Yes, I mean this seriously, despite my well-known dislike for said combo.
(http://www.qmuniforms.com/photos/styles/JC258_1500_3.JPG)
No epaulettes, but maybe metal grade on one collar and CAP cutout on another?
http://www.qmuniforms.com/red-kap-slash-pocket-jacket (http://www.qmuniforms.com/red-kap-slash-pocket-jacket)
Obviously not meant as a service dress coat, but as a rough equivalent to the lightweight blue AF jacket.
The site describes the colour as "charcoal," which I think is supposed to be the descriptive colour for our rank slides and nameplate(?).
..but the equivalent uniform does not use grade on the lightweight jacket. So why should this one?
Yes, it does. Grade insignia on gray epaulets are worn on the AF-style lightweight blue jacket.
Quote from: a2capt on April 22, 2014, 07:41:46 PM
..but the equivalent uniform does not use grade on the lightweight jacket. So why should this one?
Um...what?
I left out the word "metal", as in we don't use metal grade anywhere else.
Nice sleeve pocket. Very pump jockey....wait...you may be on to something...reminds me of an old Texaco commercial on the Ed Sullivan show....we could adopt that uniform. We'd have a hat, at least.
Ah...Bach...
I still think we need a "like" button for these posts. Love the M*A*S*H* references.
Quote from: THRAWN on April 22, 2014, 08:06:32 PM
Nice sleeve pocket. Very pump jockey....wait...you may be on to something...reminds me of an old Texaco commercial on the Ed Sullivan show....we could adopt that uniform. We'd have a hat, at least.
"you can trust your car, to the man who wears the star!"
Our grey kit is not charcoal, which is a bit darker. I'm not sure if there's even a color name officially assigned. I would call it light grey, based on the examples provided by the KB.
So what's wrong with the current Black A2 jacket that is currently authorized?
Quote from: PHall on April 23, 2014, 02:32:54 AM
So what's wrong with the current Black A2 jacket that is currently authorized?
It's expensive, and it's also too warm for many areas of the country. I can only wear my leather jackets in the middle of winter, at night.
Quote from: a2capt on April 22, 2014, 07:58:11 PM
I left out the word "metal", as in we don't use metal grade anywhere else.
Well, other than the BBDU field cap.
I'd like to see these authorized with the G/W combo. Army issue, just a black version of the AF-style lightweight jacket. And doesn't look like you're a gas station attendant.
(http://www.uniforms-4u.com/productimages/11487/big-u-us-army-enlisted-black-windbreaker-asu-class-b-15221.jpg)
I am under the impression that the Army did away with the black windbreaker. But what do I know, I have been retired almost 27 years.
Quote from: Mustang on April 23, 2014, 05:57:45 AM
I'd like to see these authorized with the G/W combo. Army issue, just a black version of the AF-style lightweight jacket. And doesn't look like you're a gas station attendant.
(http://www.uniforms-4u.com/productimages/11487/big-u-us-army-enlisted-black-windbreaker-asu-class-b-15221.jpg)
Why would "authorization" be needed?
To wear grade insignia.
Quote from: capmaj on April 23, 2014, 12:00:24 PM
Quote from: Mustang on April 23, 2014, 05:57:45 AM
I'd like to see these authorized with the G/W combo. Army issue, just a black version of the AF-style lightweight jacket. And doesn't look like you're a gas station attendant.
(http://www.uniforms-4u.com/productimages/11487/big-u-us-army-enlisted-black-windbreaker-asu-class-b-15221.jpg)
Why would "authorization" be needed?
It used to be, but got caught in the CSU debacle.
Quote from: arajca on April 23, 2014, 01:48:26 PM
Quote from: capmaj on April 23, 2014, 12:00:24 PM
Quote from: Mustang on April 23, 2014, 05:57:45 AM
I'd like to see these authorized with the G/W combo. Army issue, just a black version of the AF-style lightweight jacket. And doesn't look like you're a gas station attendant.
(http://www.uniforms-4u.com/productimages/11487/big-u-us-army-enlisted-black-windbreaker-asu-class-b-15221.jpg)
Why would "authorization" be needed?
It used to be, but got caught in the CSU debacle.
It's a nice lightweight jacket. Just have to watch that you don't grab the Members Only jacket next to it on the way out the door...
Quote from: THRAWN on April 23, 2014, 02:32:54 PM
It's a nice lightweight jacket. Just have to watch that you don't grab the Members Only jacket next to it on the way out the door...
(scans 39-1 to see if Parachute Pants are authorized...)
Quote from: Panache on April 23, 2014, 04:52:54 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on April 23, 2014, 02:32:54 PM
It's a nice lightweight jacket. Just have to watch that you don't grab the Members Only jacket next to it on the way out the door...
(scans 39-1 to see if Parachute Pants are authorized...)
It's right beside the square-end knit tie, just above Docksiders.
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 23, 2014, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: Panache on April 23, 2014, 04:52:54 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on April 23, 2014, 02:32:54 PM
It's a nice lightweight jacket. Just have to watch that you don't grab the Members Only jacket next to it on the way out the door...
(scans 39-1 to see if Parachute Pants are authorized...)
It's right beside the square-end knit tie, just above Docksiders.
Yeah, I found it. Unfortunately, it tells me to STOP! Hammer time!
Now..
Put the needle on the record ..
When the song beats go like this ...
Pump Up the Volume!
I think this post has drifted so much I see red shift.
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on April 23, 2014, 05:22:39 PM
I think this post has drifted so much I see red shift.
Another uniform thread...drifted off topic? That's two in one year.
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 23, 2014, 05:23:40 PM
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on April 23, 2014, 05:22:39 PM
I think this post has drifted so much I see red shift.
Another uniform thread...drifted off topic? That's two in one year.
Just to get us back on task...how will it look with ABUs?
Quote from: THRAWN on April 23, 2014, 05:43:58 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 23, 2014, 05:23:40 PM
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on April 23, 2014, 05:22:39 PM
I think this post has drifted so much I see red shift.
Another uniform thread...drifted off topic? That's two in one year.
Just to get us back on task...how will it look with ABUs?
OFF WITH HIS HEAD! KILL HIM WITH FIRE!
Quote from: bosshawk on April 23, 2014, 07:06:16 AM
I am under the impression that the Army did away with the black windbreaker. But what do I know, I have been retired almost 27 years.
Still available in the AAFES Army uniform catalog. Enlisted wear the jacket with collar (identical to the AF lightweight jacket except in black); officers wear the jacket with knit collar (identical to the AF general officer lightweight jacket except for the color). I'll have to pay a visit to the Redstone Arsenal MCSS to see the finer differences, if any.
I looked in 39-1 today, maybe for only the second or third time in more than a decade. I should feel guilty. . . Anyway, I was checking to see if the metal (encased in plastic) captain's bars I've been wearing were really OK for my blue nomex (not purchased from the approved source, by the way). . .Been following the herd in my wing; in the pictures, it looks like they are probably metal. The other CAP guys I know wear them on their sage green, or blue, nomex. Then again, we all wear baseball caps with rank insignia embrodered on them, and someone here told me that wasn't correct. . .
Anyway, in looking around, I stumbled across a passage that says we can wear a turtleneck and boots with the blue blazer/gray slack combination! Like a 1960's private-eye, David Jansen/James Garner kind of look. . .sweet! Gotta find somewhere to buy a white turtleneck (mock is OK, it says).
Quote from: THRAWN on April 23, 2014, 02:32:54 PM
Quote from: arajca on April 23, 2014, 01:48:26 PM
Quote from: capmaj on April 23, 2014, 12:00:24 PM
Quote from: Mustang on April 23, 2014, 05:57:45 AM
I'd like to see these authorized with the G/W combo. Army issue, just a black version of the AF-style lightweight jacket. And doesn't look like you're a gas station attendant.
(http://www.uniforms-4u.com/productimages/11487/big-u-us-army-enlisted-black-windbreaker-asu-class-b-15221.jpg)
Why would "authorization" be needed?
It used to be, but got caught in the CSU debacle.
It's a nice lightweight jacket. Just have to watch that you don't grab the Members Only jacket next to it on the way out the door...
Well, if it were
approved, you'd just have to aim for the one with rank insignia on it...
Though the chair of the uniform committee disagrees with me, I'd like to see the aviator shirt combo stick to a monochrome color scheme of white/gray/black. The AF blue necktie is specified when long sleeves are worn, and I think it kind of clashes. Black tie, black belt, black shoes, black jacket would look better and it's, well, coordinated. (And no matching of Garanimals tags required!)
Quote from: SunDog on April 23, 2014, 09:43:21 PMThen again, we all wear baseball caps with rank insignia embrodered on them, and someone here told me that wasn't correct. . .
Bright on dark blue cloth is allowed on the blue nomex flightsuit and utility jumpsuit.
Grade is not authorized on any baseball caps.
FWIW, the plastic encased insignia is all plastic. The bit inside is not metal, as much as it looks so.
Ah, so, that explains the "plastic" terminology then, thanks. . . the baseball caps have embridered sqdn numbers, with the wing "pre-fix", and the rank is emboidered in the appropriate color thread.
I recall the caps didn't have rank initially, but when replacement time came around, someone asked for rank when ordering, and the caps came delivered that way. Again, I just followed the herd. They appear universal, more or less, in my wing.
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on April 23, 2014, 05:22:39 PM
I think this post has drifted so much I see red shift.
I am so stealing this for future use.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 23, 2014, 10:18:46 PM
Quote from: SunDog on April 23, 2014, 09:43:21 PMThen again, we all wear baseball caps with rank insignia embrodered on them, and someone here told me that wasn't correct. . .
Bright on dark blue cloth is allowed on the blue nomex flightsuit and utility jumpsuit.
As is the plastic-encased grade insignia (page 78, current 39-1). The blue nomex flightsuit and regular blue jumpsuit have the option of either the embroidered full-color grade insignia on navy blue cloth (ICL for 39-1, dated May 2012, 3.b.8) or plastic-encased grade insignia. The sage green flightsuit can only use the plastic-encased grade insignia (page 34, current 39-1).
Quote
Grade is not authorized on any baseball caps.
Indeed. Wing Kings have a lot of leeway for "customizing" their unit's baseball caps for their wings (PAWG is the most obvious example) but grade insignia on the baseball caps is specifically verboten in the regs.
Indeed. Wing Kings have a lot of leeway for "customizing" their unit's baseball caps for their wings (PAWG is the most obvious example) but grade insignia on the baseball caps is specifically verboten in the regs.
[/quote]
Actually, If you on an Ranger Team, you can have Rank on your Orange Ball Caps.
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 24, 2014, 01:43:57 PM
Actually, If you on an Ranger Team, you can have Rank on your Orange Ball Caps.
Got a cite for that?
Quote from: Devil Doc on April 24, 2014, 01:43:57 PM
Actually, If you on an Ranger Team, you can have Rank on your Orange Ball Caps.
Pretty sure that's while taking part at Hawk Mountain only.
Quote3. Added. Hawk Mountain Ranger School Staff will wear the orange baseball hat with the keystone emblem affixed to the front in place of standard unit numbers. The Keystone will be 2 ¼ to 2 ½ inches in height and will be placed ½ inch above the visor, centered on the front. The black keystone will be worn by all Hawk Mountain Staff members who have earned the achievement of Instructor or Expert Ranger. The red keystone, with black border will be worn by all other Hawk Mountain Staff members. These hats are to be worn only at Hawk Mountain Ranger School Events. Hawk Mountain Ranger School Students will wear the orange baseball hat with their respective unit number or the HMRS logo.
4. Added. PA Wing Encampment or School staff will wear the orange baseball hat with ENC, CLS, LDC, PFE or GFE in place of the standard unit numbers. The placement and presentation of these numbers will be the same as those prescribed for flights, and squadrons.
5. Added. In accordance with "Changes to CAPM 39-1" (25 January 2008, NHQ) grade insignia is not authorized for wear with the CAP baseball hat. EXCEPTION: Senior and cadet metal grade insignia is to be worn with the Hawk Mountain Keystone baseball hat, as authorized by NHQ.
7. Added. IAW CAPM 39-1, Table 1-3, Line 2, any PA Wing distinctive headgear will be worn within the boundaries of the Pennsylvania Wing only, and my not be worn to activities outside of Pennsylvania unless otherwise approved by the Wing Commander where the activity is taking place.
Source: http://pawg.cap.gov/sites/default/files/pubs/PAWG-Supp-39-1-Dec11.pdf (http://pawg.cap.gov/sites/default/files/pubs/PAWG-Supp-39-1-Dec11.pdf)
What happens in PAWG, stays in PAWG. Where it belongs. ;-)
..and yes, that initial jacket referenced, is basically a service line type item. Gas station, fuel truck, etc. As is the shirt under it. The material it's made of even reflects that more. I'd prefer a little better look than that.
But more than that, right now, near -anything- is already 'approved' to be used. Now, if you are wanting to add specific items to it.. I see where you're going. :)
I thought I heard an Birdie state that the Orange Ball caps will have an Metal Rank insignia and our Last name Embroidered. Oh well, I dont have my rank on my hat, but I do have my Last name embroidered on the Strap. Anywho......
Im the last person that cares about wearing rank, Ive been a 1st Lt for awhile now, Im just now getting to changing the ranks on my BDUs
Quote from: Mustang on April 23, 2014, 10:12:14 PM
Though the chair of the uniform committee disagrees with me, I'd like to see the aviator shirt combo stick to a monochrome color scheme of white/gray/black.
It is that very "monochrome-ness" that I dislike. I feel like an old photo negative wearing grey, white and black.
As to the Texaco allusions...when I was a little kid, and Texaco was more widespread throughout the country (the only place I've seen them in decades is Canada), my (birth) father worked at a Texaco station, working his way up from pump jockey to head mechanic. I
never saw him wear a jacket like those referenced. All I ever saw him wear were very dark-green shirt and pants with the Texaco logo above one pocket and his first name above the other, and never a hat.
But to "stir the stink" a bit...I also found this jacket (French Air Force surplus) - and it has epaulettes. It looks somewhere between blue and grey.
(http://simage1.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/4/421264_ts.jpg)
Of course, the "blue-haters" on the corporatist side would probably think "EEK! It'll tick off the Air Force!"
That one actually looks .. somewhat decent. $20 bucks.. even for casual use.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 24, 2014, 08:15:28 PM
Quote from: Mustang on April 23, 2014, 10:12:14 PM
Though the chair of the uniform committee disagrees with me, I'd like to see the aviator shirt combo stick to a monochrome color scheme of white/gray/black.
It is that very "monochrome-ness" that I dislike. I feel like an old photo negative wearing grey, white and black.
As opposed to the blue on blue on blue on blue of the AF uniform?
Quote from: Mustang on April 26, 2014, 01:21:49 AM
As opposed to the blue on blue on blue on blue of the AF uniform?
Blue is at least a colour. Grey and white, in my view (and I am not colourblind) are not.
Also, with very, very few exceptions (the Swiss Air Force comes to mind), air forces throughout the world wear some shade of blue or blue-grey.
Nor is black, even though I admittedly wear a lot of it (no, I'm not related to Johnny Cash).
Well, we're not an Air Force, so what Air Forces around the world wear is not really relevant to CAP. That said, while I like blue and wouldn't have a problem with a blue corporate uniform, those with decision authority have chosen grey and I'm fine with that too.
I have no problem with gray trousers, but I do with the fact that medium gray is too vague a description. I also hate that because different types and styles of pants can be worn with this uniform, that it barely resembles a uniform at all. I know this is done to give the membership flexibility on acquiring these and that cost is a factor too. But a real uniform is, after all, uniformed.
I also agree with many that a service coat/jacket is much needed to bring this uniform on par with the AF-style counterpart. And the hat... well, if it was up to me, none of the service uniforms would have hats, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. Many members would like a flight cap equivalent and I think it's only fair.
Why not give the members what they want? With a long phase-in/phase-out and by making some of these optional, no one would be adversely affected, but many members would be happy with the changes.
White is actually the colour of the combination of all colours of the visible spectrum.
And black is the colour of my love's true hair...
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 27, 2014, 11:13:42 PM
Well, we're not an Air Force, so what Air Forces around the world wear is not really relevant to CAP. That said, while I like blue and wouldn't have a problem with a blue corporate uniform, those with decision authority have chosen grey and I'm fine with that too.
I have no problem with gray trousers, but I do with the fact that medium gray is too vague a description. I also hate that because different types and styles of pants can be worn with this uniform, that it barely resembles a uniform at all. I know this is done to give the membership flexibility on acquiring these and that cost is a factor too. But a real uniform is, after all, uniformed.
I also agree with many that a service coat/jacket is much needed to bring this uniform on par with the AF-style counterpart. And the hat... well, if it was up to me, none of the service uniforms would have hats, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. Many members would like a flight cap equivalent and I think it's only fair.
Why not give the members what they want? With a long phase-in/phase-out and by making some of these optional, no one would be adversely affected, but many members would be happy with the changes.
+1 Jacket or no jacket.......if we are going to have a white and grey combo......get a supplier.....and tell everyone "this white shirt and these grey pants".
We keep the polo combination...but change it to a polo and khaki pants.
Kill the blazer combo, kill the G/W and start over. No CSU, either.
Polo plus khaki cargo pants or the current tactical pants for work, plain khaki for others.
Light blue shirt with epaulets with dark blue or black pants. Grey epaulet sleeves all around. CAP ribbons, badges and wings. Blue AF light jacket with grey epaulet sleeves.
Business suit for...business and semi formal applications. Dark blue or black with light blue shirt and tie. CAP tie tack. No more blazer combo nametag.
Blue BDU for those choosing to wear a BDU in the field.
Tuxedo for formal occasions.
Is it really this hard? Or am I being overly simplistic? >:D
You haven't factored in the USAF being perfectly happy to accept the effort of more then 1/2 the adult
membership, but does not want, in any way, there to be any confusion that those same members
are even remotely connected to them.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 28, 2014, 02:27:15 AM
You haven't factored in the USAF being perfectly happy to accept the effort of more then 1/2 the adult
membership, but does not want, in any way, there to be any confusion that those same members
are even remotely connected to them.
Due to the stupidity of some of the adult members in the past. Remember, we've brought these restrictions upon ourselves by our own actions.
Quote from: PHall on April 28, 2014, 03:21:59 AM
Due to the stupidity of some of the adult members in the past. Remember, we've brought these restrictions upon ourselves by our own actions.
Those stupid actions generally fall into two categories:
1. The true ones - which happened so long ago that I doubt anyone currently in the Air Force remembers them any more.
2. Ones that are, at best, apocryphal - Airman Snuffy whining to the Air Force Times that "Some CAP guy chewed me out for not saluting them!"
Neither of which are valid grounds, as I see it, for continuing the restrictions on us today, in 2014.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 28, 2014, 02:27:15 AM
You haven't factored in the USAF being perfectly happy to accept the effort of more then 1/2 the adult
membership, but does not want, in any way, there to be any confusion that those same members
are even remotely connected to them.
Unfortunately true to a large degree. >:(
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 28, 2014, 02:12:41 AM
Kill the blazer combo, kill the G/W and start over. No CSU, either.
Agreed.
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 28, 2014, 02:12:41 AM
Polo plus khaki cargo pants or the current tactical pants for work, plain khaki for others.
Respectful dissent. BBDU's and blue flight/utility suit.
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 28, 2014, 02:12:41 AM
Light blue shirt with epaulets with dark blue or black pants. Grey epaulet sleeves all around. CAP ribbons, badges and wings. Blue AF light jacket with grey epaulet sleeves.
Qualified agreement. I have suggested blue Van Heusen shirt (same cut as the white shirt) with airline-type grey trousers, in standardised shade of grey as our insignia. Dark-blue MA-1 and/or L2B for warmer weather. No AF items.
OPTIONAL dark-blue civilian airline sweater.
Blue-grey garrison cap.
(http://victoriancollections.net.au/media/collectors/4f729f6897f83e0308601725/items/4f72a67697f83e0308602945/4f72a67797f83e0308602947/VictorianCollections-large.jpg)
RAAF garrison cap shown as
SUGGESTED model.
(http://www.garffshirts.com/ProductImages/13V5000-400_AVIATOR_form.50.jpg)
(http://www.armynavysales.com/assets/item/large/DSCN1374.JPG)
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 28, 2014, 02:12:41 AM
Business suit for...business and semi formal applications. Dark blue or black with light blue shirt and tie. CAP tie tack. No more blazer combo nametag.
Partial agreement and respectful dissent. Airline-type dark blue-grey uniform jacket (minus sleeve rings). Retain black blazer nametag for grade recognition. CAP ribbons/badges/miniature medals (depending on occasion) allowed.
(http://www.airlineuniforms.net/images/Pictures/pilotjackets/pjacketvisa100.jpg)
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 28, 2014, 02:12:41 AM
Tuxedo for formal occasions.
Respectful dissent. See above with miniature medals and perhaps dark blue bow tie.
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 28, 2014, 02:12:41 AM
Is it really this hard?
The only hard part is getting even general agreement from membership...akin to herding rattlesnakes.
Quote from: Eclipse on April 27, 2014, 11:20:40 PM
White is actually the colour of the combination of all colours of the visible spectrum.
And black is the colour of my love's true hair...
I never recognised Noah Webster anyway. Drove my teachers mad in high school. >:D
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 27, 2014, 11:13:42 PM
Well, we're not an Air Force, so what Air Forces around the world wear is not really relevant to CAP. That said, while I like blue and wouldn't have a problem with a blue corporate uniform, those with decision authority have chosen grey and I'm fine with that too.
The grey is based, from what I know, on the uniforms worn by the IACE. It is not really the grey itself that
I object to...it's having a white shirt
with it, which is monochrome, shows dirt very easily and is
not slimming to our less svelte members.
The Royal Observer Corps had no flying role (unlike us), making them "not an air force," but had a similar relationship to the RAF as us...and they wore the same blue-grey as the RAF with modified insignia.
(http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608016121962433125&pid=15.1)
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 27, 2014, 11:13:42 PM
I have no problem with gray trousers, but I do with the fact that medium gray is too vague a description. I also hate that because different types and styles of pants can be worn with this uniform, that it barely resembles a uniform at all. I know this is done to give the membership flexibility on acquiring these and that cost is a factor too. But a real uniform is, after all, uniformed.
Stated well!
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 27, 2014, 11:13:42 PM
I also agree with many that a service coat/jacket is much needed to bring this uniform on par with the AF-style counterpart. And the hat... well, if it was up to me, none of the service uniforms would have hats, but that's irrelevant to the discussion. Many members would like a flight cap equivalent and I think it's only fair.
Also stated well!
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 27, 2014, 11:13:42 PM
Why not give the members what they want? With a long phase-in/phase-out and by making some of these optional, no one would be adversely affected, but many members would be happy with the changes.
Three in a row stated well! :clap:
However, I do not think the powers-that-be Higher Up are terribly interested as to what the members want viz. uniforms.
We have a National Uniform Committee. They are the ones who receive and evaluate suggestions involving uniforms and make recommendations to the National Commander.
If you feel this strongly about this then write up a proposal and send it up the chain.
Or you can sit here and complain.
Your call.
Quote from: PHall on April 29, 2014, 02:22:23 AM
We have a National Uniform Committee. They are the ones who receive and evaluate suggestions involving uniforms and make recommendations to the National Commander.
If you feel this strongly about this then write up a proposal and send it up the chain.
Or you can sit here and complain.
Your call.
This would be a valid suggestion if the National Uniform Committee actually gave a flying darn as to what the general membership wanted. Their actions have shown that they don't.
Quote from: Panache on April 29, 2014, 03:38:23 AM
Quote from: PHall on April 29, 2014, 02:22:23 AM
We have a National Uniform Committee. They are the ones who receive and evaluate suggestions involving uniforms and make recommendations to the National Commander.
If you feel this strongly about this then write up a proposal and send it up the chain.
Or you can sit here and complain.
Your call.
This would be a valid suggestion if the National Uniform Committee actually gave a flying darn as to what the general membership wanted. Their actions have shown that they don't.
The problem isn't necessarily with the NUC. It's the process the a suggestion needs to go through to get to the NUC. Every level of command between the member and the NUC has to approve/forward the suggestion. Some will give it serious thought and make a thoughtful decision, some will figure it's not their idea so it doesn't deserve approval, and some will just ignore it. The problem is there is no way to track suggestions through the process.
Quote from: arajca on April 29, 2014, 04:09:19 AM
The problem isn't necessarily with the NUC. It's the process the a suggestion needs to go through to get to the NUC.
Be that as it may be, the system is broken. The end result is that a uniform suggestion from 1st Lt. Average from Podunk Composite Squadron is never going to be seen or acted upon, regardless of how good an idea it is.
Just look at the ABU thing. Many cadet organizations use the current uniforms, with all the talk of ABUs and the effort put forth, the general assembly session from last July, and then NHQ puts out an edict that says "We're not going to do that."
It's almost pretty clear the 39-1 re-write was holding back text for it.
If they were to have done it, I'd see 10 years of use, and if they're on the ball in the beginning, they won't have this problem if the AF switches again.
Quote from: PHall on April 29, 2014, 02:22:23 AM
We have a National Uniform Committee. They are the ones who receive and evaluate suggestions involving uniforms and make recommendations to the National Commander.
If you feel this strongly about this then write up a proposal and send it up the chain.
Or you can sit here and complain.
Your call.
As a Patron member I really don't have a chain... so how do I send them a proposal?
Quote from: shuman14 on April 29, 2014, 07:56:17 AM
As a Patron member I really don't have a chain... so how do I send them a proposal?
As patron members are not authorized a uniform, there was probably not much thought put into developing a uniform proposal process for patrons.
Perhaps you can find an active member to be your surrogate for submitting a proposal.
Happened to come across this link. Tell me what's wrong with this picture...
http://www.aircadetonline.com/flash_site/news_cap_andy_sumner3.htm (http://www.aircadetonline.com/flash_site/news_cap_andy_sumner3.htm)
Quote from: Panache on April 29, 2014, 01:35:29 PM
Happened to come across this link. Tell me what's wrong with this picture...
http://www.aircadetonline.com/flash_site/news_cap_andy_sumner3.htm (http://www.aircadetonline.com/flash_site/news_cap_andy_sumner3.htm)
Well, since the page was last updated in Feb 2011, my guess is that he is wearing the CSU as it was configured at the time.
Did the CSU allow grade slides without the "CAP" marking?
Quote from: Panache on April 29, 2014, 01:54:56 PM
Did the CSU allow grade slides without the "CAP" marking?
Yes.
Quote from: Panache on April 29, 2014, 01:35:29 PM
Happened to come across this link. Tell me what's wrong with this picture...
http://www.aircadetonline.com/flash_site/news_cap_andy_sumner3.htm (http://www.aircadetonline.com/flash_site/news_cap_andy_sumner3.htm)
This made me more than curious as I thought there was a piece in regs that you aren't allowed to wear the uniform in a foreign country without permission?
Then again, the regs may have changed between then and now; NHQ (politely) made the current situation clear when I visited my old squadron in 2012.
(Edited to correct the wording).
Further to my last...
Major Sumner is a regular contributor to CAPTALK, and was kind enough to welcome a fellow ex-pat both to CAPTALK and to the CAP.
Given enough time I may well be able to locate his 'handle'.
Well, I stand corrected then!
Quote from: Panache on April 29, 2014, 03:38:23 AM
This would be a valid suggestion if the National Uniform Committee actually gave a flying darn as to what the general membership wanted. Their actions have shown that they don't.
I find myself in agreement.
As some know, I have actually had a well-prepared, on-paper proposal ready, which I started soon after the CSU was first scrapped. I have done many kinds of writing, from technical writing to transcription to advertising, and, honestly, I think I use the English language fairly well on-paper. My proposal is not "the grey uniform sucks vacuum and the AF is too pigheaded to let everyone wear theirs so I've got the perfect solution."
I have not forwarded it for the exact reasons that arajca named.
Also, given that the new 39-1 will soon (?) be a reality, is there any point?
As we know, people Higher Up look at this site now and again, and this is a flawed-but-serviceable forum for them to see what is on our minds.
Whether they
care is another matter entirely, of course.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 29, 2014, 08:51:34 PM
Quote from: Panache on April 29, 2014, 03:38:23 AM
This would be a valid suggestion if the National Uniform Committee actually gave a flying darn as to what the general membership wanted. Their actions have shown that they don't.
I find myself in agreement.
As some know, I have actually had a well-prepared, on-paper proposal ready, which I started soon after the CSU was first scrapped. I have done many kinds of writing, from technical writing to transcription to advertising, and, honestly, I think I use the English language fairly well on-paper. My proposal is not "the grey uniform sucks vacuum and the AF is too pigheaded to let everyone wear theirs so I've got the perfect solution."
I have not forwarded it for the exact reasons that arajca named.
Also, given that the new 39-1 will soon (?) be a reality, is there any point?
As we know, people Higher Up look at this site now and again, and this is a flawed-but-serviceable forum for them to see what is on our minds.
Whether they care is another matter entirely, of course. (emphasis [bold] mine)
That's the problem there. Regardless of the reasons, you can't say the system doesn't work if you haven't even tried it. And even if you did sometime in the past, things change and new people take over leadership positions, so you should give them a chance to act.
Now, if you did in fact submit your proposal, what would be an indication that the system works? Your proposal may be reviewed and simply rejected. That doesn't mean the system doesn't work. It just mean they either didn't like your idea or just couldn't act on it.
Regardless, you're not even giving the system a chance. You've already decided that it doesn't work.
If the powers-that-be do not like my ideas, I can live with that.
What I would like is an explanation why, and at least an acknowledgement that someone outside of my Squadron CC actually looked at it.
Quote from: CyBorg on May 02, 2014, 02:22:38 AM
If the powers-that-be do not like my ideas, I can live with that.
What I would like is an explanation why, and at least an acknowledgement that someone outside of my Squadron CC actually looked at it.
I think that's fair. If I were you, I would submit the proposal and see what happens.
I admit that the current process doesn't seem efficient. With all the layers of approval within the chain of command, most uniform proposals don't make it to National. That said, if you submit it, you have a chance, even if small. But if you don't submit it, you have no chance. Again, I would take the chance.
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on April 29, 2014, 12:42:45 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on April 29, 2014, 07:56:17 AM
As a Patron member I really don't have a chain... so how do I send them a proposal?
As patron members are not authorized a uniform, there was probably not much thought put into developing a uniform proposal process for patrons.
Perhaps you can find an active member to be your surrogate for submitting a proposal.
Would it be inappropriate to send it to them directly?
Quote from: CyBorg on May 02, 2014, 02:22:38 AM
If the powers-that-be do not like my ideas, I can live with that.
What I would like is an explanation why, and at least an acknowledgement that someone outside of my Squadron CC actually looked at it.
I'd like to see your proposal, can you post it or email it to me?
I would like to see it too.
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 12:28:16 AM
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on April 29, 2014, 12:42:45 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on April 29, 2014, 07:56:17 AM
As a Patron member I really don't have a chain... so how do I send them a proposal?
As patron members are not authorized a uniform, there was probably not much thought put into developing a uniform proposal process for patrons.
Perhaps you can find an active member to be your surrogate for submitting a proposal.
Would it be inappropriate to send it to them directly?
Yes. There is a procedure and it is even covered in the manual.
Quote from: PHall on May 05, 2014, 02:25:16 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 12:28:16 AM
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on April 29, 2014, 12:42:45 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on April 29, 2014, 07:56:17 AM
As a Patron member I really don't have a chain... so how do I send them a proposal?
As patron members are not authorized a uniform, there was probably not much thought put into developing a uniform proposal process for patrons.
Perhaps you can find an active member to be your surrogate for submitting a proposal.
Would it be inappropriate to send it to them directly?
Yes. There is a procedure and it is even covered in the manual.
Not the most CAP smart person here, can you post a link to the manual?
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
Not the most CAP smart person here, can you post a link to the manual?
Telling us we are broke, how to fix it and now asking for help. How ironic.
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 05, 2014, 04:21:21 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
Not the most CAP smart person here, can you post a link to the manual?
Telling us we are broke, how to fix it and now asking for help. How ironic.
Sounds like we've had a Major Malfunction here. ;)
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 05, 2014, 04:21:21 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
Not the most CAP smart person here, can you post a link to the manual?
Telling us we are broke, how to fix it and now asking for help. How ironic.
So when Ford puts out a 2015 model to replace the 2014 model is it because it's broke... or because it's new and improved? ;)
That being said if you're cool with an uniform caste system that degrades a segment of the membership based solely on physical appearance versus actual work performance... then you're not broke at all. ::)
Quote from: SarDragon on May 05, 2014, 05:05:55 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 05, 2014, 04:21:21 AM
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
Not the most CAP smart person here, can you post a link to the manual?
Telling us we are broke, how to fix it and now asking for help. How ironic.
Sounds like we've had a Major Malfunction here. ;)
;D
Story from the field: I was at encampment, wielding a camera for the weekend. Were at Great Lakes, so no photography, we only have our people and we need to turn in the photos for approval. I drove down to graduation parking lot, beat the formation, and wanted to take pictures. I'm about to start doing so, when I hear from behind "HEY! No Photography!". I turn around, see our XO down the road. Make an open hand gesture of " WTF, I'm one of you". He replies "didn't recognize you!". I take my pictures, see a blue uniform coming my way. Lower the camera...its the assitant TAC commander, my buddy, from my squadron....he didn't recognize me with a camera either. Even our own can't tell the G/WS as a uniform from a little distance.
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 12:29:21 AM
I'd like to see your proposal, can you post it or email it to me?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2014, 12:32:27 AM
I would like to see it too.
I am currently updating it (from an old machine). I hope both you gentlemen can import an Office 97 document.
Quote from: CyBorg on May 07, 2014, 05:24:40 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 12:29:21 AM
I'd like to see your proposal, can you post it or email it to me?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2014, 12:32:27 AM
I would like to see it too.
I am currently updating it (from an old machine). I hope both you gentlemen can import an Office 97 document.
Make it three?
Quote from: CyBorg on May 07, 2014, 05:24:40 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 12:29:21 AM
I'd like to see your proposal, can you post it or email it to me?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2014, 12:32:27 AM
I would like to see it too.
I am currently updating it (from an old machine). I hope both you gentlemen can import an Office 97 document.
I think so... go ahead and send it.
Quote from: CyBorg on April 28, 2014, 07:34:46 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on April 28, 2014, 02:12:41 AM
Business suit for...business and semi formal applications. Dark blue or black with light blue shirt and tie. CAP tie tack. No more blazer combo nametag.
Partial agreement and respectful dissent. Airline-type dark blue-grey uniform jacket (minus sleeve rings). Retain black blazer nametag for grade recognition. CAP ribbons/badges/miniature medals (depending on occasion) allowed.
(http://www.airlineuniforms.net/images/Pictures/pilotjackets/pjacketvisa100.jpg)
Merrill? Is that you? ;D
Quote from: CyBorg on May 07, 2014, 05:24:40 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on May 05, 2014, 12:29:21 AM
I'd like to see your proposal, can you post it or email it to me?
Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 05, 2014, 12:32:27 AM
I would like to see it too.
I am currently updating it (from an old machine). I hope both you gentlemen can import an Office 97 document.
I'd like to take a gander at it as well.
CyBorg ..
I would also like to see your proposal.
Thank you...
Jack
Alright then, here, in all its "glory"..... :o
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: CyBorg on May 08, 2014, 01:21:08 PM
Alright then, here, in all its "glory"..... :o
Swap out all metal grade, make headgear same device as blues, and wow, that would look good.
Looks good; only thing I would change is the cut of the double-breasted jacket. It would look better if a Navy officer/CPO jacket cut is used (all jacket buttons are in line, not as shown in the illustration). For formal occasions, a civilian black tuxedo (with notch lapels), white formal shirt and allowing CAP-only miniature medals, badges and the 'dinner plate'.
Specify flat front trousers, no cuffed hems.
Pretty good, but if I may make some suggestions:
1) While I like the idea of metal grade on the cap, I doubt that the Powers-That-Be would. Frankly, I'm surprised we're allowed to have metal grade on the BBDU cap.
2) Make the flight cap and tie the same shade of gray as the shoulder marks and name plate. This would add to the uniform's "distinctiveness".
3) If possible, use a different shade of blue for the shirt. Say, French Blue, which would further make the uniform "distinctive".
(http://www.huebschdirect.com/assets/images/original/31/31620_d62794fa1d50b941ab813104b0dfb3794de9b042.png)
4) Mandate a standard plain leather belt with silver buckle.
5) Change the Flight Officer shoulder grade marks from the "naval stripes" to an embroidered version of the sew-on collar grade.
Otherwise, pretty sharp.
But to be honest, I would prefer going back to our roots and going with the pink-and-greens made with modern materials, but that's me.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 08, 2014, 01:47:25 PM
Swap out all metal grade, make headgear same device as blues, and wow, that would look good.
Thank you. I do not understand the aversion to metal grade, though...on a uniform like this there is no way we could be mistaken for the USAF.
Quote from: Panache on May 08, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
1) While I like the idea of metal grade on the cap, I doubt that the Powers-That-Be would. Frankly, I'm surprised we're allowed to have metal grade on the BBDU cap.
Which Powers-That-Be? The AF, or the P-T-B in CAP who view that as almost a third rail?
And, yes, I have never figured out why we are permitted to have it on just one item of clothing...
Quote from: Panache on May 08, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
2) Make the flight cap and tie the same shade of gray as the shoulder marks and name plate. This would add to the uniform's "distinctiveness".
Flight cap yes, but a grey tie? No, thank you. Too much grey.
Quote from: Panache on May 08, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
3) If possible, use a different shade of blue for the shirt. Say, French Blue, which would further make the uniform "distinctive".
That is a good idea, though the Van Heusen blue shirts really are a different shade (darker) and fabric from the USAF.
I would use the Bleu de Francais for the piping on the flight cap.
Quote from: Panache on May 08, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
4) Mandate a standard plain leather belt with silver buckle.
(petulant tone) I still like the idea of having a CAP crest on the buckle. :P
Quote from: Panache on May 08, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
5) Change the Flight Officer shoulder grade marks from the "naval stripes" to an embroidered version of the sew-on collar grade.
Even with bifocals, I cannot often make out the embroidered teeny-tiny white stripes on that insignia denoting an FO/TFO/SFO. The AF does not use warrant officer grades, which is why I suggested those. At worst, we would be confused with Customs & Border Patrol "journeyman" insignia.
(http://i8.tinypic.com/6b0e690.jpg)
I can say from experience that CBP shoulder slides are indistinguishable from the USAF. I would not be surprised if CBP uses AF shoulder slides. I have seen them many, many times when coming back from Canada and, if not the same, they're pretty darn close.
Quote from: Panache on May 08, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
But to be honest, I would prefer going back to our roots and going with the pink-and-greens made with modern materials, but that's me.
I like those too, but I am trying to use extant materials that can be gotten off-the-rack.
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on May 08, 2014, 04:26:18 PM
Looks good; only thing I would change is the cut of the double-breasted jacket. It would look better if a Navy officer/CPO jacket cut is used (all jacket buttons are in line, not as shown in the illustration). For formal occasions, a civilian black tuxedo (with notch lapels), white formal shirt and allowing CAP-only miniature medals, badges and the 'dinner plate'.
Specify flat front trousers, no cuffed hems.
Good points, but I tried to avoid the CPO-cut on purpose since the CSU had that.
Civilian tux? Nein, danke. Again I am trying to K.I.S.S. as much as I can. Anyway, when I think of tuxedos I think of Chuck Barriss on "The Gong Show."
:)
^^^ I agree as outlined above.
Just a couple small points that are like a fork on teeth:
1. CBP is Customs and Border Protection. Border Patrol is a different animal under the CBP umbrella.
2. Drop the term "rank slides". They're epaulette sleeves or shoulder marks. Ranks slides sounds like a line dance at a wedding.
The only problem with the Van Hausen shirts is they are not available for those of use who are tall (5'9" and up) and rotund. The same problem exists with the white aviator shirts, which contributes to variety of styles out there.
5'-9" is tall these days?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 08, 2014, 08:08:52 PM
5'-9" is tall these days?
I guess I'm tall. Who would have thought?
Quote from: Eclipse on May 08, 2014, 08:08:52 PM
5'-9" is tall these days?
According to Van Haussen. If I can get the right size neck, the body length is for someone who is 5'6", not 6'. They quit making talls with a neck greater than 18.5.
Quote from: arajca on May 08, 2014, 08:05:53 PM
The only problem with the Van Hausen shirts is they are not available for those of use who are tall (5'9" and up) and rotund. The same problem exists with the white aviator shirts, which contributes to variety of styles out there.
I have a 19.5 neck and I'm about 6'1" and I wear a standard-length white Van Hausen Aviator quite comfortably.
But apparently they do make the blue shirts in long lengths: Tall Blue Pilot Shirts - Men's Van Heusen The Aviator TALL Short Sleeve Pilot Uniform Shirts (http://www.garffshirts.com/pilot-shirts-van-heusen-the-aviator-tall-blue-pilot-uniform-shirts.aspx)
Quote from: CyBorg on May 08, 2014, 01:21:08 PM
Alright then, here, in all its "glory"..... :o
Very reasonable suggestions and well thought out.
Quote from: Panache on May 08, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
... But to be honest, I would prefer going back to our roots and going with the pink-and-greens made with modern materials, but that's me.
In the vein of my suggestion of a khaki/silver-tan corporate uniform I tend to agree with you.
I found this thread http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18680.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18680.0) very interesting in that regard.
Looking back may be the way forward.
Quote from: CyBorg on May 08, 2014, 06:56:58 PM
Quote from: Panache on May 08, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
5) Change the Flight Officer shoulder grade marks from the "naval stripes" to an embroidered version of the sew-on collar grade.
Even with bifocals, I cannot often make out the embroidered teeny-tiny white stripes on that insignia denoting an FO/TFO/SFO. The AF does not use warrant officer grades, which is why I suggested those. At worst, we would be confused with Customs & Border Patrol "journeyman" insignia.
(http://i8.tinypic.com/6b0e690.jpg)
I can say from experience that CBP shoulder slides are indistinguishable from the USAF. I would not be surprised if CBP uses AF shoulder slides. I have seen them many, many times when coming back from Canada and, if not the same, they're pretty darn close.
Indeed. I think these:
(http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m8WTFMkkogfbX07yePoigcw.jpg)
(in gray and with the CAP lettering, of course)
...look much nicer than these:
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000CAP0747QA_MED.jpg)
Quote from: CyBorg on May 08, 2014, 06:56:58 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 08, 2014, 01:47:25 PM
Swap out all metal grade, make headgear same device as blues, and wow, that would look good.
Thank you. I do not understand the aversion to metal grade, though...on a uniform like this there is no way we could be mistaken for the USAF.
Quote from: Panache on May 08, 2014, 06:01:44 PM
1) While I like the idea of metal grade on the cap, I doubt that the Powers-That-Be would. Frankly, I'm surprised we're allowed to have metal grade on the BBDU cap.
Which Powers-That-Be? The AF, or the P-T-B in CAP who view that as almost a third rail?
And, yes, I have never figured out why we are permitted to have it on just one item of clothing...
You know, now that I've had time to ruminate over it...
To the best of my recollection, and if I'm wrong please somebody correct me, but no officers in the USAF nowadays wear metal grade insignia on their collar, correct? The only place where metal officer grade insignia is worn is on outerwear (service coat, all-weather coat, etc.) and the flight cap if I remember correctly.
With this "CAP-only" outfit we're putting together here, and again "getting back to our USAAF roots", I suggest wearing a single metal grade insignia on the wearer's right collar, with the CAP cut-outs on the wearer's left collar. This would further make the uniform "CAP-distinctive" (as this setup isn't used by Ma Blue anymore) to prevent confusion with USAF commissioned officers.
For the service coat, all-weather coat, etc. nothing would change from your proposal (i.e. gray CAP shoulder marks).
^^I do not think metal grade on the collar has been worn by the AF since some wore subdued metal grade on the BDU in days gone past.
However, as I have said, that seems to be the "third rail" (along with the colour blue) that CAP seems to be unwilling to even discuss, let alone touch.
I had thought of your idea myself, actually, but I did not put it forward because of that attitude: "EEK! Metal grade! Blue shirt! The AF will be honked-off!"
I am not really "putting together a new uniform." I posted this because for some time many have asked me if I actually had a proposal, or if I was just going to gripe about it on CT. I did this to show that I do have a proposal.
However, I do not see it having any more than a fart's chance in a hurricane of actually being considered, given that from the new 39-1, the attitude of the NUC seems to me to be rigidly status-quo.
Quote from: CyBorg on May 09, 2014, 02:02:55 PM
However, I do not see it having any more than a fart's chance in a hurricane of actually being considered, given that from the new 39-1, the attitude of the NUC seems to me to be rigidly status-quo.
Unfortunately, I have to agree. This is all just mental gymnastics. I hazard to say there's a snowball's chance in Panama of any meaningful changes.
I like to ideas in general, however I do have a couple of suggestions:
1. Flight/garrision cap - Dark Navy to match service coat or black. Either with silver checked piping
2. Include service cap in matching color for service coat (optional)
3. Formal "Mess" dress - white pleated front tuxedo shirt, black bow tie as listed, remove name tag, replace ribbons with miniature medals.
4. Pants/trousers - Dress slacks, color - Gray Heather, flat front, no cuffed hems, slant pockets (front), inset pockets (rear). No jeans, jean cut, tactical/bdu style, or casual ("khakis") pants.
5. Shirt - specify with two flat, non-pleated, flapped pockets with pointed pocket hem and flap.
If we're talking shades of blue, I really like the royal-blue shirts used by the TSA. Unfortunately, that color has now been tainted by association by the TSA.
Ironically enough, with the white-shirt-gray-slacks, we look like.... former TSA. (sigh)
(http://consumertraveler.com/wp-content/uploads/TSA_Uniforms.gif)
^^Or mall security guards. Honestly, at our local mall, the security people look so much like they're wearing the G/W kit that they look like CAP members until you get close enough to see the accoutrements on their uniforms and that they're wearing a leather police-type belt. ::)
Quote from: Panache on May 10, 2014, 10:32:59 AM
If we're talking shades of blue, I really like the royal-blue shirts used by the TSA. Unfortunately, that color has now been tainted by association by the TSA.
Ironically enough, with the white-shirt-gray-slacks, we look like.... former TSA. (sigh)
(http://consumertraveler.com/wp-content/uploads/TSA_Uniforms.gif)
TSA
NEVER wore gray slacks. And all of the white shirts shown are second generation shirts, introduced in 2004-5. The shade of blue was chosen by a Federal Security Director in one of the square fly over states who was a retired police and was chair of the uni board. Why that blue? It was the same as the one his department wore.
Quote from: THRAWN on May 12, 2014, 08:22:49 PM
Quote from: Panache on May 10, 2014, 10:32:59 AM
If we're talking shades of blue, I really like the royal-blue shirts used by the TSA. Unfortunately, that color has now been tainted by association by the TSA.
Ironically enough, with the white-shirt-gray-slacks, we look like.... former TSA. (sigh)
(http://consumertraveler.com/wp-content/uploads/TSA_Uniforms.gif)
TSA NEVER wore gray slacks.
I'm just passing along this little info-graphic put out by the TSA. Granted, I've never been much of a TSA-groupie, so you could tell me they wore yellow and pink bathing trunks in 2005 and I would take your word for it.
Quote from: THRAWN on May 12, 2014, 08:22:49 PMThe shade of blue was chosen by a Federal Security Director in one of the square fly over states who was a retired police and was chair of the uni board. Why that blue? It was the same as the one his department wore.
Well, it is a nice shade of blue. Too bad it's now tainted by association.
Define "tainted".
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 11:30:48 AM
Define "tainted".
Would you want anybody to even think you worked for the TSA?
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 12:31:31 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 11:30:48 AM
Define "tainted".
Would you want anybody to even think you worked for the TSA?
And again, why would that be an issue? There's a lot more to TSA than just the screening function. Even those types are trained, tested, retrained, retested, every time some citizen with a narrow focus and little understanding of just what the job entails complains to their congresscritter. Granted, there are those who give the agency a bad name. Same for CAP. Same for the USAF. Same for the FBI. Same for the Harper Valley PTA.
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 12:37:19 PM
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 12:31:31 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 11:30:48 AM
Define "tainted".
Would you want anybody to even think you worked for the TSA?
And again, why would that be an issue? There's a lot more to TSA than just the screening function.
But this is the most visible and well-known, and reviled, part of the TSA. I think you underestimate the extreme ire that most Americans feel towards the TSA.
I have my own Family TSA horror story from 2006. A senator/congressman had to get involved. And I'm not talking about the public screeners either.
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 12:57:36 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 12:37:19 PM
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 12:31:31 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 11:30:48 AM
Define "tainted".
Would you want anybody to even think you worked for the TSA?
And again, why would that be an issue? There's a lot more to TSA than just the screening function.
But this is the most visible and well-known, and reviled, part of the TSA. I think you underestimate the extreme ire that most Americans feel towards the TSA.
And that's because most Americans have little or no idea just what the agency does on a day to day basis. Nor do they care.
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 01:46:08 PM
And that's because most Americans have little or no idea just what the agency does on a day to day basis. Nor do they care.
I'm not here to argue the pros or cons of the TSA. The fact is, most Americans hold them in very low regard. Especially the screeners. Whether this is justified or not is besides the point. The point is that (a) the shade of blue that they use is, in my opinion, rather handsome, (b) I would propose this as a CAP uniform item to replace the white aviator shirt, if not for (c) that color is now associated with TSA screeners. Which, again, most Americans rank between "used car salesman" and "member of Congress" in likability.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 13, 2014, 01:32:42 PM
I have my own Family TSA horror story from 2006. A senator/congressman had to get involved. And I'm not talking about the public screeners either.
Apparently, as per THRAWN, you simply misunderstood the situation as you were not aware of the full nuances of the circumstances.
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 01:46:08 PM
And that's because most Americans have little or no idea just what the agency does on a day to day basis. Nor do they care.
I'm not here to argue the pros or cons of the TSA. The fact is, most Americans hold them in very low regard. Especially the screeners. Whether this is justified or not is besides the point. The point is that (a) the shade of blue that they use is, in my opinion, rather handsome, (b) I would propose this as a CAP uniform item to replace the white aviator shirt, if not for (c) that color is now associated with TSA screeners. Which, again, most Americans rank between "used car salesman" and "member of Congress" in likability.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 13, 2014, 01:32:42 PM
I have my own Family TSA horror story from 2006. A senator/congressman had to get involved. And I'm not talking about the public screeners either.
Apparently, as per THRAWN, you simply misunderstood the situation as you were not aware of the full nuances of the circumstances.
I never said that. And it is not beside the point as to it being justified. You opened the door to this discussion, and as is typical, don't have all of the facts before you make ignorant statements. I would never, and have never, discounted anyone's TSA "horror story". I do like how you use the word "fact" and an unverified statistic in the same sentence.
As for the color of the shirt, it'd work. I don't see the Marines changing the color of their uniform shirts because the color is associated with the Nazis...
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 02:33:22 PM
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 01:46:08 PM
And that's because most Americans have little or no idea just what the agency does on a day to day basis. Nor do they care.
I'm not here to argue the pros or cons of the TSA. The fact is, most Americans hold them in very low regard. Especially the screeners. Whether this is justified or not is besides the point. The point is that (a) the shade of blue that they use is, in my opinion, rather handsome, (b) I would propose this as a CAP uniform item to replace the white aviator shirt, if not for (c) that color is now associated with TSA screeners. Which, again, most Americans rank between "used car salesman" and "member of Congress" in likability.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 13, 2014, 01:32:42 PM
I have my own Family TSA horror story from 2006. A senator/congressman had to get involved. And I'm not talking about the public screeners either.
Apparently, as per THRAWN, you simply misunderstood the situation as you were not aware of the full nuances of the circumstances.
You opened the door to this discussion, and as is typical, don't have all of the facts before you make ignorant statements. I would never, and have never, discounted anyone's TSA "horror story". I do like how you use the word "fact" and an unverified statistic in the same sentence.
I eagerly look forward to your evidence of pro-TSA sentiment in the United States.
QuoteI don't see the Marines changing the color of their uniform shirts because the color is associated with the Nazis...
Godwin's Law violation.
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 02:33:22 PM
Quote from: Panache on May 13, 2014, 01:53:04 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 01:46:08 PM
And that's because most Americans have little or no idea just what the agency does on a day to day basis. Nor do they care.
I'm not here to argue the pros or cons of the TSA. The fact is, most Americans hold them in very low regard. Especially the screeners. Whether this is justified or not is besides the point. The point is that (a) the shade of blue that they use is, in my opinion, rather handsome, (b) I would propose this as a CAP uniform item to replace the white aviator shirt, if not for (c) that color is now associated with TSA screeners. Which, again, most Americans rank between "used car salesman" and "member of Congress" in likability.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on May 13, 2014, 01:32:42 PM
I have my own Family TSA horror story from 2006. A senator/congressman had to get involved. And I'm not talking about the public screeners either.
Apparently, as per THRAWN, you simply misunderstood the situation as you were not aware of the full nuances of the circumstances.
You opened the door to this discussion, and as is typical, don't have all of the facts before you make ignorant statements. I would never, and have never, discounted anyone's TSA "horror story". I do like how you use the word "fact" and an unverified statistic in the same sentence.
I eagerly look forward to your evidence of pro-TSA sentiment in the United States.
QuoteI don't see the Marines changing the color of their uniform shirts because the color is associated with the Nazis...
Godwin's Law violation.
Reading comprehension isn't your bag, eh? I never said that there was any pro-TSA sentiment, but since you have this facination with lies, [darn]ed lies, and statistics, here you go:
From The Harris Poll conducted in March: "Those more likely to have been on the business end of a TSA screening within the past year are more likely to see it as both making air travel safer (46% among those who took no airline trips in the past year vs. 55% among those who took 1-5 and 57% among those who took over 5) and serving as an effective deterrent to hijacking (45% vs. 53% and 60%, respectively). "
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/mid/1508/articleId/1419/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/Default.aspx (http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/mid/1508/articleId/1419/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/Default.aspx)
MOST Americans will never be exposed to TSA screening because MOST Americans don't fly. Those that do are of the Chevy Chase variety, taking the kidlings to Wally World. They are the ones that have the most issue with the process. Why? Because they never do it. They are the ones that make the most complaints and they are the ones who, when polled, skew the statistics in a negative trend.
Good misuse of Godwin's Law. Again, the comprehension thing...
Quote from: THRAWN on May 13, 2014, 03:36:50 PM
Reading comprehension isn't your bag, eh? I never said that there was any pro-TSA sentiment, but since you have this facination with lies, [darn]ed lies, and statistics, here you go:
From The Harris Poll conducted in March: "Those more likely to have been on the business end of a TSA screening within the past year are more likely to see it as both making air travel safer (46% among those who took no airline trips in the past year vs. 55% among those who took 1-5 and 57% among those who took over 5) and serving as an effective deterrent to hijacking (45% vs. 53% and 60%, respectively). "
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/mid/1508/articleId/1419/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/Default.aspx (http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/mid/1508/articleId/1419/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/Default.aspx)
MOST Americans will never be exposed to TSA screening because MOST Americans don't fly. Those that do are of the Chevy Chase variety, taking the kidlings to Wally World. They are the ones that have the most issue with the process. Why? Because they never do it. They are the ones that make the most complaints and they are the ones who, when polled, skew the statistics in a negative trend.
Translation: "Yeah, you're right, but I want to be snide about it and throw my spin on it." Nah, it's okay, I understand. It's normal to lash out at people when you know you're wrong.
But continue spinning the TSA as some agency Americans just love, because I'm not the one looking foolish on it.
I am kind of curious as to why you're shilling for them, though.
Quote
Good misuse of Godwin's Law. Again, the comprehension thing...
You're the one making making Nazi comparisons. Not me. Might wanna enroll in that Reading Is Fundamental course at your local community college.
EDIT: Poll fun. http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2013/10/poll-85-of-frequent-flyers-give-tsa-fair-or-poor-rating/ (http://www.frequentbusinesstraveler.com/2013/10/poll-85-of-frequent-flyers-give-tsa-fair-or-poor-rating/)
Let's cool it with the Nazi business, all right?
For one thing, I would not tell a Marine that his/her uniform shirt resembled the Sturmabteilung "brownshirts," not unless I was feeling foolhardy.
And it really does not matter if a shirt is the same colour as the TSA's. CAP is not the TSA.
It is like when I made the comparison with CBP shoulder marks. I have (unfortunately) encountered some CBP personnel who would not be able to be a playground monitor, but I have encountered some that are very professional at what they do. I am not going to smear the entire CBP because some of them are jerks.
In any case, this is a uniform thread in the uniforms and awards section. Don't let it degrade into an insult match.
Quote from: CyBorg on May 13, 2014, 08:25:28 PM
Let's cool it with the Nazi business, all right?
Indeed. Besides, May 9th has come and passed. We won.
Quote from: CyBorg on May 13, 2014, 08:25:28 PM
In any case, this is a uniform thread in the uniforms and awards section. Don't let it degrade into an insult match.
Agreed. We were both getting a little out of hand.