Noticing from the wear of the golf shirt by other members that the shirts are not very well made and the seal looks off. Myself and another member took the liberty of having the CAP seal digitized and embroidered unto a 5.11 brand polo shirt. The seal is about the size of the silk screened version and there is no front pocket, but there is a pen holder like the ones on the flight suit. AND the seal is the right color.
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k314/ohscadet/IMAG1647_zpsa167bff2.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k314/ohscadet/IMAG1646_zps3417905a.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k314/ohscadet/IMAG1648_zps69911850.jpg)
Whatcha think?
Very nice. I wear a 5.11 polo for work. They're a bit pricey but they're worth every penny. I especially love the pen pockets.
Looks good. But I think I hear the black vans rolling towards your house as we speak!!!! ;)
If they cost more than the ones from VG: won't sell to most CAP members. Remember: cheaper is better.
Quote from: bosshawk on October 15, 2012, 04:22:01 PM
If they cost more than the ones from VG: won't sell to most CAP members. Remember: cheaper is better.
You can get the low end 5.11 polos for about $25, than add embroidery costs. The shirts are going to be much better than what they use at uglyVword too.
They look a lot better than the V ones but are they still considered regulation?
Also...will embroiderers be able to do aircrew wings?
Wouldn't it be a bit cheaper to just get the CAP seal from V and have it sewn on your favourite 5.11 gear?
And you violated the crap out of Vanguard's "exclusive supplier" agreement.
Don't post the name of who did your embroidery. They will probably have a C&D letter in the mail very shortly if you post it.
Don't get me wrong, it looks great, but posting it here was not a good idea.
I have seen a black van driving around my neighborhood a couple of times and I have to laugh a little every time.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 15, 2012, 05:02:09 PM
They look a lot better than the V ones but are they still considered regulation?
Also...will embroiderers be able to do aircrew wings?
Wouldn't it be a bit cheaper to just get the CAP seal from V and have it sewn on your favourite 5.11 gear?
It was $30 to have the image digitized and the company that did it keep the image forever. The embroiderers can do the wings but the charge for digitization is $30 per badge, if a group of people went in on it I wouldn't think it would be that bad. Cheaper to get it from vanguard...probably but I just think the colors look off. I would personally consider it an in regulation uniform item being that 39-1 does not specify that it must have a pocket.
Quote from: PHall on October 15, 2012, 05:05:13 PM
And you violated the crap out of Vanguard's "exclusive supplier" agreement.
Don't post the name of who did your embroidery. They will probably have a C&D letter in the mail very shortly if you post it.
Don't get me wrong, it looks great, but posting it here was not a good idea.
Violated the policy...yeah more than likely. But I don't plan to disclose my supplier.
Now I am seriously considering to switching to that polo.
Quote from: PHall on October 15, 2012, 05:05:13 PM
And you violated the crap out of Vanguard's "exclusive supplier" agreement.
Members are free to use CAP marks and insignia for their own personal use in any way that doesn't violate the CAPRs.
Aren't they supposed to have first and last name?
Quote from: Noble Six on October 15, 2012, 05:16:38 PM
Now I am seriously considering to switching to that polo.
Noblesix I think this shirt with gray (charcoal) tactical pants would make a handsome uniform combo
http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Pants/Tactical-Pants/Taclite-Pro-Pants.html (http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Pants/Tactical-Pants/Taclite-Pro-Pants.html)
https://www.epropper.com/products/131/category/50/PROPPER%99+Men%27s+Tactical+Pant+-+Lightweight.htm (https://www.epropper.com/products/131/category/50/PROPPER%99+Men%27s+Tactical+Pant+-+Lightweight.htm)
Prices are cheaper in stores
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 15, 2012, 05:30:21 PM
Aren't they supposed to have first and last name?
Quote1. Dark blue knit shirt with embroidered CAP seal on the right breast and embroidered name and
aeronautical rating or specialty badge on the left breast.
Now most would take this to mean first and last name, I've seen it both ways and prefer just my last name.
BRAVO! I love that shirt. In fact some of us discussed doing exactly that a few months ago. But you actually did it. Awesome!
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15672.msg282726#msg282726 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15672.msg282726#msg282726)
It sure would be nice if Vanguard would sell the 5.11 shirts and tac pants, and offer to embroider CAP insignia on those shirts.
The only problem is that it seems your colors are off. The border of the circles should be gold/yellow, not blue. That is something that would stick out like a sore thumb when worn around Vanguard produced shirts.
Love the shirt, but your seal is really off in color.
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k314/ohscadet/IMAG1646_zps3417905a.jpg)
and National says
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/cap_national_hq/public_affairs/cap_pao_toolkit/seals-emblems-and-patches/ (http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/cap_national_hq/public_affairs/cap_pao_toolkit/seals-emblems-and-patches/)
(http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/CAP_Seal_jpg_2CB56D7CF5078.jpg)
Vento,
if VG put out something with that good of quality, I would be worried. >:D
All the badges I've seen look like a blob of white on blue.
Quote from: PHall on October 15, 2012, 05:05:13 PM
And you violated the crap out of Vanguard's "exclusive supplier" agreement.
Wouldn't that agreement be between the corporation of VanguardMil and the corporation of CAP? Why would it affect a private third party?
It looks nice.
My only complaint about the current polo shirts is the lack of the UnderArmor Heat/Cold Gear or Nike DryFit shirts. In warmer climates, the DryFit would be a nice. I try to offset it by wearing UA under my polo, but that would be my big change to the improvement of the golf shirt.
Quote from: rmutchler on October 15, 2012, 10:27:12 PM
It looks nice.
My only complaint about the current polo shirts is the lack of the UnderArmor Heat/Cold Gear or Nike DryFit shirts. In warmer climates, the DryFit would be a nice. I try to offset it by wearing UA under my polo, but that would be my big change to the improvement of the golf shirt.
The price would skyrocket and be a huge problem
as the main polo. However, it would be the bee' knee's if it was a polo option!
You know actually up until now I never noticed the yellow border. The image that I used was the one from wikipedia (go figure). These probably will stick out like a soar thumb around VG products...but I'll be comfortable.
Quote from: bflynn on October 15, 2012, 10:04:21 PM
Quote from: PHall on October 15, 2012, 05:05:13 PM
And you violated the crap out of Vanguard's "exclusive supplier" agreement.
Wouldn't that agreement be between the corporation of VanguardMil and the corporation of CAP? Why would it affect a private third party?
Because the CAP seals and logos are copyrighted and owned by CAP, and licensed exclusively to VG. Using the seal elsewhere is a violation of copyright (ref. "Hock Shop").
Quote from: ♠SARKID♠ on October 15, 2012, 11:06:19 PMUsing the seal elsewhere is a violation of copyright (ref. "Hock Shop").
The Hock was a "for-profit" 3rd-party enterprise. Use of the insignia by members is not prohibited as long as it doesn't violate CAPRs.
CAP doesn't have a copyright on this stuff. It is covered under Public Law.
Quote from: 36 USC § 40306 - Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and wordsThe corporation has the exclusive right to use the name "Civil Air Patrol" and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.
More
here.
Copyrights expire, public laws do not.
The question for the individual member is whether there is a requirement in CAP regulations that the polo shirt (or any uniform item for that matter) be purchased from a specific CAP-approved source.
The section in 39-1 about the golf shirt doesn't specify the source for the shirts.
1.8e discusses commercial sources, but only in reference to AF-style stuff.
There is this in 39-1 1.8a
QuoteDistinctive CAP insignia and devices such as the CAP nameplate, CAP aeronautical and specialty badges, and other items prescribed herein may be purchased from CAPMart or from approved commercial sources.
So, one might read that to say that if you don't buy it from CAPMart (or its successor - Vanguard), then you could have problems since it wasn't from an approved source.
Unsurprisingly, that statement is sort of wishy-washy and I'm not sure I'd want to try to say that you couldn't wear the "improved golf shirt" because of it.
I am willing to bet that statement appears to be to protect the CAP insignia.
If not from an "approved" source, we have the problem stated that that "improved shirt" has a non-regulation insignia, blue border versus yellow/gold border.
It's also a violation of the allowable uses of the CAP seal listed in CAPR 900-2, para. 3.c., unless you got approval from NHQ CAP/PM.
Meanwhile in the world where no sane person is going to go after a person for this...
Just like a strict flying budget, you don't waste your fuel doing unimportant things. I am 1000% positive VG doesn't care because the costs to go after this man is more than what they'll actually benefit from doing so.
Quote from: AirDX on October 16, 2012, 04:48:48 AM
It's also a violation of the allowable uses of the CAP seal listed in CAPR 900-2, para. 3.c., unless you got approval from NHQ CAP/PM.
NHQ has already permitted the use of the CAP seal on uniforms. Non-issue. That takes us back to 39-1 and opinions about approved sources. I tend to think 39-1 does lock us in to CAPMart or approved sources. We can discuss the
may versus
or until the cows come home or the horse dies. Individual members are probably not a party to the agreement between Vanguard and NHQ.
I didn't notice the color differences s at first, but the difference is obvious to many. It's also missing the black detail stitching in the eagle and the embroidered stars are supposed to be blue (if you are matching the approved polo). The incorrect seal makes the decision easy. Wear the uniform correctly, or not at all.
The 5.11 shirt is still great and I would love to do the same thing. But the seal has to be perfect. I think I would go the silk screening route and emulate the other polo shirt. Its much easier to master and avoids unwanted attention.
Quote from: JROB on October 15, 2012, 11:01:04 PM
You know actually up until now I never noticed the yellow border. The image that I used was the one from wikipedia (go figure). These probably will stick out like a soar thumb around VG products...but I'll be comfortable.
Just keep the file from National HQ and use it when you are ready for ver 2.0 of your improved polo. :)
It will then make all the VG polos look like sore thumbs.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 16, 2012, 11:31:57 AM
NHQ has already permitted the use of the CAP seal on uniforms. Non-issue.
Issue. Permitted
by Vanguard, not by any Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to embroider it on some random article of clothing (maybe a superior article of clothing, but nontheless not the approved item).
Quote from: AirDX on October 16, 2012, 09:14:38 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 16, 2012, 11:31:57 AM
NHQ has already permitted the use of the CAP seal on uniforms. Non-issue.
Issue. Permitted by Vanguard, not by any Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to embroider it on some random article of clothing (maybe a superior article of clothing, but nontheless not the approved item).
Vanguard doesn't "permit" anything - they are a licens
ee, not the organization which controls the indices. They have been granted permission
to make certain clothing and uniform items by NHQ as per whatever agreement they signed, that doesn't negate a member's right to use insignia
for their personal, non-commercial use.
Quote from: AirDX on October 16, 2012, 09:14:38 PM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 16, 2012, 11:31:57 AM
NHQ has already permitted the use of the CAP seal on uniforms. Non-issue.
Issue. Permitted by Vanguard, not by any Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to embroider it on some random article of clothing (maybe a superior article of clothing, but nontheless not the approved item).
Show me where that is written.
CAPR 900-2 doesn't explicitly permit using the seal on uniforms. Using the seal on polos as described in 39-1 most likely was approved via 900-2 3c 11). However it was done, it's clearly OK for CAP members to wear the polo uniform with the CAP seal. 900-2 doesn't mention Vanguard or any other source, except to prohibit commercial use or personal gain without a license.
Whether the 39-1 statement that members MAY purchase from approved sources is interpreted as requiring purchase from those sources remains a question. That was discussed in my previous post.
I've got a few "official" Vanguard polos.
They're not from the same manufacturer, not the same color blue under close scrutiny in good light, one has faded significantly, and that same one has also lost the ability for the buttons to hold closed, and the collar looks bad after roughly the same number of runs through the washer.
Not exactly a standardized product from the "official" vendor to begin with.
Quote from: denverpilot on October 16, 2012, 11:33:55 PMNot exactly a standardized product from the "official" vendor to begin with.
Nor are they standardized from the perspective of the older ones vs. the newer ones. Mine is over 10 years old and still
pretty much like new - it's of a dry-weave fabric and has a very deep blue hue.
The give-away, for anyone who cared, would be the lack of pocket and the pen holders on the sleeve - very cool but clearly not the
same garment. It's one thing to find an alternate / better vendor, and another to redesign the garment.
With all that said, considering the attention the golf-shirt crowd pays to uniforms in general, I doubt you'll get much notice, let alone grief.
Quoteconsidering the attention the golf-shirt crowd pays to uniforms in general, I doubt you'll get much notice, let alone grief
That's kinda what I figured.
They should ditch the pocket anyway. I don't need to keep a pack of smokes in it, and modern styles of shirts would exclude putting a pocket on anyway. So, if we want to look like we're from a relevant, modernized organization, it's probably a good idea to not look like we just walked out of 1974.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 17, 2012, 12:34:25 AM
They should ditch the pocket anyway. I don't need to keep a pack of smokes in it, and modern styles of shirts would exclude putting a pocket on anyway. So, if we want to look like we're from a relevant, modernized organization, it's probably a good idea to not look like we just walked out of 1974.
Nothing says "hardkewl" like a loaded front pocket, especially on a golf shirt.
(http://thechristiannerd.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/pocket-protector.jpg)
Oh, how tacky. Black is the only way to go. >:D
Quote from: SarDragon on October 17, 2012, 02:02:28 AM
Oh, how tacky. Black is the only way to go. >:D
White is for Managers. >:D
Quote from: PHall on October 17, 2012, 03:44:23 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 17, 2012, 02:02:28 AM
Oh, how tacky. Black is the only way to go. >:D
White is for Managers. >:D
Can I haz horn-rimmed flight sunglasses?
Quote from: PHall on October 17, 2012, 03:44:23 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on October 17, 2012, 02:02:28 AM
Oh, how tacky. Black is the only way to go. >:D
White is for Managers. >:D
specifically division managers that drive a dodge stratus. :) LOL (anyone remember the Will Ferrel sketch from Saturday night live?? )
Quote from: JROB on October 17, 2012, 12:19:42 AM
Quoteconsidering the attention the golf-shirt crowd pays to uniforms in general, I doubt you'll get much notice, let alone grief
That's kinda what I figured.
Never thought I'd see the day that you had a polo...
In theory, he still doesn't. It's not "correct" ;)
Quote from: a2capt on October 18, 2012, 06:58:24 PM
In theory, he still doesn't. It's not "correct" ;)
It may not be a "uniform", but it's still a polo!
And since it has his name on it, I presume he is in possession thereof.
I have a CAP HGA Polo.
Nothing wrong with that.
QuoteNever thought I'd see the day that you had a polo...
I know right....peer pressure. I still don't have my tactical pants yet and I don't see when I would wear it.
I have my pink staff polo from National Blue Beret 8)
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 18, 2012, 07:22:40 PM
I have a CAP HGA Polo.
Nothing wrong with that.
You guys....
Nothing wrong with making your own polo shirt as long as looks are the same. It might even be cheaper.
Regs say you "may" purchase from an approved commercial source, it does not require it.
CAP copyright agreement allows for personal use. There is little more personal than a uniform with your name on it.
If nobody told you would you even know?
How about we congratuate someone on doing an intelligent and smart thing rather than raking him over the coals? I know for a lot of people it's more fun to tear someone down than to build them up....but which builds a better community?
If we have a problem people wearing polos made by a vendor other than VG ,then whydont we have a problem with people whowere wearing the knock off BDU'S that the Hock shop use to sell. As long as the polo is not red or purple, who cares!. I will say that 5.11 makes a better product. I recently purchasedx a polo from VG and was disappointed in its quaity and fit.
Quote from: Strick on October 20, 2012, 05:38:35 PM
If we have a problem people wearing polos made by a vendor other than VG ,then whydont we have a problem with people whowere wearing the knock off BDU'S that the Hock shop use to sell.
Who said we didn't? The pattern and the color were wrong, and could be spotted from 50K feet.
I know those BDU'S were horrible, they faded fast and yes they stuck out. I disliked when new cadets would buy the package and get those BDU'S.
Outside of the color differences on the seal, what else is the issue besides it nor being bought from Vanguard? And bflynn people have complimented the OP on and simply pointed out the errors. Guess what that is called feedback, the OP received both corrective and supportive feedback on it. I like it and I have worn plenty of 5.11 products in the past few years and they are an awesome company. Hell I still wear a pair of boots I bought from them 5 years ago. The biggest drawback to them is the price but they are worth every penny.
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 20, 2012, 08:24:55 PM
And bflynn people have complimented the OP on and simply pointed out the errors. Guess what that is called feedback, the OP received both corrective and supportive feedback on it.
Thank you for the corrective feedback.
I want to point out that most embroidery colors can be changed easily due to the nature of an embroidery machine. Its a simple thread change. So if the OP changed the thread colors with the company he bought it from, would there be any other suggestions?
Who cares if it's not from VD? For badges, fine, but actual uniforms? I wouldn't order from them if they guaranteed two hour delivery for free. 5.11 has them beat by leaps and bounds when it comes to uniform quality. I don't wear the Polo, but I might get one if 5.11 offered them out in the open.
This custom polo shirt looks good. However, it is not IAW CAPM 39-1 so it can't be used as a CAP uniform in CAP activities. First, the colors of the CAP Seal are not correct as pointed out in a previous post (border is supposed to be yellow), second the name (as displayed in Figure 4-3) has to include first and last name, not just last name, and finally, if the name is used, then an aeronautical rating or specialty badge must also be included. Otherwise, the shirt must be used without the name. While the text does not specified that the Golf Shirt must have a pocket, all the example provided have one. A description of a Golf Shirt in Wikipedia (which I know is not official or binding), states that they "often have a pocket on the left side..." Either way, this is not an approved shirt to wear as nice as it may look.
Quote from: RSalort on November 08, 2012, 09:12:09 PMif the name is used, then an aeronautical rating or specialty badge must also be included. Otherwise, the shirt must be used without the name.
Wings and badges are optional on the golf shirt, regardless of whether the member's name is on the shirt.
Not all members have rating or specialty badge, especially newer ones.
Further, while one photo shows a full name, there's no actual prescription that the full name be present.
It simply says name.
There are three golf shirts approved for wear. A dark blue knit shirt with
embroidered CAP seal on the right breast and embroidered name and
aeronautical rating or specialty badge on the left breast; a dark blue knit shirt
with embroidered seal on the right breast, without the name or rating on left
breast; and a dark blue knit shirt with the CAP seal screen printed in white
lettering on left breast. Shirt must be worn tucked in by men unless heat
conditions on the flight line require additional air circulation. Women may
wear the shirt out of slacks but shirt length must not fall below mid-hips.
I don't see in 39-1 where it says you must have first and last name, only that the name is optional.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2012, 09:56:30 PM
Quote from: RSalort on November 08, 2012, 09:12:09 PMif the name is used, then an aeronautical rating or specialty badge must also be included. Otherwise, the shirt must be used without the name.
Wings and badges are optional on the golf shirt.
Yep, what if someone has no wings or badges?
The OP isn't one of those...I know him, but...
Quote from: JeffDG on November 08, 2012, 09:58:50 PM
I don't see in 39-1 where it says you must have first and last name, only that the name is optional.
There you go again--clouding the issue. With facts, this time, even...Geez.
Not trying to create controversy here; after all, CAPM 39-1 is specific on some things and vague on others. Table 4-4 states the following:
There are three golf shirts approved for wear. A dark blue knit shirt with
embroidered CAP seal on the right breast and embroidered name and
aeronautical rating or specialty badge on the left breast; a dark blue knit shirt
with embroidered seal on the right breast, without the name or rating on left
breast; and a dark blue knit shirt with the CAP seal screen printed in white
lettering on left breast. (emphasis mine)
My interpretation of this (I realize now that I shouldn't have made an absolute statement) has always been that you either wear the shirt with aeronautical rating or specialty badge and name or the shirt without name or rating. I can see how the description in Table 4-4 can be interpreted differently. Vanguard, who although has no regulatory authority within CAP is the official supplier of CAP uniforms, uses "First & Last Name" in the name field (just as the picture example in Figure 4-3). It also allows for the use of duty titles instead of insignias. That's not specifically approved in CAPM 39-1 (that I can find), but it doesn't seem that NHQ has prevented them from using them on the approved Golf Shirt.
As a point of reference, CAPM 39-1 states in many places (Figure 2-17, Note 4; Figure 2-18, Note 4; Figure 4-6, Note 3) that "only last name will be used" when it needs to be specific about the use of the last name only (i.e. BDUs). On the other hand, it uses just "name" when talking about the flight suit name patch (Figure 2-19, Note 2; Figure 4-4, Note 2). Those do use both first and last name (even though not specified as such) just as those worn in the U.S. Air Force. Base on this, I can conclude that when only name is used, it refers to both first and last name and that when only last name is required, it is clearly stated as such.
In another related statement, CAPM 39-1 clarifies that if the person has "no aeronautical rating, a title such as "Mission Scanner" may be used" on the flight suit name patch. This may be acceptable with the Golf Shirt as well (although no specified) since Vanguard is doing it.
someone quick! come up with a badge that has an aero rating on it with "Hi! My name is _______" on it!
wow, these uniform issues are about as clear as mud. yes I know 39-1 exists, but it seems its subject to personal opinion, interpretation and numerous other variables.
Quote from: RSalort on November 09, 2012, 12:00:35 AM
Not trying to create controversy here; after all, CAPM 39-1 is specific on some things and vague on others. Table 4-4 states the following:
There are three golf shirts approved for wear. A dark blue knit shirt with
embroidered CAP seal on the right breast and embroidered name and
aeronautical rating or specialty badge on the left breast; a dark blue knit shirt
with embroidered seal on the right breast, without the name or rating on left
breast; and a dark blue knit shirt with the CAP seal screen printed in white
lettering on left breast. (emphasis mine)
My interpretation of this (I realize now that I shouldn't have made an absolute statement) has always been that you either wear the shirt with aeronautical rating or specialty badge and name or the shirt without name or rating. I can see how the description in Table 4-4 can be interpreted differently. Vanguard, who although has no regulatory authority within CAP is the official supplier of CAP uniforms, uses "First & Last Name" in the name field (just as the picture example in Figure 4-3). It also allows for the use of duty titles instead of insignias. That's not specifically approved in CAPM 39-1 (that I can find), but it doesn't seem that NHQ has prevented them from using them on the approved Golf Shirt.
As a point of reference, CAPM 39-1 states in many places (Figure 2-17, Note 4; Figure 2-18, Note 4; Figure 4-6, Note 3) that "only last name will be used" when it needs to be specific about the use of the last name only (i.e. BDUs). On the other hand, it uses just "name" when talking about the flight suit name patch (Figure 2-19, Note 2; Figure 4-4, Note 2). Those do use both first and last name (even though not specified as such) just as those worn in the U.S. Air Force. Base on this, I can conclude that when only name is used, it refers to both first and last name and that when only last name is required, it is clearly stated as such.
In another related statement, CAPM 39-1 clarifies that if the person has "no aeronautical rating, a title such as "Mission Scanner" may be used" on the flight suit name patch. This may be acceptable with the Golf Shirt as well (although no specified) since Vanguard is doing it.
The current 39-1 predates Vanguard as a CAP supplier - they had no say in the configuration of the shirts. The photos in 39-1 depict bookstore or CAPMart vintage shirts. Also, VG does and sells a lot of things which are not supported by the regs.
You can't require something on the shirt that members don't have, and why would CAP restrict people without ratings from wearing a golf shirt with their name on it? Golf shirts aren't
Quote from: Blues Brother on November 09, 2012, 01:29:03 AM
wow, these uniform issues are about as clear as mud. yes I know 39-1 exists, but it seems its subject to personal opinion, interpretation and numerous other variables.
Congratulations, you have just passed your Tech rating for the Uniform Specialty Track!
Now, after 6 months, 3 years, or 4 decades depending on which pamphlet you read or gung-ho cadet or crusty senior member you talk to, you will be eligible to wear the coveted pink beret!
...but only while in the dining facilities at HMRS and only on Tuesdays.
>:D
Brad, you missed ICL #1 and #3. pink barets are no longer authorized on Tuesdays, changed to Thursdays. And the 2nd ICL authorized the pink beret only for cadets under five foot six inches without combat boots.
Quote from: BillB on November 09, 2012, 11:17:26 AM
Brad, you missed ICL #1 and #3. pink barets are no longer authorized on Tuesdays, changed to Thursdays. And the 2nd ICL authorized the pink beret only for cadets under five foot six inches without combat boots.
I get it, its the same but only different.
The term, gentlemen, is "roseate". See CAPR OU812.
"Pink?" Seriously, does no one complete level I anymore?
Quote from: Eclipse on November 09, 2012, 02:38:03 PM
The term, gentlemen, is "roseate". See CAPR OU812.
"Pink?" Seriously, does no one complete level I anymore?
What's level I? ;)
Quote from: BillB on November 09, 2012, 11:17:26 AMBrad, you missed ICL #1 and #3. pink barets are no longer authorized on Tuesdays, changed to Thursdays. And the 2nd ICL authorized the pink beret only for cadets under five foot six inches without combat boots.
FIZZBIN!
Anyway - I don't think the problem is really 39-1. Mediocre it may be, but this topic touches on what I think is the real issue - the huge number of "uniforms" that do not even appear in 39-1.
Regions, Wings, groups and squadrons issue their own polo & T shirts, and every CAP activity attended by more than one person seems compelled to create their own activity uniform which not only is in defiance of 39-1 to begin with, it often mixes the new custom items with existing uniform components (all the activity shirts worn with BDU pants) and leaves the person with items often used well after the end of whatever event produced them. I have for example seen incident commanders wearing region or national staff college polo shirts years after the event - on AF missions.
And how many official PAO photos have you seen where a cadet squadron is wearing their own T shirt with khaki shorts and athletic shoes at some event. The first thing the CAWG Group 1 CAC did was design their own polo shirt uniform - and then stop wearing actual uniforms at all.
Before we can get people to follow 39-1 correctly - we have to get them to even try.
Quote from: VNY on November 09, 2012, 04:02:04 PMRegions, Wings, groups and squadrons issue their own polo & T shirts, and every CAP activity attended by more than one person seems compelled to create their own activity uniform which not only is in defiance of 39-1 to begin with, it often mixes the new custom items with existing uniform components (all the activity shirts worn with BDU pants) and leaves the person with items often used well after the end of whatever event produced them. I have for example seen incident commanders wearing region or national staff college polo shirts years after the event - on AF missions.
And how many official PAO photos have you seen where a cadet squadron is wearing their own T shirt with khaki shorts and athletic shoes at some event. The first thing the CAWG Group 1 CAC did was design their own polo shirt uniform - and then stop wearing actual uniforms at all.
None of this is allowed.
Let's not confuse people who ignore 39-1 and make up their own rules with people who are confused because it hasn't been updated in 7 years.
One of the funniest questions I ever got from a cop on a large CAWG CD mission... "Why do you guys wear purple polo shirts?" :clap:
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 09, 2012, 06:53:12 PM
One of the funniest questions I ever got from a cop on a large CAWG CD mission... "Why do you guys wear purple polo shirts?" :clap:
You should have said because I am in the Globo Gym Purple Cobras. LOL
(http://www.halloweenforum.com/members/halloween-princess-albums-halloween-2010-picture59294-globo-gym.jpg)
Badges? I don't have to show you no stinkin badges!!!
As stated before badges are optional. I have 5 that I could've chosen from: my Observer wings, Master GT badge, IC badge, CP badge, Senior ES badge. As far as my name when I wear my BDUs or blues they only have my last name, the only thing that has my first name is my flight suit.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 09, 2012, 06:53:12 PM
One of the funniest questions I ever got from a cop on a large CAWG CD mission... "Why do you guys wear purple polo shirts?" :clap:
At some point in the past CAWG had their own uniform for flying CD missions that intentionally did not look like a uniform for reasons I won't get into here. My understanding was that it was maroon.
I actually have two of the CAWG purple ones. They are pretty much the same as the current screen printed shirt except for the color, which makes me wonder why they existed at all.
Quote from: VNY on November 11, 2012, 07:13:35 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 09, 2012, 06:53:12 PM
One of the funniest questions I ever got from a cop on a large CAWG CD mission... "Why do you guys wear purple polo shirts?" :clap:
At some point in the past CAWG had their own uniform for flying CD missions that intentionally did not look like a uniform for reasons I won't get into here. My understanding was that it was maroon.
The CAP painted planes were also Maroon?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 11, 2012, 07:39:31 PM[size=78%]The CAP painted planes were also Maroon?[/size]
The aircraft in that era were painted -whatever- they were when they were bought.
CAP would have members, whoever, identify potential aircraft for purchase and just do that. This being the void in Cessna's manufacturing history.
Quote from: VNY on November 11, 2012, 07:13:35 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 09, 2012, 06:53:12 PM
One of the funniest questions I ever got from a cop on a large CAWG CD mission... "Why do you guys wear purple polo shirts?" :clap:
At some point in the past CAWG had their own uniform for flying CD missions that intentionally did not look like a uniform for reasons I won't get into here.
I dont think its a secret why........... However, CD is actually a very public program. Publicized, recruited for, heck, its even on the web sites. When I was first getting into CD (I was already an LE pilot) I was talking to a member who was involved in it. We were outside, in a fairly rural area, and I was asking about the program because I had applied. The member literally looked up at the sky for a brief second, looked around and said "This isnt something we discuss outside" ::) i sorta chuckled and said "Ya..OK"
As far as the purple shirts, the guys asking me were referring to the easily fading blue polos that look purple after a few washes.
CD is also the one program we exclude members from as a class of members, regardless of their skills or qualifications.
Yes it can be interesting that a member can be qualified to be in CAP but not be qualified to be in CD. Really, its not an odd concept by far. Look at the military. Besides, its not CAP who decides. Anyone can apply to CD. But its not up to CAP who gets cleared. That, I believe falls to the USFS and the DEA.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 11, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Yes it can be interesting that a member can be qualified to be in CAP but not be qualified to be in CD. Really, its not an odd concept by far. Look at the military. Besides, its not CAP who decides. Anyone can apply to CD. But its not up to CAP who gets cleared. That, I believe falls to the USFS and the DEA.
Nope...Question 17 on the CAPF 83 prohibits application.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F083_F4956859A0FD8.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F083_F4956859A0FD8.pdf)
Oh...... Forgive me for sounding rude... but oh well, yes, I can see where being a US citizen, born or naturalized would be a basic requirement when LE agencies are looking for assistance.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 12, 2012, 12:39:31 AM
Oh...... Forgive me for sounding rude... but oh well, yes, I can see where being a US citizen, born or naturalized would be a basic requirement when LE agencies are looking for assistance.
How so?
A non-citizen can join the military...it's actually just about the quickest way to get a green card out there.
Non-citizens can become police, fire, just about any other job out there. State agencies have a lot of trouble discriminating against non-citizens who have work authorization.
Quote from: JeffDG on November 12, 2012, 01:21:16 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 12, 2012, 12:39:31 AM
Oh...... Forgive me for sounding rude... but oh well, yes, I can see where being a US citizen, born or naturalized would be a basic requirement when LE agencies are looking for assistance.
How so?
A non-citizen can join the military...it's actually just about the quickest way to get a green card out there.
Non-citizens can become police, fire, just about any other job out there. State agencies have a lot of trouble discriminating against non-citizens who have work authorization.
Yes, a non-citizen can join the military, but, they can not get high level security clearances.
And depending on what country they're from, they may not be able to get a clearance at all.
Quote from: JeffDG on November 12, 2012, 01:21:16 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 12, 2012, 12:39:31 AM
Oh...... Forgive me for sounding rude... but oh well, yes, I can see where being a US citizen, born or naturalized would be a basic requirement when LE agencies are looking for assistance.
How so?
A non-citizen can join the military...it's actually just about the quickest way to get a green card out there.
Non-citizens can become police, fire, just about any other job out there. State agencies have a lot of trouble discriminating against non-citizens who have work authorization.
My city requires that all law enforcement officer be US Citizens. I think it's a requirement for them to get certified in my state...I think that is true for the Fire Service as well because they have responsibilities in enforcing the law as well.
Having been the CD Director in CAWG for about six years, I am more than a little familiar with this whole conversation. The maroon shirts were not a CD uniform: they were awarded for participation in the program, but before I became the Director. I never was given one. A lot of the time, we simply flew in civilian clothes, which often didn't make much sense when flying a red, white and blue airplane. Some of our customers simply didn't want us in their facilities in any sort of identifying uniform.
There have been instances where persons born in foreign countries have been granted access to the CD program. It is very selective and I'll leave it at that.
Customs, DEA and Forest Service screen each candidate for the CD program and any one of them can turn down a person, reason never given.
Quote from: JeffDG on November 12, 2012, 01:21:16 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 12, 2012, 12:39:31 AM
Oh...... Forgive me for sounding rude... but oh well, yes, I can see where being a US citizen, born or naturalized would be a basic requirement when LE agencies are looking for assistance.
How so?
A non-citizen can join the military...it's actually just about the quickest way to get a green card out there.
Non-citizens can become police, fire, just about any other job out there. State agencies have a lot of trouble discriminating against non-citizens who have work authorization.
"discrimination". of course. My agency requires you to be a citizen. You can apply as a legal resident but you have to be a citizen before you can be appointed. Most Depts arent going to allow you to be a cop with a green card. I dont know of any Fed LE agency that would. Hey, lodge a complaint with the DEA for discrimination. Tell them that everyone wants to play.
You can't get a FEDERAL job as a non-citizen. As a naturalized citizen, I know it ruined quite a few plans for me when I was in high school.
Another thing most don't know is that non-citizens when enlisting do not qualify for sign up bonuses for MOS' that have them. You can get the kicker for doing a 6 year enlistment, but nothing job specific. I scored a 90 on the ASVAB early Junior year, and had 12 or 15 MOS' that I could go into.
How did a thread about the real cool 5.11 golf Shirt turn into Employment eligibility for Non Citizens???
Non-reg shirts > purple CD shirts > CD eligibility > general federal employment eligibility.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 12, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
Non-reg shirts > purple CD shirts > CD eligibility > general federal employment eligibility.
Sounds like it's advanced far enough to be separated into a completely different thread.
Quote from: SARDOC on November 12, 2012, 05:06:24 AM
How did a thread about the real cool 5.11 golf Shirt turn into Employment eligibility for Non Citizens???
You have to ask? ;D. This is a major break through for us. We have successfully altered the direction of a uniform thread!! We should all be very proud. The medication IS working!!
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 12, 2012, 03:11:47 AM
You can't get a FEDERAL job as a non-citizen. As a naturalized citizen, I know it ruined quite a few plans for me when I was in high school.
Another thing most don't know is that non-citizens when enlisting do not qualify for sign up bonuses for MOS' that have them. You can get the kicker for doing a 6 year enlistment, but nothing job specific. I scored a 90 on the ASVAB early Junior year, and had 12 or 15 MOS' that I could go into.
Well, the feds are different, and there are only certain federal jobs that are restricted to citizens only.
State jobs can only restrict certain security sensitive jobs to citizens only...they have the whole "equal protection" thing to worry about that the feds don't.
Quote from: SARDOC on November 12, 2012, 05:06:24 AM
How did a thread about the real cool 5.11 golf Shirt turn into Employment eligibility for Non Citizens???
its the magic of this wonderful thing called internet. it can derail a conversation amazingly fast. I once saw a thread about aluminum wheel cleaner turn into a discussion about pickled pigs feet in 2 pages.
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 12, 2012, 06:04:18 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on November 12, 2012, 05:06:24 AM
How did a thread about the real cool 5.11 golf Shirt turn into Employment eligibility for Non Citizens???
You have to ask? ;D. This is a major break through for us. We have successfully altered the direction of a uniform thread!! We should all be very proud. The medication IS working!!
While it's not unusual for a Uniform Thread to become derailed it's usually into something that somebody wants uniform wise to make them feel like the grand poohbah...but for something uniform related to turn into something non uniform related...I really an impressed that we are starting to show signs of evolution. :)
Just happened to be looking through 39-1, and folks who wear gray dockers slacks are out of regs. Dress gray or worsted material is mandated.
...not that anyone checks...
Quote from: Lab Lover on November 16, 2012, 01:34:44 AM
Just happened to be looking through 39-1, and folks who wear gray dockers slacks are out of regs. Dress gray or worsted material is mandated.
...not that anyone checks...
...or cotton/twill weave trousers...
QuoteCommercial slacks/trousers in medium gray color, full cut, straight hanging,
with or without pleats, with or without cuffs. Cotton/twill weave trousers are
authorized (no jeans).
Make sure you check which uniform is being described when you check CAPM 39-1.
From another grey/white thread:
Here are all three 39-1 entries for men's CAP distinctive uniform trousers:
Blazer:
Commercial dress trousers of medium gray flannel, tropical worsted, or similar commercial blend, full cut, straight hanging, with or without pleats, with or without cuffs. (No jeans or causal trousers made of cotton or twill fabric.) Front of trouser legs rests on the front of shoe or boot. No bunching at waist or sagging at seat. Trousers must be worn at natural waist.
Aviator shirt:
Commercial dress slacks/trousers of medium gray flannel, tropical worsted, or similar commercial blend, full cut, straight hanging, with or without pleats, with or without cuffs. (No jeans or casual slacks.) No bunching at waist or bagging at seat.
Golf shirt:
Commercial slacks/trousers in medium gray color, full cut, straight hanging, with or without pleats, with or without cuffs. Cotton/twill weave trousers are authorized (no jeans).
Quote from: SarDragon on November 16, 2012, 02:55:23 AM
From another grey/white thread:
Here are all three 39-1 entries for men's CAP distinctive uniform trousers:
Three different standards for the grey pants.
Quote from: VNY on November 16, 2012, 09:41:14 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 16, 2012, 02:55:23 AM
From another grey/white thread:
Here are all three 39-1 entries for men's CAP distinctive uniform trousers:
Three different standards for the grey pants.
... based on three different, increasingly formal, uniform combinations. It's all about functionality.
They come in charcoal >:D
http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Pants/Tactical-Pants/511-Taclite-Jean-Cut-Pant.html (http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Pants/Tactical-Pants/511-Taclite-Jean-Cut-Pant.html)
Quote from: JeffDG on November 12, 2012, 01:21:16 AM
A non-citizen can join the military...it's actually just about the quickest way to get a green card out there.
It's not the reverse in your Canadian homeland, though.
About twenty years ago I was seriously contemplating a move to Canada. However, unless you have immediate family there/written and confirmed job offer/are a citizen of another Commonwealth country, the hoops to jump through are considerable (a "points" system assessing your suitability for Canadian residency).
I even did some research about joining the Canadian Armed Forces. I was told that I would have to get Canadian residency
first, and then I could be eligible to join...but until I became a Canadian citizen, I could only join as a reservist, and could not be commissioned. I was also cautioned that it could cause citizenship issues in the U.S., since I would be taking an oath to a foreign monarch. Unfortunately there were no "Air Command" reserve units near where I was planning to live (London, Ontario), so I would have to join a "Maritime Command" or "Land Force Command" unit.
However, the thought of possibly being rendered stateless was a genuine dissuading factor.
Ah, well...
As it should be. You choose to serve in defense of another nation? Citizenship lost. Vote in another country? Etc.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 27, 2012, 02:49:57 PM
As it should be. You choose to serve in defense of another nation? Citizenship lost. Vote in another country? Etc.
Not under US law.
Serving in another country's armed forces, specifically in an enlisted capacity, will not cost you US citizenship, unless there is a state of belligerence between the US and that other country. Think of the number of Americans who served with the RAF and RCAF in World War 2 before Pearl Harbor. Conversely, a lot of Canadians served in the US military during Vietnam (actually more than making up for any deserters who headed north).
Serving as an officer is more of a grey area in such matters.
Voting in another country most certainly does not imperil your US citizenship. Serving in an elective office may, but that's not entirely clear either.
It's not, but it really should be.
I hold a dual citizenship - I guess. My nation of origin does not recognize dual citizenship, but I'm not sure they even know I'm a US Citizen now.
Then again, according to this (http://www.latvia.eu/news/parliament-approves-dual-citizenship-amendments-second-reading), I may now qualify for dual citizenship.
But more to the point, I live in the US. I have ties to the US. I was educated in the US. I am in the selective service system in the US. I am working in the US. I vote only in US elections. I plan on living in the US for the long foreseeable future.
I am basically in no way fulfilling the duties of one nation, but am doing so in the other. I was quite ready to disobey my origin nation had they tried to send me draft papers, but they went to an all volunteer service before my 18th B-day (I'm not even sure how they do their draft, but you know).
This isn't a facebook group or fan page. This is a country, a place to live, and a place to care for. Picking and choosing between two is just lame.
I have a couple cops I work with who left the US and joined the French Foreign Legion, then after a few years returned back the US and became cops. One also enlisted in the USMC Reserves after coming back. Neither one ever lost their citizenship and are about as 100% American as you can get. Basically, in 1993 te US military wasnt doing much, and they really wanted to blow stuff up and shoot people. Hello one way ticket to Paris!
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 27, 2012, 04:31:58 PM
This isn't a facebook group or fan page. This is a country, a place to live, and a place to care for. Picking and choosing between two is just lame.
I am a dual citizen right now (Canada and Ireland to be specific).
I don't have to "pick and choose". There is no incompatibility in my responsibilities or duties of either nation as a citizen thereof. Neither of them permit me to vote as a non-resident, so I am an entirely disenfranchised person at the moment. No biggie, I've made a conscious decision to live here, and that decision has consequences.
I know a number of American Citizens have kept their citizenship after serving in the Israeli Defense Force or even the French Foreign Legion among many, many others.
Quote from: SARDOC on November 27, 2012, 05:50:39 PM
I know a number of American Citizens have kept their citizenship after serving in the Israeli Defense Force or even the French Foreign Legion among many, many others.
It's allowed. I just personally believe it to be silly.
....Deleted...Posted in the wrong thread by accident. Not quite sure how that happened.
Quote from: commando1 on November 27, 2012, 12:44:45 AM
They come in charcoal >:D
http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Pants/Tactical-Pants/511-Taclite-Jean-Cut-Pant.html (http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Pants/Tactical-Pants/511-Taclite-Jean-Cut-Pant.html)
(http://simage1.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/2/230815_ts.jpg)
The best of both worlds. That's the concept behind the new Taclite Jean-cut Pants. The 5.11 Tactical® design team figured out a way to bring you the top features of your favorite jeans AND your best duty-ready tactical pants.
Start with the 5+4 pocket design. It adds 4 multi-use pockets that can store magazines, tools, cell phones or knives in addition to the classic 5-pocket jean style. Made of 5.11's popular 6.14 oz. polyester / cotton ripstop, this pair is lightweight, breathable and low maintenance. Treated with Teflon® for stain, wrinkle and fade resistance... perfect for wash and wear performance.
Discreet reinforced knee panels add durability for range utility and the diamond gusset improves range of motion. The Taclite Jean has a relaxed fit with a fixed waistband (no elastic) and a straight leg that easily fits over boots. So if you are looking for a training pant that's professional-looking but not too "tactical", the Taclite Jean-cut hits the nail on the head. Rugged construction with YKK® zippers and Prym® snaps. Machine wash / dry. Imported.Blue 5.11 polo with CAP seal? 5.11 gray pants? What's not to love?
Make sure the CAP seal is good to go on colors and carry on.
I like that polo. :clap: I've never liked the current offering, especially after it's been washed a couple of times.
The pants look great and it would be nice to have a standardized offering for the Corporate alternatives. However, as much as I see these pants working for the polo, they'd look really bad with the blazer combo and aviator shirt versions.
I don't think anyone is suggesting tac pants be worn with the whites or blazer.
Those indicated above fall well within the prescription with no changes needed.
Just ordered a pair 8)
Looks great. Don't think Vanguard will do much about this. However, if some figures on making a bunch of these shirts for profit, then problems will arise.
Having said that, digitizing logos are expensive. Shame not to try to regroup some funds by selling shirts to us...
I just went to their web site. How do I know I'm getting the same one? Do we have an item number to make sure?
Quote from: Lab Lover on November 28, 2012, 05:55:21 AMdigitizing logos are expensive.
Not anymore. Vendors with modern machinery can can go right from raster-base images to embroidery without having to convert to vector
or complicated setups, the only thing manual, in some cases, is defining the colors, everything else is done in software. A 16-needle machine with current software can do the average CAP patch or insignia in a single pass.
A couple of years ago I was real close to buying one of these systems with another CAP bud, the pretense was as a side business, but we
realized we'd spend all out time doing free stuff for our friends and never make any money.
These days, if a vendor is charging mush of anything fr setup, its time to find a new vendor.
^^^Agreed. If you find someone charging a ton of money to digitize the image you need to find a new vendor. You can email an Image to Zazzle.com and they can put it on just about anything.
The cost depends on who will own the image afterward. Most of the free or super cheap ones retain ownership of the image. Most of the ones that charge $35 or so, you own the image. Additionally, if you already have the appropriate embroidery image file, many higher end shops will actually be cheaper than the free ones.
Quote from: arajca on November 28, 2012, 02:48:35 PM
The cost depends on who will own the image afterward. Most of the free or super cheap ones retain ownership of the image. Most of the ones that charge $35 or so, you own the image. Additionally, if you already have the appropriate embroidery image file, many higher end shops will actually be cheaper than the free ones.
The image or the machine setup? No way I'm giving up rights to the image just to have patches made.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 27, 2012, 06:32:14 PM
I don't think anyone is suggesting tac pants be worn with the whites or blazer.
Those indicated above fall well within the prescription with no changes needed.
I didn't mean to suggest such. It's just with the demise of the CSU, the remaining Corporate uniforms could use some standardization since they are here to stay. As much as I like the tac pants with the polo (heck, I ordered a pair to wear with mine), I'd rather see a pair that could be used with all combos because you know
someone will wear tac pants with the blazer. :o
those tac pants look like an excellent choice to wear with the polo to me.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 28, 2012, 03:27:24 PM
Quote from: arajca on November 28, 2012, 02:48:35 PM
The cost depends on who will own the image afterward. Most of the free or super cheap ones retain ownership of the image. Most of the ones that charge $35 or so, you own the image. Additionally, if you already have the appropriate embroidery image file, many higher end shops will actually be cheaper than the free ones.
The image or the machine setup? No way I'm giving up rights to the image just to have patches made.
Embroidery image file contains the stitch and thread codes along with sewing pattern. These are usually combination works - outline by computer, stitch plan by hand. If you own it, you can take it to just about any embriodery shop to have shirts, patches, etc made.
Quote from: Phillip on November 28, 2012, 06:37:37 PM
It's just with the demise of the CSU, the remaining Corporate uniforms could use some standardization since they are here to stay.
I don't see much standardisation happening, for one primary reason:
A
big part of why some members go the corporate route is because it's
cheap, and because there
aren't any hard-and-fast standards. 39-1, as with so many other issues, has some holes in it on this issue big enough to fly a C-5 through.
Members who go this route can go to Goodwill/Salvation Army/St. Vince's and get a white shirt with epaulettes. Nowhere does 39-1 say it has to be a Van Heusen brand aviator shirt, purchased from Vanguard.
The situation is much the same with grey trousers...$5.00 can get you an almost-new set of those from the above sources.
If CAP were to say, "OK, it has to be white shirt A and grey trousers B, and the only place you get those will be Vanguard," CAP is going to have possibly even
more disgruntled (and vocal about it) members than they did with the way they bungled the CSU.
I know a
lot of members who
are within H/W and grooming standards to wear the AF uniform but wear the G/W because it is cheap and easy to put together...and some who wear it for those reasons even though they dislike its appearance.
I dont mean to sound dumb, but what is a CSU?
Quote from: Blues Brother on November 29, 2012, 11:35:18 AM
I dont mean to sound dumb, but what is a CSU?
Corporate service uniform. A uniform no longer authorized.
Quote from: Blues Brother on November 29, 2012, 11:35:18 AM
I dont mean to sound dumb, but what is a CSU?
(http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Corporate_Service_Coat_with_CAP_356B2C183EF48.jpg)
A uniform that was well-liked by most and taken from us without reason.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 29, 2012, 05:56:01 PM
Quote from: Blues Brother on November 29, 2012, 11:35:18 AM
I dont mean to sound dumb, but what is a CSU?
(http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/Corporate_Service_Coat_with_CAP_356B2C183EF48.jpg)
A uniform that was well-liked by most a few and taken from us without reason.
Please don't include me in your
personal opinion. >:(
Personally, I thought the uniform was just
one person's way to thumb their nose at the Air Force.
Isn't his unit ciatation out of place?
Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2012, 01:48:45 AMPlease don't include me in your personal opinion. >:(
Personally, I thought the uniform was just one person's way to thumb their nose at the Air Force.
The USAF, apparently, disagreed, since they dictated minor changes and then
approved it.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 02:59:50 AM
Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2012, 01:48:45 AMPlease don't include me in your personal opinion. >:(
Personally, I thought the uniform was just one person's way to thumb their nose at the Air Force.
The USAF, apparently, disagreed, since they dictated minor changes and then approved it.
Here's a wild conspiracy theory. What if the USAF wanted all of CAP to switch to it, and that's why it was canned? Like the lottery, at least that makes it interesting to think about.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 30, 2012, 03:10:51 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 02:59:50 AM
Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2012, 01:48:45 AMPlease don't include me in your personal opinion. >:(
Personally, I thought the uniform was just one person's way to thumb their nose at the Air Force.
The USAF, apparently, disagreed, since they dictated minor changes and then approved it.
Here's a wild conspiracy theory. What if the USAF wanted all of CAP to switch to it, and that's why it was canned? Like the lottery, at least that makes it interesting to think about.
That would be hilarious.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 02:59:50 AM
Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2012, 01:48:45 AMPlease don't include me in your personal opinion. >:(
Personally, I thought the uniform was just one person's way to thumb their nose at the Air Force.
The USAF, apparently, disagreed, since they dictated minor changes and then approved it.
Notice where I said PERSONALLY... As in it's
my personal opinion.
My take is that minor changes were the things that gave the folks at AU and AETC the most heartburn.
I see the "influence" of the SecDef and SecAF in the uniform's sudden "death" many months later.
Are tac/cargo pants even authorized with the Polo?
Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2012, 01:48:45 AM
Please don't include me in your personal opinion. >:(
I didn't. I said
most, not
all, and did not name names. It would have been fallacious and incorrect for me to have said
everyone liked it, when it was not the case.
Quote from: PHall on November 30, 2012, 04:19:32 AM
My take is that minor changes were the things that gave the folks at AU and AETC the most heartburn.
I see the "influence" of the SecDef and SecAF in the uniform's sudden "death" many months later.
There is no proof of that. The uniform's death was decided by NEC.
The only changes that the AF specified were replacing the "U.S." collar brass with "CAP" and removing the hard rank from the flight cap. They stipulated that, they got it. They apparently had no problem with anything else (including the use of
their blue shoulder marks) or they would, logically, have stipulated that, too.
Quote from: abdsp51 on November 30, 2012, 04:50:57 AM
Are tac/cargo pants even authorized with the Polo?
Yes, in that they don't need to be specifically authorized, as they aren't prohibited, and most meet the very sparse prescription with
no need for an edit or even a stretch.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 04:57:03 AM
Yes, in that they don't need to be specifically authorized, as they aren't prohibited, and most meet the very sparse prescription with
no need for an edit or even a stretch.
Which is why I don't see any real standardisation with the corporate uniforms coming down the pipe, because unless you're wearing something clearly outrageous...like the jodhpurs on this East German officer (at least they're grey!)...
(http://www.gowenmilitaria.com/gfx/book1.gif)
...then there shouldn't be any problem.
It's really surprising how nice and "dressy" you can make the tactical trousers look with a little effort, actually.
I prefer a higher heel, but otherwise...
Quote from: Eclipse on November 30, 2012, 05:08:33 AM
I prefer a higher heel, but otherwise...
I bet you'd look great in a 2" white pump. >:D
Back to the main topic, I like that polo. Personally I wear the corporate stuff with the exception of BDU's as the AF style is so expensive. Especially from that V-place.
Okay, the real question regarding these shirts: how do I get mine?
For the record, I happened to notice when I was at my local mom & pop embroidery shop that they had licensed military logos available, so I looked and sure enough CAP logos were in there. I asked her how she had the ability to do these with the copyrights, and she said she pays to use those designs from this company that digitized them, and she is only allowed to sell them for personal use, she cant go into biz selling CAP logo gear. but if I walk in off the street, and ask her to do a CAP polo for me, she can do it legally. the only downside is there really is no savings from Vangaurd. the upside is you can choose your polo. you can get the newer style that are cooler in summer rather than the cotton pique style. so its an option if you check wiht your local print/embroidery shop.
Quote from: Stonewall on November 27, 2012, 05:55:07 PM
Quote from: commando1 on November 27, 2012, 12:44:45 AM
They come in charcoal >:D
http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Pants/Tactical-Pants/511-Taclite-Jean-Cut-Pant.html (http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Pants/Tactical-Pants/511-Taclite-Jean-Cut-Pant.html)
(http://simage1.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/2/230815_ts.jpg)
The best of both worlds. That's the concept behind the new Taclite Jean-cut Pants. The 5.11 Tactical® design team figured out a way to bring you the top features of your favorite jeans AND your best duty-ready tactical pants.
Start with the 5+4 pocket design. It adds 4 multi-use pockets that can store magazines, tools, cell phones or knives in addition to the classic 5-pocket jean style. Made of 5.11's popular 6.14 oz. polyester / cotton ripstop, this pair is lightweight, breathable and low maintenance. Treated with Teflon® for stain, wrinkle and fade resistance... perfect for wash and wear performance.
Discreet reinforced knee panels add durability for range utility and the diamond gusset improves range of motion. The Taclite Jean has a relaxed fit with a fixed waistband (no elastic) and a straight leg that easily fits over boots. So if you are looking for a training pant that's professional-looking but not too "tactical", the Taclite Jean-cut hits the nail on the head. Rugged construction with YKK® zippers and Prym® snaps. Machine wash / dry. Imported.
Blue 5.11 polo with CAP seal? 5.11 gray pants? What's not to love?
Make sure the CAP seal is good to go on colors and carry on.
I ordered these and got them in the mail yesterday. Unfortunately they reversed my sizes and sent me 33" waist x 36" inseam.
The pants looked pretty BA, but they do have quite the tactical look to the them. I'll exchange them and track down one of these 5.11 CAP shirts and be ready for action. 8)
"Jeans Cut".......
I've found that doing a search online, you can do better than VC. ( $18-24 bucks for trousers/blouse, & $29 for bdu m-65, etc).
I'm looking for the BBDU Goretex equivalent to the Army/Air Force raincoat (with front tab for grade). When I do a search, all I get is a US Coast Guard Type II Foul Wx jacket. Pretty expensive but doesn't look like my BDU goretex jacket issued to me fm the Air Force. Any suggestions?
Dave
That's about it for blue. I've found black that matches the Gen1 ECWCS parka, but not blue. In either case, grade insignia is not authorized on outerwear other than the field jacket.