As we all know CAP grade worn by adults and teenagers is internal to Civil Air Patrol and has no effect on other military organizations.
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red. The CAP grey should boards would still be utilized but the metal insignia could be changed out.
As far as the one and two star generals, those stars would also be bright red in color.
This would ensure a very clear differentiation of CAP grade for adults wearing any CAP AF/corporate uniform :angel:
RM
I just threw up. Hell no.
You are joking, right?
CAP grades do not need to be changed. We are a paramilitary organization, and we wear what we can as close as possible to the real items, with the authorization of the US Air Force.
Flyer
Someone slipped something in your Metamucil. LSD, perhaps?
No
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15149.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15149.0)
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
As we all know CAP grade worn by adults and teenagers is internal to Civil Air Patrol and has no effect on other military organizations.
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red. The CAP grey should boards would still be utilized but the metal insignia could be changed out.
As far as the one and two star generals, those stars would also be bright red in color.
This would ensure a very clear differentiation of CAP grade for adults wearing any CAP AF/corporate uniform :angel:
RM
You just proved that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is indeed a communist state as I have long stated was my reason for departure from the place of my birth.
He's on his Salvation Army kick again.
The only realistic change I would propose is for us to use AFROTC shoulder marks.
Quote from: NIN on September 23, 2012, 02:10:05 PM
Someone slipped something in your Metamucil. LSD, perhaps?
Forget the LSD... Did you see the purple dragon in the kitchen?!
Look out your front window dude, the 122nd SOS is inbound on a strike run...
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 23, 2012, 06:59:42 PM
Look out your front window dude, the 122nd SOS is inbound on a strike run...
:angel: :clap: :angel: :clap:
This might look spiffy on our new ABUs.
(http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/49/49296/soviet-red-army-star-badge-rbg.jpg)
Now excuse me while I quickly duck for cover before Al redirects the 122nd.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red.
RM
You really have a secret desire to be a security guard don't you? They even have gray uniforms, you'd be in heaven.
(http://www.securitas.com/gfx/securitas-logo.png)
http://www.securitas.com/us/en/ (http://www.securitas.com/us/en/)
RM is at it again.......I am so thankful I'm not his sq cc......he must be a handful. In fact, who here is up for getting a fund together for his commander. The drugs the CC must take to clear the headaches RM causes must be creating one heck of bill.
RM ....WHY do you keep this up...we know you hate CAP having any military connection, because unlike you, we are not REAL military and are just a bunch of country bumpkins. Your agenda is clear, so why keep coming up with these a$$ine ideas?
Quote from: wuzafuzz on September 23, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red.
RM
You really have a secret desire to be a security guard don't you? They even have gray uniforms, you'd be in heaven.
(http://www.securitas.com/gfx/securitas-logo.png)
http://www.securitas.com/us/en/ (http://www.securitas.com/us/en/)
HILARIOUS, but sadly, true....
Can we just get a lobsterback uniform and be done with it?
I could swear that the OP is proably a card carrying member of the communist party since he has a a unusal obsession with red ;D . I would strongly encourage to OP to leave CAP l . I can imagine that the OP lives in a red house, drives a red car, wears red clothes, dates red heads, and only eats red apples.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on September 23, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red.
RM
You really have a secret desire to be a security guard don't you? They even have gray uniforms, you'd be in heaven.
(http://www.securitas.com/gfx/securitas-logo.png)
http://www.securitas.com/us/en/ (http://www.securitas.com/us/en/)
The bright red color on their standard logo does really stands out and leaves no doubt what company you are dealing with. Again NO DOUBT who you are dealing with. However, got to admit (looking at the pictures on the website) the grade of employees tends to use the typical military rank color scheme with those sliders either what appears to be black, very dark grey or very dark blue. I also like the idea of a consistent grey colored pants both dress as well as more of a rugged work type.
I think a few of our current squadron members might actually have an interest in this company. A few of our former cadet members work at one of the local shopping malls security forces, so perhaps their cadet training helped them get the job. Two of current adult members work in security. BTW there's nothing wrong with someone wanting to or working in private/commercial security, I know two of our senior members currently work in private security and are very good people who will do their very best to perform the security job at hand :clap:
RM
I work for the FED, and your point is?
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 24, 2012, 01:33:12 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on September 23, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red.
RM
You really have a secret desire to be a security guard don't you? They even have gray uniforms, you'd be in heaven.
(http://www.securitas.com/gfx/securitas-logo.png)
http://www.securitas.com/us/en/ (http://www.securitas.com/us/en/)
BTW there's nothing wrong with someone wanting to or working in private/commercial security, I know two of our senior members currently work in private security and are very good people who will do their very best to perform the security job at hand :clap:
RM
Settle down. No one suggested there is anything wrong with security work. I worked for Securitas when I needed some extra money.
It's your red insignia fetish that raises questions.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
As we all know CAP grade worn by adults and teenagers is internal to Civil Air Patrol and has no effect on other military organizations.
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red. The CAP grey should boards would still be utilized but the metal insignia could be changed out.
As far as the one and two star generals, those stars would also be bright red in color.
This would ensure a very clear differentiation of CAP grade for adults wearing any CAP AF/corporate uniform :angel:
RM
What in the flaming @#&*@ is wrong with you??? Why would you even think of such an asinine, foolish, and downright insulting idea?
Jack
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 24, 2012, 01:33:12 AM
Quote from: wuzafuzz on September 23, 2012, 11:00:33 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red.
RM
You really have a secret desire to be a security guard don't you? They even have gray uniforms, you'd be in heaven.
(http://www.securitas.com/gfx/securitas-logo.png)
http://www.securitas.com/us/en/ (http://www.securitas.com/us/en/)
The bright red color on their standard logo does really stands out and leaves no doubt what company you are dealing with. Again NO DOUBT who you are dealing with.
RM
The purpose of their uniform is to make them stand out and let those surrounding them know that they are present and capable of providing security for a given area. Our uniforms have entirely different purposes. To suggest that the discernibility of their uniforms is an attribute which we should adopt for uniforms is akin to saying that because truck drivers use semi-trailers to transport cargo we should use the same apparatus to transport comms equipment. We utilize military style uniforms for a myriad of purposes, including as a tool for the program which makes up a full third of our organizations missions.
And as a side note, you'll notice that the lettering on their shoulder patches is significantly smaller than the lettering on our CAP tapes:
(http://www.meetingsandeventslasvegas.com/images/_company/gallery/company-970264/resize/Securitas3cc.jpg)
And yet somehow bystanders can still tell that they're security providers and not meatball salespeople.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 24, 2012, 01:33:12 AM
A few of our former cadet members work at one of the local shopping malls security forces, so perhaps their cadet training helped them get the job. Two of current adult members work in security. BTW there's nothing wrong with someone wanting to or working in private/commercial security, I know two of our senior members currently work in private security and are very good people who will do their very best to perform the security job at hand :clap:
RM
No-one's saying that there is anything wrong with working for a private security firm, as long as you're well-trained, licenced, bonded, etc. and don't try to act like a Dirty Harry type (I've seen some that do).
But the grey/white uniform
already looks like a mall cop uniform!
He is a professional troll...
Can we just move on? Please? Everyone knows this won't happen...
Yup.. TROLL.. because RM just causes me To Roll Over Laughing Loudly.
They must be cleaning up hazmat at Westover, and it's gotten in to the air..
Sure is 4chan in here.
Quote from: cap235629 on September 23, 2012, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
As we all know CAP grade worn by adults and teenagers is internal to Civil Air Patrol and has no effect on other military organizations.
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red. The CAP grey should boards would still be utilized but the metal insignia could be changed out.
As far as the one and two star generals, those stars would also be bright red in color.
This would ensure a very clear differentiation of CAP grade for adults wearing any CAP AF/corporate uniform :angel:
RM
You just proved that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is indeed a communist state as I have long stated was my reason for departure from the place of my birth.
Not everyone here in MAWG is on that kick. I think the grade is just fine as it is. The only thing I wouldn't mind seeing change of the tape they're sewen on. But having the same ones as used by the AF is a good thing. Especially as we are the Auxilliary of the AF.
You don't like the uniform, you don't like the insignia, I am yet to hear of a single thing you do like. Why are you here? Do you even like the organization as a whole, are our missions important, do you not like the program?
What is the issue here?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 24, 2012, 05:13:29 PM
You don't like the uniform, you don't like the insignia, I am yet to hear of a single thing you do like. Why are you here? Do you even like the organization as a whole, are our missions important, do you not like the program?
What is the issue here?
Apparently, he has nothing better to do than stir the s***pot and get us all riled up. I just stopped answering him. There's a bunch of people out there in CAPland who don't really care for the program or what's contained within, and I do wonder why they continue on if they're so miserable.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 24, 2012, 05:13:29 PM
You don't like the uniform, you don't like the insignia, I am yet to hear of a single thing you do like. Why are you here? Do you even like the organization as a whole, are our missions important, do you not like the program?
What is the issue here?
We all know he likes the Polo shirt. . .
It appears he also likes to learn what is new in CAP... to complain about it! :angel:
Flyer
Quote from: flyer333555 on September 24, 2012, 07:54:44 PM
It appears he also likes to learn what is new in CAP... to complain about it! :angel:
Flyer
A lot of people do the same thing.
I WANT THE TIGER STRIPES >:D
Quote from: Danger on September 24, 2012, 09:10:04 PM
I WANT THE TIGER STRIPES >:D
Go sit in the corner for 3 years until we sort the ABU mess out. In the meantime, no cookies or punch for you.
"I'll have the green boots" >:D
Quote from: Danger on September 24, 2012, 09:26:03 PM
"I'll have the green boots" >:D
Turn your chair around, and sit facing the wall. NO SOUP FOR YOU!
"I'll have the jungle fatigues!"
Nothing wrong with red.
(http://www.armedforcesday.org.uk/acmsimg/news/2011/the_red_arrows/redarrowsteamw576.jpg)
Lol ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: AngelWings on September 24, 2012, 09:29:54 PM
"I'll have the jungle fatigues!"
Now we're talking!
1982. I'm on the left.
(http://i.imgur.com/060wq.jpg)
Man what a hodge-podge posse we were. We'd just come back from an early summer FTX and found these cats squirreling around the dumpster. This was the trip I'd done a 750' rappel with my broken arm. I'd just finished 8th grade. The kid in the BDUs had just gotten them from his uncle or something as the Army had just transitioned to them.
I think we should have Squares, circles and triangles to determine our ranks. That wat people would be even more confused.
That is a fine picture ;D
Quote from: Devil Doc on September 24, 2012, 11:02:53 PM
I think we should have Squares, circles and triangles to determine our ranks. That wat people would be even more confused.
Either that or going back to Civil War days!
http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww261/pelone01/rank%20insignia/?action=view¤t=rankinsignia-civilwarRanks.jpg&sort=ascending (http://s726.photobucket.com/albums/ww261/pelone01/rank%20insignia/?action=view¤t=rankinsignia-civilwarRanks.jpg&sort=ascending)
Sounds Legit.
Here's a uniform for him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zouave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zouave)
Quote from: ol'fido on September 24, 2012, 11:57:43 PM
Here's a uniform for him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zouave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zouave)
Nah, still too military. >:D
Quote from: cap235629 on September 23, 2012, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
As we all know CAP grade worn by adults and teenagers is internal to Civil Air Patrol and has no effect on other military organizations.
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red. The CAP grey should boards would still be utilized but the metal insignia could be changed out.
As far as the one and two star generals, those stars would also be bright red in color.
This would ensure a very clear differentiation of CAP grade for adults wearing any CAP AF/corporate uniform :angel:
RM
You just proved that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts is indeed a communist state as I have long stated was my reason for departure from the place of my birth.
There was no porof needed of that fact for me, admittedly I too am from Massachusetts I am saddened to say.
I have a better idea than changing the color of our CAP rank from what iit is now........
Instead of wasting a lot of money on new senior rank-
utilize those monies to change the background color on every Massachusetts flag to RED instead. Now that would clearly be a differentation I could live with. Wearing cadet lookalike rank is not something I would do........just sayin 8)
i think he would like the Euzon Greek uniforms
http://graphicleftovers.com/graphic/euzon-25/ (http://graphicleftovers.com/graphic/euzon-25/)
or maybe the Swiss guard Uniforms seem more his style
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard)
In any case, his zealousness for red is at cross purposes with CAP's zealousness for grey.
Of course, you have all seen how he got this ball of excrement rolling with one post and never posted again in the thread to this point. He likes to makes these posts to get just such a reaction. I am not much of a computer geek but even I know a troll when I see one.
Devil Doc,
Why not the Evzon uniform you posted, dyed red just for him.
And the shoes, with the black pompon instead in pink and yellow!
Flyer
If all the insignia is red, how would we determine the difference between 2nd/1st LTs or Majors/Lt. Cols.? And if they're no longer gold, what happens to our beloved term of "Butterbar"?
Quote from: Walkman on September 26, 2012, 01:01:36 PM
If all the insignia is red, how would we determine the difference between 2nd/1st LTs or Majors/Lt. Cols.? And if they're no longer gold, what happens to our beloved term of "Butterbar"?
Part of the crazy idea was to change over to the same insignia the cadets officers use. They would have them in the white and for seniors they would be red.
Quote from: ol'fido on September 26, 2012, 02:58:04 AM
Of course, you have all seen how he got this ball of excrement rolling with one post and never posted again in the thread to this point. He likes to makes these posts to get just such a reaction. I am not much of a computer geek but even I know a troll when I see one.
What I can't figure out is ... why? Why is he allowed to do this without being censured in some way?
More importantly ... if he dislikes so much of what CAP is, why is he even a member?
Enquiring minds want to know ...
Jack
Quote from: ColonelJack on September 26, 2012, 02:25:59 PM
Quote from: ol'fido on September 26, 2012, 02:58:04 AM
Of course, you have all seen how he got this ball of excrement rolling with one post and never posted again in the thread to this point. He likes to makes these posts to get just such a reaction. I am not much of a computer geek but even I know a troll when I see one.
What I can't figure out is ... why? Why is he allowed to do this without being censured in some way?
More importantly ... if he dislikes so much of what CAP is, why is he even a member?
Enquiring minds want to know ...
Jack
That question has been asked many, many times; with no answer.
I think it's one of those things we'll never know.
Just think... He may be one of the guys who over starches his BDUs and wears corofram boots, and has a shape in his hat. While his blues are perfectly tailored, so much so that he even takes his awards every week to a shop to make sure all the spaces are aligned just perfectly. He just does this for the head scratching. >:D
Angus-
Walkman did not ask what colors cadets and seniors would have, which is what you answered.
Walkman asked "how do we distinguish between 2nd Lts and 1st Lts," and "how do we distinguish between Majors and Lt Cols."
2nd lts and Majors are yellow, and 1st Lts and Lt Cols are white. If all are red, how can we?
I can only think RM may be thinking it is possible if using different shades of red. For 2nd Lts, a red that is almost pink, and for 1st Lts a shade of red in the fuchsia scale...
Flyer
Lets use Periwinkle and Fushia as the colors. Easy to spot, matches everybodies uniforms, and looks darn good in the sunlight.
Quote from: Angus on September 26, 2012, 01:25:49 PM
Quote from: Walkman on September 26, 2012, 01:01:36 PM
If all the insignia is red, how would we determine the difference between 2nd/1st LTs or Majors/Lt. Cols.? And if they're no longer gold, what happens to our beloved term of "Butterbar"?
Part of the crazy idea was to change over to the same insignia the cadets officers use. They would have them in the white and for seniors they would be red.
Ahhh, missed that.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
As we all know CAP grade worn by adults and teenagers is internal to Civil Air Patrol and has no effect on other military organizations.
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red. The CAP grey should boards would still be utilized but the metal insignia could be changed out.
As far as the one and two star generals, those stars would also be bright red in color.
This would ensure a very clear differentiation of CAP grade for adults wearing any CAP AF/corporate uniform :angel:
RM
In retrospect the bright red color senior member grades might be a bit too much. So perhaps utilized a gold color (like the one used for the 2nd Lt bars on the AF officer grades) but still utilizing the cadet officer grade pins, and of course the one & two stars would be gold also. That would be bit more conservative, and leave the potential for bright red being utilized on other aspects of the uniforms.
I might add that the grades pins could also be worn on the golf shirt and on the field/utility uniforms cloth -- no clth grades would need to be worn.
So we would have everyone on the same observed internal grade structure only differentiated by color. Thus all of CAP's uniforms would have more of a unique look, especially for adults.
RM
Why I are guys trying to fix something that isn't broke?
If you don't like the ranks, wear the polo combo and let it be. There's no reason to change are grade structure. It's what the AF gave us, so we use it.
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 26, 2012, 05:18:15 PM
Why I are guys trying to fix something that isn't broke?
If you don't like the ranks, wear the polo combo and let it be. There's no reason to change are grade structure. It's what the AF gave us, so we use it.
He doesn't care because
he doesn't think we rate such a distinction of the grade insignia of the Real Military.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 26, 2012, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 26, 2012, 05:18:15 PM
Why I are guys trying to fix something that isn't broke?
If you don't like the ranks, wear the polo combo and let it be. There's no reason to change are grade structure. It's what the AF gave us, so we use it.
He doesn't care because he doesn't think we rate such a distinction of the grade insignia of the Real Military.
True. But yet again, CAPTalk has fallen into his trap by continuing this discussion. I move to end this thread.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 26, 2012, 05:05:05 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
As we all know CAP grade worn by adults and teenagers is internal to Civil Air Patrol and has no effect on other military organizations.
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red. The CAP grey should boards would still be utilized but the metal insignia could be changed out.
As far as the one and two star generals, those stars would also be bright red in color.
This would ensure a very clear differentiation of CAP grade for adults wearing any CAP AF/corporate uniform :angel:
RM
In retrospect the bright red color senior member grades might be a bit too much. So perhaps utilized a gold color (like the one used for the 2nd Lt bars on the AF officer grades) but still utilizing the cadet officer grade pins, and of course the one & two stars would be gold also. That would be bit more conservative, and leave the potential for bright red being utilized on other aspects of the uniforms.
I might add that the grades pins could also be worn on the golf shirt and on the field/utility uniforms cloth -- no clth grades would need to be worn.
So we would have everyone on the same observed internal grade structure only differentiated by color. Thus all of CAP's uniforms would have more of a unique look, especially for adults.
RM
You do know that the AF has no problem with the current grade structure they have let us use. They are fine with us using what we've been using. Right now you're talking about making major changes to uniforms and it's starting to sound like the days of he who shall not be named.
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 26, 2012, 05:25:10 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 26, 2012, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 26, 2012, 05:18:15 PM
Why I are guys trying to fix something that isn't broke?
If you don't like the ranks, wear the polo combo and let it be. There's no reason to change are grade structure. It's what the AF gave us, so we use it.
He doesn't care because he doesn't think we rate such a distinction of the grade insignia of the Real Military.
True. But yet again, CAPTalk has fallen into his trap by continuing this discussion. I move to end this thread.
Seconded.
Quote from: jeders on September 26, 2012, 05:33:48 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 26, 2012, 05:25:10 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 26, 2012, 05:23:14 PM
Quote from: Cool Mace on September 26, 2012, 05:18:15 PM
Why I are guys trying to fix something that isn't broke?
If you don't like the ranks, wear the polo combo and let it be. There's no reason to change are grade structure. It's what the AF gave us, so we use it.
He doesn't care because he doesn't think we rate such a distinction of the grade insignia of the Real Military.
True. But yet again, CAPTalk has fallen into his trap by continuing this discussion. I move to end this thread.
Seconded.
While i am one of those that fell into the trap, I"m going to ask the Mods maybe it's time to lock this thread?
Quote from: Angus on September 26, 2012, 05:34:59 PM
While i am one of those that fell into the trap, I"m going to ask the Mods maybe it's time to lock this thread?
(http://i.qkme.me/3q9eqv.jpg)
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 26, 2012, 05:05:05 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
As we all know CAP grade worn by adults and teenagers is internal to Civil Air Patrol and has no effect on other military organizations.
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red. The CAP grey should boards would still be utilized but the metal insignia could be changed out.
As far as the one and two star generals, those stars would also be bright red in color.
This would ensure a very clear differentiation of CAP grade for adults wearing any CAP AF/corporate uniform :angel:
RM
In retrospect the bright red color senior member grades might be a bit too much. So perhaps utilized a gold color (like the one used for the 2nd Lt bars on the AF officer grades) but still utilizing the cadet officer grade pins, and of course the one & two stars would be gold also. That would be bit more conservative, and leave the potential for bright red being utilized on other aspects of the uniforms.
I might add that the grades pins could also be worn on the golf shirt and on the field/utility uniforms cloth -- no clth grades would need to be worn.
So we would have everyone on the same observed internal grade structure only differentiated by color. Thus all of CAP's uniforms would have more of a unique look, especially for adults.
RM
I think we should modify this arrangement to the following: I think a silver and gold arrangement would be in order, with perhaps a gold bar signifying a second lieutenant and maybe a silver bar representing a first lieutenant, any perhaps...now stay with me here, this is a radical concept I'm trying out here...two silver bars joined by two smaller bars perpendicular to the larger ones signifying a captain. For major, maybe a gold oak leaf (or for those Canadians out there a maple leaf), and silver for a lieutenant colonel. And for wing kings and region rulers, perhaps some kind of silver bird, like the one COL Potter wears on M*A*S*H? Maybe a silver star or two for the National CC?
The reason for this is twofold:
1. Tradition
2. Ease of identification among the members of our parent service.
We could even wear them on our collars and hats like the real military! Except, maybe, the grade insignia would be on a blue background?
OH! OH! and grey epaulet sleeves for our blue uniforms and white aviator shirts.
I realize this would mean a lot of change but I think it would enhance overall uniformity.
Thoughts?
Quote from: ol'fido on September 26, 2012, 02:58:04 AMOf course, you have all seen how he got this ball of excrement rolling with one post and never posted again in the thread to this point.
Gone with the Wynd..
Quote from: flyer333555 on September 26, 2012, 04:16:15 PM
Angus-
Walkman did not ask what colors cadets and seniors would have, which is what you answered.
Walkman asked "how do we distinguish between 2nd Lts and 1st Lts," and "how do we distinguish between Majors and Lt Cols."
2nd lts and Majors are yellow, and 1st Lts and Lt Cols are white. If all are red, how can we?
I can only think RM may be thinking it is possible if using different shades of red. For 2nd Lts, a red that is almost pink, and for 1st Lts a shade of red in the fuchsia scale...
Flyer
Actually Angus did answer the question. Cadet ranks have only one color, there is no need to differentiate between Gold and Silver. 2d Lt has one cookie and 1st Lt has two cookies. Maj has one diamond and Lt Col two diamonds... not that I agree with SM wearing cadet ranks in red or anything...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet_grades_and_insignia_of_the_Civil_Air_Patrol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet_grades_and_insignia_of_the_Civil_Air_Patrol)
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 26, 2012, 05:05:05 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:05:38 PM
As we all know CAP grade worn by adults and teenagers is internal to Civil Air Patrol and has no effect on other military organizations.
What I think would be a good idea would be to have all senior member insignia be the same as cadets, with the only exception that the color would be a bright red. The CAP grey should boards would still be utilized but the metal insignia could be changed out.
As far as the one and two star generals, those stars would also be bright red in color.
This would ensure a very clear differentiation of CAP grade for adults wearing any CAP AF/corporate uniform :angel:
RM
In retrospect the bright red color senior member grades might be a bit too much. So perhaps utilized a gold color (like the one used for the 2nd Lt bars on the AF officer grades) but still utilizing the cadet officer grade pins, and of course the one & two stars would be gold also. That would be bit more conservative, and leave the potential for bright red being utilized on other aspects of the uniforms.
I might add that the grades pins could also be worn on the golf shirt and on the field/utility uniforms cloth -- no clth grades would need to be worn.
So we would have everyone on the same observed internal grade structure only differentiated by color. Thus all of CAP's uniforms would have more of a unique look, especially for adults.
RM
Why?
Jack
You will also note that when he finally does post again, he acts as if nothing negative has been said about his goofy proposal.
Quote from: ol'fido on September 26, 2012, 09:49:57 PM
You will also note that when he finally does post again, he acts as if nothing negative has been said about his goofy proposal.
A bit like someone walking into a room, dropping a really horrid fart, leaving and coming back as if nothing's happened.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 26, 2012, 05:40:02 PM
I think we should modify this arrangement to the following: I think a silver and gold arrangement would be in order, with perhaps a gold bar signifying a second lieutenant and maybe a silver bar representing a first lieutenant, any perhaps...now stay with me here, this is a radical concept I'm trying out here...two silver bars joined by two smaller bars perpendicular to the larger ones signifying a captain. For major, maybe a gold oak leaf (or for those Canadians out there a maple leaf), and silver for a lieutenant colonel. And for wing kings and region rulers, perhaps some kind of silver bird, like the one COL Potter wears on M*A*S*H? Maybe a silver star or two for the National CC?
The reason for this is twofold:
1. Tradition
2. Ease of identification among the members of our parent service.
We could even wear them on our collars and hats like the real military! Except, maybe, the grade insignia would be on a blue background?
OH! OH! and grey epaulet sleeves for our blue uniforms and white aviator shirts.
I realize this would mean a lot of change but I think it would enhance overall uniformity.
Thoughts?
Hey, I think you're on to something there!!! Let's run it up the flagpole and see who salutes!
Jack
There's always dropping by a Westover meeting and asking the CC about their PAO and his motives ... or maybe past PAO now?
So I guess no one on CAPTALK can make a proposal and an adult conversation can take place ??? ???
Since we are all civilians a unique grade structure in my opinion would be easy to implement and for minimal cost the cadet officer ranks being painted gold (in lieu of silver) would work very well.
Now if you disagree, and offer your logical opinion as to why we shouldn't change to a CAP unique grade structure that's your opinion.
One never knows what will happen with Civil Air Patrol uniforms in the future :angel:
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 27, 2012, 09:44:42 PM
So I guess no one on CAPTALK can make a proposal and an adult conversation can take place ??? ???
If you ever make a serious proposal that actually addresses a real problem, we'll gladly discuss it in an adult manner. But trolls get mocked and ridiculed.
QuoteSince we are all civilians a unique grade structure
We already have a unique structure that works.
Quotein my opinion
There's you're first mistake, thinking anyone shares your one of a kind point of view.
Quotewould be easy to implement and for minimal cost the cadet officer ranks being painted gold (in lieu of silver) would work very well.
Brand new rank would have to be designed, approved, and manufactured as it does not exist AT ALL outside of your weird little mind. This would not at all be easy and would in fact be quite expensive.
QuoteNow if you disagree, and offer your logical opinion as to why we shouldn't change to a CAP unique grade structure that's your opinion.
See above.
QuoteOne never knows what will happen with Civil Air Patrol uniforms in the future :angel:
RM
On this, sir, we agree. No one does know what will happen to the uniform of the United States Air Force Auxiliary.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 27, 2012, 09:44:42 PM
So I guess no one on CAPTALK can make a proposal and an adult conversation can take place ??? ???
We were having an adult conversation, you just weren't contributing.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 27, 2012, 09:44:42 PM
Since we are all civilians a unique grade structure in my opinion would be easy to implement and for minimal cost the cadet officer ranks being painted gold (in lieu of silver) would work very well.
It could work very well, but with what purpose?
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 27, 2012, 09:44:42 PM
Now if you disagree, and offer your logical opinion as to why we shouldn't change to a CAP unique grade structure that's your opinion.
I do, and we shouldn't because it's logistically ridiculous to take such enormous measures for virtually no good reason.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 27, 2012, 09:44:42 PM
So I guess no one on CAPTALK can make a proposal and an adult conversation can take place ??? ???
Since we are all civilians a unique grade structure in my opinion would be easy to implement and for minimal cost the cadet officer ranks being painted gold (in lieu of silver) would work very well.
Now if you disagree, and offer your logical opinion as to why we shouldn't change to a CAP unique grade structure that's your opinion.
One never knows what will happen with Civil Air Patrol uniforms in the future :angel:
RM
When you show up on a military base, you are either going to be seen as some kind of foreign officer and get an "unwarranted" salute or have every service member walking by asking "WTF is that guy supposed to be?" They understand our current grade structure because it mimics theirs. Why confuse things more than they already are (in some peoples opinions)?
We HAD a distinctive grade structure, uniform, and insignia back in the old days. It was wayyyyyyy different than the one we have now, and that decision, to put our insignia more in line with the Air Force's was a long and arduous process. Why? Progress. Tradition. Made more sense. CAP and the Air Force have tried to make things more distinct for CAP as recently as the 1990s, with the maroon epaulet sleeves and the silver sleeve braid, but in the end, tradition and common sense won out.
Don't F with Progress.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 27, 2012, 11:14:48 PM
We HAD a distinctive grade structure, uniform, and insignia back in the old days. It was wayyyyyyy different than the one we have now, and that decision, to put our insignia more in line with the Air Force's was a long and arduous process. Why? Progress. Tradition. Made more sense. CAP and the Air Force have tried to make things more distinct for CAP as recently as the 1990s, with the maroon epaulet sleeves and the silver sleeve braid, but in the end, tradition and common sense won out.
Don't F with Progress.
The maroon epaulette sleeves ("berry boards") were a punitive measure handed down from the Air Force.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 27, 2012, 09:44:42 PM
So I guess no one on CAPTALK can make a proposal and an adult conversation can take place ??? ???
Someone just farted again.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 27, 2012, 09:44:42 PM
So I guess no one on CAPTALK can make a proposal and an adult conversation can take place ??? ???
I guess we're all "considering the source."
Quote
Since we are all civilians a unique grade structure in my opinion would be easy to implement and for minimal cost the cadet officer ranks being painted gold (in lieu of silver) would work very well.
But you haven't offered a reason for creating such a unique grade structure. Why would we do this? What purpose would it serve?
Quote
Now if you disagree, and offer your logical opinion as to why we shouldn't change to a CAP unique grade structure that's your opinion.
And this foolishness about creating a CAP-unique grade structure is
your opinion ... one that, I think you've noticed, NO ONE shares.
Quote
One never knows what will happen with Civil Air Patrol uniforms in the future :angel:
Sigh ... you can lead a person to knowledge but you
cannot make him think.
Jack
Please, for the love of god, avoid posting on this topic and ALL topics RM posts about uniforms. I am 100% positive that he posts stuff like this to get a laugh. Ever watch Betty Whites Off Their Rockers? You know, where the senior citizens prank all of the young people? Yeah, same concept.
Quote from: AngelWings on September 28, 2012, 01:08:43 AM
Please, for the love of god, avoid posting on this topic and ALL topics RM posts about uniforms. I am 100% positive that he posts stuff like this to get a laugh. Ever watch Betty Whites Off Their Rockers? You know, where the senior citizens prank all of the young people? Yeah, same concept.
whoa... What channel night and time?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2012, 03:00:53 AM
Quote from: AngelWings on September 28, 2012, 01:08:43 AM
Please, for the love of god, avoid posting on this topic and ALL topics RM posts about uniforms. I am 100% positive that he posts stuff like this to get a laugh. Ever watch Betty Whites Off Their Rockers? You know, where the senior citizens prank all of the young people? Yeah, same concept.
whoa... What channel night and time?
It's on NBC. I recorded it a few months ago though. You can watch on Hulu (for free if you do the 2 week free test like I did).
There is no way I would want to see the grade insignia changed.
I was out when CAP had the Maroon epaulets, but do remember seeing them. My brother was in and he said that people from the Air Force and Air National Guard/ AF Reserves thought that they were some sort of Special Operations/ Training group when they were on the small airbase his unit met on. He said they would spend more time explaining the "unusual" uniform items than anything.
The way the uniform is now is okay, but they could make it a little more distinctive. I am not sure how, but it would help if we did something. Even with the BDU's I have been asked, "Are you in the Army or something?"
Leave the grade structure alone, just do something so that people can tell us apart from the AD/ Reserves when we are in Blues.
Quote from: docbiochem33 on September 28, 2012, 03:19:18 PM
I was out when CAP had the Maroon epaulets, but do remember seeing them. My brother was in and he said that people from the Air Force and Air National Guard/ AF Reserves thought that they were some sort of Special Operations/ Training group when they were on the small airbase his unit met on. He said they would spend more time explaining the "unusual" uniform items than anything.
Those were bloody awful. As I stated earlier, those were a punitive measure from the AF in the early '90s, punishing the entire organisation for the acts of a few.
Prior to that, we had the same blue epaulettes that the AF had, with "CAP" embroidered on them. We also had the same blue nameplate the cadets wear now, CAP cutouts on the lapels and metal grade insignia.
When the grey epaulettes came in 1995, I threw my "berry boards" out. The grey epaulettes look worlds better, but unfortunately it set in train a mindset at CAP where "distinctive = grey."
I would gladly give up any and all camouflage utility uniform options to have those blue epaulettes/hard rank back. I think we've been punished enough.
Oddly, it is now a lot of
CAP members who wouldn't want to go back to that...mostly those who weren't in when we had them (I came in just after).
I remember remarks from AF personnel on how goofy the maroon epaulettes looked. A former AFRES Chaplain told me it was silly to have taken the blue epaulettes/hard rank from us. He said "I used to see CAP people all the time. There were enough distinguishing marks on the uniforms to show CAP personnel."
It's now "governed" by a very nebulous instruction regarding "low-light/at-a-distance," which can mean anything you want it to.
We already have
too much enough "distinctiveness" WRT the blue uniform...we don't need more.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 28, 2012, 03:48:07 PM
Prior to that, we had the same blue epaulettes that the AF had, with "CAP" embroidered on them. We also had the same blue nameplate the cadets wear now, CAP cutouts on the lapels and metal grade insignia.
.
[/quote]
I had heard about the epaulettes, but never the blue name plate and metal grade. That was way before my time. Would I like to see that again for the "tradition" of it yes. But for practicality no, we've had a lot of uniform issues recently and the only changes I think we need now are those that need to be changed.
I heard about the bad actions of a few. Michigan Wing had encampment at Camp Grayling one year and 2 CAP officers picked out an Army Private and were trying to make him salute them. Unfortunetly, the privates commander got involved and told them and several other people that his people did not have to salute CAP members. The private then saluted them each time they walked by with the good old one finger salute.
I was in a CAP unit on a small airbase and one of the senior members was bragging how he flew into a SAC base with nothing more than his velcro nameplate on his flightsuit to show he was CAP. He even went as far as removing the hat device from his flight cap and putting regular grade in its place. Another member who was enlisted at the airbase put on his CAP officer's uniform and was trying to make people on the ase salute him. He was dumb enough to brag about it too. Unfortunetly for him when the tower was given an E-8 slot he was mad he was not selected for the position and was told he would never make it past his current E-7.
There were ways of punishing some members if they were on AD, but others that walked around like a real officer it was hard to punish them at the time. I have onl heard of two people being told that they could not return to the airbase my old unit was on and it had nothing to do with CAP, but their actions as employees of the local airport and one as a volunteer on base.
I do not see a need for distinctive grade insignia for CAP officers as the grade insignia for officers in the armed forces are not distinctive from one another to any major degree. If a Captain in the Air Force can wear the same insignia as a Captain in the Army or Marines or a Lieutenant in the Navy or CG, why would CAP be any different? Heck, Captains in police departments wear the same type captain bars.
While I would personally prefer to wear a CAP distinctive uniform rather than an AF uniform, I do not see a need to make grade insignia distinctive. There is no logic to it.
I think one item would be enough to add distinction to our blues http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html. (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html.)
Worn on the right side under the name plate, this should be large and distinctive enough to allow blue epaulets. This is a large item that has our name, crest, and that we are the auxiliary. This alone should be able to qualify for low light considering it is highly reflective as well.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2012, 07:26:43 PM
I think one item would be enough to add distinction to our blues http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html. (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html.)
Worn on the right side under the name plate, this should be large and distinctive enough to allow blue epaulets. This is a large item that has our name, crest, and that we are the auxiliary. This alone should be able to qualify for low light considering it is highly reflective as well.
The link isn't working. Can you insert the image directly?
Quote from: Angus on September 28, 2012, 08:03:31 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2012, 07:26:43 PM
I think one item would be enough to add distinction to our blues http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html. (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html.)
Worn on the right side under the name plate, this should be large and distinctive enough to allow blue epaulets. This is a large item that has our name, crest, and that we are the auxiliary. This alone should be able to qualify for low light considering it is highly reflective as well.
The link isn't working. Can you insert the image directly?
Just remove the period at the end.
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html)
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/000000CAP0900A_MED.jpg)
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 28, 2012, 07:26:43 PMI think one item would be enough to add distinction to our blues http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-uniform-accessories-seal-enameled-p-13759.html)
Worn on the right side under the name plate, this should be large and distinctive enough to allow blue epaulets. This is a large item that has our name, crest, and that we are the auxiliary. This alone should be able to qualify for low light considering it is highly reflective as well.
Take the period off the end.. (quoted one now works)
Didn't notice the last period was coming up as part of the address.
No onto adding that to our current blues I'd have to say no. It only (and just barily) looks good on the mess dress.
Good ideas with the enamelled crest (worn like a "cookie"), and I'd add the CAP-crest buttons, and go back to the CAP cutouts for everyone, and use the silver nameplate that was authorised for the CSU.
Good ideas that will never. ever happen. The people who could make it happen would be the most resistant to it - and I'm not talking about the Air Force side, I'm talking about the CAP side.
Ever since the berry boards days there's been a "status quo" approach (witness the demise of the CSU).
Quote from: CyBorg on September 28, 2012, 08:25:09 PM
Good ideas with the enamelled crest (worn like a "cookie"), and I'd add the CAP-crest buttons, and go back to the CAP cutouts for everyone, and use the silver nameplate that was authorised for the CSU.
Good ideas that will never. ever happen. The people who could make it happen would be the most resistant to it - and I'm not talking about the Air Force side, I'm talking about the CAP side.
Ever since the berry boards days there's been a "status quo" approach (witness the demise of the CSU).
IMHO the CSU was in theory a good uniform but bad contructed and implimented. If it had gone to the AF for review we might still have it albeit with a few allterations.
Quote from: Angus on September 28, 2012, 08:27:14 PM
IMHO the CSU was in theory a good uniform but bad contructed and implimented. If it had gone to the AF for review we might still have it albeit with a few allterations.
It
was reviewed by the AF.
They told CAP to make some changes to it, like removing hard rank from the flight cap and using "CAP" instead of "U.S." on the lapels.
Other than that, they
publicly voiced no objections.It was
CAP, not the AF, who killed the CSU, for reasons unknown. I have hypotheses, but I won't post them here because I have before.
CSU was to be forever knows as the TPU - the McPeak uniform of CAP uniforms. It was even modified after HWSRN was gone!
Quote from: CyBorg on September 28, 2012, 08:40:28 PM
Quote from: Angus on September 28, 2012, 08:27:14 PM
IMHO the CSU was in theory a good uniform but bad contructed and implimented. If it had gone to the AF for review we might still have it albeit with a few allterations.
It was reviewed by the AF.
They told CAP to make some changes to it, like removing hard rank from the flight cap and using "CAP" instead of "U.S." on the lapels.
Other than that, they publicly voiced no objections.
It was CAP, not the AF, who killed the CSU, for reasons unknown. I have hypotheses, but I won't post them here because I have before.
I stand corrected. For some reason I thought the AF pulled the trigger on that because it looked too close the actual AF uniform even after those changes.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 28, 2012, 04:47:26 PM
I do not see a need for distinctive grade insignia for CAP officers as the grade insignia for officers in the armed forces are not distinctive from one another to any major degree. If a Captain in the Air Force can wear the same insignia as a Captain in the Army or Marines or a Lieutenant in the Navy or CG, why would CAP be any different? Heck, Captains in police departments wear the same type captain bars.
While I would personally prefer to wear a CAP distinctive uniform rather than an AF uniform, I do not see a need to make grade insignia distinctive. There is no logic to it.
Actually, while the basic appearance of USN/USMC rank matches USAF and USA rank, they atre different enough that they are not interchangeable for wear. "Railroad tracks hane the biggest difference, in the location of the connecting bars. Also O-1 thru O-3 bars have a different shape. USAF/USA bars are beveled. The USN/USMC bars are not.
USAF/USA/CAP
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/00000007150300.jpg)
USN/USMC
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/00000007173700.jpg)
USCG also uses the USN/USMC style.
As well, the insignia for Lieutenant Commander/USMC Major and Commander/USMC Lieutenant Colonel are more "botanically correct" than the Army/AF Major/Lieutenant Colonel insignia.
(http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemImages/Large/b613.jpg)
(http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemImages/Large/b614.jpg)
I never stated they were interchangeable for wear. I stated that they are not distinctive from one another to any major degree. For purposes of rank recognition / identification, they are more or less indistinguishable without close scrutiny. My point being was that since all of the services officer rank insignia are so close to one another in appearance that ours being the same or very similar was no big deal. If the Army & Navy officers don't mind that their ranks are similar to one another, we in CAP should have no objection that ours are the same as the AF and the other services, police departments, etc.
I guess my basic philosophy is that easily recognizable or identifiable rank insignia makes sense to me and I consider it to be desirable because of the fact that it is recognizable so on this I disagree with the need for differentiation that the OP advocates. However, I tend to agree with the need for a distinctive uniform that the OP and others advocate.
Change for the sake of change without consideration of history heritage and tradition, as well as ease of use and recognizeability should be discouraged.
Not to mention the issues that would arise while working with law enforcement and military...
Who do I need to talk to?! The guy with balls or the guy with diamonds???
Well it's the guy with diamonds, they are more valuable... But gold is more valuable than silver... So with that thinking, I should be talking to a 2d LT over a 1st LT, and a major over an LTCol. .. your logic is flawed there.
Everyone would have to learn our structure if they Were to work with us... If CAP is leading a search operation, they have to answer to us, and if they have to learn a new structure to be able to work efficiently, cooperation would travel down hill, and it wouldn't be a stone rolling, because it will gather a lot of fecal matter.
Let's have one good reason, and I mean GOOD reason RM, because I can't think of one half decent one.
Not to mention if it's red...
Hey who do I need to talk to about this issue?
Oh, you need to talk to that commie over there with the red diamonds... :o
FWIW, RM is gone. Outta here. History.
You're talking to the wall, for real now.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 02, 2012, 04:33:16 AMWho do I need to talk to?! The guy with balls or the guy with diamonds???
Well it's the guy with diamonds, they are more valuable... But gold is more valuable than silver... So with that thinking, I should be talking to a 2d LT over a 1st LT, and a major over an LTCol. .. your logic is flawed there.
Since rank has absolutely nothing to do with operational hierarchy, changing our rank insignia likely lessen confusion, especially with public safety agencies and the military who understand rank insignia and relate rank with the chain of command.
That said, I haven't seen any issues of confusion with outside agencies that were severe enough to necessitate this kind of uniform change.
The more reason to work under the ICS structure when playing with other agencies. Some FD or PD insignias are even more confusing than the cookies and diamonds.
Quote from: vento on October 02, 2012, 05:16:31 AM
The more reason to work under the ICS structure when playing with other agencies. Some FD or PD insignias are even more confusing than the cookies and diamonds.
I thought we were
required to use ICS when we work with other agencies already. :o
Quote from: SarDragon on October 02, 2012, 05:00:27 AM
FWIW, RM is gone. Outta here. History.
You're talking to the wall, for real now.
wait...what happened to RM?
If I read the tea leaves correctly, he got banned.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img824/3263/screenshot20121001at113.png)
Quote from: a2capt on October 02, 2012, 06:31:49 AM
(http://imageshack.us/a/img824/3263/screenshot20121001at113.png)
That's funny! Nice 'Shop job! :clap:
Quote from: docbiochem33 on September 28, 2012, 04:31:03 PM
I heard about the bad actions of a few. Michigan Wing had encampment at Camp Grayling one year and 2 CAP officers picked out an Army Private and were trying to make him salute them. Unfortunetly, the privates commander got involved and told them and several other people that his people did not have to salute CAP members. The private then saluted them each time they walked by with the good old one finger salute.
I'm going to go ahead and throw the BS flag on that one. With the exception of three years (1991, 1992, and 1993), Michigan Wing has held their encampment at Phelps Collins ANGB in Alpena, MI, now known as Alpena CRTC, since 1972. Prior to that, I've been told that encampments were held at Fort Knox, and Selfridge AFB prior to it's closure.
The one year we did hold encampment at Camp Grayling (1993), I certainly don't remember such an incident. In fact, most of the week we were there, the only Army Guard unit training on post was an air cav squadron from Ohio, and they spent a good chunk of the week in the field. The only people we dealt with were the squadron/battalion staff (which is the least likely place to find a private), and some of the pilots (to arrange Huey flights for the encampment) and again, not a private in sight. In fact, in the limited dealings we had with the guard unit, I seem to remember all of our interactions being very polite, respectful and cordial.
For what it's worth, we also didn't have this problem in 1991 at Wright-Patt, or 1992 at Wurtsmith AFB. In fact, in attending 27 encampments in Michigan wing-including the three mentioned, I can't recall any time where any of our seniors went a little off their rocker and tried to pull something like that.
From what you describe, I can pretty much figure out which "Small airbase" your unit met on, the SAC base involved (I recall the scrutiny we had trying to drive on base to visit clothing sales, I can only imagine the reception that an unexpected airplane would have gotten), and I've got a pretty good idea who the ANG E-7 is that you're referring to.
Quote from: Fubar on October 02, 2012, 05:01:18 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 02, 2012, 04:33:16 AMWho do I need to talk to?! The guy with balls or the guy with diamonds???
Well it's the guy with diamonds, they are more valuable... But gold is more valuable than silver... So with that thinking, I should be talking to a 2d LT over a 1st LT, and a major over an LTCol. .. your logic is flawed there.
Since rank has absolutely nothing to do with operational hierarchy, changing our rank insignia likely lessen confusion, especially with public safety agencies and the military who understand rank insignia and relate rank with the chain of command.
That said, I haven't seen any issues of confusion with outside agencies that were severe enough to necessitate this kind of uniform change.
In a multi-agency evironment rank or grade insignia should be relatively unimportant. Differing grade structures with varying degrees of importance, different uniform s and insignia, and different disciplines all conspire to create confusion. Thats one of the things ICS addresses. Talk to people based on their assignment. Need Air Ops? Find the guy or gal at the Air Ops desk, or who is wearing the vest that says Air Ops on it. Comm? Look for the person with CUL or COML written all over them.
I realize vests arent always used, but they are an easy way to help avoid confusion when multiple agencies are involved. Of course it also helps to be introduced at briefings: "Hi I'm Joe Cool and I'm the comm unit leader."
Ultimately the people with the most bling may not even be assigned jobs within an incident. They might be the brass showing up to see what their people are doing. Merely showing up doesn't make a fire chief the IC. It makes him or her a visitor.
Our CAP grade shouldn't be a problem for anyone. CAP members understand it and it is irrelevant outside CAP. In the rare case someone talks to the CAP person with the most bling, it's EASY to redirect them.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 02, 2012, 04:33:16 AM
Who do I need to talk to?! The guy with balls or the guy with diamonds???
Um... >:D
We now have 6 pages on a comment that didn't even deserve one response.
Quote from: capmaj on October 02, 2012, 03:53:16 PM
We now have 6 pages on a comment that didn't even deserve one response.
The original comment was pretty much useless, but some of the later comments deserved replies.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on October 02, 2012, 03:56:03 PM
Quote from: capmaj on October 02, 2012, 03:53:16 PM
We now have 6 pages on a comment that didn't even deserve one response.
The original comment was pretty much useless, but some of the later comments deserved replies.
I would agree plus we also got a good laugh on it.
Quote from: Angus on October 02, 2012, 04:16:58 PMI would agree plus we also got a good laugh on it.
..and pushed the instigator over the edge.
Quote from: a2capt on October 02, 2012, 04:53:14 PM
Quote from: Angus on October 02, 2012, 04:16:58 PMI would agree plus we also got a good laugh on it.
..and pushed the instigator over the edge.
I'd have to disagree, I think he was so far over the edge already the edge was a dot on the horizon to him.
RADIOMAN015 Banned = :clap:
This thread has more than run its course.