I am a new SM and one thing that I thought was weird about the uniforms was the lack of detail or instruction for new members. I took about a month after my membership was complete to get my welcome to CAP packet and even that wasn't the best for telling a new person with no military training how to put together the various uiforms. I am a go getter so I sought out the info myself and look through pictures online, read 39-1 several times, and this forum (actually, no one tod me about this forum). There are no ther SM withou grae in my squadron so I can't just look at their uniforms. So this leads me to the question, is there a beginners guide to CAP uniforms out there? If there isn't I think I will make one for my squadron to use with new SM's int the future. All the pictures in all the publications I have seen, picture higher ranks...well a Lt Col doesn't need the pictures, a new guy does, so why don't they put a SM (WOG) in the picture or diagram?
What I am envisioning would be short but detailed; not detailing every possible uniform with every variant and accessory like 39-1 but something that addresses BDU's, blues, and corp uniform. I think there is also the opportunity to talk not only about uniform measurements like where the nametape goes but but how to prepare and care for the uniform, and how to shine shoes.
if such a resource exists, it would be nice to advertise since I haven't found it yet.
I thought there was a picture describing how to place CAP cutouts on the uniform that came with your SM kit. If not, someone SHOULD have told you what your resources are. CAPM 39-1 is your best friend in this. This should have been brought to your attention from nearly Day One.
Here is a handy guide for you.
What you need:
Blues:
2 metal CAP cutouts
Gray nameplate
AF blue belt with silver buckle and tip
Shade 1505 trousers
Shade 1550 shirt
flight cap with silver officer's braid
silver flight cap device
BDU/BBDU:
2 cloth CAP tabs, white on ultramarine blue
CIVIL AIR PATROL tape, white on ultramarine blue
Name tape, white on ultramarine blue
BDU/BBDU blouse and trousers, matching shade and material
combat/jungle boots, black.
black socks and black T-shirt
AF blue belt with subdued black tip and open face buckle
Where everything goes:
Blues
Metal CAP cutouts go on the collar, one inch up, centered and perpendicular to the front edge of the collar. The flat edge of the C in CAP should be parallel to the front edge of the collar on the left, the flat edge of the P in CAP parallel to the edge of the right collar.
The gray nameplate goes over the right shirt pocket, centered.
The flight cap device goes on the left side of the flight cap, 1 1/2" back from the front edge, centered between the bottom and the braided edge.
BDU/BBDU
the cloth cutouts go the same way as on the blues, with no more than 1/8" of blue surrounding the lettering.
the name tape goes over the right pocket, centered, with the edges tucked under 1". I find it's easier to cut the ends into a triangle after folding them under, about 1/4 inch from the fold.
the CIVIL AIR PATROL tape goes over the left pocket, centered. same as the name tape.
you don't have grade, so you don't sew anything on your hat.
Care and feeding
Blues
The AF shirt should be pressed but not starched. "Military" creases are not authorized. A crease on the shirt sleeves is optional
The trousers should be hemmed to where the front crease "breaks" and the back edge hits the seam between the heel and upper of the shoe.
The belt is fed counter-clockwise through the loops. The silver tip should just protrude from the buckle, but no blue should show. Excess belt should be cut from the buckle side but leave about 1" of belt. You can either tape the loose end or cauterize it to eliminate loose threads. MEASURE IT BEFORE YOU CUT!!!
BDU/BBDU
Boots should be polished but spit-shining is optional. Tuck the excess shoestring inside your boots after tying
Trousers should be bloused over the boots. Do not tuck inside the boot.
Blouse is not tucked in.
You can press the uniform but starching isn't necessary.
I can provide pictures at a later date. I was thinking of doing something like this for our new seniors anyway.
QuoteWhat you need:
Blues:
2 metal CAP cutouts
Gray nameplate
AF blue belt with silver buckle and tip
Shade 1505 trousers
Shade 1550 shirt
flight cap with silver officer's braid
silver flight cap device
1. SMWOG wear flight caps with solid blue braid.
2. I don't think 1505? (USAF tan/khaki uniform?) is available.
Preferably the OP should get shade 1620 trousers to match the current issue trousers and service coat (if they opt to get one in the future). Watch out for the 1625 shade which is also made, but doesn't match the 1620 used on the USAF service jacket (if you opt to get one in the future).
.. which I'd just tell people to worry about Blues later, as buying a flight cap for a potentially short run is kinda lame.
Aviator shirt Corporate Uniform option:
White short sleeve aviator shirt, commonly Van Heusen brand, i.e. http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/secd/40 (http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/secd/40)
Madium grey slacks, plain front. Commonly found at big box stores or other clothing retailers.
Black belt, plain, with buckle. Common business attire belts.
Black shoes or boots. Common dress/casual shoes, plain roper boots, etc.
CAP SM grey plastic name tag
2 silver CAP cutouts.
No hat required.
(please correct me if I missed something)
Quote from: spacecommand on September 04, 2012, 05:03:34 AM
QuoteWhat you need:
Blues:
2 metal CAP cutouts
Gray nameplate
AF blue belt with silver buckle and tip
Shade 1505 trousers
Shade 1550 shirt
flight cap with silver officer's braid
silver flight cap device
1. SMWOG wear flight caps with solid blue braid.
2. I don't think 1505? (USAF tan/khaki uniform?) is available.
Preferably the OP should get shade 1620 trousers to match the current issue trousers and service coat (if they opt to get one in the future). Watch out for the 1625 shade which is also made, but doesn't match the 1620 used on the USAF service jacket (if you opt to get one in the future).
My Lt Col told me all SM Are considered officers and they issued me a cap with the silver braids.
Quote from: Garibaldi date=1346735014
QuoteI thought there was a picture describing how to place CAP cutouts on the uniform that came with your SM kit. If not, someone SHOULD have told you what your resources are. CAPM 39-1 is your best friend in this. This should have been brought to your attention from nearly Day One.
No real instruction given other than corp uniform, I read 39-1 but it was less than my best friend. I am squared away but I want to make it easier for the next guy.
You "Lt Col" is incorrect.
Quote from: umpirecali link=topic=16087.msg289790#msg289790
My Lt Col told me all SM Are considered officers and they issued me a cap with the silver braids.[\unqoute]
Your LtCol is wrong. For the first six months you are not an officer. Now that does not the appropriate customs and courtisies should not be afforded to you, but until you have been pinned to 2ndLt you are not an officer. CAPM39-1 tells you what you wear as far as being a SMWOG.
Quote from: Dad2-4 on September 04, 2012, 06:54:35 AM
Aviator shirt Corporate Uniform option:
White short sleeve aviator shirt, commonly Van Heusen brand, i.e. http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/secd/40 (http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/secd/40)
Madium grey slacks, plain front. Commonly found at big box stores or other clothing retailers.
Black belt, plain, with buckle. Common business attire belts.
Black shoes or boots. Common dress/casual shoes, plain roper boots, etc.
CAP SM grey plastic name tag
2 silver CAP cutouts.
No hat required.
Cutouts are not worn on the whites.
The only item worn on the white aviator shirt shirt for SM without grade is the three lined grey nameplate.
Optional items are:
CAP only ribbons
CAP only wings, badges
AF blue tie
**NO NO items**
Military/Federal etc ribbons/badges/wings etc
CAP Cutouts
CAP blank shoulder slides (seen this before, these are intended for NCOs to have embroidered grade, though I noticed vanguard has started selling Senior member NCO embroidered slides now for Master Sergeant).
CAP regimental tie (when worn without blazer, but technically with blazer you should wear plain white shirt,but in practice people tend to wear their white aviator shirt under the blazer)
Quote from: spacecommand on September 04, 2012, 03:09:46 PM
CAP regimental tie (when worn without blazer, but technically with blazer you should wear plain white shirt,but in practice people tend to wear their white aviator shirt under the blazer)
+1 - another practice we need to disavow.
And we need to just dump the !@#$ striped tie.
I agree, since the blue AF tie can also be worn on the blazer uniform as well.
Quote from: spacecommand on September 04, 2012, 03:22:53 PM
I agree, since the blue AF tie can also be worn on the blazer uniform as well.
Looks better, too. Nothing says "professional" like an out of date striped tie and a pocket protector!
Quote from: spacecommand on September 04, 2012, 03:09:46 PM
The only item worn on the white aviator shirt shirt for SM without grade is the three lined grey nameplate.
Optional items are:
CAP only ribbons
CAP only wings, badges
AF blue tie
And only 2 badges / devices unlike the 4 that can be worn on the blues. More discrimination on the heavy and hairy among us.
Quote from: phirons on September 04, 2012, 03:26:28 PM
Quote from: spacecommand on September 04, 2012, 03:09:46 PM
The only item worn on the white aviator shirt shirt for SM without grade is the three lined grey nameplate.
Optional items are:
CAP only ribbons
CAP only wings, badges
AF blue tie
And only 2 badges / devices unlike the 4 that can be worn on the blues. More discrimination on the heavy and hairy among us.
According to that NUC briefing, this has already changed, though it's never been communicated or published as such.
What a mess.
Quote from: spacecommand on September 04, 2012, 05:03:34 AM
QuoteWhat you need:
Blues:
2 metal CAP cutouts
Gray nameplate
AF blue belt with silver buckle and tip
Shade 1505 trousers
Shade 1550 shirt
flight cap with silver officer's braid
silver flight cap device
1. SMWOG wear flight caps with solid blue braid.
2. I don't think 1505? (USAF tan/khaki uniform?) is available.
Preferably the OP should get shade 1620 trousers to match the current issue trousers and service coat (if they opt to get one in the future). Watch out for the 1625 shade which is also made, but doesn't match the 1620 used on the USAF service jacket (if you opt to get one in the future).
Dagum it. It was late when I wrote that.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 04, 2012, 03:33:42 PM
Quote from: phirons on September 04, 2012, 03:26:28 PM
Quote from: spacecommand on September 04, 2012, 03:09:46 PM
The only item worn on the white aviator shirt shirt for SM without grade is the three lined grey nameplate.
Optional items are:
CAP only ribbons
CAP only wings, badges
AF blue tie
And only 2 badges / devices unlike the 4 that can be worn on the blues. More discrimination on the heavy and hairy among us.
According to that NUC briefing, this has already changed, though it's never been communicated or published as such.
What a mess.
Not communicated or published = not changed
Vandy's Easy Uniform Guide for New Senior Members.
1. Buy golf shirt from Vanguard.
2. Check closet for suitable grey pants. If none found go to local store.
3. Check closet for suitable black shoes. If none found go to local store.
4. Check closet for black belt. If none found go to local store.
5. Check dresser for dark socks. If none found go to local store.
6. Get dressed.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 04, 2012, 10:32:21 PM
Vandy's Easy Uniform Guide for New Senior Members.
1. Buy golf shirt from Vanguard.
2. Check closet for suitable grey pants. If none found go to local store.
3. Check closet for suitable black shoes. If none found go to local store.
4. Check closet for black belt. If none found go to local store.
5. Check dresser for dark socks. If none found go to local store.
6. Get dressed.
You can probably just go to the local store once if you check them all beforehand. ;)
But seriously, the golf shirt is probably the only one that you really need until you're officially officer. After that, getting what you need is far simpler(Ahem, the mentioned silver braid v blue braid flight cap) than at this point in time. >:D
I bought a polo (with screened logo), already had appropriate grey pants. Had black shoes, but bought a new pair to start off on the right foot. A new belt would be good, all of mine are well worn.
I'm waiting for the dust to settle, probably shortly after the first 6 months, to do much more. I ordered an aviator shirt, but I don't know how often I'll wear it.
I'm kind of behind the 8 ball, since There's a region conference this weekend, and I don't think the polo combo covers many bases. I've got a wing conference next month, so hopefully I'll have a better idea what I need to not look like a hoser.
Does the blazer uniform require changing buttons on the blazer, or is that just for the service coat?
No - you would normally wear just the buttons that come on the coat, same with the USAF-Style service coat, you don't change those buttons, either - you wear the standard USAF Hap Arnold buttons.
As to your upcoming conferences, civilian business attire is normally just as acceptable
While we're talking about distinctive uniforms, I hear a lot of references to "fat and fuzzy" or "heavy and hairy". I'm not hairy, but I'm a little heavy. I'm working on that, because I think it makes sense to be fit for duty. But even while fat, anyone can avoid fuzzy. Whats the rationale for relaxed grooming standards? Isn't it important to the missions to carry ourselves as professionally as possible?
That's interesting about the buttons, why does Vanguard carry such a selection? Did anyone like the smurf suit flight suit? How about the ultramarine light weight jacket? Is it nasty, or does anyone wear them? Are items still for sale by Vanguard all still regulation?
Quote from: BigShu on September 05, 2012, 02:21:37 AM
Are items still for sale by Vanguard all still regulation?
NO. They sell a bunch of stuff that isn't authorized.
Quote from: BigShu on September 05, 2012, 02:17:56 AM
While we're talking about distinctive uniforms, I hear a lot of references to "fat and fuzzy" or "heavy and hairy". I'm not hairy, but I'm a little heavy. I'm working on that, because I think it makes sense to be fit for duty. But even while fat, anyone can avoid fuzzy. Whats the rationale for relaxed grooming standards? Isn't it important to the missions to carry ourselves as professionally as possible?
Some people can have a full beard and look professional but be out of grooming standards. I don't think hairy=messy (my dad had full beard for 35 years and is an executive in his company), it's just a personal preference that carries with it the inability to wear a military style uniform.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on September 05, 2012, 02:23:34 AM
Quote from: BigShu on September 05, 2012, 02:21:37 AM
Are items still for sale by Vanguard all still regulation?
NO. They sell a bunch of stuff that isn't authorized.
Lighten up, Francis!
At some indeterminate time in the past, the blazer available from The Bookstore/CAP Mart had CAP buttons on it, and the buttons were available for use on other blazers. When I get my new blazer, I'm considering changing the buttons.
Vanguard doesn't make the rues, they just sell stuff. Much of this stuff was just turned over from the previous seller, likely without much explanation. It's in the inventory; they sell it.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 04, 2012, 10:32:21 PM
Vandy's Easy Uniform Guide for New Senior Members.
1. Buy golf shirt from Vanguard.
2. Check closet for suitable grey pants. If none found go to local store.
3. Check closet for suitable black shoes. If none found go to local store.
4. Check closet for black belt. If none found go to local store.
5. Check dresser for dark socks. If none found go to local store.
6. Get dressed.
Except members are supposed to equip themselves with the basic minimum CAP uniform (either AF style or corporate). On the corporate end, the basic minimum CAP uniform is the short sleeve white aviator shirt with nametag (for senior members without grade) and grey trousers and black belt. Contrary to some popular belief, the golf shirt is not the basic minimum CAP uniform.
This combination isn't too difficult to get, and the nametag can be used on the light sleeve blues in the future.
The cost isn't that much different than getting a golf shirt or embroidered golf shirt.
Also, the white aviator shirt makes for a bit more professional look especially when attending squadron awards/promotions, group/wing/national level courses. I've been to many courses SLS, CLC, and other Wing related functions, and the wear of the golf shirt tends to be discouraged (though not specifically prohibited), and predominately at Conferences (at least from the ones I've been to) you will see either white aviator shirt, blazer, or blues as the main uniform worn by many seniors at conferences.
Not to say there aren't folks with polos at Wing/Region conferences (your wing conference could be completely different from the ones I've been to), they are just fewer in number compared to white or blues at the wing and national ones I've been to.
If you are attending the Wing Conference and there's an award luncheon going on, a nice civilian suit works out better than a golf shirt if you don't have the blazer uniform or white aviator uniform yet. If there's a dinner banquet, a nice civilian suit or blazer combo works better than the white aviator shirt by itself and much better than the polo in my opinion.
Our conference (CAWG) has a UoD, and golf shirts are generally not permitted for most of the functions.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 04, 2012, 10:32:21 PM
Vandy's Easy Uniform Guide for New Senior Members.
1. Buy golf shirt from Vanguard.
2. Check closet for suitable grey pants. If none found go to local store.
3. Check closet for suitable black shoes. If none found go to local store.
4. Check closet for black belt. If none found go to local store.
5. Check dresser for dark socks. If none found go to local store.
6. Get dressed.
+1
Every Squadron is different. If it is a Senior Squadron and everyone wears a polo just go with the polo until you have been in a few years.
When I first joined my unit, many folks just wore the golf shirt because they assumed or was told by someone before that it was the basic minimal uniform required (again it is not), "just go buy the golf shirt" was common when asked about uniforms. Courses like SLS, CLC, Wing conferences or even local promotions and awards night would pop up and they would say "all I got is the golf shirt" and scramble to get a white aviator shirt combo. Things are a bit different these days. For me, I virtually never wear the golf shirt and when I am not in one of the AF style uniforms I will wear white and grays to meetings.
To me the operative phrase in this discussion is "new member". In my mind the most important things that need to be done with new members are
1. Not to discourage them
2. Make them comfortable and feel like they fit in.
Expecting a new member to buy more expensive uniform variants can discourage.
Buying and wearing the same uniform that the majority of members wear to the meetings makes them feel comfortable and that they fit in. At the two squadrons I have been members of the golf shirt has been the de facto uniform at regular meetings, exercises and flying. Why expect a new member to buy something else instead?
Besides, most new members do not attend many if any functions that require anything more than the golf shirt in the first several months or year of their CAP existence.
I attended SLS in CA. Attendees were wearing the golf shirt, white aviator, BDUs and blues. There was more or less an equal mix and I recall the golf shirt being in the middle range of the number of uniforms, not the majority nor the minority. I wore the golf shirt and felt fine.
I attended CLC in AR. Attendees were wearing the golf shirt, white aviator, BDUs but no blues. Golf shirts were predominant. I wore the golf shirt and felt fine.
I attended the CAWG conference. At the seminars / classes, attendees were wearing the golf shirt, white aviator, BDUs and blues. There was more or less an equal mix though I recall the golf shirt being the average. I wore the golf shirt and felt fine. At the banquet, attendees wore dress blues, blazers, regular blues, civilian suits and there were a few white aviator shirts. I wore the aviator as that is my 39-1 basic uniform that some here like to harp about. Were the few of us in that uniform a bit conspicuous? Perhaps, but who cares.
I have now been back in CAP as a senior member for a little over three years and that single wing conference would have been the only occasion that I might have been better off with one of the other dressier uniforms. Sorry but it is not worth the extra money.
Now I realize that some folks like to dress up and look spiffy in their blues with all the ribbons, badges and other shiny trimmings and if you want to do that, great. But for day to day operations and activities, it makes no sense. This is especially true for new members.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 05, 2012, 02:53:59 PM
Buying and wearing the same uniform that the majority of members wear to the meetings makes them feel comfortable and that they fit in. At the two squadrons I have been members of the golf shirt has been the de facto uniform at regular meetings, exercises and flying. Why expect a new member to buy something else instead?
Because the regulation requires a minimum of the short sleeve blues or aviator whites.
Any commander that does not make this clear to new members is doing that new member a disservice.
Not to mention we have established quite a few times that the aviator whites can be just as cheap if not cheaper than the polo, so it is not a price issue.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 05, 2012, 02:53:59 PM
Expecting a new member to buy more expensive uniform variants can discourage.
It can, but doesn't have too. All it takes is during the "interview" process when costs come up (it always has in my 8 years but YMMV) is mentioning the costs of the uniform that they are required to equip themselves with. A little forethought can, and usually does save that discouragement.
Encouraging a new member to buy a non-mandatory uniform then a mandatory uniform is a whole lot more discouraging by increasing the costs unnecessarily, IMHO.
Quote from: BigShu on September 05, 2012, 02:17:56 AM
While we're talking about distinctive uniforms, I hear a lot of references to "fat and fuzzy" or "heavy and hairy". I'm not hairy, but I'm a little heavy. I'm working on that, because I think it makes sense to be fit for duty. But even while fat, anyone can avoid fuzzy. Whats the rationale for relaxed grooming standards? Isn't it important to the missions to carry ourselves as professionally as possible?
Some of the smartest and most professional people I know in my day job are male and have heavy beards or even pony-tails.
Do not mistake professional for shaven. People do it regularly to one person I know, and I swear he keeps the beard just to find out who's on the left side of the bell curve when they meet him.
If he were even slightly interested in Aviation, it would be fun to have him join CAP and watch him intellectually body-slam a few folks who're hung up on shaven faces.
We aren't wearing pressure-breathing O2 masks in our Cessnas.
US military history is chock full of great men with beards and long bushy mustaches. The no facial hair for the military is a modern concept partially brought on by the use of gas masks as well as a mistaken belief that having everyone look the same was a good thing and added to professionalism. That of course is quite a silly concept. Of course, they now allow military members who claim certain religious beliefs such as Sikh to have beards but a normal person is not allowed to. That sort of discrimination goes against everything the US and the US military stand for.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 05, 2012, 07:45:51 PM
US military history is chock full of great men with beards and long bushy mustaches. The no facial hair for the military is a modern concept partially brought on by the use of gas masks as well as a mistaken belief that having everyone look the same was a good thing and added to professionalism. That of course is quite a silly concept. Of course, they now allow military members who claim certain religious beliefs such as Sikh to have beards but a normal person is not allowed to. That sort of discrimination goes against everything the US and the US military stand for.
They allow women to have long hair, painted nails, and earrings.
Seems to me it makes more sense to allow a beard based on religion than it does to allow the above based on fashion.
YMMV but I see it as a non-issue.
QuoteOf course, they now allow military members who claim certain religious beliefs such as Sikh to have beards but a normal person is not allowed to. That sort of discrimination goes against everything the US and the US military stand for.
So being a Sikh or for that matter sporting a beard makes one "abnormal?"
Be careful when you type.
Sikhs are as normal as people that believe in God and Jesus. And people that believe in Allah, and Yehova. They are as normal even as those that do not believe in anything!
Flyer
Quote from: flyer333555 on September 05, 2012, 08:31:34 PM
QuoteOf course, they now allow military members who claim certain religious beliefs such as Sikh to have beards but a normal person is not allowed to. That sort of discrimination goes against everything the US and the US military stand for.
So being a Sikh or for that matter sporting a beard makes one "abnormal?"
Be careful when you type.
Sikhs are as normal as people that believe in God and Jesus. And people that believe in Allah, and Yehova. They are as normal even as those that do not believe in anything!
Flyer
Whoa there, let's not jump to conclusions.
I think he was commenting on the fact that the rules are different for one group, based on religious belief, not commenting on the "normality" of that specific belief. It may have been inartfully phrased, but I wouldn't impart sinister motives to the poster based just on what he said.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 05, 2012, 07:45:51 PM
US military history is chock full of great men with beards and long bushy mustaches. The no facial hair for the military is a modern concept partially brought on by the use of gas masks as well as a mistaken belief that having everyone look the same was a good thing and added to professionalism. That of course is quite a silly concept. Of course, they now allow military members who claim certain religious beliefs such as Sikh to have beards but a normal person is not allowed to. That sort of discrimination goes against everything the US and the US military stand for.
I'm speaking primarily from a Navy PoV, but there were two reasons for banning them in 1985: 1) safety issues - there were too many instances where a beard would impair effective functioning of safety equipment (primarily breathing gear), and 2) appearance issues - there were too many 20-something guys growing "beards" that were nothing but three or four randomly scattered patches of hair that presented an unacceptable appearance. Rather than mess with the "cans" and "can'ts", they got rid of beards altogether.
I had a beard for about half of my time in the Navy, and it was always well kept and within regs.
It a matter of practicality. There is no room for beards in the modern military. Those folks who are permitted to wear them have limited assignment opportunities.
At least we have uniforms for members who can't/won't meet height and weight or grooming standards to wear the AF style uniform. The US military was not the only military to adopt shaving. And that has more to do with hygene and sanitary reasons than anything else.
Quote from: abdsp51 on September 05, 2012, 11:32:37 PM
At least we have uniforms for members who can't/won't meet height and weight or grooming standards to wear the AF style uniform. The US military was not the only military to adopt shaving. And that has more to do with hygene and sanitary reasons than anything else.
I agree with the idea of distinctive uniforms, in addition to the AF style. I read a lot of posts from people that it's confusing and splinters the organization. My company started off with a clean shaven policy because we were required to be trained in the use of, and able to don immediately, SCBA's for both escape and rescue in haz atmospheres. It became clear that too much trust was being placed in the training and equipment industry wide, and we reduced the requirement to a handful of specialties. Now, I work with a bunch of guys who sport beards, and truth be told, a few of them look better with the beard. I'm not equating beards with messy appearance, I'm just questioning the distinction between our parent service and our organization's grooming standards.
We had a discussion in another thread about the requirement for the National Commander to be at level 5, and have a bachelor's degree. The argument for it is that it shows the Air Force that we feel our leader needs the same background as Air Force leaders do. And will be accepted more readily as a peer. If we can say that a college education is needed to get to the top in CAP, why is something much easier: attaining the grooming standard, blown off as no big deal?
Lice/other parasites in the field I bet were a bigger consideration than trench/gas mask warfare for most services.
The only way ive seen people able to not shave in the military are:
No Shave Chit
Religion
or certain people in Clandestine Operations.
Did I miss any?
Quote from: denverpilot on September 05, 2012, 07:11:51 PM
Quote from: BigShu on September 05, 2012, 02:17:56 AM
While we're talking about distinctive uniforms, I hear a lot of references to "fat and fuzzy" or "heavy and hairy". I'm not hairy, but I'm a little heavy. I'm working on that, because I think it makes sense to be fit for duty. But even while fat, anyone can avoid fuzzy. Whats the rationale for relaxed grooming standards? Isn't it important to the missions to carry ourselves as professionally as possible?
Some of the smartest and most professional people I know in my day job are male and have heavy beards or even pony-tails.
Do not mistake professional for shaven. People do it regularly to one person I know, and I swear he keeps the beard just to find out who's on the left side of the bell curve when they meet him.
If he were even slightly interested in Aviation, it would be fun to have him join CAP and watch him intellectually body-slam a few folks who're hung up on shaven faces.
We all anecdotally "know a guy" for whatever point we want to make. That's not the mean or the curve. I know lots of people too - by far the majority of those in the business world that are customer-facing adhere to the generalized grooms of society, and those who choose to be "different', are not
customer-facing, or are in the tech sector where grooming and dress are less of a concern, usually again because they don't get into the light of day much.
The fact of the matter is that in American society, beards and ponytails are not considered the social norm, and those who wear them (barring the guy who claims he "can't shave") do so to make a statement - usually about how "individual they are".
CAP is about uniformity, conformity, and sacrificing some of your individuality to be assimilated into something larger then yourself for the purposes of accomplishing a mission, not proving how wrong the "man" is about your grooming.
When it comes to the Van Heusen Shirts. There are 3 different short sleeve styles the Aviator, Commander, and the Pilot what are the differences. Thank you :) also, just for some advise how do i find out what size I am? If i get size 18, the shirt fits wel, but the neck is too small, if i get and 18.5 or an 19, ive noticed the shirt swallows me whole. I have an big neck, always hated it when i was issued uniforms.
Quote from: Devil Doc on September 06, 2012, 03:30:24 AM
When it comes to the Van Heusen Shirts. There are 3 different short sleeve styles the Aviator, Commander, and the Pilot what are the differences. Thank you :) also, just for some advise how do i find out what size I am? If i get size 18, the shirt fits wel, but the neck is too small, if i get and 18.5 or an 19, ive noticed the shirt swallows me whole. I have an big neck, always hated it when i was issued uniforms.
On the commander, you have fake pocket flaps with open top pockets. On the aviator, you have real flap pockets. On the pilot, you have real flap pockets and eyelets for wings. Minor differences in fabric too.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2012, 03:18:26 AM
We all anecdotally "know a guy" for whatever point we want to make. That's not the mean or the curve. I know lots of people too - by far the majority of those in the business world that are customer-facing adhere to the generalized grooms of society, and those who choose to be "different', are not
customer-facing, or are in the tech sector where grooming and dress are less of a concern, usually again because they don't get into the light of day much.
Stereotypes and closing in on discrimination.
The person I know is a double PhD and very customer-facing. Another is a middle manager.
Neither of the above wears their facial or head hair in an unkempt or wild fashion. Groomed and trimmed.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2012, 03:18:26 AM
CAP is about uniformity, conformity, and sacrificing some of your individuality to be assimilated into something larger then yourself for the purposes of accomplishing a mission, not proving how wrong the "man" is about your grooming.
Interesting that you place uniformity, conformity, and sacrifice *before* accomplishing the mission in that sentence. I assume that's not the impression of the priorities you meant to convey. ;)
Norms change. Everyone used to go to work in suits. I haven't had a requirement of wearing a tie, even in front of customers, since 1991. The closets in my house built in 1968 are small because the working guy went to work in a suit and maybe had five of them. Mrs. had a similar number of dresses.
Khakis and a button down shirt are as fancy as it gets at my workplaces. And that's "people are visiting we want to impress in fake and silly ways" days.
Even my house of worship has very few numbers of people wearing ties. Button down shirts are a little more popular, but the building sits on a border of two neighborhoods, one of which is chock full of $2-$5M houses. Most folks in that neighborhood work in Finance, and therefore will probably be the last to give up on "impressing" customers with clothes that make them look like they're rich. A different kind of "bling" so to speak, compared to poor neighborhoods.
Customers want results, they don't care what we wear in my real "professional" life.
In the summer, my company drops down to shorts and t-shirts and encourages people to go outside and walk, etc. Their medical costs are skyrocketing and getting office workers moving is far more useful to them than pretending fancy clothes mean anything.
Folks are treated as adults and will bring in a change of clothes if they have a customer meeting, which means putting on khakis and a polo.
CAP uniforms and conformity probably have more value these days in covering up who's loaded and who's living on meager means, and serve more to make folks feel equals in that, than anything.
No harm in that. Although its usually pretty obvious anyway. The guy with a $1000 watch poking out from under his blazer uniform is obvious. ;)
Secondarily they provide a way for the public to identify us when we might have a reason to work in public.
But as untold numbers of threads here have pointed out, the myriad of authorized uniforms actually works against that. I shouldn't even bring it up. Again.
And so many folks wear even a polo so badly (unwashed, wrinkled, lunch on it, enough dandruff that everyone knows the shower is a foreign place to them) that we still have to hide them behind the PIOs no matter how useful they are to a mission. ;) ;) ;)
Self-respect shows, no matter what uniform or clothes someone has on, or how long their hair is. That's the important part. Unwashed, unkempt, generally a mess, just seems to follow some folks around no matter what uniform an organization puts them in.
Since CAP allows for the participation of people with "non-standard" ideas about grooming, then it's nowhere near "discrimination", but stereotyping,
yep, spot on and I was right. A Ph.d with a ponytail and a feeling of superiority? I'm sure we're all shocked.
Quote from: denverpilot on September 06, 2012, 05:16:06 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2012, 03:18:26 AM
CAP is about uniformity, conformity, and sacrificing some of your individuality to be assimilated into something larger then yourself for the purposes of accomplishing a mission, not proving how wrong the "man" is about your grooming.
Interesting that you place uniformity, conformity, and sacrifice *before* accomplishing the mission in that sentence. Unwashed, unkempt, generally a mess, just seems to follow some folks around no matter what uniform an organization puts them in.
More interesting that you think they can be separated. Uniformity of appearance and training is a cornerstone of the cadet program and emergency services. Conformity is a major expectation of the entire program, and sacrifice of individuality is the hallmark of a team player, and key to those
who have had success in CAP.
You say that what you wear doesn't matter, then you say that people bring a change of clothes for meetings. Why is the meeting different?
And the age old arguement of performance vs appearance rears it's ugly head again. We have two different styles for people, who choose to meet h/w and grooming standards and those who choose not to or can't. End of the day pick one wear it properly and press on. Options are there across the board and if you choose to not meet h/w or want to abide by grooming to wear the AF style uniform you have no room to complain.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2012, 05:34:30 AM
You say that what you wear doesn't matter, then you say that people bring a change of clothes for meetings. Why is the meeting different?
Caution against possible misguided stereotypes of the outsiders they're meeting with, mostly.
After the first meeting, if the customer is noted not to have these stereotypes from the left side of the bell curve, future meetings will probably take place in whatever clothes they happen to be in. Once they know the person knows how to solve their business problem.
Two employers ago, family pets such as well-trained dogs were welcome. That place was 70 hour work weeks, and getting some "life balance" was nearly impossible. Everyone had bicycles, dogs, toys, whatever they needed at their desks to alleviate their personal stress.
I'm not arguing against CAP using conformity as a tool, I'm just saying uniforms and what not are often not the social norm anymore, at all. I spend more time playing dress-up for CAP than any other organization I belong to or work for, today.
Thus, Corporate uniforms for me. The folks that earned the right to wear the military stuff, Inhave too much respect for to jack it up. Polo 90% of the time. White aviator in front of a classroom. If I even have time to go change between work and meeting.
White aviator requires some care and prep, and I won't put it on looking wrinkled and shabby. Polo can hang in the back of the SUV and be thrown on in the parking garage at work if I already have the gray pants, shoes, and belt on.
Days when I do that, I get ribbed by co-workers, "You have an interview at lunch?". Seriously. Because I wore gray wool/polyester Dockers.
They get a serious laugh out of the White Aviator with all the gadgets on it.
Quote from: denverpilot on September 06, 2012, 07:04:31 PMTwo employers ago, family pets such as well-trained dogs were welcome. That place was 70 hour work weeks, and getting some "life balance" was nearly impossible. Everyone had bicycles, dogs, toys, whatever they needed at their desks to alleviate their personal stress.
Quote from: denverpilot on September 06, 2012, 07:04:31 PM
I'm not arguing against CAP using conformity as a tool, I'm just saying uniforms and what not are often not the social norm anymore, at all. I spend more time playing dress-up for CAP than any other organization I belong to or work for, today.
You might, but your work environment is not typical by a long shot. Ride a commuter train in a major city and you will see that at a minimum collared shirts and dockers are the expectation. You work in the tech sector, pretty deep into it, and your experience isn't typical for the average office environment. It
is typical for the .dot commers who believe they can "make their own rules", and while things are going well, they can. Zuckerberg got all kinds of grief for showing up to investor meetings in a hoodie, buy hey "He's The Zuck, right?"
I spent a lot of time selling equipment for $.30 on the dollar because of people who were "the smartest in the room" and felt the normal rules didn't apply, until they did.
In CAP, the normal rules apply.
Quote from: tsrup on September 05, 2012, 03:17:48 PM
Because the regulation requires a minimum of the short sleeve blues or aviator whites.
Any commander that does not make this clear to new members is doing that new member a disservice.
Not to mention we have established quite a few times that the aviator whites can be just as cheap if not cheaper than the polo, so it is not a price issue.
What's really happening is the regulation is doing us a disservice. The "basic uniform" is good for an office environment, and that's about it. How many of us perform our CAP duties in an office? We are in hangars, outside with cadets, in airplanes, etc. I wear the blue golf shirt exclusively. I bought the white aviator, and the nameplate and badges to go with it, a year ago, and I have worn it exactly once. I'm glad I have it at the ready in case I need to go to a meeting of some sort that I want to dress up a bit for, but as far as it being the "basic" uniform, it may be by reg, but in reality it's a distant option. The golf shirt and a pair of gray Dickies work pants work just fine for regular meetings, flying, driving around in a van looking for an ELT, and 99% of everything else I do. I'd put together BBDUs for some of the stuff outside in the field, but I don't feel like sewing all the junk on them.
As far as all the jackets, ties, etc - you will never see them on my body.
For the fuzzy issue, neat and Air Force standards are two different things entirely. You can be outside (far outside!) of the Air Force reg and yet be perfectly neat and professional. My hair is usually meets Air Force standards (it should, I get it cut at the BX) but I've had a mustache for over 30 years, and I'll be [darn]ed if I'm going to trim it into that little Hitler brush the Air Force allows.
So...it's ok for the cadets to have to wear their blues, but somehow "inappropropriate" for the seniors to do it?
The adult leadership should be in the exact same uniform as the cadets, otherwise you wind up with the credibility gap
that exists today.
Quote from: AirDX on September 06, 2012, 09:02:35 PM
Quote from: tsrup on September 05, 2012, 03:17:48 PM
Because the regulation requires a minimum of the short sleeve blues or aviator whites.
Any commander that does not make this clear to new members is doing that new member a disservice.
Not to mention we have established quite a few times that the aviator whites can be just as cheap if not cheaper than the polo, so it is not a price issue.
What's really happening is the regulation is doing us a disservice. The "basic uniform" is good for an office environment, and that's about it. How many of us perform our CAP duties in an office? We are in hangars, outside with cadets, in airplanes, etc. I wear the blue golf shirt exclusively. I bought the white aviator, and the nameplate and badges to go with it, a year ago, and I have worn it exactly once. I'm glad I have it at the ready in case I need to go to a meeting of some sort that I want to dress up a bit for, but as far as it being the "basic" uniform, it may be by reg, but in reality it's a distant option. The golf shirt and a pair of gray Dickies work pants work just fine for regular meetings, flying, driving around in a van looking for an ELT, and 99% of everything else I do. I'd put together BBDUs for some of the stuff outside in the field, but I don't feel like sewing all the junk on them.
As far as all the jackets, ties, etc - you will never see them on my body.
For the fuzzy issue, neat and Air Force standards are two different things entirely. You can be outside (far outside!) of the Air Force reg and yet be perfectly neat and professional. My hair is usually meets Air Force standards (it should, I get it cut at the BX) but I've had a mustache for over 30 years, and I'll be [darn]ed if I'm going to trim it into that little Hitler brush the Air Force allows.
Every activity that you describe is above what's considered basic. The basic uniform is all thats needed to show up to a meeting once a week, and once upon a time it was the only uniform you wore to meetings.
The point is, if you want to be a member of CAP, buy the basic uniform.
You want to do anything else in the program? Then buy the appropriate one.
It's not rocket surgery.
With correct application of the regulation, a SM wouldn't be able to participate in anything above showing up till completing their level one. Which should include owning and correctly wearing the Minimum service uniform.
Quote from: tsrup on September 06, 2012, 09:09:49 PM
Every activity that you describe is above what's considered basic. The basic uniform is all thats needed to show up to a meeting once a week, and once upon a time it was the only uniform you wore to meetings.
The point is, if you want to be a member of CAP, buy the basic uniform.
You want to do anything else in the program? Then buy the appropriate one.
And what I'm saying is the basic uniform doesn't work for most of it. Put your white (or blue) shirt on and go spend the day flying. That dress shirt will be a sorry looking rag by the time you're done.
When the majority of the membership doesn't know what the reg says about the minimum basic uniform... the minimum basic uniform is not appropriate for most activities we do in an active squadron... so even if you do buy it it just stays on a hangar in the closet for years.... then the reg is out of touch with reality, practicality, and necessity, and needs to be changed.
Quote from: AirDX on September 07, 2012, 12:14:11 AM
And what I'm saying is the basic uniform doesn't work for most of it. Put your white (or blue) shirt on and go spend the day flying. That dress shirt will be a sorry looking rag by the time you're done.
When the majority of the membership doesn't know what the reg says about the minimum basic uniform... the minimum basic uniform is not appropriate for most activities we do in an active squadron... so even if you do buy it it just stays on a hangar in the closet for years.... then the reg is out of touch with reality, practicality, and necessity, and needs to be changed.
Forgive me if I don't buy your arguments. Thousands of pilots fly every day in the equivalent to the aviator shirt uniform. And not just the big stuff like CRJs and up. We're talking a lot of the little airplanes whose cockpits are not much larger than a C-182. Somehow they manage to do it without turning their uniform into a 'sorry looking rag'. As to the big stuff, we have people who fly big stuff in suit and tie...and manage not to destroy them either.
Edit - Perfect Example. Flight Instructors at UND wear an Aviator Shirt Uniform and are flying aircraft that are equivalent in size to our own. They manage just fine.As to the other stuff...as long as you aren't rolling around in the dirt/climbing through the woods you can wear blues or G/W through a grassy field and not destroy them. Just don't wear patent-leather or equivalent shoes and you can polish nicks or scuffs out of them.
As to the hangers...are you tearing apart an aircraft every week or something? You can move tables, chairs, all that stuff without destroying a uniform. Just takes a bit of care.
Many, MANY activities cadets do could reasonably be done in blues without risking some horrific damage to them. Even active things like building model rockets, launching them, drill, many GLPs, etc. You might get them a little dirty, but it's not like if they are exposed to dirt they immediately disintegrate.
If it's so hard-core that G/Ws don't cut it, the polo-shirt uniform, which is functionally pretty much equivalent, probably can't really handle it either. You should be wearing BDUs, the Field Uniform, or Utility uniform.
As for formality, the Polo Shirt is formally = to BDUs, Field Uniform, Utilities. It is inappropriate for events where the UOD is G/Ws, or Blues. Truthfully, for classroom training/duties (which the vast majority of SMs prolly should be doing anyway) blues and G/Ws are perfectly functional.
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on September 07, 2012, 12:27:29 AM
As for formality, the Polo Shirt is formally = to BDUs, Field Uniform, Utilities. It is inappropriate for events where the UOD is G/Ws, or Blues. Truthfully, for classroom training/duties (which the vast majority of SMs prolly should be doing anyway) blues and G/Ws are perfectly functional.
As we start football season, I have to throw the yellow beanbag on this.
From CAPM 39-1
| Table 4-8. CAP Distinctive Uniform Equivalents to USAF-Style Uniform |
Line | CAP Distinctive Uniform | USAF-Style Uniform Equal |
1 | Utility Uniform/Field Uniform | Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) |
2 | Blazer Uniform | Service Dress Uniform |
3 | Blazer Semiformal Uniform (without
nameplate) Appropriate civilian attire is
recommended for females.
| Mess Dress (Senior Members), Semiformal
(Cadets) or Civilian Formal Wear |
4 | Aviator Shirt with Epaulets | AF-style light blue shirt |
5 | Knit Shirts | AF-style light blue shirt (unless otherwise specified) |
6 | Blue Flight Suit | Green Flight Suit |
7 | Blue Flight Jacket | Green Flight Jacket |
While "(unless otherwise specified)" gives commanders / directors the leeway to decide otherwise the fallback position is
Polo = AF Blue
Do you really believe the golf shirt is equivalent to the blues?
That's NHQ trying to pacify people who can't be bothered.
What people here believe is entirely irrelevant to the reg. If the regs says golf shirt = AF Style light blue shirt, it does. Your point of view and opinion of the golf shirt is irrelevant. If you specify a particular uniform for a class as I have seen (AF blue shirt or equivalent) you can't complain when member show up in the golf shirt.
And goes back to my original points, if you are going to go by the regulations and listen to the regulations only, the regulations says that the white aviator shirt is the basic minimal corporate uniform (not the polo shirt), so telling a new member that they should just buy and wear the polo shirt is not correct, regardless of what you think about the white aviator shirt.
So if the regulation says white aviator shirt or blues as the basic minimal uniform, then it doesn't matter what you think about the whites (or blues), you got to have one.
The golf shirt has it's perks to a degree but however is not the minimum uniform required for SMs. Here in CA Wg for some things like PD courses it's either blues or grey/white. I will give the polo points for being something simple and easy but hardly proper for some aspects IMHO. One thing I have seen is that cadets and SMs do not dive into the basic regs that they should know.
The real problem still goes back to the wide variety of uniforms and everyone wearing a different one.
The golf shirt really doesn't look that bad when worn right. In fact, I have been to events where every senior member had on the golf shirt uniform and it looked pretty good, because we were uniform.
I honestly don't know Why the Polo uniform exists, it's not a "uniform" uniform. So many different styles can come out of it.
But Yes, if worn right, it can look good. But it doesn't look good when half of the membership has gotten the required u information and half has gone the bare minimum they can, didn't follow regulations, and just get the polo, and the other half is wearing blues or BDUs. It can make the Polo wearers look unprofessional, or it makes the blues and BDU wearers look over dressed.
I have yet to see gray pants on two people that match.
I personally do not understand why CAP equates the polo/golf shirt to anything other than the Air force Informal Uniform. Makes no sense to me when Ma Blue has what is basically an identical uniform why we would equate it to any type of blues combo.
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on September 07, 2012, 03:12:31 PM
I personally do not understand why CAP equates the polo/golf shirt to anything other than the Air force Informal Uniform. Makes no sense to me when Ma Blue has what is basically an identical uniform why we would equate it to any type of blues combo.
Because we are not authorized the Air force Informal Uniform.
The chart is presented to equate CAP corporate uniforms to CAP AF-style uniforms.
That said, there is no universe where the polo combination equals even the short sleeve blues or the aviator whites.
Quote from: tsrup on September 07, 2012, 03:17:32 PM
That said, there is no universe where the polo combination equals even the short sleeve blues or the aviator whites.
You can wish this all you want. As a squadron commander you can say the UOD is either AF Blues or G/W.
If you don't say anything or, as some people do just say UOD is AF Blues and forget to mention an option for those prohibited to wear AF Blues then by our regulations the Polo works. G/W as the basic uniform does not exclude other options listed in 39-1.
So let's say Lt Bag O'Dounuts learns of a SLS 3 hours away. He signs up, schedules a vacation day, and gets a notice that the UOD is AF Blues (no other options listed). Being a good senior member and knowing he can't wear that uniform he looks at the table listed earlier and decides to wear his polo shirt. He drives 3 hours and is refused admittance by the course director and is rightfully mad as heck and isn't going to take it anymore. Now some lucky IG gets a complaint.
Could Lt O'Dounuts have requested clarification? Sure, but he made an honest attempt to comply with the course director's instructions and CAP Regulations.
Could the course director have communicated the information more clearly or handled the situation better? I think so.
Do I agree that the Polo is equal to the AF Blues? No, but that's what the book says. The same book says you can modify this rule, but if you don't the rule stands. So in the default CAP Universe, "the polo combination equals the short sleeve blues or the aviator whites."
^ These situations tend to be self-limiting.
If members want to ignore common sense, or fall back on an interpretation that may be factually correct, but is practically
silly, so be it. Everyone makes mistakes, or is too new to know it's a mistake, but there's plenty more who just willfully
do as they please to the detriment of the organization and themselves.
Once or twice people will be standing in a room with people dressed more formally, show up in photos looking bedraggled, etc.,
and they'll either clarify the next time, or disengage.
Either works.
And of course if the SLS director says 'Minimum Service Uniform' and Lt Bagodonuts wears the polo shirt and is turned away, Lt Bagodonuts is now SOL.
By the way...if Lt Bagodonuts were to file an IG complaint over the 'turned away' scenario, I'm betting it would be referred to the appropriate commander. Worst case the SLS director is likely to get a 'Hey, technically he was correct, so be more clear next time.'
Wow, now I feel like a dope! I thought the polo was a good compromise, and that's the most common apparel at meetings. I should have gotten an aviator shirt on the way first thing. That said, how do we fix the gray pants not matching problem? It's easy with the AF style uniforms, but unless SM's get pointed to a single source for grey slacks, they'll be all over the map. I don't care how carefully you pour over the regs, if it says nothing more than grey pants or slacks, there will never be uniformity.
It is supposed to be "medium gray"
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/946/~/color-of-the-gray-slacks%2Ftrousers (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/946/~/color-of-the-gray-slacks%2Ftrousers)
Shades of gray:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/204/0/filename/Med_gray-chart.htm (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/204/0/filename/Med_gray-chart.htm)
Que the 'Knowledgebase' isnt an official or correct source comments.... ::) ::) 8)
Yes, but if you read the knowledgebase link, it quotes the relevant passages in 39-1 stating "medium gray".
QuoteSee below from CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual 23 Mar 2005
Table 4-2. Men's CAP Blazer Uniform
Trousers Commercial dress trousers of medium gray flannel, tropical worsted, or similar commercial blend, full cut, straight hanging, with or without pleats, with or without cuffs. (No jeans or causal trousers made of cotton or twill fabric.) Front of trouser legs rests on the front of shoe or boot. No bunching at waist or sagging at seat. Trousers must be worn at natural waist.
Table 4-3. Women's CAP Blazer Uniform
Slacks Commercial dress slacks of medium gray flannel, tropical worsted, or similar commercial blend, full cut, straight hanging, with or without pleats, with or without cuffs. (No jeans or casual slacks made with cotton or twill fabric.) Slacks should fit naturally over the hip with no bunching at waist or bagging at seat; bottom front of slack leg rests on the front of shoe or boot with a slight break in the crease.
Skirt Straight or A-line. Commercial medium gray flannel, tropical worsted, or similar commercial blend. Pleated skirts or skirts with slits in the front or side are not authorized. Skirt length will be no shorter than the top of the kneecap nor longer than the bottom of the kneecap. Skirt should hang naturally over the hips with a slight flare.
We should wear kilts with the greys! >:D
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on September 07, 2012, 08:16:57 PM
And of course if the SLS director says 'Minimum Service Uniform' and Lt Bagodonuts wears the polo shirt and is turned away, Lt Bagodonuts is now SOL.
By the way...if Lt Bagodonuts were to file an IG complaint over the 'turned away' scenario, I'm betting it would be referred to the appropriate commander. Worst case the SLS director is likely to get a 'Hey, technically he was correct, so be more clear next time.'
I disagree. MSU is MSU and no other. Had it said AF Blues or equivalent, then the LT would have been correct. You know as well as I do that MSU is only G/W or AF Blues and NO OTHER UNIFORM.
Quote from: AngelWings on September 08, 2012, 05:07:59 PM
We should wear kilts with the greys! >:D
tiger-stripe grey kilts.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 10, 2012, 04:51:17 PM
Quote from: LGM30GMCC on September 07, 2012, 08:16:57 PM
And of course if the SLS director says 'Minimum Service Uniform' and Lt Bagodonuts wears the polo shirt and is turned away, Lt Bagodonuts is now SOL.
By the way...if Lt Bagodonuts were to file an IG complaint over the 'turned away' scenario, I'm betting it would be referred to the appropriate commander. Worst case the SLS director is likely to get a 'Hey, technically he was correct, so be more clear next time.'
I disagree. MSU is MSU and no other. Had it said AF Blues or equivalent, then the LT would have been correct. You know as well as I do that MSU is only G/W or AF Blues and NO OTHER UNIFORM.
Agree - not to mention the fact that no one outside CAPTalk is ever going to use that term for a UOD posting.
I have never seen the UOD specified as the golf shirt. I'd be SOL as I don't own one.
Sort of on-topic...last night my Wing CC, who also sits on the Uniform Board, visited our unit. He was wearing the new tactical pants we've been talking about for the last couple weeks. They look pretty good, although I probably would have chosen a different color than charcoal gray. They are Propper, available from bdu.com. You can wear them with the golf shirt.
Other things he talked about:
ABUs: forget it. Not going to happen for at least another 2-3 years.
Tennis shoes in uniform: No. He didn't mention waivers for anything.
Uniform combinations: He basically said that the profusion of member-combos is going to have to stop. Blues shirts with grey slacks, white aviator shirts with blues slacks or other unauthorized pants, tennis shoes with BDUs...all going to have to be fixed.
Specialty hats for ES: At least in ARWG, no. We have a choice of the new ARWG baseball hat or the regulation BDU/BBDU hat. YMMV in your wing. The argument is that we'd have specialty shirts and hats for everything and he is all about uniformity, which I wholeheartedly agree with.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 12, 2012, 02:43:16 PM
Uniform combinations: He basically said that the profusion of member-combos is going to have to stop. Blues shirts with grey slacks, white aviator shirts with blues slacks or other unauthorized pants, tennis shoes with BDUs...all going to have to be fixed.
No disrespect to the Colonel, or to you, but in all my years of CAP I have never seen anything that egregious; i.e., the mixing of colours.
I think the worst I have seen is a Lt Col wearing the AF blue jacket with the G/W, and a Major wearing metal grade on the AF blue jacket.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone wearing running shoes with a CAP uniform.
That's not to say it doesn't happen...I just haven't seen it.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 12, 2012, 04:11:36 PM
I don't think I've ever seen anyone wearing running shoes with a CAP uniform.
That's not to say it doesn't happen...I just haven't seen it.
We see it occasionally with the BDUs.
It's usually accompanied by a doctor's order.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 12, 2012, 02:43:16 PMSort of on-topic...last night my Wing CC, who also sits on the Uniform Board, visited our unit. He was wearing the new tactical pants we've been talking about for the last couple weeks. They look pretty good, although I probably would have chosen a different color than charcoal gray. They are Propper, available from bdu.com. You can wear them with the golf shirt.
What new pants? Where's the ICL. Where's the revised publication, even better. Until it's published, you've got nothing more than someone possibly doing exactly what you indicated needs to "stop". The mixing of uniform parts, and being of a visibile part of the chain of command, setting a great example too.
Do as I say, not as I do. Don't mind me, we're just testing this for wear.
Just testing you say? put out a note about it. The RM does it like that.
Otherwise you get things like at a recent PCR conference, the Region CC authorized khaki pants with the golf shirt for that event, and suddenly there were a few people wearing that combination at other CAWG events because "it's now authorized", and in person twice when I came across this, I produced the announcement that went on to say in the same context, that it's for the conference only.
"oh"...
Or like the changes they briefed command on at the recent board meeting, that were made last year, but never told anyone else about?
As for the list of example infractions on mixing stuff, not that I'm saying it doesn't happen, but really? Some of those are extremely pushing it, and some sound like CSU usage that was after the deadline, or people are remembering too far back. Either way, comments like that could be construed as "until we see that stop, you'll get nothing new" and then who is the entity that needs to see "that" stop, how do they know it has officially "stopped", and when do they make that determination?
As much so, wouldn't it seem a bit ridiculous to effectively punish an entire organization on the actions of a pittance percentage of it's members, or even those whom it has no control over at all? Look, a wannabee poser in the airport wearing a mixture of uniform parts bought from the thrift store! OMG! That's no, no new uniforms for CAP! Not like that hasn't happened before, or the former. But it's still ridiculous.
As for speciality hats leading to specialty shirts? There is certainly precedent for that. The CAWG Ground Team Uniform ...and I'm darn sure that other Wing's know about it. If the National Guard is called out to participate in an activity, they wear their uniform, they may put reflective vests over it, but they wear it. National has put out that we need to have reflective vests in certain conditions/instances, and that should have been good enough for CAWG too, which ironically, organized a group purchase of reflective vests .. that they're in effect saying you can't use, but you need to buy something else instead.
NHQ needs to do away with that and kill it off, once again, like it was done years ago.
Quote from: a2capt on September 12, 2012, 04:53:30 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 12, 2012, 02:43:16 PMSort of on-topic...last night my Wing CC, who also sits on the Uniform Board, visited our unit. He was wearing the new tactical pants we've been talking about for the last couple weeks. They look pretty good, although I probably would have chosen a different color than charcoal gray. They are Propper, available from bdu.com. You can wear them with the golf shirt.
*snip*
Like I said, this comes from one of the Uniform Board members relaying information to his subordinates. Probably IS an ICL forthcoming.
Why must you destroy an ant farm with an ICBM? Good Lord. If I'd said this information came from Lt. Sniffinthepits yeah, you'd have reason to tear this apart. This came directly from a member of the Uniform Board, not someone who attended the f'ing conference and half-listened while checking his email.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 12, 2012, 06:18:07 PM
Quote from: a2capt on September 12, 2012, 04:53:30 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 12, 2012, 02:43:16 PMSort of on-topic...last night my Wing CC, who also sits on the Uniform Board, visited our unit. He was wearing the new tactical pants we've been talking about for the last couple weeks. They look pretty good, although I probably would have chosen a different color than charcoal gray. They are Propper, available from bdu.com. You can wear them with the golf shirt.
*snip*
Like I said, this comes from one of the Uniform Board members relaying information to his subordinates. Probably IS an ICL forthcoming.
Why must you destroy an ant farm with an ICBM? Good Lord. If I'd said this information came from Lt. Sniffinthepits yeah, you'd have reason to tear this apart. This came directly from a member of the Uniform Board, not someone who attended the f'ing conference and half-listened while checking his email.
Because it is still anecdotal.
It doesn't exist until it's published, regardless of who you hear it from.
Committees do change their minds from time to time, or in some cases, individual committee members still believe that their position is correct despite contrary arguments, and relay their position to their members anyways.
"This will happen" is little more than committee speak for "This is my position".
Regardless, unless its published, it doesn't apply.
Quote from: tsrup on September 12, 2012, 06:24:36 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 12, 2012, 06:18:07 PM
Quote from: a2capt on September 12, 2012, 04:53:30 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 12, 2012, 02:43:16 PMSort of on-topic...last night my Wing CC, who also sits on the Uniform Board, visited our unit. He was wearing the new tactical pants we've been talking about for the last couple weeks. They look pretty good, although I probably would have chosen a different color than charcoal gray. They are Propper, available from bdu.com. You can wear them with the golf shirt.
*snip*
Like I said, this comes from one of the Uniform Board members relaying information to his subordinates. Probably IS an ICL forthcoming.
Why must you destroy an ant farm with an ICBM? Good Lord. If I'd said this information came from Lt. Sniffinthepits yeah, you'd have reason to tear this apart. This came directly from a member of the Uniform Board, not someone who attended the f'ing conference and half-listened while checking his email.
Because it is still anecdotal.
It doesn't exist until it's published, regardless of who you hear it from.
Committees do change their minds from time to time, or in some cases, individual committee members still believe that their position is correct despite contrary arguments, and relay their position to their members anyways.
"This will happen" is little more than committee speak for "This is my position".
Regardless, unless its published, it doesn't apply.
FINE!!!!!
*stomps off to corner to pout*
Quote from: a2capt on September 12, 2012, 04:53:30 PM
As much so, wouldn't it seem a bit ridiculous to effectively punish an entire organization on the actions of a pittance percentage of it's members, or even those whom it has no control over at all?
Which has been the driving force behind CAP uniforms ever since the berry boards were imposed on us...punish the whole for the acts of a few. >:( The "solution?" Make everything grey.
Quote from: a2capt on September 12, 2012, 04:53:30 PM
But it's still ridiculous.
No argument here.
Uh... yup.
Plus having sat through many of those exact movements where <insert commander/vice here> "just came back" from <insert meeting here> and "this is what (we) <talked about/heard/will be coming/is going away> and yes, it either happens, happens differently, never happens or just is never heard from again.
Quote from: a2capt on September 12, 2012, 06:37:43 PM
Uh... yup.
Plus having sat through many of those exact movements where <insert commander/vice here> "just came back" from <insert meeting here> and "this is what (we) <talked about/heard/will be coming/is going away> and yes, it either happens, happens differently, never happens or just is never heard from again.
I have heard so many uniform rumours over the years it's silly. One of the wilder ones was that when the Air Force ditched the McPeak sleeve rings, CAP were going to keep them, except in light blue or (tympani roll!)
grey. Obviously it didn't happen.
I just love these arguments.
1. Spent 20+ years in the Army and got all of the awards, decorations, atta-boys, and other "I be cool" badges that I will ever need.
2. Was a cadet officer, so I got to wear enough ribbons that I had another cadet follow behind me with a pillow with the ones that didn't fit on the jacket.
3. Have a very low numbered GRW.
4. Work in an industry where the "customer" wants to see the fully occupied "I love me" wall whenever they come to visit.
I tell you all of that so that you understand the following:
I WILL NOT WEAR ANOTHER MILITARY STYLE UNIFORM UNLESS I AM AT A FUNERAL FOR A COMRADE - AND THAT WILL BE AN ASU.
For CAP purposes that means a golf shirt or a blazer. My 101 card is more important than a set of blue or white uniforms and speaks far more highly of my use to CAP than my "uniformity".
Don't want to see me in a golf shirt? Don't come to someplace where my IC2 credential gets in the way of your ribbons. Don't ask me to teach at any of your activities if the wearing of the "proper" UOD is more important than the quality of the training. Don't come to any of the free ground schools or ICS-300/400 classes that I teach.
I'm sure there are enough team players out there who won't set ultimatums before teaching a course, etc. Enjoy your polo and your extremes.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:01:35 PM
I'm sure there are enough team players out there who won't set ultimatums before teaching a course, etc. Enjoy your polo and your extremes.
Why thank you, I do.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 05:54:20 PMDon't want to see me in a golf shirt? Don't come to someplace where my IC2 credential gets in the way of your ribbons. Don't ask me to teach at any of your activities if the wearing of the "proper" UOD is more important than the quality of the training. Don't come to any of the free ground schools or ICS-300/400 classes that I teach.
We're all very impressed.
There's also the interesting stance you're taking that somehow tries to make proper uniform wear and good training mutually exclusive. I'm
sure the military academies and training schools will be relieved that they can revert to flip-flops.
BTW - ES is only 1/3 of our stated mission, and in the CP, proper wear of a military-style uniform is one of the instruction and grading points.
Lastly, this attitude of "BTDT, don't care what I wear." Doesn't fly either. No one cares what you did elsewhere, in other services, or last week
as it pertains to this issue. It's 100% irrelevant to CAP that you spent years in uniform elsewhere.
Trung, you just don't get it. To many on here, CAP is all about wearing the uniform and all of its associated bling. The mission and the requisite knowledge and qualifications come second, at best. The more shiny and colorful objects they can pin on their chest, the higher feeling of self-worth and importance they feel. Do not try to take that away from them. They will be crushed.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 14, 2012, 06:11:21 PM
Trung, you just don't get it. To many on here, CAP is all about wearing the uniform and all of its associated bling. The mission and the requisite knowledge and qualifications come second, at best. The more shiny and colorful objects they can pin on their chest, the higher feeling of self-worth and importance they feel. Do not try to take that away from them. They will be crushed.
Ah, but I do get it.
As Jean Larteguy said in the classic book "The Centurians" ...
"I'd like to have two armies: one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, fanfares, staffs, distinguished and doddering generals, and dear little regimental officers who would be deeply concerned over their general's bowel movements or their colonel's piles: an army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.
The other would be the real one, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflaged battle dress, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the army in which I should like to fight."
Guess which one wears blues.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 14, 2012, 06:11:21 PM
Trung, you just don't get it. To many on here, CAP is all about wearing the uniform and all of its associated bling. The mission and the requisite knowledge and qualifications come second, at best. The more shiny and colorful objects they can pin on their chest, the higher feeling of self-worth and importance they feel. Do not try to take that away from them. They will be crushed.
Or you know, wear what is prescribed, and get the job done. I would have no issue showing up at a meeting wearing the Adidas blue wind breaker, dirty work jeans, and sneakers. But that will just lead to others doing the same thing, and eventually no one is going to bother with the uniforms. I'm about 99% convinced that Trung Si Ma is so anti-uniform not because it's a uniform but because he wants to be different and do his own thing. That's fine, but don't accuse everyone else who follows the rules to be all about bling and hardkewl. You have an issue with the uniforms? Great, keep your polo and enjoy what you can in CAP. But don't be surprised when you DON'T get to do the things that require one. It's a choice and you made it.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:14:43 PMGuess which one wears blues.
The one with self respect, pride, and no chip on their shoulder?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:16:04 PM
...Great, keep your polo and enjoy what you can in CAP. But don't be surprised when you DON'T get to do the things that require one. It's a choice and you made it.
And what, exactly, would I not be able to do in CAP that could not be done in either a polo or a blazer?
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 06:17:17 PM
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:14:43 PMGuess which one wears blues.
The one with self respect, pride, and no chip on their shoulder?
I'll take the one that can accomplish the mission.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:20:54 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 06:17:17 PM
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:14:43 PMGuess which one wears blues.
The one with self respect, pride, and no chip on their shoulder?
I'll take the one that can accomplish the mission.
Which mission, which duty? And for the record, their are wings where IC's where blues or whites in recognition of their role as a "manager or managers".
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:19:42 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:16:04 PM
...Great, keep your polo and enjoy what you can in CAP. But don't be surprised when you DON'T get to do the things that require one. It's a choice and you made it.
And what, exactly, would I not be able to do in CAP that could not be done in either a polo or a blazer?
Ground team? Working with cadets (now that you mention the blazer, the G/W would work). Depending on wing, SLS/CLS/etc.
The polo is no good for most of those.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:19:42 PM
And what, exactly, would I not be able to do in CAP that could not be done in either a polo or a blazer?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:22:38 PM
Ground team?
You are in a wing that has enough IC's that they can play on a ground team? Or even get to fly? Not my experience.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:22:38 PM
Working with cadets
Can't work with cadets in a polo? How about an authoritative cite to go with that.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:22:38 PM
...now that you mention the blazer ...
Mentioned the blazer in the original post - selective reading?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:22:38 PM
Depending on wing, SLS/CLS/etc.
Did you fail to see the GRW reference in the first post? If I go to an SLS/CLC/TLC/UCC, I'm teaching. If the course director doesn't want me there in a blazer or a polo, I go do something else that weekend.
The line of speak from some members makes it almost sound like they believe it's shameful that persons in CAP wear the CAP uniform (whites, blues) with associated ribbons, badges.
It borderlines those "wannabe" comments we hear from others sometimes as well.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 06:22:31 PM
Which mission, which duty? And for the record, their are wings where IC's where blues or whites in recognition of their role as a "manager or managers".
Which ones? None of the seven wings that I've been a member of have that requirement.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 05:54:20 PM
I just love these arguments.
1. Spent 20+ years in the Army and got all of the awards, decorations, atta-boys, and other "I be cool" badges that I will ever need.
2. Was a cadet officer, so I got to wear enough ribbons that I had another cadet follow behind me with a pillow with the ones that didn't fit on the jacket.
3. Have a very low numbered GRW.
4. Work in an industry where the "customer" wants to see the fully occupied "I love me" wall whenever they come to visit.
I tell you all of that so that you understand the following:
I WILL NOT WEAR ANOTHER MILITARY STYLE UNIFORM UNLESS I AM AT A FUNERAL FOR A COMRADE - AND THAT WILL BE AN ASU.
For CAP purposes that means a golf shirt or a blazer. My 101 card is more important than a set of blue or white uniforms and speaks far more highly of my use to CAP than my "uniformity".
Don't want to see me in a golf shirt? Don't come to someplace where my IC2 credential gets in the way of your ribbons. Don't ask me to teach at any of your activities if the wearing of the "proper" UOD is more important than the quality of the training. Don't come to any of the free ground schools or ICS-300/400 classes that I teach.
Clear to me you are showing disdain for the G/Ws.
So lets not try to rewrite what you said. The "blazer" is not a uniform, and it's not a very subtle of saying you do not want to wear the G/Ws either.
Quote from: spacecommand on September 14, 2012, 06:33:22 PM
The line of speak from some members makes it almost sound like they believe it's shameful that persons in CAP wear the CAP uniform (whites, blues) with associated ribbons, badges.
It borderlines those "wannabe" comments we hear from others sometimes as well.
Never said YOU couldn't play dress up, just said that I won't.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:37:31 PM
Quote from: spacecommand on September 14, 2012, 06:33:22 PM
The line of speak from some members makes it almost sound like they believe it's shameful that persons in CAP wear the CAP uniform (whites, blues) with associated ribbons, badges.
It borderlines those "wannabe" comments we hear from others sometimes as well.
Never said YOU couldn't play dress up, just said that I won't.
And there is that chip on the shoulder. Wouldn't want to serve anywhere NEAR you.
I can respect someone not wanting to wear anything but a polo, but if you don't have enough respect for other members, then I'd simply avoid and ignore you.
P.S. for someone with so much hatred for CAP uniforms, why is it that almost 29% of your posts are in the uniform section?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:35:21 PM
Clear to me you are showing disdain for the G/Ws.
I didn't mention G/W's at all.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:35:21 PM
The "blazer" is not a uniform
You must have a different copy of CAPM 39-1 than the one posted on the website. That CAPM 39-1 has a paragraph 4-2.a. where the first two words are "Blazer Uniform", can you send me a copy of the one that says that the blazer is not a uniform? I so want to be correct.
I met a senior member once right after I moved here to Arkansas. He was wearing a smurf suit and upon learning he'd just retired from the Air Force, I asked him why he wasn't wearing the AF style uniform. He responded in much the same way as Trung: he was tired of wearing it after 20+ years AD. He said in no uncertain terms that there were other uniform options available for seniors in CAP and he was going to exercise all of them.
I don't hold anything against seniors who choose to wear one of the optional uniforms.
But.
I have spent nearly 20 years in CAP, both as a cadet and as a senior. I have seen so many gross violations of 39-1 that I wanted to scream. I also came up in an environment where people not only took pride in their knowledge but also in their appearance. If two people have the same knowledge base in a subject, I am more likely to listen to someone who takes pride in their appearance. That's just the way I was brought up. In college, I had no use for a Ph.D or even a TA who dressed like a hipster with tattoos all over their neck and arms. I don't care how smart they were, I could not take them seriously. It distracted me and I wasn't able to take them seriously. Wear what you want to wear, but wear it with pride.
I know, most of you have a completely diametrical opinion from me. That's fine. I agree with Trung in principle but not in attitude. That's why we have so many uniform combos. I bling out at meetings and conferences. I don't bling out on missions. I try not to bling out during classes. Since I still fall within h/w and grooming standards I will continue to wear the AF-style uniform. Unless I am specifically told that the UOD is G/W or polo shirt, or I am attending a multi-agency meeting where the uniform would be impractical, I will not wear them. My choice.
Having said all that...don't dare tell me that all my shiny and colorful objects are less important to you than my credentials. I earned them in the course of my CAP life. I am as proud of my ribbon rack and my wings and my badges as I am of the reason I wear them. Find me an AD military man or woman who doesn't wear all the ribbons and badges they've EARNED and I'll show you someone who doesn't take his or her career seriously. I'd find it hard to believe someone who completed Jump School wouldn't wear their parachutist wings. Or the soldier who completed Ranger school who wouldn't wear their Ranger Tab. Or the combat vet who wouldn't wear their CIB. I highly doubt that any of these badges, ribbons, or medals were forced upon them. And they have all the experience in the world to back up their wearing of them.
I think I'd take them a little more seriously than I would you in your polo shirt.
Some folks have missed the point of the thread.
The thread (read the title and reread the first few post if you need to), was a new member wondering what uniform combinations a new member should wear. Posts were made in regards to this. Then someone posted about just getting the golf shirt. The regulations state that all members must have the basic minimal CAP uniform (either blues or whites). This is the basic minimal CAP uniform that there are many who are not aware of because they were told by their leaders when they first join "just buy the golf shirt".
The debate about looking professional, looking casual, which uniform is the best will never end. So no matter what your opinion maybe, whites, golf shirt, or being naked is the best, the fact remains, that is the regulation, so it is a disservice to tell new members "just buy the golf shirt", when regulations say the basic minimal uniform is (whites or blues).
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:40:08 PM
And there is that chip on the shoulder.
It's not a chip, it's a little cloth strip picked up at Fort Benning.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:40:08 PM
I can respect someone not wanting to wear anything but a polo, but if you don't have enough respect for other members, then I'd simply avoid and ignore you.
Did I say that you can't play dress up?
Might this whole thing be that I'm fed up with everyone assuming that not wanting to wear a blue uniform means that your are either "fat" or "fuzzy"?
Quote from: spacecommand on September 14, 2012, 06:45:32 PM
The debate about looking professional, looking casual, which uniform is the best will never end. So no matter what your opinion maybe, whites, golf shirt, or being naked is the best, the fact remains, that is the regulation, so it is a disservice to tell new members "just buy the golf shirt", when regulations say the basic minimal uniform is (whites or blues).
No disagreement.
In accordance with the regulation, there is a blue CAP uniform, with all required insignia, folded up in the back of my closet. It's even tailored to USAF standards (at Maxwell AFB, no less) so that it would look nice if I wanted to wear it.
I'm just not going to wear it.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:40:08 PM
And there is that chip on the shoulder.
It's not a chip, it's a little cloth strip picked up at Fort Benning.
100% irrelevant.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:40:08 PM
I can respect someone not wanting to wear anything but a polo, but if you don't have enough respect for other members, then I'd simply avoid and ignore you.
Did I say that you can't play dress up?
Might this whole thing be that I'm fed up with everyone assuming that not wanting to wear a blue uniform means that your are either "fat" or "fuzzy"?
No, it clearly shows some chip on your shoulder, or other personal frustration, exasperation, or mental gymnastics. Whatever - vault
the neurons anyway you want, that's your right, within a specific lane in CAP.
But the comments and inferences that people who do wear the uniform are some how misguided, "less", or have ulterior motives are inappropriate and insulting at best.
Your 101 card is also 100% irrelevant in this discussion.
For once, I am in complete agreement with Eclipse. Satan called and asked me to bring my ice skates and a chipper.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
It's not a chip, it's a little cloth strip picked up at Fort Benning.
Oh look! Somehow some Army thing is somehow somewhere relevant to CAP!
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
Did I say that you can't play dress up?
You're making my points for me.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
Might this whole thing be that I'm fed up with everyone assuming that not wanting to wear a blue uniform means that your are either "fat" or "fuzzy"?
YOU make this about the Blues. Everyone else is making this about the Polos (and how lacking they are).
For the record, I wear BBDUs and G/Ws, so the fact that you jump on the blues right away just shows that YOU are the one with the problem, not everyone else.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 06:54:21 PM
100% irrelevant.
To you.[/quote]
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 06:54:21 PM
No, it clearly shows some chip on your shoulder, or other personal frustration, exasperation, or mental gymnastics.
You opinion
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 06:54:21 PM
Your 101 card is also 100% irrelevant in this discussion.
You brought up IC's in blues, not I
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 07:03:36 PM
YOU make this about the Blues. Everyone else is making this about the Polos (and how lacking they are).
Reverse side of the argument. If polos are bad, and they are an alternate to blues, than blues must be good.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 07:04:52 PM
To you.
To CAP.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 07:04:52 PM
You opinion
And that of others.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 07:04:52 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 06:54:21 PM
Your 101 card is also 100% irrelevant in this discussion.
You brought up IC's in blues, not I
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 05:54:20 PM
For CAP purposes that means a golf shirt or a blazer. My 101 card is more important than a set of blue or white uniforms and speaks far more highly of my use to CAP than my "uniformity".
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 07:06:24 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 07:03:36 PM
YOU make this about the Blues. Everyone else is making this about the Polos (and how lacking they are).
Reverse side of the argument. If polos are bad, and they are an alternate to blues, than blues must be good.
In what world are Polos an alternative?
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:14:43 PM
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 14, 2012, 06:11:21 PM
Trung, you just don't get it. To many on here, CAP is all about wearing the uniform and all of its associated bling. The mission and the requisite knowledge and qualifications come second, at best. The more shiny and colorful objects they can pin on their chest, the higher feeling of self-worth and importance they feel. Do not try to take that away from them. They will be crushed.
Ah, but I do get it.
As Jean Larteguy said in the classic book "The Centurians" ...
"I'd like to have two armies: one for display, with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, fanfares, staffs, distinguished and doddering generals, and dear little regimental officers who would be deeply concerned over their general's bowel movements or their colonel's piles: an army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country.
The other would be the real one, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflaged battle dress, who would not be put on display but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the army in which I should like to fight."
Guess which one wears blues.
This harkens to an (incorrect) assumption that wearing a uniform properly and being exceptional at the mission are mutually exclusive.
Those that use this argument generally use this idea as a crutch for sloppy and unprofessional appearances.
Oh and the slings about playing dress up are done by people who clearly don't understand the significance of the duties that CAP does. It is not the AF's uniform, it is OUR uniform. Take some pride in the organization and the impact it has in our nation.
If you think all CAP is is a method for people to play dress-up than maybe you need to reevaluate why you commit so much time to the program.
I have no problem with members who wear the polo, but the sweeping insinuations you are making about the people who dont are completely and utterly without merit.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 07:08:18 PM
In what world are Polos an alternative?
Other than when there is a specified UOD, when is it not?
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 07:42:59 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 07:08:18 PM
In what world are Polos an alternative?
Other than when there is a specified UOD, when is it not?
When you're at the golf course!!!
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:40:08 PM
And there is that chip on the shoulder. Wouldn't want to serve anywhere NEAR you.
I can respect someone not wanting to wear anything but a polo, but if you don't have enough respect for other members, then I'd simply avoid and ignore you.
P.S. for someone with so much hatred for CAP uniforms, why is it that almost 29% of your posts are in the uniform section?
As somebody that HAS served with him, you really would, and you are seeing a chip that isn't there. While we disagree on whether he should wear a military style uniform or not, that does not mean he hates the military style uniforms. Which was said numerous times.
Trung, I'll be glad to have you in my foxhole. You still need to fly up for that beer.
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
This harkens to an (incorrect) assumption that wearing a uniform properly and being exceptional at the mission are mutually exclusive.
Your words back to you with a slight change - This harkens to an (incorrect) assumption that wearing a uniform properly and being exceptional at the mission are mutually inclusive.
BTW - who said anything about wearing a uniform properly? To me, this is about the belief that only the "fat and fuzzy" wear corporate uniforms.
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
Oh and the slings about playing dress up are done by people who clearly don't understand the significance of the duties that CAP does.
If the uniform is so important to the duties done by CAP, why do we let our customers tell us not to wear them? (CAPR 60-6, para 2-8)
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
It is not the AF's uniform, it is OUR uniform.
If it is not the AF's uniform, then why does CAPM 39-1, para 1-1 tell us that final approval rests with Headquarters USAF?
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
If you think all CAP is is a method for people to play dress-up than maybe you need to reevaluate why you commit so much time to the program.
The real reasons that members wear any specific one of the multitude of authorized uniforms has nothing to do with the time I spend on the program. Just as my reasons for NOT wearing a USAF uniform should not be of concern to you as long as I correctly wear an authorized uniform while performing my tasks.
While this has been a fun way to waste an afternoon waiting for the ceilings to lift, I must now go grab my golf shirt so that I can go fly some orientation flights.
Bottom line - there are many of us who meet the requirements of Attachments 1 and 2 of CAPM 39-1 wearing polo's, not just the "fat and the fuzzy"
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 14, 2012, 08:00:48 PM
You still need to fly up for that beer.
Working on some dates for that around overseas trips for the Army.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 06:37:31 PM
Never said YOU couldn't play dress up, just said that I won't.
Well, it seems that the U.S Army War College, along with West Point, disagrees with you. As this is one of the quotes that is used in teaching and West Point stresses the reading of "War as I knew it" by Gen. Patton
"It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading."
- General George S. Patton Jr., April 1943I really enjoyed your saying that if the course director does not want you in polo than you will not attend. That's very nice. Forsake those that serve with you and forsake their advancement and training because you just can not be bothered to put on blue pants and a blue shirt for a few hours.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 08:09:35 PM
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
This harkens to an (incorrect) assumption that wearing a uniform properly and being exceptional at the mission are mutually exclusive.
Your words back to you with a slight change - This harkens to an (incorrect) assumption that wearing a uniform properly and being exceptional at the mission are mutually inclusive.
BTW - who said anything about wearing a uniform properly? To me, this is about the belief that only the "fat and fuzzy" wear corporate uniforms.
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
Oh and the slings about playing dress up are done by people who clearly don't understand the significance of the duties that CAP does.
If the uniform is so important to the duties done by CAP, why do we let our customers tell us not to wear them? (CAPR 60-6, para 2-8)
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
It is not the AF's uniform, it is OUR uniform.
If it is not the AF's uniform, then why does CAPM 39-1, para 1-1 tell us that final approval rests with Headquarters USAF?
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 07:38:15 PM
If you think all CAP is is a method for people to play dress-up than maybe you need to reevaluate why you commit so much time to the program.
The real reasons that members wear any specific one of the multitude of authorized uniforms has nothing to do with the time I spend on the program. Just as my reasons for NOT wearing a USAF uniform should not be of concern to you as long as I correctly wear an authorized uniform while performing my tasks.
While this has been a fun way to waste an afternoon waiting for the ceilings to lift, I must now go grab my golf shirt so that I can go fly some orientation flights.
Bottom line - there are many of us who meet the requirements of Attachments 1 and 2 of CAPM 39-1 wearing polo's, not just the "fat and the fuzzy"
I have no problem with why or why not someone wants to wear a polo uniform. It is in-fact, a uniform as prescribed by our manual.
I do take issue with the broad "wannabee" brush that you are using to paint members who chose to wear the blues or G/W combo.
And yes, while the AF-
style (emphasis mine) uniform requires approval by the USAF because it uses AF components, the uniform as a whole is ours. The AF doesn't wear it, CAP does.
So put all the straw men up that you want, the point is the only issues I have with your statements are that you are insinuating that those that choose to wear blues are merely playing "dress-up".
That is an attitude problem, not a uniform one.
Quote from: NCRblues on September 14, 2012, 08:11:34 PM
I really enjoyed your saying that if the course director does not want you in polo than you will not attend. That's very nice. Forsake those that serve with you and forsake their advancement and training because you just can not be bothered to put on blue pants and a blue shirt for a few hours.
All of my local seniors who have at least six months experience in CAP have SLS, and we are running a CLC in a few months to get the ones who need it qualified.
I also think that you've got your argument backwards. Should the course director forsake qualified instructors in authorized uniforms because they don't like a particular uniform? That would be like saying that just because I don't want to wear blues, you have to wear a blazer to attend training instead of that perfectly good, authorized, blue uniform that you choose to wear.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 08:25:10 PM
I also think that you've got your argument backwards. Should the course director forsake qualified instructors in authorized uniforms because they don't like a particular uniform?
Why should the course director, appointed by someone above you in good faith, give up his/her authority to place a UOD? You are not the only instructor who can teach I am sure of that, but you seem to be the only one with heartburn over putting on an AF style uniform.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 08:25:10 PM
I also think that you've got your argument backwards. Should the course director forsake qualified instructors in authorized uniforms because they don't like a particular uniform? That would be like saying that just because I don't want to wear blues, you have to wear a blazer to attend training instead of that perfectly good, authorized, blue uniform that you choose to wear.
I think it's less unreasonable to mandate a uniform for an event that you expect every member to own as prescribed by regulation.
If I make the UOD short sleeve blues or G/W combo, then I know that there will only be two different uniforms present. Not everyone has the polo, not everyone has BDUS/BBDUS, not everyone has the Sage/Blue flight suit.
All members should have at least the SS Blues or G/W combo. That is if they are following the regulation.
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 08:21:44 PM
I do take issue with the broad "wannabee" brush that you are using to paint members who chose to wear the blues or G/W combo.
So put all the straw men up that you want, the point is the only issues I have with your statements are that you are insinuating that those that choose to wear blues are merely playing "dress-up".
That is an attitude problem, not a uniform one.
As a matter of fact, g/w and blues are more "dressy" than a polo shirt. So, yes, those wearing blues, g/w ARE dressing up. That does not mean that you (or anybody else) is being a wannabe. As a member that served with him, you are attributing things to him that are not there.
You are right that it is an attitude problem. It is yours.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 14, 2012, 08:39:10 PM
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 08:21:44 PM
I do take issue with the broad "wannabee" brush that you are using to paint members who chose to wear the blues or G/W combo.
So put all the straw men up that you want, the point is the only issues I have with your statements are that you are insinuating that those that choose to wear blues are merely playing "dress-up".
That is an attitude problem, not a uniform one.
As a matter of fact, g/w and blues are more "dressy" than a polo shirt. So, yes, those wearing blues, g/w ARE dressing up. That does not mean that you (or anybody else) is being a wannabe. As a member that served with him, you are attributing things to him that are not there.
You are right that it is an attitude problem. It is yours.
Disagree.
To insinuate that those that do wear anything other than a polo are "play[ing] dress-up" (his words not mine) is clearly inflammatory and disrespectful.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 08:25:10 PMI also think that you've got your argument backwards. Should the course director forsake qualified instructors in authorized uniforms because they don't like a particular uniform? That would be like saying that just because I don't want to wear blues, you have to wear a blazer to attend training instead of that perfectly good, authorized, blue uniform that you choose to wear.
Perhaps your inability to present the image requested no longer makes you "qualified"...
To the other point, a roomful of service uniforms, in whatever color, says "professional" at a much higher volume then a golf shirt, especially
when you're standing at the front of the room.
Quote from: NCRblues on September 14, 2012, 08:29:28 PM
Why should the course director, appointed by someone above you in good faith, give up his/her authority to place a UOD? You are not the only instructor who can teach I am sure of that, but you seem to be the only one with heartburn over putting on an AF style uniform.
Did not say that the course director could not specify the UOD, nor that I am the only one qualified to teach a specific subject.
I said that IF they wanted ME to teach, then THEY would have to realize that I'm going to do it in an authorized uniform that I wanted to wear. If the CD doesn't want me to wear that uniform, then they won't schedule me to teach for them.
And no, I am not the only one who feels this way.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 08:58:09 PMI said that IF they wanted ME to teach, then THEY would have to realize that I'm going to do it in an authorized uniform that I wanted to wear. If the CD doesn't want me to wear that uniform, then they won't schedule me to teach for them.
Nothing warms my heart like a team player.
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 08:31:09 PM
I think it's less unreasonable to mandate a uniform for an event that you expect every member to own as prescribed by regulation.
To own is required, to wear is optional.
You have to make an individual choice in this matter after acquisition. I've chosen to just say no.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 09:01:06 PM
Nothing warms my heart like a team player.
Glad to be of service.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 08:50:16 PM
To the other point, a roomful of service uniforms, in whatever color, says "professional" at a much higher volume then a golf shirt, especially
when you're standing at the front of the room.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
When did "Service Before Self" get replaced with "I won't, you can't make me?"
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 09:06:08 PM
When did "Service Before Self" get replaced with "I won't, you can't make me?"
Apparently when the polo shirt got introduced.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on September 14, 2012, 06:35:21 PMClear to me you are showing disdain for the G/Ws.
So lets not try to rewrite what you said. The "blazer" is not a uniform, and it's not a very subtle of saying you do not want to wear the G/Ws either.
The blazer
is a uniform, and has been designated as such in the CAPM 39-1 since before I joined CAP. Check out Chapter 4 of the current version.
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 08:48:58 PM
To insinuate that those that do wear anything other than a polo are "play[ing] dress-up" (his words not mine) is clearly inflammatory and disrespectful.
To insinuate that only the fat and the fuzzy wear corporate uniforms is clearly inflammatory and disrespectful.
My comments never started out about the "superiority" of the polo shirt. They are about my desire to no longer wear military style uniforms, even the G/W. But almost everyone here seized upon the polo shirt, disreagarding that I intially mentioned that I wore either that or the blazer.
What is this fixation with the polo shirt as the sign of the coming of the four horsemen?
I own the minimum required uniform, with all of the approriate badges, and ribbons, and accessories - I just choose not to wear it.
Does it limit my participation in CAP - not so far. Could it? Yes, its possible - but highly unlikely.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 08:09:35 PM
While this has been a fun way to waste an afternoon waiting for the ceilings to lift, I must now go grab my golf shirt so that I can go fly some orientation flights.
Dang wx. We're back to IFR.
Quote from: SarDragon on September 14, 2012, 09:08:11 PMThe blazer is a uniform, and has been designated as such in the CAPM 39-1 since before I joined CAP. Check out Chapter 4 of the current version.
Yes, it is, as is the golf shirt.
But to pretend that the blazer=service dress, or the golf shirt=whites or blues in appearance, utility, or bearing, is just silly.
Those people who do are trying to pretend we don't know what those uniforms look like, their evolution, or how they compare side-by-side.
Regs are regs, but common sense and reality have to play into this as well, and leaning on the text regarding equivalences won't endear you
to those who are supposed to be on the same team as you, especially if you ignore intent in the face of the letter. There's always one
goober in every photo who "knew better".
When you're in the ICP, fine, a golf shirt works. When you're training people for those positions, dealing with non-members or the media,
or generally want to look professional, it probably doesn't.
And the "my 101 card trumps all" is probably the silliest, most self-important, condescending thing I've heard on CT in a quite awhile.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2012, 09:24:10 PM
... is probably the silliest, most self-important, condescending thing I've heard on CT in a quite awhile.
Other than the post being quoted.
Your
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 09:13:43 PM
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 08:48:58 PM
To insinuate that those that do wear anything other than a polo are "play[ing] dress-up" (his words not mine) is clearly inflammatory and disrespectful.
To insinuate that only the fat and the fuzzy wear corporate uniforms is clearly inflammatory and disrespectful.
My comments never started out about the "superiority" of the polo shirt. They are about my desire to no longer wear military style uniforms, even the G/W. But almost everyone here seized upon the polo shirt, disreagarding that I intially mentioned that I wore either that or the blazer.
What is this fixation with the polo shirt as the sign of the coming of the four horsemen?
I own the minimum required uniform, with all of the approriate badges, and ribbons, and accessories - I just choose not to wear it.
Does it limit my participation in CAP - not so far. Could it? Yes, its possible - but highly unlikely.
And when it does, you'll go home feeling proud that you stuck it to the man because you refused to wear a military looking uniform. You know, it is all about what you wear and completely not about what you're doing. You'll miss out on many things that require a military looking uniform.
You're a soldier, you've served your country. Why are you letting a piece of cloth be what defines your CAP experience? Why are you not letting YOU define your CAP experience. We've all had to wear clothing we did not want to before. Big whoop, get over it and enjoy CAP for everything.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 09:02:40 PM
You have to make an individual choice in this matter after acquisition. I've chosen to just say no.
I would wonder, then, even with someone who comes from a background of military service as you do (which is noble and honourable), what other CAP regs you might choose to say "no" to.
Quote from: CyBorg on September 14, 2012, 11:12:27 PM
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 09:02:40 PM
You have to make an individual choice in this matter after acquisition. I've chosen to just say no.
I would wonder, then, even with someone who comes from a background of military service as you do (which is noble and honourable), what other CAP regs you might choose to say "no" to.
Please note that he said that he has a complete set of g/w. He just doesn't wear them.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on September 14, 2012, 09:13:43 PM
Quote from: tsrup on September 14, 2012, 08:48:58 PM
To insinuate that those that do wear anything other than a polo are "play[ing] dress-up" (his words not mine) is clearly inflammatory and disrespectful.
To insinuate that only the fat and the fuzzy wear corporate uniforms is clearly inflammatory and disrespectful.
I made no such statement, implied or otherwise.
Quote from: RogueLeader on September 15, 2012, 12:45:29 AM
Please note that he said that he has a complete set of g/w. He just doesn't wear them.
I know that.
However, I would wonder what would happen if he were to attend a class where UOD was not the golf shirt...would he pass or would he go anyway, knowing he is breaking a rule laid down by the director of said activity?
Most of the classes I've attended/taught (I've had SLS and CLC, and taught at a CLC), the UOD was blues or the G/W set and I don't remember any noticeable deviation.
Bottom line... The minimum uniform is and always probably will be short sleeve blues or the corporate equivalent, and that is not the Polo, it is spelled out clearly that it is the g/w combo. It's as simple as that.
DONE
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 15, 2012, 04:19:15 AM
Bottom line... The minimum uniform is and always probably will be short sleeve blues or the corporate equivalent, and that is not the Polo, it is spelled out clearly that it is the g/w combo. It's as simple as that.
DONE
The minimum uniform is the short sleeve blues or the white aviator shirt/grey pants combo.
The Polo combination is an
optional uniform combination.
Ever notice how the biggest uniform trolls won't ever sign their names to their posts?
It amazes me how many on here like operating in total anonymity. That is more typical of the somewhat cowardly behavior that you see on many rant type sites rather than on a site dedicated to an organization such as CAP.
I have no fear to hide my name, or rank, or organization, by any matter, we can all agree on one thing. The CAP manuals and regs needs to be changed and modified, we can agree all on atleat that thing.
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 14, 2012, 06:43:40 PM
.... Find me an AD military man or woman who doesn't wear all the ribbons and badges they've EARNED and I'll show you someone who doesn't take his or her career seriously. I'd find it hard to believe someone who completed Jump School wouldn't wear their parachutist wings. Or the soldier who completed Ranger school who wouldn't wear their Ranger Tab. Or the combat vet who wouldn't wear their CIB. I highly doubt that any of these badges, ribbons, or medals were forced upon them. And they have all the experience in the world to back up their wearing of them.
Surely your "experience" for 20 years in
Civil Air Patrol gives you every right to be making such broad statements about active duty, former active duty, and or retired military personnel career aspirations being linked to military ribbons wear on their military uniform >:( ???
In the AF unless one is wearing the service dress uniform, ribbons are optional. Generally the member will wear at least their highest specialty badge or wings, but could wear more. Generally my observation (in a bit over a 20 year military career) was that senior NCO's, and some former enlisted new officers tended to wear their ribbons with the blue shirt/pants combination and most others didn't wear ribbons. Kind of a mute point now a days since everyone in the AF seems to be running around dressed in ACU's all of the time :(
I agree that anyone wearing any type of CAP uniform should wear it properly. For what I do in CAP the various golf shirts with grey pants seem to work the best for me (but I also have the a one set of G/W and Blue BDU's that could be worn if necessary).
RM
Since my rack changed, my unit changed, and I got a specialty badge, I haven't had the time to change sig block. But I don't go with anonymity, and I'm not trolling, it's just as simple as the minimum uniform is either corporate g/w or short sleeve blues, not the Polo combination. Yes, the Polo is optional, but according to the regs, it's not the minimum uniform. It really is that simple, there is no argument needed, consult the regs, and if you aren't in compliance then please get a set of the minimum uniform.
1st LT KILLION, Robert
SWR-AR-095
GTL, GTM2, EMT, Es Tech, Cadet Programs
RM is right, most AD who work not in the field, only wear there top 3 ribbons, and highsest earned badge/achievment. Most AD have arounf 6-7 rows of ribbons, unless you are at an public event, or banquet etc, they will wear the top 3.
In the AD AF the requirement is all or none. Mainly you will see enlisted wearing their ribbons while the officers won't. And we wear ABUs not ACUs in the AF unless assigned to an Army unit.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 15, 2012, 02:43:53 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 14, 2012, 06:43:40 PM
.... Find me an AD military man or woman who doesn't wear all the ribbons and badges they've EARNED and I'll show you someone who doesn't take his or her career seriously. I'd find it hard to believe someone who completed Jump School wouldn't wear their parachutist wings. Or the soldier who completed Ranger school who wouldn't wear their Ranger Tab. Or the combat vet who wouldn't wear their CIB. I highly doubt that any of these badges, ribbons, or medals were forced upon them. And they have all the experience in the world to back up their wearing of them.
Surely your "experience" for 20 years in Civil Air Patrol gives you every right to be making such broad statements about active duty, former active duty, and or retired military personnel career aspirations being linked to military ribbons wear on their military uniform >:( ???
In the AF unless one is wearing the service dress uniform, ribbons are optional. Generally the member will wear at least their highest specialty badge or wings, but could wear more. Generally my observation (in a bit over a 20 year military career) was that senior NCO's, and some former enlisted new officers tended to wear their ribbons with the blue shirt/pants combination and most others didn't wear ribbons. Kind of a mute point now a days since everyone in the AF seems to be running around dressed in ACU's all of the time :(
I agree that anyone wearing any type of CAP uniform should wear it properly. For what I do in CAP the various golf shirts with grey pants seem to work the best for me (but I also have the a one set of G/W and Blue BDU's that could be worn if necessary).
RM
Get off your high horse for one second and see that the things I said were not anywhere near the negativity you made it out to be. I was stating the fact that most people WILL wear the badges and ribbons they've earned over their career as a mark of what they did. I made no mention of where and when they wear them, only that they will. Yes, ribbons are OPTIONAL except on the service dress. I'm making the point that if one has EARNED a badge like the CIB or the Parachutist Badge or whatever that they tend to wear them and not store them in a drawer someplace and just say "yeah, I got one of those someplace" like some in CAP do and expect us to take their word for it, which we don't.
I make no more "broad" generalizations about AD men and women than you do about current CAP members. I have encountered many AD and retired military men and women in my travels and each and every one of them wears just about all the things they are entitled to wear on their uniform, ACU or service dress. Quite a few retired service members and veterans wear a hat with all their miniature decorations and badges on them, or a fatigue jacket with their former units and awards and whatnot. They are proud of what they've done and who they served with and when, as well they should be. My statement about not taking their career seriously probably was a little extreme in the fact that not all of us want or need accolades, but you don't know me or where I've been or what I've seen or what I know.
Quote from: David Vandenbroeck on September 15, 2012, 01:39:22 PM
It amazes me how many on here like operating in total anonymity. That is more typical of the somewhat cowardly behavior that you see on many rant type sites rather than on a site dedicated to an organization such as CAP.
Save it with the "cowardly" nonsense. If the moderators of this site wanted to, they could make it a requirement for posters to show their first, last, rank and number.
I'm a former IT puke and as many know, identity theft is almost epidemic in this day and age. "Harvesting," "phishing," etc...there is
no such thing as a completely secure website.
I have two firewalls on my computer but I know quite well that is no guarantee.
One thing I used to teach users about was "reducing your cyber footprint." If, like CT, a site requires me to register with my real name because of their TOS, I do so. However, again like CT, if a site does
not require a real name to be
displayed, I do not display mine.
You can call it paranoid if you like, but don't get on a "coward" kick. I've seen too many people who have had their identities compromised.
Please see remarks in bold/italics:
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 15, 2012, 03:34:52 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on September 15, 2012, 02:43:53 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on September 14, 2012, 06:43:40 PM
.... Find me an AD military man or woman who doesn't wear all the ribbons and badges they've EARNED and I'll show you someone who doesn't take his or her career seriously. I'd find it hard to believe someone who completed Jump School wouldn't wear their parachutist wings. Or the soldier who completed Ranger school who wouldn't wear their Ranger Tab. Or the combat vet who wouldn't wear their CIB. I highly doubt that any of these badges, ribbons, or medals were forced upon them. And they have all the experience in the world to back up their wearing of them.
Surely your "experience" for 20 years in Civil Air Patrol gives you every right to be making such broad statements about active duty, former active duty, and or retired military personnel career aspirations being linked to military ribbons wear on their military uniform >:( ???
RM
Get off your high horse for one second and see that the things I said were not anywhere near the negativity you made it out to be.
See original post above, seems pretty straight forward to me ::).
I was stating the fact that most people WILL wear the badges and ribbons they've earned over their career as a mark of what they did. I made no mention of where and when they wear them, only that they will. Yes, ribbons are OPTIONAL except on the service dress. I'm making the point that if one has EARNED a badge like the CIB or the Parachutist Badge or whatever that they tend to wear them and not store them in a drawer someplace and just say "yeah, I got one of those someplace" like some in CAP do and expect us to take their word for it, which we don't.
There's no CAP regulation that requires any active, reserve, former, or retired military member to prove to CAP that the military ribbons or badges/ratings that they are wearing on their CAP AF style uniform was actually awarded/earned. Of course those wearing the B/W's can't wear their military ribbons or badges/ratings anyways due to an AF restriction (but some of the military services do allow the wear of military ribbons etc on "patriotic" type uniforms). Again are you eluding that active/former/retired members are trying to wear awards/badges/ratings that they are not entitled to on their CAP military style uniforms ??? :-\ Of course if a former/retired military member wants advanced grade in CAP they will have to prove what their grade/rank was in the military as well as provide evidence on Professional Military Education completed
I make no more "broad" generalizations about AD men and women than you do about current CAP members. I have encountered many AD and retired military men and women in my travels and each and every one of them wears just about all the things they are entitled to wear on their uniform, ACU or service dress. Quite a few retired service members and veterans wear a hat with all their miniature decorations and badges on them, or a fatigue jacket with their former units and awards and whatnot. They are proud of what they've done and who they served with and when, as well they should be.
Unless you knew the AD/reserve/former/retired military members personally you would have no idea whether they were wearing everything that they earned (and really most aren't talking to people about what they've earned as far as medals/awards, etc). Gee I have hard time remember what ribbon is what for myself, and I definitely don't know all the AF awards/ribbons by memory (and am just about clueless on all the CAP awards/ribbons - but IF the powers to be want me to award me something for my volunteer efforts, I will say thank you and accept graciously). As far as former/retired military members wearing identifiable clothing, I found that it varies quite a bit, the general public can easily ID someone who has a hat/Tshirt that states "Viet Nam Vet", "AF, Marines, Army, Navy" (active or retired, maybe family member), and the ones that wear the specific unit they were in, perhaps those from that military service would recognize it, but not the general civilian population. I primarily wear a few different styles of base ball caps that state "Air Force Retired" and the BX relatively recently got in a variety of "Air Force Retired" Tshirts in that I purchased, because it's a simple way to let EVERYONE know what is my military status. Here again that is MY choice, and IF a AD/reserve/former/retired military member doesn't want to wear anything to ID them as military that's their personal choice (and I would think in any foreign country (and even a cruise ship) one would be very careful about readily identifying oneself as being associated with the US military).
My statement about not taking their career seriously probably was a little extreme in the fact that not all of us want or need accolades, but you don't know me or where I've been or what I've seen or what I know.
See your original post above, yea I think it was a bit extreme (and some of us on CAPTALK do get a bit extreme at times ;) ) I was kind of looking at your ribbon rack posted with your post, BUT was having a hard time since one of the ribbons looked to me like the AF Outstanding Unit Award, but yet there was no National Defense Service Medal is there a chart on the CAP website of all the CAP ribbons (the Vanguard chart is too small to see) ???
I'm sure you've served Civil Air Patrol with distinction and I salute you for your service :clap:RM
Ah I was wondering when standard typical ad hominem attacks would begin.