Hey everyone - it's me again. Here's another question for ya. The squadron commander has asked if I would like to take the role of Drill Instructor and I accepted. I will be instructing both Cadets and Sr. Members on proper drill (which means I need to get myself practiced up - haven't drilled since JROTC in High School!)
Anyways, the question is -- is the AF Military Training Instructor Cap authorized for wear in Civil Air Patrol? Or is there some other insignia in CAP that I am missing for this role?
I am also training a team for CyberPatriot next year, so watch out! :)
We don't have DIs, and we certainly don't wear their hats. There is no special insignia.
Thanks - that's what i needed to know. Just wasn't sure if there was official stuff that needed to be done or if it was purely an unofficial let's just get our squadron up to snuff on drill thing.
Appreciated
I do like the hat tho, too bad :)
Remember that CAP is not BMT.
Also note that SM's are not required to do drill. Not saying that its a bad idea, just not required by regs. Provided that any SM does drill, be aware of how you correct them. If we can't go fmj, you can't either.
If you haven't drilled since high school someone else should be a lead instructor.
We are thin on SMs right now. While there are a couple SMs that probably are more well prepared, I remember all the basics and have committed to giving myself a refresher prior to any instruction. After all, if I cannot correctly perform how can I expect the Cadets and SMs to do so. We are aware that SMs are not *required* to drill, but as you say it isn't a bad idea and we feel it will create greater cohesiveness within the squadron. Besides it hasn't been *that many* years since I drilled in H.S. - more than I would like to admit, but I am still a young man.
And I don't think there are any worries about going all FMJ - this is CAP not The Core :)
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 16, 2012, 09:55:38 PM
Besides it hasn't been *that many* years since I drilled in H.S. - more than I would like to admit, but I am still a young man.
Too broad a span and IIRC you have a teen and married so it's been many years.
There is also no such position as 'drill instructor' in CAP.
There is 'leadership officer' which oversees things such as drill, and uniforms (etc)
However really, to implement the cadet program properly, the people teaching drill in your squadron (to your cadet airmen) _REALLY_ should be your cadet NCO's. Now, of course they (the cadet NCO's) need to be taught how to teach drill, and honestly they need their efforts to be QC'd by an experienced and qualified mentor. That is quite a long way from wearing the smoky bear hat and smoking cadets on the sidewalk outside your meeting location.
This is _very_ different from how JROTC drill teams run (from what i've seen of them), where i've seen an actual USAF NCO commanding the formation of JRTOC troops. CAP doesn't "do that".
Senior members really do need to know how to stand at attention, render a proper salute, and report front and center at a formation or ceremony, take, shake, and salute. And that's about it. Anything more than that is completely optional at the discretion of each senior member (and the _vast_ majority don't want to do that much, let alone more).
And FYI..................... It's not "The Core". It's the Corp.
As in United States Marine Corps.
Just thought you should know.
Remember, required as part of cadet achievements (drill tests) as they promote to higher grade, is not only the cadet's ability follow drill orders, but their ability to drill other cadets.
Ideally, you'd want to have experienced cadets training the new cadets, and as those new cadets advance in grade and position, they become instructors themselves teaching newer cadets after them.
I was never a Marine, but I think(gently)that the correct wording is "The Corps." Correct pronounciation is "the core".
Doh! Apologies to any Marines - I obviously was not one, I was only speaking to the FMJ reference.
Anyhow, yes - the cadet NCOs will be (and currently do) drilling the cadets. The details of what I will be doing precisely are kind of open ended at this time. I know that I want to spend a lot of time working with our Color Guard to get them tightened up and work with them on new things to help create opportunities for them. I also want to make sure that we set some realistic goals as a squadron to clean up and get the basics down pat. Opportunities to do things like march in a parade are huge recruiting opportunities for us and I think it is important that the cadets be tight for those types of events (which we have on the schedule)
The main question was if there was some sort of official position and insignia for that position - seeing as how there is not that question has most definitely been answered. I personally think that even though there is no "requirement" for Senior Members to drill that they should be in proper positions during opening ceremonies, understand the basics of drill, as well as what was already mentioned (knowing how/when to salute, etc). We are mentors for the cadets in our squadron and it is unfair to expect them to take drill and ceremonies seriously if we do not. That is however, just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.
Yes - I have already noted several big differences between JROTC drill and CAP drill. I dont expect our cadets to be perfect at drill, but I think it is important for the squadron to understand and practice drill and ceremonies, including the Sr Members.
I am going to take a stab and say you weren't AFJROTC. The AF D&C manual is your friend and guide and there are links to it at capmembers.com as well as videos on how to execute the basic moves as well as drill of a flight. If you were a different branch you will need to fight the urge to teach that aspect of D&C. Since SMs are not required to drill outside of the bare basics I would not expect much from them in the process unless they are CP officers.
Motivation and enthusiasm is good especially if it is positive bit do not be over bearing with it or you will turn people off and away.
As a matter of fact it was AFJROTC :) Our Drill Sgt was insane...
I have the AF manual as well as the stuff from the capmembers site in my big black book - my neighbors looked at me like I was crazy while I was running myself through the basics earlier today in my gym shorts and a t-shirt with my dress shoes on (for snap). I suppose anyone looks a little strange when they are giving themselves drill commands though.
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 16, 2012, 09:55:38 PM
We are thin on SMs right now. While there are a couple SMs that probably are more well prepared, I remember all the basics and have committed to giving myself a refresher prior to any instruction. After all, if I cannot correctly perform how can I expect the Cadets and SMs to do so. We are aware that SMs are not *required* to drill, but as you say it isn't a bad idea and we feel it will create greater cohesiveness within the squadron. Besides it hasn't been *that many* years since I drilled in H.S. - more than I would like to admit, but I am still a young man.
And I don't think there are any worries about going all FMJ - this is CAP not The Core :)
If you're referring to
Uncle
Sam's
Misguided
Children, that would be
The Corps.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 17, 2012, 06:08:47 AM
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 16, 2012, 09:55:38 PM
We are thin on SMs right now. While there are a couple SMs that probably are more well prepared, I remember all the basics and have committed to giving myself a refresher prior to any instruction. After all, if I cannot correctly perform how can I expect the Cadets and SMs to do so. We are aware that SMs are not *required* to drill, but as you say it isn't a bad idea and we feel it will create greater cohesiveness within the squadron. Besides it hasn't been *that many* years since I drilled in H.S. - more than I would like to admit, but I am still a young man.
And I don't think there are any worries about going all FMJ - this is CAP not The Core :)
If you're referring to Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, that would be The Corps.
I thought it was
Uncle
Sam's
Misbegotten
Children? I have an uncle with Marine combat service in Korea and I think that's what he used to say.
either way seems to work. I always heard that Marines were like Texas Aggies: you can tell them, but you can't tell them much.
Seriously, if I get into a fight, I'll want Marines on my side.
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 17, 2012, 05:49:29 AM
As a matter of fact it was AFJROTC :) Our Drill Sgt was insane...
I have the AF manual as well as the stuff from the capmembers site in my big black book - my neighbors looked at me like I was crazy while I was running myself through the basics earlier today in my gym shorts and a t-shirt with my dress shoes on (for snap). I suppose anyone looks a little strange when they are giving themselves drill commands though.
An interesting extension of what you're doing - what is the purpose of drilling? What purpose does it serve and what do others get out of it?
Remember WIIFM (What's in it for me). You'll never convince a fish that fishing is a great idea by telling them how delicious dinner will be. What do others get out of drilling and what if they don't?
Quote from: bflynn on May 17, 2012, 06:46:07 PM
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 17, 2012, 05:49:29 AM
As a matter of fact it was AFJROTC :) Our Drill Sgt was insane...
I have the AF manual as well as the stuff from the capmembers site in my big black book - my neighbors looked at me like I was crazy while I was running myself through the basics earlier today in my gym shorts and a t-shirt with my dress shoes on (for snap). I suppose anyone looks a little strange when they are giving themselves drill commands though.
An interesting extension of what you're doing - what is the purpose of drilling? What purpose does it serve and what do others get out of it?
Remember WIIFM (What's in it for me). You'll never convince a fish that fishing is a great idea by telling them how delicious dinner will be. What do others get out of drilling and what if they don't?
Well, since you asked...
Drilling is a great way to build
Esprit De Corps, and it build the team as such, and it builds the individuals in there. It is also, in the most practical sense, a great way to move folks from point A to point B. :P
Yes, but moving from point A to point B for senior members, if it's more than 50 or so feet, requires wheeled/winged transportation. If it's less than 50 feet, it may be a slow moving gaggle, but only if there is coffee/snacks at point B. :D
Very true. Maybe we should implement PT standards for SMs? ;D Entirely kidding, BTW....
Smile when you say that :)
Seriously, I think we understand the military based reasons for it.
I was just hoping to get you to think about what will happen if your audience doesn't share your enthuasim. Different people want different things from the organization. Not everyone wants EDC or a great way to get from A to B.
All joking aside, I think there should absolutely be PT req's for SMs participating in ES at the very least - there may be, I haven't made it that far in reading yet. If I am not mistaken most first responder types (fireman, cops, emt) all have physical fitness requirements as part of the promotion process as well. If you are qualified to hike up a mountain and rescue an injured climber you [darn] sure well better be able to actually perform that task.
I am establishing a daily routing for both my son and I to do so A) he gets the exercise he needs to pass PT tests and get promoted and B) I can get back into the shape that I used to be in. 7 years of office work has taken it's toll on me and I want to make sure that I am in physical condition to provide any ES that may come our way. Even if we never get a mission, I would rather be physcially able to do so and never need to than have the need arise and not be able to fulfill my end of the bargain.
As for the "whats in it for me" question - I think that Levilockling hit the nail on the head, but I also think it's much more than that.
I remember many years ago we had a corporate team building exercise at work - it happened in 2 phases. Phase 1 we formed 2 teams (Red and Blue) and developed training strategies for Phase 2 - an all out paintball war in the hills. As part of our training I went back to some of the drill that I learned way back in high school and thought about how I could get people to move as a unit - people of many different shapes, sizes and abilities. I decided to split my team into 3 smaller units - we had an assault unit, a support unit, and overwatch. The assualt unit was tasked with acquiring the enemy flag. They had to learn to move swiftly and quietly and with purpose through a wooded area. This is where the drilling came in - and silent drilling at that, I worked with 4 primary commands - forward, right, left and halt. I worked on cadence with them so that if they were heard - it would be more likely that their numbers would be underestimated as it would be a single set of footsteps through the woods instead of 6 sets. After the event was over we had all developed a different kind of bond than we had with some of the other people we worked with and I found myself kind of wishing that I had included the others in that exercise as well, but you know what they say about hindsight. Learning to function as a single entity builds on ones skills to identify and fill voids in a team - which is an invaluable life lesson, it gives us a unique skillset to adapt to various situations by using everyone's strengths, and it helps to teach us about how we can gain greater success by working with others instead of against them.
TL;DR - It is a great teambuilding and character building exercise and helps you succeed on a lot of different levels in life.
This is all just my $0.02 so take it FWIW, but I hope you found some answers in my story. I told my son the same story when he asked why drilling was important.
I disagree, we have many qualified SMs who participate in ES but for one reason or another would not/ cannot do/pass PT, but they still provide essential services during ES missions and other missions we carry out in CAP.
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 17, 2012, 05:07:12 AM
Doh! Apologies to any Marines - I obviously was not one, I was only speaking to the FMJ reference.
Anyhow, yes - the cadet NCOs will be (and currently do) drilling the cadets. The details of what I will be doing precisely are kind of open ended at this time. I know that I want to spend a lot of time working with our Color Guard to get them tightened up and work with them on new things to help create opportunities for them. I also want to make sure that we set some realistic goals as a squadron to clean up and get the basics down pat. Opportunities to do things like march in a parade are huge recruiting opportunities for us and I think it is important that the cadets be tight for those types of events (which we have on the schedule)
The main question was if there was some sort of official position and insignia for that position - seeing as how there is not that question has most definitely been answered. I personally think that even though there is no "requirement" for Senior Members to drill that they should be in proper positions during opening ceremonies, understand the basics of drill, as well as what was already mentioned (knowing how/when to salute, etc). We are mentors for the cadets in our squadron and it is unfair to expect them to take drill and ceremonies seriously if we do not. That is however, just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.
Yes - I have already noted several big differences between JROTC drill and CAP drill. I dont expect our cadets to be perfect at drill, but I think it is important for the squadron to understand and practice drill and ceremonies, including the Sr Members.
I wouldn't worry about some sort of special hat or insignia. You would do more for your unit by being the model of how the uniform should be worn. Smokie the Bear Hats have their role in basic training and are rarely seen away from Lackland because it is a duty uniform. I think it would be interesting if CAP might someday consider an instructor's badge and the cool one is not the hubcap that is worn now, but the winged one with a torch in the middle that was worn in the 50s and early 60s. One other thing, the Air Force doesn't have DIs, they have TIs for training instructors. By the time you get to tech school, they're STAs for student training assistants.
QuoteI disagree, we have many qualified SMs who participate in ES but for one reason or another would not/ cannot do/pass PT, but they still provide essential services during ES missions and other missions we carry out in CAP.[/quote[
Indeed - I absolutely agree with this statement - if you are qualified to perform a physical task in ES should you not also be required to demonstrate that you are capable of fulfilling said task?
Quote
I wouldn't worry about some sort of special hat or insignia. You would do more for your unit by being the model of how the uniform should be worn. Smokie the Bear Hats have their role in basic training and are rarely seen away from Lackland because it is a duty uniform. I think it would be interesting if CAP might someday consider an instructor's badge and the cool one is not the hubcap that is worn now, but the winged one with a torch in the middle that was worn in the 50s and early 60s. One other thing, the Air Force doesn't have DIs, they have TIs for training instructors. By the time you get to tech school, they're STAs for student training assistants.
Well said. I realized my err in terminology shortly after starting this thread - back in JROTC we simply referred to him as Sir or Drill Sgt. I think it would be cool to give the CAP instructor's a title of their own personally. Squadron Training Instructor, Drill and Ceremonies Instructor, Cadet Team-building Instructor or something along those lines with a unique insignia or badge would be pretty cool.
My observations thus far are that it appears that cadets are given the drill guide, shown some of the basics by C/NCO or other members of the Squadron and anything more they are expected to learn on their own. They study to the drill tests, rather than demonstrating their ability to drill when given a drill test. This type of setup is counter-intuitive to the primary purposes of drill. Everyone in the unit should be on the same page when it comes to drill, the strongest individual is only as strong as his weakest teammate when you are in a unit - it doesn't matter if one guy knows all the right things to do, if there is one person that doesn't. By altering the way that drill is taught to cadets, we then adapt from a culture of individual achievement to cooperation and peer-instruction, but they won't do it on their own and that should be the role of the instructor.
Again, just my $0.02
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 17, 2012, 08:50:50 PM
All joking aside, I think there should absolutely be PT req's for SMs participating in ES at the very least - there may be, I haven't made it that far in reading yet. If I am not mistaken most first responder types (fireman, cops, emt) all have physical fitness requirements as part of the promotion process as well. If you are qualified to hike up a mountain and rescue an injured climber you [darn] sure well better be able to actually perform that task.
This probably needs it's own thread, and maybe the mods can split out this topic.
I tend to agree with you that SOME ES tasks should have physical fitness requirements. Obviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw ;) . If a UDF team member can walk 50 yards on pavement, he's probably good, but a GTM should be required to demonstrate the ability to handle the physical stress and strain that is involved.
In my opinion, the best "uniform distinction" for anyone serving as a "DI" in CAP (and, yes, I know there is no official such position) would be to wear their uniform in it's most refined way to act as an example for others.
As for PT for adults, I think it would be a good idea on a voluteer basis. I would likely do it, however, making it mandatory would create a backlash. Some seniors would do some running...for the door.
One time, a long time ago, when we had only3 cadets or so, I asked some seniors to help so they could march in a formation to experience columns and the like. They helped, but a captain pulled me aside and told me that they were upset about it. I explain that is wasn't mandatory and I had only called for volunteers. That said, one person did not show up for three meeting thinking we were gonna start with drill.
I even had some people try to complain about starting with the Pledge. I was willing to compromise and blow "To the Colors" on the bugle if they had religious issues (with "Under God", but they agreed to render the proper respect for the flag.
Quote from: jeders on May 18, 2012, 01:54:16 PMObviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.
I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful. I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.
Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight. But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.
You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 02:39:52 PM
Quote from: jeders on May 18, 2012, 01:54:16 PMObviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.
I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful. I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.
Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight. But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.
You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.
I tend to agree...most senior members are not lazy slobs. And so what if there are doughnuts and coffee at events? They are not the reason people go, they go to service the mission not for free pastries. Careful all, the things is that Cadet pick up on this sort of rethoric and start to develop attitudes based on it.
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 02:39:52 PM
Quote from: jeders on May 18, 2012, 01:54:16 PMObviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.
I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful. I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.
Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight. But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.
You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.
First off, take a chill pill. No insults were taken, and you seem to have completely missed the point. Base personnel don't need PT requirements because there is very little in the way of physical exertion. When I'm working as a branch director or section chief, 98% of the time I'm sitting in a chair. The other 2% is spent walking to the break room to get another doughnut.
Topic. If you want to discuss the physical fitness of members, there are existing threads on that you can certainly look through and if necessary, resurrect, but this topics have been beaten to death already.
Now actually on topic, if this is a senior member duty assignment, I don't understand why some sort of special position is being created. Drill & ceremonies fall under the purview of the Leadership Officer within a squadron. So if this individual is going to be focusing on strengthening the squadron's drill & ceremonies training, why wouldn't this person be assigned to either the Leadership Officer billet or made an Assistant Leadership Officer?
Truth in advertising.
Even 20-1 says that it is not all inclusive.....and while drill and ceremonies fall under the Leadership Officer......if his primary instructor in all things drill is called the Drill Instructor....where is the harm in that?
So long as it ends with the title.
Let's not be opening a can of worms with suggesting we add the smokey bear to our uniform options.
****Full Disclosure****
In E-service my duty position is Advisor to the Commander.....but I am my squadron's First Sergeant...(no dimond). :D
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 02:39:52 PM
Quote from: jeders on May 18, 2012, 01:54:16 PMObviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.
I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful. I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.
Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight. But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.
You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.
Really? Man...your SARs suck dude. Every SAR EX, CD Op, or actual SAR Ive ever been on.....that was the best part! As far as PT standards? Yeah...whatever. 99% of LE and public EMS agencies dont even have PT standards beyond the academy.
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 18, 2012, 03:50:40 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 02:39:52 PM
Quote from: jeders on May 18, 2012, 01:54:16 PMObviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.
I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful. I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.
Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight. But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.
You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.
Really? Every SAR EX, CD Op, or actual SAR Ive ever been on.....that was the best part! As far as PT standards? Yeah...whatever. 99% of LE and public EMS agencies dont even have PT standards beyond the academy.
I make it a point to buy a dozen on my way into the mission base.......mmmmmmm doughnuts.
Sometimes we need to just take ourselves a little less serious. :o
Quote from: lordmonar on May 18, 2012, 03:53:14 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on May 18, 2012, 03:50:40 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 02:39:52 PM
Quote from: jeders on May 18, 2012, 01:54:16 PMObviously most mission base staff don't need any physical fitness requirements because the heaviest lifting they do is that extra large bear claw.
I'm going to throw out a comment - I know it's in jest, but I personally find the sterotype joke about SMs sitting around eating doughnuts to be insulting and hurtful. I've never seen the first doughnut, pastry or even bagel at any event, including a two day long sarex, so there isn't any truth for it to be funny about.
Yes, a lot of us need to lose weight. But if you look around, that isn't limited to CAP and isn't indicative of a fault of SMs.
You can laugh now, but trust me that one day (sooner than you expect) it will be you.
Really? Every SAR EX, CD Op, or actual SAR Ive ever been on.....that was the best part! As far as PT standards? Yeah...whatever. 99% of LE and public EMS agencies dont even have PT standards beyond the academy.
I make it a point to buy a dozen on my way into the mission base.......mmmmmmm doughnuts.
Sometimes we need to just take ourselves a little less serious. :o
Oh...those were yours? Sorry. I guess I owe you about 3 dozen.
I think any senior involved in CP should at least know the basics of drill, and be able to help point out common mistakes in D&C to the staff. cadets will have more respect for seniors that show the initiative to learn what cadets have to. I know I always had more respect for seniors when they could quote something out of the D&C manual and be able to show me how to do it properly.
Now I'm not saying you have to be able to do a counter march, or anything like that. Just be able to recognize a mistakes in drill, and be able to show them how to correct it off on the side, NEVER in front of the flight of course.
QuoteNow actually on topic, if this is a senior member duty assignment, I don't understand why some sort of special position is being created. Drill & ceremonies fall under the purview of the Leadership Officer within a squadron. So if this individual is going to be focusing on strengthening the squadron's drill & ceremonies training, why wouldn't this person be assigned to either the Leadership Officer billet or made an Assistant Leadership Officer?
I haven't approached that subject with the Commander yet, and maybe that will ultimately be the correct course of action.
QuoteEven 20-1 says that it is not all inclusive.....and while drill and ceremonies fall under the Leadership Officer......if his primary instructor in all things drill is called the Drill Instructor....where is the harm in that?
So long as it ends with the title.
+1 - I see absolutely no harm in it, and was merely interested if there was even such as designation within CAP already.
QuoteLet's not be opening a can of worms with suggesting we add the smokey bear to our uniform options.
Good call! After some of the other threads I have seen, I should have known better than to fall in to that trap!
QuoteI think any senior involved in CP should at least know the basics of drill, and be able to help point out common mistakes in D&C to the staff. cadets will have more respect for seniors that show the initiative to learn what cadets have to. I know I always had more respect for seniors when they could quote something out of the D&C manual and be able to show me how to do it properly.
Absolutely 100% in agreement with you on this Cool Mace. I also think that when a Cadet or Composite is invited to
MARCH in a parade, they should be able to do so correctly and in step with the rest of the squadron. :)
On the subject of what senior members should know about drill and ceremonies....
I don't think they need to know everything......even those "working CP"....those teaching or monitoring teaching drill should know it inside and out.
But rank and file SM should know the stationary drill...how to fall in, facing, present arms, right step, forward march, halt....but that's about it....so we could at least get them to fall in for a flag ceremony.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 18, 2012, 03:53:14 PM
Sometimes we need to just take ourselves a little less serious. :o
Can't help it, I'm a serious person. My humor is very dry, most people don't get it.
On the subject of drill - falling into formation is pretty simple. Stand here, don't wiggle and don't lock your knees. I suspect we have enough veterans to get that done without needing to train on it.
Volunteers have great energy. If you direct that energy toward certain tasks, there is less left for doing the missions. Don't ask your people to do anything that doesn't contribute to one of the missions. I don't see that having a leadership officer conduct drill training to be something that contributes to any of our missions.
With the Drill Test required now at every achievement (L2L) I wouldn't mind getting more into drill as a senior member.
It's hard to evaluate what you never have to learn.
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 08:03:51 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 18, 2012, 03:53:14 PM
Sometimes we need to just take ourselves a little less serious. :o
Can't help it, I'm a serious person. My humor is very dry, most people don't get it.
On the subject of drill - falling into formation is pretty simple. Stand here, don't wiggle and don't lock your knees. I suspect we have enough veterans to get that done without needing to train on it.
Volunteers have great energy. If you direct that energy toward certain tasks, there is less left for doing the missions. Don't ask your people to do anything that doesn't contribute to one of the missions. I don't see that having a leadership officer conduct drill training to be something that contributes to any of our missions.
Teaching Cadets drill is part of the Cadet Programs mission which is one of our three main missions.
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 08:03:51 PMVolunteers have great energy. If you direct that energy toward certain tasks, there is less left for doing the missions. Don't ask your people to do anything that doesn't contribute to one of the missions. I don't see that having a leadership officer conduct drill training to be something that contributes to any of our missions.
It's called professionalism, appearance and pride - something sorely lacking and a major part of our mission.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 18, 2012, 06:55:36 PM
On the subject of what senior members should know about drill and ceremonies....
I don't think they need to know everything......even those "working CP"....those teaching or monitoring teaching drill should know it inside and out.
But rank and file SM should know the stationary drill...how to fall in, facing, present arms, right step, forward march, halt....but that's about it....so we could at least get them to fall in for a flag ceremony.
I don't think we need to know EVERYTHING, but knowing how it's supposed to be done helps a lot. When I was a cadet (and to this day), I have more respect for the seniors in CP who take the time to learn what the cadets have to go through. If we don't know what they need need to learn, how can we teach them? Isn't that part of the job when you're in CP? I know not every aspect of CP is like this, but I would say the majority.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2012, 08:44:37 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 08:03:51 PMVolunteers have great energy. If you direct that energy toward certain tasks, there is less left for doing the missions. Don't ask your people to do anything that doesn't contribute to one of the missions. I don't see that having a leadership officer conduct drill training to be something that contributes to any of our missions.
It's called professionalism, appearance and pride - something sorely lacking and a major part of our mission.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Couldn't agree more.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2012, 08:44:37 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 08:03:51 PMVolunteers have great energy. If you direct that energy toward certain tasks, there is less left for doing the missions. Don't ask your people to do anything that doesn't contribute to one of the missions. I don't see that having a leadership officer conduct drill training to be something that contributes to any of our missions.
It's called professionalism, appearance and pride - something sorely lacking and a major part of our mission.
Is there a ribbon for telling it like it is? If there is, then someone please award it to Eclipse for this post.
I should read the whole thing before I post....sorry
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 08:03:51 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on May 18, 2012, 03:53:14 PM
Sometimes we need to just take ourselves a little less serious. :o
Can't help it, I'm a serious person. My humor is very dry, most people don't get it.
On the subject of drill - falling into formation is pretty simple. Stand here, don't wiggle and don't lock your knees. I suspect we have enough veterans to get that done without needing to train on it.
Volunteers have great energy. If you direct that energy toward certain tasks, there is less left for doing the missions. Don't ask your people to do anything that doesn't contribute to one of the missions. I don't see that having a leadership officer conduct drill training to be something that contributes to any of our missions.
CAP is also a paramilitary organisation....so all our members should at least know how to stand if formation and receive an award in a military manner.
Quote from: capmaj on May 17, 2012, 12:29:40 AM
And FYI..................... It's not "The Core". It's the Corp.
As in United States Marine Corps.
Just thought you should know.
Perhaps we are the Corp. as in the abbreviation for corporation. A corporation is what we are whenever we are not the USAFA. So if the USMC is the Corps then the CAP/USAFA can be the Corp. ;)
Since some people on CAPTalk say CAP is sying, does that mean the CORP is short for CAP CORPse
Quote from: SarDragon on May 17, 2012, 06:08:47 AM
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 16, 2012, 09:55:38 PM
We are thin on SMs right now. While there are a couple SMs that probably are more well prepared, I remember all the basics and have committed to giving myself a refresher prior to any instruction. After all, if I cannot correctly perform how can I expect the Cadets and SMs to do so. We are aware that SMs are not *required* to drill, but as you say it isn't a bad idea and we feel it will create greater cohesiveness within the squadron. Besides it hasn't been *that many* years since I drilled in H.S. - more than I would like to admit, but I am still a young man.
And I don't think there are any worries about going all FMJ - this is CAP not The Core :)
If you're referring to Uncle Sam's Misguided Children, that would be The Corps.
Muscles
Are
Required
Intelligence
Not
Essential
As a former Sergeant of Marines and Infantry Plt Sq ldr and Plt Sgt, I can say whatever I want! ;D
And you often do just that.
^Theres the pot calling the kettle black ;D
Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2012, 08:44:37 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 08:03:51 PMVolunteers have great energy. If you direct that energy toward certain tasks, there is less left for doing the missions. Don't ask your people to do anything that doesn't contribute to one of the missions. I don't see that having a leadership officer conduct drill training to be something that contributes to any of our missions.
It's called professionalism, appearance and pride - something sorely lacking and a major part of our mission.
Why do you say "sorely lacking" and "major part of our mission"? Which mission requires a military appearance to accomplish? Why do you say it is "sorely" lacking? My experience has been that almost everyone puts good effort into complying with uniform regulations and does a good job accomplishing them.
Could we be better in looking great and flying better? Absolutely. But I believe you can always improve those things. The question is what is the benefit of a military appearance that helps us do what we do better? How does a neat military appearance according to CAPR 39-1 help the guy in the field do his job better?
In the end, effort put into looking sharp is effort that doesn't go into other activities...I can shine my shoes or take BOQ....decisions, decisions....
Quote from: bflynn on May 20, 2012, 04:36:38 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 18, 2012, 08:44:37 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 18, 2012, 08:03:51 PMVolunteers have great energy. If you direct that energy toward certain tasks, there is less left for doing the missions. Don't ask your people to do anything that doesn't contribute to one of the missions. I don't see that having a leadership officer conduct drill training to be something that contributes to any of our missions.
It's called professionalism, appearance and pride - something sorely lacking and a major part of our mission.
Why do you say "sorely lacking" and "major part of our mission"? Which mission requires a military appearance to accomplish? Why do you say it is "sorely" lacking? My experience has been that almost everyone puts good effort into complying with uniform regulations and does a good job accomplishing them.
Could we be better in looking great and flying better? Absolutely. But I believe you can always improve those things. The question is what is the benefit of a military appearance that helps us do what we do better? How does a neat military appearance according to CAPR 39-1 help the guy in the field do his job better?
In the end, effort put into looking sharp is effort that doesn't go into other activities...I can shine my shoes or take BOQ....decisions, decisions....
Where it helps is your command presence when dealing with outside agencies. The military seems to think its important. LE and EMS feel uniform appearance, even in the field is important. When CAP shows up to missions, outside agencies, for the most part usually think CAP is part of the military because most have never heard of it. Ive been to missions where Ive heard people ask what CAP is, "I think its part of the Air Force, like Reserves or something" Thats a quote from a Fed Agent while I was a mentor pilot at the DEA Overflight course.
Even in the field. (Im not referring to combat). Do you need to be spit an polished? No, but you need to be squared away and professional. When people all start showing up in different uniforms, different gear, or variations of approved uniforms it starts to give the impression that your just a gaggle. After a few days out on a GT, OK, its not going to be maintained, but dont SHOW UP to a search base looking like you've already spent 5 days in the field! Ive seen that on more than one occassion. Dirty, scuffed boots and filthy gear and a wrinkled faded set of old BDUs arent impressing anyone.
Our volunteer SAR unit that is part of our Sheriff SAR is very aware of their appearance in the field. 5.11 cargo pants and the long sleeve SAR orange button up shirt and SAR team hat. You really cant tell the difference between them and the full time Deputies on SAR other than not having a gun.
So does a uniform appearance make us actually do our jobs better? Ehhhh, probably not, but it affects how people unfamiliar with CAP relate to us, and there is the attention to detail aspect that cant be overlooked. If your uniform looks like $%^&, Id hate to see the rest of your gear.
Quote from: bflynn on May 20, 2012, 04:36:38 PM
Which mission requires a military appearance to accomplish?
I would say that a military appearance is integral to the Cadet Programs mission. And I think that many here would agree with me. Looking professional is a big part of leadership.
QuoteYour personal appearance will set the standard for
your unit. What you give, you'll get. If you look good, chances are
your troops will emulate you. If you look sloppy, chances are
your troops will emulate you.
-from
Heirpower! by Bob Vasquez, CMSgt, USAF, Ret.
Having a sharp, professional image sets the tone for you as a leader as well as your followers. If you are attaining excellence in uniform wear, then chances are that feeling will translate to how you do your job.
Perception is reality. If you look like a duffle bag you will be thought of as a duffle bag, you look sharp you will be thought of as sharp.
I dont want to take this to far off in a different direction, but you should do some study on police officer assault stats as it deals with appearance to understand an interesting human reaction as it deals with uniforms. You will find that one of the primary reasons a suspect decides to attack an officer is the perceived lack of command presence, starting with uniform appearance. Many suspects stated that the officers initial appearance started the ball rolling as to whether they would decide to attack. The perception is by looking sloppy, you are sloppy. Suspects noted looking at the pistol in the holster. If they see dirt and lint on the rear sights of your gun, some interpreted that to mean your gun has been in its holster a while (meaning you may not shoot much). If they could see your handcuffs (depending on the type of cuff case) and they were dirty or rusty, again.....you must not use them very often they believed.
Many young officers are of the misconception that letting their boots go unpolished and allowing their leather gear to get dirty and start turning brown and rough looking might make them look salty and seasoned and somehow cause suspects to believe they are "experienced". When interviewing suspects who had attacked and/or killed police officers, studies showed the exact opposite. It showed that officers who were polished, pressed with good looking equipment conveyed an impression of caring about their job which translated into "This cop must take this S--T seriously." Thats a quote ;D
When getting into the areas of physical fitness, there were obvious benefits to the officer in the way of perceptions, but not nearly as much as you might think. What is also interesting about the study was the male or female, old or young seemed to have little to do with a suspects decision to attack the officer.
Although we are not worried about being attacked at CAP members, I find in my 15years as a cop that gangsters and the criminal element operated very much in the realm of the primitive, simple areas of psychology. They dont have the social traditions of politeness that is engrained in people normally. If they dont like you, they tell you. If they perceive they can hit you and knock you down, they will. If they look at you and decide they cant win, they wont. If you can stand toe to toe with a gang member or someone prone to violence and convince them they will lose based on your command presence and appearance you CANNOT convince me that uniform appearance in CAP has no bearing on how we are looked at. Think about your own experiences? Weve all seen military people who are solid ie. A Marine Drill Instructor vs some schmuk who looks like hes wearing a tent as a uniform. If you look like crap, your stock WILL go down. If you cant spell or speak properly your stock will drop. And youll have to work that much harder to rebuild it before you can move on.
Maybe we civilized people don't say it out loud, but somewhere in the deepest parts of our primitive senses, it does have an effect. Why do you think uniform inspections are such a big part of a basic police academy? Because what you look like affects what people think of you. Nobody cares if its fair, nobody cares about "dont judge a book by its cover" Why do we say things like that? Those are things we tell ourselves to remind us that our brain holds on to initial impressions.
I work with a person who is a very high ranking official. Smart, been around a while, seasoned. But he looks like a sack of potatoes. It is my belief that he would get much more done if he lost about 50lbs and if his uniform didn't look like it came out of the bottom of the hamper. I think, actually I know, he has to spend a lot of time talking to get people to look beyond his sloppy presentation. In CAP, we deal with people in agencies who look at an unkept uniform and a lack of basic physical fitness as weakness and a flaw. Are they going to punch you in the face over it like a gangster? No, but the same psychological reactions are still present. Fair? Nobody really cares if its fair. Thats just how it is.
Basic uniform standards have been a hallmark of soldiering and leadership for 3000+ years and since the beginnings of organized professional armies. There is a reason too that only the elite of professional militaries are given discretion in the area of uniforms. But even then, its mission specific, not a standard.
You guys are spot on - probably the single best piece of advice ever given to me by a mentor in my life was that you "dress for the job you want, not the job you have." Having a professional appearance, speaking clearly and with purpose, having a command appearance, and demonstrating the desire to strive for perfection can help you go a long way in life. As SMs in Cadet Programs it is our *responsibility* to demonstrate this ourselves. Well said guys.
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 20, 2012, 06:00:04 PM
Perception is reality. If you look like a duffle bag you will be thought of as a duffle bag, you look sharp you will be thought of as sharp.
And nobody is talking about looking like a duffle bag. That you have a clean, neatly presented uniform is a given...well, unless you've been out working.
My question is still - what does
military professionalism get us that civilian professionalism does not? Emphasis on the word military. Remember that this thread started from the prospect of doing military drill...why?
Professional police, fire and EMS crews are not military. They wear uniforms, look good and behave professionally. But the are not military, nor even paramilitary.
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 01:31:57 PMMy question is still - what does military professionalism get us that civilian professionalism does not? Emphasis on the word military. Remember that this thread started from the prospect of doing military drill...why?
CAP is a paramilitary organization.
1/3-1/2 of our mission is a paramilitary cadet program that shares the same resources and leaders. A program in which all members
are supposed to participate.
Our parent service is a military organization.
Many of the resources we use, share, or regularly request, are from military and paramilitary organizations.
1/3-1/2 of our mission is emergency services, and a paramilitary model of respect, appearance, adherence to regulations, and expectation of compliance to directives without filter is what every successful law enforcement agency and fire department adheres to.
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 01:31:57 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 20, 2012, 06:00:04 PM
Perception is reality. If you look like a duffle bag you will be thought of as a duffle bag, you look sharp you will be thought of as sharp.
And nobody is talking about looking like a duffle bag. That you have a clean, neatly presented uniform is a given...well, unless you've been out working.
My question is still - what does military professionalism get us that civilian professionalism does not? Emphasis on the word military. Remember that this thread started from the prospect of doing military drill...why?
Professional police, fire and EMS crews are not military. They wear uniforms, look good and behave professionally. But the are not military, nor even paramilitary.
Wow man...where have you been? LE and EMS are very much paramilitary organizations. And guess what? We drill too. A huge part of the academy is drill. And its done for the same reasons. Teamwork, Esprit de Corps (and to practice for graduation)
Quote from: Eclipse on May 21, 2012, 02:15:23 PMCAP is a paramilitary organization.
Is there something that says that? Or is that just your opinion?
There's nothing inherient about professionalism that is unique to military. We can be sharp, be professional and be good - and not be military.
We can also get the job done, be extrememly proficient and excellent at what we do and look like a duffle bag. I've been in both types of organizations. I know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.
I don't advocate looking sloppy, but I put mission effectiveness and results ahead of appearance. In the end, if you deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like. Also, if you don't deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like.
I hestitate to use a TV show as an example, but M*A*S*H comes to mind. The best doctors were the ones who hated the military the most.
Did I just date myself?
Civil Air Patrol is a paramilitary organization, like it or not. We wear a military uniform, use military customs and courtesies.
Appearance speaks volumes as does mission accomplishment, you have to find a balanced point with both. And MASH was a work of fiction as well and let me tell you there are plenty civilian doctors working in military health care I do not want near me with a ten foot pole.
Now we can go back and forth over what is a higher priority but in the end perception is reality you look like a dufflebag you will be thought of as a dufflebag, you look sharp you will be thought of as sharp. Bear in mind perception may change but it will take more effort to change it than to present a clean sharp appearance.
Continuing the drift (or hard turn off topic...)
In the past couple years I have seen more base staff wearing the golf shirt than bdus or flightsuits. When someone walks in (member or non-member) and sees everyone wearing basically the same thing (details may vary - dress slacks vs 5.11's vs grey bdu pants, but it's generally navy blue over grey), the first impression is the staff is a TEAM, not a collection of individuals.
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 02:38:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 21, 2012, 02:15:23 PMCAP is a paramilitary organization.
Is there something that says that? Or is that just your opinion?
There's nothing inherient about professionalism that is unique to military. We can be sharp, be professional and be good - and not be military.
We can also get the job done, be extrememly proficient and excellent at what we do and look like a duffle bag. I've been in both types of organizations. I know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.
I don't advocate looking sloppy, but I put mission effectiveness and results ahead of appearance. In the end, if you deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like. Also, if you don't deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like.
I hestitate to use a TV show as an example, but M*A*S*H comes to mind. The best doctors were the ones who hated the military the most.
Did I just date myself?
As much as I find mash funny; it is a slap on the face of the military. It has the the three unmilitary captains as the only competent people. Everyone else is a hypocrite or incompetent. Mash could have gone the other way if the writers wanted to. Even the real doctors of Korean War mash's said it was not portrayed remotely accurately.
What is this board's facination with uniforms? Sheesh....
My premise was a simple question and observation. What happens if the people you're leading don't want to play the same game you're playing? Namely, in this example, what happens if SMs are told they must do close order drill?
I recognize that different people have different viewpoints of what paramilitary should mean. I will note that acting or being more military has nothing to do with professionalism or with getting our job done.
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 02:38:01 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 21, 2012, 02:15:23 PMCAP is a paramilitary organization.
Is there something that says that? Or is that just your opinion?
There's nothing inherient about professionalism that is unique to military. We can be sharp, be professional and be good - and not be military.
We can also get the job done, be extrememly proficient and excellent at what we do and look like a duffle bag. I've been in both types of organizations. I know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.
I don't advocate looking sloppy, but I put mission effectiveness and results ahead of appearance. In the end, if you deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like. Also, if you don't deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like.
I hestitate to use a TV show as an example, but M*A*S*H comes to mind. The best doctors were the ones who hated the military the most.
Did I just date myself?
So, our example that we're using to discuss professionalism in a non-paramilitary environment is a fictional military comedy produced during the Vietnam War (and post-war years) that was a deliberate jab at all things military? For all of my enjoyment of M*A*S*H (in all of its incarnations), I do not think that this would be my first example of non-military professionalism. In fact, I wouldn't reach to the television at all, and would instead go to some non-military aid workers in Africa, who save people daily with quiet professionalism and are unburdened by wearing a uniform or drill and ceremonies.
This is not the model that the Civil Air Patrol has chosen, for better or for worse. We have chosen a model that mirrors a military organization, with uniforms and marching. We have chosen a model that teaches young people the value of teamwork and unity through those very concepts, while also conveying respect for authority by utilizing an authoritarian military structure. I'm not sure how many flying clubs nation-wide are organized into wings, groups and squadrons (Warbirds? CFA? Maybe?) with an individual commander at each echelon, but we certainly are.
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 05:31:23 PM
My premise was a simple question and observation. What happens if the people you're leading don't want to play the same game you're playing? Namely, in this example, what happens if SMs are told they must do close order drill?
If the unit CC decides that D&C are important to the efficacy of the unit, then the member has two options, comply or find another unit.
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 05:31:23 PM
I recognize that different people have different viewpoints of what paramilitary should mean. I will note that acting or being more military has nothing to do with professionalism or with getting our job done.
Professionalism comes in many forms, but generally denotes the accomplishment of an organization's (or individual's) duties and goals in a structured and serious manner that shows an attention beyond superficial involvement. It has little to do with a clock, even less to do with compensation, and everything to do with attitude. In CAP, a component of the expectation of the membership is to comport themselves in a manner which shines positive light on themselves, the organization, and the military.
In terms of accomplishing our mission, the military bearing, appearance, and attitude of our membership directly reflects upon, and impacts our ability to perform our missions, especially ES and the cadet program. They are an essential and non-optional component, and those members who chose to see otherwise swim against the tide for most of their CAP experience.
CAP is a paramilitary auxiliary of the United States Air Force. Why anyone would join, and then try and argue that point, or the inherent expectations
of the organization, never ceases to amaze me.
Quote from: bflynnI know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.
I'm sorry, we are definately going to have to agree to disagree there. My experience int he IT field (where there are a lot of people who are sloppy but supposedly super-smart and good at what they do if you listen to movies) is completely inaccurate. The most effective people in any industry are the ones who *care* about what they are doing enough to outwardly project the quality of their work through their appearance. While some of the best teams of people I have worked with were pierced, tattood or both - they were also meticulous about their appearance and it reflected in their work. If a person doesn't care about their appearance or doesn't put "energy" in to their appearance I have found that whlie they may be smart, and they may be effective at doing the things that interest them - that same level of effort is not applied across the entire project or thing they are delivering.
I have found that people that are good at things that don't put the same effort into their appearance as their work are generally not team players as well. They don't put energy in to their appearance because they subconsciously (or sometimes outwardly) think they are better than the rest of their team and don't have to impress anyone.
As has been stated many times - and I absolutely agree - CAP is a paramilitary corporation, sponsored by and affiliated with the US Military, under the per-view of the Board of Governors and at times the US Secretary of the Air Force. Does this not demand that we are at least held accountable to *some* of the things that an active duty or reserve military person would be held to?
If that weren't an important aspect of the organization the BSA would probably be used for SAR as much or more than CAP (and we would still have to go find the lost boy scouts)
Anyhow, it feels like this thread has taken a whole new direction.
My summary of this thread is as follows:
1) Senior Members should *NOT* take a direct role in training cadets
2) Senior Members in Cadet Squadrons should at least be able to demonstrate the basics of drill
3) If in Uniform, Senior Members should be held to the same (or higher) standards as the Cadets
4) Leadership Officer should ensure that the Cadet Officers are properly prepared to teach D&C to their subordinates
My plan of attack:
1) Senior Members in Uniform should be inspected during inspection
2) I will work with the C/Officers and fill out the missing Cadet Leadership Positions (We currently have no assigned Element Leaders)
3) Set up Color Guard and Drill Team practice outside of normal meeting hours
4) Ensure Senior Members understand and are able to perform basic Drill (Ranks, Marching, Right/Left/About Face)
5) Reach out to local MTI to see if they can come speak to squadron on the importance of D&C
6) Design games for Elements and Flights to demonstrate their D&C skills
3)
I don't hear anyone, including me, arguing that CAP is not the Air Force Auxiliary. What we disagree on is what that means. How much military is there in paramilitary. It isn't defined or called for in our charter from Congress, so whatever there is is invented by members.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 21, 2012, 06:12:13 PM
If the unit CC decides that D&C are important to the efficacy of the unit, then the member has two options, comply or find another unit.
Actually, that's not the only two options. The member can stick stick around and be disgruntled, bring morale down and impact the effectiveness of the unit. And it's very possible that the commander will never know how it's happening, they'll just know that the unit is falling apart around them. Or that if they do figure it out, then they 2-B the member, they find that morale has fallen even further.
Option four is passive aggressive behavior - to do the drill, but do it poorly and just be incompentent at it. It becomes a pain to do drill and everyone, including the commander, probably hate it. Unless you think it's an offense to just be bad at something.
I'm sure there's an option five, perhaps to recruit others to leave the unit so that the command has no one lef to create a formation out of.
So comply or get out is not the only choices. Because you can't force volunteers to do something that they're not already committed to.
At a time when I see members leaving because they're just tired of the grind, adding more grind to it is probably a bad idea.
Mr. Flynn, M*A*S*H is not a good example, for several reasons.
It was anti-war. Not so much anti-military, but certainly anti-war.
It was in a war zone, in the 1950s, much different from conditions today.
Hawkeye, Trapper John, and BJ succeeded because of their dedication to being doctors in that war zone. Doctors are a different breed. There were similar antics on the show "China Beach", which folks who were there say was closer to reality.
They were drafted, which adds another whole layer. There is no draft today, nor is there likely to be any draftees remaining on AD today.
The M*A*S*H attitude (be the best there is at your job, and call your own shots otherwise) doesn't really work for very long, especially outside the war zone. I gave it a try during my first enlistment, and it lasted about 18 months. I worked with folks who had been to Viet Nam, and they passed on tales of similar antics over there, but also decided that it didn't work in the US, 8600 miles from the war.
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 21, 2012, 07:22:08 PM
Quote from: bflynnI know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.
I'm sorry, we are definately going to have to agree to disagree there.
I was talking about military units I've been a member of as examples. I'm reporting my history, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 21, 2012, 07:28:33 PMIt was anti-war.
Is there anyone who is pro-war? Or anyone who ISN'T anti-war?
I think we are a bit off topic here gents. :-\
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 07:30:02 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 21, 2012, 07:28:33 PMIt was anti-war.
Is there anyone who is pro-war? Or anyone who ISN'T anti-war?
Yes, and yes.
Read some history books about the late '50s, and '60s, and you'll see all kinds of folks who were more than happy to promote the goings-on in Viet Nam.
For Senior Members wearing the AF style uniform, basic courtesies and items such as "Attention", "Present Arms" and when to salute should be known. However all SMs are not required to form ranks or march.
For cadets, depending on how many *active cadets you have, setting up a squadron drill team is a lot harder then it sounds. I have a large squadron, but it's far easier to set up a group wide drill team then it is for a squadron drill team (again depends on your circumstances). Color guards, with the smaller amount of people involved (4 cadets) are easier to form than drill teams. In both cases especially for a large drill team, setting a regular meeting time outside of regular meetings is easier said than done.
Any case, if there is only one of you doing this plan of attack, one step at a time, or you're going to burn yourself out.
From the Free Online Dictionary:
par·a·mil·i·tar·y (pr-ml-tr)
adj.
Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops.
n. pl. par·a·mil·i·tar·ies
A member of a paramilitary force.
paramilitary [ˌpærəˈmɪlɪtərɪ -trɪ]
adj
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) denoting or relating to a group of personnel with military structure functioning either as a civil force or in support of military forces
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) denoting or relating to a force with military structure conducting armed operations against a ruling or occupying power
n
(Government, Politics & Diplomacy)
a. a paramilitary force
b. a member of such a force
Underlining mine.
Police officers learn drill (I used to live not far from a state police academy, and I used to see their bullet-headed recruits now and then), as do agencies like the Border Patrol. They don't use it all the time, but they know how to do it.
In my first squadron you couldn't pass Level I until you learned customs and courtesies (from memory), facing stances and proper saluting.
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 21, 2012, 07:22:08 PM
My summary of this thread is as follows:
1) Senior Members should *NOT* take a direct role in training cadets
2) Senior Members in Cadet Squadrons should at least be able to demonstrate the basics of drill
3) If in Uniform, Senior Members should be held to the same (or higher) standards as the Cadets
4) Leadership Officer should ensure that the Cadet Officers are properly prepared to teach D&C to their subordinates
I don't have any issue with anything else you said, but what's that about?
Of course they should and do...
Quote from: Eclipse
I don't have any issue with anything else you said, but what's that about?
Of course they should and do...
sorry - I mean training them specifically in Drill - the Cadet Officers should be the ones training the Cadets
My role will be to aid in this process where needed - ie if the Cadet Officer doesn't understand how to correctly perform a move, help them or show them. Also evaluating individual members and leaders on performance and informally offering advice where and if needed.
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 21, 2012, 08:17:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse
I don't have any issue with anything else you said, but what's that about?
Of course they should and do...
sorry - I mean training them specifically in Drill - the Cadet Officers should be the ones training the Cadets
My role will be to aid in this process where needed - ie if the Cadet Officer doesn't understand how to correctly perform a move, help them or show them. Also evaluating individual members and leaders on performance and informally offering advice where and if needed.
What about the Senior Leadership Officer? Does it not say that s/he is over D&C? I think different seniors will do it different ways. As long as the job is done correctly and no one is upset with the way the unit runs it, then no problem.
Quote from: Cool Mace on May 21, 2012, 09:44:08 PM
What about the Senior Leadership Officer? Does it not say that s/he is over D&C? I think different seniors will do it different ways. As long as the job is done correctly and no one is upset with the way the unit runs it, then no problem.
That is precisely what it says - however, the Leadership Officer doesn't issue drill orders to the squadron (for purposes of teaching drill) - the exception, and one I plan on using as an instructional tool is to use AT YOUR COMMAND, <thing> COMMAND
I believe the appropriate command is "by my command".
That is if I want to mass command - which may be the case in some situations, in most situations I want the Flight Sgts to command their flights. An example --
Me: BY YOUR COMMAND, Call the flight to ATTENTION, COMMAND
FS: Flight, ATTENTION
Me: Have the Flight Right FACE, COMMAND
FS: Right FASE
Me: Have the Flight MARCH forward
FS: Forward, MARCH
Me: Halt the Flight, COMMAND
FS: Flight, HALT
Me: AT MY COMMAND, Parade REST
Me: FALL OUT
The really cool thing about doing this is that it doesn't take the command away from the Flight Sgts -- but it allows me to have the entire Squadron perform a set of commands that I would like to see. This is also (vets and active duty, correct me if I am wrong) the "correct" way to command the squadron in formal situations.
BY YOUR COMMAND, COMMAND - Starts Mass Commands - Commands are given down the chain of command and executed by the flight or element (depending on the command) when the Flight Sgt. issues the command, not when I do.
AT MY COMMAND - Ends Mass Command - Commands are executed as they are given by me (or whoever has command at that point)
I am pretty sure there is no such thing as "BY YOUR COMMAND" (unless, of course you are a Cylon ;D).
"AT YOUR COMMAND" and "AT MY COMMAND" are indeed used to start and end Mass Commands, but it doesn't work the way you are describing.
I'm pretty sure in the manual there is no at my or your command anywhere. The term would be by my command to assume command of the formation.
AFMAN 36-2203:
Quote2.6. Mass Commands:
2.6.1. Mass commands help develop confidence, self-reliance, assertiveness, and enthusiasm by making the individual recall, give, and execute the proper commands. Mass commands are usually confined to simple movements with short preparatory commands and commands of execution executed simultaneously by all elements of a unit.
2.6.2. Each person is required to give commands in unison with others as if that person alone were giving commands to the entire element. The volume of the combined voices encourages every person to perform the movement with snap and precision.
2.6.3. When the instructor wants to conduct drill by mass commands, the command is AT YOUR COMMAND. For each exercise and cadence drill, the instructor announces the movement to be executed and commands the element COMMAND. Personnel then give the commands and execute them in unison.
2.6.4. The following are examples of mass commands:
Instructor: AT YOUR COMMAND, Call the Flight to Attention, COMMAND.
Mass: Flight, ATTENTION.
Instructor:Have the Flight Stand at Parade Rest, COMMAND.
Mass: Parade, REST.
Instructor:March the Flight Forward, COMMAND.
Mass: Forward, MARCH.
Instructor:Halt the Flight, COMMAND.
Mass: Flight, HALT.
2.6.5. When desiring to end mass commands, the instructor commands AT MY COMMAND.
You sir, are correct - apologies. It is AT YOUR COMMAND. And I misunderstood how it works (I honestly didn't know about this until today)
Instructor: AT YOUR COMMAND, Right FACE
Everyone: Right, FACE
I like that even better!
Thanks for calling me out on this - that is why I am studying up!
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 22, 2012, 12:34:37 AM
I'm pretty sure in the manual there is no at my or your command anywhere. The term would be by my command to assume command of the formation.
False, there is no such thing as "by my command" to assume command of a formation, that is a drill myth/legend.
There is "at my command" which is used to revoke the state of mass commands (as noted above)
There is also no "by your command", we aren't at war with the cylons just yet...
Yep open mouth insert foot.
Quote from: coudano on May 22, 2012, 01:01:38 AM
we aren't at war with the cylons just yet...
Maybe you aren't at war with the cylons....
As a senior member, I *directly* teach my cadet NCO's how to teach, evaluate, and correct drill, of their assigned airmen. The NCO's should have already mastered the /execution/ of basic drill before ever putting on C/SSgt. We don't pass them for their milestone review board if they haven't. (sometimes they get it together and then regress, but they certainly had it together at least once, before we put that fourth stripe on them)
We teach these skills in our NCO Academy, held for cadets who have earned C/SrA or the WBA, but ideally before they take the first test to advance to C/TSgt.
We use mass commands at NCOA, as a tool to help the NCO's develop their command voice. It happens first, before we put them out in front of a flight of NCOA attendees and let them drive solo.
If i'm the senior member monitoring drill, and one of my NCO's is flailing trying to lead, or command, then I might step in and provide advice, pointers, or even corrections to that C/NCO. CERTAINLY preventative measures for safety (don't march your flight into oncoming traffic). What I will not do is directly correct an airman in the flight. Instead i'll notice that airman snuffy has jacked up, and start nagging at my NCO in command of the flight
"why is your airman wrong"
"why haven't you noticed your airman is wrong"
"why haven't you made an on the spot correction yet"
"why is it taking you so long to figure out what to do next"
"why are you leaving your airmen at attention while you sort out your thoughts"
"do you remember when you were an airman in the flight? did you like standing at attention for 5 minutes while the guy in charge tried to figure out what to do next? no, you didn't like that??? then don't do it to them..."
Sometimes, to make the point, I will walk into the flight, make an on the spot correction on an airman (demonstrating what the NCO's ought to be doing), and then turn around and ask the cadet NCO in charge, why i'm doing his job instead of him. I try to get them to understand that they should be so all over their business that there is no /opportunity/ for someone else to interject in their flight. That's the level of vigilance i'm looking for out of my C/NCO's. Once they start to get it, they will see me hoovering and immediately go into checking their flight over, sometimes even go put themselves physically between me and the flight to prevent me from getting in to make a correction (and then getting there first). NCO's protecting their troops from nonsense from up the chain of command, nyeh. It is at this point that i cross my arms and give one of those sneering grins like the sensei at cobra kai dojo. No mercy!
I directly interact even more with cadet officers, whom are conducting staff duties, writing SDA's, handling administrative and operational details of the squadron, and planning and executing upcoming squadron activities (or debriefing ones that just ended). Indeed, my squadron only spends at most 20 minutes a meeting at the drill pad, including inspection (zero, on pt night). So that just isn't a huge fraction of what we do; thus it's important to use it well.
Moral of the story, there is plenty of direct interaction to be had between senior members and cadets.
But it's always in a mentor / instructor role to the cadet staff.
Where I think most senior members go wrong (and imho it's a stage that all of us grow through), is in assuming the role of a C/NCO or a C/Officer themselves, and stepping into that role (effectively pushing the cadets that SHOULD BE doing that job, to the side). That stinks, because not only should the senior member not be doing that; it is also cheating the C/NCO that got pushed aside out of their chance to gain experience in their core competency; AND it sends the wrong message / example to the junior cadets, that when they get to that rank they should expect to stand aside while the senior members do everything (dead wrong). There simply aren't enough training hours in the year to waste time like that...
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 05:31:23 PM
My premise was a simple question and observation. What happens if the people you're leading don't want to play the same game you're playing? Namely, in this example, what happens if SMs are told they must do close order drill?
The bottom line, bflynn, is that in CAP nobody can make you do anything. Some things aren't required in regulations. So yes, it's true that nobody can make you learn basic drill movements. It's also true that if you don't want to, you don't have to bother learn virtually anything at all in CAP. For example, you don't have to learn a thing about cadet programs or even enroll in the specialty track to serve in a cadet programs-related duty assignment. But guess what? I know if I (along with probably most other SMs) were your commander, and you didn't have interest in learning key facets of a particular mission or aspect of CAP, I'd either find a different duty assignment that better met your interests or, failing to find something you
did have an interest in mastering, I'd suggest that CAP isn't for you at this time.
Just because the only thing CAP requires, by regulation, is that you complete Level I to serve in most duty assignments doesn't mean that many commanders would keep you around if you only did the bare minimum and didn't want to learn things that aren't required by regulation but are key factors to doing a particular job.
Is knowing basic drill a key component to being a senior member? That depends I'd say on a few factors, but in certain duty assignments (cadet programs in particular) I'd say a basic knowledge is critical knowledge. But even outside of cadet programs, it sure would help a member (and by extension Civil Air Patrol as a whole) to not look like a soup-sandwich when they report to their commander at a conference or event to accept an award or promotion, or get their graduation certificate at a PD seminar graduation, or when they have to unexpectedly fill in for the deputy commander for cadets at the cadets' closing formation because the DCC is out of town, or when on a military installation in uniform for a CAP function and colors sounds.
cuodano -
That is sound advice and I agree with most everything you said. As has been said many times, there is no such thing as a cookie cutter squadron and I am sure it will take me a month or two to learn the ropes and get the program really where the rest of the staff wants it to be. Right now we spend about the same 20 minutes drilling at the beginning of the meeting, then after the activities we will do some more drill if time allows. The cadets really enjoy drill so I think the concept is that we allow them to do it as much as possible - we just need to get them all on the same page.
Thank you for your insight Sir!
Quote from: Pylon on May 22, 2012, 02:02:07 AM
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 05:31:23 PM
My premise was a simple question and observation. What happens if the people you're leading don't want to play the same game you're playing? Namely, in this example, what happens if SMs are told they must do close order drill?
The bottom line, bflynn, is that in CAP nobody can make you do anything. Some things aren't required in regulations.
Yes, that's the point I've been trying to say. But the question isn't really just about drill, it's about the bigger picture. There are those who disagree with how much military there is in paramilitary. When you push for things that others disagree with, you harm unit cohesiveness. I don't get the sense that people recognize that.
There is a fine line between leading and following. You can only insist on a little more than the volunteers want to do - any more and you're destroying volunteer energy.
What I'm hearing is that some leaders don't recognzie that.
Quote from: bflynn on May 21, 2012, 07:30:02 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 21, 2012, 07:28:33 PMIt was anti-war.
Is there anyone who is pro-war? Or anyone who ISN'T anti-war?
All we are saying is...GIVE WAR a CHANCE! >:D Just kidding....I could not resist it.
Quote from: bflynn on May 22, 2012, 03:46:16 AMYes, that's the point I've been trying to say. But the question isn't really just about drill, it's about the bigger picture. There are those who disagree with how much military there is in paramilitary. When you push for things that others disagree with, you harm unit cohesiveness. I don't get the sense that people recognize that.
There is a fine line between leading and following. You can only insist on a little more than the volunteers want to do - any more and you're destroying volunteer energy.
What I'm hearing is that some leaders don't recognzie that.
I disagree.....I think most sucessful leaders in CAP understand that very well. We get it rubbed into our faces all the time.
Everytime we try to make a rule change (add IS100 requirments to ES, Safety Currency). Just tyring to get a uniform change......heck defining the bloody thing. Good thing RM is not on this thread! He would be blowing a gasket right now any.
Well....all I have got to say....is that the one thing that makes CAP different then the military.....is that you can always quit CAP anytime you choose. In that way it makes it almost exactly like any other volunteer organisation and most employment situations. You don't like your job at Mc Donalds......well then quit and go work for someone else.
Now I am all for making nice to our volunteers....but there is a line there somewhere. There is a point where we just have to say......sorry you don't want to drill/do safety training/get your IS 400/wear your unifrom properly.......please go play somewhere else.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 22, 2012, 05:29:45 AM
Quote from: bflynn on May 22, 2012, 03:46:16 AMYes, that's the point I've been trying to say. But the question isn't really just about drill, it's about the bigger picture. There are those who disagree with how much military there is in paramilitary. When you push for things that others disagree with, you harm unit cohesiveness. I don't get the sense that people recognize that.
There is a fine line between leading and following. You can only insist on a little more than the volunteers want to do - any more and you're destroying volunteer energy.
What I'm hearing is that some leaders don't recognzie that.
I disagree.....I think most sucessful leaders in CAP understand that very well. We get it rubbed into our faces all the time.
Everytime we try to make a rule change (add IS100 requirments to ES, Safety Currency). Just tyring to get a uniform change......heck defining the bloody thing. Good thing RM is not on this thread! He would be blowing a gasket right now any.
Well....all I have got to say....is that the one thing that makes CAP different then the military.....is that you can always quit CAP anytime you choose. In that way it makes it almost exactly like any other volunteer organisation and most employment situations. You don't like your job at Mc Donalds......well then quit and go work for someone else.
Now I am all for making nice to our volunteers....but there is a line there somewhere. There is a point where we just have to say......sorry you don't want to drill/do safety training/get your IS 400/wear your unifrom properly.......please go play somewhere else.
I think we're saying the same thing - I say some leaders don't get it, you say successful commanders do. I agree on both counts.
There is a line in there, it's a balancing act. Which is why I point out that there's disagreement about how much military there is in paramilitary; that is also part of the balancing act. That military balance point is different between the cadet and SM programs.
This might be obvious to some, but I'm sure there are also others who need to hear it explicitly.
Quote from: bflynn on May 22, 2012, 02:28:55 PMThat military balance point is different between the cadet and SM programs.
It's not supposed to be.
That issue is one of the reasons that many senior members lose credibility in the eyes of both cadets and people outside the organization.
This idea that some parts of the program "don't apply to me..." is an "You can't, I won't, you can't make me attitude." that exists in some members
who think they "know better" and that some how their baseline contribution to the program (i.e. you're lucky I showed up at all) as a "
Volunteer" trumps their need to do anything but what they feel like.
Most members join to be part of something larger than themselves, with expectations that are higher then their regular grind. People who can't be bothered or are "above" the paramilitary aspects degrade both the experience, and the effectiveness for everyone, and then wear it as a badge to be proud of.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 22, 2012, 02:39:08 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 22, 2012, 02:28:55 PMThat military balance point is different between the cadet and SM programs.
It's not supposed to be.
That issue is one of the reasons that many senior members lose credibility in the eyes of both cadets and people outside the organization.
Well, the reality is that it IS. When we have a problem, we need to deal with reality, not a wish of what we want.
I don't think CAP loses credibility with others outside CAP because we're not military enough...they don't care if we're military or not. We lose credibility because we don't perform the missions well enough or because we don't act professionally as pilots. We lose credibility when people are playing in an exercise and don't react to an actual emergency happening right under them. We lose credibility when people get too militant and try to regulate the public.
The public in general doesn't like military ordering them around. I think that extends to our senior members.
There are plenty of other worthwhile organizations that don't have a paramilitary structure that can use your help.
Joining a book club and then complaining about all the discussions about reading serves no one.
You're mistaking my intent - I'm not complaining, I'm disagreeing with you. If the general membership wanted us to be more military, we would be. They don't and we aren't. That makes what is "supposed to be" just the wish of a few people.
I'm relatively happy with what CAP is and what I can do for us...I'm not going anywhere.
Quote from: bflynn on May 22, 2012, 03:13:55 PM
I don't think CAP loses credibility with others outside CAP because we're not military enough...they don't care if we're military or not.
I disagree. CAP members are frequently on military installations and around military personnel for meetings (at units that meet on bases), professional development events, encampments, mil orientation flights, air shows, parades and memorial services, and other public events. If CAP members are walking around in uniform and don't understand basic military bearing, basic military discipline, basic military drill -- it shows and reflects upon the whole organization, in a poor way.
It doesn't matter if some members "want to" or not. It is still a part of doing the job right. There are plenty of people who don't
want to do a lot of things, and that may very well make them a bad fit for the organization or their particular duty. I may not
want to do safety briefings all the time, but if I want to be a part of Civil Air Patrol I suck it up and do them. If you don't want to learn basic drill and military customs, don't wear the military style uniforms and don't participate in cadet programs.
Examples of situations that understanding basic military drill and customs would matter, and having basic discipline would instill the members to act accordingly:
--CAP members (in uniform) are on base and walk past the base colors -- should they salute? Do they know if they should?
--CAP members (in uniform) are at a parade and a military color guard processes past -- do they stand at attention? do they salute? what if there are a group of SM's standing around, then what?
--CAP members (in uniform) are on base for a CAP event, outside. They hear a loud bugle call. Military personnel stop what they're doing. Can they identify the bugle call? Do they know what they should do? Do they know they're supposed to stand at attention and salute the direction of the music or a visible American flag? Do they know which bugle call to hold the salute and POA until? Do they know what to do if there's a group?
--CAP members (in uniform) are at a sporting event for a recruiting booth, alongside military personnel. The national anthem plays. Do the SM's know what to do? What about when the Air Force song plays? Or another branch's hymn? Can they recognize the tune and know that it's a service song and not just a patriotic organ ditty?
These are all examples of situations where, if CAP members took the time to learn basic knowledge in military discipline and drill, they would react and behave in a manner which credits Civil Air Patrol's image and credibility as an organization. On the other hand, these are also situations where CAP members who don't know what to do, or who do the wrong thing, can quickly bring discredit upon the organization.
Contrary to what you suggest, it is not just mission capabilities which matter.
I think we just went through everything that you just wrote.
The simple truth is, CAP (SMs) cannot be a more military organization because members won't support it. I suppose everyone else could just get up and go somewhere else. But who would do the work then?
Quote
CAP members are expected to follow the
traditions, standards, customs, and courtesies
agreed to and accepted by the USAF and CAP.
To do so reflects pride in CAP and the level of
professionalism CAP demonstrates to its
customers, to its Air Force partners, and to the
communities where its members serve and live.
Customs and courtesies show mutual respect
and create a sense of fraternity among
military members and CAP members.
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Customs_DFE2708A12EA7.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Customs_DFE2708A12EA7.pdf)
Yes, yes. But the point is about the depth of military, not the framework of having it.
Don't misunderstand my analysis for a complaint.
Then again, if CAP doesn't meet your desired depth for military involvement, there are other organizations that do - you're welcome to join them to satisfy yourself >:D ;D
I think I'm done - I think we've exhausted this unless anyone else has something new to add.
Quote from: bflynn on May 22, 2012, 03:47:16 PM
The simple truth is, CAP (SMs) cannot be a more military organization because members won't support it. I suppose everyone else could just get up and go somewhere else. But who would do the work then?
You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. Maybe members of your
flying club squadron won't support it, but that doesn't make it true everywhere. Maybe the members of the OPs squadron will absolutely support it.
Quote from: bflynn on May 22, 2012, 04:12:28 PM
Yes, yes. But the point is about the depth of military, not the framework of having it.
Don't misunderstand my analysis for a complaint.
Then again, if CAP doesn't meet your desired depth for military involvement, there are other organizations that do - you're welcome to join them to satisfy yourself >:D ;D
I think I'm done - I think we've exhausted this unless anyone else has something new to add.
He's a Marine. I know that several are former military, so we get that or we had it.
Quote from: bflynn on May 22, 2012, 03:33:55 PM
You're mistaking my intent - I'm not complaining, I'm disagreeing with you. If the general membership wanted us to be more military, we would be. They don't and we aren't. That makes what is "supposed to be" just the wish of a few people.
I'm relatively happy with what CAP is and what I can do for us...I'm not going anywhere.
Why do you assume when you say something incorrect that we are misunderstanding you?
We know exactly what you're saying, it's wrong, and part of the problem. Whether >you< are comfortable with your contribution is only part of the issue. Your contribution also has to be aligned with the commander and others in authority for it to be of full value. This idea of self actualization being the end of the conversation is also part of the problem.
You have no idea what the membership will support outside your personal scope, but many of us here who are fully engaged in all facets of the organization and have relevant experience in its leadership, know all too well what the real challenges and problems are, and the idea that members can pick and choose what they want to adhere to and discard the rest may not be the #1 problem, but it's in the top 5.
This is not a problem unique to Civil Air Patrol - this is a problem for just about every volunteer scenario I have been involved with. Eclipse is right on here, IMHO as someone with a lot of experience in Volunteer Orgs but new to CAP.
Quote from: Pylon on May 22, 2012, 03:39:12 PM
Examples of situations that understanding basic military drill and customs would matter, and having basic discipline would instill the members to act accordingly:
--CAP members (in uniform) are on base and walk past the base colors -- should they salute? Do they know if they should?
--CAP members (in uniform) are at a parade and a military color guard processes past -- do they stand at attention? do they salute? what if there are a group of SM's standing around, then what?
--CAP members (in uniform) are on base for a CAP event, outside. They hear a loud bugle call. Military personnel stop what they're doing. Can they identify the bugle call? Do they know what they should do? Do they know they're supposed to stand at attention and salute the direction of the music or a visible American flag? Do they know which bugle call to hold the salute and POA until? Do they know what to do if there's a group?
--CAP members (in uniform) are at a sporting event for a recruiting booth, alongside military personnel. The national anthem plays. Do the SM's know what to do? What about when the Air Force song plays? Or another branch's hymn? Can they recognize the tune and know that it's a service song and not just a patriotic organ ditty?
All very good examples. My first squadron, as part of its Level I training, covered most of these situations. I don't know how it is now, but if a CAP member was on a military base back then (early '90s) and "Retreat" sounded, or you passed an officer's car with licence plate showing rank and didn't salute, you'd get called on it.
However, one negative experience I had was from a military officer at an airshow. He was a Navy Lieutenant and I was a 2nd Lieutenant. I called him "sir" and he read me the riot act:
"Don't call me 'sir'. You guys are not military, you just help out the Air Force."
I could have told him to take his attitude and stuff it up an afterburner but didn't. I just walked away and left Tom Cruise to stoke his ego.
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 16, 2012, 09:14:04 PM
I am also training a team for CyberPatriot next year, so watch out! :)
Since we are all off topic here...See you there sir. :)
Quote from: Eclipse on May 22, 2012, 07:50:54 PM
Why do you assume when you say something incorrect that we are misunderstanding you?
Probably because it's incomprehensible to me how you can be right and everyone else is wrong.
But this is not new, if you have something else, let me know...you can PM me if you like or just post.
Quote from: bflynn on May 23, 2012, 02:05:24 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 22, 2012, 07:50:54 PM
Why do you assume when you say something incorrect that we are misunderstanding you?
Probably because it's incomprehensible to me how you can be right and everyone else is wrong.
An interesting point, except that I'm not the only one who has issues with your assertions in this thread.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2012, 01:43:37 PM
An interesting point, except that I'm not the only one who has issues with your assertions in this thread.
Again, nothing new.
My assertion is that we're not more military because most members don't want it. If you don't like that, that's fine, I understand that you want us to be more military. Your personal desires and the desires of others around you do not except you from the realities of the situation you're dealing with.
I do not make my assertion because that's how I want it to be, I make it because that's what I see. You can have issue with it if you like, but I'll still say the truth as I see it. Do you disagree that this is the way it is? You've said I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that was directed at me personally and not the situation.
BTW, my contributions to CAP are very much in line with what I'm told are CAP priorities by my squadron commander, wing commander, region commander and national commander.
Quote from: bflynn on May 23, 2012, 02:43:48 PM
My assertion is that we're not more military because most members don't want it.
Opinion noted.
Quote from: bflynn on May 23, 2012, 02:43:48 PMI do not make my assertion because that's how I want it to be, I make it because that's what I see.
In your small corner of CAP maybe.
Quote from: bflynn on May 23, 2012, 02:43:48 PMDo you disagree that this is the way it is?
Most everyone that has posted in this thread aside from you disagrees with this.
Quote from: jeders on May 23, 2012, 03:47:35 PMMost everyone that has posted in this thread aside from you disagrees with this.
They disagree that we are not more military because the members don't agree to it?
Then please add to it, because I thought I understood why. If I'm wrong about what's happening, I'm open to hearing about it.
Quote from: jeders on May 22, 2012, 04:14:55 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 22, 2012, 03:47:16 PM
The simple truth is, CAP (SMs) cannot be a more military organization because members won't support it. I suppose everyone else could just get up and go somewhere else. But who would do the work then?
Maybe members of your flying club squadron won't support it, but that doesn't make it true everywhere.
Oh, wait a minute, I see. You're having a different discussion than I am.
I'm talking about level and depth of military involvement. We all agree to a certain level. Enough people disagree about it being
more military, so it is not
more military.
I've ephasized the word more there twice. I'm drawing an observation about the level and a somewhat self-proving statement. If members supported us being more military, it would happen. It does not happen, therefore members must not support it. If senior members wanted to do drill, then we would drill. If we wanted to get up at 5am and do PT, then it would happen.
If someone has a personal wish that we do these things, then they need to convince the membership at large that it is valuable...although I don't know what that value could be.
I think you are assuming that CAP functions more democratically than it actually does. Just because we don't do something doesn't mean the majority of the members don't want to do it.
No, there's no democracy to it.
If you read back through the thread, you'd see that I was recognizing the volunteer aspect of CAP and basically saying that you can only push volunteers so far before they give up on you.
I think the shark got jumped somewhere around page 4 on this one.
Quote from: johnnyb47 on May 23, 2012, 08:09:20 PM
I think the shark got jumped somewhere around page 4 on this one.
If not before.
This thread, like so many, uniform or otherwise, illustrates the division in CAP between those who long for the former days of CAP, when we
were "more military" (whatever construction you want to put on that term is up to you) and those on the corporatist side today, who largely see the "military" aspect as "cadets only" and seniors as "ES/flying/ES/flying/ES/flying" and don't want to be bothered with all the paramilitary aspects: "just gimme my golf shirt and grey slacks." As well, they tend to want to leave AE to the cadet side.
I wonder if those divisions are becoming irreconcilable. CT is CT and people here (myself included) have their "unique" :-X personalities, but really we on CT are a semi-random sampling of CAP opinions.
I don't think that one's squadron is even as good an indicator as CT is of those opinions. People tend to gravitate to others who think like them. Unless you do what I foolishly did, and spend two years in a
flying club senior squadron as a non-pilot fish-out-of-water, if you don't like the paramilitary aspects of CAP, you'll probably gravitate toward a squadron whose culture is like that, and vice versa. Here on CT there's no shortage of differing opinions, that's for sure...
I think we need to factor in the age of the internet and how readily available CAP gossip was prior to when Al Gore created it.
If not for the web we would know very little about CAP outside of our own squadrons, groups and wings.
Perhaps the division between the groups in CAP only appears to be growing because we have the ability to read about it online. We all know what the regulations say. 25 years ago we had very little idea about how they were being interpreted from one side of the country to the other. Now we can see everyone's opinion on new regs 30 seconds before the reg is even published!
Of course I could be wrong. I'm still kind of new.
Quote from: johnnyb47 on May 23, 2012, 09:39:15 PMIf not for the web we would know very little about CAP outside of our own squadrons, groups and wings.
There's very little the average member
needs to know outside their unit. CAP is not a democracy, and there's not a lot of need for "informed choice" in regards to situations a member has no involvement or input in. If anything, the immediacies of information leads to the TMZ-culture to no real benefit.
It also leads to this culture-wide phenomenon where "everyone and every idea is equal..." which we all know is not remotely the case.
What is happening in your unit, for the most part, is all the average member needs to know - wing at the most, and then only if the wing is providing some
framework and goals outside the standard. If your unit is not involved in something you want to do, or your commander is not a good leader, knowing the latest scoops on NB discussions won't change that situation.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 23, 2012, 09:45:34 PM
Quote from: johnnyb47 on May 23, 2012, 09:39:15 PMIf not for the web we would know very little about CAP outside of our own squadrons, groups and wings.
There's very little the average member needs to know outside their unit. CAP is not a democracy, and there's not a lot of need for "informed choice" in regards to situations a member has no involvement or input in. If anything, the immediacies of information leads to the TMZ-culture to no real benefit.
It also leads to this culture-wide phenomenon where "every and every idea is equal..." which we all no is not remotely the case.
I think you may have taken that a bit out of context, Eclipse. I just meant that, thanks to our friend the "WWW", we now have greater access to information (read: Opinion and conjecture) than ever before.... whether we wanted it or not. :)
Because of
THAT it may seems as though the divide in CAP is growing at an alarming rate.
Once again though, my point is based on what I've seen in my short time as a member.
Roger - roger.
I don't think there's much different today than 20 years ago. I can tell you from experience very little has changed the last ten years.
Quote from: krnlpanick on May 16, 2012, 09:14:04 PM
I will be instructing both Cadets and Sr. Members on proper drill
Wait.. you mean Senior Members will actually drill and practice customs and protocol? :D
Me Likes! We need more of this in my option, remember people! LEAD BY EXAMPLE!
Quote from: BrannG on May 26, 2012, 07:23:56 PM
Wait.. you mean Senior Members will actually drill and practice customs and protocol? :D
Me Likes! We need more of this in my option, remember people! LEAD BY EXAMPLE!
That's kind of where I was headed :)
I'll be interested to hear how this turns out - please keep us informed?
Will do - we have our first D&C focused meeting on 5 June in preparation for a parade we have been asked to participate in on 8 June.
The practice will begin with an inspection by our C/1Sgt observed by the CC and Myself.
I have identified 5 key areas that the cadets need to focus on, my plan is to have each of the element leaders work on each task with their element individually for 5-10 mins each. Once they have made it through each, they will come back and practice as wings for 5-10 minutes using all of the skills the element leaders worked on. Finally, the entire squadron will drill together as a single unit for 5-10 minutes.
While the cadets are working the Seniors will have inspection and we will be reviewing our own drill to make sure we are all sharp for the parade.
I hope to wrap up the meeting with a short 2-3 minute combined drill including the entire squadron, Cadets and Senior Members.
I will come back with a portmortem next Wednesday :)
I'm a big fan of train like you fight.
Going to march in a parade?
Get a long driveway or street, and practice parade marching.
Get a car in front, to prented to be a stupidly slow float. Stopping and going a lot. And going slow.
Put your formation behind it and see how it deals.
Mark Time? Halt?
I always envisioned a really cool thing to do in parades that stop a lot;
have your marching unit 'explode' into little 4 or 6 person elements (like 2x2) and just flank around, to the rear, whatever, and then when the parade starts moving again, get back to where they go and forward march with the parade. Sort of the marching equivalent of a chinese fire drill (though i guess you would get back in the same place you got out). I always thought the crowd would enjoy something like that, possibly impress a few potential recruits.
Never really got around to trying it though...
Can your unit as a whole execute either a 4 element column right/left? depending on the parade route?
Or a right/left turn if you are (probably not, but not impossible) in mass?
Can people stand up on their feet for a half hour without fainting?
That is an awesome idea! Unfortunately, right now I am more concerned about them getting the basics down, keeping cadence, and looking sharp. Also we are marching as an attachment to another squadron so with no time to practice as a joint squadron I wouldn't want to attempt something like that for this run. We will probably have the squadrons go to parade rest when there are delays in the parade, possibly have the Color Guard's do something a little more fancy.
We tried some of that trick marching in the last two weeks of boot - it definately takes a lot of time and practice to make it look good. Ours was called mass confusion. Out of columns of three, everyone marched in different directions for a few steps, then did an about face and came back together. It took a lot of work for us to be able to pull it off.
I'm not sure I'd get a good impression of CAP doing precision marching in a parade - part of the problem with looking more military is that you come across as more militaristic. It's a worry because the better and more military you are, the more you invoke images of military control of civilians and oppression...which is never good. We don't want CAP to be seen as a branch of the government ready to tell civilians what to do, that isn't our job.
Is there a way to take the pulse of how the crowds recieves it? Being on the inside, we really don't know how we're viewed. Maybe pair it up with other CAP members in polo shirts who can do short questions for people right after the unit passes? Hand out flyers with a survey request? If 95% of the people like what the unit does, then it's a good thing, if 95% react negatively then going back to just walking in parades might be a good idea.
Quote from: bflynn on May 31, 2012, 07:48:24 PMI'm not sure I'd get a good impression of CAP doing precision marching in a parade - part of the problem with looking more military is that you come across as more militaristic. It's a worry because the better and more military you are, the more you invoke images of military control of civilians and oppression...which is never good. We don't want CAP to be seen as a branch of the government ready to tell civilians what to do, that isn't our job.
No one with a lick of common sense would see cadets marching in a parade and connect that to thinking CAP is a branch of government that is ready to tell civilians what to do.
They either appreciate it for the effort and discipline, or they go and buy another snow cone. To try and even make the insinuation is ridiculous.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 31, 2012, 08:00:25 PM
No one with a lick of common sense would see cadets marching in a parade and connect that to thinking CAP is a branch of government that is ready to tell civilians what to do.
I don't know - I think that the view from the inside necessarily negates knowing the view from the outside.
But I didn't say that merely marching was the trigger - it is being more military. The more perfect the unit is, the better is it, the worse the impact. It reminds me of films of russian and wwii german units marching in parades; every step perfect, every uniform exactly alike, etc.
I could be wrong. I think neither one of us knows for certain because we're not them.
BFlynn, while I am trying to understand where you are coming from here - I think there is still a severe difference of opinion on the matter, especially as it relates to Cadets. Let's just agree to disagree on this matter for now as it has been debated ad nauseum in this thread already.
That being said, I kind of like the idea of having people in the audience asking what they think - we also have a booth at the festival associated with the parade, so perhaps some questionnaires or good old fashioned talking with people will give us an idea on how we did.
I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with anything - I'm making observations when I see potential problems. Some consider it a fault, some call me a troll for doing it, but it's who I am...I troubleshoot. I look for problems and solutions. It's a significant part of my professional job. I usually try to focus on situations, but sometimes I get dragged down...I'm not perfect.
Sometimes I don't have a solution but I'll write about it anyway...sharing ideas generates more ideas.
Quote from: bflynn on May 31, 2012, 08:26:57 PM
I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with anything - I'm making observations when I see potential problems. Some consider it a fault, some call me a troll for doing it, but it's who I am...I troubleshoot. I look for problems and solutions. It's a significant part of my professional job. I usually try to focus on situations, but sometimes I get dragged down...I'm not perfect.
Sometimes I don't have a solution but I'll write about it anyway...sharing ideas generates more ideas.
Never once have I EVER thought that a unit, military or otherwise, was going to end up oppressing me or anybody else. That includes before I joined cap or the army. Not even in fayett-nam NC. Where dies such a thing come from anyways?
Quote from: bflynn on May 31, 2012, 08:26:57 PMSometimes I don't have a solution but I'll write about it anyway...sharing ideas generates more ideas.
This country has no collective memory of military occupation, nor any reason to fear or disdain the military as your comment implies, therefore your 'idea" appears to be nothing more than a mental reach to try and support an argument which runs counter to one of the tenants of CAP - namely its status as a paramilitary organization which instills discipline and character in its members, especially cadets.
Thanks for your thoughts...
You find potential issues with anything, especially if it's remotely military related.
Quote from: bflynn on May 31, 2012, 07:48:24 PM
We tried some of that trick marching in the last two weeks of boot - it definately takes a lot of time and practice to make it look good. Ours was called mass confusion. Out of columns of three, everyone marched in different directions for a few steps, then did an about face and came back together. It took a lot of work for us to be able to pull it off.
I'm not sure I'd get a good impression of CAP doing precision marching in a parade - part of the problem with looking more military is that you come across as more militaristic. It's a worry because the better and more military you are, the more you invoke images of military control of civilians and oppression...which is never good. We don't want CAP to be seen as a branch of the government ready to tell civilians what to do, that isn't our job.
Is there a way to take the pulse of how the crowds recieves it? Being on the inside, we really don't know how we're viewed. Maybe pair it up with other CAP members in polo shirts who can do short questions for people right after the unit passes? Hand out flyers with a survey request? If 95% of the people like what the unit does, then it's a good thing, if 95% react negatively then going back to just walking in parades might be a good idea.
a) It's not the job of the military either.
b) Too late to try to keep CAP from looking military....I mean the uniforms, ranks, salutes, where our money comes from, the fact that we are the USAF auxillary.........kind of gives it away.
c) People who think that the government is going to use the military to tell them what to do......already hate the CAP...so why bother about those crackpots?
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 31, 2012, 08:53:57 PM
You find potential issues with anything, especially if it's remotely military related.
That's not true at all.
I just talk about issues most. And then I ask questions and continue to ask question / form positions / get reactions so that I can gather data.
Apparently I failed to convey the level of questioning in what I wrote and you took it as my stance.
Quote from: bflynn on June 01, 2012, 12:50:10 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 31, 2012, 08:53:57 PM
You find potential issues with anything, especially if it's remotely military related.
That's not true at all.
I just talk about issues most. And then I ask questions and continue to ask question / form positions / get reactions so that I can gather data.
Apparently I failed to convey the level of questioning in what I wrote and you took it as my stance.
Really, it was suggested a mini exhibition demo during a parade you shot it down as an issue. You feel that military leadership styles are flawed and you claim to be a vet. You mention that you can not force anyone to do anything in the organization and say it's not right when another member says if they do not want to play by the rules you can leave. You feel that any type of practical joke is disrespectful and hazing.
If that is not your "stance" then maybe you need to reconsider your written execution of thoughts and improve your articulation to ensure that "your intended message" gets across as you would like it to be received.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 31, 2012, 09:59:32 PM
Quote from: bflynn on May 31, 2012, 07:48:24 PM
We tried some of that trick marching in the last two weeks of boot - it definately takes a lot of time and practice to make it look good. Ours was called mass confusion. Out of columns of three, everyone marched in different directions for a few steps, then did an about face and came back together. It took a lot of work for us to be able to pull it off.
I'm not sure I'd get a good impression of CAP doing precision marching in a parade - part of the problem with looking more military is that you come across as more militaristic. It's a worry because the better and more military you are, the more you invoke images of military control of civilians and oppression...which is never good. We don't want CAP to be seen as a branch of the government ready to tell civilians what to do, that isn't our job.
Is there a way to take the pulse of how the crowds recieves it? Being on the inside, we really don't know how we're viewed. Maybe pair it up with other CAP members in polo shirts who can do short questions for people right after the unit passes? Hand out flyers with a survey request? If 95% of the people like what the unit does, then it's a good thing, if 95% react negatively then going back to just walking in parades might be a good idea.
a) It's not the job of the military either.
b) Too late to try to keep CAP from looking military....I mean the uniforms, ranks, salutes, where our money comes from, the fact that we are the USAF auxillary.........kind of gives it away.
c) People who think that the government is going to use the military to tell them what to do......already hate the CAP...so why bother about those crackpots?
Wow....As a cadet I went to National Drill Comp 3 times and marched as a Drill Team and a Color Guard in countless parades over the cadet years and never once did the image of the military controlling civilians every come up or cross my mind. Ive only seen cheering and congratulations in crowds during parades. That idea you have is a stretch to say the least.
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 01, 2012, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: bflynn on June 01, 2012, 12:50:10 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on May 31, 2012, 08:53:57 PM
You find potential issues with anything, especially if it's remotely military related.
That's not true at all.
I just talk about issues most. And then I ask questions and continue to ask question / form positions / get reactions so that I can gather data.
Apparently I failed to convey the level of questioning in what I wrote and you took it as my stance.
Really, it was suggested a mini exhibition demo during a parade you shot it down as an issue. You feel that military leadership styles are flawed and you claim to be a vet. You mention that you can not force anyone to do anything in the organization and say it's not right when another member says if they do not want to play by the rules you can leave. You feel that any type of practical joke is disrespectful and hazing.
If that is not your "stance" then maybe you need to reconsider your written execution of thoughts and improve your articulation to ensure that "your intended message" gets across as you would like it to be received.
Ok, you've misunderstood me. As the initiator of the communciations, I accept the fault in not being clear. I always find writing to be a challenge.
It was not my intention to shoot down anything especially as I cannot control anyone - individual liberty is (or used to be) a cornerstone of our society. I saw a concern and expressed that concern, including continuing the conversation to get feedback. Ultimately it is that squadron that will decide if it works for them and I'm looking forward to see if what I believe (but do not know) is correct or incorrect.
I did not say that military style leadership is flawed. Military leadership is great for leading troops into combat. I said that it was flawed to use military style leadership styles in situations when volunteers can walk out the door. In the Navy, if we'd had that option to just leave, there are 100 times over that every member of our crew would have walked away. It's much harder to lead people when you cannot have them flogged for disobeying. Effectively I'm saying that a softer approach is required. There are elements of military leadership that work very well, but you need to recognize which components are present and which are missing.
My observation that people make choices to follow is just an extension of my observiations of using military style leadership plus my believe in invidual liberty. Your power of compelling followership starts and ends with the ability to show someone the door. I consider firing someone (aka 2b) to be the most severe form of leadership failure. Therefore, your power of compelling followership is non-existent. Lacking that power of legal compulsion, you cannot even practice everything that is involved with military leadership except by taking steps that show failed leadership. That's a significant difference that deserves to be highlighted.
Practical jokes and hazing IS disrespectful. I'll allow that if you know someone really well, then maybe you know how they'll react and you can get into playing jokes with them. But what if you're wrong? Different people react differently. Are you ready to bet your reputation on how well you know someone? How would you feel to complete a practical joke only to realize that your target was not only not amused, but that you just destroyed a friendship? Beyond that, it just is not acceptable in the military (or anywhere else) to haze...period, no exceptions. Any military commander that is tolerating it is risking his career.
You're free to disagree with any of these - after all, I cannot control you, I can only influence you into doing what is best for the organization.
Last - I do not claim to be veteran, I am one. Come meet me in NC and I'll show you my DD-214. Out of everything your wrote, this is the only one that I consider to be disrespectful.
I think that is the first tine you have managed to effectively communicate anything.
You want to consider it disrespectful that I challenged your claim be my guest. Your postings indicate something else and I call it like I see it.
And I will disagree that firing someone is an example of failed leadership. Firing, 2bing or which ever term you want to use is a tool plain and simple and there are plenty of violations that warrant that course of action. Sorry but your off base on that and there numerous instances that can be cited.
And we are a paramilitary organization so military leadership has its place in our organization. Is it a catch all cure all no but it is proven to be successful outside of combat.
On the pratical joking and hazing aspect to a degree I will agree with you on but I will disagree that the are one and the same. I joke with those I know and those I know will react to it as is a joke.
And you're right you can't control what I do and if you think about it you can hardly even influence me. I present my thoughts and ideas to my unit all the time if they implement ok if not life goes on.
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 01, 2012, 04:45:10 PMYour postings indicate something else and I call it like I see it.
Am I understanding this correctly? You don't like what I say or how I write, so you question whether I was ever in the military?
Do you realize how completely bizarre that comes across?
On the subject of Military Style Leadership
Quote from: CAP Cadet Oath
I pledge that I will serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program, and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.
Quote from: CAP Senior Member Oath
...
I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of the Civil Air Patrol
...
I really don't think it can be more clear than it already is - when you become a member you are agreeing to adhere to the decisions of your superiors.
As has been mentioned many many times that I have seen, CAP is a Paramilitary Organization, funded and supported as a part of the United States Air Force Family, an Auxiliary Branch of the USAF. Like all Paramilitary Organizations, the leadership structure is based on military organizational structure.
As I see it the primary problem with CAP right now is that there are corporatists who are dead-set on adapting the organization to fit there ideas by drawing further seperation between Civil Air Patrol and the military for one reason or another. I could go off for hours on the subject of trying to change the organization to fit your desires rather than finding an organization that is more closely in-line with your desires but I will abstain from doing so at this time.
In the end it is kind of like trying to join the NRA as a means to outlaw guns - it won't work and the sooner we recognize that the better off we will be as an organization.
We have 3 missions in Civil Air Patrol
* Cadet Programs
* Aerospace Education
* Emergency Services
Of those missions all 3 are directly supported by the USAF in one way or another, so let's move past this discussion please.
On the subject of firing someone being a sign of poor leadership I contest that firing one person from a position is not a sign of poor leadership, firing five people from one position
is absolutely a sign of poor leadership. However, things in real life are not so black and white - using any one piece of data as the sole criteria for judging an individuals performance is a proven ineffective means of measurement.
Quote from: bflynn on June 01, 2012, 04:23:55 PM
It's much harder to lead people when you cannot have them flogged for disobeying. Effectively I'm saying that a softer approach is required.
Strong non-concur.
As a former Infantry officer, I can honestly say I never once heard anything remotely like "I order you to do X, and if you do not obey the full weight of the UCMJ will fall upon you."
Any military officer that relies on flogging / confinement / fines / reduction in rank as a primary leadership tool has failed miserably as an leader. I commanded a detachment, an MP company, and a large joint task force and never once referenced punishment when giving orders and guidance. Even when people were shooting at us.
Sure, I gave out my fair share of Article 15s during the six years or so I was in command of the various units. For administrative stuff like AWOL, missing movement, negligent discharge of a firearm, or false statements.
Indeed, I would suggest that leadership is leadership, whether in a CAP or AD environment. The Army's 11 Principles of Leadership seem apt:
- Know Yourself and Seek Self Improvement
- Be Technically Proficient
- Seek Responsibility and Take Responsibility for Your Actions
- Make Sound and Timely Decisions
- Set the Example
- Know Your Troops and Look Out for Their Well-Being
- Keep Your Followers Informed
- Develop a Sense of Responsibility In Your Followers
- Ensure that Each Task is Understood, Supervised, and Accomplished
- Build a Team
- Employ Your Team in Accordance With Its Capabilities.
And resonate just as strongly in CAP as they did for me in the Army.
(And notice that neither "flogging" nor any reference to negative UCMJ consequences appear in the list.)
Quote[In a CAP context, y]our power of compelling followership starts and ends with the ability to show someone the door. I consider firing someone (aka 2b) to be the most severe form of leadership failure. Therefore, your power of compelling followership is non-existent. Lacking that power of legal compulsion, you cannot even practice everything that is involved with military leadership except by taking steps that show failed leadership. That's a significant difference that deserves to be highlighted.
I'm sorry your Navy experience was apparently so negative. But my "power" in compelling followership in CAP is pretty much the same as it was in the military - shared ethics, common vision, setting the example, clear guidance, and any meager pursuasive powers I can muster. And if a unusual indvidual cannot be pursuaded to follow, then adminstrative sanctions are available. It was rare in the military, and it is rare in CAP.
Thank you for your service in the armed forces and in CAP. They are genuinely appreciated.
Ned Lee
Fellow Veteran
^ Well spoken Sir!
I spent 8 yrs in the Marine infantry from E-1 to E-5. Where I was people excelled because they wanted to as cheesy as that sounds. There were always quotas to schools up for grabs, meritorious promotions allotted, special units people wanted in to. Yes life sucked sometimes, and most of us grumbled about getting out but in reality I dont think most of us would have if given the chance. Heck.....I even re enlisted!
And then I meet people who genuinely hated every day of it. But I will say I dont think Ive ever heard an officer or senior enlisted threaten "Do this or else...." If it ever got to that point (at least in the units I was in) you were finished anyway ;D
Quote from: bflynn on June 01, 2012, 04:55:29 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on June 01, 2012, 04:45:10 PMYour postings indicate something else and I call it like I see it.
Am I understanding this correctly? You don't like what I say or how I write, so you question whether I was ever in the military?
Do you realize how completely bizarre that comes across?
Your anti military postings and rants about how poor military leadeship is leads one to believe you either
a) are majorly disgruntled
b) haven't served very long
c) never attended pme
D) combination of the above
Now this could be the case or simply that you either did not articulate it clearly enough.
Take offense and feel slighted if you must, but having not met you in person and based off your postings it is how I see it.
You know in all my 22 years in the USAF......I never had to resort to the "you will do this or you will go to jail" argument.
Yes....it was there in the tool box if I needed it.....and yes it was in the back of the mind of everyone I supervised.....but it most certainly was not my #1 leadership tool.
Since I left the USAF and started life as a blood sucking contractor......I use the same leadership style I used on active duty.....and I have not lost very many people.
I don't know about your military experince....but it seems to be very different than mine.
Quote from: RogueLeader on May 16, 2012, 09:35:32 PM
Also note that SM's are not required to do drill. Not saying that its a bad idea, just not required by regs. Provided that any SM does drill, be aware of how you correct them. If we can't go fmj, you can't either.
Aren't SM's required to do drill once a year?
Quote from: usafcap1 on June 02, 2012, 08:41:02 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on May 16, 2012, 09:35:32 PM
Also note that SM's are not required to do drill. Not saying that its a bad idea, just not required by regs. Provided that any SM does drill, be aware of how you correct them. If we can't go fmj, you can't either.
Aren't SM's required to do drill once a year?
And exactly where did you get that idea?
Quote from: usafcap1 on June 02, 2012, 08:41:02 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on May 16, 2012, 09:35:32 PM
Also note that SM's are not required to do drill. Not saying that its a bad idea, just not required by regs. Provided that any SM does drill, be aware of how you correct them. If we can't go fmj, you can't either.
Aren't SM's required to do drill once a year?
Short answer: no.
Quote from: usafcap1 on June 02, 2012, 08:41:02 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on May 16, 2012, 09:35:32 PM
Also note that SM's are not required to do drill. Not saying that its a bad idea, just not required by regs. Provided that any SM does drill, be aware of how you correct them. If we can't go fmj, you can't either.
Aren't SM's required to do drill once a year?
Quote to back that up?
Drill is not a requirement for any part of the senior member professional development program. It wouldnt be a bad idea to know basic stuff.
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 02, 2012, 03:55:47 PM
Drill is not a requirement for any part of the senior member professional development program. It wouldnt be a bad idea to know basic stuff.
You mean you don't approve of senior members at wing conferences rendering left handed fingers spread salutes when accepting Wing Awards?
I thought this was about uniforms. Wow, usually it for a from a non-uniform topic to a uniform topic drift. Talk about a non-sequitor.
Quote from: Major Carrales on June 02, 2012, 03:59:54 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on June 02, 2012, 03:55:47 PM
Drill is not a requirement for any part of the senior member professional development program. It wouldnt be a bad idea to know basic stuff.
You mean you don't approve of senior members at wing conferences rendering left handed fingers spread salutes when accepting Wing Awards?
I actually find the British style salute the most entertaining