This is not really a Uniform thread, but at base, is seems to be. if so, may it be moved.
That being said, we are an organization that is split in its existance. The USAF and the CAP Distinctive. We have those that are prior service and those that have never served a day in the Service. We also have those that are out of certain standards. To this issue, our USAF benefactors have mandated that these certain cannot wear the USAF Style uniform.
Many proposals have been made over the last few years, likely as many as uniform combinations.
We should strive for a uniform appearance. The following is how I would address the matter to the most limited scope of uniforms for the most limited sorts of events.
Uniforms would be consolidated to 1 USAF style and 1 CAP Distinctive style. They would parallel each other. Cadets would be bound to USAF Style and Seniors could choose...
The "occasions" are as followed: Mess Dress (for the most formal affairs), Formal Dress (for those occasions to where a "business suit" would be worn), Semi-Formal (basically, a shirt and tie combo), Minimum Basic SERVICE DRESS (short sleeve combo...with/without ribbons and a flight cap for daily meeting use/base staff), Field Dress (BDU, ACU) (the dress of the Ground teams) and the Flight Suit (the garb of aviators).
These will create a "culture" for each uniform. Limited to the following combos...
USAF STYLE CAP DISTINCTIVE
MESS DRESS Standard Clack TUX w/ CAP Regalia and Minimedals
FORMAL SERVICE DRESS CAP SERVICE DRESS (USAF Style grey epaulets)
SEMI-FORMAL SERVICE DRESS While Shirt, CAP Should Marks, blue pants, Blue Tie
Minimum Basic SERVICE DRESS Short Sleeve White Shirt, blue pants
Field Dress (BDU, ACU) Blue BDUs
USAF Flight SUIT CAP Flight Suit
What's more, there would be defined times to wear. Meetings would be in Minimum Basic Service Dress (temperature and weather specific) or Semi- Formal (tie version). SARex would be Fligth suit and/or BDUs for operational people and missions base staff in Minimum Basic Service Dress.
No golf shirts...if one can put on a pair of pants and a pull over shirt then one can put on a pair of pants and a shirt that buttons in the front (and iron/press it). Since we don't wear it daily, that should not be an issue.
Please comment and adjust as necessary.
I like it... make it so.
And what do the fuzzies wear?
The CAP distinctive.
Quote from: SarDragon on July 27, 2007, 06:03:13 AM
And what do the fuzzie wear?
CAP DISTINCTIVE, the beard would be allowed if properly trimmed. Trimming a beard is not to much to ask, surely not as much as shaving it off.
The idea of CAP DISTINCTIVE should allow for ONE alternative, not a slew of them. Thus, the CAP DISTINCTIVE should be able to be worn by all. That is a failing of the current "corporate dress," its exclusive nature makes it a bit...well, moot at best...pointless at worst.
I think a reduction of uniforms would be a good thing. And I think two sets would be just fine. One AF, one corp.
As far as the corporate side goes, it's a mess. A person wearing blues looks like the next wearing blues, but one person wearing a corporate doesn't necessarily match another wearing corporates. There's blue/white, grey/white, and grey/golf. And with golf, there's three variations authorized.
On the AF variants, it's with a coat, or without. On the without, it's long or short sleeve. Very little variation.
On the utility side, why do we even need a jumpsuit when there is now a corporate BDU? It's a carryover that served little purpose.
I wouldn't bother with "Formal" or "Semi-formal" uniform variations. In the Air Force, "Service Dress" means you're wearing the jacket. "Blues" means anything up to, but not necessarily including Service Dress. Keep it simple.
I hope you mean "ABU", and not "ACU". If you mean "ABU", then no issues. If you mean "ACU", that's the "Army Combat Uniform". And I can guarantee we're not getting those. The Air Force would have kittens. (Which could be entertaining. ;D)
As for designated times for certain uniforms, I wouldn't bother. There are people that would rather spend the money on one or two sets of BDUs, and the rest on something else. Like dues. We have a body or two in our unit that are that strapped. And I wouldn't force them to make the choice between a uniform and maintaining a membership if you put a gun to my head. I've helped people get out fitted when it came to uniforms for CAP, spent a few of my own dollars. I'd rather not see it restrictive.
Why have two sets?
Pick one or the other.
The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation. Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are. That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.
So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 27, 2007, 06:20:59 AM
Why have two sets?
Pick one or the other.
The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation. Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are. That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.
So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.
OK. Who do you give up? Your choices are the ones that want the corporate, or the ones that want military. Who are you going to sacrifice?
It would be delusional to think that no one would leave over a major change like that.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 27, 2007, 06:16:52 AM
I hope you mean "ABU", and not "ACU". If you mean "ABU", then no issues. If you mean "ACU", that's the "Army Combat Uniform". And I can guarantee we're not getting those. The Air Force would have kittens. (Which could be entertaining. ;D)
As for designated times for certain uniforms, I wouldn't bother. There are people that would rather spend the money on one or two sets of BDUs, and the rest on something else. Like dues. We have a body or two in our unit that are that strapped. And I wouldn't force them to make the choice between a uniform and maintaining a membership if you put a gun to my head. I've helped people get out fitted when it came to uniforms for CAP, spent a few of my own dollars. I'd rather not see it restrictive.
The "ACU" I used only as an example of field uniform. "ABU" should have been there as well. I appologize.
Ideally, the existing Corp Service Coat woudl be the best way to go...since many people already have them. I chose to use the "Service Coat with Grey epaulets" to avoid the endless debates about the so-called "TPU." My original draft had that...but, that's life.
I went back to the old WWII idea of "layering." Exactally for those with limited funds.
The idea being...
1) I've joined, buy 1 pair of blue USAF style pants, 1 USAF style shirt short sleeve (or white aviator shirt), a nametag black oxfords. Flight CAP.
2) Six Months later, buy 2d Lt shoulder marks, get a white long sleeve aviator shirt (or USAF long sleeve...10 dollars from OLC. Save up for Flight Suit/ or BDUs (likely cheap form surplus store).
3) A year later, update shoulder marks (if lucky the Squadron had bought some senior member shoulder marks and let's you trade out as you advance...I am going to do this in my unit and my expense once I've finished doing the same for cadets) buy high gloss dress Oxfords.
4) Within the next year, save up and purchase service coat.
5) By the Rank of Captain one has a service coat, service cap, Flight/Field uniform, meeting uniform and built up to it over time.
You don't give up anyone.....people don't join CAP for the uniform.
If someone quits because of a stupid uniform...we don't need him or want him (or I don't).
But having two uniforms base on preference and/or weight/grooming standards creates an unnecessary Us vs Them situation.
One uniform one team!
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 27, 2007, 06:26:56 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 27, 2007, 06:20:59 AM
Why have two sets?
Pick one or the other.
The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation. Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are. That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.
So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.
OK. Who do you give up? Your choices are the ones that want the corporate, or the ones that want military. Who are you going to sacrifice?
It would be delusional to think that no one would leave over a major change like that.
I agree with Hawk...and I'll go further with my famous hyperbole. ;)
If we had to "give one up" it would have to be the USAF style because it is restrictive by nature...whereas any CAP DISTINCTIVE uniform would exist based on the whim of the time. It could be a "gray jumpsuit," or an "powder blue Ike Jacket" number. It might be a golf shirt and shorts.
The only way to keep the USAF style, and maintain that link, is to have an alternative for those that cannot meet the standards (for whatever valid reason) If we are to have an alternative, then I say let us have but ONE!!!
If I understand Lord M correctly, he's saying that it is only CAP regulations that limit who can/ or cannot wear USAF uniform....in other words, back when this whole furor arose in the mid to late 80s, apparently, by affixing a 'CAP' national organizational patch (say to the shoulder opposite the one with wing patch), everyone could have continued using USAF style right through to today.
I did not know this....and can only imagine that CAP leadership chose to go the corporate route to maintain harmony with USAF leadership -- it might have been
legal for CAP to ignore the Air Force's views on uniforms/grooming/height-weight standards, but probably would not have been prudent.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 27, 2007, 06:20:59 AM
Why have two sets?
Pick one or the other.
The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation. Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are. That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.
So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.
Gee, if corporates are picked, I- and those like me- will leave. If USAF are chosen, people like Lt.Col. Bagley will leave. Who are you willing to lose?
I think that a commander could control the formality level by having a UOD schedule that all know. For example: weeks 1,2,4 are mainly cadets, so UOD would be utilities, and the 3rd week is the combined meeting, so UOD is basic Service Dress. For those who can afford them, when a dignitary comes to visit, be them Wing, Group, or other High ranking Civilian such as Mayor, City Manager, etc- wear the service coat as well.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 27, 2007, 06:32:43 AM
You don't give up anyone.....people don't join CAP for the uniform.
If someone quits because of a stupid uniform...we don't need him or want him (or I don't).
But having two uniforms base on preference and/or weight/grooming standards creates an unnecessary Us vs Them situation.
One uniform one team!
I disagree, that situation would only exist in a "petty minded" organization, I think more highly of us. I think, rather, that is solves the problem nicely to have a "one on one" alternative that everyone could wear.
If I wanted to wear the alternative, it would be there for me...even if I meet the standards.
Fact is, we have a uniform and should have one...it is the sign of a professional organization. This is recognized from bus drivers to EMS personel, from police departments to the USAF.
The only other alternative would be to have one uniform...a utility sort that could be modified to appear formal. I don't know about you, but I would not like to wear something that looks like "Star Trek: Enterprise." where they wear a blue "flight suit" like uniform for all occasions and wear a tie under it to apprear "formal."
(http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/5/53/Earth_starfleet_uniform.jpg/180px-Earth_starfleet_uniform.jpg)
(http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/7/70/Earth_starfleet_flag_office.jpg/180px-Earth_starfleet_flag_office.jpg)
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 27, 2007, 06:30:45 AM
I went back to the old WWII idea of "layering." Exactally for those with limited funds.
The idea being...
1) I've joined, buy 1 pair of blue USAF style pants, 1 USAF style shirt short sleeve (or white aviator shirt), a nametag black oxfords. Flight CAP.
2) Six Months later, buy 2d Lt shoulder marks, get a white long sleeve aviator shirt (or USAF long sleeve...10 dollars from OLC. Save up for Flight Suit/ or BDUs (likely cheap form surplus store).
3) A year later, update shoulder marks (if lucky the Squadron had bought some senior member shoulder marks and let's you trade out as you advance...I am going to do this in my unit and my expense once I've finished doing the same for cadets) buy high gloss dress Oxfords.
4) Within the next year, save up and purchase service coat.
5) By the Rank of Captain one has a service coat, service cap, Flight/Field uniform, meeting uniform and built up to it over time.
Certainly a practice straight out of that era, and an example of how people tended to make a practice of "look before you leap" back then. Is it possible to pine for "good ol' days" that you're nowhere near old enough to experience? Those time periods seem to be so much classier than the present.
Anyway, how do propose to handle the issue of field work? Your method is a remarkably simple and practical method, but it does kind of restrict some activities a person would be able to perform. Utilities are generally easier and cheaper to obtain than the dressier stuff, and you can go tromping around the woods in them all day.
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 27, 2007, 06:34:58 AMThe only way to keep the USAF style, and maintain that link, is to have an alternative for those that cannot meet the standards (for whatever valid reason) If we are to have an alternative, then I say let us have but ONE!!!
Let's hope that a few more people in the right places listen to this same voice of reason.
Quote from: lordmonar on July 27, 2007, 06:32:43 AM
You don't give up anyone.....people don't join CAP for the uniform.
I don't know whether to be puzzled or shocked. Have you actually been reading this board?
Quote from: lordmonar on July 27, 2007, 06:32:43 AM
But having two uniforms base on preference and/or weight/grooming standards creates an unnecessary Us vs Them situation.
There already is an "Us vs. Them". Unfortunately, we have some idiots that think that anyone wearing anything other than AF variant is inferior. An utterly moronic belief, but it is here. Give it a few minutes, they'll show up to protest.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 27, 2007, 06:50:10 AM
Certainly a practice straight out of that era, and an example of how people tended to make a practice of "look before you leap" back then. Is it possible to pine for "good ol' days" that you're nowhere near old enough to experience? Those time periods seem to be so much classier than the present.
Anyway, how do propose to handle the issue of field work? Your method is a remarkably simple and practical method, but it does kind of restrict some activities a person would be able to perform. Utilities are generally easier and cheaper to obtain than the dressier stuff, and you can go tromping around the woods in them all day.
I'm not really trying to pine for "those days," but rather taking a practice that may work for us from those times. Granted, there are some here what would like us in Silvertans and Ike Jackets, and I too (as many from my time) do stand in awe of that Generation.
The method I propose is merely the rationale behind my uniform choices, based on what I would do (and have done). Utilities should be added to that list, if is what is called for. But, then again, I've seen police and EMS personnel preform similar jobs in what amounts to Minimum Service Dress.
Minimum Service Dress, in my opinion, is a universal uniform for the area in which I live and operate. If you had to you could do ES (UDF and the like) in it, you can make it more formal simply by adding ribbons and a service cap and it is not dissimilar from what many small business commercial pilots fly in. That is my rationale.
A Utility uniform can do much of the same, so a 2d Lt with Minimum Service Dress and a set of BDUs has it made.
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 27, 2007, 06:38:38 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on July 27, 2007, 06:20:59 AM
Why have two sets?
Pick one or the other.
The only regulation that gives the USAF a veto on the USAF style uniform is a CAP regulation. Federal Law permits us to wear any.....yes any....military style uniforms so long as we wear a big patch on the shoulder saying who we really are. That is how ACA is able to use any uniform they want and most military schools.
So....either pick the corporates or the USAF style but not both.
Gee, if corporates are picked, I- and those like me- will leave. If USAF are chosen, people like Lt.Col. Bagley will leave. Who are you willing to lose?
I think that a commander could control the formality level by having a UOD schedule that all know. For example: weeks 1,2,4 are mainly cadets, so UOD would be utilities, and the 3rd week is the combined meeting, so UOD is basic Service Dress. For those who can afford them, when a dignitary comes to visit, be them Wing, Group, or other High ranking Civilian such as Mayor, City Manager, etc- wear the service coat as well.
Im willing to lose anyone who would leave because of what we wear. Do you suppose that those who join the Armed Forces knowing they will be sent to Iraq or AFGN do so because they will be allowed to wear "digitals?" I doubt it. Im sort of weary of the argument that folks join to be able to dress in uniform. If thats the case, they should save themselves money and CAP alot of time and go to their local uniform/surplus shop, get some ABUs, ACUs, whatever and where them to mow the lawn. They can even wear a beret or boonies.
The fact that uniforms spin of thread after thread after thread is a disturbing thing and the fact that so many continue to but heads like mountain sheep is even more disturbing.
So far, Major Carrales has provided the only logical, sensible solution and addressed how regulation would determine what is worn and by whom. Blue shirt or white shirt. Camo or blue. Simple and straightforward, no ambiguity and no one left out. Same pips and strips and patches on both and off we go, into the wild blue yonder.
If the good Major has not yet been recognized for his common sense approach to common sense problems (actually they are issues until the membership gets ahold of them which is where they become problems) then he should be. We cant all wear AFs and some of use refuse to wear corporates, so the only answer that makes sense, saves money and eliminates the constant debating is two sets of uniforms one AF and one distinctive which mirror each other in style and function. I say submit it to NHQ and begin implementation ASAP.
The senior-squadron-polo-shirt-wearing-flying-club-types will positively have a conniption fit if their beloved polo shirt combination ceases to be a valid uniform.
Maybe rightly so, The golf shirt combo is the probably the most comfortable for a lot of our flying and certainly doesn't look as wrinkled as a sweatly, wrinkled white shirt after 2-3 hours of flying in the southern sun..
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 27, 2007, 06:38:38 AM
[Gee, if corporates are picked, I- and those like me- will leave. If USAF are chosen, people like Lt.Col. Bagley will leave. Who are you willing to lose?
Gee, I'm not exactly sure I would like to hear the answer to that question! ;D
I have a set of AF blues and am working diligently to be able to wear them. But until I can, I have the corporate uniform.
Sparky's got the
single best idea yet -- with all respect to Kach, who as National CC would do something just a little different but quite inspired.
One AF set, one Corporate set, make your choice and live with it.
Why not?
Jack
Quote from: capchiro on July 27, 2007, 01:01:45 PM
Maybe rightly so, The golf shirt combo is the probably the most comfortable for a lot of our flying and certainly doesn't look as wrinkled as a sweaty, wrinkled white shirt after 2-3 hours of flying in the southern sun..
If you take my golf shirt away, can I at least have it as an approved casual (off duty) shirt for the times that the uniform may not be appropriate - like senior attitude adjustment periods?
I also agree with it as a fine summer flight option here int he desert SW.
FYI, the Ultimate uniform poll indicated 53% of CAPTALK members like the current mix of AF and corporate uniforms. No other option (AF only, Corp only, AF only with weight standards, etc.) even came close.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1385.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1385.0)
Quote from: RiverAux on July 27, 2007, 04:36:53 PM
FYI, the Ultimate uniform poll indicated 53% of CAPTALK members like the current mix of AF and corporate uniforms. No other option (AF only, Corp only, AF only with weight standards, etc.) even came close.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1385.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1385.0)
QuoteCurrent situation (AF-style, CAP, "civilian" uniforms
AF-style only, but with no specific height/weight requirements (like CG Aux)
AF-style only but with height/weight requirements
CAP uniforms (Blue flight suits, BBDUs, etc.) only
"Civilian uniforms" (gray slacks/golf shirts, etc.).
No uniform at all. Wear whatever you want.
That poll does not have my "option" on it now does it? My option would have been... "1 USAF Style and 1 CAP Style."
Some corrections:
QuoteUSAF STYLE CAP DISTINCTIVE
MESS DRESS Standard Black TUX w/ CAP Regalia and Minimedals
FORMAL SERVICE DRESS CAP SERVICE DRESS Corporate Service Coat (USAF Style grey epaulets)
SEMI-FORMAL long sleeve SERVICE DRESS White Shirt, CAP Should Marks, blue pants, Blue Tie
Minimum Basic short sleeve SERVICE DRESS Short Sleeve White Shirt, blue pants
Field Uniform dress(BDU, ACU) Blue BDUs
USAF Flight SUIT Dress Uniform CAP Flight Suit
That being done, it's not a bad idea - except you don't answer the F&F question: what do they do if they can wear neither AF nor Corp threads?
Quote from: ddelaney103 on July 27, 2007, 08:49:49 PM
Some corrections:
QuoteUSAF STYLE CAP DISTINCTIVE
MESS DRESS Standard Black TUX w/ CAP Regalia and Minimedals
FORMAL SERVICE DRESS CAP SERVICE DRESS Corporate Service Coat (USAF Style grey epaulets)
SEMI-FORMAL long sleeve SERVICE DRESS White Shirt, CAP Should Marks, blue pants, Blue Tie
Minimum Basic short sleeve SERVICE DRESS Short Sleeve White Shirt, blue pants
Field Uniform dress(BDU, ACU) Blue BDUs
USAF Flight SUIT Dress Uniform CAP Flight Suit
That being done, it's not a bad idea - except you don't answer the F&F question: what do they do if they can wear neither AF nor Corp threads?
I did, a while back...
The idea of CAP DISTINCTIVE should allow for ONE alternative, not a slew of them. Thus, the CAP DISTINCTIVE should be able to be worn by all. That is a failing of the current "corporate dress," its exclusive nature makes it a bit...well, moot at best...pointless at worst.
CAP DISTINCTIVE should be worn by all, F&F as well.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on July 27, 2007, 11:09:08 AM
The senior-squadron-polo-shirt-wearing-flying-club-types will positively have a conniption fit if their beloved polo shirt combination ceases to be a valid uniform.
So be it
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 27, 2007, 08:58:08 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on July 27, 2007, 08:49:49 PM
Some corrections:
QuoteUSAF STYLE CAP DISTINCTIVE
MESS DRESS Standard Black TUX w/ CAP Regalia and Minimedals
FORMAL SERVICE DRESS CAP SERVICE DRESS Corporate Service Coat (USAF Style grey epaulets)
SEMI-FORMAL long sleeve SERVICE DRESS White Shirt, CAP Should Marks, blue pants, Blue Tie
Minimum Basic short sleeve SERVICE DRESS Short Sleeve White Shirt, blue pants
Field Uniform dress(BDU, ACU) Blue BDUs
USAF Flight SUIT Dress Uniform CAP Flight Suit
That being done, it's not a bad idea - except you don't answer the F&F question: what do they do if they can wear neither AF nor Corp threads?
I did, a while back...
The idea of CAP DISTINCTIVE should allow for ONE alternative, not a slew of them. Thus, the CAP DISTINCTIVE should be able to be worn by all. That is a failing of the current "corporate dress," its exclusive nature makes it a bit...well, moot at best...pointless at worst.
CAP DISTINCTIVE should be worn by all, F&F as well.
So Major, here are you saying that the corporate "mess dress" would be a "civilian" tux? Wouldnt the "TPU" work with black tie or would that be a no-no. The only reason I say this is that I thought mixed civilian with corporate items was not allowed
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 28, 2007, 02:47:06 AM
So Major, here are you saying that the corporate "mess dress" would be a "civilian" tux? Wouldnt the "TPU" work with black tie or would that be a no-no. The only reason I say this is that I thought mixed civilian with corporate items was not allowed
Good point, however the USAF style in CAP forbids the "bow tie" combination for CAP Officers...I merely drew that line across.
The TUX was the least complicated idea I could think of.
It would be the plain black type. One would use the high gloss Oxfords of the Service Dress. The undershirt would be of the "plain collar" type (not the "little points") The Bow tie, however, and cumberbund would be the MESS DRESS type. One would wear their medals on their lapels and the CAP seal on the same side as the ribbons (opposite of USAF style MESS DRESS wear)
Such a TUX is easily rented and would serve even as an alternate to the MESS DRESS for folks that have not purchased mess dress.
The attached "poor" photoshop job demonstrates what I mean.
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 28, 2007, 03:15:56 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 28, 2007, 02:47:06 AM
So Major, here are you saying that the corporate "mess dress" would be a "civilian" tux? Wouldnt the "TPU" work with black tie or would that be a no-no. The only reason I say this is that I thought mixed civilian with corporate items was not allowed
Good point, however the USAF style in CAP forbids the "bow tie" combination for CAP Officers...I merely drew that line across.
I wouldn't have a problem with the TPU worn with a bow tie. That uniform is definitely more expensive than AF service dress, whoever bought it deserves a break.
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 28, 2007, 02:47:06 AM
So Major, here are you saying that the corporate "mess dress" would be a "civilian" tux? Wouldnt the "TPU" work with black tie or would that be a no-no. The only reason I say this is that I thought mixed civilian with corporate items was not allowed
Why not? AFI 36-2903 says I can wear my miniature medals with civilian formalwear.
Further, the VA wants me to wear my ribbons or medals on holidays:
http://www1.va.gov/opa/veteranspride/index.asp
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 28, 2007, 03:15:56 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 28, 2007, 02:47:06 AM
So Major, here are you saying that the corporate "mess dress" would be a "civilian" tux? Wouldnt the "TPU" work with black tie or would that be a no-no. The only reason I say this is that I thought mixed civilian with corporate items was not allowed
Good point, however the USAF style in CAP forbids the "bow tie" combination for CAP Officers...I merely drew that line across.
The TUX was the least complicated idea I could think of.
It would be the plain black type. One would use the high gloss Oxfords of the Service Dress. The undershirt would be of the "plain collar" type (not the "little points") The Bow tie, however, and cumberbund would be the MESS DRESS type. One would wear their medals on their lapels and the CAP seal on the same side as the ribbons (opposite of USAF style MESS DRESS wear)
Such a TUX is easily rented and would serve even as an alternate to the MESS DRESS for folks that have not purchased mess dress.
The attached "poor" photoshop job demonstrates what I mean.
Don't wear them on the lapel. First, that's Army style - the AF wears them on the chest. Second, people would have to find tuxedos with lapels large enough for the medals.
I could see a semi formal TPU with bow tie, miniature medals and no nametag.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on July 28, 2007, 04:30:27 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 28, 2007, 03:15:56 AM
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 28, 2007, 02:47:06 AM
So Major, here are you saying that the corporate "mess dress" would be a "civilian" tux? Wouldnt the "TPU" work with black tie or would that be a no-no. The only reason I say this is that I thought mixed civilian with corporate items was not allowed
Good point, however the USAF style in CAP forbids the "bow tie" combination for CAP Officers...I merely drew that line across.
The TUX was the least complicated idea I could think of.
It would be the plain black type. One would use the high gloss Oxfords of the Service Dress. The undershirt would be of the "plain collar" type (not the "little points") The Bow tie, however, and cumberbund would be the MESS DRESS type. One would wear their medals on their lapels and the CAP seal on the same side as the ribbons (opposite of USAF style MESS DRESS wear)
Such a TUX is easily rented and would serve even as an alternate to the MESS DRESS for folks that have not purchased mess dress.
The attached "poor" photoshop job demonstrates what I mean.
Don't wear them on the lapel. First, that's Army style - the AF wears them on the chest. Second, people would have to find tuxedos with lapels large enough for the medals.
I could see a semi formal TPU with bow tie, miniature medals and no nametag.
Hummm...I thought the TUX option would be preferable to the "TPU." We can move them to the chest of the TUX. Minimedals have always seemed to me to look "off" on a service coat.
So, Sparky, would the non-AF "mess dress" (Tux uniform) be acceptable if I wore a Prince Charlie jacket with my kilt? Medals, etc., pin on that just nice. Take a look.
Jack
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: ColonelJack on July 27, 2007, 03:35:28 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 27, 2007, 06:38:38 AM
[Gee, if corporates are picked, I- and those like me- will leave. If USAF are chosen, people like Lt.Col. Bagley will leave. Who are you willing to lose?
Gee, I'm not exactly sure I would like to hear the answer to that question! ;D
I have a set of AF blues and am working diligently to be able to wear them. But until I can, I have the corporate uniform.
Sparky's got the single best idea yet -- with all respect to Kach, who as National CC would do something just a little different but quite inspired.
One AF set, one Corporate set, make your choice and live with it.
Why not?
Jack
The only problem I have with the AF/Corp dichotomy is that it is not "uniform"
My first choice would be to go all USAF. But that may get Mother Blue all in a tizzy.
So my second choice would be all corporates.
This gets us all in one set of uniforms.
As for people quiting because we don't wear USAF blue....well there you go. I have to question your motivation and dedication to anything CAP stands for.
I personally would serve CAP if we all just wore civilian cloths can called each other by our first names. I joined CAP to serve my community not to look all spiffy.
Having said that....I like to look spiffy....but I'll continue to serve even if I have to look just like everyone else.
That will really separate us from the cadets though. I like to work with cadets and prefer to set an example for them with the correct uniform.
I can see going to all corporate when working with the senior side. But when you work with cadets it is helpful to follow the same standards that they do; uniforms, customs, etc.. I know that there are some that don't go with the AF style when they are working with cadets but it is better for some to than none.
And anyone who thinks the cadets will stay if we drop the military uniforms is living in a dream world.
Quote from: ColonelJack on July 28, 2007, 04:51:46 AM
So, Sparky, would the non-AF "mess dress" (Tux uniform) be acceptable if I wore a Prince Charlie jacket with my kilt? Medals, etc., pin on that just nice. Take a look.
Jack
Nice, but I don't want to drop $300+ on a CAP tartan, 'cause you know the Rangers wouldn't rest until it had blaze orange stripes in it.
I have worn my mini's on Scottish formal wear and wore my full size medals last Memorial Day. I ended up directing traffic in my kilt and shirt after a Beltway accident.
Still haven't gotten my Silver Medal, though.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on July 28, 2007, 03:40:22 PM
Nice, but I don't want to drop $300+ on a CAP tartan, 'cause you know the Rangers wouldn't rest until it had blaze orange stripes in it.
I have worn my mini's on Scottish formal wear and wore my full size medals last Memorial Day. I ended up directing traffic in my kilt and shirt after a Beltway accident.
Still haven't gotten my Silver Medal, though.
Blaze orange on a kilt? EEEWWWWWWW......
Wish we could all get a SMV for directing traffic.
(By the way ... anyone can get the kilt and Prince Charlie as I wear in the photo. The beautiful woman you have to provide for yourself.)
Jack
Quote from: RiverAux on July 28, 2007, 02:09:35 PM
And anyone who thinks the cadets will stay if we drop the military uniforms is living in a dream world.
I agree 100% with that assessment. That's why I believe we need
two uniform sets -- one AF and one corporate.
And that's it.
Like Sparky said.
Jack
Quote from: ddelaney103 on July 28, 2007, 03:40:22 PM
Quote from: ColonelJack on July 28, 2007, 04:51:46 AM
So, Sparky, would the non-AF "mess dress" (Tux uniform) be acceptable if I wore a Prince Charlie jacket with my kilt? Medals, etc., pin on that just nice. Take a look.
Jack
Nice, but I don't want to drop $300+ on a CAP tartan, 'cause you know the Rangers wouldn't rest until it had blaze orange stripes in it.
I have worn my mini's on Scottish formal wear and wore my full size medals last Memorial Day. I ended up directing traffic in my kilt and shirt after a Beltway accident.
Still haven't gotten my Silver Medal, though.
Orange has already been done quite a wihle before there was even a CAP; IIRC a number of 'ancient' tartans feature an orange shade as a 'faded red' or something to that effect. I defer, however, to those who possess a greater depth of knowledge on the subject than I. I'd try my own hand at a tartan design but I've yet to find a copy of the software to do it in a presentable manner given my meager skills.
An aside to Colonel Jack: which pattern was that?
Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on July 28, 2007, 09:05:37 PM
An aside to Colonel Jack: which pattern was that?
MacDonald of the Isles. I have three MacDonald tartans -- regular, Dress Blue, and "of the Isles." I also maintain a Royal Stewart, though my connection to that clan is tenuous at best. (Sharp looking kilt, though.)
Jack
Quote from: edmo1 on July 28, 2007, 10:31:15 AM
That will really separate us from the cadets though. I like to work with cadets and prefer to set an example for them with the correct uniform.
I can see going to all corporate when working with the senior side. But when you work with cadets it is helpful to follow the same standards that they do; uniforms, customs, etc.. I know that there are some that don't go with the AF style when they are working with cadets but it is better for some to than none.
????
Who said any thing about cadets wearing USAF style!? They wear corporates too!
ONE TEAM, ONE UNIFORM!
A couple of things. FIrst, we need to all look like one organization. THe boy Scouts does it very well. I am kind of growing on the corporate uniform. I think we could all stop wearing the USAF uniforms (Seniors) and wear the TPU. However, there should be a change. Allow military ribbons to be worn on the TPU as they are on the USAF uniform. This will give the people that want to show off their military service (Me being oneof them after 20 years of service) an opportunity to do so. I do not believe there is a federal law that prohibits me from wearing my military ribbons anywhere that I want -- except the specific branch's regs.
Second -- do the cadets really care if we are wearing a blue shirt or a white shirt? I think they would be most impressed if we could all wear one uniform, like they are required to do!
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 27, 2007, 05:43:35 AM
Uniforms would be consolidated to 1 USAF style and 1 CAP Distinctive style. They would parallel each other. Cadets would be bound to USAF Style and Seniors could choose...
I couldn't agree more. I agree in the USAF or Corporate as the only two options.
im totally putting my medals on my charlie jacket.
Quote from: jason.pennington on July 29, 2007, 12:28:12 AM
Second -- do the cadets really care if we are wearing a blue shirt or a white shirt? I think they would be most impressed if we could all wear one uniform, like they are required to do!
If it wasn't the same uniform they would be wearing, then it's not uniformity. It would be cadets in one uniform, and seniors in another.
You guys may want to line Vanguards pockets, but I can get blues a lot cheaper from AAFES.
Quote from: jason.pennington on July 29, 2007, 12:28:12 AM
Second -- do the cadets really care if we are wearing a blue shirt or a white shirt? I think they would be most impressed if we could all wear one uniform, like they are required to do!
Cadets do care what uniform we (SM's) wear. Many have the attitude "you can't tell me how to wear a uniform
YOU don't wear." It gets interesting when the sqdn commander (in AF uniform) asks an SM (in corporates) if the commander's uniform is right - in front of the cadet staff.
Quote from: ColonelJack on July 28, 2007, 10:03:50 PM
Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on July 28, 2007, 09:05:37 PM
An aside to Colonel Jack: which pattern was that?
MacDonald of the Isles. I have three MacDonald tartans -- regular, Dress Blue, and "of the Isles." I also maintain a Royal Stewart, though my connection to that clan is tenuous at best. (Sharp looking kilt, though.)
Jack
That's why I wear USAF tartan - my connections to a Highland ancestor are a tricky bank shot.
Nowadays, the Irish county from which my family emigrated has it's own tartan so I could always use that. It's kinda dull, though: I have a tie in it but doubt I'd want a kilt of it.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on July 30, 2007, 04:43:59 AM
That's why I wear USAF tartan - my connections to a Highland ancestor are a tricky bank shot.
That USAF tartan
is sharp, isn't it? My next kilt purchases will be that tartan and the Glasgow District tartan (my dance partner's tartan -- I already have the tie). I will then have six kilts -- one more and I will be able to wear one every day. That's the goal, anyway.
Jack
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 27, 2007, 05:43:35 AMThe "occasions" are as followed: Mess Dress (for the most formal affairs), Formal Dress (for those occasions to where a "business suit" would be worn), Semi-Formal (basically, a shirt and tie combo), Minimum Basic SERVICE DRESS (short sleeve combo...with/without ribbons and a flight cap for daily meeting use/base staff), Field Dress (BDU, ACU) (the dress of the Ground teams) and the Flight Suit (the garb of aviators).
Yes, yes, and yes!
One Corp uniform for each USAF uniform... One uniform on either side for one prupose and one function! Brilliant, you get a Guinness! No golf shirt, polo shirt, guayabera shirt <yak!>, or jump suits? Splended!
Hey, and I'll bet all the same insignia fits on everything too, right? No special pieces for that one variation of the one style of uniform? Sweet.
Although, a standard PT uniform (shirt/short/pant/jacket) might be the one addition to your list - but EVERYONE gets to wear that one!
-Ace
I like the idea of slimming down the uniform choices (in addition to slimming down the wearers) a bit, but I would keep the golf shirt in one flavor for civillian functions. When I attend functions at the state EOC or FEMA classes etc, I prefer not to go in with epaulets, and nametags etc like little Lord Fauntleroy all dressed up and playing military. When working with people wearing polo shirts (which 98% of the folks in an EOC do) it is probably best to do as they do.
I can also see the use for a civillian-appearing "uniform" in other areas as well.
Quote from: alamrcn on July 30, 2007, 06:30:48 PM
Brilliant, you get a Guinness!
-Ace
ACE, this is SPARKY...
I'll pour one later this evening!
SPARKY OUT!
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 30, 2007, 06:52:55 PM
I like the idea of slimming down the uniform choices (in addition to slimming down the wearers) a bit, but I would keep the golf shirt in one flavor for civillian functions. When I attend functions at the state EOC or FEMA classes etc, I prefer not to go in with epaulets, and nametags etc like little Lord Fauntleroy all dressed up and playing military. When working with people wearing polo shirts (which 98% of the folks in an EOC do) it is probably best to do as they do.
I can also see the use for a civillian-appearing "uniform" in other areas as well.
My friend, I hate to disagree.
The SERVICE COAT or SERVICE DRESS serves that fuinction. As I see it, in keeping with the paradigm that we need a more limited uniform spectrum (1 USAF Style and 1 CAP Style), I submit that either one is a "CAP Officer" or not.
This is what would distinguish us from them. It is not too much to ask to wear minimum basic service uniform at an EOC. When working with people wearing polo shirts, rahter than "slack back" our standards to "do as they do," simply join their organization. Then you could "be more like them and less like us."
As you can tell, since coming up with this, I have become of the mindset that we need to look like a "CAP Officers" and "CAP Cadets" not anything else. If they have a problem with our dress, then they don't need our services.
I want to foster a a situation where people can look at one of us walking down the street and say, that is a CAP Officer. Based on current issues, the 1 USAF STYLE/1 CAP Style would best do that.
Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on July 28, 2007, 09:05:37 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on July 28, 2007, 03:40:22 PM
Quote from: ColonelJack on July 28, 2007, 04:51:46 AM
So, Sparky, would the non-AF "mess dress" (Tux uniform) be acceptable if I wore a Prince Charlie jacket with my kilt? Medals, etc., pin on that just nice. Take a look.
Jack
Nice, but I don't want to drop $300+ on a CAP tartan, 'cause you know the Rangers wouldn't rest until it had blaze orange stripes in it.
I have worn my mini's on Scottish formal wear and wore my full size medals last Memorial Day. I ended up directing traffic in my kilt and shirt after a Beltway accident.
Still haven't gotten my Silver Medal, though.
Orange has already been done quite a wihle before there was even a CAP; IIRC a number of 'ancient' tartans feature an orange shade as a 'faded red' or something to that effect. I defer, however, to those who possess a greater depth of knowledge on the subject than I. I'd try my own hand at a tartan design but I've yet to find a copy of the software to do it in a presentable manner given my meager skills.
An aside to Colonel Jack: which pattern was that?
Lies. CAP invented orange.
Addressing Major Carrales' post w/o quoting it -
While the reg is unclear, it appears to me that the golf shirt in a senior member only uniform, and therefore only worn by CAP officers. There would be very few members who are not at least 2nd Lt wearing that uniform in the given scenario. Also, the absence of rank can actually work to the advantage of the under 21 SMs, since their "different" FO insignia would be there to cause confusion and questions.
I think it has its place in our "seabag". I have given a couple of AE presentations in that uniform, and was well received. It has the seal to identify us as CAP members without being overly gaudy.
Quote from: SarDragon on July 31, 2007, 01:44:02 AM
Addressing Major Carrales' post w/o quoting it -
While the reg is unclear, it appears to me that the golf shirt in a senior member only uniform, and therefore only worn by CAP officers. There would be very few members who are not at least 2nd Lt wearing that uniform in the given scenario. Also, the absence of rank can actually work to the advantage of the under 21 SMs, since their "different" FO insignia would be there to cause confusion and questions.
I think it has its place in our "seabag". I have given a couple of AE presentations in that uniform, and was well received. It has the seal to identify us as CAP members without being overly gaudy.
Ehh, I'd disagree. The blues/corporate with epaulets, nametag, and wings isn't very gaudy at all. I'm not fond of the polo as a uniform option at all.
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 31, 2007, 01:47:05 AMEhh, I'd disagree. The blues/corporate with epaulets, nametag, and wings isn't very gaudy at all. I'm not fond of the polo as a uniform option at all.
I wouldn't quite dump the polo shirt uniform, if they'd standardize on a specific type/color/weave gray trouser it's not that bad.
I prefer Corporate Blue over Corporate Gray.
When trying to work with civillian professionals, dressing like a military officer (especially when everyone knows that you're not) only sharpens the divide; some of these folks are probably already convinced you're some kind of Whacker that couldn't cut it on the volunteer fire department. Dressing up like you are playing soldier does not always work when you're working with civillians. Another example I can think of is an EAA meeting; EAA is one of the most unmilitary organizations I can think of, yet when we are talking Aerospace-related issues (remember, that OTHER mission of ours?) it is to our advantage to not look out of place.
Sometimes, low-key is the way to go.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on July 31, 2007, 01:55:50 AM
Quote from: jaybird512 on July 31, 2007, 01:47:05 AMEhh, I'd disagree. The blues/corporate with epaulets, nametag, and wings isn't very gaudy at all. I'm not fond of the polo as a uniform option at all.
I wouldn't quite dump the polo shirt uniform, if they'd standardize on a specific type/color/weave gray trouser it's not that bad.
I prefer Corporate Blue over Corporate Gray.
I'd dump it for official business. I'm in the group who wants to standardize and limit ourselves to blues/corporates, flight suits, and BDUs/BBDUs and that's it.
I don't really consider it a uniform...although at our squadron, I've started listing it as the uniform of the day on PT night (when the cadets are in civvie shorts) and listing real uniforms the other nights.
To me, it's like a CAP equivalent to civilian business casual.
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 31, 2007, 02:02:40 AM
When trying to work with civillian professionals, dressing like a military officer only sharpens the divide, especially when they're probably already convinced you're some kind of Whacker that couldn't cut it on the volunteer fire department. Dressing up like you are playing soldier does not always work when you're working with civillians. Another example I can think of is an EAA meeting; EAA is one of the most unmilitary organizations I can think of, yet when we are talking Aerospace-related issues (remember, tha OTHER mission of ours?) it is to our advantage to not look out of place.
I don't agree at all. Walking before an audience in a groomed, tailored, and polished military uniform and presenting yourself as a professional with a purpose in life will do much more to influence an audience than walking in feeling like you're playing soldier after you jump off the brush truck in a polo shirt.
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 31, 2007, 02:02:40 AM
When trying to work with civillian professionals, dressing like a military officer (especially when everyone knows that you're not) only sharpens the divide; some of these folks are probably already convinced you're some kind of Whacker that couldn't cut it on the volunteer fire department. Dressing up like you are playing soldier does not always work when you're working with civillians. Another example I can think of is an EAA meeting; EAA is one of the most unmilitary organizations I can think of, yet when we are talking Aerospace-related issues (remember, that OTHER mission of ours?) it is to our advantage to not look out of place.
On the contary, we are the Civil Air Patrol have have earned, via the sacrifice of those that came before and our continued efforts, the right to wear that uniform. Again, if you want to join an outfit where the outfit is a "golf shirt," I think there lies your destiny. However, if you want to be part of a "unique form or service," then get minimum service dress or a field uniform and do the job that continues to warrant that uniform.
Whackers?! How dare you even make the link...the Civil Air Patrol is a real service, not people going around with no authority nor stated purpose. I'll give credence to your "Volunteer Fire Dept" quote when such organizations operate the world's largest fleet of civilian aircraft. Your comments are insultingto both organizations. Case in point... Volunteer Fire Departments wear uniforms like REGULARS, are they WHACKERS? When they dawn the helmet, hooks and ladders of the trade, are they any less fire fighters because they don't get paid? I think not.
Simply put, the Volunteer Fire Department isn't "playing FIREMAN" anymore than we are "Playing AIR FORCE."
Most people are just glad we are there to help. The uniform says to them that we are CAP, not employees of local discount stores or members of the LPGA.
QuoteSometimes, low-key is the way to go.
Could that be why people don't know who we are?
Fact is, we need to develop a CAP culture that makes us idenfiable as CAP, minimum basic service dress and a field/flight uniform is not too much to ask. It's a buttoned short sleevedshirt and trousers.
Not unlike these professional uniforms...
(http://www.flightsuits.com/images/uniform/unif_collage.jpg)
Quote from: Major Carrales on July 31, 2007, 02:53:53 AM
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 31, 2007, 02:02:40 AM
When trying to work with civillian professionals, dressing like a military officer (especially when everyone knows that you're not) only sharpens the divide; some of these folks are probably already convinced you're some kind of Whacker that couldn't cut it on the volunteer fire department. Dressing up like you are playing soldier does not always work when you're working with civillians. Another example I can think of is an EAA meeting; EAA is one of the most unmilitary organizations I can think of, yet when we are talking Aerospace-related issues (remember, that OTHER mission of ours?) it is to our advantage to not look out of place.
On the contary, we are the Civil Air Patrol have have earned, via the sacrifice of those that came before and our continued efforts, the right to wear that uniform. Again, if you want to join an outfit where the outfit is a "golf shirt," I think there lies your destiny. However, if you want to be part of a "unique form or service," then get minimum service dress or a field uniform and do the job that continues to warrant that uniform.
Whackers?! How dare you even make the link...the Civil Air Patrol is a real service, not people going around with no authority nor stated purpose. I'll give credence to your "Volunteer Fire Dept" quote when such organizations operate the world's largest fleet of civilian aircraft. Your comments are insultingto both organizations. Case in point... Volunteer Fire Departments wear uniforms like REGULARS, are they WHACKERS? When they dawn the helmet, hooks and ladders of the trade, are they any less fire fighters because they don't get paid? I think not.
Simply put, the Volunteer Fire Department isn't "playing FIREMAN" anymore than we are "Playing AIR FORCE."
Most people are just glad we are there to help. The uniform says to them that we are CAP, not employees of local discount stores or members of the LPGA.
QuoteSometimes, low-key is the way to go.
Could that be why people don't know who we are?
Fact is, we need to develop a CAP culture that makes us idenfiable as CAP, minimum basic service dress and a field/flight uniform is not too much to ask. It's a buttoned short sleevedshirt and trousers.
Not unlike these professional uniforms...
(http://www.flightsuits.com/images/uniform/unif_collage.jpg)
I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm proud to wear my uniform and at no time have I ever felt like a "wannabe". Maybe if a few people started holding their heads up a little higher we might be a more known agency and gain that much more in professionalism.
I don't see epaulets or military rank on those "uniforms" either. Face it, sometimes the best uniform is a non-military uniform, especially when others are not wearing uniforms...and we still have the seal to tell folks who we are, and as long as we're all wearing hte same variant (instead one of 16 different flavors), it is still uniform. There is nothing wrong with fitting in when it is called for...and you can still wear your dress uniform to the after-season banquet.
Part of the problem is the airs we put on. Sure, I'm proud to be in CAP and if you read back I have been among the people who have been slamming on the non-uniforms for normal CAP wear. I just know that acting like we're God's gift to emergency management is not the way to influence friends and influence people. At times, we haven't even been allowed in the EOC but I hope that changes sooner or later. The only way we're going to make those changes is through quiet professionalism and blending in / working with the EOC staff, not doing our best to show them how many ribbons we have. Trust me, if they don't know you're in CAP, it's because they can't read the big 3" circle on your chest.
How hard is it to understand that anything past a polo shirt is way overdressed for the average EOC at an advanced stage of alert? Besides, white or light blue shirts don't hold up well to 16 hour duty days.
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 31, 2007, 03:32:43 AM
I don't see epaulets or military rank on those "uniforms" either. Face it, sometimes the best uniform is a non-military uniform, especially when others are not wearing uniforms...and we still have the seal to tell folks who we are, and as long as we're all wearing hte same variant (instead one of 16 different flavors), it is still uniform. There is nothing wrong with fitting in when it is called for...and you can still wear your dress uniform to the after-season banquet.
Part of the problem is the airs we put on. Sure, I'm proud to be in CAP and if you read back I have been among the people who have been slamming on the non-uniforms for normal CAP wear. I just know that acting like we're God's gift to emergency management is not the way to influence friends and influence people. At times, we haven't even been allowed in the EOC but I hope that changes sooner or later. The only way we're going to make those changes is through quiet professionalism and blending in / working with the EOC staff, not doing our best to show them how many ribbons we have. Trust me, if they don't know you're in CAP, it's because they can't read the big 3" circle on your chest.
How hard is it to understand that anything past a polo shirt is way overdressed for the average EOC at an advanced stage of alert? Besides, white or light blue shirts don't hold up well to 16 hour duty days.
Because many people wear much more than a polo shirt in EOCs for longer than 16 hours. Try wearing a vest and duty gear, or a white EMS shirt in an EOC. A blue AF shirt is much more comfortable in comparison.
No one is doubting your commitment to the team, we just want a little more professionalism out of it. When we start holding ourselves to a higher standard, including dress, then people will take notice of that. We're not god's gift to emergency management, we're just professionals with a job that we take pride in and that is demonstrated more indirectly than coming out and saying it.
Professionalism also means knowing what to wear and when to wear it. It doesn't look good to CAP for our folks to show up wearing a starched white shirt (at least mine usually is) when everyone else is wearing polos and department Ts.
If you want to see how folks dress inside the EOC when it's activated, check out the first picture at http://www.tallahasseecap.org/pdfs/charley-aar.pdf . Note the t-shirts and polos. Incidentally, we were wearing BDUs for that one as we were getting ready to go out into the field, but our IMT folks were all in either CAP polos or FL SERT (State Emergncy Response Team) polos...and they looked like they were part of the professional Emergency Management team. Anyone in a dress uniform would have looked pretty much out of place and would have probably caused folks to wonder if they were insecure about something.
The Stennis EOC was even less formal as many of the folks there had already lost all their clothes....shorts and polos IDing your agency were the UOD.
For that matter, I remember talking to another RECON team leader out in Navarre the morning after Dennis and thinking how much more comfortable he looked in his Grey pants and blue polo while I sweated and chafed my butt off in my BDUs (which can get a little uncomfortable after 16 hrs of riding around in them - it's not like we were hacking our way through the woods)....and made a mental note to pack my grey Dickies or a pair of grey BDU pants and blue polo next time we did something like that. Sure some folks wear more than that, but they are usually in ops, not overhead...wearing all our web gear to a planning meeting would look pretty stupid.
I guess teamwork is at least part of what it comes down to...Emergency Management is very much a team effort and trying to dress differently from everyone else makes it look like you somehow don't consider yourself part of that team. Once you're inside that EOC as part of the IMT overhead, you are first and foremost a SERT member, not a CAP member...and that goes for every other agency representative that is there. We need to learn to be part of something that is much bigger than us and stop worrying about broadcasting who we are. Trust me, the people who matter know who we are, and we look much better by quietly doing the best job we can (in a proper and approved uniform of course - which in this case might well be the polo) in a competent and professional manner than by showing up in a starched white uniform shirt - which won't stay starched long in this heat.
On the other hand, if we were playing with National Guard or another "uniformed Service" like Police, EMS etc, then a military uniform or corporate equivalent would be most appropriate. You just have to know when to wear what....and no, I do not consider the polo appropriate for working with cadets.
You might note that the military has their polo shirt uniform that they wear when it's appropriate....look at all the recruiters running around in dark blue polos and white pants (which happen to all be the exact same pants by the way, something we should learn from); are they considered professional? You can also do a search for "air force" "polo shirt" uniform and see that this is not such a CAP-only idea. Even the RealMilitary@ recognizes that a military-styled uniform is not always the best choice, yet here we are trying to out-military the military again.
With that in mind, I see nothing inconsistent with the polo shirt and the earlier suggestion of us having one CAP uniform for each Air Force uniform...ours is just worn with grey pants (which should be standardized) not white; we just need to get the message across about when to wear the appropriate uniform, which 90% of the time is NOT the polo.
I recently met with the officers of a large, metropolitan fire department about the role of CERT and the MRC in Emergency Services as my area is gearing up for another month of heat. I walked into the room wearing a CERT polo and chinos only to be met by a group of fire department officers in their service dress...creased navy blue trousers, patent leather shoes and white shirts, complete with brass and commendation ribbons. Think of it this way: we may meet with people whose corporate "uniform" is dockers and polo-shirts, our corporate uniform is the service dress. If we want people to take us seriously, we also want them to take us seriously for what we are: The Unites States Air Force Auxiliary and that should be reflected in how we dress. Besides, the style of polo shirt available to us is about 10 years out of date. They're tacky. I bought one and sent it back.
If the National Guard puts a rep in the EOC, does he wear a golf shirt?
BDUs. I have yet to see one in Class Bs. Doesn't really matter because they usually have a vest on anyway identifying their position, which is decidedly much higher than CAP's on the totem pole.
Most state offices use business casual as the "uniform of the day"...polos, slacks. Some wear button-up shirts and ties in which case it is called "business dress" or some such nonsense like that. The EOC is decidedly much more relaxed with jeans and polos most of the time. Any officer in a dress uniform is going to stick out like a sore thumb and cause questions like "Who's the guy in the Russian Navy uniform?". Dress uniforms give the impression of not being there to work, but to supervise and there's not much room for that kind of attitude, plus being overdressed can be just as bad as being underdressed when it comes to looking professional.
If the National Guard ran the EOC, I would want everyone in BDUs as well..to show unity and teamwork. If they had an event and requested class Bs, I would expect CAP to show up in SS blue/white shirt. It is all depending on what the prevailing uniform is and anyone here should know that I am about as anti-polo as they come when it comes to using it as a day-to-day uniform. I just think that they do have a time and place to be worn, it's just not at the squadron meeting or most CAP-ran activities.
When I did my ICS TTT, I wore the polo every day except the last one when I wore corporate and felt very much at ease the entire time except for the last day when I looked like I was trying to show off amidst all the polos (the designated dress code at Emmitsburg).
So if the National Guard puts their EOC rep in BDUs, why the heck would we be in golf shirts.
Also, consider this - USAF or the ANG doesn't have an official golf shirt uniform, and they've done just fine for 50 years. :-)
There are times in my Army day job that I've attended functions where a uniform would be inappropriate, and I've worn civilian attire. No need for an official U.S. Army golf shirt or blazer crest. I think CAP could do the same. For those rare occasions when uniforms would be out of place, just get the Wing CC to authorize civilian attire.
99% of the golf shirters aren't in EOCs. They're wearing them to CAP-only events, right alongside service dress or flight suit wearing members.
I like the golf shirt. It's comfy. But it's not neccesary. And it's an oddball "uniform" with no USAF equivalent that doesn't even display rank.
Sure they do, they just don't call it the golf shirt. What do you think recruiters wear with their white pants?
As for wearing civvies to the EOC, isn't that a little far to the other side? You act like you don't want folks to know who we work for.
PS It's not just literally "in the EOC", it's when taking classes with civillians etc. The more you can try to fit in with them, the better you'll be received, and like it or not, these are the people we want to play ball with because they have potential missions for us and money to spend.
Frankly, I don't really care what anyone outside of CAP is wearing. I will wear the uniform that gives me the most flexibility in responding to potential tasks that I might get involved in. That is why I usually wear the BDU since it is appropriate for just about everything I personally might do during a mission. If that results in me being the only one in a military uniform in a room full of those in regular civilians clothes, so be it.
Quote from: Dragoon on July 31, 2007, 03:20:21 PM
Also, consider this - USAF or the ANG doesn't have an official golf shirt uniform, and they've done just fine for 50 years. :-)
Come to think of it, in the last couple of years, both the Army and the Air Force have approved a casual uniform for recruiters and their assistants, consisting of a polo type shirt, and khakis.
I don't care for our extreme diversity of uniforms, but there is precedent for those casual types now.
And I think it should be noted that my acceptance of the more casual uniforms is very circumstantial and limited primarily to those times that we may wish to work more closely with civillians without intimidating them...I still do not think they should replace military uniforms and their corporate equivalents in day-to-day use, especially in CP.
My wife was just made DCC and the first thing we did was go out and get her a set of BDUs although she has almost zero interest in ES....it just made sense to have something more than an aviator shirt or golf shirt to choose from for cadet activities.
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 31, 2007, 06:06:16 PM
And I think it should be noted that my acceptance of the more casual uniforms is very circumstantial and limited primarily to those times that we may wish to work more closely with civillians without intimidating them...I still do not think they should replace military uniforms and their corporate equivalents in day-to-day use, especially in CP.
Agreed. Wholeheartedly. But we don't need the extreme number of uniforms that we have.
Quote
My wife was just made DCC and the first thing we did was go out and get her a set of BDUs although she has almost zero interest in ES....it just made sense to have something more than an aviator shirt or gold shirt to choose from for cadet activities.
Sounds practical. One question: "Gold" shirt?
Read the edited text :)
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 31, 2007, 03:32:04 PM
Sure they do, they just don't call it the golf shirt. What do you think recruiters wear with their white pants?
As for wearing civvies to the EOC, isn't that a little far to the other side? You act like you don't want folks to know who we work for.
PS It's not just literally "in the EOC", it's when taking classes with civillians etc. The more you can try to fit in with them, the better you'll be received, and like it or not, these are the people we want to play ball with because they have potential missions for us and money to spend.
You miss my point a bit. There is no USAF golf shirt. Some local units come up with special "civvies" for specific guys (like recruiters) to wear to specific events. But there is NO USAF sanctioned golf shirt that any member can buy at clothing sales and wear.
As for classes, you can wear civvies. No need for a special golf shirt. If there was such a need, USAF would have identified it years ago.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 31, 2007, 05:26:46 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on July 31, 2007, 03:20:21 PM
Also, consider this - USAF or the ANG doesn't have an official golf shirt uniform, and they've done just fine for 50 years. :-)
Come to think of it, in the last couple of years, both the Army and the Air Force have approved a casual uniform for recruiters and their assistants, consisting of a polo type shirt, and khakis.
I don't care for our extreme diversity of uniforms, but there is precedent for those casual types now.
Not exactly. I haven't seen the Army "casual uniform" in AR 670-1 or any G1 guidance, so it's not an Army thing. At best the recruiting command authorized a specific set of "civvies" for a very specific purpose.
In the same way, Florida Wing, if they truly saw the need, could authorize their EOC guy to wear any piece of civilian CAP gear from Vanguard to the EOC.
The day a soldier or airman can walk into clothing sales, pick up a golf shirt and wear it to work because he feels like it is the day we need such a uniform. Until then, just order folks into CAP labled civvies for very specific purposes. The rest of us can stay in service dress, flight gear or BDUs. Or the corporate equivalent.
Quote from: Dragoon on July 31, 2007, 06:28:29 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 31, 2007, 05:26:46 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on July 31, 2007, 03:20:21 PM
Also, consider this - USAF or the ANG doesn't have an official golf shirt uniform, and they've done just fine for 50 years. :-)
Come to think of it, in the last couple of years, both the Army and the Air Force have approved a casual uniform for recruiters and their assistants, consisting of a polo type shirt, and khakis.
I don't care for our extreme diversity of uniforms, but there is precedent for those casual types now.
Not exactly. I haven't seen the Army "casual uniform" in AR 670-1 or any G1 guidance, so it's not an Army thing. At best the recruiting command authorized a specific set of "civvies" for a very specific purpose.
In the same way, Florida Wing, if they truly saw the need, could authorize their EOC guy to wear any piece of civilian CAP gear from Vanguard to the EOC.
The day a soldier or airman can walk into clothing sales, pick up a golf shirt and wear it to work because he feels like it is the day we need such a uniform. Until then, just order folks into CAP labled civvies for very specific purposes. The rest of us can stay in service dress, flight gear or BDUs. Or the corporate equivalent.
Look up messages. Not everything is in 670-1, 36-22903, or 39-1. You are well aware of that. And my post indicated that it was for recruiters and assistants. I didn't say it was for everyone.
It's funny how we are more on the same page than we care to admit.
I would not want to wear civvies to an EOC event or class....the unofficial uniform there is an organizational polo shirt, and besides, contrary to a statement that was made in here earler, I am very proud of my CAP affiliation. I just don't think it's any more appropriate to wear dress uniform into the EOC than it would be to wear any other button-up shirt. Not saying that nobody there ever does, but they too stick out (and are usually part of the Governor's entourage)
Bottom line is that by specifying which polo shirt to wear (and yes, I think we should ditch the plethora of styles and maybe go with one shirt with a nice-looking emblem), they avoid the trap of CAP members showing up in their "I DRANK 15 PINTS OF GUINESS AND SURVIVED" shirt they won at the bowling alley.
Now if they can just specify the exact conditions it should be worn under, I could die happy LOL
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 31, 2007, 07:38:01 PM
It's funny how we are more on the same page than we care to admit.
I would not want to wear civvies to an EOC event or class....the unofficial uniform there is an organizational polo shirt, and besides, contrary to a statement that was made in here earler, I am very proud of my CAP affiliation. I just don't think it's any more appropriate to wear dress uniform into the EOC than it would be to wear any other button-up shirt. Not saying that nobody there ever does, but they too stick out (and are usually part of the Governor's entourage)
Bottom line is that by specifying which polo shirt to wear (and yes, I think we should ditch the plethora of styles and maybe go with one shirt with a nice-looking emblem), they avoid the trap of CAP members showing up in their "I DRANK 15 PINTS OF GUINESS AND SURVIVED" shirt they won at the bowling alley.
Now if they can just specify the exact conditions it should be worn under, I could die happy LOL
Yeah, a number of us seem to be. I think there might actually be a place for the polo, but I don't think we need three variations of one. And it wouldn't hurt to allow wear with khaki pants, that's the typical manner from what I've seen of the various organizations that do it.
The only thing the polo/golf shirt is good for is washing your car. You see other agencies wearing polo shirts and chinos because that is their "corporate uniform." We also have a corporate uniform: its blue/blue or blue/white. Save the polos for when you go to non-uniformed squadron functions, like barbecues or summer parties. Even the Toys for Tots Marines here in my home town wear their dress blues or sometimes BDUs depending on the nature of the environment they are in.
Quote from: SARMedTech on August 01, 2007, 05:40:54 AM
The only thing the polo/golf shirt is good for is washing your car. You see other agencies wearing polo shirts and chinos because that is their "corporate uniform." We also have a corporate uniform: its blue/blue or blue/white. Save the polos for when you go to non-uniformed squadron functions, like barbecues or summer parties. Even the Toys for Tots Marines here in my home town wear their dress blues or sometimes BDUs depending on the nature of the environment they are in.
Apples and oranges.
Quote from: SARMedTech on August 01, 2007, 05:40:54 AM
The only thing the polo/golf shirt is good for is washing your car. You see other agencies wearing polo shirts and chinos because that is their "corporate uniform." We also have a corporate uniform: its blue/blue or blue/white. Save the polos for when you go to non-uniformed squadron functions, like barbecues or summer parties. Even the Toys for Tots Marines here in my home town wear their dress blues or sometimes BDUs depending on the nature of the environment they are in.
No, the corporate uniform at a state office is a button-up shirt and tie. The polo is considered "business casual" which is usually the UOD in an operational office.
If we were running the show (like the Marines do with T4T) we too could specify the uniform. It's not a question of what we would like to wear, but what the folks running the show wear. Like I said earlier, if we were working with a uniformed organization, I would expect to see everyone in a real CAP uniform. Working with civillians is kind of the same thing...we pretty much wear what they have deemed appropriate to wear.
Incidentally, for squadron carwashes, we wear a squadron t-shirt and shorts or BDU bottoms. I guess you're going to say we should be in mess dress for that.
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 01, 2007, 12:26:09 PM
Incidentally, for squadron carwashes, we wear a squadron t-shirt and shorts or BDU bottoms. I guess you're going to say we should be in mess dress for that.
Only if it's a "formal" carwash. :D
Don't laugh. I have seen an officer show up at a carwash in whites/greys. I will admit that I was surprised when he pretty much carried his share of the load. I don't think he actually expected to have to work beyond taking money or talking about CAP, but we were short on cadets.
At our last plane wash, I was still in polo and slacks as my wife and I had gone out the night before after work and hadn't made it home yet; I love it when the kids are gone - thank you CAP Summer Encampment and Hawk Mountain >:D Before it was over, I ended up flat on my back in the mud scrubbing oil film off the belly of a taildragger Maule. I figured the clothes were washable and our attention to detail netted a $60 donation.
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 01, 2007, 12:26:09 PM
If we were running the show (like the Marines do with T4T) we too could specify the uniform. It's not a question of what we would like to wear, but what the folks running the show wear. Like I said earlier, if we were working with a uniformed organization, I would expect to see everyone in a real CAP uniform. Working with civillians is kind of the same thing...we pretty much wear what they have deemed appropriate to wear.
I would bet that no EOC has ever told CAP to come in a polo shirt uniform. Just because everyone else is wearing them doesn't mean CAP has, or should, also. Now, if for some reason they ask us not to wear a military-style uniform that can be taken into consideration.
Lacking specific requirements from the "customer" it is really up to CAP as to the appopriate uniform. Maybe sometimes it could be the polo uniform, but it sure wouldn't be my preference.
Nobody ever said they asked anything, so no sense arguing about that. Just a matter of being smart enough to be able to figure out what the Romans are doing without being told.
And if the other folks in the EOC decided to jump off a cliff....
If wearing a CAP golf shirt will get our folks regarded seriously in the state/county Docs, then that's what we should wear....we are there to make a contribution and help get a job done....whatever advances that (within reason) is worth trying.
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 03, 2007, 03:43:47 AM
Nobody ever said they asked anything, so no sense arguing about that. Just a matter of being smart enough to be able to figure out what the Romans are doing without being told.
The ROMAN EMPIRE COLLAPSED...shall we take your analogy to its logical conclusions?
Simply put, we should look like CAP and asking Mission Base personnel to wear a button shirt instead of a golf shirt is not asking much.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 03, 2007, 04:06:57 AM
If wearing a CAP golf shirt will get our folks regarded seriously in the state/county Docs, then that's what we should wear....we are there to make a contribution and help get a job done....whatever advances that (within reason) is worth trying.
A specious argument...and moot as well. If we show up and do a good job, no one is going to say... "look at that shirt." But if they do see us and gauge our appearance, I want them to say..."look, there goes a CAP officer."
I still think we need to look like CAP Officers and CADETS and not members. There is nothing "low key" or "STAND OUTISH" about wearing the CAP uniform. It is the uniform of the organization. For the RED CROSS it's those vests, for police and fire it is their uniform and from the FEMA types its a golf shirt.
I say, if its the CAP it should be minimum basic service dress short sleeve with epaulets and nametag for the MISSION BASE, BDUs for the GROUND TEAMs and Flight suits for the aviators.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2007, 05:28:30 AM
I still think we need to look like CAP Officers and CADETS and not members. There is nothing "low key" or "STAND OUTISH" about wearing the CAP uniform. It is the uniform of the organization. For the RED CROSS it's those vests, for police and fire it is their uniform and from the FEMA types its a golf shirt.
Red Cross wears polos in the EOC as well, as do most LE/EMS etc. Folks high enough up the chain to be there have no need for uniforms.
QuoteAnd if the other folks in the EOC decided to jump off a cliff....
Not worth replying to.....they say there's no such thing as a dumb question....they're wrong
QuoteI say, if its the CAP it should be minimum basic service dress short sleeve with epaulets and nametag for the MISSION BASE, BDUs for the GROUND TEAMs and Flight suits for the aviators.
And I agree...at a CAP mission base IF you are your basic REMF. Other considerations may apply at someone else's ICP or facility. Actually, the only position I've heard service dress recommended for at a mission base is IO, otherwise, I think that wearing service dress would drive too many wedges between the command/general staff and the troops...BDUs for everyone except IO and aircrew.
QuoteThe ROMAN EMPIRE COLLAPSED...shall we take your analogy to its logical conclusions?
I'd call that jumping to extremes (or whatever the term is in debate circles) since I know you're not dumb enough to believe that the saying of "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" is literally referring to the Roman Empire.
I do agree...that there is nothing wrong with wearing the CAP uniform; the polo shirt is a CAP uniform, so I say wear it IN APPROPRIATE CIRCUMSTANCES like when working under a civillian chain of command (whichever title number that is). You're right...they're not there to look at the shirt...but by being the only person in the room wearing epaulets and such, you are guaranteeing that they will pay attention to your shirt; and knowing that you are "just a volunteer" (I hate that phrase, but that is still how we are often seen, and not just by others) they will wonder A) Whose navy do you think you belong to? and B) What kind of team player tries to outdress everyone else?
I'm tired of this senseless argument. Those of you who do not work closely with civillians will never understand why we're seen as prima donnas and whackers by many of them because to you it is all about dressing up in your dress uniform with your epaulets, grade insignia and other Little Lord Fauntleroy trappings so that Everybody can see who you are. To us as a group, these things mean something, and I for one am rather proud of my ribbons, grade, and qualification badges that I have earned through my own hard work and motivation. Yet, to the average civillian, it is just a costume and many of them can never understand why we would have to wear something like that when we are civillians too.
The funny thing is that normally I am a staunch opponent of the polo shirt for normal day-to-day use; I think it makes folks look like they are too lazy to put on a proper uniform. Even so, I am not so rigid and inflexible as to believe that it is never appropriate to wear, which is precisely why several RealMilitary@ units have their own variants. Just like wearing a RealUniform@ sends a message to the RealMilitary@ that we are part of the same team and avoids having us stand out (if you don't think that's important, check out the photos of our chaplains who work with the Guard), dressing in a similar fashion to others in a civillian office sends the same message to the civillian emergency managers; like it or not, they are the ones who call the shots in a disaster and at other times control the purse strings along with who gets invited to play in the sandbox. Without that invitation, we are as useful in a disaster as mammary glands on a boar hog. Obviously the shirt is not the only factor in getting such an invitation, but how you dress and are perceived is still a part of the puzzle just like a ten of hearts is a part of an ace-high flush.
Just like wearing civillian-style clothes can help a recruiter break down the barriers between him and the civillians that he hopes to entice into joining and affect his overall effectiveness, so can the proper choice of clothing when working in a civillian-controlled office setting. Wearing a formal uniform can often put a barrier between those who wear it and those who don't and that is not the goal of someone assigned as a liaison; as you get older and move higher up the ops chain, you will see what I mean.
Is it always appropriate to wear a polo when working with civillians? Probably not....but that is the difference between us; I am saying sometime, and you are saying never, which totally blows flexibility out the equation, and that in itself is a big no-no in almost any context.
Once upon a time, CAP's unofficial motto (and the motto that we have learned to run disaster response under) was "Semper Gumby"...I think that has been replaced by "Semper Rigor".
Put a fork in me in this thread, I'm done.
Iowa has an EOC staffed and maintained by the Office of Emergency Management, and a National guard "EOC" staffed, and managing Guard resources. CAP is often the only agency traversing back and forth between the two offices.
In the early days of our relationship I often wore a polo with appropriate slacks to the State EOC, while my counterpart wore BDU's or Zomm (depending on the EOC staff) bags to the National Guard side.
We fit in seamlessly into the different cultures. (a plus to our schizophrenic nature).
Now that we have built and established our presence BDU, or BBDU is the standard uniform for staff.
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 03, 2007, 12:57:45 PM
I do agree...that there is nothing wrong with wearing the CAP uniform; the polo shirt is a CAP uniform, so I say wear it IN APPROPRIATE CIRCUMSTANCES like when working under a civillian chain of command (whichever title number that is). You're right...they're not there to look at the shirt...but by being the only person in the room wearing epaulets and such, you are guaranteeing that they will pay attention to your shirt; and knowing that you are "just a volunteer" (I hate that phrase, but that is still how we are often seen, and not just by others) they will wonder A) Whose navy do you think you belong to? and B) What kind of team player tries to outdress everyone else?
Another factor to consider: if the CAP folks are the only ones at the mission base in a military style uniform, a lot of people, outsiders mainly, will automatically assume they are in charge, and that may not be the case. It's kind of like an office environment where only one person wears a jacket and tie; outsiders will assume he's the boss. Now that's not so bad if the individual is actually in charge, or is someone like the IO, but anyone else could be spending more time redirecting outsiders than doing the job he is assigned. Just a thought.
CAP is (or was last time I checked) a paramilitary orgranization. Now if we are truly participating at EOC, there are going to be members of various fire departments there, likely officers, wearing LTs/Captains bars, police representatives wearing sergeants stripes and various collar brass...etc. Do you honestly believe that someone showing up wearing camo is automatically going to be assumed to be in charge? Its not like we are wearing mirrored sun-glasses and wind breakers that say "Federal Marshall" or something like that. I dont know about you, but at an incident scene,disaster command center, etc I assume the guy in charge is the one wearing the IC vest. Kinda thought thats what those things were for. We recently had an "incident" at one of the federal housing complexes where I work with a private security contractor. The incident was big enough to bring out police, SWAT, fire, etc. We showed up in suburbans wearing blue BDUs and our standard "marine corps" 8 point covers (which we wear to be distinguished from Police SWAT) and no one, not a single soul was confused about who we were, why were were there, etc. When I show up on an incident, unless the person I see in BDUs is wearing 4 stars, he is actually the LAST person I think might be in charge
I wasn't thinking camo's or any other utility uniform. To me those say "work uniform." I was thinking more along the lines of everyone wearing polo type shirts at the base except for one or two folks wearing military style dress shirts with rank insignia. Forgetting all your institutional knowledge and pretending to be an outsider (press, family members, etc.), what would be your initial impression about who's in charge?
Now granted, hopefully there are staff there who are on the ball and intercept any outsiders so this doesn't become an issue.
I'm on the side of the argument that while it is probably used too often, there is a place for the golf shirt uniform.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2007, 05:28:30 AM
A specious argument...and moot as well. If we show up and do a good job, no one is going to say... "look at that shirt."
I say, if its the CAP it should be minimum basic service
dress short sleeve with epaulets and nametag for the MISSION BASE, BDUs for the GROUND TEAMs and Flight suits for the aviators.
I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.
Having said that, a properly worn, professional looking flight suit or set of BDUs with minimal insignia (i.e., what's required, and aero or other ES rating badge) is surely the right approach if we use that style uniform in EOC duty.
Quoteif the CAP folks are the only ones at the mission base in a military style uniform, a lot of people, outsiders mainly, will automatically assume they are in charge,
Not a problem --- everyone should be wearing badges or vests identifying their jobs.
----
If the people at the local EOC have somehow gotten a negative impression about CAP it almost certainly has nothing to do with the uniforms and is about 95% due to the CAP persons involved. The wrong person will give the wrong impression no matter what they're wearing. Send the right person to the EOC and they won't give a flip what that CAP person is wearing.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 03, 2007, 05:58:00 PM
I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.
Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military." Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2007, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 03, 2007, 05:58:00 PM
I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.
Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military." Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.
I personally resent that. I myself am liberal and am opposed to the war and I'm I don't believe that all military is evil. It's only a small percentage of the Liberal Left that feels that way and they just make their voices louder because they are so few.
To prove that I am no agendist and am capable of being objective...
I will make this amendment to my proposal...
TWO STYLES...
USAF STYLE
Formal Wear: MESS DRESS
Business Wear: SERVICE COAT COMBO
Semi Business Wear: Long Sleeve Minimum Service Dress with tie and ribbons
Meeting Wear: Minimum Basic Service Dress (short sleeve shirt with or without ribbons)
FIELD WEAR: BDUs (for Ground Team), Flight Suit (for Air Crews)
For Civilian Liaison: (NONE)
CAP STYLE
Formal Wear: Regular Black TUX with Mini-medals on the chest and Mess Dress tie and cummerbund
Business Wear: CAP SERVICE COAT COMBO
Semi Business Wear: Long Sleeve CAP Distinctive (While Shirt, Blue pants et al) with tie and ribbons
Meeting Wear: Minimum Basic Service Dress (short sleeve white shirt with or without ribbons)
FIELD WEAR: BBDUs (for Ground Team), CAP Blue Flight Suit (for Air Crews)
For Civilian Liaison: White or Light Blue Golf Shirt with Blue CAP/USAF style pants.
The "Civilian Liaison" uniform should be made to match the options of minimum service dress, this a white one (CAP STYLE) and a light blue one (same color as USAF Shirt) There, that is one heck of a compromise.
The idea is that we have one set of trousers (USAF style blue) that is worn with a combination of shirts per occasion. In theory, one would only need one pair of BLUE USAF style pants and one field uniform set of bottoms. No greys.
This woudl present a solid unified uniform that could be layered. Thus, a new CAP Officer buys the Golf Shirt and USAF PANTS/BELT...then can purchase a USAF style shirt (if able to wear it) or a CAP style shirt (if desires to wear it) As time went on they coudl by the blue tie, Service coat et al.
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 03, 2007, 08:28:08 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2007, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 03, 2007, 05:58:00 PM
I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.
Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military." Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.
I personally resent that. I myself am liberal and am opposed to the war and I'm I don't believe that all military is evil. It's only a small percentage of the Liberal Left that feels that way and they just make their voices louder because they are so few.
Well, then I suggest that you encourge your brethren to "tone it down" or that you insure that "your" position is the dominant one. It may be a small precentage, but the silent majority needs to speak up.
I cannot see any other reason, even after logical analysis, why people at an EOC would be "offended" by the use of CAP distinctive or USAF style clothing. The only thing that makes since is that they harbor some "anti-military" thought.
Fact is, I am tired of people trying to down play the obvious military roots of CAP. I would like to see a CAP where we embrace that element instead of being "ashamed" of it. A CAP where we present one image...the one based on the two uniform approach (1 USAF STYLE, 1 CAP STYLE). It simplifies the "math" of uniforms issues.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2007, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: NERMA002 Safety on August 03, 2007, 08:28:08 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2007, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 03, 2007, 05:58:00 PM
I have to disagree; I think it is a real concern if the agencies we work with find the CAP military style uniforms (including corporate w. grade and so forth) outlandish...we want them to take us seriously, and of course ultimately that comes from the job we do....but we've got a lot of negative baggage to overcome from YEARS of CAP personnel throwing their weight around when they had neither cause or probably even authority to do so.
Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military." Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.
I personally resent that. I myself am liberal and am opposed to the war and I'm I don't believe that all military is evil. It's only a small percentage of the Liberal Left that feels that way and they just make their voices louder because they are so few.
Well, then I suggest that you encourge your brethren to "tone it down" or that you insure that "your" position is the dominant one.
Ah, trying to change the process of others in the same general grouping as myself, does that mean that I am my brother's keeper?
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2007, 08:29:08 PM
To prove that I am no agendist and am capable of being objective...
I will make this amendment to my proposal...
TWO STYLES...
USAF STYLE
Formal Wear: MESS DRESS
Business Wear: SERVICE COAT COMBO
Semi Business Wear: Long Sleeve Minimum Service Dress with tie and ribbons
Meeting Wear: Minimum Basic Service Dress (short sleeve shirt with or without ribbons)
FIELD WEAR: BDUs (for Ground Team), Flight Suit (for Air Crews)
For Civilian Liaison: (NONE)
CAP STYLE
Formal Wear: Regular Black TUX with Mini-medals on the chest and Mess Dress tie and cummerbund
Business Wear: CAP SERVICE COAT COMBO
Semi Business Wear: Long Sleeve CAP Distinctive (While Shirt, Blue pants et al) with tie and ribbons
Meeting Wear: Minimum Basic Service Dress (short sleeve white shirt with or without ribbons)
FIELD WEAR: BBDUs (for Ground Team), CAP Blue Flight Suit (for Air Crews)
For Civilian Liaison: White or Light Blue Golf Shirt with Blue CAP/USAF style pants.
The "Civilian Liaison" uniform should be made to match the options of minimum service dress, this a white one (CAP STYLE) and a light blue one (same color as USAF Shirt) There, that is one heck of a compromise.
The idea is that we have one set of trousers (USAF style blue) that is worn with a combination of shirts per occasion. In theory, one would only need one pair of BLUE USAF style pants and one field uniform set of bottoms. No greys.
This woudl present a solid unified uniform that could be layered. Thus, a new CAP Officer buys the Golf Shirt and USAF PANTS/BELT...then can purchase a USAF style shirt (if able to wear it) or a CAP style shirt (if desires to wear it) As time went on they coudl by the blue tie, Service coat et al.
The only issue I have is with the Black Tuxedo with mess dress accouterments on it. I don't think it would look that good. I personally with my tuxedo wear my CAP crest Lapel Pin.
QuoteAh, trying to change the process of others in the same general grouping as myself, does that mean that I am my brother's keeper?
If you are going to make statements that you are offended by an insult aimed at them, then yes, you are your brother's keeper. But, let's call off the politics on this and focus on the issue at hand. Our views on the WAR do not really enter into it and I will withdraw the observation if it returns us to the task at hand.
QuoteThe only issue I have is with the Black Tuxedo with mess dress accouterments on it. I don't think it would look that good. I personally with my tuxedo wear my CAP crest Lapel Pin.
We could ditch the medals, but the Blue Tie and Accouterments promote more uniformity in an environment where the MESS DRESS and CAP TUX would be worn together. The CAP Crest on the TUX would also foster a certain blending. It would also mean that one would only ahve to buy these items and rent the tux.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 03, 2007, 06:37:58 PM
Quoteif the CAP folks are the only ones at the mission base in a military style uniform, a lot of people, outsiders mainly, will automatically assume they are in charge,
Not a problem --- everyone should be wearing badges or vests identifying their jobs.
----
If the people at the local EOC have somehow gotten a negative impression about CAP it almost certainly has nothing to do with the uniforms and is about 95% due to the CAP persons involved. The wrong person will give the wrong impression no matter what they're wearing. Send the right person to the EOC and they won't give a flip what that CAP person is wearing.
As has been said before, the uniform is a "costume". If you are the new guy and show up at the EOC in a sharp proper (BDU or Service) uniform, it generally will get you some instant acceptance and people will assume you know what you are doing. If you show up in a polo shirt, you may get the stink eye with people wondering "Who is this new guy?, Why is he here? and What can he do? Like it or not, we represent the Air Force to most of the folks at the EOC no matter what we are wearing, so you might as well look and act the part. The big caveat is that if you don't know what you are doing and cannot maintain a proper military bearing and perform the required tasks, then you have no business representing CAP at the EOC.
Quote from: Al Sayre on August 03, 2007, 08:55:11 PM
As has been said before, the uniform is a "costume". If you are the new guy and show up at the EOC in a sharp proper (BDU or Service) uniform, it generally will get you some instant acceptance and people will assume you know what you are doing. If you show up in a polo shirt, you may get the stink eye with people wondering "Who is this new guy?, Why is he here? and What can he do? Like it or not, we represent the Air Force to most of the folks at the EOC no matter what we are wearing, so you might as well look and act the part. The big caveat is that if you don't know what you are doing and cannot maintain a proper military bearing and perform the required tasks, then you have no business representing CAP at the EOC.
Well said...
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2007, 08:16:21 PM
Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military." Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.
No, that's not it at all....it's long, difficult experience trying to repair relations with state police, county & local LE, other volunteer agencies (many of the leaders & members in these groups are themselves military veterans, remember) that were damaged by CAP ICs (or even Mission Coordinators....that's how far back some of this goes!) who thought they were part of the National Command Authority!
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 04, 2007, 04:48:20 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 03, 2007, 08:16:21 PM
Ridiculous, that assumes the world is "anti-military." Some of you have been listening to the ANTI-WAR LEFT too much what maintains that ALL THINGS MILITARY are somehow evil.
No, that's not it at all....it's long, difficult experience trying to repair relations with state police, county & local LE, other volunteer agencies (many of the leaders & members in these groups are themselves military veterans, remember) that were damaged by CAP ICs (or even Mission Coordinators....that's how far back some of this goes!) who thought they were part of the National Command Authority!
And so now we have to wear "golf shirts?" I would, rather say that now is the time to repair those relationships. We need to look like CAP and do our job while looking like CAP. I will apologize to no one for being the USAF Auxiliary, mine is to do my job as a UDF, GT3 or MS/MO...an IC or any of the Mission Staff is to do their part.
If a CAP Officer goes their to "do their role" and accoplish their mission, then we will have no problem. Let us not forget that we are at an EOC to privode CAP services to the greater effort. COMMAND, as in Incident Commander, is over CAP resources. When a FEMA Operative or other "more qualified" person arrives, the CAP IC is honor bound to step aside. Failure to do so would display arrogance and unprofessional behavior...the
scheisskopf in question is still such in minimum basic service dress or a golf shirt.
I'm not saying we all MUST wear golf shirts.
I am saying that there are some places in the country where CAP officers are viewed as overbearing....largely because CAP officers in those locales behaved in a manner that was, in fact, overbearing!
For this reason I'd like to see the golf shirt option remain in place so wing commanders and their subordinate commanders, ICs, and ES/Ops leadership can determine what is best to use in their area.
We should absolutely be proud of our AF heritage and CAP identity...but we also gotta :work & play well with others"!
QuoteI am saying that there are some places in the country where CAP officers are viewed as overbearing....largely because CAP officers in those locales behaved in a manner that was, in fact, overbearing!
The solution isn't to change the uniform, it is to change the CAP officer.
First, it isn't changing CAP uniform, rather using an existing one.
Second, changing CAP officers is easier said than done!
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 04, 2007, 08:02:41 PM
First, it isn't changing CAP uniform, rather using an existing one.
But the uniform is still not the issue. The officer is the issue. If the officer was in Full-Service Dress, or in Golf shirt- That was not the problem the problem was the officer acting in an improper manner.
Quote
Second, changing CAP officers is easier said than done!
"Stop acting in that manner, or you will never see the inside of an EOC ever again."
Changing his/her mannerisms are hard, but there are things that can be done to minimize their exposure to the outside.
Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.
Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 05, 2007, 05:22:54 AM
Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.
Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.
If I have a subordinate - pick any level- and he/she is acting appropriate, all I have to do is write an order forbidding him/her from working in the EOC. If higher levels decide to countermand that by ordering that member there, then they assume the consequences of doing so.
And your authority, consequently, is undermined, making it more difficult to deal with the next problem child.
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 05, 2007, 05:31:18 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 05, 2007, 05:22:54 AM
Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.
Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.
If I have a subordinate - pick any level- and he/she is acting appropriate, all I have to do is write an order forbidding him/her from working in the EOC. If higher levels decide to countermand that by ordering that member there, then they assume the consequences of doing so.
My emphasis.
Why would there be a problem if he/she is acting appropriate?
Because the people that are over a problem officer might not ever know what the problem was....they simply don't get invited to play anymore. That's normally how issues are handled and it sucks, but everyone is so afraid of saying something negative about a person that they'll simply avoid that person or situations involving that person rather than report misbehavior to their chain.
I see this problem a lot with CAP and ham radio operators...folks know they've had problems, but they don't remember exactly who/what....they just don't want any part of it.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 05, 2007, 05:22:54 AM
Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.
Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.
Hmm, we can't control our folks, so changing the uniform will make everything all better?
Considering that the polo is an authorized uniform and you want to eliminate it in ALL circumstances, you seem to think so.
Getting rid of the polo shirt uniform has nothing to do with the people in CAP. It just isn't an appropriate uniform for a military auxiliary in my opinion.
Your contention is that wearing civilian clothes will somehow compensate for sending the wrong CAP people to the EOC in the first place.
If the argument is that folks at EOC are going to either think CAP officers are cocky or incompetent, a polo shirt isnt going to fix that. Why dont we wear our service uniforms or field uniforms and worry as much about better training AND learning and higher skill and knowledge bases than we do about the stupid polo shirts. And for the CAP officers who can hold their own in an EOC environment because they know what they are doing, we shouldnt be thinking about dumbing down their appearance by sticking them in polo shirts so a few hyper-sensitive emergency or disaster management folks arent intimidated. In my experience, the people who are generally intimidated are those that dont know what they are doing. Lets represent ourselves as what we are which is a military auxiliary and save the polo shirts for barbecues and pool parties.
In EOC's, golf shirts are useful, but not required.
The one place where you might need golf shirts is doing CD or other LE work. Even military LE often have uniforms (or lack thereof) to work the LE arena. Depending on the amount of LE work or low profile HLS missions, a golf shirt might be required.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 05, 2007, 06:03:48 PM
In EOC's, golf shirts are useful, but not required.
The one place where you might need golf shirts is doing CD or other LE work. Even military LE often have uniforms (or lack thereof) to work the LE arena. Depending on the amount of LE work or low profile HLS missions, a golf shirt might be required.
Would that be the golf shirt with the CAP logo emblazoned on the chest?
Regarding Maj Carales's idea of standardizing to one type of CAP distinctive uniform for each USAF: Yes.
But I have one amendment: the one distinctive uniform that is going to be standardized to should take gray shoulder marks on its epaulets - not the blue "wannabe-USAF" shoulder marks being used on the White/Blue uniform, and not the metal "wannabe-USAF" grade being used on the TPU.
Until last year we had the white-and-gray uniform. Its appearance was the same as the new white-and-blue uniform, with one major exception: it uses actual CAP shoulder marks (gray loops), not USAF ones (blue loops). But then we saw the introduction of these new alternative uniforms (which seem to be designed solely for the purpose of "getting to wear USAF grade") - but why would anyone introduce a uniform that does not use CAP shoulder marks?
If they want to change the pants from gray to blue that's fine, but there is no purpose served by the blue shoulder marks other than to make us look LESS uniform (and allow the wearer to wear "wannabe-USAF" marks).
In the same way, the TPU coat idea seems OK (except that it should be allowed for all those not meeting weight/grooming standards, not just some of them) but only if it is changed to be worn with gray CAP shoulder marks, not metal "wannabe-USAF" grade.
CAP already has uniform shoulder marks (gray loops) which can be worn on all senior member dress uniforms - why introduce two uniform variants that don't use them?
Quote from: floridacyclist on August 05, 2007, 04:26:12 PM
Considering that the polo is an authorized uniform and you want to eliminate it in ALL circumstances, you seem to think so.
I wouldn't eliminate it in all circumstances, only as an official duty uniform. For casual wear in certain environments it may be appropriate, but not as a working uniform... my two cents.
None of the arguments I've seen yet would suggest that it would be any better than the same slacks with a white shirt and/or blue slacks with the blue/white shirt. The presentation of being "better than thou" lies with the individual, not the uniform. If anything the white/blue shirt would present a more professional image than the polo as a first impression.
What's even more interesting... the TPU service jacket's epaulets are fully functional, while the AF service dress jacket's are not, unless you do some careful surgery by adding a small velcro patch under the epaulet where the button is placed. Otherwise, you're relegated to using those fugly misshapen velcro-backed shoulder loop abortions. And currently, the AF service jacket is only available in shade 1620; MCSS used to stock the doubleknit 1625 jacket, but it went the way of the dinosaur. when it was retired in the last revision to AFI 36-2903. (Maybe they do, but I haven't been to an AF MCSS in years.)
Relax the grooming standard to allow neatly-trimmed beards with the TPU? All for it.
If they insist on keeping blue shoulder marks, then add CAP to them like in the olden days. That should be distinctive enough to keep the RealAirForce® from having kittens sideways and upside down.
Maj. C: If you're gonna spec out a black silly-vilian tux for a CAP corporate mess dress equivalent, they should follow this spec:
Tux jacket: black with shawl (rounded) collar, not the notch (suit) collar. Black satin lapel facings. Standard length jacket, no tails. CAP bright finish service dress buttons on the jacket; cut off the faux sleeve buttons. Let's go back to the old tradition of allowing a white dinner jacket in the summer months (Jun-Sept), like the old black and white AF mess dress.
Tux trousers: standard tux trousers with satin trouser seam braid and provisions for black suspenders.
Tux shoes: Lace-up or slip-on patent leather or corfam shoes. Plain toe, no designs, buckles or straps. Formal dress patent leather pumps acceptable.
Tux shirt: plain, pleated standard collar - no wingtip collars. And no frilly, faggadocious 70s-style tux shirts!
Black cummerbund and bow tie
AF mother-of-pearl or silver cufflinks and studs
Miniature medals and devices (both military and CAP - none of this schizophrenia over medals - if youse gots 'em, flaunt 'em!)
The mess dress 'dinner plate' badge: worn on the same approximate position as the mess dress jacket. However, if you wear the bullion dinner plate, you should match the devices on the left side in bullion.
Quote from: mdickinson on August 06, 2007, 12:03:20 AM
But I have one amendment: the one distinctive uniform that is going to be standardized to should take gray shoulder marks on its epaulets - not the blue "wannabe-USAF" shoulder marks being used on the White/Blue uniform, and not the metal "wannabe-USAF" grade being used on the TPU.
That's a reasonable concession to make...I have no problems with gray shoulder marks.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on August 06, 2007, 12:43:29 AM
Maj. C: If you're gonna spec out a black silly-vilian tux for a CAP corporate mess dress equivalent, they should follow this spec:
Tux jacket: black with shawl (rounded) collar, not the notch (suit) collar. Black satin lapel facings. Standard length jacket, no tails. CAP bright finish service dress buttons on the jacket; cut off the faux sleeve buttons. Let's go back to the old tradition of allowing a white dinner jacket in the summer months (Jun-Sept), like the old black and white AF mess dress.
Tux trousers: standard tux trousers with satin trouser seam braid and provisions for black suspenders.
Tux shoes: Lace-up or slip-on patent leather or corfam shoes. Plain toe, no designs, buckles or straps. Formal dress patent leather pumps acceptable.
Tux shirt: plain, pleated standard collar - no wingtip collars. And no frilly, faggadocious 70s-style tux shirts!
Black cummerbund and bow tie
AF mother-of-pearl or silver cufflinks and studs
Miniature medals and devices (both military and CAP - none of this schizophrenia over medals - if youse gots 'em, flaunt 'em!)
The mess dress 'dinner plate' badge: worn on the same approximate position as the mess dress jacket. However, if you wear the bullion dinner plate, you should match the devices on the left side in bullion.
It's doable...in fact I would say your suggestion would be best.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 06, 2007, 01:00:28 AMIt's doable...in fact I would say your suggestion would be best.
Maj. C. ... you've got my creative juices flowing. I do own a black tux (
de rigeur dress for certain Masonic and Eastern Star rituals and ceremonies). All I gotta get is mini medals, dinner plate and wings.
And another thing I forgot to mention: should we have the CAP-style mess dress shoulder boards or completely [censored] 'em altogether for a miniature (mid-size) grade insignia pin?
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on August 06, 2007, 01:15:37 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 06, 2007, 01:00:28 AMIt's doable...in fact I would say your suggestion would be best.
Maj. C. ... you've got my creative juices flowing. I do own a black tux (de rigeur dress for certain Masonic and Eastern Star rituals and ceremonies). All I gotta get is mini medals, dinner plate and wings.
And another thing I forgot to mention: should we have the CAP-style mess dress shoulder boards or completely [censored] 'em altogether for a miniature (mid-size) grade insignia pin?
I came up with the solution in another thread...
We keep the same size and shape of our officer insignia, but have them made in a different color. Nothing off-the-wall, but maybe blue like the FO insignia or such. That way they are recognizable, but not traditional commissioned insignia. Am I going crazy?
Not even going to touch that line
Quote from: jaybird512 on August 06, 2007, 01:20:19 AMI came up with the solution in another thread...
We keep the same size and shape of our officer insignia, but have them made in a different color. Nothing off-the-wall, but maybe blue like the FO insignia or such. That way they are recognizable, but not traditional commissioned insignia. Am I going crazy?
Wouldn't quite work, though. I think the CAP mess dress boards are fine the way they are - they're distinctive enough to be different than the Air Force's and dark enough to probably work with a black tux.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 05, 2007, 06:35:01 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 05, 2007, 05:31:18 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 05, 2007, 05:22:54 AM
Fortunately or unfortunately few of us have absolute authority....and disciplining, correcting or chastising senior members often is ineffective because the commander or IC doing so fails to gain the support of higher levels of the chain of command.
Sad, but true....and the rest of us reap the consequences.
If I have a subordinate - pick any level- and he/she is acting appropriate, all I have to do is write an order forbidding him/her from working in the EOC. If higher levels decide to countermand that by ordering that member there, then they assume the consequences of doing so.
My emphasis.
Why would there be a problem if he/she is acting appropriate?
Opps, meant to say "INappropriate"
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 06, 2007, 01:39:10 AMOpps, meant to say "INappropriate"
You'll live... after being virtually roasted over the coals by the esteemed CAPTalk assembly! ;D
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on August 06, 2007, 01:15:37 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 06, 2007, 01:00:28 AMIt's doable...in fact I would say your suggestion would be best.
Maj. C. ... you've got my creative juices flowing. I do own a black tux (de rigeur dress for certain Masonic and Eastern Star rituals and ceremonies). All I gotta get is mini medals, dinner plate and wings.
And another thing I forgot to mention: should we have the CAP-style mess dress shoulder boards or completely [censored] 'em altogether for a miniature (mid-size) grade insignia pin?
I'd say dump the shoulder boards and grade insignia for the tux. Using only the badges and medals, members can rent a tux when needed and not spend
another couple hundred bucks on yet
another uniform. If you
REALLY want to have grade insignia, use a mini pin.
Which of you guys is going to buy me a tux to wear to Wing Conference once a year?
Quote from: RiverAux on August 06, 2007, 02:49:21 AM
Which of you guys is going to buy me a tux to wear to Wing Conference once a year?
The idea is that you rent it so you don't have to own it.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 06, 2007, 02:51:06 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on August 06, 2007, 02:49:21 AM
Which of you guys is going to buy me a tux to wear to Wing Conference once a year?
The idea is that you rent it so you don't have to own it.
Better specify what to rent, or else...
Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on August 06, 2007, 03:11:46 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 06, 2007, 02:51:06 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on August 06, 2007, 02:49:21 AM
Which of you guys is going to buy me a tux to wear to Wing Conference once a year?
The idea is that you rent it so you don't have to own it.
Better specify what to rent, or else...
I believe Chuck has outlined it.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on August 06, 2007, 01:48:39 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 06, 2007, 01:39:10 AMOpps, meant to say "INappropriate"
You'll live... after being virtually roasted over the coals by the esteemed CAPTalk assembly! ;D
Gee, it does feel kinda
warm in here. . . . . ;)
Besides, I've made bigger goofs. . . . . . :angel:
Quote from: arajca on August 06, 2007, 02:20:00 AM
I'd say dump the shoulder boards and grade insignia for the tux. Using only the badges and medals, members can rent a tux when needed and not spend another couple hundred bucks on yet another uniform. If you REALLY want to have grade insignia, use a mini pin.
Heh... I'd like to see the reaction of your local tux rental place when you bring back a tuxedo after having affixed three rows of mini medals, a GT badge, a pair of CAP wings, and a "dinner plate" to it for a weekend!
Do you think the rental shop will accept that garment back with all those holes poked in it? Be prepared to buy it if you're going to turn it into Swiss cheese...
Luckily, used ones can often be bought at a reasonable price from tux rental places.
Quote from: RogueLeader on August 05, 2007, 04:45:22 AM
Quote from: ZigZag911 on August 04, 2007, 08:02:41 PM
First, it isn't changing CAP uniform, rather using an existing one.
But the uniform is still not the issue. The officer is the issue. If the officer was in Full-Service Dress, or in Golf shirt- That was not the problem the problem was the officer acting in an improper manner.
Quote
Second, changing CAP officers is easier said than done!
"Stop acting in that manner, or you will never see the inside of an EOC ever again."
Changing his/her mannerisms are hard, but there are things that can be done to minimize their exposure to the outside.
eServices has a simple solution available to solve this problem. The Squadron Commander, Group Commander, Wing Commander and the ESO's & DOS all have the power to suspend a members qualifications. I can guarantee that if I get a call that one of my people is acting inappropriately at the EOC, I'm pushing that button and then investigating, not the other way around. If it proves groundless, then I can remove the suspension. If not, then they are probably going to be deserving a 2b anyway. YMMV
Quote from: mdickinson on August 06, 2007, 12:00:37 PM
Quote from: arajca on August 06, 2007, 02:20:00 AM
I'd say dump the shoulder boards and grade insignia for the tux. Using only the badges and medals, members can rent a tux when needed and not spend another couple hundred bucks on yet another uniform. If you REALLY want to have grade insignia, use a mini pin.
Heh... I'd like to see the reaction of your local tux rental place when you bring back a tuxedo after having affixed three rows of mini medals, a GT badge, a pair of CAP wings, and a "dinner plate" to it for a weekend!
Do you think the rental shop will accept that garment back with all those holes poked in it? Be prepared to buy it if you're going to turn it into Swiss cheese...
Luckily, used ones can often be bought at a reasonable price from tux rental places.
No more holes than from boutonnieres, corsages and lapel pins. Normally, a good laundering will mitigate any holes, they have their ways.
Quote from: Major Carrales on August 06, 2007, 03:31:50 PM
Quote from: mdickinson on August 06, 2007, 12:00:37 PM
Quote from: arajca on August 06, 2007, 02:20:00 AM
I'd say dump the shoulder boards and grade insignia for the tux. Using only the badges and medals, members can rent a tux when needed and not spend another couple hundred bucks on yet another uniform. If you REALLY want to have grade insignia, use a mini pin.
Heh... I'd like to see the reaction of your local tux rental place when you bring back a tuxedo after having affixed three rows of mini medals, a GT badge, a pair of CAP wings, and a "dinner plate" to it for a weekend!
Do you think the rental shop will accept that garment back with all those holes poked in it? Be prepared to buy it if you're going to turn it into Swiss cheese...
Luckily, used ones can often be bought at a reasonable price from tux rental places.
No more holes than from boutonnieres, corsages and lapel pins. Normally, a good laundering will mitigate any holes, they have their ways.
Especially if you're not poking holes through the satin parts like the lapel. As long as you're not leaving the stuff on for several days, the holes will easily close up.
For the folks worried about holes, there are a a number of ribbon rack creating places that use magnets. Now, the magnets they use are only a little stronger than your average fridge magnet, but you could easily attach stronger ones.
I've even considered cutting the pins of a badge or two, cutting some "valleys" in the badge enough to be able to attach a magnet where it still stays flush. Then just use one of those speaker magnets suitably modified to fit behind it on a shirt where there is no bulge to it.
It would easily solve any issues of poking holes in anything. The new bullion CAP seal would be easy to do this with, it's a lot lighter than the old metal one. That one was heavy. Ribbons, badges, and even nametags (for the uniforms that have one) would be simple. No one has seemed to be pick up on the idea and market it yet.
Quote from: RiverAux on August 06, 2007, 02:49:21 AM
Which of you guys is going to buy me a tux to wear to Wing Conference once a year?
Good rule of thumb if you're considering buying a tux or a mess dress uniform: If you can at least wear it more than twice a year, one can probably justify buying a tux or mess dress rather than rent. (Can't rent mess dress, though.)
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 06, 2007, 06:11:11 PM
The new bullion CAP seal would be easy to do this with, it's a lot lighter than the old metal one.
The bullion seal is new? It's the only one I've ever owned and I got it handed down by someone who used it for 10 years before I did, so it's got at least 15 yrs on it...
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 06, 2007, 06:24:02 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 06, 2007, 06:11:11 PM
The new bullion CAP seal would be easy to do this with, it's a lot lighter than the old metal one.
The bullion seal is new? It's the only one I've ever owned and I got it handed down by someone who used it for 10 years before I did, so it's got at least 15 yrs on it...
Now that I think of it, not really. The first time I saw it was about 10 years ago. It was new then. We had a region commander show up at our Region Staff College, and at the banquet he wore it. Someone asked about it, and he told them he'd just gotten it, that it had just started selling.
I do know it doesn't go back much farther than about '96. I had a mess dress at that time, and I had to wear the old metal one. Felt about the same weight as a .38 snub. May not actually weigh as much as one, it just felt like that at the time.
At least the metal one would stop a .38 snub... :)
do you think it's really that strong a metal? I think it would still pierce right through.
sorry... [/sarcasm]
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 06, 2007, 07:16:53 PM
At least the metal one would stop a .38 snub... :)
I may have my old one, and I know someone with a .38 snub. I'll see if I can find it, and may test the hypothesis.
^^ Why not wear one inside, on the opposite side to counterbalance? :angel: