CAP Talk

By order of CAPR 39-3, the community service ribbon is awarded for 60 hours of community service(for cadets, at least). However, I have met people who have the ribbon, yet say they have done only a couple of hours of community service. I notice that many high schools require students to do some community service, but other than a certificate, what kind of proof does a CAP squadron need, and does it absolutely have to be 60 hours of service?

The proof is entirely subjective to the commander approving the award, as is the criteria.

Some commanders require a plan be submitted in advance of the service, some accept service as far back as a person can
substantiate, including before they joined CAP.

Ask you commander what he expects.

I wanted time, date, location and POC. 

i.e.

1000-1200 (2 hours) 2/2/13 Petticoat Junction Nursing Home Mrs Smith
0900- 1200 (3 hours) 2/3/13  Mayberry Senior Center Ms Jones

If it is documented like that it really happen. Cadet Wonderful claiming they did 60 hours last year does not cut it, IMHO.

I usually ask for a letter from the Volunteer Coordinator of the organization involved for a letter certifying at least 60 hours of community service.  Most are willing to comply.

Quote from: SARDOC on February 09, 2013, 09:10:42 PM
I usually ask for a letter from the Volunteer Coordinator of the organization involved for a letter certifying at least 60 hours of community service.  Most are willing to comply.

I've got the SM ribbon and two clasps for my work with the BSA (I put in lots & lots of hours). I had the Chartered Organization Representative for my troop write a letter on official stationery certifying all my hours for each award and I gave that to the CC.

To the OP - yes, 60 hours is required. There is no no provision in the regulation for fewer hours.

Walkman-

Are you a BSA scoutmaster or other adult leader? If so, who certified your work with the BSA? A council member?

I have two senior members who although have not requested so, they are adult leaders of a troop. So I am thinking they could request one as well.

Flyer

Quote from: flyer333555 on February 10, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
Walkman-

Are you a BSA scoutmaster or other adult leader? If so, who certified your work with the BSA? A council member?

I have two senior members who although have not requested so, they are adult leaders of a troop. So I am thinking they could request one as well.

Flyer

Assistant Scoutmaster. There are several people in a troop that can write that kind of letter. Anyone that is in a position of authority really. Our troop is chartered through our church, so our minister is the "Charter Organization Representative", he wrote the letter for me. Scout Master, Troop Committee Chair, or even employees of the council could certify the hours.

For my ribbon, I volunteered at my local church doing landscaping and all that jazz. When me and the pastor calculated my total, I had at least 60 hours. So he wrote a letter stating I had completed 60 hours of volunteer service doing (x), then signed it.

This is something I have long been in a quandary about.

I do a fair bit of volunteering at my church, and under CAP regs that qualifies for the CSR.  I asked my CC.

However, I feel like it would somehow be immoral to ask for a medal for doing something that is part of my faith.

I wish I could ask a CAP/military Chaplain about it, but there aren't any locally.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 01, 2013, 08:17:55 PM
This is something I have long been in a quandary about.

I do a fair bit of volunteering at my church, and under CAP regs that qualifies for the CSR.  I asked my CC.

However, I feel like it would somehow be immoral to ask for a medal for doing something that is part of my faith.

I wish I could ask a CAP/military Chaplain about it, but there aren't any locally.

If your church gives you a certificate of appreciation for the volunteer work you do you will gladly frame it and put it on the wall, yes?
Wear the ribbon... for the same reason you would frame and hang the certificate.
"For his glory, not yours."

:)

Quote from: CyBorg on April 01, 2013, 08:17:55 PM
This is something I have long been in a quandary about.

I do a fair bit of volunteering at my church, and under CAP regs that qualifies for the CSR.  I asked my CC.

However, I feel like it would somehow be immoral to ask for a medal for doing something that is part of my faith.

I wish I could ask a CAP/military Chaplain about it, but there aren't any locally.

Think of it this way: one of our core values is Volunteer Service. There are many in CAP who show up and grab the benefits, but do not always truly embody the spirit of the core value. I would say that by allowing yourself to be recognized for really living in accordance with that value, you serve as an inspiration to others to step up and do more. Being an example of doing it right goes a lot further than most people realize.

Sorry, that other organization is already giving you whatever accolades they normally do.

It's not uncommon to get the CSR for things like this, but I'd never sign one.

IMHO they should be activities you would not be doing as a matter of the normal course of your outside CAP life.

It's a subjective award and other commanders feel otherwise.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2013, 09:21:09 PM
Sorry, that other organization is already giving you whatever accolades they normally do.

It's not uncommon to get the CSR for things like this, but I'd never sign one.

IMHO they should be activities you would not be doing as a matter of the normal course of your outside CAP life.

It's a subjective award and other commanders feel otherwise.

Sorry, but many many organizations do not award anything for your endeavors.  You frequently paint this and other regs with an extremely narrow optic.  The CSR is written to be quite vague so that all outside organizations can be used toward the CSR.  Given that hours within CAP cannot be used, how else could one possibly achieve the CSR if you will not even entertain the concept?

Quote from: Eclipse on April 01, 2013, 09:21:09 PM
Sorry, that other organization is already giving you whatever accolades they normally do.

It's not uncommon to get the CSR for things like this, but I'd never sign one.

IMHO they should be activities you would not be doing as a matter of the normal course of your outside CAP life.

It's a subjective award and other commanders feel otherwise.

So who determines the "normal course" of your outside life?
Cadet A is a member of a religous sect that promotes good works.
Cadet B is a Boy Scout Member who is required to peform community service that benifits outside organisations.
Cadet C is in a high school that requires community Service.
Cadet D has parents that are out feeding the poor every weekend.
Cadet E got sentanced to community service for vandalism.
Cadet F is non of these things.

If they all do 60 hours of community service as defined by CAP regulations.........who is actually eligible for the award?

The only scenerio that is IMHO aruguable as not eligable woudl be Cadet E.....but even then I don't know it is supported by regulations.

Bottom line is.....CAP is trying to promote community service OUTSIDE of CAP....i.e. it is not a squadron event and not benifitting CAP.    It should not matter if other oragnisations are also trying to promote community service or that other organisations also reward you for your service.  That is just icing on the cake AFAIAC.

Instead of trying to be a hard ass about these things....think about WHY we have them in the first place.   Member X does 60 hours of community services and show the documentation to prove it.........sign the CAPF2 and give him his ribbon and chance to shake and take, then move on.

Making up local subjective rules based on personal interpetation only means that somone is going to get bent out of shape when you don't approve his 60 hours of church work.....but someone elses work doing the same thing...but not related to a church.

No one is getting "bent", because I made it clear what my expectations were, and I think it borders on ribbon trolling to
get credit from more then one organization for the same act or activity, or worse, submit things from your days before you were
even a member (See that, denied it, others approved the same nonsense).

If you wake up one morning and submit a new project or activity to your commander and ask if it will qualify for credit, that's one thing.

But if you wake up one morning ad realize that activities you're already doing as a matter of obligations to another organization
would qualify for a ribbon? No.

As you say, NHQ has left this 100% subjective, and commanders have to sign with their conscience.

And frankly, I don't "know" why we have these things, except probably to model the military in yet another lane where it
doesn't make much sense.  CAP service >is< community service, in and of itself, so encouraging activities with other organizations,
just like having CAP donate to another 501(c)3, seems counterproductive to me.

The way I interpret the meaning is "in addition to" the normal expectations. You joined CAP, rather, you volunteered for CAP, that's excellent. Why should you get "credit" from the BSA for it?

Like wise, you volunteered for the BSA, and why should CAP recognize it?

Now, if as part of those duties you've volunteered for, you organize a Habitat for Humanity event, or you make your cadets available to a local air museum for an event, that's where community service comes in.

CAP recognizes you already for serving. The Red Service Ribbon and add on devices. I hope the BSA has a similar means of recognition.

That's what you show for the weeks, hours, etc. that you put into the meeting and in-house unit activities.

Well, I don't get any other "recognition" other than occasionally someone on the church staff saying "thank you," which is quite enough, don't get me wrong - and it's BECAUSE my faith is such an integral part of my life that I have this cognitive dissonance.

I could volunteer at the local food bank...but by Eclipse's standards that would not be good, as my church already actively supports the food bank.

The thought of submitting something from the days before I was even a member has never entered my mind.  My CC would rightly say, "you did WHAT in 1990 and want a ribbon for it?!"

It is not an "obligation" that I do what I do for the church.  I do it because I want to.

Sorry to open the can of worms...but I do see other CAP members doing the same thing (volunteering at religious organisations) and having a CSR with several clasps.

This is going to sound like whining, but I haven't earned a ribbon since 2006 (CommComm) and I haven't been promoted since 1997 (for reasons many of you, including Eclipse, know about), while I see (as I've said before) SMWOG's and 2nd Lt's with multiple CommComm's mostly for knowing the "right" people.

:-X

I guess we just have to agree to disagree.........I will say that I am so glad I was never in your squadron.....I would have walked out of CAP years ago.

>:(

Quote from: lordmonar on April 01, 2013, 11:25:28 PM
I guess we just have to agree to disagree.........I will say that I am so glad I was never in your squadron.....I would have walked out of CAP years ago.

I highly doubt it, because your overall experience would be so great.

CSRs are the kind or peripheral nonsense people thumb through when they are not fully engaged in actual CAP-centric activities,
or see other people with fuller racks and are trying to add whatever they can.  Members with a chest-load of SAR, Encampment, Find,
PD, and Commendation ribbons don't generally care too much about CSRs, if for no other reason then their free time is fully accounted for
with meaningful CAP activities.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 12:30:06 AM
CSRs are the kind or peripheral nonsense people thumb through when they are not fully engaged in actual CAP-centric activities,
or see other people with fuller racks and are trying to add whatever they can.  Members with a chest-load of SAR, Encampment, Find,
PD, and Commendation ribbons don't generally care too much about CSRs, if for no other reason then their free time is fully accounted for
with meaningful CAP activities.

Or when such a member like me, for whatever reasons (health concerns in my case) is generally precluded from taking part in such high-profile "meaningful" CAP activities and who feel like they're running in place/warming a chair in CAP, whose CAP work is very largely behind the scenes.

I do take offence at you calling CSR's "peripheral nonsense."

Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 12:30:06 AM
CSRs are the kind or peripheral nonsense people thumb through when they are not fully engaged in actual CAP-centric activities,
or see other people with fuller racks and are trying to add whatever they can.  Members with a chest-load of SAR, Encampment, Find, PD, and Commendation ribbons don't generally care too much about CSRs, if for no other reason then their free time is fully accounted for with meaningful CAP activities.

Really? I guess my 3 squadron duties (ESO, CDI & RRO) plus group staff means that I'm not full engaged in "meaningful CAP activities". I've busted my tail in both CAP and the BSA, it is nice once in a while to get a "good job!"

Sometimes the way you come across as if you're completely infallible in all things CAP, that you are never wrong and anyone that disagrees is just an idiot. You are not perfect, are not always correct and sometimes people's interpretations of the more gray things in regs are just as valid as yours. I'll admit that you do know the regs well and many times I agree with you, but sometimes you just need to back off the throttle a little.

I guess my jobs as Administrative Officer, Deputy Safety Officer and Deputy AE Officer don't really rate as "meaningful," either.

Quote from: Walkman on April 02, 2013, 01:28:04 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 12:30:06 AM
CSRs are the kind or peripheral nonsense people thumb through when they are not fully engaged in actual CAP-centric activities,
or see other people with fuller racks and are trying to add whatever they can.  Members with a chest-load of SAR, Encampment, Find, PD, and Commendation ribbons don't generally care too much about CSRs, if for no other reason then their free time is fully accounted for with meaningful CAP activities.

Really? I guess my 3 squadron duties (ESO, CDI & RRO) plus group staff means that I'm not full engaged in "meaningful CAP activities". I've busted my tail in both CAP and the BSA, it is nice once in a while to get a "good job!"

Do you feel that either organization is not properly acknowledging your respective service?  Then address it with the right organization, but don't look for
fulfillment from one in regards to another, or to make up for the failure of one to recognize you. A CSR for time spent with the BSA has nothing do to with your CAP service, nor is it related to your, I'm sure, excellent work in the respective areas you indicate.

A CSR should not be considered a consolation prize for other decorations not properly awarded.  That, in itself, cheapens the award for everyone else.

Quote from: Walkman on April 02, 2013, 01:28:04 AM
sometimes people's interpretations of the more gray things in regs are just as valid as yours.

Of course they are.  Other commanders are free to make the choices they are comfortable with.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 02, 2013, 01:30:23 AM
I guess my jobs as Administrative Officer, Deputy Safety Officer and Deputy AE Officer don't really rate as "meaningful," either.

I honestly don't understand your point.  What does a CSR have to do with CAP service?

Quote from: C/MSGT Montez on April 01, 2013, 09:17:13 AM
For my ribbon, I volunteered at my local church doing landscaping and all that jazz. When me and the pastor calculated my total, I had at least 60 hours. So he wrote a letter stating I had completed 60 hours of volunteer service doing (x), then signed it.

Excellent, congratulations on your award.   :clap:

The CSR is a direct reflection of our core value of Volunteer Service. The ribbon says "we value those who spend their time working to better their community and think it's important to recognize them". It's a way of showing those who truly exemplify that trait by not only serving in CAP, but doing good in other areas as well. In our current culture, the number of people spending their time trying to make things better instead of vegging out in front of the tube or online is getting less and less, even the very idea seems to be fading.

NHQ has decided that this is worth a small piece of fabric that can be worn on a uniform. Why dig into people for wearing it? Its not my most important or meaningful ribbon, and neither the first award nor the clasps were given in any ceremony or formation, but I earned it, my CC approved it and NHQ originally authorized its wear. 'Nuff said.

The world according to Eclipse.....forget that the CSR has been around forever.....that it is there to encourage outside community service.  Since it does not impact Eclipse world....he does not care about it.....and any CAP member who does is defective in some way.

So he makes it harder to earn it then it needs to be.....because he feels that those who get awards are only compensating for not having a big rack.

I don't think my "experince" in your squadron would be all that great.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 02, 2013, 03:12:15 AM
The world according to Eclipse.....forget that the CSR has been around forever.....that it is there to encourage outside community service.  Since it does not impact Eclipse world....he does not care about it.....and any CAP member who does is defective in some way.

So he makes it harder to earn it then it needs to be.....because he feels that those who get awards are only compensating for not having a big rack.

I don't think my "experince" in your squadron would be all that great.

OK, seriously - did you queue evil music when you typed that?

That entire paragraph is a complete mischaracterization of my part of this discussion.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 02:27:30 AM

Quote from: CyBorg on April 02, 2013, 01:30:23 AM
I guess my jobs as Administrative Officer, Deputy Safety Officer and Deputy AE Officer don't really rate as "meaningful," either.

I honestly don't understand your point.  What does a CSR have to do with CAP service?

Sir, my point is that under the heading of "meaningful" duty meriting ribbons, you listed "in-the-field/in-the-air/ES" activities...an attitude unfortunately endemic throughout much of CAP.

At one point in my life I was able to do such things fairly easily...I qualified as Scanner, then Observer, manned base comms, etc.  That was 20 years ago.  I was also named as the AFA's CAP Senior Member of the Year for the area in which I lived at the time and was fêted at a dinner put on by AFA.

The chances are quite unlikely now for me to earn any kind of Find, Air SAR, Counterdrug, DR, or similar award.  Nor will I be in line for promotion for at least another year, perhaps more.  I am not vain enough to think that what I do merits any kind of Exceptional Service or certainly not Silver/Bronze Medal of Valour.

Therefore, the only awards realistically available to me are the PD awards (the highest one I currently have is the Loening), clasps to my Red Service Ribbon and maybe, if I get lucky, an Achievement Award...or, perhaps, a CSR.

The SAR and Find ribbons are also available to members who serve in base staff and support roles, beyond that, you have a point
that there are more ribbons potentially available to members who serve in a lot of missions, but there are certainly things
open to you that would also garner decorations - encampments, NCSAs, recruiting to name several.

Regardless, the above, fair or otherwise, doesn't change the fact that the CSR isn't in anyway connected to being appreciated
for CAP service, and shouldn't be considered as some sort of rack-filler, that kinda makes my point about why many people
put in for it.

I understand that you're personally stuck in a circumstance loop that is hard to get out of, and if I were in your situation I
don't even know if I'd be continuing my membership, but difficulty at the micro level shouldn't inform the plan at the macro level.
Besides, I'm not the one who has to sign it anyway, so my opinion is anecdotal interesting at best.

My baseline point in this is that, as a commander, my first and foremost job is encouraging people to meaningful >CAP< service.
I have no interest or mandate in fostering other organizations, especially ones that may compete for member time and resources.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 07:48:35 PM
The SAR and Find ribbons are also available to members who serve in base staff and support roles, beyond that, you have a point
that there are more ribbons potentially available to members who serve in a lot of missions, but there are certainly things
open to you that would also garner decorations - encampments, NCSAs, recruiting to name several.

Regardless, the above, fair or otherwise, doesn't change the fact that the CSR isn't in anyway connected to being appreciated
for CAP service, and shouldn't be considered as some sort of rack-filler, that kinda makes my point about why many people
put in for it.

Accept you miss the CAP goal that we do service MORE then just to CAP programs.   Many people put in for it....because they have earned....just like the recruiting ribbon, find ribbon, SAR ribbon, and all the rest.

It is not a discrtionary decoration.......Meet the standard.....get the ribbon.   END OF STORY.  You are changeing the standard as published because you don't understand CAP's goal of increasing community service by CAP members.   ERGO you are are working agains the aims and goals of the organisation.

QuoteMy baseline point in this is that, as a commander, my first and foremost job is encouraging people to meaningful >CAP< service.
I have no interest or mandate in fostering other organizations, especially ones that may compete for member time and resources.

So since YOU don't see the need of it......you make it harder for your people to earn it.    This is counter productive to your stated job.....because if you piss off someone with YOUR additonal requirems and YOUR additional expectations.......you run the risk of loosing those who bling is the warm fuzzy they are looking for.   Because you are too busy to fill out a CAPF2 and if you explain yourself the way that you did here.......you will lose anyone who likes ribbons....because your attitidute toward bling hunters shows your contempt for them.

We have these "give away" ribbons because we want our members to do the things that they represent.     Recruit 2 members.....here is your ribbon.  Not because we want to recognise someone who goes out and recruits....but because we want recruits.   We reward people for doing what we want.....that is called positive reinforcement.  We want people to do DR training....we make a ribbon.  We want people to be GT qualified we make a badge, we want people to do community service we make a ribbon.

I have stated before....and will restate it agian.....I don't care why you do something.....but that you do it.

If the only reason you recruit someone is to get a ribbon.........don't care...recruit your two members...here's your ribbon.
If the only reason you volunteer at the church/school/food line/homless shelter/animal shelter is to get a ribbon......don't care...do your 60 hours...here's your ribbon.
If the only reason you volunteer with CAP is to get brownie points with your boss, get EPR bullets, score salutes from cadets........don't care....you do your two years....here is your red service ribbon.

It works both ways.

By changeing the standards.....you disrupt the decorations process and you are abusing the tools we use to run this program.....which is counter productive to your job as a commander and a leader.

You know what?  I'm willing to concede the point. 

I re-read the verbiage, and the requirements are so vague as to allow for literally anything not done in a CAP uniform, so like many
things in CAP, there's no reason to belabor it.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 07:48:35 PM
The SAR and Find ribbons are also available to members who serve in base staff and support roles, beyond that, you have a point
that there are more ribbons potentially available to members who serve in a lot of missions, but there are certainly things
open to you that would also garner decorations - encampments, NCSAs, recruiting to name several.

I have considered those.  However, at base staff/support, my time would be limited; for one thing, I don't want to bring a medicine chest full of my prescriptions with, especially given that some of them cause me to be sleepy (on purpose; insomnia is something I've battled nearly my whole life) and that could endanger the mission.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 07:48:35 PM
Regardless, the above, fair or otherwise, doesn't change the fact that the CSR isn't in anyway connected to being appreciated
for CAP service, and shouldn't be considered as some sort of rack-filler, that kinda makes my point about why many people
put in for it.

The military has all sorts of those rack-fillers.  I don't know what they're called now, but back in my day they were called "gimme's" or "fog-a-mirror" ribbons - meaning, if you could show up, fog a mirror with your breath, and get an officer to sign off on it, you got one.  There are loads of those at the State level for Guard members.  There are also the Unit Citations (in both CAP and the military), whereas you could be the biggest screw-up to ever wear a uniform, but if you were a member of the unit at the time of the award, instant chest candy.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 02, 2013, 07:48:35 PM
I understand that you're personally stuck in a circumstance loop that is hard to get out of, and if I were in your situation I
don't even know if I'd be continuing my membership, but difficulty at the micro level shouldn't inform the plan at the macro level.

The thought of "should I continue?" has been going round in my head for quite some time.  More and more I think that I am just dead weight to an organisation that already has enough of that, and I should make space for those who can make contributions besides making sure paperwork is in order.

I have thought about investigating the NSCC, and/or a return to the CGAUX, but what use would the NSCC have for a 48-year-old Ensign?  Although I've thought if I just continue to do what I do until I can "retire" from CAP, I might be viewed as more of an asset to one of those other groups than just someone who bugged out of CAP because of inertia...

Keep drivin on Cyborg...  While others may not say it, I appreciate the guys/gals who take care of the paperwork...  It's the one thing that noone ever wants to do...  Keep up the good work!  You are a very important part of this organization!   :clap:

As to the ribbons, who really cares?  It is this mindset that casts foulness into the organization.  If someone wants to troll for ribbons, why should you care?  If they earned it and they provide the proof, just sign the form and move on.  We all know there are people out there who want chest candy.  If they are doing their job, let them have it.  If their membership becomes an issue, then start your paperwork trail and 2B them out.  I am getting really irritated with people who think that awarding a ribbon "cheapens" it.  In my 20 years with this organization, I have only considered one person to have really "cheapened" any award and that was when HWSNBN gave himself and some others a SMV for watching a traffic accident.  When I went through UCC, they told us (the students) that the awards committee was getting bored and that we should praise our people by recommending awards for them.  Unfortunately, we have a "Keeper of the Key" on the committee who blocks everything unless you commit an act of bravery that would get you the MoH, and then you might still get disapproved for an Achievement Award.  The "keepers of the key" who won't process awards for the "cheapening" need to find a new mall to cop.  I can't even get COMCOM's for people who really deserve them because of our "keeper of the key".  There was another one in CA who wouldn't process an award unless he had one (he's gone now I think).

The point of the matter is that you can't "cheapen" a CAP award.  Noone outside of CAP really knows what they are for.  Noone outside of CAP really cares.  As a commander, you check the reg to make sure they are qualified for it, make sure the paperwork is in order, and then sign your name in the box.  You don't need to go to the activity they claimed to be supporting asking a bunch of questions (seen it...), you don't need to ask for three reference letters (seen that too...), and you don't need to request an official police report if they claim to save a life when the person writes a letter saying as such (seen that too....).  This attitude is absolutely mind-boggling and I expect a good portion of the reason that we have retention issues has to do with this particular mindset.  You want to keep people around, give them praise when praise is due.  If you cannot praise someone for their hard work, you don't belong in a command position.

Quote from: Duke Dillio on April 03, 2013, 04:09:43 AMAs to the ribbons, who really cares? 

I am getting really irritated with people who think that awarding a ribbon "cheapens" it.  In my 20 years with this organization, I have only considered one person to have really "cheapened" any award and that was when HWSNBN gave himself and some others a SMV for watching a traffic accident. 


The point of the matter is that you can't "cheapen" a CAP award.  ... If you cannot praise someone for their hard work, you don't belong in a command position.

Good points indeed. HWSNBN most likely gave himself a few others he did not deserve either. If you could pencil whip yourself a ComCom why not a SMV?

Hopefully the person in Command has some ideal about awards. i.e., a C/SSgt gets a ribbon for their promotion but you give every Cadet in your Squadron a Achievement Award for making a milestone that they get a ribbon for anyway? How about Achievement Awards for Senior Members who completed two years of service? I am thinking they get the Red Service Ribbon already but whatever.

Every Unit is very different. Some Units give everyone a ComCom and others have not given one out in years.

Every service (except for the Marines) does it.  PCS from one station to the next in the Army and you'll get something.  Graduate from Basic Training, put a ribbon on.  Do your job in the Army for three years without getting into trouble, put another ribbon on.  It is only a big deal to those who make it a big deal.  If a unit commander decides to give a COMCOM to a cadet who just earned his Mitchell, is it really that wrong?  Is it wrong for people to troll for uniform bling?  That's up to you.  In the end, it really doesn't matter a whole lot.  It's an opinion issue that some force on others.  What is in the best interest of the organization is to keep your volunteers happy and working hard.  I'm not saying that we should give a SMV to everyone.  I'm saying that while discretion should be used, noone should be putting up a wall to stop others from being praised.  We can't give our volunteers money.  We can't keep promoting them beyond a certain point.  So what's the issue with giving them a 65 cent ribbon?

Quote from: Private Investigator on April 03, 2013, 07:45:26 AM
Hopefully the person in Command has some ideal about awards. i.e., a C/SSgt gets a ribbon for their promotion but you give every Cadet in your Squadron a Achievement Award for making a milestone that they get a ribbon for anyway? How about Achievement Awards for Senior Members who completed two years of service? I am thinking they get the Red Service Ribbon already but whatever.

Every Unit is very different. Some Units give everyone a ComCom and others have not given one out in years.

(At the risk of thread drift...)

Our Wing CC has a policy that if someone is nominated for an OTY award, but does not receive it, they qualify for an Achievement Award. The reasoning is that if they are doing enough to be nominated, they are going above & beyond.

Quote from: Duke Dillio on April 03, 2013, 12:43:52 PM
I'm saying that while discretion should be used, noone should be putting up a wall to stop others from being praised.

THIS!

FYI ribbons are $1 now. :)

Awards are the way we celebrate our members who embody the values of our organization. Ribbons are a visual display of one's activities and accomplishments within the organization. As has been noted, this is not unique to CAP. The military, police agencies, and all manner of other organizations use ribbons and other awards and decorations to signal the same. I think it is important to reward people for exceeding expectations, and living our core values. It encourages continued success, and similar accomplishment in others.

On the topic of "cheapening" an award, it is certainly possible and should be guarded against. I am sure we can all find examples of this without much effort. This is exactly why awards committees exist, to ensure that award recommendations meet the specified requirements. Simply awarding these ribbons in accordance with regulations doesn't cheapen them, it means that many members are operating at or above expected levels - which is good for the organization. It is good for the organization even if that member's sole motivation is a desire for chest candy. Accomplishment is accomplishment regardless of motivation. If you think the award criteria is too loose, or the award itself does not add to the desired outcomes of the organization, there are channels to recommend changes in regulation to realign based on those priorities.

With specific regard to the CSR, many members have pointed out our core value of Volunteer Service. Given this, we rightfully desire our members involve themselves in their communities beyond CAP. This is mutually beneficial to CAP, the other organization, the community, and the member. As such, CAP has decided that (as a desired outcome) if a member serves 60 hours of service outside our activities, they are eligible for the CSR. There are few restrictions on what type of service counts, again accomplishment is accomplishment regardless of motivation. If cadet A delivers groceries to the elderly only because mom makes him, he is still delivering groceries to the elderly. Sure, it would be better if cadet A branched out and went beyond the requirements, but we can't get into his head and police his motivation. As an aside, I would think that court-ordered community service wouldn't be eligible for consideration since there is no element of volunteerism in complying with a court ordered punishment. I am not sure if the regs agree with me on that, but thankfully, I doubt many members would want attention called to their misconduct by putting in for such award.

If you feel that the CSR does not encourage members to live by our core value of volunteer service, or if you feel that 60 hours is not an acceptable benchmark, there are channels through which change can be suggested. Placing arbitrary additional requirements on any award only disenfranchises members under a particular command from being recognized fairly for their contributions to our organization.

Quote from: Duke Dillio on April 03, 2013, 04:09:43 AM
Keep drivin on Cyborg...  While others may not say it, I appreciate the guys/gals who take care of the paperwork...  It's the one thing that noone ever wants to do...  Keep up the good work!  You are a very important part of this organization!   :clap:

Well, thank you.  I do appreciate that.  You're one of the few to notice, let alone give me the attaboy you just did.

Quote from: Duke Dillio on April 03, 2013, 04:09:43 AM
As to the ribbons, who really cares?  It is this mindset that casts foulness into the organization.  If someone wants to troll for ribbons, why should you care?  If they earned it and they provide the proof, just sign the form and move on.  We all know there are people out there who want chest candy.  If they are doing their job, let them have it.

Point taken, but I'm not in a position of command (though I am a former Deputy Commander) and not in a position to provide such sign-offs.  What irritates me a bit are those who haven't even got their 2nd Lieutenant yet, who have probably just passed Level I, and are already wearing CommComms and Achievement Ribbons (sometimes multiple)...just for "knowing the right people" or glad-handing, making sure Group/Wing knows who they are, etc.  Perhaps I'm just too reserved to be able to do that sort of thing; it's very alien to my nature and upbringing.

Quote from: Duke Dillio on April 03, 2013, 04:09:43 AM
I am getting really irritated with people who think that awarding a ribbon "cheapens" it. 

Depending on circumstances/personages involved, I am too.  Call me cynical, but I just don't see how a new member with less than six months in the organisation can be wearing Achievement Awards and CommComms.  My first CAP ribbon was the Membership Ribbon, which I got just before I got pinned 2nd Lieutenant, and I was bloody surprised to get that.

Quote from: Duke Dillio on April 03, 2013, 04:09:43 AM
In my 20 years with this organization, I have only considered one person to have really "cheapened" any award and that was when HWSNBN gave himself and some others a SMV for watching a traffic accident. 

As you know, he did much more than that to cheapen not just awards, but CAP as a whole.  And the one good idea he did have, the CSU, got taken away for reasons unknown.

Quote from: Duke Dillio on April 03, 2013, 04:09:43 AM
When I went through UCC, they told us (the students) that the awards committee was getting bored and that we should praise our people by recommending awards for them.  Unfortunately, we have a "Keeper of the Key" on the committee who blocks everything unless you commit an act of bravery that would get you the MoH, and then you might still get disapproved for an Achievement Award.  The "keepers of the key" who won't process awards for the "cheapening" need to find a new mall to cop.  I can't even get COMCOM's for people who really deserve them because of our "keeper of the key".  There was another one in CA who wouldn't process an award unless he had one (he's gone now I think).

I dealt with one of those "gatekeepers" long ago in CAP...if not for that person, I would probably be a Lieutenant Colonel today.  This wing PD officer would not accept a signed letter from the commander of another wing attesting he saw me participating in an activity in his wing!  The wingco knew this person was wrong (and told me as much) but for whatever reason he wouldn't rock the boat with it (nor would my then-Squadron CC).  That led to one of my two departures from CAP.

As I've said, I really don't like to give the impression that I'm trolling for ribbons, rank, etc., but more than one person has told me from my first day in CAP almost 20 years ago that is how we are "paid."

How can someone with less than Six months in be wearing a Comm Comm & Achievment awards? To me that sounds like no one in there unit was top shot as that SM. I got two ribbons the Membership and the Yeager. Do i wish i had more? Yes, but if i got a Comm Comm or Achievment award and the people i know that work with cadets or run ES or the Chaplain dont get one, why am i complaining? I am working on the CSR. I am part of the Redcross, Team Rubicon, and Habitat for Humanity, which i just started so im no were near the 60 hours needed. If i could count my volunteer hours before CAP (which i Cant) i would have gold stars on my CSR, the older i get, the harder it is to do community service.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 04, 2013, 03:58:15 PM
How can someone with less than Six months in be wearing a Comm Comm & Achievement awards?

Staff an encampment, work on a large-scale project, deploy to a disaster area, fix a failed-high visibility process, assume a staff position no one else wants
and turn an inspection from "Unsat" to "Excellent" in one click, be instrumental in procuring a significant resource like a building, vehicle or grant, etc., etc.

Happens all the time, I've signed some of them.  Generally it is because of people who are able to open the door when opportunity knocks.
That takes preparation, training, and the willingness to forgo other activities, family vacations, and sometimes work$$ to serve in CAP.
Opportunity is many times a chance situation, and not everyone can take advantage of all the opportunities, but if you avail yourself of
the entire CAP buffet, not just a single menu page, they come around more often then many people think.

When I first joined, I was told "no one ever gets the DR-V" around here.  By the time I was a Group CC myself, I had one member who received
3 in less then a calendar year, along with the commendations that accompanied the service.

With that said, I throw the flag on too many butter bars wearing multiple decs, especially comm-comms.  Has it happend, I'm sure.  Often enough to view
as anything more then "???".  No way.

Would any of you consider another scenario?

Someone rejoining after a long abscence.

Since they earned all that tuti-fruti before, they can wear it. However their grade reinstaement is denied by current authorities. They have to earn the grade anew.

Flyer

That is understandable, I am a part of alot of things in CAP, you should see my 101 Card. Does that mean i need a Comm Comm? No. I have only had the chance to go on one Mission, but it was cancelled. So that being said, unless your in a really active unit, or you love to brownnose, i dont see it often.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 04, 2013, 07:33:35 PM
That is understandable, I am a part of alot of things in CAP, you should see my 101 Card. Does that mean i need a Comm Comm? No. I have only had the chance to go on one Mission, but it was cancelled. So that being said, unless your in a really active unit, or you love to brownnose, i dont see it often.

If you're only active at the unit level, your odds of receiving decorations are going to me lower then if you venture out.  Why?  Well, for starters,
most of the decs indicate that "doing your job well", isn't necessarily grounds for the award.  A baseline expectation of membership
is regularly attending meetings and serving some sort of staff or operational role (in fact, if you're in CAP as an adult and don't do at least one
of those things, one wonders why you are a member).  That service, in and of itself, puts our members a cut above their couch-surfing neighbors,
but it doesn't rise to the level of comparative excellence among peers.

Doing it well for a long time, or under special circumstances, sometimes, but it is difficult to standout from peers when you're all doing the same thing.
Appreciated, vital to the organization, but hard to characterize for a 120.

Unit level is the only way to serve? Encampments have to take vacation off work, doing stuff for the wing? Dont liv close enough. I do Participate in almost every function, but if it requires overnight, kinda harder to do.

How can you do stuff besides on unit level that what i have mentioned?

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 04, 2013, 09:53:03 PM
How can you do stuff besides on unit level that what i have mentioned?

Assuming I understand the question, the answer might be "you can't", and there's nothing wrong with that.  Everyone has their personal limitations
of time and circumstance, and maybe the unit level is where you can have the most impact - that's great.  The unit is where CAP needs the most people.

Quote from: C/MSGT Montez on April 01, 2013, 09:17:13 AM
For my ribbon, I volunteered at my local church doing landscaping and all that jazz. When me and the pastor calculated my total, I had at least 60 hours. So he wrote a letter stating I had completed 60 hours of volunteer service doing (x), then signed it.

I didn't choose to go out and ask the pastor if I could do volunteer work for the church. I happened to already be doing that, well before I even joined CAP. It just happened to work out that I had enough hours for the CSR since I had joined CAP.

Quote from: flyer333555 on April 04, 2013, 06:03:11 PM
Would any of you consider another scenario?

Someone rejoining after a long abscence.

Since they earned all that tuti-fruti before, they can wear it. However their grade reinstaement is denied by current authorities. They have to earn the grade anew.

Flyer

When I last rejoined, I offered to do that...rejoin as an SMWOG and work back up the ladder.  However, my then-CC got my grade of Captain reinstated.  I almost wish it had been denied.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 04, 2013, 10:14:02 PM
Assuming I understand the question, the answer might be "you can't", and there's nothing wrong with that.  Everyone has their personal limitations
of time and circumstance, and maybe the unit level is where you can have the most impact - that's great.  The unit is where CAP needs the most people.

Which is my dilemma as well, though for somewhat different reasons.

However, as Eclipse has said, it doesn't mean a lot in terms of earning awards.

In that respect, I feel a bit like a hamster on a wheel.  Running on that wheel may generate power at the local level, but you're still not getting anywhere.

I live in a large wing/state.  There are people who are able to come from the other side of the galaxy wing on a regular basis (mostly pilots) and do all this stuff/make their presence known/brown-nose/kiss up/whatever.

As Devil Doc and myself have both said, for some members that just is not feasible/possible...so I suppose we're kind of "second-tier" in terms of membership.

Quote from: flyer333555 on April 04, 2013, 06:03:11 PM
Would any of you consider another scenario?

Someone rejoining after a long abscence.

Since they earned all that tuti-fruti before, they can wear it. However their grade reinstaement is denied by current authorities. They have to earn the grade anew.

Flyer

When I rejoined in 2009 after an absence of some 12 years, my Squadron CC put the request to reinstate my grade through channels.  The Wing CC held it up, suggesting that I be appointed a major instead of a lieutenant colonel - and that I re-earn the promotion.  The Squadron CC went to bat for me; he'd recruited me from my retirement and explained that he didn't want me to have to do that.  I don't know how much political capital he had to expend, but the Wing CC backed down and okayed the grade reinstatement.

Jack

I don't get why reinstatement is such an issue...

Two members started questioning how could a member of six months have a lot of tutti-fruti including a Com Com. To the point of suggesting contempt towards that member. Or maybe I interpreted it that way. I just stated a possible scenario where those members with that much tutti could have apparently minimal service: no reinstatement.

Flyer

Quote from: flyer333555 on April 05, 2013, 07:14:09 PM
Two members started questioning how could a member of six months have a lot of tutti-fruti including a Com Com. To the point of suggesting contempt towards that member. Or maybe I interpreted it that way. I just stated a possible scenario where those members with that much tutti could have apparently minimal service: no reinstatement.

Flyer

Which would not explain.......Why? and how come?

Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 05, 2013, 07:04:55 PM
I don't get why reinstatement is such an issue...

I don't know why either.  It's not like there are a finite number of positions at each grade.  The Rank only shows length of service associated with completion of professional development requirements.  Just because they have let their membership lapse for a while because sometimes life gets in the way doesn't mean they haven't earned it.

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 05, 2013, 03:52:46 PM
When I rejoined in 2009 after an absence of some 12 years, my Squadron CC put the request to reinstate my grade through channels.  The Wing CC held it up, suggesting that I be appointed a major instead of a lieutenant colonel - and that I re-earn the promotion.

The Wing Commander isn't required to reinstate the grade but there is nothing that states he can just substitute a lower grade either such as the example above.  Either he/she reinstates the Grade or not.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 05, 2013, 07:24:52 PM

Quote from: flyer333555 on April 05, 2013, 07:14:09 PM
Two members started questioning how could a member of six months have a lot of tutti-fruti including a Com Com. To the point of suggesting contempt towards that member. Or maybe I interpreted it that way. I just stated a possible scenario where those members with that much tutti could have apparently minimal service: no reinstatement.

Flyer

Which would not explain.......Why? and how come?

I offered an explanation as well.

Quote from: SARDOC on April 05, 2013, 07:32:30 PM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 05, 2013, 07:04:55 PM
I don't get why reinstatement is such an issue...

I don't know why either.  It's not like there are a finite number of positions at each grade.  The Rank only shows length of service associated with completion of professional development requirements.  Just because they have let their membership lapse for a while because sometimes life gets in the way doesn't mean they haven't earned it.

Well, for starters, define "while".

Someone who quit in 1999 and comes back today would have difficulty recognizing CAP.  If promotions are based on Professional Development, which itself is supposed
to be a gauge of progress activity and experience, then if what you "know" isn't relevent, then on what basis is the grade still conferred?

SLS/CLC/TLC(new)/UCC many of the tracks, and nearly every regulation, process, and program have undergone substantial change in that 10 year period.
Is someone who was reasonably active in 1999 capable of just picking up where they left off in terms of value to the organization, or are they going to
take a year or two to get back up to speed?

I'd say that's at least a reasonable position to hold.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2013, 07:59:53 PM

Quote from: SARDOC on April 05, 2013, 07:32:30 PM

Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 05, 2013, 07:04:55 PM
I don't get why reinstatement is such an issue...

I don't know why either.  It's not like there are a finite number of positions at each grade.  The Rank only shows length of service associated with completion of professional development requirements.  Just because they have let their membership lapse for a while because sometimes life gets in the way doesn't mean they haven't earned it.

Well, for starters, define "while".

Someone who quit in 1999 and comes back today would have difficulty recognizing CAP.  If promotions are based on Professional Development, which itself is supposed
to be a gauge of progress activity and experience, then if what you "know" isn't relevent, then on what basis is the grade still conferred?

SLS/CLC/TLC(new)/UCC many of the tracks, and nearly every regulation, process, and program have undergone substantial change in that 10 year period.
Is someone who was reasonably active in 1999 capable of just picking up where they left off in terms of value to the organization, or are they going to
take a year or two to get back up to speed?

I'd say that's at least a reasonable position to hold.

I left in 2006 and came back on 2012 and I hardly recognized things from a PD standpoint. Everything had changed quite a bit, even Level One. I finished that up in less than a week, but it was interesting how much things had changed since I first went through in 1992.

Devil and Eclipse-

In re-reading your comments before my posting regarding the ComComs and your answers to this posting, I guess that your questions on "how come a member with low service can have that much tutti," were more of the rhetorical kind of question.

Sorry to have misunderstood your initial posting.

Flyer

Not so hypothetical situation:

Member 'A' lets his membership lapse for 10 years and then decides to participate due to a change in life circumstances. He does all the necessary paperwork, and maybe gets his rank reinstated.

Member 'B' just stops participating for the same 10 years, paying dues every year, and keeping current(?) through the monthly rag. He has no paperwork to do, and is just as clueless about changes in the program.

In practicality, what's the difference?

Quote from: SarDragon on April 05, 2013, 08:33:04 PM
In practicality, what's the difference?

Nothing but the rules, such that they are.

You could make the argument that at least member "B" was a financial supporter for that time.
Also, if he was able to keep currently monthly, meaning all required safety briefs, etc., then he's not really "clueless", since
he's at least been in the system every month.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2013, 08:41:34 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on April 05, 2013, 08:33:04 PM
In practicality, what's the difference?

Nothing but the rules, such that they are.

You could make the argument that at least member "B" was a financial supporter for that time.
Also, if he was able to keep currently monthly, meaning all required safety briefs, etc., then he's not really "clueless", since
he's at least been in the system every month.

Financial Supporter, Yes...but as a Patron Member there is no required safety briefings or activities but their grade is reinstated upon coming active again.  Yes, SLS/CLC/UCC and other PD requirements change over time but there is no requirement that having let your membership lapse that you would have to take those courses again.  If I left for ten years came back and provided proof that I attended SLS in 1992 when I first became a CAP Senior Member...I still wouldn't be required to take it again.  They don't expire for Professional Development purposes.

I think as an active member you probably should retake this courses periodically just to make sure things are done consistently across the organization but there is nothing in 50-17 that requires that. 

We don't have a finite number of positions and there is no actually authority associated with ranks so if someone who has previously completed advanced professional development awards...why shouldn't they have their grade reinstated.  We have Lieutenant Colonels who have only completed Level One because of their Military Experience and know absolutely nothing about Civil Air Patrol Operations.  So why wouldn't we also recognize the achievements of one of our own prior members...if after all we value the efforts of our members both past and present.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2013, 08:41:34 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on April 05, 2013, 08:33:04 PM
In practicality, what's the difference?

Nothing but the rules, such that they are.

You could make the argument that at least member "B" was a financial supporter for that time.
Also, if he was able to keep currently monthly, meaning all required safety briefs, etc., then he's not really "clueless", since
he's at least been in the system every month.

This happened long before safety briefings, and the other monthly "gotta-haves" now in place. No eServices, either. 1989-1999

I know - hey, rules is rules.

Write a check and don't be a PITA for the commander, maintain everything.

Don't and do, not so much.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2013, 07:59:53 PM
Someone who quit in 1999 and comes back today would have difficulty recognizing CAP.  If promotions are based on Professional Development, which itself is supposed
to be a gauge of progress activity and experience, then if what you "know" isn't relevent, then on what basis is the grade still conferred?

Which is one reason I offered to climb the ladder again when I rejoined almost four years ago.  That included not wearing the ribbons I had earned previously.

I had a very strong feeling that my "ancient history" accomplishments in CAP would hobble me in the here and now, and I was right.  When I was recently denied promotion, I was told that one reason (there were others, very personal, that some here are privy to, I won't get into them) was that it was because the "sell-by" date of said accomplishments was long past.

SLS - 1994
CLC - 1994
ECI 13 - 1995
Yeager - 1997
Instructor, SLS - 2006
Master rating - 2004

You get the idea.

People at both the squadron and wing level thought I was nuts (for not actively campaigning to get my old rank back.

Even so, now, I have tried to re-take some of this stuff; i.e. OBC...but E-Services tells me I don't need it!

So it's hanged if you do or if you don't.

If it's in eServices, it's there. The system doesn't care.

As for "sell-by" dates, the Yeager's the Yeager; no need to re-do it. OBC - as long as the demand exceeds the supply, there won't be many people retaking it, even if it would be beneficial. SLS and CLC - download the lecture and student material, and refresh yourself.

Master rating - do the same, bring yourself up to date. The basic knowledge and skills should still be there.

Instructor - once you've done it, it's done. There's no reason you can't do it again if you want, though. I'm certainly working on doing it again, because I like to do it, and have decent competency.

Don't construct personal obstacles for yourself. It doesn't do anyone any good.

Quote from: SARDOC on April 05, 2013, 09:41:54 PM
I think as an active member you probably should retake this courses periodically just to make sure things are done consistently across the organization but there is nothing in 50-17 that requires that. 

I agree, but think it would be better to come back to the course as an instructor. The first semester I taught a college class I was filling in last minute for a personnel shortage. The class covered software I had used for 10 years at that point. I used this app 30 hours a week, but when I had to step back and really teach it so that others could do what I did, a whole new level of proficiency and expertise developed. I always ask and encourage newer qual'ed ES students to help teach the next group (at their own pace), so they can really grasp hold of the content.

Quote from: Walkman on April 06, 2013, 04:57:59 AM

Quote from: SARDOC on April 05, 2013, 09:41:54 PM
I think as an active member you probably should retake this courses periodically just to make sure things are done consistently across the organization but there is nothing in 50-17 that requires that. 

I agree, but think it would be better to come back to the course as an instructor. The first semester I taught a college class I was filling in last minute for a personnel shortage. The class covered software I had used for 10 years at that point. I used this app 30 hours a week, but when I had to step back and really teach it so that others could do what I did, a whole new level of proficiency and expertise developed. I always ask and encourage newer qual'ed ES students to help teach the next group (at their own pace), so they can really grasp hold of the content.

I also agree that is the best course of action but that is not an option for everyone.  For tasks I usually follow the "Watch One, Do One, Teach One" Philosophy for students to completely understand they've completely grasped the concept.  For Members who have been out and inactive for a prolonged period of time should retake them as students before teaching them though.

I'm of two minds about the "retaking the courses" discussion.

On the one hand, those who've said that people (like me) who spent a prolonged period away from active CAP membership should refresh themselves on the way things are done now are right.  After all, many things changed between 1997, when I retired, and 2009, when I rejoined.  And it was my responsibility to bring myself up to date on as much as I needed.

However, as CyBorg points out, once something is entered into E-Services, earning the ratings (or whatever) again is difficult.  If you are already listed as having the training, the system won't accept anything contradictory - such as getting the training again.

I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.  I earned my GRW in 1991.  As we all know, that means that I completed the five-level Civil Air Patrol Professional Development program.  Upon my becoming an active member again, I had to go through Level I again, primarily because many things did indeed change while I was away.  I don't, however, think I should have to re-do all of my Level II, III, IV, and V training just to achieve a fresher "date" on my awards.  (The various specialties in which I previously had Master ratings I am re-doing, but primarily to be proficient in those specialties again.  It sure ain't for the bling.) 

And SarDoc - you're right.  The Wing CC's sole call was approve my reinstatement as a lieutenant colonel or not; nothing in the regulations allowed him to decide I should come back in at a lower grade than I had earned and have to earn it again.  I think that my Squadron CC pointed that out to him.

Jack

This situation almost screams for specialty ratings that expire. 

If you've been home for 20 years, come back, and consider yourself a cadet program expert, you have another thing coming.  Taking TLC would be a good refresher to get your rating current again.

However, not every specialty has a cool course like that which would bring someone up to speed on the current programs.  Keep your do-dads or whatnot, but before working in the specialty (assigned) you need to get your rating up to date.

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 06, 2013, 02:53:28 PM
I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 06, 2013, 03:31:42 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 06, 2013, 02:53:28 PM
I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

I think you're being sold a bill of goods there.  Careful review of the regulations cites the requirements for promotion, but (unless I missed something) there's no requirement that the achievement be accomplished by a specific date. 

For example, if a member completes his Loening in 2008, but isn't eligible for promotion to major until 2012, does that mean he's not promotable?  Not at all.  The regs cite what PD level must be achieved; there's nothing in there that says "must be achieved within the past X years."

I'd inquire with higher HQ if that's the stated reason for your being denied promotion.  This sounds similar to what my Wing CC tried to do with me when I rejoined in 2009.

Jack

Quote from: jimmydeanno on April 06, 2013, 03:00:21 PM
This situation almost screams for specialty ratings that expire. 

If you've been home for 20 years, come back, and consider yourself a cadet program expert, you have another thing coming.  Taking TLC would be a good refresher to get your rating current again.

However, not every specialty has a cool course like that which would bring someone up to speed on the current programs.  Keep your do-dads or whatnot, but before working in the specialty (assigned) you need to get your rating up to date.

100% concur!  And that's what I did...at least in the areas where I was assigned when I came back.  As for the others, I'm re-acquiring the skills as I have spare time.

Jack

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 06, 2013, 03:35:04 PM

Quote from: CyBorg on April 06, 2013, 03:31:42 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 06, 2013, 02:53:28 PM
I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

I think you're being sold a bill of goods there.  Careful review of the regulations cites the requirements for promotion, but (unless I missed something) there's no requirement that the achievement be accomplished by a specific date. 

For example, if a member completes his Loening in 2008, but isn't eligible for promotion to major until 2012, does that mean he's not promotable?  Not at all.  The regs cite what PD level must be achieved; there's nothing in there that says "must be achieved within the past X years."

I'd inquire with higher HQ if that's the stated reason for your being denied promotion.

Jack

There's more, sir, but not what I wish to go into here.  PM sent.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 06, 2013, 03:31:42 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 06, 2013, 02:53:28 PM
I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

As a Group Commander and a Squadron Commander I had people leave and come back. If you left in 2006 and you came back in 2009. When I reinstated people to their previous grade I told them up front your time begins "today" for that next promotion. Not a date of rank from 2003 and some how they think they have been a Captain for ten years. 

So in my book if I reinstated you to Captain on 4-1-2009 you will be up for Major on 4-1-2012, 'with' your Unit Commanders approval. 

Quote from: CyBorg on April 06, 2013, 03:10:08 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2013, 07:59:53 PM
Someone who quit in 1999 and comes back today would have difficulty recognizing CAP.  If promotions are based on Professional Development, which itself is supposed
to be a gauge of progress activity and experience, then if what you "know" isn't relevent, then on what basis is the grade still conferred?

Which is one reason I offered to climb the ladder again when I rejoined almost four years ago.  That included not wearing the ribbons I had earned previously.

I had a very strong feeling that my "ancient history" accomplishments in CAP would hobble me in the here and now, and I was right.  When I was recently denied promotion, I was told that one reason (there were others, very personal, that some here are privy to, I won't get into them) was that it was because the "sell-by" date of said accomplishments was long past.

SLS - 1994
CLC - 1994
ECI 13 - 1995
Yeager - 1997
Instructor, SLS - 2006
Master rating - 2004

You get the idea.

People at both the squadron and wing level thought I was nuts (for not actively campaigning to get my old rank back.

Even so, now, I have tried to re-take some of this stuff; i.e. OBC...but E-Services tells me I don't need it!

So it's hanged if you do or if you don't.

I can see how someone with an extended absence might be rusty on some of the information they once had. If I were the unit commander involved, I would have the member rejoining brush up on the relevant material, and engage in some conversations as related to PD courses, and specialty ratings. Perhaps some summary conversations with others in a specialty track, or a mini SLS type activity for unit review. All of this BEFORE submitting a request for reinstatement of grade. This would demonstrate proficiency at current expectations, without needing to start at square 1. With regard to awards and decorations previously earned... if there is proof of award available I don't see why they can't be worn.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 06, 2013, 03:31:42 PM
Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

Likewise with a request for promotion, I would work to demonstrate the member's proficiency in the required areas. If one is seeking promotion to Maj based on "outdated" level III PD courses, or specialty track ratings, this would be helpful. It is also important to remember that these represent the minimum qualifications for the promotion. If this request is coming shortly after a member rejoins from an extended absence, there might be some questions at the Wing level. Although if you rejoined as Capt. in 2009, you should have TIG covered. Including information on what the member is doing for the unit, or plans to do in the future can help overcome this resistance.

As a general rule, it is good to anticipate potential roadblocks and work to overcome them in advance. If you can eliminate potential points of contention, you can help prevent people from making decisions based on assumption or personal bias.

These are just my thoughts on situations like these. It sounds to me like you got arbitrarily hosed here. I would certainly appeal this decision, or resubmit the request with additional information included. If you possess the required skills and knowledge it shouldn't matter what date is stamped on your qualifications.

So the question is....... What made you guys that left, retired ETC. Come back?

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 06, 2013, 05:31:59 PM
So the question is....... What made you guys that left, retired ETC. Come back?

You will not believe some of the stories. Usually disagreement on who was selected for Unit Commander or who was overlooked for a award.

Sometimes a job will relocate you to a place where CAP does not exist. So why maintain a membership when you are doing a few years on the North Pole? Then you get relocated again a few years later and decide to get back into it.

Quote from: Private Investigator on April 06, 2013, 05:23:38 PM
So in my book if I reinstated you to Captain on 4-1-2009 you will be up for Major on 4-1-2012, 'with' your Unit Commanders approval.

That's the way I viewed it, too.

Quote from: mwewing on April 06, 2013, 05:30:53 PM
I can see how someone with an extended absence might be rusty on some of the information they once had. If I were the unit commander involved, I would have the member rejoining brush up on the relevant material, and engage in some conversations as related to PD courses, and specialty ratings. Perhaps some summary conversations with others in a specialty track, or a mini SLS type activity for unit review. All of this BEFORE submitting a request for reinstatement of grade.

Reasonable enough.  I would not have minded such a review when I rejoined almost four years ago.  All I got was the standard Level I/CPPT/OPSEC, all of which I could almost do in my sleep.

Quote from: mwewing on April 06, 2013, 05:30:53 PM
With regard to awards and decorations previously earned... if there is proof of award available I don't see why they can't be worn.

Almost all in E-Services, and what isn't (from before such technological days) I had paper documentation of, including my very first membership application from 1993.

Quote from: mwewing on April 06, 2013, 05:30:53 PM
Likewise with a request for promotion, I would work to demonstrate the member's proficiency in the required areas. If one is seeking promotion to Maj based on "outdated" level III PD courses, or specialty track ratings, this would be helpful. It is also important to remember that these represent the minimum qualifications for the promotion. If this request is coming shortly after a member rejoins from an extended absence, there might be some questions at the Wing level. Although if you rejoined as Capt. in 2009, you should have TIG covered. Including information on what the member is doing for the unit, or plans to do in the future can help overcome this resistance.

I had TIG, Level III completed, etc., but as some on CT know, I have some health issues that keep me from being as "active" as others.  It is an extremely active Squadron/Group; many of my colleagues have a "work/CAP/everything else" hierarchy.

Quote from: mwewing on April 06, 2013, 05:30:53 PM
As a general rule, it is good to anticipate potential roadblocks and work to overcome them in advance. If you can eliminate potential points of contention, you can help prevent people from making decisions based on assumption or personal bias.

I tried to do that as well.  If "personal bias" is involved, there's precious little I can do about that.  If someone's got a downer on you, they've got a downer on you, and I'm not going to get on my knees and beg to try and overcome that.

I know one thing: I am never going to initiate a request for promotion again.  Doing so on my own behalf this time was completely out-of-the-box for me, and to have it refused...they could have included a jar of Vaseline, anyway.  I doubt I will ever see another promotion/ribbon, but at least I only have a couple of years left before I can apply for "retirement."  Hopefully I won't be denied that.

Quote from: mwewing on April 06, 2013, 05:30:53 PM
These are just my thoughts on situations like these. It sounds to me like you got arbitrarily hosed here. I would certainly appeal this decision, or resubmit the request with additional information included. If you possess the required skills and knowledge it shouldn't matter what date is stamped on your qualifications.

I have enough experience in CAP politics to make me very, very wary of doing that.  I have appealed to higher authority before (admittedly in another wing) and almost found myself staring down a 2B.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 06, 2013, 05:31:59 PM
So the question is....... What made you guys that left, retired ETC. Come back?

With me?  Politics, GOBN and the inability to brown-nose for leaving.  Coming back?  It's just been part of my life for so long, and I would run into someone in CAP who would say "rejoin, we really need someone with your experience!"  Funny, that...and more fool me for falling for it, I suppose.

On the subject or re-doing all your training due to a break in service.......I don't know if it really helps or not.

On the one hand it makes sense because you have to break off the rust.  On the other hand......if it is a road block to getting old members back into CAP (I'd rejoin but I don't want to start as an SM again) then maybe we should not push it too hard.

Just look at who we give advanced promotions to in the first place.

Add to that the fact that even with out a break in service.......specialty rateings don't expire.....that is get a masters in CAP in your first three years in CAP......and then you switch over to some other area......that master rateing is still good for level IV and Lt Col even if you have not done CP for 3-4 years.

A lot of this ties into the arguments we have over promotions and grade in CAP anyways.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 06, 2013, 05:59:02 PM
Just look at who we give advanced promotions to in the first place.

Yes, we're certainly more generous with those than the RealMilitary.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 06, 2013, 05:59:02 PM
Add to that the fact that even with out a break in service.......specialty rateings don't expire.....that is get a masters in CAP in your first three years in CAP......and then you switch over to some other area......that master rateing is still good for level IV and Lt Col even if you have not done CP for 3-4 years.

That's not what I was told, Master Sergeant.  I was told that I was applying for promotion based on the "past," not the "now."

From all I've read, I've reached this conclusion:

CyBorg is getting hosed, and there's something about it that stinks.  Someone in his chain of command is playing fast and loose with the regs.

Jack

Quote from: CyBorg on April 06, 2013, 03:31:42 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 06, 2013, 02:53:28 PM
I'm a little confused about the "sell-by" date reference, though.

Basically, I have been told that although I had all the qualifications (including Level III/Loening completed in 2004), due to the time passed since the accomplishments, they were not acceptable in the "here and now" in terms of promotability.

I had been out for three years (2006-2009) before coming back into CAP.

Unfortunately, the Senior Member Training Report only shows the first time you attended the course, not the latest or repeat courses.

Mine shows OBC (ECI-7)-1972, SLS 1984CLC-1984, Yeager-1983, and RSC 1984, and NSC 1985. I guess I wouldn't get promoted in your Wing either.

^ You can get those changed if you are so inclined.  It just takes a memo to NHQ.

It's not generally necessary, but it is possible.

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 07, 2013, 02:49:38 AM
From all I've read, I've reached this conclusion:

CyBorg is getting hosed, and there's something about it that stinks.  Someone in his chain of command is playing fast and loose with the regs.

Jack

I agree. If I was CyBorg's Skipper he would be promoted. "Someone" needs to be fixed.

Quote from: Private Investigator on April 07, 2013, 04:41:16 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 07, 2013, 02:49:38 AM
From all I've read, I've reached this conclusion:

CyBorg is getting hosed, and there's something about it that stinks.  Someone in his chain of command is playing fast and loose with the regs.

Jack

I agree. If I was CyBorg's Skipper he would be promoted. "Someone" needs to be fixed.

We're venturing into PERSEC, and discussing things he hasn't posted openly.  Suffice to say that in this case it is not the Unit CC's call.
Major is a wing-level approval, so his CC's opinion only goes so far.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 07, 2013, 04:51:44 PM

Quote from: Private Investigator on April 07, 2013, 04:41:16 PM

Quote from: ColonelJack on April 07, 2013, 02:49:38 AM
From all I've read, I've reached this conclusion:

CyBorg is getting hosed, and there's something about it that stinks.  Someone in his chain of command is playing fast and loose with the regs.

Jack

I agree. If I was CyBorg's Skipper he would be promoted. "Someone" needs to be fixed.

We're venturing into PERSEC, and discussing things he hasn't posted openly.  Suffice to say that in this case it is not the Unit CC's call.
Major is a wing-level approval, so his CC's opinion only goes so far.

As a Group Commander Emeritus I would take it up with the chain of command. I have heard some pretty silly reasons why people have not been promoted in CAP.

I'm a fresh Capt, 23, and already seen some of the BS from wing level about "standards" for Major, to make it mean more from folks who are  O4/O5 under the GOBN days keeping others down...when good, active Captains and Majorsdoubt if they will ever get the next promotion because of wing policies outside of what is required, it is a problem.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 07, 2013, 04:51:44 PM
We're venturing into PERSEC, and discussing things he hasn't posted openly.  Suffice to say that in this case it is not the Unit CC's call.
Major is a wing-level approval, so his CC's opinion only goes so far.

In this case, as many know, it didn't even get past Group.  Wing has no idea of the situation, as far as I know.

I was told that it was halted at the squadron after conversations with Group, because Group said there was no way Wing would accept it.

My membership is up in June.  I'll be [darn]ed if I kneel and beg to get a gold oak leaf just because someone up the line may have prejudices that I stand no chance of overcoming anyway.

I've talked about this with others in CAP...usually the standard response is "promotions are not guaranteed" and "Membership in Civil Air Patrol is a privilege, not a right."

When in doubt, restate the obvious. ::)

Quote from: CyBorg on April 07, 2013, 09:37:57 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on April 07, 2013, 04:51:44 PM
We're venturing into PERSEC, and discussing things he hasn't posted openly.  Suffice to say that in this case it is not the Unit CC's call.
Major is a wing-level approval, so his CC's opinion only goes so far.

In this case, as many know, it didn't even get past Group.  Wing has no idea of the situation, as far as I know.

I was told that it was halted at the squadron after conversations with Group, because Group said there was no way Wing would accept it.

My membership is up in June.  I'll be [darn]ed if I kneel and beg to get a gold oak leaf just because someone up the line may have prejudices that I stand no chance of overcoming anyway.

I am truly sorry that you are having such a difficult time in trying to attain your Major, but I am reminded of something my Great Grandfather taught me.  If you are unwilling to stand up and defend yourself to the best of your abilities, then why should someone else do it for you.  No one is saying you need to kneel let alone beg for what you believe is your due, but you have to at least present your reasons for justification in a rational manner to those who may be seeing that if you don't believe it why should they.  I hope it does all work out for you.

Quote from: spaatzmom on April 07, 2013, 09:46:27 PM
I am truly sorry that you are having such a difficult time in trying to attain your Major, but I am reminded of something my Great Grandfather taught me.  If you are unwilling to stand up and defend yourself to the best of your abilities, then why should someone else do it for you.  No one is saying you need to kneel let alone beg for what you believe is your due, but you have to at least present your reasons for justification in a rational manner to those who may be seeing that if you don't believe it why should they.  I hope it does all work out for you.

If you knew the situation, you would know that I have presented my case in a "rational" manner.  I'm not going to post the correspondence I've written here.  Suffice it to say that it has to do with possible discrimination issues that the powers-that-be are unequipped to deal with and/or don't have the willingness to deal with.

If you knew me, you would know that you do not need to encourage me of your Great-Grandfather's opinion.  I grew up fighting.  My dad (Army veteran) always said to me, "don't go stirring up trouble, but don't kiss anyone's butt either."  I tend to be a very reserved person, but I will not willingly lie down and be kicked.

The problem with taking such an attitude in CAP is the bloody GOBN.  Tick the "wrong" people off and at worst you can be 2B'd; at best, you will remain exactly where you are for the rest of your time in CAP.  I have seen it too many times in almost 20 years.

Don't worry...if I get to the point where I feel like I've nothing left to lose I'll take it directly to the national CC.  After all, there is the "ask the National Commander a question" function on E-Services.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 06, 2013, 11:40:07 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on April 06, 2013, 05:59:02 PM
Just look at who we give advanced promotions to in the first place.

Yes, we're certainly more generous with those than the RealMilitary.

Yes...but we are not the RealMilitary.......and you would be suprised who the real military gives advanced promotions to.

Quote

Quote from: lordmonar on April 06, 2013, 05:59:02 PM
Add to that the fact that even with out a break in service.......specialty rateings don't expire.....that is get a masters in CAP in your first three years in CAP......and then you switch over to some other area......that master rateing is still good for level IV and Lt Col even if you have not done CP for 3-4 years.

That's not what I was told, Master Sergeant.  I was told that I was applying for promotion based on the "past," not the "now."

If you took the chip off your shoulder.....maybe you would get promoted.   If your promotion is held up at group....that means the real problem is that your squadron commander is not willing to go to bat for you.......and I can think where that comes from.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 07, 2013, 09:58:27 PM
If you took the chip off your shoulder.....maybe you would get promoted.   If your promotion is held up at group....that means the real problem is that your squadron commander is not willing to go to bat for you.......and I can think where that comes from.

Master Sergeant, I respect you and your opinions, but in this case you do not know the situation.  It is reflexive, not deductive, to falsely assume a "chip on the shoulder" when you are not fully aware of the circumstances...no matter how similar it may seem to situations in your own experience.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 07, 2013, 09:59:59 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on April 07, 2013, 09:58:27 PM
If you took the chip off your shoulder.....maybe you would get promoted.   If your promotion is held up at group....that means the real problem is that your squadron commander is not willing to go to bat for you.......and I can think where that comes from.

Master Sergeant, I respect you and your opinions, but in this case you do not know the situation.  It is reflexive, not deductive, to falsely assume a "chip on the shoulder" when you are not fully aware of the circumstances...no matter how similar it may seem to situations in your own experience.

Call them like I see them Captain.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 07, 2013, 10:05:23 PM
Call them like I see them Captain.

So noted.  Thus far you are the only one to express such an opinion of my situation.

You, of course, have a right to your opinion, uninformed though it may be, and I have a right to disregard it, truculent though that may seem.

Has Group given a written response to the application? As they're supposed to? Or was it a conversation between Group and your commander. Ask for a written explanation. Simply saying that we turned it down, because we think the Wing will, is not a valid excuse.

Quote from: MSG Mac on April 07, 2013, 11:00:26 PM
Has Group given a written response to the application? As they're supposed to? Or was it a conversation between Group and your commander. Ask for a written explanation. Simply saying that we turned it down, because we think the Wing will, is not a valid excuse.

No, they have not.  And I did write a detailed enquiry to the Group Commander asking for just that - a written explanation.

The only written explanation came from the promotion board at my Squadron, and my CC told me of his conversation with Group CC.

Quote from: usafaux2004 on April 07, 2013, 08:16:55 PM
I'm a fresh Capt, 23, and already seen some of the BS from wing level about "standards" for Major, to make it mean more from folks who are  O4/O5 under the GOBN days keeping others down...when good, active Captains and Majorsdoubt if they will ever get the next promotion because of wing policies outside of what is required, it is a problem.

That happens all over CAP. GOBN keeping 23 year old Captains from advancing but the next Wing over GOBN keeping 75 year old Captains from advancing. CAP is really lacking team effort. It is getting like little league. You can be the worst player on the team but if your dad is the manager you get to play first base.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Quote from: Private Investigator on April 08, 2013, 01:02:28 AM
That happens all over CAP. GOBN keeping 23 year old Captains from advancing but the next Wing over GOBN keeping 75 year old Captains from advancing. CAP is really lacking team effort. It is getting like little league. You can be the worst player on the team but if your dad is the manager you get to play first base.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I don't know if that can ever be changed.  It's entrenched so deeply in CAP that it's become part of the organisation.  The last time I left CAP, I said "I've had enough of this."

But, as I said earlier, I ran into a CAP member and her cadet daughter one day, struck up a conversation, and the member (whom I like; she's never been anything but courteous to me) started with "Oh, we need someone like you, your experience, etc."

I'm not blaming her.  I allowed myself to be suckered into it.  The leopard hasn't changed it's spots...so more fool me.

For the Promotion to Major...the Approving authority is the Wing Commander.  In the RealMilitary awards/promotions/requests always get reviewed by the approving authority.  It's the responsibility of the CoC to Forward....each link in the chain can forward either endorsing the request or provide the approving authority a reason to not approve.  Either way for the Group Commander to withhold I think is a gross misuse of authority.  I understand that this is the Common way CAP does business, but that doesn't make it right.  If disapproving the request it at a minimum should be done in writing.  Even if it's an email for documentation purposes.

If the Group Commander doesn't respond to your inquiry, it's completely appropriate to go to the Wing Commander because it's the ultimate responsibility of the Wing Commander if the group commander isn't doing his job.

Well, I mean with the sequestration happening and all, we can't just be promoting a bunch of people to O-4, that'll chew up our budget in no time!

Quote from: SARDOC on April 08, 2013, 01:42:57 AM
For the Promotion to Major...the Approving authority is the Wing Commander.  In the RealMilitary awards/promotions/requests always get reviewed by the approving authority.  It's the responsibility of the CoC to Forward....each link in the chain can forward either endorsing the request or provide the approving authority a reason to not approve.  Either way for the Group Commander to withhold I think is a gross misuse of authority.  I understand that this is the Common way CAP does business, but that doesn't make it right.  If disapproving the request it at a minimum should be done in writing.  Even if it's an email for documentation purposes.

If the Group Commander doesn't respond to your inquiry, it's completely appropriate to go to the Wing Commander because it's the ultimate responsibility of the Wing Commander if the group commander isn't doing his job.

As I understand it, my paperwork dead-ended at the Squadron promotion board and Group was only involved in verbal conversation with Squadron CC.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 08, 2013, 02:54:05 AM

Quote from: SARDOC on April 08, 2013, 01:42:57 AM
For the Promotion to Major...the Approving authority is the Wing Commander.  In the RealMilitary awards/promotions/requests always get reviewed by the approving authority.  It's the responsibility of the CoC to Forward....each link in the chain can forward either endorsing the request or provide the approving authority a reason to not approve.  Either way for the Group Commander to withhold I think is a gross misuse of authority.  I understand that this is the Common way CAP does business, but that doesn't make it right.  If disapproving the request it at a minimum should be done in writing.  Even if it's an email for documentation purposes.

If the Group Commander doesn't respond to your inquiry, it's completely appropriate to go to the Wing Commander because it's the ultimate responsibility of the Wing Commander if the group commander isn't doing his job.

As I understand it, my paperwork dead-ended at the Squadron promotion board and Group was only involved in verbal conversation with Squadron CC.

So....it is your squadron commander who does not like you.  So the answer to your question should be comming from him...not group or wing.

And of course there is always the IG route.

I got to make an opinion on all this reinstatement issue. First the reinstatement is not an obligation according to regs, and I even spoke to NHQ before I decided to re-join and they explain me that is up to the promoting commander to even take into consideration your previous time in grade before your break in service. For example if you were a Captain for 8 months before your membership expires and after your return the promoting authority could count those 8 months towards your next promotion after your reinstatement.  Having said that, What is the big fuzz about the reinstatement of the Grade? Isn't your duty assignment the important part of your tasks in CAP anyways? Is not like In the military that you see that the duty assignment is usually given to the Senior officer. Here in CAP your Grade doesn't necessary appoints you into a Duty assignment, but your Duty assignment can promote you. Therefore which one has more power or authority for operational purposes, your Grade, or Duty Assignment? I am a 1LT, and I am currently the CDC and our CDS is also a 1st LT and is doing an excellent job, 2 new Capt's  joined our Sq. They have higher grade but they are under the command of a 1LT. I don't see the big fuzz about reinstating them back to their old grade.
Now their break in service and current skills will come to play at the time of Duty assignment. That is my opinion on that.

Quote from: coloncapfl on April 08, 2013, 10:09:35 AM
What is the big fuzz about the reinstatement of the Grade?

In my (never-to-be) humble opinion, the "big fuzz" is about one of the two ways people in CAP are "paid" for their service.

We get recognized for our work in CAP through either promotions or awards.  When I taught a Personnel course at CLC, I used the "promotion=payday" saying as my mantra.  Grade reinstatement is important, as is promotion, because it is a recognition of what has been accomplished.

In my own case, when I returned from a 12-year retirement, it was very important to me that my grade of lieutenant colonel be reinstated.  I had earned it - the hard way - and it kind of rankled me when the Wing CC went off-regulations to recommend I come back as a major and do TIG again. 

Your mileage may vary.  That's how I see it.

Jack

Quote from: lordmonar on April 08, 2013, 04:27:49 AM
So....it is your squadron commander who does not like you.  So the answer to your question should be comming from him...not group or wing.

Which I cannot get a straight answer from.  I cannot go into too much detail publicly, but it has to do with issues relating to discrimination.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 08, 2013, 04:27:49 AM
And of course there is always the IG route.

BTDT on another issue in another wing...and almost got handed a 2B for my efforts.

However, thank you for your input, Master Sergeant...I mean it.

When I first Joined CAP Last August, I was excited about rank, etc. Now it just seems to me like to much of an Hassle. Yes, being a Higher rank is awesome. I would hate to resew all of my ranks on my uniforms, jackets, flighsuits etc. It gets expensive. Alot of SM in my unit have been the same rank for 10 Plus years because they do not want to change there grade insignia over.

In CAP does "Rank" Really Matter? I mean yes someone higher ranking than you grants a salute and respect Etc. Im talking about the rank itself. You have a Lt. Col Pilot, and a Major SCC, then a 1st Lt DCC, Capt. ES Officer, Capt Safety Officer ,Major Chaplain, 2nd Lt PD Officer, etc. Who outranks Who? Yes they are Ranks, but does the Lt. Col Pilot outrank all of them? In Technicallity yes, but when it comes to Position in Leadership no. There is alot of people who are certain ranks filling in for not there Rank Position.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 08, 2013, 04:56:13 PMIn CAP does "Rank" Really Matter? I mean yes someone higher ranking than you grants a salute and respect Etc. Im talking about the rank itself. You have a Lt. Col Pilot, and a Major SCC, then a 1st Lt DCC, Capt. ES Officer, Capt Safety Officer ,Major Chaplain, 2nd Lt PD Officer, etc. Who outranks Who? Yes they are Ranks, but does the Lt. Col Pilot outrank all of them? In Technicallity yes, but when it comes to Position in Leadership no. There is alot of people who are certain ranks filling in for not there Rank Position.

All authority in CAP is based on positional appointment, not grade, up to and including the National Commander.

Rank matters to the person.

We give of ourselves, our time, our money and our passion.

CAP has only so many ways to repay that.

So I get bent out of shape when I hear things like Cyborg is going through......It takes 5 whole minutes to tell someone why you are not going to promote him.  Just be a man and a leader and be honest.

And for the record.....while I do know that this sort of thing goes on.......I think it is the exception as opposed to the rule.

For Cyborg.........Push it.   If your promotion is being held up by the squadron commander......demand, politely, an explanation.  If you don't get one go around your commander up the chain.

If you did an IG complaint at wing.....and got threatened with a 2b....do one at region or national.

This is how we fix things......don't just complain.....fight!

^1.

^1 Just Wrong, What makes me curious is why they wont give you an Explanation. Reminds me of the CSU Subject....

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 08, 2013, 05:23:39 PM
^1 Just Wrong, What makes me curious is why they wont give you an Explanation. Reminds me of the CSU Subject...

That's a big weakness in the promotion system - we discussed it at length, with suggestions, last year. 

Unlike on the cadet side, there's no expectation or requirement for action on a promotion request.  A request can sit indefinitely and not even
be acknowledged, and no specific timeline for processing exists, nor is there a requirement that the denial be explained.

At least in the case of a denial, there is the possibility for appeal or even a complaint (rarely successful), but unprocessed, that's not even an option.

Regardless of the result, our members deserve the basic common courtesy and respect of timely, unambiguous actions on all personnel actions.

I personally had several occasions where promotions or decorations were denied.  The conversations are not generally pleasant, and occasionally
result in hard feelings, but they are part of the duty and responsibility of being a Commander.

Please don't get me wrong, when I posted the question of what is the big deal of the reinstatement, I didn't mean in regards to the member, but in regards to the Commanders who hold them up and make all this extra requirements and waiting extra time before approving it, etc. because is "their way". I had 3 seniors who were 1LT before their membership lapse and I made sure that they took their level 1, gave them a basic briefing of the changes in CAP and as soon as their Level 1 cleared NHQ, I requested my CC to submit their reinstatement. I am a firm believer that if you earned it you should get it. If they held a previous grade is because they spent time in CAP enough to earn the grade. And to clarify, is Grade, not Rank. Rank is how you determine who is senior among officers of the same Grade, or TIG. Like others said, is a personal achievement and it should be recognized.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 08, 2013, 05:14:39 PM
So I get bent out of shape when I hear things like Cyborg is going through......It takes 5 whole minutes to tell someone why you are not going to promote him.  Just be a man and a leader and be honest.

Thank you for understanding.  I apologise for being truculent with you earlier.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 08, 2013, 05:14:39 PM
For Cyborg.........Push it.   If your promotion is being held up by the squadron commander......demand, politely, an explanation.  If you don't get one go around your commander up the chain.

I've tried that via a letter to the Group Commander, which has gone unanswered.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 08, 2013, 05:14:39 PM
If you did an IG complaint at wing.....and got threatened with a 2b....do one at region or national.

I should have clarified that was in another matter, in another wing, and in another life.  The effect was that I don't have a lot of trust in CAP IG...it's full of the GOBN.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 08, 2013, 05:14:39 PM
This is how we fix things......don't just complain.....fight!

I see what you are getting at.  However, one potential consequence of that is that you can become persona non grata throughout your unit, Group and Wing.  Seen it.  Kind of like in the work world, where for whatever reason they can't/won't fire someone, but will ostracise them enough to get them to quit.

In this case it has to do with discrimination, and I don't use that term lightly in our over-litigious society.

However, I don't plan to let this rest...the instant someone tries to mention "2B," I reply with "lawyer."  Not a route I want to take, but one I am willing to take.

I can understand the fear of becomming persona non grata.......but if they are holding up your promotion for no good reason.....aren't you already there?

Worse......they are using you with out "paying" you!

Don't stop at group.  Go to the wing commander, use the IG system.   

Yep it may be cracked and twisted in some places......but not in all......and it will never get fixed until people with the balls to stand up and make it right.

If you just quit in June.....then they win and they get to screw over the next guy.

And don't be afraid of the 2b......first off.....if it is bogus.......it will get turned over in the long run (it may take awhile.....but if you stick to your guns it will get fixed). Second.........it is just CAP.   In the big scheme of things........if the environment you are working is that toxic you are probably going to quit anyways......so a 2b is sort of non issue......also on the good side of things.....a 2b has some hard and fast rules that would REQUIRE the chain of command to pay attention.   

It looks to me you have a commander who likes you.....but someon up the chain does not.....and your commander won't buck the system in your favor.     So any threat of a 2b is probably just that.....a threat......to get you to shut up and just go away.

Think of it as civil disobediance in the 50's.    You can't sit in the front of the bus.......sit there and get arrested and make a scene.     
Bottom line.....if you have completed all of your objective requirments for the grade.......then they either have to promote you or provide clear guidance of where you are failing in the subjective requirements.

Push them.....Unanswered letter to the Group CC.......send one to the wing CC.  That goes unanswered go to region and open an IG complaint at the region level (as this is a wing level decision).

This is always my advice to people who are not getting what they think they should out of CAP (or anything for that matter).  Too often leaders in CAP try to go the path of least resistance and don't do what they need to do....and try to GOBN it.

Does not happen on my watch.

We recently picked up a new member, trasfered from another wing.  Someone in our wing knew someone in the old wing and we were told to "stay away from him".  We picked him up anyways....when that happen the guy from our wing started repeating rumors about this member.....CPP violations, disrepectful, insubordinate....etc.   So my CC simply called our wing CC who cross decked it to the other wing CC.....turns out it was bad blood, some aligations but nothing in writing, no formal complaint.    Ergo.........we ignored it.

If you have a beef with someone.........record it.  A letter of conseling, letter of reprimand, 2b.....is all that it takes.
One of the reasons why I think we need some sort of CAPF 50 for seniors.

CAPF 40 is the SM feedback form.

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 08, 2013, 04:56:13 PM
When I first Joined CAP Last August, I was excited about rank, etc. Now it just seems to me like to much of an Hassle. Yes, being a Higher rank is awesome. I would hate to resew all of my ranks on my uniforms, jackets, flighsuits etc. It gets expensive. Alot of SM in my unit have been the same rank for 10 Plus years because they do not want to change there grade insignia over.

In CAP does "Rank" Really Matter? I mean yes someone higher ranking than you grants a salute and respect Etc. Im talking about the rank itself. You have a Lt. Col Pilot, and a Major SCC, then a 1st Lt DCC, Capt. ES Officer, Capt Safety Officer ,Major Chaplain, 2nd Lt PD Officer, etc. Who outranks Who? Yes they are Ranks, but does the Lt. Col Pilot outrank all of them? In Technicallity yes, but when it comes to Position in Leadership no. There is alot of people who are certain ranks filling in for not there Rank Position.

Great point. I always thought about going to my active duty rank, Staff Sergeant and just doing staff jobs in CAP Units. The only people who should have officer ranks are actual Unit Commanders and their Deputies.

Quote from: Private Investigator on April 09, 2013, 02:01:58 AM
Great point. I always thought about going to my active duty rank, Staff Sergeant and just doing staff jobs in CAP Units. The only people who should have officer ranks are actual Unit Commanders and their Deputies.

I often wish I had done just that.  No, I wouldn't promote...but I'd be out of the loop of all this politics, nonsense and Bravo Sierra about promotions.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 10, 2013, 12:32:26 AM

Quote from: Private Investigator on April 09, 2013, 02:01:58 AM
Great point. I always thought about going to my active duty rank, Staff Sergeant and just doing staff jobs in CAP Units. The only people who should have officer ranks are actual Unit Commanders and their Deputies.

I often wish I had done just that.  No, I wouldn't promote...but I'd be out of the loop of all this politics, nonsense and Bravo Sierra about promotions.

You could still do it anytime you want. Might be a nice "How do you do?" And ends the discussion for all involved.

^ That could be a simple resolution   :clap:

Quote from: Eclipse on April 10, 2013, 03:57:56 AM

Quote from: CyBorg on April 10, 2013, 12:32:26 AM

Quote from: Private Investigator on April 09, 2013, 02:01:58 AM
Great point. I always thought about going to my active duty rank, Staff Sergeant and just doing staff jobs in CAP Units. The only people who should have officer ranks are actual Unit Commanders and their Deputies.

I often wish I had done just that.  No, I wouldn't promote...but I'd be out of the loop of all this politics, nonsense and Bravo Sierra about promotions.

You could still do it anytime you want. Might be a nice "How do you do?" And ends the discussion for all involved.

That is one of the reasons why I'm a MSgt today and not a Lt Col.

Quote from: CyBorg on April 10, 2013, 12:32:26 AM

Quote from: Private Investigator on April 09, 2013, 02:01:58 AM
Great point. I always thought about going to my active duty rank, Staff Sergeant and just doing staff jobs in CAP Units. The only people who should have officer ranks are actual Unit Commanders and their Deputies.

I often wish I had done just that.  No, I wouldn't promote...but I'd be out of the loop of all this politics, nonsense and Bravo Sierra about promotions.

Just fill out a CAPF 2 section 1 and 4, attach a copy of your orders to highest NCO grade, your commander signs scans-emails/mails to NHQ, then in a couple of weeks: bam- CAP NCO

Really? CAP NCO? Never really thaught of that. Can you buy NCO Ranks in CAP for SM? Hey then that means Cadets dont have to salute you!!

Quote from: Devil Doc on April 10, 2013, 02:55:29 PM
Really? CAP NCO? Never really thaught of that. Can you buy NCO Ranks in CAP for SM? Hey then that means Cadets dont have to salute you!!

You wear the Air Force NCO ranks on the sleeves and CAP cut-outs on the Blues/Whites and CAP embroidered on B/BDU's.  Please note that CAP NCO's start at E-5, regardless that Army/Navy/Marines have NCO's at E-4.

And there's no CAP "program" - you will remain your rank form the other service permanently unless you are promoted there, regardless
of PD Level / TIG in CAP.

If you're in 10 years wearing stripes and decide you want to be a CAP officer, you start at zero.

Quote from: RogueLeader on April 10, 2013, 03:16:39 PM
Please note that CAP NCO's start at E-5, regardless that Army/Navy/Marines have NCO's at E-4.

I'd forgotten that...and I fall short of the requirement. :(