The National Uniform Committee met last night, and we considered some items referred to us by the National Board that would result in the creation of new ribbons. As an example, we considered a proposal that called for the creation of a "PME Faculty Ribbon" for instructors at NSC and RSC.
The proposals are usually well written and logical, but as we were discussing them, one of the inevitable discussion points raised is often "CAP has too many ribbons already, should we be discussing how to consolidate some of them?"
And it occured to me that I didn't know how many ribbons CAP members can currently earn. I thought I would try to leverage the powers of the CAPTalk Uniform Subject Matter Experts (CUSMEs) to arrive at what I hope is a discrete answer to the following questions:
1. How many CAP ribbons can be earned/awarded to a senior member joining today?
2. How many CAP ribbons can be earned / awarded to a cadet member joining today?
The question is phrased the way it is to avoid obsolete ribbons that may be worn but not currently earned like the WWII ribbons or a Falcon Award. Also note that I am asking just about CAP ribbons and not other authorized ribbons that may be worn like military, ROTC, etc. Just CAP ribbons.
Hopefully we can agree on the answers.
Extra Credit:
3. How many AF ribbons can be earned / awarded to an AF member joining today?
4. How many ROTC ribbons can be earned by an AFROTC cadet joining today?
Again, note that we are only talking about AF (or AFROTC) ribbons that can be worn, even though AF members may be authorized ribbons awarded by a sister service or foreign government.
Once we have answers, we then can move into the traditional CT discussions of whether there is a meaningful comparison that can be made.
Thank you in advance,
Ned Lee
Member, NUC
Total for the Air Force active duty, not reserve or guard... So far I count 55, also not including NATO medals.
12 awards by my count so far for senior members can be worn. Including the one award from the cadet program.
32 awards for cadets, if they earn the silver and bronze medals of valor, and Spaatz, and go to IACE
Cadets: 40.
Seniors: 30.
This is not including obsolete, WW2, AD, or ROTC ribbons. CAPM 39-1 table 5-1 and 5-2
That nowhere near touches the Air Force count, and doesn't sound like too much, especially when the likelihood of warning them All is next to none. It can look like we award too much when people don't understand that some of us are wearing military awards along with our CAP awards, but that is their fault for not familiarizing themselves with CAP awards and relating it to... Oh those aren't CAP.
I don't think there are too many, my rack includes more awards than the senior member that hasn't been in the military can earn. And it's nothing atrocious either. It can be worn without complications or negating regulation of not extending above the notch on the collar.
Too many awards? Non issue to me, go ahead and add another.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 18, 2012, 04:47:50 PM
Seniors: 30.
Is that counting the National Cadet Competition and the National Cadet Color Guard Competiton ribbons too?
Seniors can earn those as well.
Army Chart has 52
Navy Chart 66
Marine Corps Chart 75
Not sure if they are all current or obsolete.
For Senior Members (joining today without prior cadet membership):
10 Decorations (Silver Medal of Valor to Unit Citation)
5 Professional Development Awards (level I - V)
2 Aerospace Education Awards (Yeager & Crossfield)
2 Service Awards (Red Service and Command Service)
14 Activity ribbons (this is counting the Disaster Relief Ribbon and Disaster Relief ribbon with V device separately, as they should be)
= 33 ribbons
Though the likelyhood of a SM receiving all those award in their CAP career is extremely rare, they must be a "Super Senior".
Quote from: johnnyb47 on September 18, 2012, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 18, 2012, 04:47:50 PM
Seniors: 30.
Is that counting the National Cadet Competition and the National Cadet Color Guard Competiton ribbons too?
Seniors can earn those as well.
I did not count AFROTC, AD, WW2 or obsolete ribbons so yes.
Sir,
Could you clarify on joining today? Do you mean a new SM joining CAP a new airman in thee AF or conclusive amount total with time put in the program?
The reason I asked is that I came up with 32 including those two ribbons, 30 without.
In some conditions seniors can also earn the NCSA ribbon and IACE as well.
For senior members without prior cadet experience:
SILVER MEDAL OF VALOR
BRONZE MEDAL OF VALOR
DISTINGUISHED SERVICE MEDAL
EXCEPTIONAL SERVICE AWARD
MERITORIOUS SERVICE AWARD
COMMANDER'S COMMENDATION
CAP ACHIEVEMENT AWARD
LIVESAVING AWARD
NATIONAL COMMANDER'S UNIT CITATION
UNIT CITATION
WILSON AWARD
GARBER AWARD
LOENING AWARD
LEADERSHIP AWARD
MEMBERSHIP RIBBON
CROSSFIELD
YEAGER
COMMAND SERVICE
RED SERVICE
FIND RIBBON
AIR SEARCH AND RESCUE RIBBON
COUNTER-DRUG
DISASTER RELIEF
DISASTER RELIEF "V"
HOMELAND SECURITY
ORIENTATION PILOT
COMMUNITY SERVICE
IACE (AS SM ESCORT)
NAT CADET COMPETITION
NAT COLOR GUARD
NCSA
ENCAMPMENT
SENIOR MEMBER RECRUITER
= 33
Again to get all of those, you'd got to be a "Super Member" or something. We have to look at which one's are realistic, for example, most of the general membership is not sporting the Garber and Wilson awards.
Quote from: spacecommand on September 18, 2012, 05:12:06 PM
For senior members without prior cadet experience:
DISASTER RELIEF "V"
Ya got me. I forgot about that one.
Although this opens the doors to devices on the Commanders Commendation per level of approval, the modifications to the lifesaving award for particular actions and modifications to the Search Find ribbon for particular actions to be considered as well.
Devices on the commander's commendation award does not make it a different award, just the awarding authority is different.
Eg region commander bronze star and silver star if awarded by the National commander.
The criteria to receive the Disaster Relief Ribbon and the Disaster Relief with V device are completely different.
But you are right, living saving Ribbon for blood/organ transport vs life saving ribbon for actions etc.
I only considered the ComCom because the level at which it is approved would likely dictate the scope of impact.
You're right, though. The work being recognized is probably the same just at different levels of the organization. Otherwise there'd be no need for the Distinguished/Exceptional/Meritorious service awards.
I counted 52 AFROTC ribbons.
For Cadets joining today potential
1-1 CAP Silver Medal of Valor
1-2 CAP Bronze Medal of Valor
2-1 CAP Distinguished Service Medal
2-2 CAP Exceptional Service Award
2-3 CAP Meritorious Service Award
3-1 CAP Commander's Commendation
3-2 CAP Achievement
3-3 CAP Lifesaving Award
4-1 CAP National Commanders Unit Award
4-2 CAP Unit Citation Award
4-3 CAP Gen Carl A Spaatz Award
5-1 CAP Ira C Eaker Award
5-2 CAP Amelia Earhart Award
5-3 CAP Gen Billy Mitchell Award
6-1 CAP Neil Armstrong Achievement
6-2 CAP Dr Robert H Goddard Achievement
6-3 CAP Gen Jimmy Doolittle Achievement
7-1 CAP Charles A Lindbergh Achievement
7-2 CAP Cpt Eddie Richenbacker Achievement
7-3 CAP Wright Brothers Achievement
8-1 CAP Mary Feik Achievement
8-2 CAP Gen Hap Arnold Achievement
8-3 CAP Gen J F Curry Achievement
9-1 CAP Red Service
9-2 CAP Search -Find-
9-3 CAP Search and Rescue
10-1 CAP Disaster Relief
10-2 CAP Cadet Community Service
10-3 CAP IACE
11-1 CAP National Cadet Competition
11-2 CAP National Color Guard Competition
11-3 CAP Cadet Advisory Council
12-1 CAP Cadet Special Activities
12-2 CAP Encampment
12-3 CAP Cadet Recruiter
Missing any?
^ Disaster Relief with V device is counted as a separate award from the standard Disaster Relief Ribbon (which how current regulations are written is difficult to get without substitution of classes that no longer exist.
Quote from: spacecommand on September 18, 2012, 05:12:06 PM
Again to get all of those, you'd got to be a "Super Member" or something. We have to look at which one's are realistic, for example, most of the general membership is not sporting the Garber and Wilson awards.
Agreed, especially with ES awards. There are many who are in units/areas where the opportunities for missions are slim to non. I'm speaking from direct experience.
Off topic, but what were some of the other recommendations that were brought up to the uniform committee? Was the CAP Recognition ribbon idea (similar to the Air Force Recognition ribbon) brought up?
Do we really have to have another ribbon that really doesn't mean a whole lot. While you're at it, why just the staff of a RSC or NSC and not include things like staff and directors of SLS, TCL or CLC. Seems like this ribbon promotes elitism.
Why not just consider a device on the appropriate ribbon...there are five to chose from.
Don't all ribbons promote some sort of elitism? Afterall, they denote accomplishments that not everyone has done. The RSC and NSC staffers are certainly going above and beyond. SLS, CLC, and other lower level courses are run far more frequently and have far more spots available. So, wouldn't the instructors at the top schools be theoretically elite? The requirements for our highest program award are to attend one of those courses, and instruct at an educational activity. Certainly, it could be argued that instructing something like RSC or NSC exceeds the normal instruction level that an SLS instructor would face. Afterall, the SLS guy or CLC guy usually don't devote 10-12 days of their life to instructing at an SLS.
Why not include Cadet Officer School (COS) faculty to this proposal? The course is longer than NSC/RSC and arguably more academically challenging. IMO
Ive only been an member for 3 months, I wouldn't mind more ribbons. I would also like to add: I believe we should have more specialty badges, but I digress. The chances of an Senior getting the life saving ribbon is probably an rare feat. CG AUX has 34 ribbons, NJROTC has 25 ribbons, not including the Specialty ribbons. AJROTC has 41 ribbons, AFJOTC has 44, and MCJROTC has 29. These may be innacurate since certain units has specialty ribbons.
Life saving is not that uncommon, I have one as well as three others in Indiana wing that I know of, but only one person that Iknow personally has the SMOV.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 19, 2012, 12:14:56 AM
Life saving is not that uncommon, I have one as well as three others in Indiana wing that I know of, but only one person that Iknow personally has the SMOV.
I have 2 and there are 2 other seniors in my squadron that have it as well. So its not really that uncommon. Ive only ever met one BMOV earner, and he was from PA Wing, and Ive heard that a cadet from my Wing (Kentucky) earned the SMOV fairly recently, but have never met him in person.
Ned, I will donate my entire CAP paycheck to you if you can get 39-1 updated.
At the NCSA I went to, 2 people in my flight had life-saving.
Really? That many lifesaving? I feel like an Idiot, lol. I mean ive saved numerous lives before but it was during combat. Im assuming the awards were for helping people in an wreck, or from downing i suppose. Anywho, im more impressed than i was before
They still aren't as prolific as the relatively few posters here seem to think. I've been a member over 15 years and have only seen a handful of them, over several regions, wings, national activities, etc.
Around 130 Silver Medals of Valor (about 20 still in CAP at this time)
Around 400 Bronze Medals of Valor (about 20 still in CAP at this time)
This is the ones we know about.
This is stretched over 50 years of course.
If only I can trade my "V" for and CAP Equivilant. Now does the act have to be done during CAP activities or as an civilian while coming home from work? Etc. Interesting Indeed.
Quote from: Devil Doc on September 19, 2012, 01:55:23 AM
If only I can trade my "V" for and CAP Equivilant. Now does the act have to be done during CAP activities or as an civilian while coming home from work? Etc. Interesting Indeed.
It does not have to be on duty. It can be on your personal time.
Someone wrote a letter to my CC several years back for the Life Saving medal, but it was ignored.
Sweet, I learn new stuff everyday. Im not going to go out looking to save someone though, lol. If it comes to me. of course, I will uses my knowledge and ge the cob webs out of that part in my head.
Quote from: Devil Doc on September 19, 2012, 02:15:23 AM
Sweet, I learn new stuff everyday. Im not going to go out looking to save someone though, lol. If it comes to me. of course, I will uses my knowledge and ge the cob webs out of that part in my head.
Yes, DO NOT become a "badge finder" or "PX Ranger". Not cool, especially as a former military member and CAP Senior Member. Set the example through deeds, not words or bling. If you earn it, great. If you seek it, not great.
Doc the "lifesaving ribbon" comes in two formats.
The basic ribbon which one can be awarded for participation in a blood/organ donor transport mission.
Then there's the ribbon with a silver star attachment which is awarded for other actions in lifesaving (anything documented that saved or assisted in saving someone's life, doing CPR, the Heimlich maneuver on a choking person etc the list goes on).
The lifesaving (the one other than a transport mission, which needs to be in a CAP capacity), bronze medal of valor and silver medal of valor awards do not need to be received while working in a CAP capacity.
You can read some citations for medal of valor awardees:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/818/~/silver-and-bronze-medal-of-valor (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/818/~/silver-and-bronze-medal-of-valor)
thanks Space, and Stonewall Im not an "Badge Finder" or an "PX Ranger" Plus, I cannot wear my Military ribbons on my CAP Uniform since I wear the G/W :(. The cadets in my unit know I am former military, so that is respect enough.
Quote from: caphistorian on September 19, 2012, 01:51:31 AM
Around 130 Silver Medals of Valor (about 20 still in CAP at this time)
Around 400 Bronze Medals of Valor (about 20 still in CAP at this time)
This is the ones we know about.
This is stretched over 50 years of course.
I know you are not counting Tony but I guess his two sidekicks are still in ::)
Quote from: Ned on September 18, 2012, 04:20:10 PM
The National Uniform Committee met last night, and we considered some items
I think the NUC should reconsider the wear of the Command badge for former Group and Squadron Commanders. I know it was disapproved because of the Command Service Ribbon but I for one perfer to wear badges instead of ribbons. Just a thought ...
Upon completion of BMT AF members may have earned 4 ribbons.
Quote from: Private Investigator on September 19, 2012, 09:34:31 AM
Quote from: Ned on September 18, 2012, 04:20:10 PM
The National Uniform Committee met last night, and we considered some items
I think the NUC should reconsider the wear of the Command badge for former Group and Squadron Commanders. I know it was disapproved because of the Command Service Ribbon but I for one perfer to wear badges instead of ribbons. Just a thought ...
Ironically the former National Board exempted themselves when they allowed past NB members to retain the badge. They also allowed themselves to add additional stars on the Command service Ribbon for NB/NEC service. But those of us who were not of the nobility were not allowed to continue wear of the badge.
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 19, 2012, 12:15:05 PM
Upon completion of BMT AF members may have earned 4 ribbons.
I thought it was more than that, with all the GWOT stuff nowadays.
I remember four being possible:
AF Training Ribbon
NDSM
Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon
BMT Hon Grad
Quote from: CyBorg on September 19, 2012, 11:48:47 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 19, 2012, 12:15:05 PM
Upon completion of BMT AF members may have earned 4 ribbons.
I thought it was more than that, with all the GWOT stuff nowadays.
I remember four being possible:
AF Training Ribbon
NDSM
Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon
BMT Hon Grad
And the Global War on Terror Service Medal.
So...three for "free" and two they may earn.
A few quick (1:15 a.m.) thoughts, expanding on/developing from the original question and a few comments:
Command Service Ribbon: Graduated commanders should be allowed to wear the command badge under the nameplate, as is Air Force practice. And the Command Service Ribbon should be abolished. For one, it's far too similar to the Community Service Ribbon to be recognizable. But it's also, generally, redundant. And it seems if you make full colonel in CAP, it's a given that you served as a commander or in a vital national leadership role. It should be authorized for O-6 and under, just as it is (I believe?) for Ma Blue.
Specialty badge overload: Someone on here said we needed more specialty badges. We need fewer. In fact, we need to rethink allowing them in three different places on the uniform -- one does nicely, thank you (I've crudely characterized it as "puking shields all over the uniform"). If we didn't have a badge for every specialty track, and instead had chrome-silver badges for general areas of expertise (communications, for instance, would include public affairs and IT), it would help clean up the uniform greatly. Maybe we pattern them like the Air Force's, and they're worn over the ribbons and under the aeronautical rating. Sure, it'd force a choice of badge, but so be it. Highest badge earned (and this would include the IC and GT badges) could be the mandated "choice," denoting the member's strongest contribution/capability. Since we already have stars on the Leadership Award ribbon for specialty tracks, the specialty track badges we have now are pretty much redundant.
Membership Award and Leadership Award: I'd propose ditching the Membership Award and renaming the Leadership Award. The Membership Award is pretty much given for completing the most elemental and basic training we give our adult members (please, don't call me "senior"), and it doesn't make sense to give a ribbon for meeting the most basic requirements (they are given grade after completion!). And since the Leadership Award really isn't given for leadership but rather for technical training, maybe a more apt name could be accorded.
Red Service Ribbon: Rename it the Longevity Ribbon or Service Ribbon. Since there's no "red," "white" and "blue" service ribbon hierarchy anymore, it's probably time to evolve.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 20, 2012, 05:27:01 AMMembership Award and Leadership Award: I'd propose ditching the Membership Award and renaming the Leadership Award. The Membership Award is pretty much given for completing the most elemental and basic training we give our adult members (please, don't call me "senior"), and it doesn't make sense to give a ribbon for meeting the most basic requirements (they are given grade after completion!). And since the Leadership Award really isn't given for leadership but rather for technical training, maybe a more apt name could be accorded.
I'd say dump the "leadership" award, use the ribbon for the O'Davis award, and lose the attachments, or at least greatly
reduce them, since the member gets a badge for the rating already. It also can't keep up for the hard-chargers anyway.
I know of lots of members with long careers who have more then three specialty ratings.
I'd also say we should go to a "highest dec" schema for these (which is an option for seniors already). If you've got a Garber or a Wilson,
it goes without saying you earned a membership, Leadership, O'Davis, and Loening, to get there.
The reduced ribbons would actually make the decs themselves stand out more. - when I'm reading someones rack, I want to see
the high commendations and the service-based awards.
Hey, Bob, it's not O'Davis. It's Benjamin O. (middle initial) Davis. The gentleman does not appear to have significant roots from the British Isles.
Quote from: SarDragon on September 20, 2012, 06:02:53 AM
Hey, Bob, it's not O'Davis. It's Benjamin O. (middle initial) Davis. The gentleman does not appear to have significant roots from the British Isles.
Irish != british.
I don't believe the irish like being associated with the UK
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 20, 2012, 06:04:47 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 20, 2012, 06:02:53 AM
Hey, Bob, it's not O'Davis. It's Benjamin O. (middle initial) Davis. The gentleman does not appear to have significant roots from the British Isles.
Irish != british.
I don't believe the irish like being associated with the UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles) It's a geographical reference, they've been calling that area the British Isles since well before Ireland or the UK existed.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 20, 2012, 06:04:47 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 20, 2012, 06:02:53 AM
Hey, Bob, it's not O'Davis. It's Benjamin O. (middle initial) Davis. The gentleman does not appear to have significant roots from the British Isles.
Irish != british.
I don't believe the irish like being associated with the UK
That was a very carefully chosen reference. I have significant Irish roots, and I'm well aware of all the different land areas involved.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 20, 2012, 05:27:01 AM
A few quick (1:15 a.m.) thoughts, expanding on/developing from the original question and a few comments:
Command Service Ribbon: Graduated commanders should be allowed to wear the command badge under the nameplate, as is Air Force practice. And the Command Service Ribbon should be abolished. For one, it's far too similar to the Community Service Ribbon to be recognizable. But it's also, generally, redundant. And it seems if you make full colonel in CAP, it's a given that you served as a commander or in a vital national leadership role. It should be authorized for O-6 and under, just as it is (I believe?) for Ma Blue.
Specialty badge overload: Someone on here said we needed more specialty badges. We need fewer. In fact, we need to rethink allowing them in three different places on the uniform -- one does nicely, thank you (I've crudely characterized it as "puking shields all over the uniform"). If we didn't have a badge for every specialty track, and instead had chrome-silver badges for general areas of expertise (communications, for instance, would include public affairs and IT), it would help clean up the uniform greatly. Maybe we pattern them like the Air Force's, and they're worn over the ribbons and under the aeronautical rating. Sure, it'd force a choice of badge, but so be it. Highest badge earned (and this would include the IC and GT badges) could be the mandated "choice," denoting the member's strongest contribution/capability. Since we already have stars on the Leadership Award ribbon for specialty tracks, the specialty track badges we have now are pretty much redundant.
Membership Award and Leadership Award: I'd propose ditching the Membership Award and renaming the Leadership Award. The Membership Award is pretty much given for completing the most elemental and basic training we give our adult members (please, don't call me "senior"), and it doesn't make sense to give a ribbon for meeting the most basic requirements (they are given grade after completion!). And since the Leadership Award really isn't given for leadership but rather for technical training, maybe a more apt name could be accorded.
Red Service Ribbon: Rename it the Longevity Ribbon or Service Ribbon. Since there's no "red," "white" and "blue" service ribbon hierarchy anymore, it's probably time to evolve.
+1 good points indeed sir.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 19, 2012, 11:48:47 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 19, 2012, 12:15:05 PM
Upon completion of BMT AF members may have earned 4 ribbons.
I thought it was more than that, with all the GWOT stuff nowadays.
I remember four being possible:
AF Training Ribbon
NDSM
Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon
BMT Hon Grad
FYI, you can not get the GWOT for boot camp or initial training. After you are at your duty assignment you get it.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 20, 2012, 05:39:43 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 20, 2012, 05:27:01 AMMembership Award and Leadership Award: I'd propose ditching the Membership Award and renaming the Leadership Award. The Membership Award is pretty much given for completing the most elemental and basic training we give our adult members (please, don't call me "senior"), and it doesn't make sense to give a ribbon for meeting the most basic requirements (they are given grade after completion!). And since the Leadership Award really isn't given for leadership but rather for technical training, maybe a more apt name could be accorded.
I'd say dump the "leadership" award, use the ribbon for the O'Davis award, and lose the attachments, or at least greatly
reduce them, since the member gets a badge for the rating already. It also can't keep up for the hard-chargers anyway.
I know of lots of members with long careers who have more then three specialty ratings.
I'd also say we should go to a "highest dec" schema for these (which is an option for seniors already). If you've got a Garber or a Wilson,
it goes without saying you earned a membership, Leadership, O'Davis, and Loening, to get there.
The reduced ribbons would actually make the decs themselves stand out more. - when I'm reading someones rack, I want to see
the high commendations and the service-based awards.
No one said you had to wear them all. If a wearer wants to only wear X number of the highest awards, the person can. (Heck, Gen Merrill McPeak's official photo only shows top three on his service coat!)
I would be against a "highest decoration" scheme because a member's ribbons tell the story of a person's career. Let's say I got my GRW. If we're "highest decoration," I can't wear my Garber with a bronze star attachment because I did the Air Force PME. The Membership Award, on the other hand, is essentially a freebie given for completing CAP orientation.
Your contention that the Leadership Award should be cleared of clasps suggests that you're OK with the proliferation of shield-shaped specialty badges on the uniform. Since they can now be worn in three places (where previously, they could only be worn in one), it creates utter confusion and looks cluttering. The Air Force's mantra is, or was, "clean uniform," and so should ours be. Clasps on the Leadership Award show as many as three specialty tracks; part of what I said earlier was that the highest-rating specialty badge could be worn (if mandated that way). So we eliminate two placements of specialty badges that do nothing but add clutter. It gives wearers room for commander's badges (whether active or graduated) as well as an additional badge (for cadets, model rocketry; for uniformed adults, a military badge or CAP staff badge) below the ribbons. It clarifies for all of us what a member's main specialty is, since that's generally going to be the highest-rated one. Mine would be public affairs (communications if consolidated?), and that's what my job is in CAP, anyway.
So we stack the PME ribbons up like this:
-- Wilson Award
-- Garber Award
-- Loening Award
-- Leadership Award (let's call it a Technical Training Ribbon?) with clasps denoting specialty track progress
And that's it. Level I just loses a ribbon that many members wear upside-down anyway. You might convince me that the Loening Award ribbon also doesn't really serve a function, but that's about it.
Some, all or none has been gone from he AF for a long time.
How many ribbons? There are too many ribbons. There is a ribbon for everything nowadays. It is like little league, everyone gets a trophy (certificate) and ribbon for participation.
Cull the herd of redundant ribbons, badges and doodads.
At this point, I would not be surprised if there is a ribbon for not joining, a badge for surviving a 2B attempt, and a clasp for sustained IG investigations.
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on September 20, 2012, 02:20:35 PM
everyone gets a trophy (certificate) and ribbon for participation.
Well, considering we get nothing else...
Having never served AD, I have to ask: do AD officers get a ribbon every time they promote like we do? Do the Reserves/Guard get a ribbon every time they do their 2 week summer duty? Do they get ribbons if they convince their neighbor's kid to join up? Ever since this thread started I have wondered why we get a ribbon for everything except visiting the latrine. Not that I mind; my salad bar is nice with its 11 ribbons and various devices, but it got me wondering if AD/Reserves/Guard got ribbons like we do.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 20, 2012, 02:54:46 PM
Having never served AD, I have to ask: do AD officers get a ribbon every time they promote like we do? Do the Reserves/Guard get a ribbon every time they do their 2 week summer duty? Do they get ribbons if they convince their neighbor's kid to join up? Ever since this thread started I have wondered why we get a ribbon for everything except visiting the latrine. Not that I mind; my salad bar is nice with its 11 ribbons and various devices, but it got me wondering if AD/Reserves/Guard got ribbons like we do.
No they don't. But there's so many BTDT ribbons these days that just about anybody who does just one deployment can look like a Central American Dictator.
When you get promoted in the military, you get another stripe or different officer insignia and the prestige / respect and reponsibility that go with that. A feel good colorful ribbon is superfluous.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 20, 2012, 04:18:08 PM
When you get promoted in the military, you get another stripe or different officer insignia and the prestige / respect and reponsibility that go with that. A feel good colorful ribbon is superfluous.
And let us not forget the pay raise, something we in CAP do not get.
Point of parlimentary procedure your honor:
(a gold star to anyone who gets the reference)
We don't receive a ribbon for CAP promotions. We earn the PD ribbons for completing the different levels of Senior Member Professional Development.
The promotion still requires TIG and approval after completion of said PD level and is not necessarily guaranteed.
Each level requires training and time.
In CAP and the CGAUX, ribbons are our compensation. 'cept in CAP you often have to go out and buy the ribbon when you earn it. In the CGAUX the first award, or an attachment for a subsequent award are provided.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 20, 2012, 04:18:08 PM
When you get promoted in the military, you get another stripe or different officer insignia and the prestige / respect and reponsibility that go with that. A feel good colorful ribbon is superfluous.
Well, duh, I knew that part. I just didn't know if they had a PD program that awards ribbons or certificates for each jump in rank. I guess if AD enlisted got one for each promo like cadets do they'd have a permanent 10-degree list to the left from the weight of all the ribbons.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 20, 2012, 05:08:37 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 20, 2012, 04:18:08 PM
When you get promoted in the military, you get another stripe or different officer insignia and the prestige / respect and reponsibility that go with that. A feel good colorful ribbon is superfluous.
Well, duh, I knew that part. I just didn't know if they had a PD program that awards ribbons or certificates for each jump in rank. I guess if AD enlisted got one for each promo like cadets do they'd have a permanent 10-degree list to the left from the weight of all the ribbons.
If AD Enlisted were able to promote the way CAP cadets are the only "enlisted" personnel we'd have would be the ones coming right out of new recruit training.
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on September 20, 2012, 02:20:35 PM
a badge for surviving a 2B attempt, and a clasp for sustained IG investigations.
Those would be legitimate awards.
I have said before that we should scrap/consolidate a lot of our ribbons and adopt Air Force Civilian Award Medals.
We are civilians, and we work for the Air Force, AUXON/OFF be hanged.
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_CIVILIAN_ACHIEVEMENT.jpg)
Air Force Civilian Achievement Medal
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_CIVILIAN_AWARD_FOR_VALOR.jpg)
Air Force Civilian Award For Valour
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_EXEMPLARY_CIV_SERVICE.jpg)
Air Force Exemplary Civilian Service Medal
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_MERITORIOUS_CIV_SERV.jpg)
Air Force Meritorious Civilian Service Award
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_OUTSTANDING_CIV_SERV.jpg)
Air Force Outstanding Civilian Career Service Award Medal
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/ARMED_FORCES_CIV_SERVICE.jpg)
Armed Forces Civilian Service Medal
(http://www.medalpedia.org/images/7/75/CivilianAirMedal.jpg)
Civilian Air Medal
We could consolidate a LOT of our chest candy within those awards, and it would reinforce our connection with the Air Force...as well as no doubt tick off the anti-military corporate faction within CAP. >:D
Quote from: CyBorg on September 20, 2012, 05:35:39 PM
Quote from: Robert Hartigan on September 20, 2012, 02:20:35 PM
a badge for surviving a 2B attempt, and a clasp for sustained IG investigations.
Those would be legitimate awards.
I have said before that we should scrap/consolidate a lot of our ribbons and adopt Air Force Civilian Award Medals.
We are civilians, and we work for the Air Force, AUXON/OFF be hanged.
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_CIVILIAN_ACHIEVEMENT.jpg)
Air Force Civilian Achievement Medal
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_CIVILIAN_AWARD_FOR_VALOR.jpg)
Air Force Civilian Award For Valour
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_EXEMPLARY_CIV_SERVICE.jpg)
Air Force Exemplary Civilian Service Medal
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_MERITORIOUS_CIV_SERV.jpg)
Air Force Meritorious Civilian Service Award
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/AIR_FORCE_OUTSTANDING_CIV_SERV.jpg)
Air Force Outstanding Civilian Career Service Award Medal
(http://d2jxk7u2ol2fk7.cloudfront.net/image/thumb/large/ARMED_FORCES_CIV_SERVICE.jpg)
Armed Forces Civilian Service Medal
(http://www.medalpedia.org/images/7/75/CivilianAirMedal.jpg)
Civilian Air Medal
We could consolidate a LOT of our chest candy within those awards, and it would reinforce our connection with the Air Force...as well as no doubt tick off the anti-military corporate faction within CAP. >:D
And tick off the Air Force Civilian employees. They don't want a bunch of
wannabes wearing their decorations! >:D
Do AF civilians have a uniform to wear their medals on? Also, do they have corresponding ribbons that match the medals?
Other than the fact that we arent civilian enployees of the AF...... small problem. Id be for
it though. but they would be awarded by the AF. Not CAP. I think you would find CAP members rarely getting medals.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 20, 2012, 06:28:34 PM
Do AF civilians have a uniform to wear their medals on? Also, do they have corresponding ribbons that match the medals?
Uniform - no, not unless they're retired military or Guard/Reserve, and then I have doubts about whether these medals could be worn.
Yes, there are corresponding ribbon bars. However, I didn't see anything about miniature medals.
I hope PHall was being facetious.
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 20, 2012, 06:35:59 PM
Other than the fact that we arent civilian enployees of the AFl...... small problem.
If you mean GS-level employees, no. But when on AFAM's, we are in the Air Force's employ.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 20, 2012, 06:36:05 PMBut when on AFAM's, we are in the Air Force's employ.
A sub-contractor does not an employee make.
OK, so everything everyone is wearing now, what would happen to it? What would happen to everything everyone is wearing now?
That would mean that everyone wearing awards for thing they have done, would go back to being unrecognized for the things they have done, simply because they don't qualify for one of these Air Force civilian awards. So, they frustrated because they get nothing for their efforts, and then they get discouraged because their service doesn't even warrant a ribbon, nothing they do gets recognized, so they quit, and we loose valuable members.
Great idea, let's do it.
Face it, there is no disputing it, our paycheck is on our chest, nowhere else.
So I gotta ask: "Civilian Air Medal"? I had no idea there was such a thing...and how in the heck would one earn it?
Quote from: ProdigalJim on September 20, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
So I gotta ask: "Civilian Air Medal"? I had no idea there was such a thing...and how in the heck would one earn it?
http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066 (http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066)
Quote from: lordmonar on September 20, 2012, 08:52:27 PM
Quote from: ProdigalJim on September 20, 2012, 08:49:38 PM
So I gotta ask: "Civilian Air Medal"? I had no idea there was such a thing...and how in the heck would one earn it?
http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066 (http://www.omsa.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=4066)
Well, okay, I saw that when I Googled it...plus a story about an Army Guard helicopter medic who got one in 2010. Which left me even more confused. Surely an Army medic, in a combat unit, isn't an "Air Force civilian," although evidently she is now in her present job.
I'm imagining, say, civilian advisors who get caught in some kind of aerial furball and do something heroic, or maybe an AF civilian thwarting an aerial hijacking or something like that?
The description seems vague, compared with what it takes as a rated aviator to get the military equivalent.
Most decoration "criteria" is vague......it allows for discretion on part of the awarding authority.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 20, 2012, 08:42:02 PM
OK, so everything everyone is wearing now, what would happen to it? What would happen to everything everyone is wearing now?
Yes - awards and decs are realigned all the time.
Anyone who can't get over it would need to.
There are some ribbons I would like to see removed/merged/consolidated, but there are awards I would like to see created as well.
Do we have "too many" ribbons compared to other services, doing the math, no.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 20, 2012, 08:42:02 PM
OK, so everything everyone is wearing now, what would happen to it? What would happen to everything everyone is wearing now?
That would mean that everyone wearing awards for thing they have done, would go back to being unrecognized for the things they have done, simply because they don't qualify for one of these Air Force civilian awards. So, they frustrated because they get nothing for their efforts, and then they get discouraged because their service doesn't even warrant a ribbon, nothing they do gets recognized, so they quit, and we loose valuable members.
Great idea, let's do it.
Or....they could write a one time only blanket authorisation for a one for one swap.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 20, 2012, 05:27:01 AM
A few quick (1:15 a.m.) thoughts, expanding on/developing from the original question and a few comments:
Command Service Ribbon: Graduated commanders should be allowed to wear the command badge under the nameplate, as is Air Force practice. And the Command Service Ribbon should be abolished. For one, it's far too similar to the Community Service Ribbon to be recognizable. But it's also, generally, redundant. And it seems if you make full colonel in CAP, it's a given that you served as a commander or in a vital national leadership role. It should be authorized for O-6 and under, just as it is (I believe?) for Ma Blue.
Specialty badge overload: Someone on here said we needed more specialty badges. We need fewer. In fact, we need to rethink allowing them in three different places on the uniform -- one does nicely, thank you (I've crudely characterized it as "puking shields all over the uniform"). If we didn't have a badge for every specialty track, and instead had chrome-silver badges for general areas of expertise (communications, for instance, would include public affairs and IT), it would help clean up the uniform greatly. Maybe we pattern them like the Air Force's, and they're worn over the ribbons and under the aeronautical rating. Sure, it'd force a choice of badge, but so be it. Highest badge earned (and this would include the IC and GT badges) could be the mandated "choice," denoting the member's strongest contribution/capability. Since we already have stars on the Leadership Award ribbon for specialty tracks, the specialty track badges we have now are pretty much redundant.
Membership Award and Leadership Award: I'd propose ditching the Membership Award and renaming the Leadership Award. The Membership Award is pretty much given for completing the most elemental and basic training we give our adult members (please, don't call me "senior"), and it doesn't make sense to give a ribbon for meeting the most basic requirements (they are given grade after completion!). And since the Leadership Award really isn't given for leadership but rather for technical training, maybe a more apt name could be accorded.
Red Service Ribbon: Rename it the Longevity Ribbon or Service Ribbon. Since there's no "red," "white" and "blue" service ribbon hierarchy anymore, it's probably time to evolve.
I couldn't agree with your more; especially when certain CAP ribbons can be confused with others.
I don't ususally wear any speciality badges because I have ratings in four specialities and prefer my AF badges and observer wings above anything else. Things like the PA badge and historians badges could be merged. IT could be a function of admin or communications.
Regarding the service ribbon, at one time there were four different service ribbons:red, white blue and silver. Even though the regulations called for individuals to take of the lower ribbon, most people continued to wear all four. One, with the appropriate devices, should be just fine. I would, however, do away with the numbers and just have bronze, silver or gold devices.
I also agree about the Membership and service ribbons. Why not merge the requirements into one when all that is required of the basic (Davis) or leadership ribbon is entry level achievement of a speciality track. The Army, afterall, doesn't award the service ribbon until the completion of a MOS-qualifing course. Would it hurt to have a device specifying staff duty at a SLS, CLS, RSC or NSC, or other course on the appropriate ribbon. It would mean that much more to the recipient because the devices on the ribbon would set that individual apart.
I agree with most, our " ribbons" is our pay check. So yes, if we do something or have an achievment volunteered our time, should we be able to show that we did it. I mean, u can tell who is active in CAP and who just shows up for meetings.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 20, 2012, 06:36:05 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 20, 2012, 06:28:34 PM
Do AF civilians have a uniform to wear their medals on? Also, do they have corresponding ribbons that match the medals?
Uniform - no, not unless they're retired military or Guard/Reserve, and then I have doubts about whether these medals could be worn.
Yes, there are corresponding ribbon bars. However, I didn't see anything about miniature medals.
I hope PHall was being facetious.
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 20, 2012, 06:35:59 PM
Other than the fact that we arent civilian enployees of the AFl...... small problem.
If you mean GS-level employees, no. But when on AFAM's, we are in the Air Force's employ.
Because PHall is correct. There are only 10 or 11 DAFC decorations or service medals and most of them relate to full-time duties. They're guarded and rarely awarded except at the end of a career -- and there is a provision for them to be worn on an Air Force uniform at a specific location that used to be before any good conduct medals.
However, the idea has merit and it would take a lot of roadwork on the part of NHQ, involving the Board of Governors and ultimately asking the CSAF for permission. I would start really small, like for example extending the Humanitarian Service Medal to CAP crews involved in any of the various disaster recovery operations...or how about seeking permission to award the Civilian Air Medal, even though I haven't found it in any formal DoD guidiance.
What would happen if the AF extended the award of the Achievement Medal or Commendation Medal to deserving CAP members? Approval authority would be CAP-USAF.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 20, 2012, 10:20:12 PMWhat would happen if the AF extended the award of the Achievement Medal or Commendation Medal to deserving CAP members?
Ghostbusters - Mass Hysteria (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9NMt42il4Q#ws)
So far it looks like the answers are:
1. Seniors joining today (and as I should have specified, without prior cadet experience): 34.
2. Cadets joining today: 36.
(Both assume that DR w/ "V" is different than DR without, and both could be worn.)
AFROTC: 52
AFJROTC: 44
I didn't see a figure for AD AF types, but may have missed it.
Do we generally agree on these figures at this point?
AD AF enlisted has to be in the upper 40's to the mid 50's range (without cross service awards) it would seem to me.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 20, 2012, 06:36:05 PMI hope PHall was being facetious.
The emoicon >:D wasn't enough of a clue? ::)
Quote from: CyBorg on September 20, 2012, 06:36:05 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 20, 2012, 06:28:34 PM
Do AF civilians have a uniform to wear their medals on? Also, do they have corresponding ribbons that match the medals?
Uniform - no, not unless they're retired military or Guard/Reserve, and then I have doubts about whether these medals could be worn.
Yes, there are corresponding ribbon bars. However, I didn't see anything about miniature medals.
I hope PHall was being facetious.
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 20, 2012, 06:35:59 PM
Other than the fact that we arent civilian enployees of the AFl...... small problem.
If you mean GS-level employees, no. But when on AFAM's, we are in the Air Force's employ.
They can be worn on any military uniform provided they are properly added to ones DD214 or NGB22. Same goes for CAP. As a reservist at WPAFB, quite a few of our reservists were also AF/DOD/DLA/DISA/DIA civilians, and "double dipped" on both paychecks as well as awards and decorations. Its fairly common Ive heard with the AF pilots who have flown for NASA and get some of their candy, or with USMC on embassy duty to get State Dept awards. I had to learn alot of extra regs before we did a blues inspection prior to a change of command, and ALOT of my squadron had civilian, other service, foreign, etc... badges and ribbons to contend with.
Quote from: Devil Doc on September 20, 2012, 09:56:09 PM
I mean, u can tell who is active in CAP and who just shows up for meetings.
Not necessarily. I've said this before, and I don't want to sound like I'm trumpeting myself, but so much of it depends on
who you know and how good you are at "getting noticed." I am a worker bee type, and quite reserved in person (think Reg Barclay on
Star Trek: The Next Generation). I tend to "blend into the woodwork" much of the time. My only decoration is my CommComm, and that was six years ago.
Conversely, I have seen SM's and 2nd Lt's who are friends of the wing king or assorted staff types with two or three CommComm's and Achievement Awards. These are often people who are very extroverted, good at glad-handing, etc., which I am awful at. If you're familiar with the Briggs-Meyers personality tests, think ISFJ.
I'm not trying to sound resentful, just stating an unfortunate truth that is applicable to many situations in life: it's too often
who you know, not
what you do. And I'm sure not going to go around asking for awards.
Quote from: PHall on September 21, 2012, 12:14:41 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on September 20, 2012, 06:36:05 PMI hope PHall was being facetious.
The emoicon >:D wasn't enough of a clue? ::)
I thought so, but didn't want to assume.
WRT speciality badges...I have two, a Technician badge for Safety and a Master's badge for Administration. I usually only wear them on my service coat. The only one I wear on my blue/white shirt is my Observer wings.
My personal feeling on the wear of other than CAP awards/ribbons on ANY CAP uniform (including the AF style) is that it should be prohibited. Again all military awards/ribbons are prohibited for wear on ANY CAP uniform. This also includes any other military occupational designation badges/corps designations/various air crew wings.
Since members who wear an "appropriate" uniform such as the grey & whites/blazers are prohibited by the AF from wearing armed forces ribbons, CAP should have a consistent approach that does not punish members for their choice to wear of a specific uniform type and has a level playing field consistent with respect for all members.
HOWEVER, IF CAP along with other military related organizations are willing to approach the USAF, USN, USMC and propose a consistent regulation DOD wide, that on an "appropriate" civilian type clothing/uniform (including all Civil Air Patrol Uniforms, including the white/grey, and blazer, American Legion, VFW, etc uniforms) that earned military awards/ribbons may be worn.
See: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/a/medalwear.htm (http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/a/medalwear.htm) the Army regulation that currently skirts this authorization.
....... Army Regulation 670-1, paragraph 30-6, says that former members of the Army (including active duty, reserves, or Army National Guard), may wear medals on "appropriate" civilian clothing on Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at "formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature." "Appropriate" civilian clothes includes clothes designed for veteran and patriotic organizations, such as VFW or American Legion uniforms. You can wear either the full-size or miniture-size medals. You should place the medals and decorations in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to medals worn on the Army uniform.........
HOWEVER, regarding any other badges/designators on the CAP uniform NONE should be allowed, ONLY CAP related functional badges/designators/aeronautical awarded ratings should be worn on ANY CAP uniform.
RM
It seems like this discussion has moved to an older discussion -> http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11331.0 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11331.0)
As the last poster in that discussion, I add my attachments here for further discussion since I made a couple minor changes since then.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 16, 1970, 02:29:49 PM
Again all military awards/ribbons are prohibited for wear on ANY CAP uniform.
Wrong on both counts;
5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence. See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence
Military Badges
6-7. US Military Badges. CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. The military badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5. Before wearing any badge not listed in this table, contact National HeadquartersLMM for clarification. US Military badges are not authorized for wear on any of the CAP distinctive uniforms.
For some who throws out an AFI every chance he gets brush up on the uniform manual before putting out bad info.
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 21, 2012, 02:16:58 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 16, 1970, 02:29:49 PM
Again all military awards/ribbons are prohibited for wear on ANY CAP uniform.
Wrong on both counts;
5-4. Military Service Awards.
Military Badges
6-7. US Military Badges.
For some who throws out an AFI every chance he gets brush up on the uniform manual before putting out bad info.
What I'm saying is that CAP uniform wear whether it be the white/grey or blues should be consistent in authorization for wear of earned military ribbons & military badges. Remember it is a CAP uniform regarding CAP members, NOT an AF uniform being worn by AF members.
CAP can make any policy they want regarding what they will prohibit from wearing on the AF style uniform.
Since CAP is unwilling to get the USAF (and other services, with perhaps the exception of the Army) to agree that the wear of military service awards/badges on (what i would term "appropriate" civilian wear type uniform (similar to American Legion & VFW uniforms mentioned in the Army Regulation), in all fairness to all than NO military awards/badges should NOT be authorized for wear on ANY CAP uniform.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 21, 2012, 02:27:38 AM
Army Regulation), in all fairness to all than NO military awards/badges should NOT be authorized for wear on ANY CAP uniform.
RM
So military awards/badges should be authorized for wear on any CAP uniform. Take out the double negative.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 21, 2012, 02:34:59 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 21, 2012, 02:27:38 AM
Army Regulation), in all fairness to all than NO military awards/badges should NOT be authorized for wear on ANY CAP uniform.
RM
So military awards/badges should be authorized for wear on any CAP uniform. Take out the double negative.
Military awards should be authorized on ALL uniforms. IF it can't than NO military awards should be worn on ANY style of the CAP uniform.
Regarding badges, NONE should be authorized for wear on ANY CAP uniform.
Sorry my eyes are tired.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 21, 2012, 01:10:07 AMSince members who wear an "appropriate" uniform such as the grey & whites/blazers
Amazing.
(http://th306.photobucket.com/albums/nn245/marie01_08/Smileys%20and%20Stuff/th_AnimatedRollingEyesSmiley.gif)
And there is the catch all if it can't be worn on corp uniforms, because I don't want to shave or meet h/w then no one should.
RM does have a point. By restricting the wear of RM decs/awards/etc to only the AF style uniforms, that creates another level of separation between the uniform "classes" (for lack of a better word). We've all heard (or felt) the notion that those who don't wear the AF-style uniforms are somehow "2nd class".
I understand that it's the other military branches that are restricting the wear of their ribbons. I have no idea what kind of mountain moving it would take on the part of NHQ to get something like that in the regs, though.
To be perfectly honest, I'd prefer not to reduce the number of ribbons we can receive. I'm one who is motivated by earning grade and ribbons. As it's been said, it's part of our "paycheck". So I work harder knowing that I'll get some recognition. I also do this in my professional life. I've won numerous advertising awards and it feels good. It's the only recognition people in my field get.
I guess I don't understand why creating a system to recognize good work in a volunteer organization is bad.
Don't overlook the fact he's anti any uniform not corp. I get that there are some who can not wear the AF style for reasons, but there are some that choose not too. Don't penalize current/retired service members to level the playing field.
I dint get this whole fat and fuzzy thing. I've seen SMs in blues/bdu who needed a shave a day or two prior. I've seen SM who clearly are too heavy for AF uniforms wear them, wear them incorrectly, and neither care nor have anyone in their leadership willing to have that "hard" talk. Call me a cynic, but very few people wear the g/w "because they have to" Most wear them because they like the uniform and it is easy/cheap to maintain.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 21, 2012, 03:32:15 AM
I dint get this whole fat and fuzzy thing. I've seen SMs in blues/bdu who needed a shave a day or two prior. I've seen SM who clearly are too heavy for AF uniforms wear them, wear them incorrectly, and neither care nor have anyone in their leadership willing to have that "hard" talk. Call me a cynic, but very few people wear the g/w "because they have to" Most wear them because they like the uniform and it is easy/cheap to maintain.
Just because some members lack the integrity to do the right thing doesn't excuse them. I don't like the g/w but since I don't meet the ht/wt requirements I "have to" to do otherwise would reflect poorly on me. I particularlly dislike not being able to wear any of my military ribbons and being looked upon as some kind of second class citizen.
To buy and maintain a set of g/w costs just as much if not more than the AF style.
Allllrighty I think I may jump into the fire for a bit. 8)
Regarding too many 'candy' ribbons. Because of the host of different ways one can get promoted I can see value in the PD ribbons still. (The senior who has come up through the PD program to become Captain vs the CFI who did Lvl 1 and then pinned on Capt.)
I can see the argument to shed the Membership ribbon but I can also see it as a way of saying 'thank you' and a tiny bit of motivation for someone who has just come into the program. If done with a little bit of ceremony and genuine appreciation it can help the newbie feel wanted and valued in the 6 months prior to pinning on 2d Lt. I don't have a problem with that.
Regarding G/Ws vs Blues. It actually cost me more money to set up G/Ws than it did blues and requires more work to put them on in some cases. I'm an AD AF Officer. I need to switch out 2 things on my shirt and 'Poof!' CAP shirt. 1 thing on my flight cap. Service dress is even easier. I also wear the G/Ws sometimes (rarely) and (if you couldn't guess) I am neither fat nor fuzzy. I wear them in the same manner in which I wear my blues. Mx on them is just as heavy. Comfort is the same as blues.
I don't wear any of my military ribbons on any of my CAP uniforms. I'm not a big guy (5'7" 130lbs) so I just don't have room for that many ribbons plus my various wings/badges. The only AF item I regularly wear on my uniform is my missile badge. At NSC we could only wear 2 badges total on G/Ws and Blues (don't know why, but hey) and I was a little bummed but I played around with what 2 to wear and it amused me on some level. The few days I wore G/Ws I was a little bummed I couldn't wear my missile badge, but I got over it. If a young little pup like me can do it, so can our older vets.
As to the whole second-class citizen I think that is a cultural problem and a completely different issue that isn't going to go away no matter what you do with uniforms.
There are vets out there who feel like they should be given 'extra' recognition or that somehow others in CAP don't 'deserve' or haven't 'earned' the right to wear officer insignia to begin with. Frankly, the vast majority of vets never earned the right to wear officer insignia either, so tough. I wear O-4 rank in CAP and have done so while an O-2 and O-3 on AD. My AD Sq/CC (an AD O-5) would tease me sometimes, but he teased me regardless. He had quite a bit of respect for what I did. The better things we do as CAP, the less the people who have AD rank are going to care what we are wearing. They'll know who we are, and what we do, and the majority won't care what we wear. The ones with sticks up their rears may get all bent out of shape, but they tend to get bent out of shape no matter what.
There are those who feel they are treated as a second-class citizen and I tell you that can happen no matter what we wear. Some pilots treat non-pilots like second class citizens. Some ES folks treat non-ES folks that way. Some ground team members do it. Some Cadet Programs members treat anyone who doesn't want to work with cadets for whatever reason that way. Comm guys, commanders, dudes from one wing or specific squadrons. People like to feel they are more equal than others. As long as you get a group of more than about...2 you have a pretty decent chance of someone being treated like a second-class citizen.
To get back closer to the topic: AD does give out 'congratulations you did a decent job at your job and didn't kill anyone' awards. At the end of a duty assignment the vast majority of people give out some kind of service award. It's roughly tied to your rank in many cases.
An enlisted member of the AF, only in the AF, can earn about 55 ribbons
An officer, who has only been in the AF, can earn about 48 ribbons
Also of note: There is an enlisted-only AF NCO PME Graduate ribbon.
As to ribbon addition/removal: I may send it up at some point but with regards to the command service ribbon vs the badge. I would like us to dump the command service ribbon and use the basic command badge the way the USAF does. All current commanders O-6 and below wear it above the name plate, all former wear it below. No difference for SQ, Gp, or Wg. This would also provide the benefit amongst the O-6 crowd of identifying who is a current Wing or Region CC vs who was one, vs who was one of those high-up NHQ level positions that garnered O-6 for a bit. It would also be 1 less ribbon, and a fair trade I would say. And mirrors the AD USAF which I think is a good thing.
Now back to your regular squabbles.
I don't see taking ribbons out being any sort of solution, instead Why don't we make it to where only the highest PD award be worn?
On the subject of Ad awards and badges, I have no idea Why it hasn't been made possible for everyone to wear their awards. This is a uniform, not a hoodie and blue jeans. The Army has the right idea when it comes to awards, once you earn them, they are yours to display when appropriate. According to Army regulations, you can wear your awards on the corporate uniform, but it is CAPs regulation that negates it.
I have suggest this before....I hate the "highest" award BS for seniors or cadets.
Just make a single ribbon (Cadet Programs Ribbon and Senior PD Ribbon) that replaces the curry through Earheart and the Membership through Garber ribbons.
So achievement 1 gets you a ribbon and you just add bugs to it as you move up.
Level I gets you a ribbon and you add bugs to it as you move up through level IV.
Keep the Willson and Spaatz as they are.
So a cadet Spaatz type who crosses over to SM would wear both his Spaatz and his Cadet Programs Ribbon with a four silver bugs (one for each milestone).
I found this silly ribbon chart on a Canadian site.
(http://www.reocities.com/squadron400/ribbons.gif)
Take special note of the Temporary Duty In The USA Ribbons.
I remember my DCC, who was a C-130 navigator, telling us once that they actually did this for joint exercises in the US because the Canadians didn't want to be upstaged by first lieutenants and A1Cs.
Quote from: jeders on September 21, 2012, 04:53:04 PM
I remember my DCC, who was a C-130 navigator, telling us once that they actually did this for joint exercises in the US because the Canadians didn't want to be upstaged by first lieutenants and A1Cs.
Or CAP cadets. 8)
I agree with either all uniforms or no uniforms when it comes to wearing Military Awards or Ribbons. We earned them so why not?
Also, wouldnt the same argument be about jrotc ribbons on CAP uniforms? EG: JROTC plus CAP?
So disagree. Those that have mil decs and badges should not have to give up the option of wearing them soley based on one's choice or lack of choice in uniforms. We get rid of that option, then might as well change other regs as well to even the playing field.
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 21, 2012, 10:49:46 PM
So disagree. Those that have mil decs and badges should not have to give up the option of wearing them soley based on one's choice or lack of choice in uniforms. We get rid of that option, then might as well change other regs as well to even the playing field.
CAP says they can't because G/W is a "Civilian style" uniform. Yet the Veterans Administration (AKA US Government) says wear them on civilian attire on appropriate occassions.
Quote from: MSG Mac on September 21, 2012, 11:37:39 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 21, 2012, 10:49:46 PM
So disagree. Those that have mil decs and badges should not have to give up the option of wearing them soley based on one's choice or lack of choice in uniforms. We get rid of that option, then might as well change other regs as well to even the playing field.
CAP says they can't because G/W is a "Civilian style" uniform. Yet the Veterans Administration (AKA US Government) says wear them on civilian attire on appropriate occassions.
Sir, my disagreement is with the thought of not being allowed to wear them, because 39-1 says you can wear them on the AF style uniform and not the corporate ones. That same instruction says the min uniform is the AF blues unless you choose not to comply with grooming standards and h/w standards established for it.
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 21, 2012, 10:49:46 PM
So disagree. Those that have mil decs and badges should not have to give up the option of wearing them soley based on one's choice or lack of choice in uniforms. We get rid of that option, then might as well change other regs as well to even the playing field.
So you agree we should be able to wear our mil decs on any CAP uniform? If so, I 1000% agree.
Quote from: Devil Doc on September 22, 2012, 03:17:16 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 21, 2012, 10:49:46 PM
So disagree. Those that have mil decs and badges should not have to give up the option of wearing them soley based on one's choice or lack of choice in uniforms. We get rid of that option, then might as well change other regs as well to even the playing field.
So you agree we should be able to wear our mil decs on any CAP uniform? If so, I 1000% agree.
What I disagree with is the notion that they should not be allowed to be worn simply because people choose to wear an alternative uniform where it is not authorized. I shoud not have to be penalized, alienated or what ever term you want to use simply because someone chooses to not shave or meet h/w standards.
As most know, the G/W uniform is an attempt borne out of the collective whacking CAP got in the early '90s for the actions of a few idiots.
The early version, which I remember, was as plain as you get - the blazer-style nameplate only, no ribbons, no wings (?), no epaulettes, period. A CAP member could have three Silver Medals of Valour and no uniform to display it on if they didn't meet the standards for the blues.
When the grey epaulettes/nameplate were adopted, then CAP-only brass and fruit salad could be worn...which was a heck of a lot better than before, but still incomplete. There was still no authorised headgear (the baseball cap? PLEASE...) or service-dress type coat (the blazer? PLEASE...).
As far as CAP considering the G/W a "civilian" uniform and the AF-type to not be "civilian"...incorrect. The modifications to make the AF uniform a CAP uniform, worn by civilian volunteers, make it a civilian uniform. The SDF Air units who wear it, who modify it less than we do (and the AF is silent on that), with what modifications they do make, make it a uniform of that State's SDF. Any modification made to the AF uniform that makes it different to the way AF members wear it, makes it a different uniform.
My point? BOTH uniforms are "civilian," and what is allowed on one should be allowed on the other.
This is another example of the schizoid nature of CAP, and another example of the walking-on-eggshells mentality that has pervaded uniform issues ever since the berry boards...the fear (unfounded or otherwise) that anything that isn't grey will tick off the AF.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 22, 2012, 07:06:45 AM
...
As far as CAP considering the G/W a "civilian" uniform and the AF-type to not be "civilian"...incorrect. The modifications to make the AF uniform a CAP uniform, worn by civilian volunteers, make it a civilian uniform. The SDF Air units who wear it, who modify it less than we do (and the AF is silent on that), with what modifications they do make, make it a uniform of that State's SDF. Any modification made to the AF uniform that makes it different to the way AF members wear it, makes it a different uniform.
My point? BOTH uniforms are "civilian," and what is allowed on one should be allowed on the other.
...
So I guess if all CAP uniforms are indeed civilian then there is no need for the so-called fat & fuzzy types not to be able to wear the blues. Why have military standards to wear a civilian uniform? Also, if they are all civilian uniforms why would military awards even be considered proper to wear in the first place?
I see your point Vandy, which is valid. What I was saying, if they are both considered " Civilian" uniforms, then how can Mil Dec be worn on one and not the other?
I would love to wear the Blues to display proudly my accomplishments, I dont mind shaving, nor do I mind keeping my hair in regs. It is my weight that is stopping me. I am 50 pounds or so over the weight standards, and it really embarrasses me that I am this weight. On the other hand, I am also disabled, and have been through some rough times dealing with anxiety and PTSD which I would eat to help calm down. Also, I have an Herniated Disc, Pinched Nerve, and Sleep Apnea and other combinations that make it difficult to "PT" let alone move around alot.
Doc, I used to eat to help with my issues, PTSD is no joke, I have found walking helps me better than food. Getting different sights and smells bring me back the best, it's smell that gets to me the most.
It seems every time someone comes up with a uniform suggestion, it always breaks into an us vs. them issue about the AF uniforms and the G/Ws.
This whole issue about military/CAP ribbons also seems to be an us vs. them mentality. The problem becomes that we are volunteers and things like promotions and awards and decorations are about the only way you can recognize a member's service. The thing is, if you want to wear a uniform, than take the steps necessary to look good in it. If you don't like the limitations on the G/Ws, than change something.
I also don't get the NHQ mentality about not allowing military decorations/awards on a "corporate" uniform when the appropriate services allow them to be worn with civilian clothes. It's the same with state NG Awards and Decorations. The appropriate AF Regulation says that they can't be worn on active duty...but we're not on active duty.
I just don't believe that another ribbon is necessary when a single ribbon with the appropriate devices would serve just as well...just like the Air Force and Army PME ribbons. Why do you need five or six ribbons just to progress through the senior member training program. Also, how often do I hear people insisting that the Crossfield Ribbon be dropped.
I feel the same way about the command service ribbon. I don't understand why NHQ won't allow the badge to continue to be worn...afterall, I was a group commander and the ribbon just doen't cut it for me.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 22, 2012, 03:33:18 PM
It seems every time someone comes up with a uniform suggestion, it always breaks into an us vs. them issue about the AF uniforms and the G/Ws.
Which is exacerbated by both factions. Those who want us to wear the AF uniform and really, falsely think of those who wear the "alternative" uniforms as "not as Air Force." Then there are those who are zealots for making everything grey (inexplicable), and actively campaign for CAP to ditch the AF uniform, because as civilians we have "no business" wearing it and to do so would (supposedly) remove the possibility of PTAFO (work it out) from the equation once and for all.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 22, 2012, 03:33:18 PM
The thing is, if you want to wear a uniform, than take the steps necessary to look good in it.
In many cases easier said than done. Yes, you can buy a disposable razor and can of Edge and visit the barber. However, the H/W issue isn't so easily resolved. Some people have genetic conditions causing obesity, take medications with weight gain as side effects (yours truly) and a myriad of other reasons beyond human control. It's not an issue of just being too fat from too many Quarter Pounders with cheese, though that is certainly one factor. The Air Force's H/W stipulations are just plain illogical in many cases, given that I have personally seen AD, ANG and AFRES who would not meet the standards to wear the CAP/AF uniform.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 22, 2012, 03:33:18 PM
If you don't like the limitations on the G/Ws, than change something.
That would take an act of God.
NHQ is, to my estimation, so firmly entrenched in keeping the "corporate" uniforms status-quo that
any changes, like mine of swopping the white shirt for a blue
civilian airline shirt, probably wouldn't make it past Group level. And headgear? Don't even get started on
that, at least not on CT.
In fact, proposing
any changes to the G/W on CT usually brings down a chorus of "it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 22, 2012, 03:33:18 PM
I also don't get the NHQ mentality about not allowing military decorations/awards on a "corporate" uniform when the appropriate services allow them to be worn with civilian clothes. It's the same with state NG Awards and Decorations. The appropriate AF Regulation says that they can't be worn on active duty...but we're not on active duty.
And many SDF's allow CAP ribbons to be worn. SDF's seem to be able to make whatever changes they want to their respective service uniforms (or virtually none at all) with no stipulations from the active duty side, except for the slim handful of Naval Militias who wear the USMC uniform (no EGA). Change the nameplate/collar brass? It's all good. Allow CAP anything but grey accoutrements? When pigs fly.
Besides, we
had a popular, good-looking uniform that was taken from us on a whim, for
excuses reasons less likely to be known than finding functional speakers of Esperanto, Old Church Slavonic or Old Norse in today's world.
Quote from: flyboy1 on September 22, 2012, 03:33:18 PM
Also, how often do I hear people insisting that the Crossfield Ribbon be dropped.
I've never heard that.
So what can we do to get NHQ to change these regs?
Manfred, yes the smells get me also, especially during the winter and fall months when people are burning there wooden stoves smells just like Iraq, well atleast the part I was in. The main reason why i joined CAP is to try to stay Active on an Ground Team, and/or my State relies on CAP for DR instead of the NG, so that helps also. We train alot on DR/HS drills, it can be an workout.
I have no issues with those who can't wear the AF style due to medical or genetic issues. Those do not seem to be the ones crying about wearing mil awards. If you are able to wear either AF or Corp uniform and CHOOSE to wear corp for whatever reason, don't knock those who can and choose to wear the AF style and their mil decs.
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 22, 2012, 04:55:11 PM
I have no issues with those who can't wear the AF style due to medical or genetic issues.
I agree, now where can we sign that waiver :D
If you are able to wear either AF or Corp uniform and CHOOSE to wear corp for whatever reason, don't knock those who can and choose to wear the AF style and their mil decs.
true
My big smell issue is burning trash. Ramadi smelled like burning trash, constanly. Every time I smell it, I kinda space out.
I gained about 25 from eating, but since walking, I have lost 20. And I feel much better... But I also picked smoking back up so I don't have all the appetite either, not any better is it?
Not Really, I quit smoking cigarettes and Drinking all together, (well I smoke cigarettes every now and then). I had to quit drinking, the cocktail of meds I take do not mix well with ETOH. Burning tires, can never get that smell out of your nostrils, I was near the Syrian Border, Al Qaim Area. We patroled north of the river, fun fun.
Ramadi, Capitol of the Suni province. South shore of the Euphrates. They burned trash constantly.
I was never much of a drinker... Thank God. It's hard to kick what has kept you sane for so long... Already what has kept you from going more insane than you already are. Lol
So how do we "Band of Brothers" together, and change the NHQ regulations?
Off topic......
Devil Doc
Thank you for your choice of career path. I see your NAM "V" and your PH which I interpret to mean youve put it on the line for somebody when it was hitting the fan. When I was a squad leader in weapons platoon the Corpsman was in my squad. We never wanted him to stand watch or do anything but just relax. He always insisted that he never wanted to be treated any different. Humped the 240 and the .50 cal right along with everyone else. We taught him how to crew the guns, call for fire, etc etc. We often commented that our Corpsman was the best Marine in the platoon >:D He chose to stay Navy reg vs Marine Reg. I always thought it was cool having a platoon of Marines in our Alphas with the Corpsman in his cracker jacks in formation. Sort of engrained the Marine/Navy relationship.......and it was a good visual for him to remember that we out numbered him 40-1 >:D
Thank you, Flying Pig
I seldomly let people know what I have done, or that I was even in the service. The tue heros in my mind are the ones that never made it home, and I am thankfull that I did. As I said before I cannot wear my ribbons on my G/W, so I just wear my 2 CAP ribbons.
On the topic of SDFs, do the active services actually get any say in what they wear? I know the NGs fall under title 10 and 39, and I suppose could have completely different uniforms for the different occasions. Do the SDFs ever fall under title 10 of the USC?
Do SDFs ever receive any kind of federal funding or oversight?
If the answer is no to both, then it's possible (likely) that the USAF either doesn't have a say, and doesn't give a crap, or has no say in the matter. They are the Federal Agency that administers a good chunk of our funding from Congress (it isn't from their budget, but they watch over it.) That's a very different relationship.
And as for the CG/CGAux...I love the CG, but they kinda do their own thing. They have forever lived in the realm 'Are we in the military?' To which the answer is a very clear 'Sorta, definitely yes except when no. But we still love ya...' So perhaps it's not the best comparison.
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on September 22, 2012, 08:32:21 PM
On the topic of SDFs, do the active services actually get any say in what they wear? I know the NGs fall under title 10 and 39, and I suppose could have completely different uniforms for the different occasions. Do the SDFs ever fall under title 10 of the USC?
I don't believe they do. Any connection they have to Federal military regulations would be through their respective state AG's. I know that in the vast majority of cases, SDF's are not deployable outside the boundaries of their state, except at the request of another state's Governor. Overseas, absolutely not.
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on September 22, 2012, 08:32:21 PM
Do SDFs ever receive any kind of federal funding or oversight?
I'm going to say that other than funds appropriated for each state's ArNG/ANG, no.
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on September 22, 2012, 08:32:21 PM
If the answer is no to both, then it's possible (likely) that the USAF either doesn't have a say, and doesn't give a crap, or has no say in the matter. They are the Federal Agency that administers a good chunk of our funding from Congress (it isn't from their budget, but they watch over it.) That's a very different relationship.
I can see why you would think that, but I still don't think it could/would be that way. The USAF's uniform is
theirs, if nothing else in a proprietary sense, and they
could veto its use by the handful of SDF Air units. They could, through the office of the Director, ANG, say "these SDF's don't wear the uniform unless they play ball by our rules."
I remember back in the '90s I saw an SDF Air 1st Lieutenant at an airshow, wearing blues with the waist-length jacket. The
only modifiers he was wearing was additional wording on his (blue) nameplate and a state badge on the left side of his flight cap (which still had hard rank). His jacket was hanging open, unzipped, and he quite likely would not have met CAP standards to wear the AF uniform. So I would think that the Air Force would care about how their uniform is being worn if nothing else.
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on September 22, 2012, 08:32:21 PM
And as for the CG/CGAux...I love the CG, but they kinda do their own thing. They have forever lived in the realm 'Are we in the military?' To which the answer is a very clear 'Sorta, definitely yes except when no. But we still love ya...' So perhaps it's not the best comparison.
They are still at all times an armed force of the United States and subject to the UCMJ.
I was a CG Auxiliarist some years ago. The CG prescribes very little limitations to the Aux uniform, other than their silver sleeve lace...and they treat their Auxiliary much differently (none of the AUXON/OFF B.S.). Their members also can wear, to the best of my knowledge, any and all military awards earned and duly documented.
I was a CG Auxiliarist some years ago. The CG prescribes very little limitations to the Aux uniform, other than their silver sleeve lace...and they treat their Auxiliary much differently (none of the AUXON/OFF B.S.). Their members also can wear, to the best of my knowledge, any and all military awards earned and duly documented.
[/quote]
Then why dosn't CAP do this if the CGAUX does?
Also, im assuming an SDF is an State Defense Force. Which my state does not have, but i can tell you, that our state is using us for DHS and DR missions, so i guess we are as close as you can get for an SDF.
Quote from: Devil Doc on September 22, 2012, 07:49:14 PM
So how do we "Band of Brothers" together, and change the NHQ regulations?
Best guess, petition. Get a form up online, here would probably be the best bet, and get people who want all to be able to wear all their awards to list their name and CAPID. Once we reach a thousand or two names, send it up the chain. Even if there isn't two thousand members on this site, word of mouth will get it rolling.
Brandon (Devil Doc), Sorry to hear of your physical issues as well as your battles with PTSD. I cannot even begin to understand your struggles. Having served only 3 years and it all being peacetime, I left the Army fairly unscathed. I imagine it is very difficult to maintain one's weight with those issues.
I am a little heavy for the H&W standards but am a heck of a lot closer to them than many members I see wearing the blues. My hair is always pretty much within military limits within an inch or so and I rarely have facial hair anymore so the grooming is not an issue with me.
I could probably wear the blues with CAP awards plus my few Army ribbons and Air Assault badge if I chose to without any hassle. I just choose not to as it is my personal belief that military uniforms and decorations are for current military members though I see no harm with war vets wearing theirs on certain days which I believe they are allowed to do. As a peacetime REMF, I do not feel that I am entitled to it. I have too much respect for both the military services and the individuals who did actually make a real sacrifice.
Personally, if CAP would limit the wear of military decorations to those earned in combat by men such as you, I would be more accepting of it. I just feel that those in my category of service who desire to plaster their chest with as much candy as possible need to get a grip. We are no longer in the military & those awards have no relevance to CAP, so why wear them? I will wear my CAP pilot wings on all my CAP uniforms but I see no need or justification to wear my Air Assault badge. As I don't believe we rappel out of aircraft during our missions, it has no relevance.
David, don't feel bad, or like your service means any less than any of us who Were deployed. You Were ready, if you Were given the order to deploy, you would have, just like we did. We Were of the same mindset, ready to do what must be done for those who depended upon us. You voluntarily put yourself in that place, ready to move when told. Thank you for that. Be proud of it.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 23, 2012, 12:45:38 AM
Brandon (Devil Doc), Sorry to hear of your physical issues as well as your battles with PTSD. I cannot even begin to understand your struggles. Having served only 3 years and it all being peacetime, I left the Army fairly unscathed. I imagine it is very difficult to maintain one's weight with those issues.
I am a little heavy for the H&W standards but am a heck of a lot closer to them than many members I see wearing the blues. My hair is always pretty much within military limits within an inch or so and I rarely have facial hair anymore so the grooming is not an issue with me.
I could probably wear the blues with CAP awards plus my few Army ribbons and Air Assault badge if I chose to without any hassle. I just choose not to as it is my personal belief that military uniforms and decorations are for current military members though I see no harm with war vets wearing theirs on certain days which I believe they are allowed to do. As a peacetime REMF, I do not feel that I am entitled to it. I have too much respect for both the military services and the individuals who did actually make a real sacrifice.
Personally, if CAP would limit the wear of military decorations to those earned in combat by men such as you, I would be more accepting of it. I just feel that those in my category of service who desire to plaster their chest with as much candy as possible need to get a grip. We are no longer in the military & those awards have no relevance to CAP, so why wear them? I will wear my CAP pilot wings on all my CAP uniforms but I see no need or justification to wear my Air Assault badge. As I don't believe we rappel out of aircraft during our missions, it has no relevance.
You earned it, wear it. Proudly. And I don't think the epithet REMF applies to you; you were training for front-line work, not something that would have kept you in the safety of a fire base or even a stateside post.
And FYI, I think most folks here would say the same thing regarding your service, like Manfred. Me, on the other hand, can claim zero service since I got out on an ELS 4 weeks into basic training. When people ask me, I tell them no, I did not serve. To me, it doesn't count, like quitting a job halfway through orientation.
I cant agree more, just because you did not deploy, does not mean your service should not count. The call would have been answered if it came down to it and you would have been there just like us.
Quote from: spacecommand on September 18, 2012, 04:54:39 PM
For Senior Members (joining today without prior cadet membership):
10 Decorations (Silver Medal of Valor to Unit Citation)
5 Professional Development Awards (level I - V)
2 Aerospace Education Awards (Yeager & Crossfield)
2 Service Awards (Red Service and Command Service)
14 Activity ribbons (this is counting the Disaster Relief Ribbon and Disaster Relief ribbon with V device separately, as they should be)
= 33 ribbons
Though the likelyhood of a SM receiving all those award in their CAP career is extremely rare, they must be a "Super Senior".
NO. DR w/V and DR are not two separate awards. If you already have a DR ribbon and do something to earn a "V" , you don't put on another DR ribbon with the device on it. You simply add the V to the one you got. This is just like the Bronze Star in the RM. You can earn a BS for service(usually in a combat setting/I believe this is usually awarded to enlisted and junior officers/Senior officers would get a Legion of Merit for the same thing.) You can also earn the BS for Valor(also usually in a combat situation) and wear the ribbon with the "V" device attached. You don't wear two separate ribbons because one is for Valor and one is for Service. Same would apply with its use for the DR ribbon.
One may argue that you can't really earn the plain old DR ribbon anymore because some of the courses don't exist. Well, there are a lot of DR missions out there that don't qualify for the V because they aren't declared a "presidential" disaster. Regardless, this does not change the way these things work just because CAP can't or won't get someone to edit their regs and make them clear and consistent across the board.
Sir-
The regulation is pretty clear. There are different requirements for the DR w/o V and the DR w V. Just because you do not like the wording of the regulation or think there are holes in it, you should not "adjust" or reinterpret it.
Also, your logic that it is like the RM ribbon does not apply, that is a military award. Not CAP. The attachments for CAP ribbons like stars, clasps, and propellers are discussed in the para that governs such award. In contrast, the Disaster Relief ribbons are covered in two different paras, numbered differently, for the DR awards.
Para 21 (f) covers DR ribbon. Para 21 (g) covers DR with V device. Two different paras, two different awards. Tell me it is the same ribbon when both are covered in the same para with the same number it is renumbered as "21 (f) 1. DR ribbon for Red Cross classes and mission part... 21 (f) 2. V device for this ribbon..."
You cannot reinterpret CAP regulations like CAP commanders senior members like to do. Otherwise we are teaching cadets to disregard regulations if they do not like its wording. And at their age, this carries to real life. "I do not like to stop at a red light, therefore, I will zip through" is one of the results. I know, I know, it is an extreme example, but I hope you get my drift...
Flyer
While you may be awarded the ribbon with a "V" device for serving in a presidential disaster, the real award is the "V" device not the ribbon itself. I myself already have a DR ribbon. If I were to participate in a presidential disaster, I would not be awarded a DR ribbon with a "V" device. My commander would cut orders to award the "V" device. If you do not have the DR ribbon previously, you would be awarded the DR ribbon for participation but it is the device that denotes it as a "presidential" disaster. I am not reinterpreting anything.
That is not true.
I was awarded the DR for the Red Cross classes and missions. Then after Sept 11 I was also awarded the DR ribbon with V device. It does not say anything to "add the V device to the DR ribbon."
You have not answered my statement.
Two different paras, different criteria, makes it two different devices. Para 21 f and para 21 g.
This seems to be the prevalent view of the majority of members posting here as well as that of Ms Parker, of NHQ, in a 2008 CAP Knowledge Base message.
Flyer
Quote from: Ned on September 23, 2012, 06:48:18 AM
I think a few reminders might be in order.
Our AF colleagues control the wear of our AF style uniforms, and they take this responsibility seriously. If and when we make requests to change our AF style uniforms, we staff the requests through our partners at CAP-USAF. The AF has their own internal staff approval process on these requests, but generally has been very supportive of us in the past.
The AF does not believe it is allowable for us to wear military badges or ribbons on our corporate uniforms. Some of you here clearly disagree with them, and have some good examples to support your position. But the point remains that after consulting with their legal types, they believe it to be improper and that does not seem likely to change in the near future. It may be that if we could get their legal types and ours to sit down together and go over the relevant statutes and DoD regulations / policies that progress could be made, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
I would think that the AF (as well as other military services) policy on the wear of military earned ribbons (versus medals which can be worn on civilian attire on certain occasions) on civilian attire is basically to protect the AF from wear getting out of control; but also affects other, what I would term "patriot" wear uniforms such as VFW & American Legion Uniforms, that cannot wear ribbons or occupational devices.
The Air Force style uniform worn by CAP members is a
Civil Air Patrol Uniform, and I would think that we would want a
consistent presentation on ALL our CAP uniforms. It's not clear to me why members would be allowed to wear any armed forces occupational designations insignia (e.g. pilot, navigator, security police, information management, nurse, doctor, etc.) on their CAP AF type uniforms, since it likely has no bearing on their current CAP duties. In my opinion, they should be wearing ONLY the appropriate CIVIL AIR PATROL occupational badge/insignia. IMHO this avoids confusion to the already confused public on the CAP military uniform wear.
Regarding the wear of military earned ribbons, this is more of a Department of Defense wide consideration of a standard policy to allow "authorized" groups wearing "appropriate" patriotic organizational uniforms to wear earned ribbons (as opposed to medals) since individual military services regulations vary.
Since this involves other patriotic groups organizational uniform wear, it is more than just a CAP issue. Perhaps after the national election, some congressional interest might be in order to address at the DOD level.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:41:03 PM
It's not clear to me why members would be allowed to wear any armed forces occupational designations insignia (e.g. pilot, navigator, security police, information management, nurse, doctor, etc.) on their CAP AF type uniforms, since it likely has no bearing on their current CAP duties.
Because we worked hard to earn them and have a great deal of pride in our accomplishments?
Two of my military awards are due in part (one exclusively) to my CAP service. Why would I NOT wear them?
Quote from: 68w10 on September 23, 2012, 03:18:05 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 23, 2012, 02:41:03 PM
It's not clear to me why members would be allowed to wear any armed forces occupational designations insignia (e.g. pilot, navigator, security police, information management, nurse, doctor, etc.) on their CAP AF type uniforms, since it likely has no bearing on their current CAP duties.
Because we worked hard to earn them and have a great deal of pride in our accomplishments?
Yep and help shows what is brought to the table.
Well it all comes down to how much we are willing to piss off the USAF.
Assuming that the USAF does not want our FAT and FUZZIES in USAF style uniforms.....we could just say......"no this is what we are going to wear" and let the USAF do what it will to us.
Of all the arguments that goes on about this subject...I agree that we need to have ONE uniform with ONE set of rules. If we can't make a compromise with the USAF over a USAF style uniform.....then we should just pick our own and go with it.
I would hate looseing the USAF blues....but would rather have a single uniform.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2012, 05:45:01 PM
Well it all comes down to how much we are willing to piss off the USAF.
That's been the
modus operandi ever since the berry boards...worrying about pissing the USAF off when that worry is largely unfounded.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2012, 05:45:01 PM
.....then we should just pick our own and go with it.
I would hate looseing the USAF blues....but would rather have a single uniform.
And what choices would we be given?
You know bloody good and well it would have to be grey.
So?
I really don't hate the gray....except that there is no "standard shade".
Quote from: lordmonar on September 23, 2012, 06:14:24 PM
So?
I really don't hate the gray....except that there is no "standard shade".
I do, and many others do.
It is colourless and has naught to do with "aviation," civil or military.
There is no standardised headgear, and no true service dress option.
I would like it a lot better if a blue shirt were allowed.
I don't mind the Grey and Whites, but I would love a flight cap. I would also love a Service jacket. Even a simple 3 button, no pocket gray (like the AF coat basically). Set up the same way as the Blues, and there ya go.
d
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 23, 2012, 11:37:59 PM
I don't mind the Grey and Whites, but I would love a flight cap. I would also love a Service jacket. Even a simple 3 button, no pocket gray (like the AF coat basically). Set up the same way as the Blues, and there ya go.
heck a Tweed jacket that you're able to put awards and badges on would be a massive improvement!!!
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 24, 2012, 02:29:44 AM
dQuote from: usafaux2004 on September 23, 2012, 11:37:59 PM
I don't mind the Grey and Whites, but I would love a flight cap. I would also love a Service jacket. Even a simple 3 button, no pocket gray (like the AF coat basically). Set up the same way as the Blues, and there ya go.
heck a Tweed jacket that you're able to put awards and badges on would be a massive improvement!!!
So we could look like the Surgeon General? I have always wondered why (s)he wears a uniform. Is it dependent on what branch of the service (s)he was in when (s)he got tapped? Or is that an actual uniformed branch of the government?
I've thought of something like the old Air America uniforms, and aired it on CT, but even
that got a less-than favourable response from the anti-military types. This boggles me, since the blasted things are
grey!(http://www.air-america.net/images/AAM/uniforms/classa-1.jpg)
(http://www.air-america.net/images/AAM/uniforms/hjack.jpg)
I don't get it. The elephant in the room is that the powers-that-be are skittish about us looking too much like the USAF, but there seems to be no problem with us looking like the old East German Luftstreitkräfte.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/shervin2/Picture24520.jpg)
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 24, 2012, 02:51:20 AM
So we could look like the Surgeon General? I have always wondered why (s)he wears a uniform. Is it dependent on what branch of the service (s)he was in when (s)he got tapped? Or is that an actual uniformed branch of the government?
The Surgeon General heads the U.S. Public Health Service, which, among other things, provides health care for the USCG.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 24, 2012, 02:51:20 AM
So we could look like the Surgeon General? I have always wondered why (s)he wears a uniform. Is it dependent on what branch of the service (s)he was in when (s)he got tapped? Or is that an actual uniformed branch of the government?
There are 7 uniformed services in the US - the Commissioned Corps of the US Public Health Service is one. The Surgeon General is the head of the USPHS. Note on her official portrait, since she has no prior service, she wears only a single ribbon, the Regular Corps Ribbon.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 24, 2012, 02:51:20 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 24, 2012, 02:29:44 AM
dQuote from: usafaux2004 on September 23, 2012, 11:37:59 PM
I don't mind the Grey and Whites, but I would love a flight cap. I would also love a Service jacket. Even a simple 3 button, no pocket gray (like the AF coat basically). Set up the same way as the Blues, and there ya go.
heck a Tweed jacket that you're able to put awards and badges on would be a massive improvement!!!
So we could look like the Surgeon General? I have always wondered why (s)he wears a uniform. Is it dependent on what branch of the service (s)he was in when (s)he got tapped? Or is that an actual uniformed branch of the government?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USPHS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USPHS)
http://usphs.gov/ (http://usphs.gov/)
Both the NOAA and USPHS Commissioned Corps (who the Surgeon General leads) wear uniforms similar to the US Navy/Coast Guard but with distinctive insignia.
Quote from: AirDX on September 24, 2012, 02:59:14 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 24, 2012, 02:51:20 AM
So we could look like the Surgeon General? I have always wondered why (s)he wears a uniform. Is it dependent on what branch of the service (s)he was in when (s)he got tapped? Or is that an actual uniformed branch of the government?
There are 7 uniformed services in the US - the Commissioned Corps of the US Public Health Service is one. The Surgeon General is the head of the USPHS. Note on her official portrait, since she has no prior service, she wears only a single ribbon, the Regular Corps Ribbon.
Im working on a commission with the USPHS now. Im pretty sure hitting the powerball would be easier.
But how do they get their mission done without having an enlisted corps?
Quote from: spacecommand on September 24, 2012, 06:01:00 AM
Both the NOAA and USPHS Commissioned Corps (who the Surgeon General leads) wear uniforms similar to the US Navy/Coast Guard but with distinctive insignia.
And the Navy doesn't make a big deal out of the fact that NOAA and USPHS officers don't always fit the uniform guidelines ... look at former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, for instance. Full beard and quite a bit overweight ... but he was in uniform. The current Surgeon General - who I am certain is a fine physician - wouldn't exactly be a recruiting poster for the Navy either.
Perhaps the "distinctive insignia" - which, unless you're looking for it, isn't all that distinctive - isn't so much an issue to the Navy as it is to the Air Force, vis-a-vis us.
As the kids would put it ... "I'm just sayin'..."
Jack
What about one ribbon that says you earned all the ribbons? We could also do devices for how many times you earned all the ribbons? :P :clap: Couldn't
resist!
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on September 21, 2012, 02:44:51 PM
Allllrighty I think I may jump into the fire for a bit. 8)
Regarding too many 'candy' ribbons. Because of the host of different ways one can get promoted I can see value in the PD ribbons still. (The senior who has come up through the PD program to become Captain vs the CFI who did Lvl 1 and then pinned on Capt.)
I can see the argument to shed the Membership ribbon but I can also see it as a way of saying 'thank you' and a tiny bit of motivation for someone who has just come into the program. If done with a little bit of ceremony and genuine appreciation it can help the newbie feel wanted and valued in the 6 months prior to pinning on 2d Lt. I don't have a problem with that.
Regarding G/Ws vs Blues. It actually cost me more money to set up G/Ws than it did blues and requires more work to put them on in some cases. I'm an AD AF Officer. I need to switch out 2 things on my shirt and 'Poof!' CAP shirt. 1 thing on my flight cap. Service dress is even easier. I also wear the G/Ws sometimes (rarely) and (if you couldn't guess) I am neither fat nor fuzzy. I wear them in the same manner in which I wear my blues. Mx on them is just as heavy. Comfort is the same as blues.
I don't wear any of my military ribbons on any of my CAP uniforms. I'm not a big guy (5'7" 130lbs) so I just don't have room for that many ribbons plus my various wings/badges. The only AF item I regularly wear on my uniform is my missile badge. At NSC we could only wear 2 badges total on G/Ws and Blues (don't know why, but hey) and I was a little bummed but I played around with what 2 to wear and it amused me on some level. The few days I wore G/Ws I was a little bummed I couldn't wear my missile badge, but I got over it. If a young little pup like me can do it, so can our older vets.
As to the whole second-class citizen I think that is a cultural problem and a completely different issue that isn't going to go away no matter what you do with uniforms.
There are vets out there who feel like they should be given 'extra' recognition or that somehow others in CAP don't 'deserve' or haven't 'earned' the right to wear officer insignia to begin with. Frankly, the vast majority of vets never earned the right to wear officer insignia either, so tough. I wear O-4 rank in CAP and have done so while an O-2 and O-3 on AD. My AD Sq/CC (an AD O-5) would tease me sometimes, but he teased me regardless. He had quite a bit of respect for what I did. The better things we do as CAP, the less the people who have AD rank are going to care what we are wearing. They'll know who we are, and what we do, and the majority won't care what we wear. The ones with sticks up their rears may get all bent out of shape, but they tend to get bent out of shape no matter what.
There are those who feel they are treated as a second-class citizen and I tell you that can happen no matter what we wear. Some pilots treat non-pilots like second class citizens. Some ES folks treat non-ES folks that way. Some ground team members do it. Some Cadet Programs members treat anyone who doesn't want to work with cadets for whatever reason that way. Comm guys, commanders, dudes from one wing or specific squadrons. People like to feel they are more equal than others. As long as you get a group of more than about...2 you have a pretty decent chance of someone being treated like a second-class citizen.
To get back closer to the topic: AD does give out 'congratulations you did a decent job at your job and didn't kill anyone' awards. At the end of a duty assignment the vast majority of people give out some kind of service award. It's roughly tied to your rank in many cases.
An enlisted member of the AF, only in the AF, can earn about 55 ribbons
An officer, who has only been in the AF, can earn about 48 ribbons
Also of note: There is an enlisted-only AF NCO PME Graduate ribbon.
As to ribbon addition/removal: I may send it up at some point but with regards to the command service ribbon vs the badge. I would like us to dump the command service ribbon and use the basic command badge the way the USAF does. All current commanders O-6 and below wear it above the name plate, all former wear it below. No difference for SQ, Gp, or Wg. This would also provide the benefit amongst the O-6 crowd of identifying who is a current Wing or Region CC vs who was one, vs who was one of those high-up NHQ level positions that garnered O-6 for a bit. It would also be 1 less ribbon, and a fair trade I would say. And mirrors the AD USAF which I think is a good thing.
Now back to your regular squabbles.