I have had a problem getting and keeping up with uniform changes. Since we are no longer able to associate our aircraft as USAF Aux, maybe now would be a good time to switch uniforms. For field uniforms, why not buy the same ones as the Boy Scouts? The are Khaki over Green, look professional (just like the Forest Service and many sheriff's department) we could wear our ribbons on the sash over our chests, we could have our unit numbers or call signs on our shoulders and can buy these anywhere there is a Scout troop! We could even transition scouts right into CAP without having them buy new uniforms! What a great source for new members! For formal meetings, we could use the Salvation Army's uniform. Dark slacks, white shirt, black tie and maroon blazer with rank. Again, easy to find and buy, inexpensive, sharp, and we can avoid the USAF Aux look. Again, I would think we could attract some new members from the SA too. I hear all the time people not liking the AF uniform because of grooming or weight standards, they are hard to find and purchase, look to much like the Air Force and so on.
Is your sarcasm generator on overdrive? ;)
I will try this again...I am serious! Boy Scouts have explorer posts that do police, fire, EMS and aviation services. What a great place to find highly trained and experienced members. The transition would be cheap, a win-win. Our local police and volunteer fire departments all have explorer post and do much of what CAP ground teams do, search and rescue, first aid, crime scene investigation and security. They are frequent and reliable personnel on missing person searches, do crowd control at fires and accidents and so on.
One more benefit, no Vanguard participation!
I bet those shorts would really look cool on some of the senior members!
Quote from: sparks on July 03, 2007, 04:41:29 PM
One more benefit, no Vanguard participation!
I bet those shorts would really look cool on some of the senior members!
On
some. . . . Not nearly
all . . .
um...no.
We already have a full line of non-USAF uniforms. They're called CAP Corporate Uniforms. Why duplicate what already exists?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 04:40:36 PM
I will try this again...I am serious! Boy Scouts have explorer posts that do police, fire, EMS and aviation services. What a great place to find highly trained and experienced members. The transition would be cheap, a win-win. Our local police and volunteer fire departments all have explorer post and do much of what CAP ground teams do, search and rescue, first aid, crime scene investigation and security. They are frequent and reliable personnel on missing person searches, do crowd control at fires and accidents and so on.
NO! We are the USAF Aux. Not any of these organizations. This is why we have the uniforms we do. If theirs are cheaper for you or more to your liking, go be part of them.
Obviously you haven't purchased a scout unifom recently. Twenty-five years ago, the scouts had Oscar De La Renta or Pierre Cardin or someone redesign their uniforms and the price went sky high and the quality is not what it used to be either. If we need to go to one uniform, then it could be the BBDU and blue flight suits. They both wear well and are not too expensive. That being said, I agree with the above..uhhh no, no scout uniforms.. Thank you very muchly.. Oh and by the way, there is already a process for combining the scouts and cadets in the Reg's so again..no and no..
Geez, we've had some doozies, but this one takes the cake.
Why would the Civil Air Patrol want to look like the Boy Scouts? The current jokes are bad enough as it is, why would we want to paint a target on our backs?
And that's definitely a new attempt to recruiting: Change our uniform to theirs, so they'll join us.
YGBSM...
This thread is just funny.
I have no problem w/the blue bdu's or flightsuit. I actually think the look great, just need an orange shirt for ground teams and an orange undershirt for th e flightsuit.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 03, 2007, 05:01:04 PM
Geez, we've had some doozies, but this one takes the cake.
Why would the Civil Air Patrol want to look like the Boy Scouts? The current jokes are bad enough as it is, why would we want to paint a target on our backs?
And that's definitely a new attempt to recruiting: Change our uniform to theirs, so they'll join us.
YGBSM...
Heh, I think that there was some thick sarcasm in the original post ;)
Quote from: capchiro on July 03, 2007, 04:57:16 PM
If we need to go to one uniform, then it could be the BBDU and blue flight suits. They both wear well and are not too expensive.
Not too expensive!?!?!?
The blue flight suits are $280! I call that expensive.
BTW, I agree. Corporate uniform all the way.
We already have a full line of non-USAF uniforms. They're called CAP Corporate Uniforms. Why duplicate what already exists?
Correct...but with so many are we really uniform?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:05:16 PM
We already have a full line of non-USAF uniforms. They're called CAP Corporate Uniforms. Why duplicate what already exists?
Correct...but with so many are we really uniform?
So you want to add even more variations? How does that solve the problem?
CAP doesn't phase anything out, or takes a decade to do it. Right now the best bet is to consolidate some uniforms, and establish some phaseout dates that aren't 6 years out. That Guayberra (or however you spell it) shirt took forever to drop off.
This better be sarcasm, or I'm gonna talk about fundraising in Nevada brothels again.
We just need two uniforms, the field green and khaki and the maroon blazer for "business" atire.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:13:36 PM
We just need two uniforms, the field green and khaki and the maroon blazer for "business" atire.
No we don't. We're not the Boy Scouts, and we're not the Salvation Army. We have variations to accomodate all of our members. We could stand to consolidate a good bit, but wearing Boy Scout uniforms is a ridiculous idea.
And people would have to replace their exisiting uniforms. It's not as "cheap" a proposition as you make it out to be. That's a couple hundred bucks that I most certainly have far better uses for.
of course we would phase it in, I like the idea of going back to the blue jumpsuits of the past and use them for flying, lightweight and 4 sizes fits all.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:24:01 PM
of course we would phase it in, I like the idea of going back to the blue jumpsuits of the past and use them for flying, lightweight and 4 sizes fits all.
I don't see how people wore those blue jumpsuits. You call them "lightweight", everybody I knew called them "thin". That bright color look was in vogue in the '70's and early '80's, but it's considered tacky now. What's next? Tie Dye undershirts?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:24:01 PM
of course we would phase it in, I like the idea of going back to the blue jumpsuits of the past and use them for flying, lightweight and 4 sizes fits all.
I presume you're talking about the infamous Smurf suits.
I don't know if you've seen the variety of body sizes that our memebrs have, but four sizes won't cover it.
Since cadets are drawn to us for our USAF ties, AND many wings get free uniforms through the National Guard or DRMO, AND the fact that USAF buys most of our cadets their first set of blues, it makes no sense to take cadets out of USAF uniforms.
Now seniors are a different story. I think we could run a fine CAP in Navy Blue BDUs and Jumpsuits (the Jumpsuit - called the "utility unform" - is $40. It's only $265 if you want it in Nomex). Dress suits are actually less of a concern - most seniors don't need 'em. We could stick with what we have just fine.
Incidentally, a few years back I ran into some Salvation Army types at a mission - and they were in grey slacks and aviator shirts! The only real difference from our "white and greys" were the maroon epaulets.
Trimming down our wide variety of uniforms? Great idea.
Inventing new ones? Bad idea.
Throwing out our uniform heritage completely? Terrible idea. Do not pass go; do not collect $200.
Quote from: STX on July 03, 2007, 05:03:19 PM
Quote from: capchiro on July 03, 2007, 04:57:16 PM
If we need to go to one uniform, then it could be the BBDU and blue flight suits. They both wear well and are not too expensive.
Not too expensive!?!?!?
The blue flight suits are $280! I call that expensive.
BTW, I agree. Corporate uniform all the way.
Hey, you and gloria go face the opera. The USAF uniforms are vital.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:13:36 PM
We just need two uniforms, the field green and khaki and the maroon blazer for "business" atire.
Yes. we need 2 uniforms. 1. USAF versions and 2. Corporate versions. Period, end of story.
That would actually be 4 uniforms (field and dress versions of both USAF and corporate), but basically I agree with one exception; the polo shirt should be worn when representing CAP at civillian functions where polo shirts are usually worn (EOC classes, other events calling for business casual etc) in order to better blend in and not seem so high-falutin.
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 03, 2007, 07:04:21 PM
That would actually be 4 uniforms (field and dress versions of both USAF and corporate), but basically I agree with one exception; the polo shirt should be worn when representing CAP at civillian functions where polo shirts are usually worn (EOC classes, other events calling for business casual etc) in order to better blend in and not seem so high-falutin.
I meant 2 classes of uniforms. USAF and Corporate with the various versions in each. Agree the polo could be used for non uniform events.
Quote from: LtCol White on July 03, 2007, 06:44:01 PMYes. we need 2 uniforms. 1. USAF versions and 2. Corporate versions. Period, end of story.
But not so many corporate uniforms...
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:24:01 PM
of course we would phase it in, I like the idea of going back to the blue jumpsuits of the past and use them for flying, lightweight and 4 sizes fits all.
I.will. not.ever.wear.the.Smurf.suit. EVER!
Quote from: arajca on July 03, 2007, 05:28:18 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:24:01 PM
of course we would phase it in, I like the idea of going back to the blue jumpsuits of the past and use them for flying, lightweight and 4 sizes fits all.
I presume you're talking about the infamous Smurf suits.
I don't know if you've seen the variety of body sizes that our memebrs have, but four sizes won't cover it.
That abomination came in 10 male sizes, and 7 female sizes, and after seeing some members wear them, that wasn't enough. They werem't flattering at all, and made most folks look like either bright blue sausages, or bright blue Shar Peis.
YUCK!
Quote from: 12211985 on July 03, 2007, 07:20:32 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on July 03, 2007, 06:44:01 PMYes. we need 2 uniforms. 1. USAF versions and 2. Corporate versions. Period, end of story.
But not so many corporate uniforms...
Agreed. Should be:
Mess Dress/Blazer combo
USAF Blues/TPU
USAF Flight Suit/Blue Flight Suit
BDU/BBDU
Gray/white combo necessary for those who don't meet grooming standards
Polo shirt for non-uniform functions but not to be worn as a uniform
Quote from: SarDragon on July 03, 2007, 07:27:35 PM
Quote from: arajca on July 03, 2007, 05:28:18 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:24:01 PM
of course we would phase it in, I like the idea of going back to the blue jumpsuits of the past and use them for flying, lightweight and 4 sizes fits all.
I presume you're talking about the infamous Smurf suits.
I don't know if you've seen the variety of body sizes that our memebrs have, but four sizes won't cover it.
That abomination came in 10 male sizes, and 7 female sizes, and after seeing some members wear them, that wasn't enough. They werem't flattering at all, and made most folks look like either bright blue sausages, or bright blue Shar Peis.
YUCK!
They were also affectionately known as the "blue trashbag" ;D
Okay guys, back in the day (precisely late 70's) I wore the Smurf suit to fly in SE Florida and did sundown patrols, etc. and they were about the most comfortable thing we had to fly in then. We were in a new 152 and it was small and hot, hot, and did I say hot?? Of course all of you other lounge lizards were wearing leisure suits then with white elevator shoes, so I guess it was perspective and timing, right?? The Smurf suits were also relatively cheap at the time. And as bad as they were, they are still better looking than scout uniforms or Salvation Army uniforms, so there.. And quit being mean to Shar Peis, some of our best Commanders have resembled same..
Quote from: LtCol White on July 03, 2007, 07:28:07 PM
Quote from: 12211985 on July 03, 2007, 07:20:32 PM
But not so many corporate uniforms...
Agreed. Should be:
Mess Dress/Blazer combo
USAF Blues/TPU
USAF Flight Suit/Blue Flight Suit
BDU/BBDU
Gray/white combo necessary for those who don't meet grooming standards
Polo shirt for non-uniform functions but not to be worn as a uniform
And the numbers climb again. I understand (and had forgotten about) the mess dress/blazer and the flightsuit, but ditch either the TPU or the Grey/whites.
We should just have one corporate alternative for each primary AF uniform.
Ditch the TPU, ditch the TPU!!! >:D
Quote from: capchiro on July 03, 2007, 07:31:44 PM
Okay guys, back in the day (precisely late 70's) I wore the Smurf suit to fly in SE Florida and did sundown patrols, etc. and they were about the most comfortable thing we had to fly in then. We were in a new 152 and it was small and hot, hot, and did I say hot?? Of course all of you other lounge lizards were wearing leisure suits then with white elevator shoes, so I guess it was perspective and timing, right?? The Smurf suits were also relatively cheap at the time. And as bad as they were, they are still better looking than scout uniforms or Salvation Army uniforms, so there.. And quit being mean to Shar Peis, some of our best Commanders have resembled same..
Yeah... I had a leisure suit... So what? I never had a Nehru jacket!
Quote from: SarDragon on July 03, 2007, 07:22:46 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:24:01 PM
of course we would phase it in, I like the idea of going back to the blue jumpsuits of the past and use them for flying, lightweight and 4 sizes fits all.
I.will. not.ever.wear.the.Smurf.suit. EVER!
I had hoped to go to the NB in Vegas with my Smurf Suit. I was planning on turning it into a cross between between a Vietnam War AF "party suit" and an Elvis jumpsuit - mini cape with sequined circle and tri-prop, that sort of thing.
I still have the plain Smurf Suit: I'm just looking for an appropriate send off for it, that's all.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on July 03, 2007, 07:48:01 PM
Yeah... I had a leisure suit... So what? I never had a Nehru jacket!
I still have a Nehru jacket!! (Those things
are coming back into style, aren't they?)
Jack
Quote from: 12211985 on July 03, 2007, 07:46:17 PM
Ditch the TPU, ditch the TPU!!! >:D
Not gonna happen.
The aviator grays will go before the corporate blues do.
Fact. Live with it.
Jack
WIWAC I was looking forward to turning Senior just so I could wear the Guayabera shirt combo. :P We need to bring that back >:D
I have to side with those who are pushing for one version of each available uniform and that's it.
Here's how I break it down:
AF Style CAP Style
Mess Dress Blazer Combo
Service Dress Corporate Blue
BDU BBDU
AF Flight Suit (aircrew only) CAP Flight Suit (aircrew only)
Polo Shirt/gray slacks
Thoughts?
Jack
Of course, the foregoing presupposes CAP NHQ allows the fuzzies as well as the fat to wear corporate blues.
Jack
Quote from: capchiroThe Smurf suits were also relatively cheap at the time.
Well, that depends on your perspective. $16.95 is chump change today, but some of us lower paid military folks from the late '70s might disagree.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:24:01 PM
of course we would phase it in, I like the idea of going back to the blue jumpsuits of the past and use them for flying, lightweight and 4 sizes fits all.
SMURFSUITS?!?!?!?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 05:24:01 PM
of course we would phase it in, I like the idea of going back to the blue jumpsuits of the past and use them for flying, lightweight and 4 sizes fits all.
No. No, no, no! This is a bad idea! The smurf suits were gay! Please, don't give national any ideas!!!
I would like to make it clear that I do not like, reject, and repudiate the idea of CAP wearing Scout uniforms (and I was an Eagle Scout and, later on, a Scoutmaster....Lord, I hated those knee socks with garters at summer camp!)
Having stated this, I must congratulate SARPilotNY on offering one of the most original ideas we've seen on here in quite awhile!
I have another idea for flight suits. I see the prisoners on hand crews fighting fires in orange Nomex jump suits. The Bureau of Prisons could give us some old ones for flight suits for flying and could even use them for traffic control or ground teams! They have elastic waistbands, hence one size fits many, highly visable and fire resistant! Win Win and cheap! Just stencil CAP on the back so the cops won't confuse us with escaped prisoners.
Y'all ever feel like one of your lower extremities is being gently ripped off your body?
This isn't April first! I have to apologize to our females because I was just talking about the guys, for the ladies the Girl Scouts have almost identical uniforms.
Anyone with current experience with the BSA/GSA would know that uniforms are almost a foreign concept to some of them, especially the GSA.
The BSA requires the whole suit, about $100 if all new, though I have seen the shirt worn with jeans.
The GSA currently has no required uniform - you don't even have to have the vest/sash. Even if you do buy the uniform it doesn't look very uniform. The days of the dresses and the funny hats are long gone. When we went looking for a uniform for my daughter, the Brownie, she has the choice b/w a yellow turtle neck and a blue short sleeve shirt to wear with the brown slacks. A troop leader cannot require a uniform, even if she provides it herself.
Well I guess the ladies can just wear the "men's" combo just like BDUs. I would keep the sash so we could have our ribbons that would be redone as merit badges on the uniform for a more formal look. I don't think we would be confused with the Brazilian's Civil Air Patrol...does anyone know what they wear? I think we should avoid whatever the look like! I would sudjest the American flag over the pocket.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 03, 2007, 10:41:19 PM
I have another idea for flight suits. I see the prisoners on hand crews fighting fires in orange Nomex jump suits. The Bureau of Prisons could give us some old ones for flight suits for flying and could even use them for traffic control or ground teams! They have elastic waistbands, hence one size fits many, highly visable and fire resistant! Win Win and cheap! Just stencil CAP on the back so the cops won't confuse us with escaped prisoners.
Can't wear orange flightsuits anymore, been written out of 39-1.
Stenciling some new on the back doesn't change the fact that it's still a former prison jumpsuit. Cops are still going to be checking on someone that's wearing one. Besides, show me that you can clothe 65,000 people. Betcha can't.
What is this obsession with reclothing CAP with someone elses uniforms or cast-offs? If you feel a need to wear someone elses uniform, join
them, don't change CAP.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 04:48:19 AM
Well I guess the ladies can just wear the "men's" combo just like BDUs. I would keep the sash so we could have our ribbons that would be redone as merit badges on the uniform for a more formal look. I don't think we would be confused with the Brazilian's Civil Air Patrol...does anyone know what they wear? I think we should avoid whatever the look like! I would sudjest the American flag over the pocket.
OK, I get it now. Jokes over. The stupid mispelling put it over the top.
I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them. That would be a great idea. CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops.
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 05:09:12 AM
I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them. That would be a great idea. CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops.
Some heads up to understand, please!!!
Find the hidden message!!!
I'm missing the hidden message???
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 05:09:12 AM
I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them. That would be a great idea. CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops.
CAP does not use AFI 36-2903, therefore there is no contradiction.
Second, do you really think the Army is going to run out of flags for their uniforms? I have two on Velcro. For my Army uniform, that's one more than I actually need.
Another advantage with new uniforms, maybe we could cut the uniform regs. to just a few pages.
I thought we could still wear the orange flightsuits, saw some folks from NJ Wing wearing them a short time ago.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 04, 2007, 05:22:01 AMCAP does not use AFI 36-2903, therefore there is no contradiction.
Okay. What I meant was, "it is
uber-bassackwards for the Auxiliary of the USAF to be wearing an item on their BDUs that is forbidden for wear on USAF BDUs." It's like the kid who says "yeah, I know the football team has a dress code... but I'm going to wear the other team's jersey anyway becaue I think it looks better than ours."
NOTE: I am
not saying the Air Force and the Army are against each other. I was just using the football team analogy to prove a point. That was the best one I could think of at the time.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 04, 2007, 05:22:01 AMSecond, do you really think the Army is going to run out of flags for their uniforms? I have two on Velcro. For my Army uniform, that's one more than I actually need.
Well hey, it was just an idea. A little brainstroming never hurt anyone, right? Especially when others are thought of.
What are you saying, then?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 05:30:55 AM
Another advantage with new uniforms, maybe we could cut the uniform regs. to just a few pages.
No, you can't. You have to include phase out periods for the old stuff. You cannot announce a new uniform and then state that the old ones are immediately gone. I'm not sure, but it's probably against the law in some way.
Second, because you have the old stuff, it has to be covered in the regs. Along with the new stuff. Therefore, in the exact opposite result of what you intended, your manual gets larger.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 05:41:25 AM
I thought we could still wear the orange flightsuits, saw some folks from NJ Wing wearing them a short time ago.
Then they're wrong. If anyone is injured on a CAP mission then technically they were participating without wearing a uniform (a phased out uniform is not a uniform), and they
may have insurance coverage refused. Most people think it won't happen to them, but when it does they don't have a leg to stand on.
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 05:51:58 AMWhat I meant was, "it is uber-bassackwards for the Auxiliary of the USAF to be wearing an item on their BDUs that is forbidden for wear on USAF BDUs."
Forbidden is a strong word, but accurate. The one explanation that was sent down was to indicate a "One CAP" mentality. Personnally, I think this would have been better served by replacing wing patches with a flag. Instead, some members have to decide which of a few patches they're authorized they want to display.
QuoteIt's like the kid who says "yeah, I know the football team has a dress code... but I'm going to wear the other team's jersey anyway becaue I think it looks better than ours."
Not really. More like the JV football team is wearing the colors of another local school instead of stuff similar to their own Varsity team.
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 05:51:58 AMQuote from: Hawk200 on July 04, 2007, 05:22:01 AMSecond, do you really think the Army is going to run out of flags for their uniforms? I have two on Velcro. For my Army uniform, that's one more than I actually need.
Well hey, it was just an idea. A little brainstroming never hurt anyone, right? Especially when others are thought of.
The military is not as bad off in some ways as some people might think. I've known times when funding wasn't available, but it has never been so bad that people couldn't have a complete uniform.
You know I really like the idea of the orange Flight Suit!! Figure we could have CAP on it and also our CAP ID#.
It would look something like this!
(http://www.elmiracap.com/images/stories//news%20items/ORANGE.jpg)
>:D
See...what a great idea! I bet the cadet from Colorado that was running with his lights and siren on (and was caught) has one that we could use as a demo! But really, what is so wrong about our aircrews and ground teams being "highly" visable? Hell, NASA test pilots wear these...and for good reason.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 02:50:14 PM
See...what a great idea! I bet the cadet from Colorado that was running with his lights and siren on (and was caught) has one that we could use as a demo! But really, what is so wrong about our aircrews and ground teams being "highly" visable? Hell, NASA test pilots wear these...and for good reason.
Why does your aircrew need to be "highly visible"? Nobody can see them in the airplane.
We don't have test pilots. There's no good reason for our people to wear them.
Just think how well we can stand out from the rest of the emergency crews as we find in this most excellent example of a CAP officer making himself of use to the fine men in blue.
(http://www.schuminweb.com/images/photography/2005/confirmation/movies/supreme-court-2.jpg)
Then again, I do find that when the CAP vans are replaced, we are going to use more energy efficent modes of transportation.
From what I understand we will also be allowed to wear additional patches on the jumpsuit too!
Of course manadatory hard hats are issued from HQ.
(http://www.cfcnca.org/about/message/images/dotderby029.jpg)
:angel:
See now you have the idea...a perfect uniform where we can wear our award on our uniforms in the field...I like that! The first picture was obviously an aircrew member or udf team member that was told he would not get a find ribbon for locating an ELT at ELT's r us...he had a temper tantrum and was escorted off the search base. Did you notice he did not have ANY ribbons on his jumpsuit?
Quote from: ZigZag911 on July 03, 2007, 09:36:40 PM
I would like to make it clear that I do not like, reject, and repudiate the idea of CAP wearing Scout uniforms (and I was an Eagle Scout and, later on, a Scoutmaster....Lord, I hated those knee socks with garters at summer camp!)
Having stated this, I must congratulate SARPilotNY on offering one of the most original ideas we've seen on here in quite awhile!
I would classify it as ridiculous rather than original
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 05:41:25 AM
I thought we could still wear the orange flightsuits, saw some folks from NJ Wing wearing them a short time ago.
Have you even read 39-1? You're proposing uniform changes and admitting that you don't even know what the current uniforms ARE.
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 05:09:12 AM
I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them. That would be a great idea. CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops.
Exactly WHAT planet are you from??
The great planet earth! I am tired of seeing a dozen different uniforms...that defeats the term uniform. As far as the 39-1, we could make it just a few pages with one utility uniform, dress uniform and flight/field uniform. Since we are not the military, just a private corporation, we really don't need or need to be confused with the military or SWAT. Ever been on a UDF team and have people think you are the police or tried to find a ground team in the field in BDUs? The AF really doesn't want us to look like them, that is what they force us to look different, in fact we already do. Most of our members are overweight, hair is too long etc. and frankly we act un professional and do not respect the core values of our military. If we responded to war the same way we respond to missions, today (July 4th) would just be another work day for us under the Queen.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
The great planet earth! I am tired of seeing a dozen different uniforms...that defeats the term uniform. As far as the 39-1, we could make it just a few pages with one utility uniform, dress uniform and flight/field uniform. Since we are not the military, just a private corporation, we really don't need or need to be confused with the military or SWAT. Ever been on a UDF team and have people think you are the police or tried to find a ground team in the field in BDUs? The AF really doesn't want us to look like them, that is what they force us to look different, in fact we already do. Most of our members are overweight, hair is too long etc. and frankly we act un professional and do not respect the core values of our military. If we responded to war the same way we respond to missions, today (July 4th) would just be another work day for us under the Queen.
So now you are an expert on what USAF wants as well? I think you just need to belong to one of the other agencies whose uniforms you seem to prefer over the CAP ones. Your absurd suggestions will NEVER go anywhere beyond your own little world. But thats ok because apparently they like you there.
done
I am confused...why did the Air Force years ago make us wear maroon shoulder boards and today different shoulder board? When I first joined, our uniform was identical except for the wing patch. It was changed over the years because CAP (we) embarrassed the USAF by the way we looked and our actions on the base and in the public. Respect was a two way street, we made it a one way street. Why do we have this need to be like the Air Force? Can't we stand on our own without them?
BTW
why do we want to be so invisible, vs. visable? Orange in the field and in the air sure makes us more visable and safer. Remember safety?
I was on a ground team once a had a bullet wiz over our head because nobody could see our orange vests! I have heard seniors and cadet complain of having a hard time finding, buying and sewing their uniforms. The smurf jumpsuits were plug and play, everything sewn on it at the door.
And they were great flying in during the east coast Summers.
I get sick of seeing pictures of our overweight members discrediting the Air Force uniforms or seeing eight people in eight different "uniforms".
If you want to be really visible in the air, why wear an orange flight suit? Why dont you paint your plane orange?
SOunds like a good idea to me!
I'll propose it to TP and company!
(http://www.elmiracap.com/images/stories//news%20items/ORANGE2.jpg)
>:D
Its really hard to carry that orange airplane with you after you crash. When I fly for CAP or fly for myself or another agency I carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone, the phone numbers for all the state police agencies so if I do crash and survive, I can increase the chance of making the golden hour for trauma or the golden 24 hours for aircraft accident victims. (plus GPS w/mapping software ) I know if I crash anytime in the late morning and beyond and expect CAP to find me that day is a joke. I know better...lets see, I crash after taking off after sunrise at 8 am in the winter, day time temp 40 degrees, night time 10 degrees. I file a flight plan for a 4 .5 hour flight. I crash at 9am. My 121.5 old fashioned ELT goes off, I am just a mile from a town with an airport. First SARSAT pass goes over at 9:45, second at 11:15 and the AFRCC goes to mission. They call around looking for our alerting officer, the message goes to voice mail since he is in a meeting. Meeting is over at noon...but it is lunch time. He makes a few calls (like ten) and cannot find any IC because they all are at work or won't take the mission. More hits, positive airborne, even the FBO can hear the ELT. Now the FAA is making phone calls to my family because I failed to close my flight plan. It's one in the afternoon, just 3 more hours of daylight. By 2 o'clock the ALNOT is received by the AFRCC. They have an IC but he can't get off work till 4 pm, the mission must wait. Does he give it over to the sheriff??? NO! 4pm the IC leaves work and gets home by 4:30. It is now dark, too late for an aircraft. He tries to find a ground team but the closest one is over 100 miles away, about a 2 hour drive once the get grouped up. That will take two hours also. Now it is over 12 hours after I crash, the temp. is 10 degrees, the plane is split in two, I am somewhat OK, my passenger is in need of medical help, fx femur, open wrist fracture, facial cuts and internal injuries. She will never make it through the night! My only choice is to walk for help but I am wearing my green flightsuit. A local pilot hears the ELT and flies over me but cannot see me, only if I carried my orange airplane with me. This may sound like fiction, but this is how CAP seems to respond. See why I carry that stuff. I know if I wait, I Will be dead!
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
I am tired of seeing a dozen different uniforms...that defeats the term uniform.
Close your eyes, or encourage people locally to wear the same outfit. If you are not interested in either SUAC.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
Ever been on a UDF team and have people think you are the police...
Yes, and while I will correct anyone who asks, and identify myself properly when required, any assumptions like that are not my problem, and likely help the operation.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
...or tried to find a ground team in the field in BDUs?
No problem, since all GTM's are required to wear bright orange vests, finding them in the woods is usually pretty simple.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
The AF really doesn't want us to look like them,
Please cite a quotation from any credible source (who has authority in the matter) who has said that publicly.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
Most of our members are overweight, hair is too long etc. and frankly we act un professional and do not respect the core values of our military.
Please post the statistics you used to make this assertion. Also, if we are all a bunch of fat, unprofessional, hippies, perhaps its time to look elsewhere to spend your free time. I would hate to get our stink on you.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
If we responded to war the same way we respond to missions, today (July 4th) would just be another work day for us under the Queen.
I would suggest you log off here and spend some time at the library with books about the Revolutionary war. A large number of our troops were untrained, unkempt, volunteers with little training, and no special uniform. We seem to have done fairly well.
Frankly, from someone with 30+ years in, this is a pretty random, silly post. One only needs to look to the US Navy for more uniform combinations then we have, and they seem to be doing pretty well.
Quote from: Eclipse on July 04, 2007, 08:59:19 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
I am tired of seeing a dozen different uniforms...that defeats the term uniform.
Close your eyes, or encourage people locally to wear the same outfit. If you are not interested in either SUAC.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
Ever been on a UDF team and have people think you are the police...
Yes, and while I will correct anyone who asks, and identify myself properly when required, any assumptions like that are not my problem, and likely help the operation. Hope they don't shoot first and ask questions later.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
...or tried to find a ground team in the field in BDUs?
No problem, since all GTM's are required to wear bright orange vests, finding them in the woods is usually pretty simple.
Not in the fall with al the amber color, more is better, a vest will not cut it!
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
The AF really doesn't want us to look like them,
Please cite a quotation from any credible source (who has authority in the matter) who has said that publicly. Actions speak volumes, why do we have "distinctive" devices, so the real knows we are not the real. The USAF is the source.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
Most of our members are overweight, hair is too long etc. and frankly we act un professional and do not respect the core values of our military.
Please post the statistics you used to make this assertion. Also, if we are all a bunch of fat, unprofessional, hippies, perhaps its time to look elsewhere to spend your free time. I would hate to get our stink on you.
Again, look at any SAREX, wing conference ect. You can't spot them?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
If we responded to war the same way we respond to missions, today (July 4th) would just be another work day for us under the Queen.
I would suggest you log off here and spend some time at the library with books about the Revolutionary war.
A large number of our troops were untrained, unkempt, volunteers with little training, and no special uniform. We seem to have done fairly well. And yes, they fought hard with little pay, or rations, poor training, uniforms and so on. And they did this in the freezing cold, at night and died for what would be their county. Our folks today would not get off their butts at night in the cold if the were to lose any sleep (not all but most)
Frankly, from someone with 30+ years in, this is a pretty random, silly post. One only needs to look to the US Navy for more uniform combinations then we have, and they seem to be doing pretty well.
Why are so many offended by trying to be more visable and maybe safer? Ever looked for a needle in a haystack? Have you ever found a survivor and asked them what color they wished they were wearing?
Tags - MIKE
^^ so what are you trying to say? ???
You should read the whole thread??? ;) I say lets get back to the basics, if we want to be Air Force, grooming and weight are going to cause a loss of membership...that would put us back to the days of the 80's and prior.
Have just the AF style uniforms, not all these others to please and meet their needs. I really thinks an orange flight suit and orange shirt in the field makes sense, the flightsuit was authorized in the past. But I would give that up if we were truly uniform. Second, act like the military, take orders and follow them, make sacrifices so others may live. Too many people are in it for the rank or ribbons. At one time we didn't get maintenance money for aircraft that we flew, we did for the love of flying and helping others. Our core values were better than, now we just sit around (like now) and whine!
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 09:37:20 PM
I say lets get back to the basics, if we want to be Air Force, grooming and weight are going to cause a loss of membership...that would put us back to the days of the 80's and prior.
You're joking, right? "If we want to be Air Force," as you say, we need to hie ourselves posthaste to our nearest Air Force recruiter and sign on Uncle Sam's dotted line. Do six weeks at Lackland AFB and you'll be all the Air Force you can handle. And it's patently silly to suggest it's acceptable to lose a large chunk of your membership at a time when we're already hemorrhaging members. I joined CAP in 1981 and was somewhat overweight then; by the standards you seem to endorse I'd never have been able to join.
Quote
Have just the AF style uniforms, not all these others to please and meet their needs.
Once again, if you want to have a kit of nothing but AF uniforms, I can provide you with the toll-free number whereby you can find your nearest Air Force recruiter. Who are
you to say these other uniforms -- mandated because members don't meet AF grooming requirements -- are just to please and meet their needs? CAP regulations require uniforms and they
don't -- and please God never will -- keep otherwise qualified personnel out of the organization simply because they wouldn't be acceptable for AF active duty.
Quote
I really thinks an orange flight suit and orange shirt in the field makes sense, the flightsuit was authorized in the past. But I would give that up if we were truly uniform.
You're losing me here. While I will not disagree that there are a large number of uniform combinations, they are all
uniforms. Now, if you're looking for a uniform appearance at one point or another, that should be the prerogative of the local commander -- let him/her say what the uniform of the day should be, but be mindful that a particular uniform cannot be required unless provided to the member. I somewhat see where you're going; I just think you ought to be in the Air Force if you're looking for that much uniformity.
Quote
Second, act like the military, take orders and follow them, make sacrifices so others may live. Too many people are in it for the rank or ribbons. At one time we didn't get maintenance money for aircraft that we flew, we did for the love of flying and helping others. Our core values were better than, now we just sit around (like now) and whine!
Why just
act like the military? Let's all go to the AF recruiter and
be the military! Then we have no choice but to take orders and follow them! Good grief, man ... you've been in CAP 30 years, you know better than this nonsense!!! As I said to someone else, altruism is a great thing -- but some people have more of it than others. Some people actually do want to get paid for their work, whatever form the payment may take. In CAP, payday is rank and ribbons. That, sir, is a fact that you may not like, but it's there. Would you have these people drummed out of CAP simply because they aren't satisfied with the feel-good-fuzzies one gets for doing things for others? Sheesh.
And we didn't get maintenance money for our aircraft once upon a time ... but maintenance then was only $12 - $14 an hour, too. It simply costs too much to fly for someone else out of one's own pocket. Simple economics.
Jack
For someone who claims to have as much experience as he does, there doesn't seem to be much knowlege of CAP at all. SARpilotNY, perhaps you should go play in someone else's backyard and leave the real work to those of us who are dedicated and educated as to who and what CAP really is. You have a lot of homework to do before you can be a productive member.
With out proper punctuation, it reads to me like: Cap member, 30+ years SAR Pilot, GTM,Mission Support. as if he's new to CAP, but has flown SAR in another Agency for 30+ etc.
and tell me...what do you want to know? Are you saying all of our members meet grooming and weight standards? That we are part of the Air Force and not a corporation? Why do we need an Air Force uniform? We have non military polo shirts, blazers, aviator shirts and so on. Why do we need the Air Force style uniform? Please inform me!
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 04, 2007, 10:06:59 PM
With out proper punctuation, it reads to me like: Cap member, 30+ years SAR Pilot, GTM,Mission Support. as if he's new to CAP, but has flown SAR in another Agency for 30+ etc.
Just to make it clear...
30+ years CAP
Hold almost all ICS ratings in CAP
I am "carded" for ICS with US Forest Service
Flown SAR for most of those years.
Flown for other Federal, state and local agencies.
"carded" for other governmental agencies.
Seen CAP from the customer side as well as the inside.
Worked for (as in paid0 FD LE EMS as well.
member of a national type one ICS team.
Found a few planes, survivors and elts over the years (bet more that most of you)
Watched the ground go buy from 15 knots at 30 feet and 2oo knots at 1,000 feet on SAR so I think I know what orange vs. green looks like.
Anything else you would like to know?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 10:19:36 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 04, 2007, 10:06:59 PM
With out proper punctuation, it reads to me like: Cap member, 30+ years SAR Pilot, GTM,Mission Support. as if he's new to CAP, but has flown SAR in another Agency for 30+ etc.
Just to make it clear...
30+ years CAP
Hold almost all ICS ratings in CAP
I am "carded" for ICS with US Forest Service
Flown SAR for most of those years.
Flown for other Federal, state and local agencies.
"carded" for other governmental agencies.
Seen CAP from the customer side as well as the inside.
Worked for (as in paid0 FD LE EMS as well.
member of a national type one ICS team.
Found a few planes, survivors and elts over the years (bet more that most of you)
Watched the ground go buy from 15 knots at 30 feet and 2oo knots at 1,000 feet on SAR so I think I know what orange vs. green looks like.
Anything else you would like to know?
Yes, with so much experience, how do you have so little knowlege?
And just what little knowledge are you talking about (again)?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 10:10:58 PM
and tell me...what do you want to know?
Friday night's winning lottery numbers would be nice.
Quote
Are you saying all of our members meet grooming and weight standards?
No. And I'm also saying that our members don't have to. It's not a requirement of membership. Nor should it be.
Quote
That we are part of the Air Force and not a corporation?
We're
both and always have been. Maybe the "corporation" part is being emphasized more now than the "Air Force" part, but ever since its founding as part of the Army Air Corps in 1941, CAP has also been a private, benevolent, non-profit
corporation. Saying we should be one or the other is pointless, because we aren't. We're both.
Quote
Why do we need an Air Force uniform? We have non military polo shirts, blazers, aviator shirts and so on. Why do we need the Air Force style uniform? Please inform me!
Because the Air Force says so. It also says who can wear such uniforms. We have the non-military polo shirts, etc., for those members who don't qualify for the AF uniform.
Really, all of this is obvious, and I don't understand why someone with 30 and more years as a member of CAP would even be asking these questions.
Jack
You seem to think that we are just CAP OR USAF AUX. We are both. You seem to think that the entire Corp. is either fat/fuzzy or Fit for AF AD, I'm not sure, your posts are not coherent on your beliefs. Why don't you look at more of the threads here on CapTalk so you know what we have talked about, before you go spouting off that we don't know what we are talking about. You seem to have the attitude that ONLY you have all the answers, and we- regardless of rank- know nothing. I take offense at that. While I openly admit that there is still tons that I don't know about, I don't disparage others when I'm right.
I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards. My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards. If not...say bye bye. I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us". Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time. Peer pressure? If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran. We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership. Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards. Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 10:50:44 PM
I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards. My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards. If not...say bye bye. I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us". Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time. Peer pressure? If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran. We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership. Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards. Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?
I have a copy of the CAP uniform manual (39-1) dated 1975. Nowhere in that publication does it make mention of weight/height standards. All that is required is maintaining a professional appearance when in uniform. I suppose that means that if you can find a uniform big enough to fit you, you can wear it. (As for grooming, that is covered in great detail.) Prior to 1983's rewrite of 39-1, we were
not required to meet weight standards. I had a Smurf suit, too, and when my tummy didn't look right in AF blues, I wore it.
My real job (one of them, anyway) would turn away someone who looks fat, hairy, and sloppy, too. But I'm somewhat overweight and am very successful at that job. (I'm a television news anchorman, as well as being a middle-school history teacher.)
I disagree that a "small minority" of membership doesn't meet AF standards, but I have no data to back up my assertion. (I'd be interested in any data you have that supports that assertion, by the way.)
But your use of the phrase "lower our standards" puzzles me. Is it more important that a member -- or potential member -- bring necessary skills to the table, or is it more important that they look like an AF recruiting poster, even if they're dumber than a doorknob? If the member is overweight ... or has a neatly trimmed beard ... or longer-than-we-might-like hair ... but has magnificent skills needed in CAP, do we turn that person away because they don't
look like an airman? If we turn such a member away, we've done far worse than lower some arbitrary standard of what they should look like.
The Air Force (and the other branches of the military) have their standards which include what a person looks like. We don't. And I maintain that we shouldn't. Our missions are too necessary -- and are being conducted by far too few people -- for us to be turning anyone away, even if they need their corporate uniforms made by Omar the Tentmaker.
Jack
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 04, 2007, 10:41:36 PM
You seem to think that we are just CAP OR USAF AUX. We are both. You seem to think that the entire Corp. is either fat/fuzzy or Fit for AF AD, I'm not sure, your posts are not coherent on your beliefs. Why don't you look at more of the threads here on CapTalk so you know what we have talked about, before you go spouting off that we don't know what we are talking about. You seem to have the attitude that ONLY you have all the answers, and we- regardless of rank- know nothing. I take offense at that. While I openly admit that there is still tons that I don't know about, I don't disparage others when I'm right.
Well if we are the AF Aux, we should act like it. The topic was to change uniforms, how this evolved into all this other stuff is interesting. Most say we MUST have the Air Force uniform...fine wear it and wear it right. But most seem to think an orange shirt or orange flight suit is awful. Why? I have alway said take the red lights off the fire engine and ambulance and we would lose over half of our rescuers...good, there in it for the wrong reason. Take the guns from the reserves and ditto. Take the Air Force uniform away from CAP and we would lose thousands of members too. I don't think the volunteer fire departments give ribbons everytime an engine company finds a false fire alarm...but we do. The real issue with this topic is to have pride in wearing the Air Force uniform in a way the Air Force members would be proud. Wear it right or not at all. Does the Air Force have an optional uniform to wear if you wear a beard or ponytale (for you guys) No! And at one point we didn't, but caved in when numerous complaints came in from AF bases about our members in AF uniforms. I guess CAP's goal is to please everyone, just like my child's soccer team, everyone is a winner! Wow...that will help getting her through life when she doesn't get that pay raise or job. How much lower will our standards go and to what level? In SAR, how many more lives will be lost because we put our members feelings first before the operational needs of the mission or victims?
This is just like FDNY...their members refused to wear breathing apparatus, nomex pants and gloves for years after they became a National standard...how many firefighter's lost their lives or lungs or skin because the City didn't want to piss off the firefighter's union. That was smart!
Our leaders need to set the RIGHT example. I have seen commanders overweight with a beard...now I think that sends the wrong message to his folks, but it seems most will disagree with me.
How does one discuss things with someone who firmly believes they are right and will not even listen to other points of view?
Jack
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 11:11:10 PM
[The real issue with this topic is to have pride in wearing the Air Force uniform in a way the Air Force members would be proud. Wear it right or not at all. Does the Air Force have an optional uniform to wear if you wear a beard or ponytale (for you guys) No! And at one point we didn't, but caved in when numerous complaints came in from AF bases about our members in AF uniforms.
Okay, one more time.
We are not the Air Force. We are the Air Force Auxiliary. We do not have to meet Air Force standards (well, we do if we want to wear their uniform, but that's
optional.) The Air Force doesn't have to have optional uniforms. If you don't meet their standards, they send you home. We are less geared toward what the individual looks like, and more toward what he/she offers.
I can't believe that after 30 years in CAP you think a person's appearance trumps their abilities. That makes no sense at all.
Jack
Quote from: ColonelJack on July 04, 2007, 10:59:56 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 10:50:44 PM
I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards. My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards. If not...say bye bye. I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us". Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time. Peer pressure? If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran. We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership. Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards. Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?
I have a copy of the CAP uniform manual (39-1) dated 1975. Nowhere in that publication does it make mention of weight/height standards. All that is required is maintaining a professional appearance when in uniform. I suppose that means that if you can find a uniform big enough to fit you, you can wear it. (As for grooming, that is covered in great detail.) Prior to 1983's rewrite of 39-1, we were not required to meet weight standards. I had a Smurf suit, too, and when my tummy didn't look right in AF blues, I wore it.
My real job (one of them, anyway) would turn away someone who looks fat, hairy, and sloppy, too. But I'm somewhat overweight and am very successful at that job. (I'm a television news anchorman, as well as being a middle-school history teacher.)
I disagree that a "small minority" of membership doesn't meet AF standards, but I have no data to back up my assertion. (I'd be interested in any data you have that supports that assertion, by the way.)
But your use of the phrase "lower our standards" puzzles me. Is it more important that a member -- or potential member -- bring necessary skills to the table, or is it more important that they look like an AF recruiting poster, even if they're dumber than a doorknob? If the member is overweight ... or has a neatly trimmed beard ... or longer-than-we-might-like hair ... but has magnificent skills needed in CAP, do we turn that person away because they don't look like an airman? If we turn such a member away, we've done far worse than lower some arbitrary standard of what they should look like.
The Air Force (and the other branches of the military) have their standards which include what a person looks like. We don't. And I maintain that we shouldn't. Our missions are too necessary -- and are being conducted by far too few people -- for us to be turning anyone away, even if they need their corporate uniforms made by Omar the Tentmaker.
Jack
Sorry...I joined before 1975 and I think they didn't make uniforms that were 3XXXl or 54 inch pants and flightsuits in size 60. I know we didn't have huge people and that was in a time when military was disliked, and so was Nixon and short hair meant only one thing...you worked for the government.
Our agency has 1,000 applicants for ever position, requires a college degree, requires prior experience or a 1400 hour academy and we are not the highest paid employer. Than there is the background, zero drug use policy, fitness test, medical and so on. Our oldest recruits have been in their fifties. Even during the dot.com era we had hundreds per position. What drives people to our professions in not pay, the number one reason is job satisfaction! Pay I think was #7 on the list. As I recall the other top ones were job security, heathcare, retirement, job locations, family leave, work week hours...If I didn't say it, somebody would ask. My point is QUALITY, not QUANITY! As an IC, I can run a large scale mission with just a few really good people and a computer (for CAP). For real world a Crown Vic or Suburban with a/c will do. An out of shape, overweight, ailing person is a liability, not an asset in the field, in the air or at a base. No, we don't need everyone. Not even volunteer fire departments take everyone, nor should they. Maybe an explorer post or "Senior" type program with non sworn type status would be a compromise. No rank, distinctive uniform with limited public exposure.
Quote from: ColonelJack on July 04, 2007, 11:27:08 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 11:11:10 PM
[The real issue with this topic is to have pride in wearing the Air Force uniform in a way the Air Force members would be proud. Wear it right or not at all. Does the Air Force have an optional uniform to wear if you wear a beard or ponytale (for you guys) No! And at one point we didn't, but caved in when numerous complaints came in from AF bases about our members in AF uniforms.
Okay, one more time. We are not the Air Force. We are the Air Force Auxiliary. We do not have to meet Air Force standards (well, we do if we want to wear their uniform, but that's optional.) The Air Force doesn't have to have optional uniforms. If you don't meet their standards, they send you home. We are less geared toward what the individual looks like, and more toward what he/she offers.
I can't believe that after 30 years in CAP you think a person's appearance trumps their abilities. That makes no sense at all.
Jack
I have seen members taken by ambulance to the hospital because of their appearance. Safety? Over weight, under hydrated, heat, stress, fatigue. Is one life worth allow us to be out of shape in the field? As far as what he or she offers for many units is numbers, membership dollars, dues and recruiter ribbons. Why do we lose so many of our members after the first year or two? Since we are not the Air Force as you say, than screw the AF style uniform! But that won't happen because we would lose to many members, than due, than membership money and...
Tags. Your reply needs to be outside of the quote tags - MIKE
Quote from: ColonelJack on July 04, 2007, 11:23:13 PM
How does one discuss things with someone who firmly believes they are right and will not even listen to other points of view?
Jack
I have listened to other points of views...but without leadership, the whole uniform as in one has turned into non uniformity.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 11:40:07 PM\I have listened to other points of views...but without leadership, the whole uniform as in one has turned into non uniformity.
And so.....?
The world has not ended. Our membership numbers continue to run along pretty much as they have always done.
A lot of cadets get leadership training. Some get their lives changed.
Some folks get educated about aerospace stuff.
Some folks get their lives saved.
Tell me again, what is the problem we are discussing on our nation's birthday?
Quote from: Ned on July 04, 2007, 11:48:00 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 11:40:07 PM\I have listened to other points of views...but without leadership, the whole uniform as in one has turned into non uniformity.
And so.....?
The world has not ended. Our membership numbers continue to run along pretty much as they have always done.
A lot of cadets get leadership training. Some get their lives changed.
Some folks get educated about aerospace stuff.
Some folks get their lives saved.
Tell me again, what is the problem we are discussing on our nation's birthday?
Ah..perfect, that the orange jumpsuit and scout uniform is ok with you?
No, really.
Laying aside the humor above, what's your beef with the current system?
Obviously a series of compromises between competing factors, but it works.
The system functions.
Nobody really points and laughs at us.
The current uniform system serves the mission.
Changing the way some or all of us dress isn't gonna save any more lives or enhance a cadet's leadership training, will it?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 08:57:52 PM
Its really hard to carry that orange airplane with you after you crash. When I fly for CAP or fly for myself or another agency I carry a 406 beacon, a sat phone, the phone numbers for all the state police agencies so if I do crash and survive, I can increase the chance of making the golden hour for trauma or the golden 24 hours for aircraft accident victims. (plus GPS w/mapping software ) I know if I crash anytime in the late morning and beyond and expect CAP to find me that day is a joke. I know better...lets see, I crash after taking off after sunrise at 8 am in the winter, day time temp 40 degrees, night time 10 degrees. I file a flight plan for a 4 .5 hour flight. I crash at 9am. My 121.5 old fashioned ELT goes off, I am just a mile from a town with an airport. First SARSAT pass goes over at 9:45, second at 11:15 and the AFRCC goes to mission. They call around looking for our alerting officer, the message goes to voice mail since he is in a meeting. Meeting is over at noon...but it is lunch time. He makes a few calls (like ten) and cannot find any IC because they all are at work or won't take the mission. More hits, positive airborne, even the FBO can hear the ELT. Now the FAA is making phone calls to my family because I failed to close my flight plan. It's one in the afternoon, just 3 more hours of daylight. By 2 o'clock the ALNOT is received by the AFRCC. They have an IC but he can't get off work till 4 pm, the mission must wait. Does he give it over to the sheriff??? NO! 4pm the IC leaves work and gets home by 4:30. It is now dark, too late for an aircraft. He tries to find a ground team but the closest one is over 100 miles away, about a 2 hour drive once the get grouped up. That will take two hours also. Now it is over 12 hours after I crash, the temp. is 10 degrees, the plane is split in two, I am somewhat OK, my passenger is in need of medical help, fx femur, open wrist fracture, facial cuts and internal injuries. She will never make it through the night! My only choice is to walk for help but I am wearing my green flightsuit. A local pilot hears the ELT and flies over me but cannot see me, only if I carried my orange airplane with me. This may sound like fiction, but this is how CAP seems to respond. See why I carry that stuff. I know if I wait, I Will be dead!
NEVER does not exist in trauma. There is no difference between the golden hour for a victim of a "standard" trauma and an air crash. Your passenger has fx femur. Is she losing blood? How fast? her wrist fx is open? How fast is she losing blood and do you have the knowledge and skills to apply pressure appropriately? Facial lacerations in and of themselves are not generally fatal. What are her internal injuries? A concussion is an internal injury and so is a lacerated spleen. They have drastically different survivability rates. You have a sat phone, phone numbers out te wazoo, etc...Do you have even basic first aide supplies? Can you keep your passenger warm and dry? Is she in shock? She has quite significant MOI (mechanism of inury) yet you do not mention your injuries. Chances are (this is how traumas are assessed) that if she has those significant MOIs, you have similar ones. One of the things we look for in determining the severity of your injuries is how badly she is hurt. This will give us an idea of the severity of the impact, etc. Sounds to me from her injuries that you might not be walking out unassisted. Also, what are your passengers vital signs? You cannot assess them because you do not list a first aide kit among the items you so wisely carry. Are her cardio-pulmonary functions compromised. What is her BP? Pulse? Rate and quality of respiration? You cannot say she will not live through the night with knowing these things. Given that symptoms of hypothermia can set in at temps as high as 70 degree F, the injuries may be irrelevant because you make no mention of emergency supplies to warm yourselves, take in calories, hydrate, etc. Chances are, with temps of 10 degrees and no significant survival gear like polypro underclothing, etc, you yourself will die from exposure. Also, the Golden Rule of surviving an A/C crash...DO NOT LEAVE THE PLANE.
If you are so anti-SAR and anti-CAP and so down on its abilities to be of use, why on earth have you been flying for CAP for "30+ years." According to you, we are worthless. Join the Boy Scouts. If you feel that ground teams dont have the resources we need, why are you on one? Even your contradictions contradict themselves.
Yep I'd say this one has taken plenty of hits too!
(http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg)
OK doctor...hear are your medical board "flight doctor" test... ;)
NEVER does not exist in trauma. There is no difference between the golden hour for a victim of a "standard" trauma and an air crash. Your passenger has fx femur. Is she losing blood? How fast? Bleeding has stopped, skin ashen grey, cool, clammy. her wrist fx is open? How fast is she losing blood and do you have the knowledge and skills to apply pressure appropriately? I have limited supplies in my aircraft, a 2 seat Diamond. I am too weak and ill trained to provide much of any help. There is no first aid kit, infact we left only with lightweight jackets. No blanket. When the plane crashed (it is white and there is snow on the ground in in the trees) we crashed into the tops of some pines at 65 knots and the aircraft went nose down until it hit the dirt. The cockpit broke into two sections providing little shelter or protection. Facial lacerations in and of themselves are not generally fatal. The eyes are swollen shut, she has numerous broken teeth and it appears her jaw is broken. She is still wedged into her seat and when she breathes, she seems to snore. She keeps coughing up dark red blood...like coffee grounds. What are her internal injuries? It hurts for her to breath, very painful and her chest hurts when she coughs. Her abd. 4 quads are not rigid or but painful. A concussion is an internal injury and so is a lacerated spleen. They have drastically different survivability rates. You have a sat phone, phone numbers out te wazoo, etc... No for this flight I have no sat phone, 406 beacon, just a 121.5 ELT. Remember the passage, this is not "me the prepared pilot". Do you have even basic first aide supplies? NO. Can you keep your passenger warm and dry? Yes, I will give her my windbreaker so it will keep her warm while I hike for help. Is she in shock? I don't know, what is shock? (YES) She has quite significant MOI (mechanism of inury) yet you do not mention your injuries. I can't assess my injuries because I am so upset and dazed. I think I am OK but I am more worried about my passenger, she looks so sick. Yes I hurt when I walk and move, but don't worryabout me...help her! Chances are (this is how traumas are assessed) that if she has those significant MOIs, you have similar ones. One of the things we look for in determining the severity of your injuries is how badly she is hurt. This will give us an idea of the severity of the impact, etc. Sounds to me from her injuries that you might not be walking out unassisted. Also, what are your passengers vital signs? P 120 and weak, skins cool, pale and wet. 8 and labored, you can hear "gargling" when she breathes. Is she going to be OK Doc?? Help her, don't let her die... You cannot assess them because you do not list a first aide kit among the items you so wisely carry. (the a/c comes w/ a supplied f/a kit) Are her cardio-pulmonary functions compromised Yes . What is her BP? Can't tell Pulse? Rate and quality of respiration? You cannot say she will not live through the night with knowing these things. Given that symptoms of hypothermia can set in at temps as high as 70 degree F, the injuries may be irrelevant because you make no mention of emergency supplies to warm yourselves, take in calories, hydrate, etc. No water but snow melt Burrr, no candy bars either. Chances are, with temps of 10 degrees and no significant survival gear like polypro underclothing, etc, you yourself will die from exposure. Also, the Golden Rule of surviving an A/C crash...DO NOT LEAVE THE PLANE. I know, but we crashed almost 8 hours ago and I can't see any more aircraft. I am sure they have no idea where I am. I know my ELT is going, the light is flashing...but still no help. Where are you guys? Its cold and she is getting worse. I am cold and hurt too...I must walk to get help. I can hear traffic in the distance, I will walk to get help. Tell my wife I lover her and the gal in the plane was "just a friend".
If you are so anti-SAR and anti-CAP and so down on its abilities to be of use, why on earth have you been flying for CAP for "30+ years." According to you, we are worthless. Join the Boy Scouts. If you feel that ground teams dont have the resources we need, why are you on one? Even your contradictions contradict themselves.
I do this so I can bring help to a victim or closure to a family. I work with some really great people, they know who they are but I also have people with standard ratings that don't know what a 211 is! Why do I stay, I try to teach what I know to others that want to learn and help my fellow pilots, friends and neighbors...to give back. On a CAP mission, have you or anyone else found a survivor in the middle of the night, injured, cold and scared...if so, you know why I stick around and do it.
Quote from: 2d Lt <NOT SO> Fat but FUZZY on July 05, 2007, 12:51:39 AM
Yep I'd say this one has taken plenty of hits too!
(http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg)
[/quot
I think you have way too much fun. Want to go to Nevada with me to do some fundraising?
Can go back and fix your quote tags in the two previous posts? It is awfully hard to read the way you have it there.. kthxbye.
SARPilot-
I wont quote your whole post and answer it point for point but you have done a good job of quoting a trauma scenario straight out of Brady. Your not consistant enough within one post let alone the thread to make any sense of any of it. You are right though...your passenger/secretary is toast. She has classic upper airway obstruction which would have killed her about 10 hours ago since you have done nothing. She has an upper GI bleed. She is in deep, non-compensating/decompensating shock. Save yourself if you can. Also...if you make it out alive, take a survival course. You dont drink melted snow unless you can heat it since to do so in large quantities not only burns mega calories and worsens your own hypothermia, you may also send youself into shock. Good thing you can hear the cars, cause thats as close as your going to get. Given your self described condition you will be dead in about 30 minutes. Me and the other 23 people you think it takes to carry out a stokes will happily carry your body out (I always carry a body bag in my jump kit). Again, please stay away from any SAR I am on.
Quote from: shorning on July 05, 2007, 01:24:34 AM
Can go back and fix your quote tags in the two previous posts? It is awfully hard to read the way you have it there.. kthxbye.
Sorry...I am all thumbs at times...
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 05, 2007, 01:35:00 AM
SARPilot-
I wont quote your whole post and answer it point for point but you have done a good job of quoting a trauma scenario straight out of Brady. Your not consistant enough within one post let alone the thread to make any sense of any of it. You are right though...your passenger/secretary is toast. She has classic upper airway obstruction which would have killed her about 10 hours ago since you have done nothing. She has an upper GI bleed. She is in deep, non-compensating/decompensating shock. Save yourself if you can. Also...if you make it out alive, take a survival course. You dont drink melted snow unless you can heat it since to do so in large quantities not only burns mega calories and worsens your own hypothermia, you may also send youself into shock. Good thing you can hear the cars, cause thats as close as your going to get. Given your self described condition you will be dead in about 30 minutes. Me and the other 23 people you think it takes to carry out a stokes will happily carry your body out (I always carry a body bag in my jump kit). Again, please stay away from any SAR I am on.
Now your getting the point...little to do about uniforms and VS, but more about an acceptable response time in order to make a save. Point is, the average pilot we look for cannot afford to wait 12 to 24 hours for CAP to respond and help. If that were me, I would take a boy scout, a farmer, even you! ;D I have seen way to many aircrash victims die waiting NEEDLESSLY for CAP to get going. There is a reasonable response time and a ridicules response time. The fashionshow should do little to slow us down but it seems is does. My point is I have seen ICs go back to sleep and sit on a mission that ended up at a crash site, or eat lunch or dinner before calling for resources, I have heard some wings taking over 6 hours to find an IC...is that acceptable or should we pass on the mission?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 01:39:42 AM
Quote from: shorning on July 05, 2007, 01:24:34 AM
Can go back and fix your quote tags in the two previous posts? It is awfully hard to read the way you have it there.. kthxbye.
Sorry...I am all thumbs at times...
And you still have the ability to edit your own posts. People aren't going to read what you write if you make it difficult for them. Want to win people over to your cause? Makes your posts/comments clear.
Quote from: shorning on July 05, 2007, 01:56:32 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 01:39:42 AM
Quote from: shorning on July 05, 2007, 01:24:34 AM
Can go back and fix your quote tags in the two previous posts? It is awfully hard to read the way you have it there.. kthxbye.
Sorry...I am all thumbs at times...
And you still have the ability to edit your own posts. People aren't going to read what you write if you make it difficult for them. Want to win people over to your cause? Makes your posts/comments clear.
gotcha...
Why are people still implying that it is CAP that is waiting excessive lengths of time to start the mission? We have to wait for someone to request us (or convince someone through a backchannel to request us) before we can do anything. The Air Force is the agency responsible for deciding when to start a search mission off an ELT hit. Once they call us, we're out the door ASAP.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 05, 2007, 02:07:11 AM
Why are people still implying that it is CAP that is waiting excessive lengths of time to start the mission? We have to wait for someone to request us (or convince someone through a backchannel to request us) before we can do anything. The Air Force is the agency responsible for deciding when to start a search mission off an ELT hit. Once they call us, we're out the door ASAP.
I am talking about after the AFRCC calls CAP. Not all wings are bad but some do take a lot longer. Read Sar Eval where they can't find resources and suspend the mission. I talked to the AFRCC during a mission where after 6 hours they could not find a CAP IC. They said that's not too unusual.
My Wing probably has about as few ICs as you can have and we always manage to get a mission going within a reasonable period of time. If there is a wing where they can't get an IC in 6 hours they need to replace the Wing Commander with someone who will ensure that the training gets done to have enough ICs on hand to answer the phone at any given time.
Plus, if I was AFRCC and couldn't find an IC in that Wing I'd be calling adjacent Wings and getting them involved. If the first Wing complains I'd tell them T.S. -- pick up your phone and you'll get the mission.
Well, it sounds like our NY Pilot is confused. By his own admission, he has been in a paid profession that enables him to do search/rescue work on the job and pays him for it. Now, If he is paid by the state/county/federal, etc., then they sure have the expectation that he will be there when needed. CAP is a volunteer group that goes above and beyond the roles of your average joe citizen. We are not paid to get our butts out of bed and run out in the woods whenever Ima Lost or Mr. Outta Gas falls out of the sky. We are so much more than that to so many more people. ES is but one of the jobs we have been asked to do. And I say asked and not tasked because again,we are not "professionals" and I don't want any of my brother heroes to get their rear out of shape because I am using the word professionals to separate us as the truly beautiful thing we are, which is volunteers. Now, we do a very "professional" job of what we do. We are one of the largest "air forces" in the world. We don't tear up airplanes, we don't lose cadets in the woods and we don't leave our wounded behind..oops, different scenario, but you do get the drift. If your whole focus in CAP is ES. I feel sorry for you, because with your background, I think you may be an adrenaline junkie, and you know what I am talking about. Try working with the cadet program and see the cadets grow and mature through the program. See these same cadets go to one of the Military Academies. There is more than one way to serve the country and more than one way to make a contribution. I hope that with your opinionated attitude that you have not been in a command position because those under you would suffer unbearably. Most of the responders on this thread have many years of great experience and have tried to respond to you in a collegiate manner, hoping to enlighten you. You asked at one point about the maroon epaulets. If you don't know about them, I am suspect of your tenure and involvement with CAP, as someone with your credentials should know the story by now. A word to the wise, try to use this board to learn something and remember that CAP is not as narrow as you may believe and you can be sure that if you post something on here that is incorrect, someone will catch it.. As usual, JMHO..
Quote from: sparks on July 03, 2007, 04:41:29 PM
One more benefit, no Vanguard participation!
I bet those shorts would really look cool on some of the senior members!
The last time I wore shorts in public some people got upset because I kept getting up from the casket.
Just to set you at ease, the world is safe when I do CAP missions because I am off the clock when I go out from my other job. And NO, I don't get paid... it's called vacation, comp or leave time. Also, I was a cadet long ago earning my Earhart award. Yes I do recall the Maroon shoulder boards and it was to make our uniform distinctive from the Air Force uniform. I guess the issue with the "fashion show" is what is more important... having uniforms with merit badges to get respect or earning the reelect for which the ribbons were earned. I have heard members say once I get my recruiter ribbon I will not recruit another member...and I will recruit a member at any cost. When I joined CAP as a cadet, I was told I would fly airplanes, visit foreign countries and save lives. Wrong reasons??? I have served as a director on wing staff and earn several National recognition for our teams work in operations. Wow...must be hard to believe! When I wear my ribbons, I only wear my Earhart and lifesaving awards. They are the ones that count the most. Just so you don't ask, I could wear a whole bunch more fruit salad.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 03:29:01 AM
Just to set you at ease, the world is safe when I do CAP missions because I am off the clock when I go out from my other job. And NO, I don't get paid... it's called vacation, comp or leave time. Also, I was a cadet long ago earning my Earhart award. Yes I do recall the Maroon shoulder boards and it was to make our uniform distinctive from the Air Force uniform. I guess the issue with the "fashion show" is what is more important... having uniforms with merit badges to get respect or earning the reelect for which the ribbons were earned. I have heard members say once I get my recruiter ribbon I will not recruit another member...and I will recruit a member at any cost. When I joined CAP as a cadet, I was told I would fly airplanes, visit foreign countries and save lives. Wrong reasons??? I have served as a director on wing staff and earn several National recognition for our teams work in operations. Wow...must be hard to believe! When I wear my ribbons, I only wear my Earhart and lifesaving awards. They are the ones that count the most. Just so you don't ask, I could wear a whole bunch more fruit salad.
Actually, the life saving ribbons have less value than the fabric they are made out of. If you are truly devoted to saving lives and you are not an adrenaline or glory hound, I challenge you to wear no ribbons at all. Ever. On any uniform. Wear your ground team badge and that is it. The only ribbon I wear is my CAP Membership ribbon. I didnt have to put my life in danger to get it. Nor do I wear it as some sort of self serving badge of honor. I wear it because along with my EMT insignia is says that I belong to a very special group of people. We may not be PJs or Navy Seals, Army Rangers or Recon Marines. Our missions dont put use sitting behind the scope of a sniper's rifle. But the fine cadets and officers with whom I serve belong to the elite corps of men and women of all ages who have dedicated themselves to the service of their community, their country and their fellow citizens. We go when those citizens need help and we go when our country asks us to provide that help. We go in the middle of the night, in the rain and cold and in the baking sun and stifling heat. We trek through the brush, across miles of open fields, through the mountains and wetlands in every single state in the country for one reason and one reason only: To Serve. The non-ES things we teach cadets teach them leadership and also how to follow leaders. How to take orders and how to give them. How to have confidence that you are the best you can be at what you have given up time and energy and money to train for and to know when to step aside and let someone else take control of a situation because it is their specialty. Though I have not yet had the honor in CAP, I have served as an IC and a ground SAR operator on more than 50 operations in my SAR career thus far and have worked with some of the finest EMS professionals to ever carry a litter, but I can honestly say without any hesitation that the men and women of CAP are without question the finest and most devoted group with which I have ever had the honor to be associated. It can be costly to be involved with CAP, in terms of time, money and just about everything else you care to think of. And though they may not carry a rifle or fly jet fighters, the men and women of CAP are among the best at what they do. I have worked SAR operations all over the United States and in Canada and Mexico and I know from first hand experience, that the SAR community at large considers CAP cadets and officers to be quiet, unpaid professionals who carry out their tasks with dignity and pride. So on this particular Independence Day, where we celebrate our freedom from tyranny and oppression, I say with pride that along with 65,000 of those quiet unpaid professionals, we stand shoulder to shoulder with the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard and USCG Auxiliary, ready to answer the call for help anywhere, any place and at any time. Though we are not solely an ES organization nor a group made up entirely of SAR operators, so much of what we do is done, like our brothers and sisters in the Armed Forces, so that others may live. We are doctors, EMTs, nurses, lawyers, engineers, bankers, retail workers and retired grandparents among so many others. We truly are a special force to be reckoned with and we are among the best in the world at what we do from training our young people to be the leaders of tomorrow, to utilizing our collective skills and knowledge to be the heros of today. For some reason, there are a few among us on this forum who have chosen to speak ill of CAP membership and its service. As for me, Im proud to serve in the Civil Air Patrol and will go anywhere to do anything when my country and my fellow citizens ask me to.
Bravo Zulu to the Officers and Cadets of the Civil Air Patrol....Bravo Zulu and Semper Vigilans!
Hooah!!! and an Uh-RAH!!! to all. To Serve so others may LIVE!!! GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
The great planet earth! I am tired of seeing a dozen different uniforms...that defeats the term uniform. As far as the 39-1, we could make it just a few pages with one utility uniform, dress uniform and flight/field uniform. Since we are not the military, just a private corporation, we really don't need or need to be confused with the military or SWAT. Ever been on a UDF team and have people think you are the police or tried to find a ground team in the field in BDUs? The AF really doesn't want us to look like them, that is what they force us to look different, in fact we already do. Most of our members are overweight, hair is too long etc. and frankly we act un professional and do not respect the core values of our military. If we responded to war the same way we respond to missions, today (July 4th) would just be another work day for us under the Queen.
RTFM. You answered a post not directed at you. Mr. Numbers was the directee of the Q about what planet.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 10:50:44 PM
I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards. My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards. If not...say bye bye. I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us". Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time. Peer pressure? If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran. We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership. Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards. Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?
My oldest copy of the Uni reg goes back to Jan 1968, and there is no mention of weight standards. I joined in 1964, as a cadet, and we had our share of heavy folks even then.
Quote from: SarDragon on July 05, 2007, 05:15:16 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 04, 2007, 10:50:44 PM
I guess I was wrong when before the smurf suits, we only had Air Force uniforms and were required to meet (but seemingly not enforced) weight and grooming standards. My real job still requires us to maintain short hair, weight and fitness standards. If not...say bye bye. I hate it when somebody from another agency comes in with a beard, overweight and long hear and wants to be one of "us". Most of our guys will walk away and he gets the message...most of the time. Peer pressure? If you look professional, dress professional... even a rookie is thought to be at veteran. We have yielded our founding values to accommodate a small minority of our membership. Why did we find it necessary to lower our standards. Again 30 years...I do remember they way things were and again...other that those lotto numbers, what am I missing or should I lower my (our) standards?
My oldest copy of the Uni reg goes back to Jan 1968, and there is no mention of weight standards. I joined in 1964, as a cadet, and we had our share of heavy folks even then.
I call BS...I don't think they had lycra back than. When I was a cadet I thought everyone was old and fat...boy was I wrong. I don't think we were as big back than.
Quote from: SARMedTech on July 05, 2007, 04:24:40 AM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 03:29:01 AM
Just to set you at ease, the world is safe when I do CAP missions because I am off the clock when I go out from my other job. And NO, I don't get paid... it's called vacation, comp or leave time. Also, I was a cadet long ago earning my Earhart award. Yes I do recall the Maroon shoulder boards and it was to make our uniform distinctive from the Air Force uniform. I guess the issue with the "fashion show" is what is more important... having uniforms with merit badges to get respect or earning the reelect for which the ribbons were earned. I have heard members say once I get my recruiter ribbon I will not recruit another member...and I will recruit a member at any cost. When I joined CAP as a cadet, I was told I would fly airplanes, visit foreign countries and save lives. Wrong reasons??? I have served as a director on wing staff and earn several National recognition for our teams work in operations. Wow...must be hard to believe! When I wear my ribbons, I only wear my Earhart and lifesaving awards. They are the ones that count the most. Just so you don't ask, I could wear a whole bunch more fruit salad.
Actually, the life saving ribbons have less value than the fabric they are made out of. If you are truly devoted to saving lives and you are not an adrenaline or glory hound, I challenge you to wear no ribbons at all. Ever. On any uniform. Wear your ground team badge and that is it. The only ribbon I wear is my CAP Membership ribbon. I didn't have to put my life in danger to get it. Nor do I wear it as some sort of self serving badge of honor. I wear it because along with my EMT insignia is says that I belong to a very special group of people. We may not be PJs or Navy Seals, Army Rangers or Recon Marines. Our missions dont put use sitting behind the scope of a sniper's rifle. But the fine cadets and officers with whom I serve belong to the elite corps of men and women of all ages who have dedicated themselves to the service of their community, their country and their fellow citizens. We go when those citizens need help and we go when our country asks us to provide that help. We go in the middle of the night, in the rain and cold and in the baking sun and stifling heat. We trek through the brush, across miles of open fields, through the mountains and wetlands in every single state in the country for one reason and one reason only: To Serve. The non-ES things we teach cadets teach them leadership and also how to follow leaders. How to take orders and how to give them. How to have confidence that you are the best you can be at what you have given up time and energy and money to train for and to know when to step aside and let someone else take control of a situation because it is their specialty. Though I have not yet had the honor in CAP, I have served as an IC and a ground SAR operator on more than 50 operations in my SAR career thus far and have worked with some of the finest EMS professionals to ever carry a litter, but I can honestly say without any hesitation that the men and women of CAP are without question the finest and most devoted group with which I have ever had the honor to be associated. It can be costly to be involved with CAP, in terms of time, money and just about everything else you care to think of. And though they may not carry a rifle or fly jet fighters, the men and women of CAP are among the best at what they do. I have worked SAR operations all over the United States and in Canada and Mexico and I know from first hand experience, that the SAR community at large considers CAP cadets and officers to be quiet, unpaid professionals who carry out their tasks with dignity and pride. So on this particular Independence Day, where we celebrate our freedom from tyranny and oppression, I say with pride that along with 65,000 of those quiet unpaid professionals, we stand shoulder to shoulder with the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard and USCG Auxiliary, ready to answer the call for help anywhere, any place and at any time. Though we are not solely an ES organization nor a group made up entirely of SAR operators, so much of what we do is done, like our brothers and sisters in the Armed Forces, so that others may live. We are doctors, EMTs, nurses, lawyers, engineers, bankers, retail workers and retired grandparents among so many others. We truly are a special force to be reckoned with and we are among the best in the world at what we do from training our young people to be the leaders of tomorrow, to utilizing our collective skills and knowledge to be the heros of today. For some reason, there are a few among us on this forum who have chosen to speak ill of CAP membership and its service. As for me, Im proud to serve in the Civil Air Patrol and will go anywhere to do anything when my country and my fellow citizens ask me to.
Bravo Zulu to the Officers and Cadets of the Civil Air Patrol....Bravo Zulu and Semper Vigilans!
Well I am glad that ribbons have a special meaning to you...that's a good thing. I am sure you earned it and are proud of it. Just for your info, the only time I wear my 2 ribbons is at the Wing conference when the CC requires it.
No ES, Comm, Wings or GT badges ( we don't need no stinkin badges). I am glad you have teams that respond to mission quickly and professionally...that is what I ask for too. The problem again is that many of our wings and members don't respond quickly, maybe we don't have standards nationally but don't tell that to an attorney. I am tired of members using the excuse "we are just volunteers" to expect piss poor performance. Like my example earlier, people do die because we have failed to respond and will continue to do so if our leadership doesn't change it. What this has to do with uniforms??? We wear an Air Force uniform...act like the AF. If not, put on the scout uniform.
Quote from: LtCol White on July 04, 2007, 07:21:14 PM
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 05:09:12 AM
I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them. That would be a great idea. CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops.
Exactly WHAT planet are you from??
Exactly WHAT made you ask, sir?
Quote from: 12211985 on July 05, 2007, 05:45:31 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on July 04, 2007, 07:21:14 PM
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 05:09:12 AM
I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them. That would be a great idea. CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops.
Exactly WHAT planet are you from??
Exactly WHAT made you ask, sir?
Obviously not VULCAN!!!
I think we also need to note that in New York, or at least my part, CAP is NOT called very often or at all.
I am in South Western NY, and I have noticed that CAP is not called. We were not tasked last year during the major flooding in our area to provide aerial support, or assistance on the ground after... We called all the way up to National and they would not task us.
Recently, we've had 3 missing people in the last couple of weeks. no call.. We had a plane go missing.. no call.. I am sure there are a lot more that I am unaware of too. One of those missing people was less than 10 miles from where our plane is hangered. I live less than a mile away with 2 additional pilots being 10 minutes away. We were ready! We had the news within 15 minutes.. no call!
I asked someone about it and this is what the problems is in at least our part of NY.. Can it be expanded to the whole state? We train, we train, we are well trained.. yet no call.
A few reasons:
1. In NYS, all ground searches are conducted by DEC and overseen by the NYSP. (note the story said "wildland search teams have been called .....")
2. NYSP and DEC won't use CAP resources because they don't know or understand our training -- nor are they in the line for contacting the appropriate authorities to actually get us involved.
3. ALL mission requests have to go thru our National Operations Center (NOC) -- which in turn contacts the AF to request a mission authorization andfunding. Historically, the AF hasn't approved missing person searches forreimbursement. So unless the State were to pickup the tab (as a "C"-type mission), we won't get utilized.
4. Most of our membership (i.e. the cadets) won't be allowed on anything run by the NYSP. I've been told, in the past, that troopers are legally responsible for youth "under their guidance". And during a search such as this, the troopers don't want to have to watch our "kids" in addition to the search. (I don't know how true this is -- but I've had it told to me by
Troopers and their supervisors.)
5. Other than 1 or 2 seniors -- most of our members would be a liability in this sort of ground operation. We COULD provide air coverage -- but again #2 and #3 come into play. (It's all about liability coverage, who covers the costs, etc)
Again this seems to be the situation in my part of New York... noticing that SAR Pilot is 'NY'. I would solicit his input if this is what he finds where he is?
Oh sure we get called for Air Shows, Parades, memorial Day flag setting, etc... ANd yest even counter drug.. but I have yet to be called to fly a photo mission, a Search.. blah blah blah...
Why I said all this? I have no idea as it is totally off topic.. I think... 7 pages and what do we have?
Quote from: 12211985 on July 05, 2007, 05:45:31 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on July 04, 2007, 07:21:14 PM
Quote from: 12211985 on July 04, 2007, 05:09:12 AM
I suggest the removal of all American flag patches from CAP BDUs and giving them to soldiers who need them. That would be a great idea. CAP would no longer be contradicting AFI 36-2903, and it would be supporting the troops.
Exactly WHAT planet are you from??
Exactly WHAT made you ask, sir?
Because your posts are far detached from reality. You have very strong opinions and ideas about what CAP should do and how it should be run yet you aren't even a member, as many have pointed out already.
Quote from: 2d Lt <NOT SO> Fat but FUZZY on July 05, 2007, 09:21:38 AM
I think we also need to note that in New York, or at least my part, CAP is NOT called very often or at all.
I am in South Western NY, and I have noticed that CAP is not called. We were not tasked last year during the major flooding in our area to provide aerial support, or assistance on the ground after... We called all the way up to National and they would not task us.
Recently, we've had 3 missing people in the last couple of weeks. no call.. We had a plane go missing.. no call.. I am sure there are a lot more that I am unaware of too. One of those missing people was less than 10 miles from where our plane is hangered. I live less than a mile away with 2 additional pilots being 10 minutes away. We were ready! We had the news within 15 minutes.. no call!
I asked someone about it and this is what the problems is in at least our part of NY.. Can it be expanded to the whole state? We train, we train, we are well trained.. yet no call.
A few reasons:
1. In NYS, all ground searches are conducted by DEC and overseen by the NYSP. (note the story said "wildland search teams have been called .....")
2. NYSP and DEC won't use CAP resources because they don't know or understand our training -- nor are they in the line for contacting the appropriate authorities to actually get us involved.
3. ALL mission requests have to go thru our National Operations Center (NOC) -- which in turn contacts the AF to request a mission authorization andfunding. Historically, the AF hasn't approved missing person searches forreimbursement. So unless the State were to pickup the tab (as a "C"-type mission), we won't get utilized.
4. Most of our membership (i.e. the cadets) won't be allowed on anything run by the NYSP. I've been told, in the past, that troopers are legally responsible for youth "under their guidance". And during a search such as this, the troopers don't want to have to watch our "kids" in addition to the search. (I don't know how true this is -- but I've had it told to me by
Troopers and their supervisors.)
5. Other than 1 or 2 seniors -- most of our members would be a liability in this sort of ground operation. We COULD provide air coverage -- but again #2 and #3 come into play. (It's all about liability coverage, who covers the costs, etc)
Again this seems to be the situation in my part of New York... noticing that SAR Pilot is 'NY'. I would solicit his input if this is what he finds where he is?
Oh sure we get called for Air Shows, Parades, memorial Day flag setting, etc... ANd yest even counter drug.. but I have yet to be called to fly a photo mission, a Search.. blah blah blah...
Why I said all this? I have no idea as it is totally off topic.. I think... 7 pages and what do we have?
Your wing king has an education mission, it would appear.
First... liability. I am always amazed at the numbers of non-lawyers who claim that they can't do something because of "Liability." "Liability" is bureaucrat-speak for "I'm too lazy to research anything, so I'm just going to make up some reason why this won't work."
Liability in CAP is covered in 2 ways. Under federal mobilization (Title 10) we are an instrumentality of the United States. We are covered under the Federal Tort Claims Act. If we break something, Sam will fix it. If we are called up under Title 36, funded by an entity other than the US Govt., then CAP has an insurance policy.
Cadets. We have the same problem with FEMA, they will not allow volunteers under age 18 to participate in any missions. I think this is BS, and working out an agreement with FEMA to permit cadets to work in support roles in disasters (Commo, flight line, etc.) is pretty high up on my "To-Do" list for when I'm the National Commander. In the meantime, I think that MOU's with the state Adjutant General would be a more productive way to go. When the NYSP asks for aviation support from the Guard, the Guard would call CAP. (Unless helicopters were specifically needed.) The Guard has some 17-year old troops, and FEMA doesn't whine about them!
In Oregon, there was this family of Asians, who got lost on a back-road network in rolling terrain. The Sheiff coordinated the search, and ruled out using CAP because he decided that (in his non-pilot opinion) that the terrain was not good for fixed wing aircraft. The family hired a private helicopter charter to fly them over the area, without success. The tragic result was that the father went to get help after a couple of days, and died in the quest. His family was finally found.
Somebody "Google-Earthed" the area. The terrain was rolling hills, with a max. elevation of about 2000 feet MSL. A lot of REAL pilots, including me, looked at that and saw no problem flying over that area. We could have covered that area in a day. The car was found where it had always been... right on the side of a road, clearly visible from the air.
Somebody needs to use that as a "Lesson Learned" when dealing with state and local governments and private SAR agencies, most of whom are staffed by people who have never flown in light aircraft.
CAP wrote the book on air seach techniques. We need to shout that from the rooftops.
While there are a few isolated local officials who "have it in" for CAP for various reasons, both good and bad, I am totally convinced that the major reason we don't get called on missions where we could actually be of service is that the local officials don't understand our capabilities and how to request us.
Our local SO SAR officer is very interested in our training and wants me to put on a presentation for the Sheriff himself. I don't think we're ready for that part, but soon....very soon.
I realize the personal touch is important....but as a first step toward getting the word out about CAP, couldn't National be doing something to build relations with country-wide organizations of county sheriffs, police chiefs, the FBI police academy, state police superintendents -- all these folks have conferences, conventions, workshops....if someone senior briefed them (maybe a CAP officer & an AFRCC experienced USAF officer) it could lay foundations, open doors.....the wing commanders, government relations staffs and local ES folks would no longer have to start from "in 1941 Gill Robb Wilson..."
Quote from: floridacyclist on July 05, 2007, 02:40:58 PM
Our local SO SAR officer is very interested in our training and wants me to put on a presentation for the Sheriff himself. I don't think we're ready for that part, but soon....very soon.
The trouble is, with the Sheriff, you will have to spend most of the briefing telling him what we CAN'T do!
I have been to both coasts and been on both sides of the business. What the sheriff's and states see so often in CAP are the cadets and think of us as an explorer post. Image! We need to change our image! Uniforms again? There was a high profile missing attorney mission in Pheonix last year that made headlines in the news. The picture in the paper of CAP was 5 or 6 cadets drilling infront of a WWII tent. Could we have presented a better image? The sheriff of Maricopa County, Sheriff Joe Apacho reads the same papers we do and what do you think he sees? Those first impressions is what is imprinted in our minds. Once there, hard to forget. I lived in one county where CAP was the prime resource for missing aircraft (as it should be) and is the lead agency under a unified command. That meant we controlled and directed our resources as well as the county and state resources. But it took a lot of hard work to get there and we had to dig ourselves out of a hole that we put ourselves into. It took years of training together to earn their respect. So much of that is image and uniformity!
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 06:59:50 PM
I have been to both coasts and been on both sides of the business. What the sheriff's and states see so often in CAP are the cadets and think of us as an explorer post. Image! We need to change our image! Uniforms again? There was a high profile missing attorney mission in Pheonix last year that made headlines in the news. The picture in the paper of CAP was 5 or 6 cadets drilling infront of a WWII tent. Could we have presented a better image? The sheriff of Maricopa County, Sheriff Joe Apacho reads the same papers we do and what do you think he sees? Those first impressions is what is imprinted in our minds. Once there, hard to forget. I lived in one county where CAP was the prime resource for missing aircraft (as it should be) and is the lead agency under a unified command. That meant we controlled and directed our resources as well as the county and state resources. But it took a lot of hard work to get there and we had to dig ourselves out of a hole that we put ourselves into. It took years of training together to earn their respect. So much of that is image and uniformity!
But you think that boy scout type uniforms would help this image?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 06:59:50 PM
I have been to both coasts and been on both sides of the business. What the sheriff's and states see so often in CAP are the cadets and think of us as an explorer post. Image! We need to change our image! Uniforms again? There was a high profile missing attorney mission in Pheonix last year that made headlines in the news. The picture in the paper of CAP was 5 or 6 cadets drilling infront of a WWII tent. Could we have presented a better image? The sheriff of Maricopa County, Sheriff Joe Apacho reads the same papers we do and what do you think he sees? Those first impressions is what is imprinted in our minds. Once there, hard to forget. I lived in one county where CAP was the prime resource for missing aircraft (as it should be) and is the lead agency under a unified command. That meant we controlled and directed our resources as well as the county and state resources. But it took a lot of hard work to get there and we had to dig ourselves out of a hole that we put ourselves into. It took years of training together to earn their respect. So much of that is image and uniformity!
So you would further confuse the issue by creating yet another set of uniforms? Using Boy Scout uniforms would impress upon the local poplulaces that we're the Boy Scouts, who don't do SAR in any way shape or form. They would
never call us then.
I don't know why you want CAP to look like someone else. That is exactly what you want. If I wanted to do Boy Scout work, I'd join the Boy Scouts. But I don't.
This idea is completely ridiculous. You say that uniformity would be established by converting to someone elses uniform. It wouldn't be. You'd still have the old and the new and far more variations to keep up with. It wouldn't solve any problem, it would just exacerbate the present one.
And you can't roll out a new uniform, and tell everyone that they can't wear the old ones anymore. It doesn't work that way. If you think it could, you're deluded.
And a question: What makes you think that a different uniform would solve any problems of unprofessional appearance? It would be same old problems dressed up in new clothes. A drastic change in uniforms will
not solve the problems you cite. You can argue, but it would be a lost cause before you start.
Quote from: RiverAux on July 05, 2007, 01:31:25 PM
While there are a few isolated local officials who "have it in" for CAP for various reasons, both good and bad, I am totally convinced that the major reason we don't get called on missions where we could actually be of service is that the local officials don't understand our capabilities and how to request us.
From what I've seen, this isn't a matter of just viewpoint, it's fact. I think I'm gonna try to work that angle from where I am. It wouldn't hurt to have missions more often. Not to mention the public exposure would only help on the recruiting side.
Green and Khaki is a common color combo, SO, USFS and more. I really don't care as long as it looks right, professional and uniform.
The image we create by a sharp troops is the focus. Ever heard of CAP being called the "rag tag army"? If we look and act professional, maybe we would garner more respect and "business".
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 07:53:21 PM
If we look and act professional, maybe we would garner more respect and "business".
Bingo. That's the issue. The clothes you wear are irrelevant. I drive pizza for a living, and most people can tell by looking at me that I'm military. It's about attention to detail, a neat appearance, and bearing. If people know what I am by the way I present myself, then the clothes don't matter.
Present a professional appearance yourself. It will rub off. Challenge others to look as good as you do. It makes a difference.
As for green and khaki, they may be common colors, but they are
not Civil Air Patrol colors. Noone will look at a green and khaki uniform and think CAP. They will think Boy Scouts, they will think Forestry, they will think Park Ranger. And that throws everything we are out the door.
I am in my early fifties, my annual required fitness test puts me in my late 20's...compare that to some of our members that are younger, heavier, smoke and pull an oxygen tank around a mission base. Image...
My point again is how others see CAP and than I wonder why they may not take us seriously. Can I get a large cheese?
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 08:22:09 PM
I am in my early fifties, my annual required fitness test puts me in my late 20's...compare that to some of our members that are younger, heavier, smoke and pull an oxygen tank around a mission base. Image...
My point again is how others see CAP and than I wonder why they may not take us seriously. Can I get a large cheese?
Changing the uniform will not solve that. They will still be heavier, smoking, and pulling an oxygen tank around. The problem is human nature, not the clothes. Yes, people will see some members of CAP like that.
The example you set will raise the standard. If people meet you first, and you present a professional image, they will start expecting that standard. They will also question the lazier, heavier smokers on why they don't meet that standard. It's peer pressure, but it's in a positive aspect.
Lest anyone forget....
We are the ones that rescue the scouts when they get lost!!!
Let them have their own uniform, it makes it that much easier to find them!!!
CAP already has servicable uniforms, we just have too many on the Senior side.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 07:53:21 PM
Green and Khaki is a common color combo, SO, USFS and more. I really don't care as long as it looks right, professional and uniform.
The image we create by a sharp troops is the focus. Ever heard of CAP being called the "rag tag army"? If we look and act professional, maybe we would garner more respect and "business".
You think changing uniforms is the solution? Why not just enforce the current uniform regulations more and have folks wearing it properly? Do u think they wouldn't look like a rag tag boy scout, SO, or USFS? Its not WHAT is being worn but HOW its being worn.
The answer is to stay in the USAF uniforms and ensure compliance with regulations. Then you have the professional image combined with the USAF look.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 06:59:50 PM
What the sheriff's and states see so often in CAP are the cadets and think of us as an explorer post. Image! We need to change our image! Uniforms again? There was a high profile missing attorney mission in Pheonix last year that made headlines in the news. The picture in the paper of CAP was 5 or 6 cadets drilling infront of a WWII tent. Could we have presented a better image?
Ahhh cadet bashing! :o
That'll help.
Hide those pesky kids somewhere so we can get on with The Saving of Lives.
After all, ES is the One True Mission, and should be the One True Image we present to world.
::)
Yep.. I wood shur luv to swich two a boyscout uniform!
(http://www.pinetreeweb.com/eer3a-uniform.jpg)
Dang.. dem's gals wood be flocking two me!
Quote from: Ned on July 06, 2007, 12:03:14 AM
After all, ES is the One True Mission
The charter changed? ??? Last I checked, we had three
equal missions.
Quote from: LtCol White on July 05, 2007, 09:28:55 PM
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 05, 2007, 07:53:21 PM
Green and Khaki is a common color combo, SO, USFS and more. I really don't care as long as it looks right, professional and uniform.
The image we create by a sharp troops is the focus. Ever heard of CAP being called the "rag tag army"? If we look and act professional, maybe we would garner more respect and "business".
You think changing uniforms is the solution? Why not just enforce the current uniform regulations more and have folks wearing it properly? Do u think they wouldn't look like a rag tag boy scout, SO, or USFS? Its not WHAT is being worn but HOW its being worn.
The answer is to stay in the USAF uniforms and ensure compliance with regulations. Then you have the professional image combined with the USAF look.
Now you get it...enforce the standards...but that takes leadership and as fuzy says, examples.
Quote from: 2d Lt <NOT SO> Fat but FUZZY on July 06, 2007, 12:06:08 AM
Yep.. I wood shur luv to swich two a boyscout uniform!
(http://www.pinetreeweb.com/eer3a-uniform.jpg)
Dang.. dem's gals wood be flocking two me!
Now that's hot! I have great legs that I could show off!
We have solved the Summer uniform, how about one for Winter?
Ready. . . . Aim. . . . . . . . . . wait for it. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 06, 2007, 03:27:10 AM
Now you get it...enforce the standards...but that takes leadership and as fuzy says, examples.
One thing I learned a long time ago was that you didn't have to be in command to be a leader. I'm literally the only senior member male in my unit that wears the military uniforms. And considering that most of our cadets are male, I have to set a standard. Which I do.
From what I've heard around our wing, our cadets tend to be the best in appearance whenever they show up. Not sound like I'm tooting my own horn, but I am partly responsible for that. And I'm just the personnel officer, I'm not even really active with the cadet side of the house.
Quote from: SARPilotNY on July 06, 2007, 03:29:25 AM
We have solved the Summer uniform, how about one for Winter?
I thought that was the winter uniform?!?
(says the guy living in Hawaii... ;D)
Quote from: RogueLeader on July 06, 2007, 02:00:22 AM
Quote from: Ned on July 06, 2007, 12:03:14 AM
After all, ES is the One True Mission
The charter changed? ??? Last I checked, we had three equal missions.
I think Ned was being sarcastic toward SARPilotNY, who was making comments about our appearance again.
Jack
Well tell me the BSA does not have the same issues with uniforms...
Fat and Fuzzy, Fat, Fat &Fuzzy, Fit, FAT & FUZZY!!
(http://www.elmiracap.com/images/stories//news%20items/100_3160%20(Small).jpg)
Yeah let's switch to BSA uniforms!!! NOT!
The BSA apparently has trouble deciding on color and cut of trousers as well, so its not just us with our greys.
First of all, if we removed all of the BSA nonsense with SARPilot has inserted and so many of us (including myself) have allowed ourselves to get baited by, this thread might actually go somewhere and have a chance at being productive. We recently heard alot of clearing of throats after MG Pineda's letter about civility (or else!) and then we have someone who comes out of nowhere, gives us alot of WIWAC nonsense and suddenly we are all at it again.. Here are just some facts, along with some very simple solutions.
1. The greys can look pretty rag-tag when you look down a row of officers. In my experience so far, no because they are not well kept or tattered but because of the differences in dye-lots, manufacturers, cloths and colors. These are the moments where people follow the regulations, but so many dont stop to see where the regs fall short. No significant mention of cut (can be plane, pleated, straight-front, etc) and I have found no mention of shade other than GREY so we end up with salt-and-pepper business slacks, grey work trousers, grey EMT pants with the gear loops and cargo pockets, and then of course the shirts....Why dont we all get together and say, here is the manufacturer we will use for the trousers, this one for shirts and this one for shoes. The big problem is that when NHQ makes the decisions for us, but when we are left to make them ourselves, well...not a very good result. Its a simple fix. We arent trying to agree on a cure for cancer, just a uniform. Lets get a single manufacturer that can supply both the fit members that chose to wear greys and the larger members who chose them as their option.
2. Same with the white/blues...If Corporate insists on one uniform for the fat and fuzzy and one for the just fuzzy, then everything comes from one supplier that can supply for all who chose the corporates. In fact, since what I hear is that the Greys are the far preferred Corporate uniform anyway, lets just get rid of the Blues. I know they are the "fit but fuzzy" crowds of saying i could wear AF Blues but chose to make a statement with my facial hair, but, meh, on that. Greys it is and out with the Corporate Semi-Blues altogether. There, now for the AF-looking, yet not AF style we have one uniform, from on supplier than can work for all who dont wear the Mama Blues. Also, lets allow the flight cap or service cap for the Greys. Stupid not to, no reason for it.
3. The next major problem seems to be grooming. OK. Here we can easily solve the problem by taking a page directly from the USCGAUX...if you chose to wear a mustache or beard, it can only have "x" amount of bulk, "x" amount of length, etc. We keep the "no further than the corner of the mouth" rule for mustaches and no "eccentricities". If you wish to be eccentric, wear the blazer, here again with a single color, cut, etc of trouser, a single tie, etc. Whats the problem folks? Before you all tell me what it is, Ill save you the trouble of telling me the problem...there isnt one. Grooming standards will be "XYZ" and any other variances will wear the blazer combo. There.
It would be silly to comment on SARPilots disruptive and long winded disturbances of late and then create one of my own. What we have here is a tempest in a tea-pot. We can have the various uniform combinations for Corporate vs. Airforce, eliminating some of the sillier ones. If some of us are in Grey Corporates, then we all are. If we take a National vote (notice we dont have to involve NHQ for the most part, we just get a mandate from the Membership (gasp, what an idea) and do it).
My dear friends, let us no longer live in fear of NHQ. Let a consensus of Wing leadership based on the majority input from Squadron plus Group be the rule, thats what we submit to National. We have leadership (and not just TP) who sometimes have trouble making decisions and when they do they seem to have trouble making decisions that make sense. So lets help them out. Lets tell them what we think is acceptable. I would issue a challenge for the various brass lower than NHQ to send me their hard and fast decisions which we can then send up the chain, but I know we cant get that kind of cohesive action...YET. Here we need to listen to SARPilot a little. Believe me, it hurts me more to say it than it does most of you to hear it. Let this past Independence Day serve as the "fire bell in the night" signaling the 21st century of CAP. If there is a patch, badge, insignia that the majority of us dont like, the we issue a "People's Mandate" and our own phase out date, and after that they disappear. Since there are very few National REQUIREMENTS about what badges will be worn, which ones will not, etc. lets us decide for ourselves.
In those photos of the 50 mission crushers, we saw some uniform variations. But what was the big thing you also saw in the photo, if you look past the greased hair, and the haze of cigarette smoke and the jaunty tilts of time. You saw unity. I tell you something...If the CAP of the Iraq War era were given the kinds of extraordinarily important taskings as our WWII counterparts, you would see whats really important. Cohesion would come about all of its own accord. Squadron pride would be restored as Squadrons used their best artists to develop Squadron patches and perhaps even names and wore them with pride rather than just looking on it as one more thing that had to be done, one more monotonous task. Lets set a date for such patches and starting using them. The reason we feel that it all comes down on high from Wing and NHQ is largely because we let it. Those 50 mission crushers "the people, not the caps) have a great deal to teach us. They were tasked with operations that they could see had patriotic importance. When things like Katrina and 9/11 happen, we should all be clamoring to NHQ to get us taskings from the Wing level in the effected areas and we should be flocking to help. I was a part of the "immediate recovery" for both that horrible act of terror and the devistation of nature in the Gulf Coast. Lets make use of those members who pay dues but dont do much else. Lets create a national website for the Triple Zero Ghost Squadrons and let them have their own taskings. We can use their dues and if they wish to do nothing else, they can serve as members who have put in their time or are meeting the level of committment that makes them comfortable. So lets put them outside stores and malls on the Anniversary of the founding of CAP and let them collect donations and set up tables explaining to people what CAP does. Membership would serge as a whole new generation of pilots, ground pounders, etc learned that CAP is what those of us involved already know it is...a viable, important part not only of an Amazing American Culture, but also a living breathing entity that serves when necessity calls. Lets establish a National Blood Drive in cooperation with the Red Cross, with whom we work already. A week of CAP members giving blood and then CAP pilots flying it all over the country to where its needed most. Lets let the public see is in our blue coveralls adopting a highway and helping to make America more beautiful and safe by picking up dangerous and unsightly roadside trash and running a National CAP Recycling Campaign to raise money. Imagine what would happen if each of the 65,000 members picked up one bag of aluminum cans and other recyclables and then gave the funds to their Squadron. Imagine how that would empower the Squadron to get those things they need and in getting more, newer and better equipment...in establishing a Uniform Fund, where once a year, those who could not afford it got a set of uniforms. Thats us supporting our own and establishing an esprit d'corps. Im telling you, this spirit of unity would spread and we would soon have on our hands a CAP the likes of which had never been seen. Leaner, meaner, better equipped because not so many members had to go broke in order to volunteer. Imagine a ready-room in each Squadron's HQ...perhaps, nothing more than a closet at first, with a rack of radios that meet at least our minimum standards. Stocked 24 gear that members just had to grab and go. A wrack of field uniforms. Donated flash-lights and other refurbished equipment, donated by membership who no longer needs the items and an American Public who knows what the Civil Air Patrol is just as they know the United States Marine Corps and the Army and the Navy and Air Force and Coast Guard. Lets end this petty bickering over who changed what name without the authorization and be proud to be America's Civil Air Patrol and to let this new name, if only on name tapes, reflect our sense of pride in the service that we provide for our country. I promise you, we can find a new sense of purpose. A team that goes out to shut off ELTs the middle of the night is just as important as a SAR operation. Ground pounders are just as proud as pilots as we all work together to do what we were chartered by Congress to do in the first place...To serve at the pleasure and necessity of the American People. Lets end all this petty bickering and infighting. If you have issues with National Command, the time will come when those who weaken us will be gone. But lets not let the public we serve see us fighting over uniforms and bashing our commanders with hateful nicknames and angry cartoons. We need to be Semper Vigilans within and without....within to make ourselves better able to serve and without to be better, more well equipped public servants when the call comes. Lets start a new era of vigilance where good enough is no longer the status quo and where each year we get stronger and better equipped to handle to OUR Mission for America. Semper Vigilans and thanks for listening.
What is sad about the "group" boy scout picture is that could have been a shot of a CAP ground team, or squadron or mission base, almost anything but an encampment. My whole goal here is to bring to light what I see all the time throughout the nation when I see CAP. My partners at work know I am a member and wonder why the USAF Aux looks so rag tag. It's embarrassing at times to me and it is hard to hold my head up in pride.
CAP cadets have few choices in uniforms and no choices in grooming and fitness, do we worry that we are losing cadets? The armed forces have standards, help members that fall away from them and than can them. Enough of that, I think everyone knows my feelings. Just one thought about that great boy scouts shot, if your first impression of CAP as a newly elected sheriff that was thinking about using CAP as part of your counties disaster plan or SAR plan...what would it be? Would you take CAP seriously? If not, what would it take to change that impression? Just for fun...just respond to these two questions. I think that is why CAP is not seen as a resource in much of the country.
PS. SAR MED TECH...good reply above..well said!
Hey Fuzzy...next time I am in your town..lets go have a beer...your funny! Great pic, I am the first one on the right. ;)
Hey SARPilot, Don't know if I want to have a beer with you if you are the one on the right.. I am the one on the left and I don't wear hats indoors! talk about offending me with uniform blunders!
;)
I am just on the NY/ PA border, near Binghamton NY.. Plenty of watering holes out this way.. You just have to get past the pickup trucks with the deer on the hoods and the shotgun in the back window!
Just take your D@$% hat off!
OK
I think some people took SARPILOTNY way too seriously but a good point is brought up. It is said that we are worried that we will loose senior members if we were to enforce grooming and weight standards. I am sure this would be a true statement. But why are we not also worried about losing cadets that cannot or desire not to meet the grooming and weight standards? They are CAP's future!
Quote from: calguy on July 27, 2007, 03:08:25 PM
I think some people took SARPILOTNY way too seriously but a good point is brought up. It is said that we are worried that we will loose senior members if we were to enforce grooming and weight standards. I am sure this would be a true statement. But why are we not also worried about losing cadets that cannot or desire not to meet the grooming and weight standards? They are CAP's future!
Not sure what you're talking about. Cadets are encouraged as a part of the PT component of the Cadet Program to engage in a healthy lifestyle and develop a lifelong habit of physical fitness.
Cadets who don't meet the weight and/or grooming standards can still wear certain CAP corporate/CAP distinctive uniforms and participate in the program.
So how are we discounting any cadets?
How far can a cadet progress upwards if the cannot wear the USAF uniform? Can you get through an encampment without wearing one?
Quote from: calguy on July 27, 2007, 10:33:17 PM
How far can a cadet progress upwards if the cannot wear the USAF uniform? Can you get through an encampment without wearing one?
If the cadink's under 18, weight standards do not apply. 18 and up, and the cadink either must meet weight standards to continue with the AF-style uniform. Otherwise, it's TPU time.
I love my boy Scout uniform. Been involved since 1972
Arrow of Light, Commisioner Woodbadge etc.
I loved my Aspen Search and Rescue Nomex uniform
I have been in CAP 6 months
ESO ITO Finance and Technician rated in Comms as Communications officer.
I prefer the Corporate Uniform as we are a 501C3 non profit corporation
I Like the ARMY Woodland Battle Dress Uniform I have several and meet weight standards. It is nice the AIR force lets us use them but they are being discontinued soon.
However I will be ordering Blue BDU as soon as MY Woodland cammo's wear out.
IN search and rescue Bright Colors are helpfult to the person being rescued
Quote from: James on September 04, 2007, 08:38:23 PM
I love my boy Scout uniform. Been involved since 1972
Arrow of Light, Commisioner Woodbadge etc.
I loved my Aspen Search and Rescue Nomex uniform
I have been in CAP 6 months
ESO ITO Finance and Technician rated in Comms as Communications officer.
I prefer the Corporate Uniform as we are a 501C3 non profit corporation
I Like the ARMY Woodland Battle Dress Uniform I have several and meet weight standards. It is nice the AIR force lets us use them but they are being discontinued soon.
However I will be ordering Blue BDU as soon as MY Woodland cammo's wear out.
IN search and rescue Bright Colors are helpfult to the person being rescued
Have you seen the BBDUs "in person"as it were? If made by Propper, they are a shade of blue that company calls "LAPD Blue." Hardly a bright color. In fact, from a distance they appear black in almost all light conditions, especially low light.
They still contrast much better than mottled green, brown, and black
Quote from: floridacyclist on September 05, 2007, 02:21:35 AM
They still contrast much better than mottled green, brown, and black
Do they contrast better than an orange vest?
Quote from: floridacyclist on September 05, 2007, 02:21:35 AM
They still contrast much better than mottled green, brown, and black
With all do respect Captain, no they dont. I just bought yet another bunch of khaki BDUs for another organization and they contrast much better than either blue or camo, particularly in low light situations and especially when the foliage over head it starting to turn colors. In that scenario, even the blues will blend into ground cover.
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