Not sure if someone has already started this somewhere else, but...
It's good to see that someone has suggested an Achivement Award that can be approved by Group CC! As it is, I have created many different awards that were not more than certificates, but they meant something to my members.
Now we can have a recognized award that does not have to go through the whole red tape process of a Wing Approval - depending on NB approval and guidelines in March.
Of course, like achievement medals in the Navy (and I am sure in the other services, because afterall, you get a ribbon for just being in the Air Force!), do not be surprised if A LOT of people end up getting this award. Many of our members do outstanding and exceptional work to warrant some bling. However, this work does not always equate to a Commander's Comm.
+1 for the Achievement Medal. It would bring some of our awards more in line with USAF awards (at least one step closer).
As for the design, I wonder if a color-change and if needed, a slight alteration of the pattern, to the comparable Air Force Achievement Medal (http://www.gruntsmilitary.com/afam.shtml) would be acceptable? See attached image for concept idea.
You could use it as a screwdriver in a pinch!
Or sharpen the edges for those times at a banquent when a speaker goes on too long. ;D
Looks good to me! The NB agenda said there was an idea attached to the agenda, but I could not find it. I wonder if the gif here is the same idea.
The concept has been talked about for over a year now I guess. I didn't know it was going to be Gp lvl appvl, but that's fine. I'm good with that design as well. I do favor keeping designs in line with their AF counterpart (and rouch award criteria as well). Got my vote, not that I get one. ;D
Looks good ;D
On the Group Approval.
These concepts work great for people who have group structures, but many wings don't. Otherwise, for the rest of us it's just business as usual - send the request for the Wing King to sign - and with that, why not just submit a CC - same sign off.
However, since the NB doesn't actually think like that...
The Achievement Award should have easier standards than the CC.
The proposal actually says wgs w/o Gps the approval authority would be designated to PDO for adults & DCP for cadets, and of course lower standards for award. Cdr's Com would still be thru a board rec'ing appvl to Wg/CC.
Awesome idea, but just a bit of an issue with the design.
If we're going to make one of our medals "mirror" it's AF counterpart, I would suggest re-doing ALL of our decorations and trying to make them as close to their AF counterpart as possible (if one applies to it). But... considering how that's not really going to happen for cost sake...
Why just make THIS ONE look like an AF decoration?
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on February 08, 2008, 08:40:48 AM
Awesome idea, but just a bit of an issue with the design.
If we're going to make one of our medals "mirror" it's AF counterpart, I would suggest re-doing ALL of our decorations and trying to make them as close to their AF counterpart as possible (if one applies to it). But... considering how that's not really going to happen for cost sake...
Why just make THIS ONE look like an AF decoration?
I don't really think the design is as important as what the award could mean to our members. Do we really have to worry about if this medal mirrors an AF one?
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on February 08, 2008, 08:40:48 AM
Awesome idea, but just a bit of an issue with the design.
If we're going to make one of our medals "mirror" it's AF counterpart, I would suggest re-doing ALL of our decorations and trying to make them as close to their AF counterpart as possible (if one applies to it). But... considering how that's not really going to happen for cost sake...
Why just make THIS ONE look like an AF decoration?
That's a really bad idea.
I've noticed that a lot of the guys on this website love to say 'Well, we should change all the patches to match Air Force standards.'
But you don't consider the fact we'd have to change fifty thousand plus patchs, ribbons, etc etc.
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on February 08, 2008, 08:40:48 AM
Awesome idea, but just a bit of an issue with the design.
Quote from: JThemann on February 08, 2008, 01:51:05 PM
I've noticed that a lot of the guys on this website love to say 'Well, we should change all the patches to match Air Force standards.'
But you don't consider the fact we'd have to change fifty thousand plus patchs, ribbons, etc etc.
Right. You don't change all the unit patches at once to meet a standard, but you
do re-do them properly when you have the chance and have all new ones meet the standard.
Quote from: jason.pennington on February 08, 2008, 11:16:23 AM
I don't really think the design is as important as what the award could mean to our members. Do we really have to worry about if this medal mirrors an AF one?
I agree that the design is not the most important part; I just got a bit excited and whipped something up in Photoshop. It looks like the proposal for the award itself is on the right track, though.
So what is the status on this? I think its a great idea. Pretty sharp looking medal also.
Quote from: jason.pennington on February 08, 2008, 11:16:23 AM
I don't really think the design is as important as what the award could mean to our members. Do we really have to worry about if this medal mirrors an AF one?
Well the AF has one at that level for a good reason, we're picking up on that. Far as looks, this would be the time to make it look right versus not.
Bigger picture... ribbons cost 60 cents, it's not a freakin cost issue to change a few. There is a concept out there to bring our matrix of awards in line with AF decs. That includes using designs that, while dif, are recognizable as associated with the same level AF dec by AF personnel. That also included AF awards. The majority of AF decs are awardable to civilians & are in many cases. However, the approval authority is out of whack as that's an honorary thing. There's an effort to get AF to add two sentences to an AF reg to bring that appvl authority for award to CAP on AFAM down to CAP-USAF/RegLO/state dir levels on par w/ AF levels. That'd bring us more in line w/ how CG-CGAux as well.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 08, 2008, 03:56:31 PM
Pretty sharp looking medal also.
*Note!*
That medal isn't a part of the actual NB proposal. I saw the NB proposal, we wondered what a potential design for the ribbon/medal might look like, and I quickly drafted something up in Photoshop. Not an official concept. Just "Pylon's" idea of what a good suggestion might look like.
But thanks for the positive comment :D
I think having an award at the Group level is outstanding. In the Marines we had the Navy-Marine Corps Achievement Medal that was awarded at the discretion of the Battalion Commander. In certain areas, Wing can be very removed from Group. Giving the Group Commander the discretion to award almost on the spot, within days of a recommendation can be very positive.
We had talked about an Aerial Achievement Medal before. This is one where placing a device, such as a silver propeller on the medal, would signify that, vs adding an entirely different ribbon. By simply adding a device completely changes the meaning of the award.
Example, In the Marines, the Navy Achievement Medal can be awarded for Valor by placing the Bronze "V" on the ribbon.
Ribbon with silver propellor device for achievement involving flight. Without the prop is for all other. Whudda ya think......Sounds like a photoshop mission in the works.
I think the CAP Achievement Medal is a good idea. But several award have been approved by national and haven't been seen since. Who recalls that about 5 years ago Col Matt Sharkey of SER proposed a CAP DFC and Air medal type awards. They were approved and lost in the shuffle. Of course we got the National Commander's Commendation instead.
Quote from: Cecil DP on February 08, 2008, 05:55:54 PM
I think the CAP Achievement Medal is a good idea. But several award have been approved by national and haven't been seen since. Who recalls that about 5 years ago Col Matt Sharkey of SER proposed a CAP DFC and Air medal type awards. They were approved and lost in the shuffle. Of course we got the National Commander's Commendation instead.
Both of the medals were proposed and designs done. They were turned down last year at the NB in Washington.
I still havn't seen the photoshopped Aerial Achievement Medal complete with Prop device that I had requested! ;D
Quote from: JThemannThat's a really bad idea.
I've noticed that a lot of the guys on this website love to say 'Well, we should change all the patches to match Air Force standards.'
But you don't consider the fact we'd have to change fifty thousand plus patchs, ribbons, etc etc.
And aparrently you didn't consider the fact that I put a "disclaimer" on my statement?
I said it in my post, and I'll say it again. I know that's not going to happen. Sheesh.
I know the design of a medal's not important - it it was merely a suggestion / idea. Give it a rest.
What I want to know is: Instead of designing a CAP award equal to USAF awards, why in the heck cant we just get authorization to award the actual USAF
ribbon/ device/medal ??
Lets start here: From now on, issue the USAF Achievement Medal/Ribbon in place of a "CAP Achievement Ribbon"
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 08, 2008, 09:37:14 PM
What I want to know is: Instead of designing a CAP award equal to USAF awards, why in the heck cant we just get authorization to award the actual USAF
ribbon/ device/medal ??
Lets start here: From now on, issue the USAF Achievement Medal/Ribbon in place of a "CAP Achievement Ribbon"
Let me get this straight. You want
CAP commanders to have the authority to award
CAP personnel an
USAF award? Yeah, right. :D
Laugh if you want.
Why not authorize AIR FORCE commanders to award Air Force medals to CAP personnel on Air Force missions?
There are quite a few AF awards that can be granted to civilians (us). The obvious approval route would be through CAP-USAF.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 09, 2008, 03:03:21 AM
Laugh if you want.
Why not authorize AIR FORCE commanders to award Air Force medals to CAP personnel on Air Force missions?
That would be nice, but do you really think it would ever happen? The biggest mobilization of CAP personnel in over 50 years for Katrina, and the AF recognizes us with one article.
I could count numerous instances where an AF award would be super-appropriate, but the AF wants little or no contact with us. It has become all too apparent.
The VSAF program will be the real test. IF the AF awards anyone anything that will be the time and place. I bet certificates will not even be given out! Isn't that sad, but I figure it is the truth!
(Yes I am being super-negative, sorry) :'(
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 09, 2008, 03:41:48 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 09, 2008, 03:03:21 AM
Laugh if you want.
Why not authorize AIR FORCE commanders to award Air Force medals to CAP personnel on Air Force missions?
That would be nice, but do you really think it would ever happen? The biggest mobilization of CAP personnel in over 50 years for Katrina, and the AF recognizes us with one article.
I could count numerous instances where an AF award would be super-appropriate, but the AF wants little or no contact with us. It has become all too apparent.
The VSAF program will be the real test. IF the AF awards anyone anything that will be the time and place. I bet certificates will not even be given out! Isn't that sad, but I figure it is the truth!
(Yes I am being super-negative, sorry) :'(
CG routinely awards real CG decs (mil & DHS) to CGAux members. AF routinely awards mil decs to civilians. Has nothing to do with deployments. Saw an ariel ach mdl awarded to a civilian contractor for sustained performance fixing electrical systems for two years. That's typical.
The issue with doing it is the apvl auth to award AF decs to civilians is CSAF's office. That's unreasonable for what would be routine awards within the AF & should be for instances within CAP. All that needs to happen is two lines in the AF reg to remind AF that CAP is auth XYZ awards, and apvl auth is state dir/RegLo/CAP-USAF CC as appopriate to AF apvl levels. And note the process for recommendation to/thru the CAP-USAF chain.
It's a really easy fix with lots of precedent & supporting evidence. We're not actually changing anything, just asking them to make it easier for them to approve at their own discression.
I would note at this point, not all AF decs are awardable to civilians (including CAP). Ach, commendation, meritorious service, etc are in that mil only list. Getting that changed would be a bigger deal & is above my paygrade.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 09, 2008, 03:03:21 AM
Laugh if you want.
Why not authorize AIR FORCE commanders to award Air Force medals to CAP personnel on Air Force missions?
I'm fine with an Air Force commander awarding a CAP member an Air Force award. I just can't see CAP members awarding Air Force awards to other CAP members.
Quote from: PA Guy on February 09, 2008, 05:33:51 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 09, 2008, 03:03:21 AM
Laugh if you want.
Why not authorize AIR FORCE commanders to award Air Force medals to CAP personnel on Air Force missions?
I'm fine with an Air Force commander awarding a CAP member an Air Force award. I just can't see CAP members awarding Air Force awards to other CAP members.
It would of course be an AF Officer awarding the item to the CAP member in question.
I was thinking someone like the SD or an appropriate person from the nearby AF Base.
I know we discussed this a bit in the past, but what items other then the ComCom could CAP be awarded by the USAF?
Would any criteria need to be changed?
I always thought that the Lifesaving, Vollunteer Service and Humanitarian Service Awards would be the easiest for us to obtain.
The Air Force Civilian Achievement Award closely resembles the Air Force Achievement Medal and will recognize civilian personnel "who go above and beyond the call of duty for a specific act that supports the unit's mission and goals."
"Skilled and dedicated civilian professionals have always been part of the total force," Johnson said, "but until now, we haven't had an appropriate way to honor their service for a very specific achievement."
CAP members participating in VSAF should be eligible for this award! All CAP members should also be eligible for all AF or DOD civilian awards.
I can see civilian medals and awards being awarded more than military ones.
A lot of folks want some AF decs. Anyone sent the idea up the chain yet?
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 09, 2008, 08:46:16 PM
The Air Force Civilian Achievement Award closely resembles the Air Force Achievement Medal and will recognize civilian personnel "who go above and beyond the call of duty for a specific act that supports the unit's mission and goals."
"Skilled and dedicated civilian professionals have always been part of the total force," Johnson said, "but until now, we haven't had an appropriate way to honor their service for a very specific achievement."
CAP members participating in VSAF should be eligible for this award! All CAP members should also be eligible for all AF or DOD civilian awards.
I can see civilian medals and awards being awarded more than military ones.
We have to be careful here. This is an award for Air Force civilians, as opposed to the general public. Just as there some awards that only go to military, there are some that only go to Civilians employed by the Air Force. Then there are some that can be awarded to anyone.
I'm not sure where CAP would fit into that. We're not really Air Force civilians, yet we're not just the general public.
GOOD JOB!
I like both ideas:
1) AF officers approving AF awards, where appropriate, for CAP personnel will permit AF who work with us to give recognition where they think it is due
2) I've long felt we needed an 'attaboy' award (below corporate officer approval level) that was more meaningful than a certificate of appreciation
Just so long as this new Group Commendation medal doesnt look like all the rest: a small bronze disk with Civil Air Patrol and maybe the word "Commendation" ... I absolutely HATE that al of our 'medals' are generic.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 12, 2008, 08:28:28 PM
Just so long as this new Group Commendation medal doesnt look like all the rest: a small bronze disk with Civil Air Patrol and maybe the word "Commendation" ... I absolutely HATE that al of our 'medals' are generic.
I wonder if NHQ or the uniform committee would be receptive to an idea to redesign the gongs? They
do suck.
Jack
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 08, 2008, 09:37:14 PM
What I want to know is: Instead of designing a CAP award equal to USAF awards, why in the heck cant we just get authorization to award the actual USAF
ribbon/ device/medal ??
Lets start here: From now on, issue the USAF Achievement Medal/Ribbon in place of a "CAP Achievement Ribbon"
The only way that would even remotely be a possibility is if a CAP member made significant and direct contribution to an Air Force Operation(if this is even possible).
For example... please consider this analogy:
Members of the Coast Guard Axillary CAN be awarded CG unit awards and even decorations(Achievement Medals and etc) for significant contribution to a CG Operation. I do know that the two organizations are completely different(CAP and CGA), but it illustrates that an axillary volunteer branch can get service based awards. With that being said, I have noticed that the CG Axillary works A LOT closer with their parent branch than the CAP/AF(Standing radio watches in Comms Centers, Vessel Safety Boardings, Public Education, sea and beach patrols, and etc).
The CG Axillary does have their own Medals and Ribbons, but the CG does recognize significant/direct support provided to ongoing Active Duty Operations by occasionally awarding CG awards. It is rare, but I have seen it more than once or twice(especially with unit awards). I have only heard of one senior ranking Axillary member getting a CG Achievement Medal(for deeds that might have gotten him a Meritorious Service Medal if he were Active Duty), but this proves that it does happen.
QuoteThe only way that would even remotely be a possibility is if a CAP member made significant and direct contribution to an Air Force Operation(if this is even possible).
Every Air Force Assigned Mission is an Air Force "operation" by definition and any CAP action on an AFAM should potentially be eligible for an applicable AF award that is open to award to civilians.
It is routine for CG Auxiliary members to get "real" CG awards and not just the ones that go to everybody in the Coast Guard (Presidential Unit Citation, 9/11 Ribbon, etc.) and not necessarily just for actions that were done in direct support of the CG, though that is typical.
Hi River Aux,
Not everyone in the CG got the 9/11 Ribbon(although it seems like it!). What AD decorations(Achievement and higher) have you seen bestowed on Aux members? This is a very interesting topic. I have only seen the Achievement Medal awarded to an Auxiliary member(and he definitely deserved it, if not more) and it was treated as a very big deal.
I dont understand how an Auxiliary member(off topic alert...sorry) could be eligible for a AD Decoration when the citation data was not from direct AD Support. Isn't that why the Axillary has their own awards system? I am not an Admin Geek nor am I an Auxiliary member, but it does not make sense.
(Back on topic) After all that has been said,I feel that if the AF assigns the CAP to a mission, then the directly participating members should be eligible to AF awards. I am surprised that there is not some sort of provision yet.
Don't get confused talking about AD missions. There is no such thing. There's a total force made up of AD, res, guard, auxiliary, civilian employees, and even contractors. They all together share one mission, and that's it. Any mission that comes down to CAP from any part of the federal govt is an AF mission, just as if it'd gone to any other AF unit. AF personnel are routinely awarded decorations for things done in or out of combat, in or out of the country. The AF also awards those same mil decorations to civilian employees & contractors on a regular basis. CAP is the ONLY piece of that puzzle that isn't routinely recognized. The reason for that is primarily the lack of exposure, not the performance.
Paul, almost all national awards that go to CG Aux members have to be approved by the Coast Guard even those awards that can only go to CG Auxies. In 2007 nearly 1200 Auxies earned the CG Meritorius Team Commendation, 11 earned the CG Meritorius Unit Commendation, 7 got the CG Unit Commendation. Those are the most common CG awards earned by Auxies. A bunch (including me) also have earned the CG Special Operations Service Ribbon though there haven't been any for a couple of years.
Quote from: DNall on February 14, 2008, 12:31:34 AM
Don't get confused talking about AD missions. There is no such thing. There's a total force made up of AD, res, guard, auxiliary, civilian employees, and even contractors. They all together share one mission, and that's it. Any mission that comes down to CAP from any part of the federal govt is an AF mission, just as if it'd gone to any other AF unit. AF personnel are routinely awarded decorations for things done in or out of combat, in or out of the country. The AF also awards those same mil decorations to civilian employees & contractors on a regular basis. CAP is the ONLY piece of that puzzle that isn't routinely recognized. The reason for that is primarily the lack of exposure, not the performance.
We also have our own extensive set of decorations....
Do you really need a Air Force ribbon on your CAP service jacket to do your job better?
^ No, but the recognition from the parent at least once in a while would be nice. With VSAF starting up, I am sure we will see more recognition, right?!?!
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 14, 2008, 03:51:44 AM
^ No, but the recognition from the parent at least once in a while would be nice. With VSAF starting up, I am sure we will see more recognition, right?!?!
True, but what is recognition exactly? To me, the best recognition I've gotten is a nod and thanks from an Air National Guard Senior Airmen after I helped him unload some bags at Encampment a few years back. Honestly, I'm not sure having the Air Force award us medals would be completely fair. Wouldn't units based on Air Force bases get the lions share of them?
I mean, I understand the Coastie Aux guys get CG awards, but they spend time actually working with CG guys. Most CAPers don't. The best I could see us doing is have Air Force awards given out by recommandation through the CAP chain of command.......but those wouldn't really be Air Force awards, would they? They'd be CAP awards with a different name on the citation.
So it kinda comes back to my orginal post.......aren't CAP decorations enough? The fact that Air Force civilian workers and contractors get awards doesn't really make a difference in my opinion. It's a different set of circumstances (ie, they actually work for the Air Force full time), and for them, those Air Force awards *are* their only awards. CAP has medals and ribbons for everything from the Valor medals down to achievements for completing education requirements. Would putting 'Air Force' rather then 'Air Force Auxiliary' or 'Civil Air Patrol' in the name really make a difference?
Quote from: JThemann on February 14, 2008, 04:43:39 AM
I'm not sure having the Air Force award us medals would be completely fair. Wouldn't units based on Air Force bases get the lions share of them?
Not that I really care either way, but sometimes people just aren't in the right place at the right time to receive, not everyone is always eligible to receive everything. When was the last time you got a DSM? I'm sure that the guys that are over in the sandbox are more likely to be eligible for awards and decs that those stateside won't get.
I'm curious as to why members of CAP would want, or think they deserve, AF awards. I agree that it is entirely appropriate for the AF to award anyone they wish any AF award they wish.
I appreciate everyone's input, but I must say that if people want AF awards, then they should join the AF. If work is done as part of the CAP in response to a need by the AF, then some sort of recognition should come from them. I'm just not sure if it should be an AF medal or ribbon. I don't believe the Navy gives real Navy awards to Sea Cadet leaders or not, but if they did, as an active duty member myself, I might be taken aback by that.
-- You watch, someone will come at me for the above statement!
The original intent of this post was to get feelings about the possible new achievement medal for CAP members and to be able to recognize members more easily than going through a Wing CC in most cases.
There is no such thing as a CAP mission (aside maybe form some unfunded training). Congress assigns AF to do a set of missions & they pass some of that on to CAP because we are the most appropriate resource in their arsenal. In doing those missions, we've to date saved the AF enough money to pay for the entire F22 program from initial R&D to the final airframe purchase. Even if we never did any other good in the AF's name, that'd be a huge contribution to them.
When a CAP member is flying air recon for the AF over New Orleans & has to land btwn two semis on the freeway with no damage to the AF purchased aircraft or passengers/equipment. I think that's a big deal & does deserve AF recognition. If he crashes in, the AF is taking away from their own wartime ops/trng budget to buy a new plane. Everything we do in CAP, in support of the AF, should be looked at just like a member of the AF doing the same thing as part of their paid service to the AF.
Why you ask though? Well I'll tell you.
First, a lot of people in CAP are also in the real military. They might get a vol serv mdl, most likely in place of some other decoration they would have gotten. And they get that just for being there, not for any significant acts. I can give any CAP decoration to that person & it's absolutely meaningless. But, if the AF gives them a lesser decoration, that means promotion points that effect their career.
Second, it's the parent service saying thank you to a team member the same way they already do to every other member of that team (mil or civ). It's them recognizing the difference we make in their mission/budget. It's mutual respect, and that equals morale in a great big way.
I never saw a civilian receive a USAF Military Decoration for work they did as a civilian. If that is happening now, it must be under something similar to the following US Army policy for Department of the Army Civilians serving in Combat Zones.
.B. AWARDS TO DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY CIVILIANS. AWARDS FOR DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY CIVILIANS (DAC) ARE GOVERNED BY AR 672-20, INCENTIVE AWARDS. UNDER HOSTILE CRITERIA, DAC MAY BE CONSIDERED FOR AWARD OF THE BRONZE STAR MEDAL (BSM) , AIR MEDAL (AM), AND THE PURPLE HEART (PH). RECOMMENDATIONS FOR AWARD OF THE BSM, AM, AND PH FOR DAC WILL BE SUBMITTED TO HQ, HRC (AHRC-PDA) , ALEXANDRIA VA 22332-0471.
I think that all we are asking for is that a process be set up so that CAP members can potentially get AF awards THAT WE ARE ALREADY ELIGIBLE FOR. I don't think that is unreasonable, especially when the final call on any award would be up to the AF. I fully expect that having CAP members earn these awards would be quite rare.
By the way, this isn't anything new --- keep in mind that the very first Air Medals were awarded to 2 CAP members in WWII.
Quote from: Short Field on February 14, 2008, 11:07:20 PM
I never saw a civilian receive a USAF Military Decoration for work they did as a civilian. If that is happening now, it must be under something similar to the following US Army policy for Department of the Army Civilians serving in Combat Zones.
.B. AWARDS TO DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY CIVILIANS. AWARDS FOR DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY CIVILIANS (DAC) ARE GOVERNED BY AR 672-20, INCENTIVE AWARDS. UNDER HOSTILE CRITERIA, DAC MAY BE CONSIDERED FOR AWARD OF THE BRONZE STAR MEDAL (BSM) , AIR MEDAL (AM), AND THE PURPLE HEART (PH). RECOMMENDATIONS FOR AWARD OF THE BSM, AM, AND PH FOR DAC WILL BE SUBMITTED TO HQ, HRC (AHRC-PDA) , ALEXANDRIA VA 22332-0471.
Those are awardable to any civilian and always have been. That policy statement is just a reminder to field commanders that they can put DAC employees in for that stuff.
There are also a range of non-combat decs awardable, also to any civilian, and then there are a range of decs designated for members of the AF, most which are also awarded to DAF employees, but not contractors. That's done on a fairly regular basis. And why not, it's a lot cheaper than bonuses. CAP personnel on AFAM are legally DAF employees on AF orders.
The issue is that mil awards to civilians have to be approved up thru the SECAF's office. Whereas, the same awards are routine to mil personnel at Gp/Wg/Majcom kind of levels. All we'd be doing here is asking Af to add a couple lines to their reg describing a recommendation & approval process for CAP members on AFAM, which are approved at the equiv echelon levels of the CAP-USAF chain of command. It would be up to them if, when, and how often they wish to utilize it.
Quote from: jason.pennington on February 14, 2008, 01:55:49 PM
I don't believe the Navy gives real Navy awards to Sea Cadet leaders or not, but if they did, as an active duty member myself, I might be taken aback by that.
Sea Cadet leaders, NCC officers, ACA officers, and so on, are not members of the Congressionally chartered auxiliary to their parent/sponsoring service.
That distinction belongs only to CAP and USCGAux.
To me, the question is not "Should we get AF awards in addition to CAP awards?" The question should be: "Why does CAP have a separate set of awards from the Air Force?"
If CAP members were activated for Katrina, and served there, why are they awarded a different medal than the Humanitarian Service Medal? If a person performs an act of non-combat heroism on an Air Force mission, why does he get a Medal of Valor instead of an AF Commendation Medal or Airman's Medal? If a cadet meets AF standards for marksmanship, why can't he be awarded the AF expert ribbon?
I'm sure there is an answer to these questions, but I'd like to know how CAP went from receiving the first Air Medals to our current situation.
Quote from: JThemann on February 14, 2008, 04:43:39 AM
So it kinda comes back to my orginal post.......aren't CAP decorations enough? The fact that Air Force civilian workers and contractors get awards doesn't really make a difference in my opinion. It's a different set of circumstances (ie, they actually work for the Air Force full time), and for them, those Air Force awards *are* their only awards. CAP has medals and ribbons for everything from the Valor medals down to achievements for completing education requirements. Would putting 'Air Force' rather then 'Air Force Auxiliary' or 'Civil Air Patrol' in the name really make a difference?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 18, 2008, 07:54:07 PM
To me, the question is not "Should we get AF awards in addition to CAP awards?" The question should be: "Why does CAP have a separate set of awards from the Air Force?"
You know these two posts seem to indicate two sides of a coin. One, if we're going to award our own decs, why do we need Air Force ones, too? On the other hand, if we're working with the Air Force, why aren't their decs sufficient? An interesting dichotomy.
Maybe we, as the members of CAP, need to determine what we are and want to be, instead of trying to live in two separate worlds. Seems like a lot of corporate stuff is done to get around some of the limitations that the Air Force might have. In some cases, the workaround is legitimate, but in others it seems like it's just a way to do our own thing when we don't want to listen to the Air Force.
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 18, 2008, 08:48:07 PM
Maybe we, as the members of CAP, need to determine what we are and want to be, instead of trying to live in two separate worlds. Seems like a lot of corporate stuff is done to get around some of the limitations that the Air Force might have. In some cases, the workaround is legitimate, but in others it seems like it's just a way to do our own thing when we don't want to listen to the Air Force.
That's the ultimate issue in CAP. Far as awards... I think the two sets cover different things.
If I'm on your team & I pitch in to do your work for you & I do that with some distinction... then there is a big dif between you recognizing me for that & me patting myself on the back for it. AF decs are awards by the US govt for support by an AF team mbr acting on fed orders to accomplish govt tasks with whatever level of distinction.
CAP decs are also necessary for a couple simple reasons. First, only some AF decs are awardable to civilians, CAP has to create our own awards mirroring the AF versions with similar standards to make up for that. Second, some of what we do is purely internal or in support of states, etc. Those items have to be recognized internally. And third, we don't really need to take up the time of AF officers with every little thing. There's a needed place for AF awards, but the routine stuff should be dealt with at lower levels, including internally.
But Kach has a good point.....use the AF awards we are eligible for to replace CAP decorations where possible...for one thing, it may make clearer to AF personnel what we do, which may lead to an understanding of who we are (for instance, a Humanitarian service ribbon Will be immediately clear to RM personnel).
Quote from: ZigZag911 on February 19, 2008, 12:19:56 AM
But Kach has a good point.....use the AF awards we are eligible for to replace CAP decorations where possible...for one thing, it may make clearer to AF personnel what we do, which may lead to an understanding of who we are (for instance, a Humanitarian service ribbon Will be immediately clear to RM personnel).
Or..........see us as a bunch of wannabes who adopted their ribbons for our purposes.
Do you really think what a CAP member has on their chest will change the first impression that a CAP member makes on them?
Again, the only thing that makes you a chicken is being a chicken. Putting on feathers does not.
Themann:
I hope you are not calling me a chicken. I also hope you are not implying that CAP members are cowards.
So, what is your point?
I say that if a member performs an act of non-combat heroism, or other significant achievement, the USAF has awards to recognize such conduct. Why do we need parallel awards to do what the Air Force already does?
If anything, I would see a REDUCTION in the awards worn by CAP members. No training awards, find ribbons, O-ride ribbons, etc.
But IF you worked a disaster where the RM folk were recognized with the HSM, why do we award a parallel medal instead?
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 19, 2008, 01:59:10 AM
Themann:
I hope you are not calling me a chicken. I also hope you are not implying that CAP members are cowards.
So, what is your point?
I say that if a member performs an act of non-combat heroism, or other significant achievement, the USAF has awards to recognize such conduct. Why do we need parallel awards to do what the Air Force already does?
If anything, I would see a REDUCTION in the awards worn by CAP members. No training awards, find ribbons, O-ride ribbons, etc.
But IF you worked a disaster where the RM folk were recognized with the HSM, why do we award a parallel medal instead?
No sir, I'm certainly not implying that you, or any other members of the organizations whos command patch is on my jacket are cowards! What I'm saying is that sometimes it seems that CAP members believe that by looking more like the military, we'll become more like them. Now, from my admittely short time in CAP thus far (I've only been in since Sept-03), I've learned that it's the other way around. We should be developing a more professional and disiplined corps of adult members and cadets, and doing our jobs better, and finding more jobs to do, rather then worry about uniform wigets.
I think that a military guy would have a better impression of me if I was clean shaven, my uniform was pressed, my hair trimmed, and I addressed him respectfully then if I have subduded tapes on my BDUs and military medals on my service uniform. Also, more importantly, if I had a good working knowledge of whatever I was doing in his/her presence, that would be best of all!
It seems that some of us think that subduded tapes, metal rank insignia, and military medals/ribbons will suddently turn us into a better and more professional force.
On the topic of military ribbons, I'm not opposed to them per say, but I don't see how they would make our job any better or easier. If I make a find on a REDCAP, a find ribbons on a service jacket I never wear is fine enough for me. If I save a family in an SUV during a massive hurricane/flood/volvano eruption, then a CAP Medal of Valor on the aformentioned jacket is award enough for me. It's a CAP medals, and I'm a member of CAP. I might be a subcontractor of sorts to the Air Force at the time, but my uniform says 'Civil Air Patrol' in bigger letters then 'USAF' anywhere.
Basically, to answer your question, the reason we should be awarded a parallel medal to military folks for similar action is because.......we're a parallel organization. We're not the regular military.
But, at least for a time, we WERE awarded "Regular" military medals. My question is not whether a parallel system of awards is better or worse, but why a parallel system exists in the first place.
The only advantage I could see is that members of the AF would recognize ribbons at a glance. Right now, CAP officers wearing ribbons cannot be "Read" by AF folk, because they can't tell a Silver Medal of Valor from a bag of groceries. Having AF standard ribbons would have more meaning in that context, at least.
A new award for your consideration!
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 19, 2008, 04:37:28 AM
But, at least for a time, we WERE awarded "Regular" military medals. My question is not whether a parallel system of awards is better or worse, but why a parallel system exists in the first place.
The only advantage I could see is that members of the AF would recognize ribbons at a glance. Right now, CAP officers wearing ribbons cannot be "Read" by AF folk, because they can't tell a Silver Medal of Valor from a bag of groceries. Having AF standard ribbons would have more meaning in that context, at least.
Times and things change Major. The parallel system exists because we're a parallel organization, not quite civilians, not quite members of the Air Force. And, like I said, I believe theres other ways a CAP Senior Member or Cadet can be 'read' by Air Force guys. I've never met a military guy who's first reaction to me was to ask me what ribbons I have/what they mean.
I'm looking at an Air Force ribbon chart, and there's precious few medals I could see carrying over to CAP service. Would you honestly.........reduce the meaning of these medals so that your CAP ribbon rack can be 'read' better by RM guys?
Or, is it possible that RM guys would see their medal ribbons on our uniforms, and assume we had bastardized them for some other purpose. "No, really, this is the same as the medal on your rack........."
Quote from: JThemann on February 19, 2008, 01:16:47 PM
...RM guys would see their medal ribbons on our uniforms,...
No. Military awards and Decs are only allowed on the AF uniform. So They would see
their medals on
their uniform.
I took a quick look at an AF awards list and there are about 10 or so that would be appropriate.
The real question is if we would trade in our gigantic ribbon stacks for the 4 or 5 'Real Military' awards most might earn over a CAP career.
Quote from: cnitas on February 19, 2008, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: JThemann on February 19, 2008, 01:16:47 PM
...RM guys would see their medal ribbons on our uniforms,...
No. Military awards and Decs are only allowed on the AF uniform. So They would see their medals on their uniform.
I took a quick look at an AF awards list and there are about 10 or so that would be appropriate.
The real question is if we would trade in our gigantic ribbon stacks for the 4 or 5 'Real Military' awards most might earn over a CAP career.
I think you're missing the point here sir. These military decorations would replace our current CAP decorations. Thus would see their medals on their uniform, they would see their ribbons on CAP uniforms. A CAP uniform is a CAP uniform, it's just not the same as the AF uniform. I think pulling out the reg about mil decs on AF style uniforms is out of the spirite of it.
Is that a little clearer
Quote from: JThemann on February 19, 2008, 02:58:18 PM
Quote from: cnitas on February 19, 2008, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: JThemann on February 19, 2008, 01:16:47 PM
...RM guys would see their medal ribbons on our uniforms,...
No. Military awards and Decs are only allowed on the AF uniform. So They would see their medals on their uniform.
I took a quick look at an AF awards list and there are about 10 or so that would be appropriate.
The real question is if we would trade in our gigantic ribbon stacks for the 4 or 5 'Real Military' awards most might earn over a CAP career.
I think you're missing the point here sir. These military decorations would replace our current CAP decorations. Thus would see their medals on their uniform, they would see their ribbons on CAP uniforms. A CAP uniform is a CAP uniform, it's just not the same as the AF uniform. I think pulling out the reg about mil decs on AF style uniforms is out of the spirite of it.
Is that a little clearer
When you are saying 'our uniform' I was thinking you were referring to corporates. Keep in mind that the AF style uniform is an AF uniform they are allowing us to wear.
But I do agree, the CAP uniform is different than a standard AF uniform. Then again, a Navy uniform is different than an AF uniform, and the AF does not seem to have a problem with seeing many of the same decorations on their uniforms.
Well, no. It isn't clearer. At least it does not answer my question.
We are a parallel organization, sort of. But since we perform AF missions, and we are NOT "AF Civilians" in the civil-service sense, we could just as easily be considered an unpaid extension of the AF reserve components, or, perhaps more accurately, the Auxiliary could be considered a component alongside the ANG and USAR.
In that context, why would we NOT be eligible for AF awards, and why would we need to have an awards program of our own?
I personally think that the CAP awards program was developed so that the "Wanna-be but never wuz" types can still look like a mix between Patton and Audie Murphy without the pesky annoyance of having to serve on active duty and in combat. That is just my opinion, though. I have no facts to back up that statement.
I just can't get the image of a cadet showing up to Airforce BMT with an Achievement medal, Humanitarian Service medal, and Expert Marksman ribbon out of my head...talk about an attention grabber. :o
Quote from: cnitas on February 19, 2008, 04:37:26 PM
Keep in mind that the AF style uniform is an AF uniform they are allowing us to wear.
No, it is a AF
style uniform - not a USAF uniform. There is a difference.
Quote from: cnitas on February 19, 2008, 04:53:58 PM
I just can't get the image of a cadet showing up to Airforce BMT with an Achievement medal, Humanitarian Service medal, and Expert Marksman ribbon out of my head...talk about an attention grabber. :o
Why not, I went to tech school with a re-tread who had everything but the MOH from his time in Vietnam. He said they didn't bother him too much in boot...
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 19, 2008, 04:40:17 PM
Well, no. It isn't clearer. At least it does not answer my question.
We are a parallel organization, sort of. But since we perform AF missions, and we are NOT "AF Civilians" in the civil-service sense, we could just as easily be considered an unpaid extension of the AF reserve components, or, perhaps more accurately, the Auxiliary could be considered a component alongside the ANG and USAR.
In that context, why would we NOT be eligible for AF awards, and why would we need to have an awards program of our own?
I personally think that the CAP awards program was developed so that the "Wanna-be but never wuz" types can still look like a mix between Patton and Audie Murphy without the pesky annoyance of having to serve on active duty and in combat. That is just my opinion, though. I have no facts to back up that statement.
To me, sir, and don't take offensive to this please, saying that we're 'an unpaid extension' of the Reserve or the ANG is more of a 'wannabe but never wuz' stance then wanting to have our own awards. CAP 'could' be considered a lot of things. We could be seen as an extension of the boy scouts (joint charter squadrons.) We could be considered etc etc etc.
However, we aren't really any of those things. We are what we are, and we do what we do (very well.) While I would absolutely support creating CAP into the USAF(VR)T, it's not what it is now. For whatever reason, we have lost a lot of our military connections over the years. I guess the fundamental difference in our point of views comes from the fact you were around before those changes occured, while I showed up after.
Quote from: Short Field on February 19, 2008, 05:04:26 PM
Quote from: cnitas on February 19, 2008, 04:37:26 PM
Keep in mind that the AF style uniform is an AF uniform they are allowing us to wear.
No, it is a AF style uniform - not a USAF uniform. There is a difference.
That's been addressed before, Kach was the one who posted the excerpt from the
Congressional charter of "authorized to wear an Air Force uniform with CAP distinctive insignia". Our blues uniforms have to have Air Force certification labels. They are Air Force uniforms. I've used the term "Air Force variant". I don't think the term will catch on, but it's more accurate.
So since the Coast Guard Aux are awarded Coast Guard decorations, does them being part of DHS make that easier? I could have definitely seen the Humanitarian Medal awarded during Katrina.
Quote from: Flying Pig on February 19, 2008, 05:34:55 PM
So since the Coast Guard Aux are awarded Coast Guard decorations, does them being part of DHS make that easier? I could have definitely seen the Humanitarian Medal awarded during Katrina.
I think in that case, the fact they're part of the Coast Guard is what makes it easier.
Judging from the last several posts, I think a few people would like to see a combination of Air Force awards and CAP ones.
There is merit in reducing our decs, getting rid of ones that are excessive or reducing a few of them to a single dec with additional clasps. For other things, AF awards would be fitting when we do the same work they do. As Kach pointed out, why should military get an HSM when we get something else for the same type of actions?
I think there is a happy medium somewhere, it's probably just a matter of finding it. Other things we would have to think about would be order of decs. Would we put all the military ones above CAP ones? Would we intermix the order? We have a listing of military decs in 39-1, should we work our decs into the mix?
I think a lot of the desire for AF decs is to be closer to the Air Force, feel as a part of the team. However, I'm certain that there are people that think it will make us better just because we have military awards, as Themann said. There are up and down sides to the concept.
Quote from: JThemann on February 19, 2008, 05:18:49 PM....For whatever reason, we have lost a lot of our military connections over the years. I guess the fundamental difference in our point of views comes from the fact you were around before those changes occured, while I showed up after.
This points out a lot of the differences in the various generations we have in CAP. A lot of major differences we have on this board are a combination of this, as well as the differing backgrounds of military and non-military experience. Question is: How do we fit everyone into this culture?
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 19, 2008, 05:39:30 PM
Judging from the last several posts, I think a few people would like to see a combination of Air Force awards and CAP ones.
There is merit in reducing our decs, getting rid of ones that are excessive or reducing a few of them to a single dec with additional clasps. For other things, AF awards would be fitting when we do the same work they do. As Kach pointed out, why should military get an HSM when we get something else for the same type of actions?
I think there is a happy medium somewhere, it's probably just a matter of finding it. Other things we would have to think about would be order of decs. Would we put all the military ones above CAP ones? Would we intermix the order? We have a listing of military decs in 39-1, should we work our decs into the mix?
I think a lot of the desire for AF decs is to be closer to the Air Force, feel as a part of the team. However, I'm certain that there are people that think it will make us better just because we have military awards, as Themann said. There are up and down sides to the concept.
Quote from: JThemann on February 19, 2008, 05:18:49 PM....For whatever reason, we have lost a lot of our military connections over the years. I guess the fundamental difference in our point of views comes from the fact you were around before those changes occured, while I showed up after.
This points out a lot of the differences in the various generations we have in CAP. A lot of major differences we have on this board are a combination of this, as well as the differing backgrounds of military and non-military experience. Question is: How do we fit everyone into this culture?
The only way to fit everyone in, I think, is to create own own culture. Create our own traditions, etc etc. We need to sort of dig our heels in and create something new and different.
Quote from: cnitas on February 19, 2008, 04:53:58 PM
I just can't get the image of a cadet showing up to Airforce BMT with an Achievement medal, Humanitarian Service medal, and Expert Marksman ribbon out of my head...talk about an attention grabber. :o
Talk about a CAP retention & mil recruiting incentive.
I do have a girl working for me that has airborne wings & hasn't been to AIT yet, I think that's pretty highspeed.
FO Therman,
First, you're pushing a wanna-be argument at several folks who currently are or have been in the military, with combat &/or leadership experience. They already have mil decs. If you'll slow your roll, you'll notice the discussion has nothing to do with being more like the military & a whole lot to do with making CAP better.
Second, CAP's place in the world. In the Army, we have a lesser developed total force model that says active, reserve, guard, civilian employees, contractors, & army volunteers. All of those people together are THE Army. There is one Army mission & one Army to accomplish it. Portions of that mission are distributed across the matrix of forces, and each unit/person plays it's cog-like role. Without each & every part doing its job, the machine fails, the mission fails, and people die. You can argue semantics all you want, but CAP is absolutely an extension of the AF by law & practice.
Third, it is, by law, an AF uniform, regardless of what distinctive stuff they decide should or should not be on it. That's why they have approval authority over it. That's why the same law that makes it a crime to impersonate a mil officer (including by wear of the uniform) also specifically covers Auxiliaries (CAP & CGAux).
Fourth, CAP members are ALREADY eligible for these awards, as are any other civilian. That is not the issue. The issue is having the approval authority at a reasonable level. You see, if a civilian employee does well, they can be approved for an award by the AF chain of command that's supervising them, just like if they were in the military. However, CAP is a direct reporting unit to HQ AF. The OPCON/ADCON are delegated, but HQ retains control. That means a nomination has to go thru the entire chain of command to the very top of the AF, even for the most routine of awards. That's a simple oversight that's easily fixed with a couple lines in a reg to say the approval levels are same as AF, following CAP-USAF CoC.
Fifth, there would still be CAP awards. There has to be. There's only a handful of AF decs that can be awarded to civilians, and that can only be for actions as a CAP member on AFAM or otherwise in support of AF. There still has to be CAP decs for CAP service/actions, and to cover the awards that can't be given to civilians.
Sixth, part of the reason for this is to incentivize participation by members of the mil.
If they get decs they can wear in the mil, and promotion points from those, that's huge. That's a population block that bring exceptional skills/experience to make us better, and such a minor change would bring thousands in & help retain them through their service & after.
Seventh, the reasons this change should happen... This is the govt recognizing your distinguished service/actions on their mission. It is not CAP patting itself on the back - which is completely meaningless to most people, even moreso when they don't know what all that crap means.
And finally, We can't create a stand alone culture of our own. We're not big enough or have enough synergy from having a bunch of people in one place or a common baseline life-change experience like basic trng. We are subordinate to the AF even more figuratively than we are literally.
Quote from: JThemann on February 19, 2008, 05:51:31 PM
The only way to fit everyone in, I think, is to create own own culture. Create our own traditions, etc etc. We need to sort of dig our heels in and create something new and different.
I think our biggest problem is our almost schizophrenic nature. Air Force Auxiliary at some times, corporate at others. There's also the those who think we should be all corporate, others all military. We have a mix of the two.
Part of our problem is that there are missions that we can't do under military direction, so we accept those as corporate missions and get paid for them. Posse Comitatus is probably the biggest reason for that.
For stuff that is purely corporate, our own decs make sense. For missions that are AF tasks, their decs are probably quite fitting.
As for our new Commendation, it works on the lower levels where the AF isn't going to be seeing the regular sustained work of our units. AF decs probably wouldn't get approved by any Air Force personnel when they don't even know who the person is.
Overall, it seems like a mix of the two is probably going to be more indicative of our dual nature. A couple of questions arise, however. One, what kind of precedence should we set for an intermix of ours and theirs? Two, what about those members in the alternate uniforms that specifically disallow military decorations?
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 19, 2008, 06:08:12 PM
Overall, it seems like a mix of the two is probably going to be more indicative of our dual nature. A couple of questions arise, however. One, what kind of precedence should we set for an intermix of ours and theirs? Two, what about those members in the alternate uniforms that specifically disallow military decorations?
I can't do anything about the wear of mil decs on corp-style uniforms. I think it should be allowed, but that's AF's call. My position would be not to limit recognition to all CAP members just because some people may not be able to equally display it. Ultimately ribbons go on a service coat that rarely gets worn, regardless of it being AF or corp-style. I think it's dramatically more important to get the recognition from the govt than it is to display it after the fact.
Far as precedence, again I can't do anything about that. However, I tend to say it should stay the way it is, with mil decs on top. That's just less complicated & more standardized beyond CAP. If you try to mix it up then it gets complicated. Do I still put my prior service ribbons on top? I'm gonna have an ARCOM over a CAP MOV over an AAM? That's nutty. KISS is the way to go with it.
Quote from: DNall on February 19, 2008, 06:28:03 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 19, 2008, 06:08:12 PM
Overall, it seems like a mix of the two is probably going to be more indicative of our dual nature. A couple of questions arise, however. One, what kind of precedence should we set for an intermix of ours and theirs? Two, what about those members in the alternate uniforms that specifically disallow military decorations?
I can't do anything about the wear of mil decs on corp-style uniforms. I think it should be allowed, but that's AF's call. My position would be not to limit recognition to all CAP members just because some people may not be able to equally display it. Ultimately ribbons go on a service coat that rarely gets worn, regardless of it being AF or corp-style. I think it's dramatically more important to get the recognition from the govt than it is to display it after the fact.
Far as precedence, again I can't do anything about that. However, I tend to say it should stay the way it is, with mil decs on top. That's just less complicated & more standardized beyond CAP. If you try to mix it up then it gets complicated. Do I still put my prior service ribbons on top? I'm gonna have an ARCOM over a CAP MOV over an AAM? That's nutty. KISS is the way to go with it.
Yeah, simple probably is the best way. Mil decs on top, go with what we have now. Service coat isn't the only way to do it, though. Due to the influence of a friend that is still active duty, I wear ribbons whenever in blues. My thing, not a rule.
If we do the same work, I don't see a problem with the same recognition. Maybe asking the AF would be a simple way of showing them that we wish to work closer, be more a part of the team. At present, CAP is probably viewed by those in the know as somewhat spoiled. Working closer might improve our standing. We need to be more proactive, express our desires, rather than sitting here wishing, and lamenting our present circumstances. Asking to wear AF decs on corporates might show our interest.
It is possible to have parallel awards systems... AF awards for exemplary actions on AF missions and CAP awards for training/Corporate missions. The National Guard has such a system, where state awards can be worn subordinate to federal awards.
I think, though, that ribbons in CAP have gotten out of hand. We get ribbons for almost everything, to the point that only a few end up being meaningful, and they get lost in the crowd.
I would like to see the whole thing scrapped, and if an action did not meet the criteria for an AF award by the AF, then you will just have to keep wearing a blank jacket.
Or... you could enlist and earn a few on active duty. That's always an option!
Maybe put a letter "A" attachment on the ribbons for awards earned in "Auxiliary" status, but the awards should be regular USAF awards.
Quote from: cnitas on February 19, 2008, 04:53:58 PM
I just can't get the image of a cadet showing up to Airforce BMT with an Achievement medal, Humanitarian Service medal, and Expert Marksman ribbon out of my head...talk about an attention grabber. :o
If a cadet did not have sufficient sense to leave his CAP earned 'fruit salad' at home, at least till completing BMT, I question whether he or she even belongs in military service!
hawk > agreed.
Kach > state/fed decs in the guard is a good example.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 19, 2008, 08:10:07 PM
It is possible to have parallel awards systems... AF awards for exemplary actions on AF missions and CAP awards for training/Corporate missions. The National Guard has such a system, where state awards can be worn subordinate to federal awards.
I think, though, that ribbons in CAP have gotten out of hand. We get ribbons for almost everything, to the point that only a few end up being meaningful, and they get lost in the crowd.
I would like to see the whole thing scrapped, and if an action did not meet the criteria for an AF award by the AF, then you will just have to keep wearing a blank jacket.
Or... you could enlist and earn a few on active duty. That's always an option!
Maybe put a letter "A" attachment on the ribbons for awards earned in "Auxiliary" status, but the awards should be regular USAF awards.
While I certainly agree that CAP awards have gotten a little out of hand (esepcially for cadets), I don't think that regular AF awards are the answer. Lets stop awarding some of our own ribbons then. But turning to regular AF ribbons seems like a.....using the means the justify the end.
Problem: Too many CAP ribbons
Solution: Replace CAP ribbons with harder to earn AF ribbons.
There's a disconnect somewhere.
I just don't see this being a good idea at all. Like I said, I'm not a member of the military, so I would feel a little dirty about being awarded an AF medal. I don't believe it would give me any more credabilty with anyone, and I could just imagine the reactions of some members who have what looks like military rank insignia, and now military medals on their uniform.
Just because an Airmen got a medal for his actions during Katrina doesn't mean a CAP guy doing a different job should have it. What about all of the firemen, police, paramedics, and aid workers? They have their own award systems in place.
We're not firemen, police, ems, etc. While on AFAMs we are by law (primarily for liability & injury benefits purposes) civilian employees of the AF acting as legal agents (instermentality) of the fed govt.
And by the way, an amn who did no more than load supplies for a few hours in the course of his regular work day five states away got a HSM. A CAP aircrew that landed a multi-hundred thousand dollar aircraft between two moving semis on a freeway w/o damage or injury while conducting air recon on orders for 1AF so they could diagnose the degree of damage to levies & flood levels by GPS overlay... they got no recognition.
Quote from: DNall on February 20, 2008, 04:15:36 AM
We're not firemen, police, ems, etc. While on AFAMs we are by law (primarily for liability & injury benefits purposes) civilian employees of the AF acting as legal agents (instermentality) of the fed govt.
And by the way, an amn who did no more than load supplies for a few hours in the course of his regular work day five states away got a HSM. A CAP aircrew that landed a multi-hundred thousand dollar aircraft between two moving semis on a freeway w/o damage or injury while conducting air recon on orders for 1AF so they could diagnose the degree of damage to levies & flood levels by GPS overlay... they got no recognition.
Well, they should have gotten a CAP DSM or something similar, plus the whole lot should have picked up a Unit Citation.
http://isuhawkeye.blogspot.com/2006/11/ia-national-guard-recognizes-cap.html (http://isuhawkeye.blogspot.com/2006/11/ia-national-guard-recognizes-cap.html)
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1033.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1033.0)
Just an option that has been done in the past
I agree it is probably too late to return to the days when there was one set of awards, and we got them if we earned them. We have a parallel system, I suspect I know why, and the serpents cannot be put back in the box.
I also do not care about cadets getting massive awards. Nobody is going to mistake a 15-year old with 20 ribbons for an actual war hero. Also, in keeping with the ROTC and Junior ROTC programs, we should award ribbons for perfect attendance, passing tests, honor roll at school, etc. None of these would transfer to the officer uniform.
The solution, as I see it, would be to establish CAP awards parallel to USAF awards, and limit awards to those which the AF already has. So instead of scores of ribbons, we might boil it down to a dozen or so, max.
I tried that John, I got something on my other computer I'll put up in a bit. It knocked out 10 CAP ribbons (mostly low end of the spectrum), added two (aligning w/ AF), and made 10 (non-combat) AF decs avail (mostly higher level, incl unit citations). The AF decs under that would be much rarer than the CAP ribbons being eliminated, all of which are debatable, so net effect is reduction & more logical approach. I was a little disappointed with how it turned out.
Reason cadets don't get honor roll, attendance, etc ribbons is we aren't a school based program. Cadets are young, duh. They're easily motivated with crap like ribbons. A little clean up & a logical approach might be nice but I think it's okay now. What I might do is say cadet officers take off all the previous achievment ribbons & just wear the highest, or just phase awards. That'd pull it back down a bit before it goes over their shoulder.
Quote from: DNall on February 20, 2008, 05:31:38 PM
What I might do is say cadet officers take off all the previous achievment ribbons & just wear the highest, or just phase awards.
I would second that.
Quote from: DNall on February 20, 2008, 04:15:36 AM
We're not firemen, police, ems, etc. While on AFAMs we are by law (primarily for liability & injury benefits purposes) civilian employees of the AF acting as legal agents (instermentality) of the fed govt.
Fine, then authorize Air Force _civilian_ awards for CAP work: they already exist:
http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0106/00_PDFs/54-55_Awards_Decor.pdf
Quote from: DNall on February 20, 2008, 05:31:38 PM
What I might do is say cadet officers take off all the previous achievment ribbons & just wear the highest, or just phase awards.
HERE, HERE!
:clap:
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 20, 2008, 06:15:32 PM
Quote from: DNall on February 20, 2008, 05:31:38 PM
What I might do is say cadet officers take off all the previous achievment ribbons & just wear the highest, or just phase awards.
I would second that.
Make it all cadets!
Quote from: ddelaney103 on February 20, 2008, 06:25:59 PM
Quote from: DNall on February 20, 2008, 04:15:36 AM
We're not firemen, police, ems, etc. While on AFAMs we are by law (primarily for liability & injury benefits purposes) civilian employees of the AF acting as legal agents (instermentality) of the fed govt.
Fine, then authorize Air Force _civilian_ awards for CAP work: they already exist:
http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0106/00_PDFs/54-55_Awards_Decor.pdf
Were not civil servants, either. Those awards are for civil servants.
Quote from: DNall on February 20, 2008, 05:31:38 PM
I tried that John, I got something on my other computer I'll put up in a bit. It knocked out 10 CAP ribbons (mostly low end of the spectrum), added two (aligning w/ AF), and made 10 (non-combat) AF decs avail (mostly higher level, incl unit citations). The AF decs under that would be much rarer than the CAP ribbons being eliminated, all of which are debatable, so net effect is reduction & more logical approach. I was a little disappointed with how it turned out.
Reason cadets don't get honor roll, attendance, etc ribbons is we aren't a school based program. Cadets are young, duh. They're easily motivated with crap like ribbons. A little clean up & a logical approach might be nice but I think it's okay now. What I might do is say cadet officers take off all the previous achievment ribbons & just wear the highest, or just phase awards. That'd pull it back down a bit before it goes over their shoulder.
Now that you mention it, I think I remember your suggestion.
I think such a plan would go over well with the RLO's, but there aren't many RLO's left in CAP.
Quote from: JThemann on February 20, 2008, 07:14:57 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 20, 2008, 06:15:32 PM
Quote from: DNall on February 20, 2008, 05:31:38 PM
What I might do is say cadet officers take off all the previous achievment ribbons & just wear the highest, or just phase awards.
I would second that.
Make it all cadets!
No. We're not having rotating ribbon of the month. They aren't putting on a ribbon one month & taking it off forever a couple months later. CAC has talked about what I mentioned. Clasps are not an option cause they tear up ribbons, particularly with repeated changes.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on February 20, 2008, 06:25:59 PM
Quote from: DNall on February 20, 2008, 04:15:36 AM
We're not firemen, police, ems, etc. While on AFAMs we are by law (primarily for liability & injury benefits purposes) civilian employees of the AF acting as legal agents (instermentality) of the fed govt.
Fine, then authorize Air Force _civilian_ awards for CAP work: they already exist:
I'm aware of that. They are for DAF civil service employees. It's actually more of a problem to award those than it is mil decorations, and it's very debatable if they can be worn in CAP. They cannot be worn by mil personnel for service thru CAP & would get no promotion points for them. They are also far less applicable to what we're doing.
I really don't understand why people have so much trouble with the idea of military awards. Half of them are restricted to mil personnel, we're not touching those, but the rest are wide open to any civilian regardless of affiliation with any military. Thousands have been given to civilians for over a hundred years, including for non-combat contributions. It's really no big deal. ALL we'd be asking for is to run the approval process more like the AF rather than the way it is run for random guy off the street w/ no affiliation. That's completely appropriate & has massive benefits for CAP & the govt.
About the Commander's Commendation. Should there not be a distinguishment from National, Region, and Wing CC's? Something like Silver Star for NCC, Bronze Star for RCC, and plain for WCC.
What do you think? ???
^ Why?
There should be a designation as to from what level of command the CC came.
Quote from: FLCAP390707 on February 23, 2008, 09:02:28 PM
About the Commander's Commendation. Should there not be a distinguishment from National, Region, and Wing CC's? Something like Silver Star for NCC, Bronze Star for RCC, and plain for WCC.
What do you think? ???
They already distinguish it. If you earn the Commander's Commendation from the National Commander, you have a silver star on it. If it was awarded by Region or Wing, no silver star. I think that's pretty distinct.
Quote from: FLCAP390707 on February 23, 2008, 10:44:39 PM
There should be a designation as to from what level of command the CC came.
Why? Why should a Commendation from one level be any more distinguishable from another? Both are still commendations. The higher level commander could easily swing a higher dec, there would be very few people that could question it.
I think that for this idea to be submitted it would get more attention coming from a current or prior service type.
-- Just because the AF is more likely to listen to those folks.
Distinguish what level of command gave the commander commendation? Whatever for?
Is anyone planning on typing this up for submission? If not I'll do it, but might need some help with finese.
What's the consensus on the suggestion?
1. Suggest that CAP request the Air Force to manage our award system in total, using AF awards and eliminating ALL non-military CAP awards?
2. Suggest that CAP request the AF to award certain AF awards to CAP personnel who perform actions on Air Force Authorized Missions in lieu of CAP awards?
or
3. Establish a direct-parallel CAP award program with each AF award having a CAP counterpart award?
Uh...what's all this then?
I think CAP needs to award CAP awards. They should likely mirror USAF type awards. Some USAF ribbons might be appropriate for CAP when on USAF Assigned missions, however, I do not support handing CAP business over to the USAF.
The USAF has its own to consider, something tells me this idea of asking the USAF to manage CAP awards would not be a priority to them and would likely be an annoyance.
Quote from: Major Carrales on February 24, 2008, 07:23:07 PM
Uh...what's all this then?
I think CAP needs to award CAP awards. They should likely mirror USAF type awards. Some USAF ribbons might be appropriate for CAP when on USAF Assigned missions, however, I do not support handing CAP business over to the USAF.
The USAF has its own to consider, something tells me this idea of asking the USAF to manage CAP awards would not be a priority to them and would likely be an annoyance.
Amen Major. This is a classic case of some members fighting for a solution to a problem that no one else thinks is a problem.
Who's fighting?
I just asked what the consensus was to clarify what the suggestion, if any such suggestion is made, will be.
I think we can all agree that the number of CAP awards is so great and the requirements to earn them in many cases is so low, that CAP awards generally have become trivialized.
There are several solutions to this, and I listed at least 3 that have been discussed.
There has been talk of making a suggested change to the regulations, but I don't know what change is supported by the most folks.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 24, 2008, 06:49:57 PM
What's the consensus on the suggestion?
1. Suggest that CAP request the Air Force to manage our award system in total, using AF awards and eliminating ALL non-military CAP awards?
2. Suggest that CAP request the AF to award certain AF awards to CAP personnel who perform actions on Air Force Authorized Missions in lieu of CAP awards?
or
3. Establish a direct-parallel CAP award program with each AF award having a CAP counterpart award?
I think its a mix of #2 AND substituting USAF awards for CAP awards in situations where the criteria are the same or similar.
Also to a lesser extent awarding CAP members USAF awards that we would otherwise be eligible for.
Possibilities include:
Air Medal - criterion PLUS the fact that we got the first two.
GWOTSM - Many reasons not the least of which would be air intercept missions or CD
flights, or other similar taskings.
Air Force Volunteer Service MedalAir Force Longevity - case may be argued that we qualify
USAF Achievement Medal OR
USAF Civillian Achievement Medal- personally would prefer the former
Humanitarian Service Medal- However the DoD awarded the
Armed Forces Service Medal to all uniformed personnel for efforts in regard the Katrina and Rita
( did the CG Aux get this or just the PUC ? )
USAF Small Arms MarksmanshipArmed Forces Reserve Medal - currently given to Reserve, Guard and some Civies, case could be argued for us as well.
I think that by doing this we (I) are (am) directly trying to PREVENT # 3
- #3 would it devalue our position in regards to the USAF -
QuoteHumanitarian Service Medal
- However the DoD awarded the Armed Forces Service Medal to all uniformed personnel for efforts in regard the Katrina and Rita
( did the CG Aux get this or just the PUC ? )
CG Aux members in general only received the Presidential Unit Citation for Katrina. I suspect certain individual members received other applicable awards, but this doesn't seem to be one of them.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 24, 2008, 06:49:57 PM
What's the consensus on the suggestion?
1. Suggest that CAP request the Air Force to manage our award system in total, using AF awards and eliminating ALL non-military CAP awards?
2. Suggest that CAP request the AF to award certain AF awards to CAP personnel who perform actions on Air Force Authorized Missions in lieu of CAP awards?
or
3. Establish a direct-parallel CAP award program with each AF award having a CAP counterpart award?
I think its a mix of #2 AND substituting USAF awards for CAP awards in situations where the criteria are the same or similar.
Also to a lesser extent awarding CAP members USAF awards that we would otherwise be eligible for.
Possibilities include:
Air Medal - criterion PLUS the fact that we got the first two.
GWOTSM - Many reasons not the least of which would be air intercept missions or CD
flights, or other similar taskings.
Air Force Volunteer Service Medal
Air Force Longevity - case may be argued that we qualify
USAF Achievement Medal OR USAF Civillian Achievement Medal
- personally would prefer the former
Humanitarian Service Medal
- However the DoD awarded the Armed Forces Service Medal to all uniformed personnel for efforts in regard the Katrina and Rita
( did the CG Aux get this or just the PUC ? )
USAF Small Arms Marksmanship
Armed Forces Reserve Medal - currently given to Reserve, Guard and some Civies, case could be argued for us as well.
I think that by doing this we (I) are (am) directly trying to PREVENT # 3
- #3 would it devalue our position in regards to the USAF -
I agree, and I would add the Distinguished Flying Cross for heroism in aerial flight. Neither the Air Medal nor the DFC are exclusively combat awards, but combat increases the opportunities for heroism, to be sure.
We fly as targets in direct support of Noble Eagle, we SHOULD get the GWOT service medal after 60 nonconsecutive days.
Also the AF Commendation Medal.
I can't imagine that there are many, if any, CAP members or even CAP units, flying 60 days in a row on those sorts of missions.
Everything else looks good, but I would remove the GWOT Service Medal. Unless you patrolled the skies after 9/11 or were a guardsman ordered to defend the airports therafter, leave that one for the military.
And the AF Volunteer Service medal leave out too.....that is given to service members who also volunteer for things like CAP. Not CAP volunteering for an AFAM.
The wording of the GWOT Service medal criteria would be inclusive of CAP target-profile flights in support of Noble Eagle. I agree that 60 nonconsecutive days would probably exclude most CAP guys anyway. 60 nonconsecutive (or 30 consecutive) are required to qualify for the award.
I also meant to point out that the Volunteer Medal is already awarded to military guys who volunteer for CAP duty. Thanks for backing me up on that one, I forgot to include a comment on that.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 25, 2008, 01:51:08 AM
I can't imagine that there are many, if any, CAP members or even CAP units, flying 60 days in a row on those sorts of missions.
30 days consecutive OR 60 days nonconsecutive.
If you want to earn a USAF award, then join the USAF where you don't get to volunteer for where you go and what you do.
The Volunteer Service Medal (not just a USAF medal) was created to recognize those service members who took the "extra" time to support the community. Although it did tighten my jaw to see some people who had to leave work early every other Friday to get to their volunteer duty...
USAF awards have been cheapened enough over the years, but it would really cheapen them to start awarding them to CAP members. Sorry, but that is just the way I feel about it - and so does every senior NCO and senior Officer (active and retired) I have discussed this with.
So... What is the consensus of the suggestion?
I would support a combination of items 2 and 3.
-- Suggest that CAP petition the AF to include CAP members as AF members for certain awards when exhibiting heroism, exemplary conduct, or significant achievement on AF missions.
-- Streamline the CAP awards to coincide to a greater extent with the USAF awards. CAP awards would be for "Normal" duty outside of AFAM's.
Examples: Why do we need a "Cadet" and a "Senior" recruiting ribbon? Why do we issue separate awards for multiple missions in Cadet O-flights, SAR, CD, etc.? Why not a single "Aeronautical Achievement Medal" for say... 100 mission sorties regardless of type?
Quote from: Short Field on February 25, 2008, 03:22:02 AM
If you want to earn a USAF award, then join the USAF where you don't get to volunteer for where you go and what you do.
The Volunteer Service Medal (not just a USAF medal) was created to recognize those service members who took the "extra" time to support the community. Although it did tighten my jaw to see some people who had to leave work early every other Friday to get to their volunteer duty...
USAF awards have been cheapened enough over the years, but it would really cheapen them to start awarding them to CAP members. Sorry, but that is just the way I feel about it - and so does every senior NCO and senior Officer (active and retired) I have discussed this with.
Don't say everyone... I'm a retired officer, and I think the proposal is worth considering.
Remember, these awards would be limited to actions performed on AF missions. If a CAP member exhibits heroism while doing a job for the AF, why would the AF not want to recognize that fact?
Kach,
I don't think any petitioning is actually necessary. Technically, if you look at the AF awards manual, there is a procedure in place for recomending AF awards to civilians. I think there are two things that need to be done:
1. Insert language into the CAP awards manual (that the AF agrees to) on how CAP members can make recommendations (and to whom those recommendations should be directed -- obviously CAP-USAF state director who forwards them to CAP-USAF) for AF awards.
2. Change to AFI-10-2701 which states which AF awards CAP members are eligible for and which backs up the CAP awards regulation, and sets out specifically how CAP-USAF would handle any recommendations for AF awards for CAP members and the process to get any approvals needed beyond CAP-USAF.
Kach, concur on a blending of #s2 & 3.
Any chance there is already an awards committee @ National parallel to recent uniform review board, chaired I believe by Lt Col Dave White??
Ho-hum, why do we want to bother the USAF with this? I can see it now...
At some USAF installation a committee meets to discuss the award of medals and commendations for the given period.
General J. T. Wash: "Outstanding, let us get to work"
Major I. M. Arredondo: "Uh, sir, we have some 20,000 more awards to process before we can recommend they be submitted for processing and award."
General J. T. Wash: "What? Let me see some of those" (reads citations, verbalizes aloud) "Capt Eustice Capman awarded the USAF Commendation...what the heck is a "CADET SQUADRON?"
Major I. M. Arredondo: "Uh, sir, that is...I believe, a CAP squadron."
General J. T. Wash: "Combat Air Patrol? That makes no sense. What the hell is a 'TEXAS WING?'"
Major I. M. Arredondo: "Sir, that would be a Civil Air Patrol unit."
General J. T. Wash: "You mean to tell me we are wasting our time with all this paperwork for Civilians when Airmen are going unserviced?"
Major I. M. Arredondo: "Seems so, Sir. Still, they represent a valuable part of the USAF family!"
General J. T. Wash: "Oh really? You mean we should spend the time rejecting this here commendation for 'going beyond the call of duty for waiting for Cadet Patents to pick up their Children in a bad neighborhood', or this one 'Saved a waitress at Deny's from possibly pouring scalding water on a Cadet."
Major I. M. Arredondo: "No, Sir. I mean like these...er...this one's for pulling survivors from a buring crash, or this one where they participated vigilantly looking for brush fires and lastly this one for their work during earthquake and hurricane relief."
General J. T. Wash: "Shouldn't they be giving these things out. Arredondo, draft a letter to the Sec of the Air Force en re this matter"
End Scene!
The point of this play is to show the unecessary amount of work the USAF would have if they had to take on CAP awards and the occasionally frequent frivoulous documents that make their way up the chain.
Then one would likely suggest we put some sort of complicated filter on the matter on the CAP side to mitigate this. More levels of CAP to add to the already strained blokes giving all to accomplish the missions.
For every well deserved USAF award request how many do you think there will be where some guy gets the idea that "hey, I can put in for this...its not against the regs. What is the worst that could happen? My Group CC is a bud, he'll put it through."
Sorry, I just don't think the USAF has the time to deal with CAP medals. Unless it was someone who might monitor CAP awards and make the recommendation from the USAF side. That way, all they ahve to do is review CAP award committee documents. But, wouldn't that be awarding someone twice?
My gut feeling is leave CAP awards for CAP, design it to parallel the USAF, but they don't need to have to deal with that. They have wars to win!
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
Air Medal - criterion PLUS the fact that we got the first two.
Agreed, we have them in our history. Not even a stretch, really. And based on the criteria set forth, this could be awarded now to any CAP member meeting the criteria. The only thing that would reduce eligibility would be defining the "serving in any capacity in or with the Armed Forces".
Corporate missions would not be eligible due to that little clause. A CAP unique award would be appropriate.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
GWOTSM - Many reasons not the least of which would be air intercept missions or CD flights, or other similar taskings.
The GWOT-S has set criteria. Which requires
direct contribution to the war on terrorism. Air intercepts and CD flights aren't. Manufacturing criteria just so our members can get the award isn't kosher.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
Air Force Volunteer Service Medal
One, it is the "Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal", and is not an Air Force only decoration.
Some reading on that one: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/MIL%20OUTSTANDING%20VOLUNTEER%20SERVICE%20MEDAL1.html
As it shows, it is service to the civilian community by an
Armed Forces member. CAP members aren't Armed Forces members, they're civilians contributing to their community in a paramilitary organization.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMAir Force Longevity - case may be argued that we qualify
We have a Red Service ribbon, there is no need for us to get an Air Force award too. Besides, I have an AF Longevity Ribbon, as do more than a few others here. How would you go about accounting for CAP time on the same award?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMUSAF Achievement Medal OR USAF Civillian Achievement Medal
Not sure what this would get us. In the military, an Achievement medal equals things that CAP doesn't even have. Whats it do for us? Not sure I see the point of getting a military award to just get one.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMHumanitarian Service Medal
- However the DoD awarded the Armed Forces Service Medal to all uniformed personnel for efforts in regard the Katrina and Rita
Our members have worked side by side with military members, and the spirit of this award is fitting. It would require a change at the DOD level for us to be eligible, but if this were proposed, I would support this in a heartbeat.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMUSAF Small Arms Marksmanship
Not sure even why so many people want this. We don't need firearms to do our jobs, we're not even supposed to be carrying them for normal operations. Any airman can be required to pick a weapon and use it, the ribbon just shows a proficiency. There is no such requirement for CAP members. For CAP, it's simple bling hunting.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMArmed Forces Reserve Medal - currently given to Reserve, Guard and some Civies, case could be argued for us as well.
Not sure where you got the idea that civilians get this, it is an
Armed Forces Reserve Medal.
Some light reading on the AFRM: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/RESERVE_MEDAL.htm
CAP members do not even remotely qualify for this. CAP members are nowhere near the same type of volunteer as any military member. Reserve component members are subject to orders, enlistments, UCMJ, and several other conditions and benefits of being a military member. They don't have the option of saying "I'm a volunteer, you can't order me!".
My response on some of these may be harsh, but I'm being pretty straightforward. Responses on the AF side could range from a hearty laugh and a trip to the round file, to you being dressed down with a "What the devil are you thinking?"
I can appreciate certain military awards to CAP members, as long as the current criteria fit. Trying to revamp the military decorations system just so CAP members can get them is likely to cause the military to consider us pretenders and fools. We can't afford that image.
The best resource on military awards, decs, and some badges: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil
I would suggest reading it before suggesting that CAP members are "eligible for" or "entitled to" Armed Forces awards. It will save problems in the future.
Why did I let this one drift so much? ???
Uh-oh. Mike just discovered that the inmates have taken over the asylum.
Sparky:
Your scenario does present a problem, the fact that CAP officers may nominate one another for awards based on low-levels of achievement. But, and I want to emphasize this, we would ONLY seek AF/DoD awards for actual service an AFAM's.
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 25, 2008, 07:50:33 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
Air Medal - criterion PLUS the fact that we got the first two.
Agreed, we have them in our history. Not even a stretch, really. And based on the criteria set forth, this could be awarded now to any CAP member meeting the criteria. The only thing that would reduce eligibility would be defining the "serving in any capacity in or with the Armed Forces".
Corporate missions would not be eligible due to that little clause. A CAP unique award would be appropriate.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
GWOTSM - Many reasons not the least of which would be air intercept missions or CD flights, or other similar taskings.
The GWOT-S has set criteria. Which requires direct contribution to the war on terrorism. Air intercepts and CD flights aren't. Manufacturing criteria just so our members can get the award isn't kosher.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
Air Force Volunteer Service Medal
One, it is the "Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal", and is not an Air Force only decoration.
Some reading on that one: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/MIL%20OUTSTANDING%20VOLUNTEER%20SERVICE%20MEDAL1.html
As it shows, it is service to the civilian community by an Armed Forces member. CAP members aren't Armed Forces members, they're civilians contributing to their community in a paramilitary organization.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMAir Force Longevity - case may be argued that we qualify
We have a Red Service ribbon, there is no need for us to get an Air Force award too. Besides, I have an AF Longevity Ribbon, as do more than a few others here. How would you go about accounting for CAP time on the same award?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMUSAF Achievement Medal OR USAF Civillian Achievement Medal
Not sure what this would get us. In the military, an Achievement medal equals things that CAP doesn't even have. Whats it do for us? Not sure I see the point of getting a military award to just get one.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMHumanitarian Service Medal
- However the DoD awarded the Armed Forces Service Medal to all uniformed personnel for efforts in regard the Katrina and Rita
Our members have worked side by side with military members, and the spirit of this award is fitting. It would require a change at the DOD level for us to be eligible, but if this were proposed, I would support this in a heartbeat.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMUSAF Small Arms Marksmanship
Not sure even why so many people want this. We don't need firearms to do our jobs, we're not even supposed to be carrying them for normal operations. Any airman can be required to pick a weapon and use it, the ribbon just shows a proficiency. There is no such requirement for CAP members. For CAP, it's simple bling hunting.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMArmed Forces Reserve Medal - currently given to Reserve, Guard and some Civies, case could be argued for us as well.
Not sure where you got the idea that civilians get this, it is an Armed Forces Reserve Medal.
Some light reading on the AFRM: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/RESERVE_MEDAL.htm
CAP members do not even remotely qualify for this. CAP members are nowhere near the same type of volunteer as any military member. Reserve component members are subject to orders, enlistments, UCMJ, and several other conditions and benefits of being a military member. They don't have the option of saying "I'm a volunteer, you can't order me!".
My response on some of these may be harsh, but I'm being pretty straightforward. Responses on the AF side could range from a hearty laugh and a trip to the round file, to you being dressed down with a "What the devil are you thinking?"
I can appreciate certain military awards to CAP members, as long as the current criteria fit. Trying to revamp the military decorations system just so CAP members can get them is likely to cause the military to consider us pretenders and fools. We can't afford that image.
The best resource on military awards, decs, and some badges: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil
I would suggest reading it before suggesting that CAP members are "eligible for" or "entitled to" Armed Forces awards. It will save problems in the future.
Hawk:
The whole idea would be to reduce the overall number of awards for CAP people. IF, for example, the AF Longevity award was authorized for 4 years of satisfactory service in CAP (perhaps with a bronze "A" to designate Auxiliary service) we would eliminate the Red Service ribbon. If the HSM were authorized for service in a domestic disaster alongside Active/Reserve/Guard forces, we would eliminate the Disaster Service ribbon.
What is being discussed is a complete overhaul of the CAP awards program, similar to the overhaul of the uniform regulation currently underway.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 25, 2008, 02:28:32 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 25, 2008, 07:50:33 AM
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
Air Medal - criterion PLUS the fact that we got the first two.
Agreed, we have them in our history. Not even a stretch, really. And based on the criteria set forth, this could be awarded now to any CAP member meeting the criteria. The only thing that would reduce eligibility would be defining the "serving in any capacity in or with the Armed Forces".
Corporate missions would not be eligible due to that little clause. A CAP unique award would be appropriate.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
GWOTSM - Many reasons not the least of which would be air intercept missions or CD flights, or other similar taskings.
The GWOT-S has set criteria. Which requires direct contribution to the war on terrorism. Air intercepts and CD flights aren't. Manufacturing criteria just so our members can get the award isn't kosher.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PM
Air Force Volunteer Service Medal
One, it is the "Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal", and is not an Air Force only decoration.
Some reading on that one: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/MIL%20OUTSTANDING%20VOLUNTEER%20SERVICE%20MEDAL1.html
As it shows, it is service to the civilian community by an Armed Forces member. CAP members aren't Armed Forces members, they're civilians contributing to their community in a paramilitary organization.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMAir Force Longevity - case may be argued that we qualify
We have a Red Service ribbon, there is no need for us to get an Air Force award too. Besides, I have an AF Longevity Ribbon, as do more than a few others here. How would you go about accounting for CAP time on the same award?
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMUSAF Achievement Medal OR USAF Civillian Achievement Medal
Not sure what this would get us. In the military, an Achievement medal equals things that CAP doesn't even have. Whats it do for us? Not sure I see the point of getting a military award to just get one.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMHumanitarian Service Medal
- However the DoD awarded the Armed Forces Service Medal to all uniformed personnel for efforts in regard the Katrina and Rita
Our members have worked side by side with military members, and the spirit of this award is fitting. It would require a change at the DOD level for us to be eligible, but if this were proposed, I would support this in a heartbeat.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMUSAF Small Arms Marksmanship
Not sure even why so many people want this. We don't need firearms to do our jobs, we're not even supposed to be carrying them for normal operations. Any airman can be required to pick a weapon and use it, the ribbon just shows a proficiency. There is no such requirement for CAP members. For CAP, it's simple bling hunting.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 24, 2008, 10:52:18 PMArmed Forces Reserve Medal - currently given to Reserve, Guard and some Civies, case could be argued for us as well.
Not sure where you got the idea that civilians get this, it is an Armed Forces Reserve Medal.
Some light reading on the AFRM: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Awards/RESERVE_MEDAL.htm
CAP members do not even remotely qualify for this. CAP members are nowhere near the same type of volunteer as any military member. Reserve component members are subject to orders, enlistments, UCMJ, and several other conditions and benefits of being a military member. They don't have the option of saying "I'm a volunteer, you can't order me!".
My response on some of these may be harsh, but I'm being pretty straightforward. Responses on the AF side could range from a hearty laugh and a trip to the round file, to you being dressed down with a "What the devil are you thinking?"
I can appreciate certain military awards to CAP members, as long as the current criteria fit. Trying to revamp the military decorations system just so CAP members can get them is likely to cause the military to consider us pretenders and fools. We can't afford that image.
The best resource on military awards, decs, and some badges: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil
I would suggest reading it before suggesting that CAP members are "eligible for" or "entitled to" Armed Forces awards. It will save problems in the future.
Hawk:
The whole idea would be to reduce the overall number of awards for CAP people. IF, for example, the AF Longevity award was authorized for 4 years of satisfactory service in CAP (perhaps with a bronze "A" to designate Auxiliary service) we would eliminate the Red Service ribbon. If the HSM were authorized for service in a domestic disaster alongside Active/Reserve/Guard forces, we would eliminate the Disaster Service ribbon.
What is being discussed is a complete overhaul of the CAP awards program, similar to the overhaul of the uniform regulation currently underway.
Major, you've said this a a half dozen times, and it still doesn't make sense.
If you want to reduce the number of ribbons a CAP member can earn, then do it. Sticking Air Force bling on our uniforms doesn't solve the 'problem' we apparently have with having to many ribbons.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 25, 2008, 02:28:32 PM
Hawk:
The whole idea would be to reduce the overall number of awards for CAP people. IF, for example, the AF Longevity award was authorized for 4 years of satisfactory service in CAP (perhaps with a bronze "A" to designate Auxiliary service) we would eliminate the Red Service ribbon. If the HSM were authorized for service in a domestic disaster alongside Active/Reserve/Guard forces, we would eliminate the Disaster Service ribbon.
What is being discussed is a complete overhaul of the CAP awards program, similar to the overhaul of the uniform regulation currently underway.
Oh, I agree that we need to reduce the number of awards. I've put up a thread on this very idea myself. But, there needs to be some boundaries.
It seems that some people think that we (as CAP members) are already elibigle for a number of military awards and decs, and it is not true. The criteria for those are more or less written in stone, we cannot be trying to claim entitlement and eligibility for things when it clearly does not exist. For something like the HSM, the award would be fitting, and it would require a small change. For an AFRM, it's not.
Considering our dual nature, there are times when it would be highly inappropriate to award military decs, especially on corporate only missions. Not to mention, we can't be trying for things in a manner that the Air Force would consider frivolous. An achievement medal for those working directly with the AF on missions is appropriate. It's not for the unit that never works with the Air Force.
The new Commendation is a good concept. I'm a little concerned that it would be abused, but just about everything can be. But we also need to clean up some of the excessive decs that we have.
For example, our PD awards are loosely equivalent to Air Force PME. The Air Force has a single ribbon for that. As seniors, we have five. We don't need five. It's excessive. A CAP equivalent award is probably best for that.
Authorizing a Longevity for us would be an attempt to give separate criteria for a single award. I'm willing to bet that the Air Force isn't going to be willing to do that with their decs. Not to mention, the award criteria would have to be in Air Force publication.
I think that there are things that it is appropriate for us to receive mil decs. But for other things, it isn't. It would take a great deal of research to determine that. We need to see what fits, not take an "Ooh, I want that one!" view on it.
Quote from: JThemann on February 25, 2008, 05:33:35 PM
If you want to reduce the number of ribbons a CAP member can earn, then do it. Sticking Air Force bling on our uniforms doesn't solve the 'problem' we apparently have with having to many ribbons.
I've got to agree with Themann on this one. He's starting to show a great deal of wisdom.
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 25, 2008, 05:43:25 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 25, 2008, 02:28:32 PM
Hawk:
The whole idea would be to reduce the overall number of awards for CAP people. IF, for example, the AF Longevity award was authorized for 4 years of satisfactory service in CAP (perhaps with a bronze "A" to designate Auxiliary service) we would eliminate the Red Service ribbon. If the HSM were authorized for service in a domestic disaster alongside Active/Reserve/Guard forces, we would eliminate the Disaster Service ribbon.
What is being discussed is a complete overhaul of the CAP awards program, similar to the overhaul of the uniform regulation currently underway.
Oh, I agree that we need to reduce the number of awards. I've put up a thread on this very idea myself. But, there needs to be some boundaries.
It seems that some people think that we (as CAP members) are already elibigle for a number of military awards and decs, and it is not true. The criteria for those are more or less written in stone, we cannot be trying to claim entitlement and eligibility for things when it clearly does not exist. For something like the HSM, the award would be fitting, and it would require a small change. For an AFRM, it's not.
Considering our dual nature, there are times when it would be highly inappropriate to award military decs, especially on corporate only missions. Not to mention, we can't be trying for things in a manner that the Air Force would consider frivolous. An achievement medal for those working directly with the AF on missions is appropriate. It's not for the unit that never works with the Air Force.
The new Commendation is a good concept. I'm a little concerned that it would be abused, but just about everything can be. But we also need to clean up some of the excessive decs that we have.
For example, our PD awards are loosely equivalent to Air Force PME. The Air Force has a single ribbon for that. As seniors, we have five. We don't need five. It's excessive. A CAP equivalent award is probably best for that.
Authorizing a Longevity for us would be an attempt to give separate criteria for a single award. I'm willing to bet that the Air Force isn't going to be willing to do that with their decs. Not to mention, the award criteria would have to be in Air Force publication.
I think that there are things that it is appropriate for us to receive mil decs. But for other things, it isn't. It would take a great deal of research to determine that. We need to see what fits, not take an "Ooh, I want that one!" view on it.
Amen.
Quote from: Short Field on February 25, 2008, 03:22:02 AM
If you want to earn a USAF award, then join the USAF where you don't get to volunteer for where you go and what you do.
The Volunteer Service Medal (not just a USAF medal) was created to recognize those service members who took the "extra" time to support the community. Although it did tighten my jaw to see some people who had to leave work early every other Friday to get to their volunteer duty...
USAF awards have been cheapened enough over the years, but it would really cheapen them to start awarding them to CAP members. Sorry, but that is just the way I feel about it - and so does every senior NCO and senior Officer (active and retired) I have discussed this with.
I still see no problem with CAP using just CAP medals. There is absolutely no reason other than some ego stroking, that we need to be awarded Air Force medals. As a CAP member, we are never going to be part of the "family". If you want a military medal, join the military. Some of you have some odd motivations.
Also, will cadets be able to be awarded the military medals?
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 25, 2008, 05:43:25 PM
For example, our PD awards are loosely equivalent to Air Force PME. The Air Force has a single ribbon for that. As seniors, we have five. We don't need five. It's excessive. A CAP equivalent award is probably best for that.
Let's reduce it to two - one for specific CAP PD levels and one for PME completion. The second is a nod toward the stars that are placed on the Garber and Wilson ribbons for completing SOS/ACSC/AWC. At the risk of increasing cost, use ribbon bars with the award names to designate level completed, i.e. Membership is a plain ribbon, Davis has a "DAVIS" bar, Loening a "LOENING" bar, etc. Each bar is the same size so changing them is not too destructive to the ribbons. Only one ribbon with the highest bar is worn. Use something similar for the PME ribbon - only SOS, ACSC, and AWC would be eligible for the ribbon.
Using the bars 'personalizes' the ribbon to the award. Perhaps make each bar a different color to help distinguish the awards?
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 24, 2008, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: FLCAP390707 on February 23, 2008, 10:44:39 PM
There should be a designation as to from what level of command the CC came.
Why? Why should a Commendation from one level be any more distinguishable from another? Both are still commendations. The higher level commander could easily swing a higher dec, there would be very few people that could question it.
Exactly. The award has to do with the level of the accomplishment, not who recognizes it. If they are on region staff, then the region commander approves it, even though the award may be a gp or wg level approved award. If it's a more significant accomplishment then they should be put in for a higher level award.
Quote from: arajca on February 25, 2008, 06:05:15 PM
Let's reduce it to two - one for specific CAP PD levels and one for PME completion. The second is a nod toward the stars that are placed on the Garber and Wilson ribbons for completing SOS/ACSC/AWC. At the risk of increasing cost, use ribbon bars with the award names to designate level completed, i.e. Membership is a plain ribbon, Davis has a "DAVIS" bar, Loening a "LOENING" bar, etc. Each bar is the same size so changing them is not too destructive to the ribbons. Only one ribbon with the highest bar is worn. Use something similar for the PME ribbon - only SOS, ACSC, and AWC would be eligible for the ribbon.
Using the bars 'personalizes' the ribbon to the award. Perhaps make each bar a different color to help distinguish the awards?
You know, I kinda like this idea. It's simple, but it works. Use a basic PD ribbon for Level one. For Level 2 ad a bronze bar, Level 3: silver, Level 4: gold. We could reduce four ribbons to one. I could buy off on a separate ribbon for the Wilson, it's a pretty distinctive award. I don't think too many people even bother to get it.
There used to be an old ECI ribbon. You got it for doing their courses. Maybe use a similar concept and design a ribbon similar to the Air Force PME ribbon with clasps. (The Air Force PME ribbon is only for NCO PME, not officer courses.) Complete any one of the Air Force courses, get the basic ribbon. Get an additional oak leaf cluster for any additional courses completed. Set the wear criteria for it. It could work.
I think we should get away from the "get promoted, get a ribbon" concept. It's tantamount to getting two awards for a single accomplishment.
You know, this thread has drifted a little much. Should we start a new thread on some of these new ideas? Or just get back to the original topic?
Well, since my motives have been questioned, my positions twisted, and the questions I posed for discussion mistaken for advocacy, yes. Let's change the subject!
I'll start a new thread on revamping decs.
New thread here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4390.new#new