force approval to authorize the following items for wear with the BDU and field
uniforms only.
Like 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria. The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling" HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.
Quote3. Speaking of tabs, the medic tabs really serve no purpose because CAP does not have a medic qualification.
...6 of one 1/2 dozen of another...they dont have a Ranger qualification either...just one at HMRS, if you are going ot acknowledge one is ok you might as well authorize them all.
mk
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 19, 2008, 06:35:02 AM
QuoteThe proposal does not allow for wearing the tab if you did not go to Hawk. The tabs - according to the proposal - are authorized ONLY for those who graduate from Hawk, not anyone else.
I dont see it that way
QuotePROPOSED NEC ACTION:
That the National Executive Committee codify the previous National Board action and
request Air Force approval to authorize the following items for wear with the BDU and field
uniforms only.
Like 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria. The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling" HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.
Quote3. Speaking of tabs, the medic tabs really serve no purpose because CAP does not have a medic qualification.
...6 of one 1/2 dozen of another...they dont have a Ranger qualification either...just one at HMRS, if you are going ot acknowledge one is ok you might as well authorize them all.
mk
Actually, the Air Force, in an AFI I read once, refers to employment of "CAP Ranger Teams" in support of SAR missions. Apparently, all ground teams are "Rangers" as far as the USAF is willing to consider.
^ A throwback to old terminology. I would even go as far as saying that pub was not updated as CAP lost its old "Ranger Teams".
PAWG has always wanted to export the ranger program.
they have exported it to florida, and the North west
Quote from: jaybird512 on April 18, 2008, 06:48:44 AM
No offense to anyone specifically, but there sure has been a lot of whining on this board about berets, ranger tabs, and other similar paraphernalia.
I don't see why we can't have an "elite" program (for lack of a better term) and let those people wear something that actually looks "tough".
. . .
When shaved and shaped properly, a beret looks good, and I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.
"Remember, it's not how you play, it's how you look."
I was a Special Forces soldier for 20 years. If you want to look elite, go to the PX/BX and buy up all the bling you can find. If you want to be something, then be one of the types of people you mention above. You have a 99% chance of not making it, but at least you'll have tried. DO NOT try to equate the well meaning but flacid programs of the Civil Air Patrol to real warriors. You'll get laughed at every time.
I already have a REAL problem with PAWG using the term Ranger. They are not rangers. Not even close. I don't think that 90% of them could survive the Mountain Phase at Camp Merrill.
If you want to be "elite" (which we never referred to ourselves as) then go do something that might reflect it.
BTW, I never shaved a beret in my entire career. That was for RASHs (Rear Area [Stuff] Heads). BTW, mine was green, in case you didn't catch the Special Forces reference above. Sorry I'm being harsh, but that's the way it really is. This crap that the NEC is trying to push through is people trying to be someone without paying the price.
Lt Col Hawkeye Pierce
Master Parachutist
Special Forces Soldier and Special Forces Officer
Former Demolition Sergeant
Former Communications Sergeant
Former Intelligence Sergeant
Former Team Sergeant
Former Detachment Commander
Master Military Freefall Parachutist (with combat jump)
Pathfinder
Sniper
German Linguist
Spanish Linguist
(Other Stuff Not To Be Listed Here)
Gunner C,
I would agree with you if anyone was trying to equate NBB or HMRC with U.S. Army Rangers, Special Forces, or USAF PJs.
That seems to be the hang up.
A HMRC Ranger....is just that a HMRC Ranger and nothing more.
^ Funny, the Ranger grade says "Ranger", not "Hawk Mountain Ranger". You can earn Ranger grade and bling and badges without ever stepping foot on HAWK MTN. That is the hang up. Once this goes National, everyone and their mother will be able to put "Ranger Third Class" tabs on their BDU's. Have you seen what you need to do to sew on the ranger bling?? Pushups, a run, and a SQD Commanders signature. (Man, that really qualifies someone!)
I have my opinions of the Hawk mountain program, but I must wonder. What qualifies a "Ranger" program as an insult to military rangers. After all The National park service has rangers, and the term was used long before Darby organized his rangers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger)
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 20, 2008, 03:02:57 AM
I have my opinions of the Hawk mountain program, but I must wonder. What qualifies a "Ranger" program as an insult to military rangers. After all The National park service has rangers, and the term was used long before Darby organized his rangers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger)
The typical NPS ranger doesn't wear BDUs and associate themselves with a military service and it's members don't run around with tac vests/LBE while wearing berets. It is the military association combined with the term ranger that make some people uncomfortable with the terms use in CAP. Also, the insufferable attitude some graduates come home with doesn't help either.
Here we go again. ::)
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 20, 2008, 02:30:43 AM
^ Funny, the Ranger grade says "Ranger", not "Hawk Mountain Ranger". You can earn Ranger grade and bling and badges without ever stepping foot on HAWK MTN. That is the hang up. Once this goes National, everyone and their mother will be able to put "Ranger Third Class" tabs on their BDU's. Have you seen what you need to do to sew on the ranger bling?? Pushups, a run, and a SQD Commanders signature. (Man, that really qualifies someone!)
Same thing can be said about any qualification.......so again I say....what's the problem?
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 19, 2008, 06:35:02 AM
QuoteThe proposal does not allow for wearing the tab if you did not go to Hawk. The tabs - according to the proposal - are authorized ONLY for those who graduate from Hawk, not anyone else.
I dont see it that way
QuotePROPOSED NEC ACTION:
That the National Executive Committee codify the previous National Board action and
request Air Force approval to authorize the following items for wear with the BDU and field
uniforms only.
The background on the agenda item says:
QuoteIn August 2006 the National Board approved a motion to authorize members attending
Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain to wear any awarded uniform items or headgear with the
BDUs or CAP field uniform.
It does not allow for wearing of ranger bling by any other method, only by actually attend Hawk Mtn. The folks in FL would not be able to wear the ranger bling since the did not go to Hawk Mtn for the training.
QuoteLike 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria. The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling" HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.
The NB approved the ranger bling for graduating from Hawk Mtn, not getting a ranger rating. So, no matter what criteria HMRS/PA wing come up with, if you don't actually graduate from Hawk, you can't wear the bling.
Quote from: arajca on April 20, 2008, 05:30:53 AM
The NB approved the ranger bling for graduating from Hawk Mtn, not getting a ranger rating. So, no matter what criteria HMRS/PA wing come up with, if you don't actually graduate from Hawk, you can't wear the bling.
'round here, rules were made to be broken, to spite the applicable block in Section III of the CAPF 2b. ???
Quote from: jaybird512 on April 18, 2008, 06:48:44 AM
No offense to anyone specifically, but there sure has been a lot of whining on this board about berets, ranger tabs, and other similar paraphernalia.
I don't see why we can't have an "elite" program (for lack of a better term) and let those people wear something that actually looks "tough".
Heaven forbid.
We're stuck with cheesy smurf blue patches and grey slides and there doesn't seem to be much we can do about it. The USAFAUX advocates may flame me, but at least the new corporate white/blues is a step toward a clean, professional looking uniform without all the lettering everywhere. When shaved and shaped properly, a beret looks good, and I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.
Everyone complains about low standards in CAP, but when someone raises the bar and wants to award people for going the distance they complain. Give it a rest and recognize those guys for what they're doing. I know that if I ever crash, I'd want them to come looking for me...
On that note, I like the way that our GSARSS here in TXWG do it, nice and simple. They wear solid black ball caps with their GT badge on it. Looks good.
/rant
We do. It's called PJOC and no "special" uniform items are authorized for its graduates aside from a patch and you know what.... That's why
they're elite and not Hawk Mountain. Because the elite know they're elite and don't feel the need to shove it in everyone else's faces.
Elitism is in the way you are treated by others because of what you do for others. It is not the way you treat yourself compared to how you treat others.
QuoteThe background on the agenda item says:
Quote
In August 2006 the National Board approved a motion to authorize members attending
Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain to wear any awarded uniform items or headgear with the
BDUs or CAP field uniform.
It does not allow for wearing of ranger bling by any other method, only by actually attend Hawk Mtn. The folks in FL would not be able to wear the ranger bling since the did not go to Hawk Mtn for the training.
Quote
Like 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria. The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling" HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.
The NB approved the ranger bling for graduating from Hawk Mtn, not getting a ranger rating. So, no matter what criteria HMRS/PA wing come up with, if you don't actually graduate from Hawk, you can't wear the bling.
I still have to says its now both...maybe under the poorly worded NB ruling its only from graduating the school, but the way the NEC seems worded it says "...authorize the following items for wear:"..it doesnt say "...authorize the following for wear only if you graduated from the NCSA..."
QuoteThat's why they're elite and not Hawk Mountain. Because the elite know they're elite and don't feel the need to shove it in everyone else's faces.
I have to call no joy here.....not to seem like getting into a peeing match. PJOC is no more elite than HMRS, Blue Beret or any of the other "xxOC's"
PJ's are elite. A one week course of PT, rappeling, land nav & teamwork/leadership no matter who teaches the course does not make you elite. Not to mention that other than the "learning" experience you receive no qualification from it.
QuoteElitism is in the way you are treated by others because of what you do for others. It is not the way you treat yourself compared to how you treat others.
I may have missed the memo that sayed treat PJOC grads as the elite of CAP. The same argument against HMRS applies to everyone else: they accomplished nothing more than go to a school for a week, they may have had personal gains, realized things about themself and accomplished things they didnt think they could do....that doesnt make them special or elite. A blind cadet that makes it thru encampemnt could hold the same standard....
I'd say the best argument you can make (mind you all I dont disagree either) is that PJOC grads are told to make nothing special of themselves afterwards...something that seems to fall by the wayside somehow with HMRS. PJOC bragging rights...more in line with the quite proffesional theory of SpecOps....elite though, thats a bit of a stretch.
I would have to agree/lean with one of the previous posts (I think it was Stonewall) make a true elite unit of people that meet some serious qualifications in the SAR areana and have them available as "special teams" I would be willing to call them elite...if all you have to do is show up at an activity and not go home early...thats not going to cut it.....
in sarmed's ideal world "elite CAP team members would be:
Probabally not cadets (at least under 18)
They would hold qualifications/capabilites like:
Hold technical level training acording to the NFPA 1670 giuidelines for most of the likely encountered search environments...Rope, wilderness, collapse, water
EMT
HAZMAT ops level
be 72 hours self sustaining
be capable of operting in most any environment hot/cold , wet/arid, mountainous etc
be able to do things like parachute, fast rope, scuba, small boat operations
radio communications
air to ground coordination (ie FAC)
cross trained as a/c observers/scanners
...thats as likely as any of the assorted schools become "elite" training programs
mk
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 20, 2008, 08:29:33 AM
in sarmed's ideal world "elite CAP team members would be:
Probabally not cadets (at least under 18)
They would hold qualifications/capabilites like:
Hold technical level training acording to the NFPA 1670 giuidelines for most of the likely encountered search environments...Rope, wilderness, collapse, water
EMT
HAZMAT ops level
be 72 hours self sustaining
be capable of operting in most any environment hot/cold , wet/arid, mountainous etc
be able to do things like parachute, fast rope, scuba, small boat operations
radio communications
air to ground coordination (ie FAC)
cross trained as a/c observers/scanners
...thats as likely as any of the assorted schools become "elite" training programs
mk
I guess other than not having the NFPA stuff and the parachute, fast rope, scuba, small boat operations, I should be an elitist......cause I have every thing else on the list done.......
WOW!!! :-* George and I agree on something....
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 20, 2008, 06:04:54 AMWe do. It's called PJOC and no "special" uniform items are authorized for its graduates aside from a patch and you know what.... That's why they're elite and not Hawk Mountain. Because the elite know they're elite and don't feel the need to shove it in everyone else's faces.
Elitism is in the way you are treated by others because of what you do for others. It is not the way you treat yourself compared to how you treat others.
I wish I knew where... I went back and found something I wrote a year ago in the CAP Rangers (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1936.0) thread on this very subject.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 18, 2007, 07:35:29 PM
I think PJOC is an excellent example of my original message regarding elitism and CAP's Ranger program.
Prior to every special activity getting an NCSA patch for their right shoulder, PJOC was the ideal "hooah course" without a single bell or whistle. PJOC is NOT an emergency services course, however, I think most would agree that there are aspects of PJOC that are beneficial to field work.
Over the past 15 years as a senior working directly with cadets at the squadron level, I have had as many as 20 of my cadets go to PJOC. None of them ever came back with a single elitist attitude. There wasn't even a title for them other than "PJOC graduate". Heck, I even had an [advanced] PJOC failure come back. Talk about a true humbling experience. No berets, no special badges, and not a single chip on their shoulder. In fact, more than anything, I think it was a gut check and humbling experience. If the young teenager had any sort of swagger before hand, for no reason, they certainly had a reason upon their return. However, I have yet to see one.
I remember PJOC giving out a Pararescue lapel pin or tie tack; not even allowed on the uniform. Just a small thing to bring home and throw on a book bag or on the bookshelf.
No uniform accoutrements, not even a high speed title like "Ranger". I think that speaks for itself.
I think it's great to have a school that deals intensely with CAP's emergency services missions -- hell, I think we need everyone involved in those, especially with the onset of NIMS training! -- but this whole "elite" idea is superfluous, especially when it could be ANYONE who gets the 3 a.m. call to deploy. ICs aren't looking for someone who wears a bib scarf and a patch. (Those items aren't noted on anyone's callout roster, are they?)
Specializing in a given CAP mission is fine, but anything that feeds a member's ego in some way should be handled differently than with numerous additional uniform devices, especially when they're ridiculous to begin with. The ribbon on the blues ought to be enough. There's too many BDU patches out there as it is, and CAP really needs to clean up the utility uniforms.
Interestingly, I don't think I've seen too many Florida "rangers." Hawk, a few...
If any school should, shouldn't it be our National Emergency Services Academy that should get such special consideration?
Quote from: RiverAux on April 20, 2008, 04:02:34 PM
If any school should, shouldn't it be our National Emergency Services Academy that should get such special consideration?
NESA is probably one of the best activities as far as getting a recognizable skill set, with an official piece of bling. Go to NESA and you walk out with things such as a ground team badge and observer wings. And that's excatly the way it should be. Oh, and don't forget the NCSA patch, but that's optional.
Hawk should model itself similar to the Army Mountain Warfare School (https://www.benning.army.mil/AMWS/) that has summer and winter courses that are 14 days each. Learn lots of specialized skills associated with being an Infantry soldier, yet there's no bling attached.
To be clear, I wasn't proposing that NESA get extra bling, but just that if any NCSA should get extra, that it should be that one rather than Hawk and especially over blue beret.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 20, 2008, 04:28:44 PM
To be clear, I wasn't proposing that NESA get extra bling, but just that if any NCSA should get extra, that it should be that one rather than Hawk and especially over blue beret.
Understood what you were saying, and in case I didn't make myself clear, I was agreeing with you. Maybe I wasn't clear ??? but yeah, I agreed with you. Amazing, we agree on something and it throws us out of whack.
I guess NESA isn't really an NCSA. Disregard that.
Quote from: Gunner C on April 19, 2008, 11:11:05 PM
Quote from: jaybird512 on April 18, 2008, 06:48:44 AM
No offense to anyone specifically, but there sure has been a lot of whining on this board about berets, ranger tabs, and other similar paraphernalia.
I don't see why we can't have an "elite" program (for lack of a better term) and let those people wear something that actually looks "tough".
. . .
When shaved and shaped properly, a beret looks good, and I think we should treat our hawk and NBB the way the RM treats SF, Ranger, PJ, and other tough schools.
"Remember, it's not how you play, it's how you look."
I was a Special Forces soldier for 20 years. If you want to look elite, go to the PX/BX and buy up all the bling you can find. If you want to be something, then be one of the types of people you mention above. You have a 99% chance of not making it, but at least you'll have tried. DO NOT try to equate the well meaning but flacid programs of the Civil Air Patrol to real warriors. You'll get laughed at every time.
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make that reference.
CAP has no programs that come remotely close to the RM's special forces/special ops and was not the point of the post. We do have our own programs though that serve our needs.
Quote from: jaybird512 on April 20, 2008, 06:02:54 PMI was wondering how long it would take for someone to make that reference.
CAP has no programs that come remotely close to the RM's special forces/special ops and was not the point of the post. We do have our own programs though that serve our needs.
True. And if anyone is interested, the issue of comparing CAP Rangers to RM Special Ops was discussed in this thread last year. (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1936.0)
All of this discussion is great, but in August, I have a very good feeling that all this bling will be approved.
So, just get ready for your cadets to come to you with the Ranger Third Class paperwork in their hand, and asking you for your signature. The following week they will be wearing a "Ranger 3rd Class" badge on their BDU's and those that attended NBB will be wearing their berets everywhere.
It would have been nice to get away from adding more bling to the Uniform, but that is not our leaders intentions.
I just don't understand why a patch is not good enough for all these people. I have nothing wrong with the NCSA NBB and HAWK patches (when they are worn in accordance with 39-1 of course).
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 20, 2008, 06:08:34 PMI just don't understand why a patch is not good enough for all these people. I have nothing wrong with the NCSA NBB and HAWK patches (when they are worn in accordance with 39-1 of course).
Human psychology.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 20, 2008, 06:08:34 PM
I just don't understand why a patch is not good enough for all these people. I have nothing wrong with the NCSA NBB and HAWK patches (when they are worn in accordance with 39-1 of course).
I concur. I want to attend HMRS as a Senior...but other than the patch and an anotation in my CAPF45B, know one would know I went.
Someone did bring up the Medic Tab....get ready for it. Read the new NIMS qual...a ground team MUST have a medical person on the crew. So we better start training them!
Quote from: sarmed1 on April 20, 2008, 08:14:23 AM
QuoteThe background on the agenda item says:
Quote
In August 2006 the National Board approved a motion to authorize members attending
Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain to wear any awarded uniform items or headgear with the
BDUs or CAP field uniform.
It does not allow for wearing of ranger bling by any other method, only by actually attend Hawk Mtn. The folks in FL would not be able to wear the ranger bling since the did not go to Hawk Mtn for the training.
Quote
Like 39-1 it only states where and how to place the items...other publications (in regards to the current regs) stipulate the award criteria. The NEC action is only to authorize the "bling" HMRS/PA wing needs to come up with the criteria on how its earned/authorized.
The NB approved the ranger bling for graduating from Hawk Mtn, not getting a ranger rating. So, no matter what criteria HMRS/PA wing come up with, if you don't actually graduate from Hawk, you can't wear the bling.
I still have to says its now both...maybe under the poorly worded NB ruling its only from graduating the school, but the way the NEC seems worded it says "...authorize the following items for wear:"..it doesnt say "...authorize the following for wear only if you graduated from the NCSA..."
Here is the "poorly worded" NB action:
Quote from: National Board Meeting minutes August 2006ANOTHER RESTATEMENT OF THE AMENDED MOTION: All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
AMENDED MOTION CARRIED
Where is national Hawk Mountain training offered besides the Hawk Mtn NCSA? Following your logic, if I do the same training as NBB, I can wear the beret - even if I do not go to the activity.
Ultimately we will have to wait and see what the NEC ruling says. ie...if it passes if the wording change to 39-1 says only the following items are authorized for wear on the uniform, or upon completion of the NCSA the following awards are authorized to be worn. Based on my experience with the program the push is for option 1: not limited to only the NCSA participants.
mk
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on April 20, 2008, 09:49:21 PM
Someone did bring up the Medic Tab....get ready for it. Read the new NIMS qual...a ground team MUST have a medical person on the crew. So we better start training them!
Not having the NIMS requirements in front of me, what exactly do they call for in "medical Training"? First Aid or First responder?
The NIMS requirements just say that each ground team would have a "medic".
The kicker here will be CAP's liability. Up till now CAP has been saying we don't have medics....we can only perform life saving first aid that falls under the Good Samaritan Statutes.
Now we got FEMA saying if you have ground teams you got to have "medics" (i.e. a person who's job is to provide medical assistance to some one.) Even if it is just Red Cross Basic First Aid....we are crossing over the line between lay person and professional provider.
This particular standard more than any thing else could spell the end of CAP Ground Teams.
^^The February 2008 proposed FEMA typing requires a Land SAR Team to have at least one First Responder, who has additional remote or wilderness-type training, per squad (a team is made up of one or more squads).
Mike
...one thing I would be happy to see them put in is a phase out statement... basically eliminating the uniform bling upon phase in of the ABU. They (HMRS) have until that time to develop a "Ranger" specific badge that conforms to the AF standard for the ABU.
Why a HMRS badge (I know one more piece of Ranger Bling) mostly because I think if you dont create something for HMRS, this debate will go on forever from each side. Hawk will want orange stuff as long as its not approved, once its approved all the anti-bling people will campaign for abolishment of it. IT WILL NEVER END WITHOUT COMPROMISE!
That would solve most of these problems once and for all and we can go back to worrying imnportant stuff like training and competency without people getting their panties bunched over unimportant issues like I can or you cant wear this cool or not cool thing.
ie the NIMS requirements and how is anyone going to accomplish that! (sorry just couldnt resist the tie in to the last 3 posts)
mk
Personally, i believe that NCSA's should have only ONE Bling item. Shoulder patch not counting.
I.E. Beret should have the Beret
Hawk should have somthing they want (just not ranger stuff, cause ranger is another thing of its own)
Someone said it earlier, authorize the beret and change the flash to signify the NCSA.
In reading the proposal, all the NEC would be doing is legitimizing what Rangers and NBB have been doing for years.
It's not a big deal: if the stipulation is that these items be worn at the appropriate activity consider that NBB is a once-a-year affair, and the Rangers are usually doing their thing so far out in the boonies that nobody's going to know anyway.
Quote from: sardak on April 21, 2008, 05:37:50 AM
^^The February 2008 proposed FEMA typing requires a Land SAR Team to have at least one First Responder, who has additional remote or wilderness-type training, per squad (a team is made up of one or more squads).
Mike
Yup...so things are gonna get interesting.
However I do not think this will be the *end* of Ground Teams, but it may severely limit who can serve on them and such. Also, not that that Land SAR reqs were also talking about....hold on....PHYSICAL FITNESS REQUIREMENTS!
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on April 21, 2008, 02:22:51 PM
Quote from: sardak on April 21, 2008, 05:37:50 AM
^^The February 2008 proposed FEMA typing requires a Land SAR Team to have at least one First Responder, who has additional remote or wilderness-type training, per squad (a team is made up of one or more squads).
Mike
Yup...so things are gonna get interesting.
However I do not think this will be the *end* of Ground Teams, but it may severely limit who can serve on them and such. Also, not that that Land SAR reqs were also talking about....hold on....PHYSICAL FITNESS REQUIREMENTS!
I might be wrong, but the fitness requirements were left up to the individual agencies (?)
I saw the NIMS doc a couple of years ago, when it was in the proposal stage, and it was a little vague.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on April 21, 2008, 07:38:41 AM
Personally, i believe that NCSA's should have only ONE Bling item. Shoulder patch not counting.
I.E. Beret should have the Beret
Hawk should have somthing they want (just not ranger stuff, cause ranger is another thing of its own)
Someone said it earlier, authorize the beret and change the flash to signify the NCSA.
You do know that there are over 20 different NCSAs, right?
And if you count all the different iterations of the same school (like the multiple flight academies or all the different courses at NESA), the number is closer to 40.
So, you're OK with over 20 different flavors of bling?
Really?
Just checking.
Quote from: Ned on April 21, 2008, 04:08:55 PM
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on April 21, 2008, 07:38:41 AM
Personally, i believe that NCSA's should have only ONE Bling item. Shoulder patch not counting.
I.E. Beret should have the Beret
Hawk should have something they want (just not ranger stuff, cause ranger is another thing of its own)
Someone said it earlier, authorize the beret and change the flash to signify the NCSA.
You do know that there are over 20 different NCSAs, right?
And if you count all the different iterations of the same school (like the multiple flight academies or all the different courses at NESA), the number is closer to 40.
So, you're OK with over 20 different flavors of bling?
Really?
Just checking.
I think that NESA should demand special bling if Hawk gets all of this approved.
Why should we grant all of this crap when plenty of other activities knew better then to issue junk that wasn't authorized? Why should the activity that scoffed at the rules be allowed "special" privileges?
I don't see how the NB could stop any special bling for other National Activities if they approve this.
Frankly, CAP needs to get back to the main Air Force uniform concept -- "clean uniform." **
That was the philosophy behind the 1992-93 blues redesign, a redesign that really just restated what the Army had in mind for a separate Air Force, pre-1947, a "plain blue suit."
No patches. Things became ribbons that once were badges.
Same goes for the utility uniforms. There's too many patches when badges that mirror the blues badges should be used. There's too little uniformity in our heraldry, compared to the mothership.
I would advocate a wholesale cleanup, but that's beyond my pay grade.
** Of course, the Air Force needs to get back to it, too. McPeak wasn't all wrong, just partially.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 20, 2008, 02:52:55 PM
WOW!!! :-* George and I agree on something....
Quote from: afgeo4 on April 20, 2008, 06:04:54 AMWe do. It's called PJOC and no "special" uniform items are authorized for its graduates aside from a patch and you know what.... That's why they're elite and not Hawk Mountain. Because the elite know they're elite and don't feel the need to shove it in everyone else's faces.
Elitism is in the way you are treated by others because of what you do for others. It is not the way you treat yourself compared to how you treat others.
I wish I knew where... I went back and found something I wrote a year ago in the CAP Rangers (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1936.0) thread on this very subject.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 18, 2007, 07:35:29 PM
I think PJOC is an excellent example of my original message regarding elitism and CAP's Ranger program.
Prior to every special activity getting an NCSA patch for their right shoulder, PJOC was the ideal "hooah course" without a single bell or whistle. PJOC is NOT an emergency services course, however, I think most would agree that there are aspects of PJOC that are beneficial to field work.
Over the past 15 years as a senior working directly with cadets at the squadron level, I have had as many as 20 of my cadets go to PJOC. None of them ever came back with a single elitist attitude. There wasn't even a title for them other than "PJOC graduate". Heck, I even had an [advanced] PJOC failure come back. Talk about a true humbling experience. No berets, no special badges, and not a single chip on their shoulder. In fact, more than anything, I think it was a gut check and humbling experience. If the young teenager had any sort of swagger before hand, for no reason, they certainly had a reason upon their return. However, I have yet to see one.
I remember PJOC giving out a Pararescue lapel pin or tie tack; not even allowed on the uniform. Just a small thing to bring home and throw on a book bag or on the bookshelf.
No uniform accoutrements, not even a high speed title like "Ranger". I think that speaks for itself.
FYI: I'm doing a print screen on this and framing it on my wall... Who knows when or if it'll happen again?
I just think this is a good reflection on the cadre of the activities. PJ's who silently go above and beyond each and every day and CAP "Rangers" who boldly wear their bling each day while using their training maybe once or twice in their careers.
Quote from: Ned on April 21, 2008, 04:08:55 PM
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on April 21, 2008, 07:38:41 AM
Personally, i believe that NCSA's should have only ONE Bling item. Shoulder patch not counting.
I.E. Beret should have the Beret
Hawk should have somthing they want (just not ranger stuff, cause ranger is another thing of its own)
Someone said it earlier, authorize the beret and change the flash to signify the NCSA.
You do know that there are over 20 different NCSAs, right?
And if you count all the different iterations of the same school (like the multiple flight academies or all the different courses at NESA), the number is closer to 40.
So, you're OK with over 20 different flavors of bling?
Really?
Just checking.
Let me Clarify......ONE BERET, and then one Flash and pin for each of the NCSA's.
One Beret, One Flash and pin per beret. Thats all.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on April 22, 2008, 01:01:15 AM
Frankly, CAP needs to get back to the main Air Force uniform concept -- "clean uniform." **
That was the philosophy behind the 1992-93 blues redesign, a redesign that really just restated what the Army had in mind for a separate Air Force, pre-1947, a "plain blue suit."
Just got a new E-mail from the CMSAF.....the pre Mc [I can't say his name]ck uniform is coming back. No time line on it....just that they are kicking around the feed back from the Mitchel/Arnold uniform proposals.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 22, 2008, 05:20:02 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on April 22, 2008, 01:01:15 AM
Frankly, CAP needs to get back to the main Air Force uniform concept -- "clean uniform." **
That was the philosophy behind the 1992-93 blues redesign, a redesign that really just restated what the Army had in mind for a separate Air Force, pre-1947, a "plain blue suit."
Just got a new E-mail from the CMSAF.....the pre Mc [I can't say his name]ck uniform is coming back. No time line on it....just that they are kicking around the feed back from the Mitchel/Arnold uniform proposals.
Is this on the AF portal somehwere?
Quote from: lordmonar on April 22, 2008, 05:20:02 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on April 22, 2008, 01:01:15 AM
Frankly, CAP needs to get back to the main Air Force uniform concept -- "clean uniform." **
That was the philosophy behind the 1992-93 blues redesign, a redesign that really just restated what the Army had in mind for a separate Air Force, pre-1947, a "plain blue suit."
Just got a new E-mail from the CMSAF.....the pre Mc [I can't say his name]ck uniform is coming back. No time line on it....just that they are kicking around the feed back from the Mitchel/Arnold uniform proposals.
You mean the same exact uniform our cadets still wear? The blue version of Army greens... xcept they killed those too? I actually don't know if that's a good idea or not. I do think the fabrics need to be reworked and some new features added, but overall... it's not a bad look, albeit a lil bit "I Love Genie".
Drifting.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on April 22, 2008, 04:33:58 AM
Let me Clarify......ONE BERET, and then one Flash and pin for each of the NCSA's.
One Beret, One Flash and pin per beret. Thats all.
Not a bad idea. One beret, activity designated by different flashes and pinned on insignia. Put it out there like that, "Activity may designate a beret with a flash, a crest, or combination thereof."
One activity might want to only go with a crest whereas another might wish to use only a flash, and a third might use a flash and crest together.
The Hawk people could use a basic flash, and then different color crests to designate progression. A bronze crest for some lower levels, silver for intermediate, a gold one for advanced.
NBB could use what they've been doing for years. A beret with only a crest. They don't seem to have any levels, so what they have works.
Hawk ought to use a single patch with maybe rockers for the levels instead of a patch,
and tabs,
and a hat,
and a belt,
and a scarf,
and whistles, etc.....
I would suggest no rank insignia at all, regardless of activity.
Just a few ideas to clean up the bling. You'd only be looking in one place to figure out which activity, instead of all over the uniform.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 18, 2008, 04:15:11 AM
^ I see you are missing your Merritt badge for being so freaking gey.
hey hey now this is still a Civil Air Patrol forum and there must be respect for your fellow members and officers, if you were to say that in real life you'd be punished at wing level. Respectfully check yourself.
^ I meant gRey....grey. Stonewall is like in his 30's. He's OLD. >:D
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 18, 2008, 02:47:40 PM
so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??
This is the perfect answer for what I would like to explain. If you have gone to ranger school.(i.e. army) you wear the the tab for as long as your in the army. As for the hats being rolled that's pride which they should have not many people go to hawk or PJOC. Also hawk doesn't have a special beret they have the orange safety hats and white belt and safety shirt which makes since so everybdy and their brother can see them. Which is what Search and Rescue is all about. Not running in camo and black shirts which were designed to distort a persons figure to confuse the enemy. All I'm saying is the highly reflective gear looks good and has proven to be more effective.
I have a question here in the NEC Agenda Item 5 page 17 paragraph three first,second,third,and fourth sentences. it says and I qoute "Orange baseball cap-worn with black squadron numerals. Permanent staff members will wear orange hat with red keystone. Expert rangers will wear orange baseball cap with balck keystone. Cadet and Senior officers wear cloth grade insignia on the keystone when wearing the BDU uniform." now what do the "enlisted ranks" wear on their hat??
^ Nothing.
Quote from: colorguard_rifle on April 22, 2008, 10:35:07 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 18, 2008, 02:47:40 PM
so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??
This is the perfect answer for what I would like to explain. If you have gone to ranger school.(i.e. army) you wear the the tab for as long as your in the army. As for the hats being rolled that's pride which they should have not many people go to hawk or PJOC. Also hawk doesn't have a special beret they have the orange safety hats and white belt and safety shirt which makes since so everybdy and their brother can see them. Which is what Search and Rescue is all about. Not running in camo and black shirts which were designed to distort a persons figure to confuse the enemy. All I'm saying is the highly reflective gear looks good and has proven to be more effective.
If it's a good thing, then let's put everyone on ground teams in an orange hat - not just the boys & girls from Hawk.
GC
Quote from: colorguard_rifle on April 22, 2008, 10:35:07 PM
Also hawk doesn't have a special beret they have the orange safety hats and white belt and safety shirt which makes since so everybdy and their brother can see them. Which is what Search and Rescue is all about. Not running in camo and black shirts which were designed to distort a persons figure to confuse the enemy. All I'm saying is the highly reflective gear looks good and has proven to be more effective.
Also note that all GTM in the field are to be wearing a reflective vest over BDU's anyway.
Now. Tell me why HM needs to have so many ways to say that "I was at hawk mountain!" I understand the need for bling, I like a bit of it myself, but there comes to be a point that it is too garish. Hawk mountain goes that far.
Quote from: Gunner C on April 23, 2008, 12:06:10 AM
Quote from: colorguard_rifle on April 22, 2008, 10:35:07 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on April 18, 2008, 02:47:40 PM
so a ranger in a streight leg infantry unit would, or would not wear his tab??
This is the perfect answer for what I would like to explain. If you have gone to ranger school.(i.e. army) you wear the the tab for as long as your in the army. As for the hats being rolled that's pride which they should have not many people go to hawk or PJOC. Also hawk doesn't have a special beret they have the orange safety hats and white belt and safety shirt which makes since so everybdy and their brother can see them. Which is what Search and Rescue is all about. Not running in camo and black shirts which were designed to distort a persons figure to confuse the enemy. All I'm saying is the highly reflective gear looks good and has proven to be more effective.
If it's a good thing, then let's put everyone on ground teams in an orange hat - not just the boys & girls from Hawk.
GC
exactly what I mean too we need more reflective and save the camo for base ops.
Fixed quote - MIKE
CAP is not a SaR organization. It is a para-military organization affiliated with the Air Force that happens to do some SaR work, along with several other types of ES, which all tolled is only part of the mission.
Don't even for a minute tell me orange hats/shirts, and certainly not any of that other crap, is for safety. It's not. It's to make people feel special, which that are not. And it's a gross & intentional violation of uniform regs which invalidates insurance coverage, so in fact is much more dangerous for the member in the long run. And not remotely approved by the AF, I might add.
PJOC is an orientation course that kids pay to go attend. It's not a major accomplishment. People aren't standing there for graduation on a broken leg they've been rucking on for weeks. They aren't under min weight standards cause they've barely eaten in weeks. They haven't been taken to the brink of death, refused to quit, and then emerged hardened. Neither hawk mountain or PJOC is anything like such a forging process, and they need to quit ripping things off from ranger school (like rolled hats) cause they don't remotely deserve it for playing around in the woods with some kids. Grow up & find your place in the world, that's my message to them.
Far as Blue beret, I'll say again, it's a nice cadet activity, but that's it. It's big airshow where you turn off ELTs, direct aircraft, and look at the shiny stuff. That is not something in need of a beret.
IMO, all NCSAs should be reduced to a rocker tab, pick two, worn over the wing patch (if worn) on BDU/BBDU only.
Quote from: DNall on April 23, 2008, 05:09:24 PM
Far as Blue beret, I'll say again, it's a nice cadet activity, but that's it. It's big airshow where you turn off ELTs, direct aircraft, and look at the shiny stuff. That is not something in need of a beret.
There's a lot more history to that beret than you might know. http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm
You know why cadets want to wear this stuff? Because a long time ago, some senior member that cadets looked up to told them it was the cool thing to do. It happens all the time, young people are very impressionable. Look at my experience, I convinced cadets under my command for years that it is better to wear less and demonstrate your knowledge and skills through actions rather than accoutrements.
I see it all the time. See how often a squadron's cadets take after their leadership. It's a natural occurrence. I just hope the senior members leading such cadets are telling them the right things that are cool.
Is it not possible to show your knowledge and skills through actions......AND still have the accourtrements?
Sure....just pinning on a GTM or Wings does not make your a Ground Pounding Wizard nor a Sierra Hotel Fighter Ace....but why not some bling?
I agree the Hawk Mountain folks go too far....but we can compromise.
Sure unit identity is important....but again I say....if you want all your squadron members wearing the same hat.....you tell them all to wear the same hat. It's that simple.
If you have gone out of your way to develope a program that takes the standard GT training to a higher level.....additional recognition may be warented.
Should we alllow one wing to get extra bling just because....no of course not. But we can certainly give tools to the wing commanders so they can motivate all their personnel.
Bling works for that. It does not spin everyone's clock. But you would not ask a carpenter to refrain from using a particular tool because you don't like it.
For those who think we are "stealing" the glory of real rangers because we want to call our ground teams rangers.....well I can see where you are going with that...but to be truely honest you will then have to go after all our pilots for calling them selves "mission pilots" because they are stealing the glory of "real USAF" pilots.
No one has a lock on the cool factor....and being anti-bling can be just as arrogant as being a bling hog.
^^^Two different thought processes here. I'd say mine is better, you'll say yours is. I know one thing, mine costs less.
Quote from: CASH172 on April 23, 2008, 05:21:27 PM
Quote from: DNall on April 23, 2008, 05:09:24 PM
Far as Blue beret, I'll say again, it's a nice cadet activity, but that's it. It's big airshow where you turn off ELTs, direct aircraft, and look at the shiny stuff. That is not something in need of a beret.
There's a lot more history to that beret than you might know. http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm
The NBB NCSA bears little resemblance to the original program. Today it is nothing more than a UDF exercise with the chance to look at some really great aircraft. It also provides the chance for cadets to practice their leadership skills. But to think of it as some kind of high speed, hard core program that produces super troops is just wishful thinking. Be content with the NCSA patch and let it go at that.
Quote from: CASH172 on April 23, 2008, 05:21:27 PM
Quote from: DNall on April 23, 2008, 05:09:24 PM
Far as Blue beret, I'll say again, it's a nice cadet activity, but that's it. It's big airshow where you turn off ELTs, direct aircraft, and look at the shiny stuff. That is not something in need of a beret.
There's a lot more history to that beret than you might know. http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm
I know what the history is. We've always done it doesn't make for good justification.
I got no problem with a blue beret in uniform, I think it looks fine. The issue is this one event is in no way deserving of such a distinction. Which only serves to inspire every other yahoo (hawk) to want to wear whatever silly thing they come up with.
As a long time cadet programs officer, this is right on:
Quote from: Stonewall on April 23, 2008, 05:25:06 PM
You know why cadets want to wear this stuff? Because a long time ago, some senior member that cadets looked up to told them it was the cool thing to do. It happens all the time, young people are very impressionable. Look at my experience, I convinced cadets under my command for years that it is better to wear less and demonstrate your knowledge and skills through actions rather than accoutrements.
I see it all the time. See how often a squadron's cadets take after their leadership. It's a natural occurrence. I just hope the senior members leading such cadets are telling them the right things that are cool.
You'd have to have "cool" senior members for that to be the case, which might be a problem at times.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 23, 2008, 05:42:02 PM
No one has a lock on the cool factor....and being anti-bling can be just as arrogant as being a bling hog.
I'm not completely against items for the right reason, and when the degree of accomplishment is sufficient to warrant it in the real world, not just cause I have a shortage of people willing to do something. However, that bling needs to be understated, and within the example set for us by the AF. And, it can't ever be a locally made up or stretching the limits of the reg to justify item.
Try rewarding people with responsibility once in a while, or put them in for a commendation, give them a coin, pat them on the back & say thanks, pull them up in front of the formation & shake their hand. You don't need shiny badges & funny hats or color explosion patch covered girl scout uniforms to motivate people. For as much as that motivates some people, it demotivates a lot of people that have to stand next to the monstrosity.
Quote from: DNall on April 23, 2008, 06:06:11 PMTry rewarding people with responsibility once in a while, or put them in for a commendation, give them a coin, pat them on the back & say thanks, pull them up in front of the formation & shake their hand.
Done all of the above and am living proof that it works. Even had 150 Ground Operations Coins made, some people on this site even have one or two. I had to sell a few to help pay for the cost of making them; but I awarded about 50 or so to deserving people; for things like heading a weekend FTX or being on staff at MER SAR College. Works way better than blingage.
And for the record, like DNall, I'm not opposed to some pieces of bling, even berets.
I too use all the tools in the bag to motivate and reward.
But the anti-bling attitude also sweeps into awarding ribbons and coins.
And as for following AF taditions an examples....they have this same argument over everthing from berets, SERE arcs, army combat patches, CIBs and a host of other things.
LOL..I will say this, last night I came home from our squadron meeting. I do not have Blues yet, and I am getting sick of the gray slacks/blue polo combo, so I wore my BDU's.
When I came home I was wearing my cap and my wife said "Is that always how you wear your hat"? I was like, ummm yeah, why?
Well she said I looked like a dork! LOL Then I looked in the mirror and I agreed! LOL
The way the CAP, and Air Force I guess, wears their BDU caps is silly.
Then I ranger-rolled it and she was like "now THAT looks good!".
I have to concur. Yes I will follow the regs, yes I will look like a goof, but the ranger-roll looks SOOOOOO much better.
When I was in college, I had a professor who would write on the top of a bad research paper the following statement: "This has an extraordinarily high Who Gives a S*** Factor." I think this thread may be approaching that point.
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on April 23, 2008, 08:03:29 PM
LOL..I will say this, last night I came home from our squadron meeting. I do not have Blues yet, and I am getting sick of the gray slacks/blue polo combo, so I wore my BDU's.
When I came home I was wearing my cap and my wife said "Is that always how you wear your hat"? I was like, ummm yeah, why?
Well she said I looked like a dork! LOL Then I looked in the mirror and I agreed! LOL
The way the CAP, and Air Force I guess, wears their BDU caps is silly.
Then I ranger-rolled it and she was like "now THAT looks good!".
And then what happened? :)
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on April 23, 2008, 08:03:29 PMThe way the CAP, and Air Force I guess, wears their BDU caps is silly.
You mean, the right way? No one in the AF, except maybe a former Army guy here and there (few and far between) ranger rolls their BDU cap.
Take picture of you in your BDU cap with and without a ranger roll, let us be the judge of what looks dorky. 8)
Quote from: Stonewall on April 23, 2008, 08:15:20 PM
You mean, the right way? No one in the AF, except maybe a former Army guy here and there (few and far between) ranger rolls their BDU cap.
Never did in the Air Force, and don't now in the Army. Kinda pointless, it's not meant to wear fancy, it's just a hat. Some people think it looks hi-speed, but it really makes most look like posers.
Quote from: SARMedTech on April 23, 2008, 08:07:52 PM
When I was in college, I had a professor who would write on the top of a bad research paper the following statement: "This has an extraordinarily high Who Gives a S*** Factor." I think this thread may be approaching that point.
I give a S***, for a few reasons.
1) Willful violation of regs, including uniform regs, is dang near a capital offense that can really wreck CAP in a lot of ways. No one's ego is worth that.
2) People dressing like idiots & then claiming to be on the same level as me makes me look like an incompetent girl scout idiot that's not capable of finding my own way out of a paper bag. That voids all the hard work & dedication I've put in so this moron can think he looks cool.
3) Posers are posers, regardless of what institutional support you put behind them. CAP as a whole already has to fight this reputation with persistent quiet professionalism. Again, that's voided in all its parts by boisterous blow hards.
4) Use of these items versus the good rewards I mentioned is a reflection of very poor leadership taken beyond the one-idiot level to the insititution. That cycle has to be confronted, not lifted up.
5) Given these facts, it is a very poor sign post for the big picture of CAP that these items or behavior would be allowed to continue.
Quote from: Stonewall on April 23, 2008, 08:15:20 PM
Quote from: LittleIronPilot on April 23, 2008, 08:03:29 PMThe way the CAP, and Air Force I guess, wears their BDU caps is silly.
You mean, the right way? No one in the AF, except maybe a former Army guy here and there (few and far between) ranger rolls their BDU cap.
Take picture of you in your BDU cap with and without a ranger roll, let us be the judge of what looks dorky. 8)
Silver Flag cops at Creech AFB roll theirs....as do a lot of TACP and other SOF types.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 23, 2008, 09:53:37 PM
Silver Flag cops at Creech AFB roll theirs....as do a lot of TACP and other SOF types.
And that makes it right how?
Quote from: Stonewall on April 23, 2008, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 23, 2008, 09:53:37 PM
Silver Flag cops at Creech AFB roll theirs....as do a lot of TACP and other SOF types.
And that makes it right how?
Did not say it was "right"....but it invalidates your "none in the AF....ranger folls their BDU cap" statement.
This is an example of how un-up tight some USAF units are about uniforms.
Air Crew roll their sleeves and wear their morale patches. SOF forces push up their BDU sleeves. Lots of unit have completely illegal unit T-shirts, and some USAF unit ranger roll their hats.
If you want to use the "but the USAF does not do that" argument....you will find that day to day USAF is just as bad as CAP when it comes to this sort of stuff.
One of the prime reasons behind the "ranger roll" is actually an attempt to crush the top of the hat so it breaks up the visible line. IE - more camo. Rangers do that cause they can wear soft caps in a combat environment, were regular soldiers can't. Now do that with an orange hat & shirt - see what an idiot that person looks like now?
If you're serving in the military in a ground combat capacity, and have been to real Army ranger school, SFAS, indoc, or the like, then fine. You can get away with it, just like SF can grow beards. If not, you need to get the stupid slapped out of your head.
I'm in Army OCS right now. I got rangers in my class, both tabs & scrolls, and a group guy too. If any one of them wears their hat like that, we're all getting smoked for three hours. It's happened a couple times already. It won't be happening again. If it's not okay in that circumstance, in an infantry based program run by the US Army infantry school, then why would it be okay for some CAP program?
Topic.
Quote from: DNall on April 23, 2008, 11:44:41 PM
One of the prime reasons behind the "ranger roll" is actually an attempt to crush the top of the hat so it breaks up the visible line. IE - more camo. Rangers do that cause they can wear soft caps in a combat environment, were regular soldiers can't. Now do that with an orange hat & shirt - see what an idiot that person looks like now?
BS
Sorry DNall...who ever told you that one sold you a bill of goods. At any appreciable range whether you have your hat dog dished or not will not "break up the visible line".
Quote from: DNall on April 23, 2008, 11:44:41 PMIf you're serving in the military in a ground combat capacity, and have been to real Army ranger school, SFAS, indoc, or the like, then fine. You can get away with it, just like SF can grow beards. If not, you need to get the stupid slapped out of your head.
See....now we get to the real meat of the situation. You, in your mind, have reserved the dog dish hat as something reserved for the AD military....Okay....I'll go with that to a point...but who gets to decide that this cool thing is okay for use to use (like Nomex flight suits.....we do not really need them for safety...but they look cool) and which ones we can't do because we have not earned it?
Quote from: DNall on April 23, 2008, 11:44:41 PMI'm in Army OCS right now. I got rangers in my class, both tabs & scrolls, and a group guy too. If any one of them wears their hat like that, we're all getting smoked for three hours. It's happened a couple times already. It won't be happening again. If it's not okay in that circumstance, in an infantry based program run by the US Army infantry school, then why would it be okay for some CAP program?
Because we are CAP and not a US Army Infantry school OCS program.
If the AD unit commander says dog dish...you dog dish...if he say standard patrol cap....standard patrol cap....if he says boonie....boonie.
On the CAP side....if you are running an encampment and you say BDU caps only.....it's BDU cap only....even if you are Ranger Super Class and a Blue Beret Charter Member.
BTW....in CAP we can't crush our hats by regulation....and I tend to follow them.
Quote from: lordmonar on April 24, 2008, 01:02:04 AMBecause we are CAP and not a US Army Infantry school OCS program.
Try telling that to the guy who made the reverse American flag patches mandatory on the BDU! (http://forums.cadetstuff.org/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif)
Quote from: lordmonar on April 24, 2008, 01:02:04 AM
BTW....in CAP we can't crush our hats by regulation....and I tend to follow them.
Actually the PAWG Commander sent an email out clarifying that PAWG members will crush or "ranger roll" their hats if ordered to do so by their unit Commander. He decided that he would make this clarification the same weekend the Wing got shut down for safety violations. His reasoning was that since 39-1 only says no crushing or rolling bdu covers, ranger rolling and crushing ball caps is LEGAL. He is such a dork!
Quote from: MIKE on April 24, 2008, 12:18:07 AM
Topic.
Exactly. This is the reason why I made the "who gives a s*** factor" statement. This has ceased to be about the rules and regulation regarding bling and has degenerated into an argument of who likes it and who doesn't.
Quote from: SARMedTech on April 24, 2008, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from: MIKE on April 24, 2008, 12:18:07 AM
Topic.
Exactly. This is the reason why I made the "who gives a s*** factor" statement. This has ceased to be about the rules and regulation regarding bling and has degenerated into an argument of who likes it and who doesn't.
That's kinda the reason why I stopped following this topic and many like it so closely.
Quote from: mikeylikey on April 24, 2008, 01:52:38 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 24, 2008, 01:02:04 AM
BTW....in CAP we can't crush our hats by regulation....and I tend to follow them.
Actually the PAWG Commander sent an email out clarifying that PAWG members will crush or "ranger roll" their hats if ordered to do so by their unit Commander. He decided that he would make this clarification the same weekend the Wing got shut down for safety violations. His reasoning was that since 39-1 only says no crushing or rolling bdu covers, ranger rolling and crushing ball caps is LEGAL. He is such a dork!
Do we relly want advice from PAWG at the moment???
Being PS Army, i think the roll looks cooky and out of place. I know what the reg says, but know that IF i ever become the Wing CC, I would make it known that the regs will be followed, but it looks crappy
QuoteHe is such a dork!
tru dat...you would think he would at least avoid using a term of reference for a legal procedure (in his eyes) that is specifically mentioned as unauthorized. Even if we are talking baseball caps vs BDU caps.
mk
Quote from: lordmonar on April 24, 2008, 01:02:04 AM
Quote from: DNall on April 23, 2008, 11:44:41 PM
One of the prime reasons behind the "ranger roll" is actually an attempt to crush the top of the hat so it breaks up the visible line. IE - more camo. Rangers do that cause they can wear soft caps in a combat environment, were regular soldiers can't. Now do that with an orange hat & shirt - see what an idiot that person looks like now?
BS
Sorry DNall...who ever told you that one sold you a bill of goods. At any appreciable range whether you have your hat dog dished or not will not "break up the visible line".
You mean like a bonnie hat breaks up visual lines, or some splotchy colors on a uniform versus solid green? Effective or not, that's always been one part of the logic.
Other then that...
The regulation and AF custom state how hats will be worn, which is blocked & starched for a clean crisp appearance. THAT is the standard, not whatever the local commander directs. Again, what would uniforms be like if every local commander could do their own thing?
A narrow area of the Army crushes their hat by custom, which is against regs. That custom is generally associated with ground combat troops above airborne infantry. Anyone else that does it is a poser, and is corrected, in my area that's done fairly heavy handedly.
Any part of CAP following that Army custom is seriously messed up. They should be looking to the AF first of all, not the Army. And secondly, they are no where remotely close to that level of operators, not even by comparison to the rest of CAP. All they do is draw negative attention to themselves.
CAP does wear flight suits for safety. Off field landing in a mil aircraft is almost sure death, you don't need nomex to eject. In a Cessna, you can't eject out of a cabin fire, & you are more likely to survive impact to sit there hurt in a pile of gas. So yes, absolutely it's for safety. Some people might wear it cause they think it's cool, but that's not why it's authorized. There's variations there that restrict some of the aspects that go to operational pilots. The AF holds their line on that.
Thread done.