CAP Talk

I have long thought about the idea of a CAP marksmanship ribbon for cadets and seniors.  I know that CAP currently authorizes the NRA marksmanship badges, but they are for cadets only and look rather out of place on the Air Force style uniform.  Has anyone else thought about CAP making a marksmanship ribbon?  The Air Force has a Small Arms Expert ribbon, and CAP having it's own would put CAP more in line with the Air Force.

I like it.  Write it up and send it through your wing king.

I would, but I'm no longer in CAP.  Maybe I could post one here and someone could volunteer to send it up to their wing king, just like with the Membership Ribbon. 

Do you have a CAP specific program in mind, or would you use the NRA or one of the DoD programs?

Rather than repeat myself: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1229.msg16199#msg16199

Quote from: arajca on January 14, 2007, 03:20:01 AM
Do you have a CAP specific program in mind, or would you use the NRA or one of the DoD programs?

I would use the NRA/DoD marksmanship programs.  What I propose is a CAP-specific ribbon that would be worn in lieu of the NRA Marksmanship badges.  Something like what AFROTC currently has.  The only addition is that both seniors and cadets could wear it. 

Anyone meeting the NRA/DoD marksmanship standards would qualify for the ribbon.   

Please explain to me why CAP members need firearms skills as a function of their participation.

I acknowledge that cadet participation in the NRA program is an interest builder, but I see little useful crossover to the SM world within a strict CAP context.

Quote from: SarDragon on January 14, 2007, 06:03:52 AM
Please explain to me why CAP members need firearms skills as a function of their participation.

I acknowledge that cadet participation in the NRA program is an interest builder, but I see little useful crossover to the SM world within a strict CAP context.

"Espirit de Corps", for fun, for the heck of it. Discipline is another reason. Gives people something to shoot for (pardon the pun). Fellowship. I understand it has no direct CAP relevance in the lower 48....yet (CG AUX on east coast somewhere rumored to be receiving certain weapons training), but why not?

Quote from: SarDragon on January 14, 2007, 06:03:52 AM
Please explain to me why CAP members need firearms skills as a function of their participation.

I acknowledge that cadet participation in the NRA program is an interest builder, but I see little useful crossover to the SM world within a strict CAP context.

When I was a lad, my grandpa took me hunting and taught to respect weapons (firearms).  I'm sure many of you had that talk.

These days I see all sorts of stupidity and lack of respect for firearms from the youth.  I suspect the tradition of Grandpa or Pop teaching kids how to handle firearms is greatly reduced.

If we are doing the NRA thing as status quo...why not make it more internal?

Well, my question is satisfactorily answered. Thank you.

As for an internal program, what for? The NRA program works fine and using it skirts breaking any of the other rules regarding firearms, or requiring changes to them.

If a CAP marksmanship ribbon was to be instituted there would have to be regulations on the issue of this ribbon. That would mean we'd have to have a marksmanship program of our own. That's a tough action to sell when we have no budget.

It's also hard to tell people that we're a benevolent organization and then tell them about your marksmanship ribbon.

I don't know about JROTC, but at the college level you shoot at camp & get the AF ribbon. Best case in my mind would be a multi-level program (from 22s) leadng to the AF ribbon.

To what end? Well, why do we have PJOC or Engineering whatever it's called? Generally to expose cadets to AF career opportunities, get them fired up abou tthe AF versus the more "hardcore" services - that's a big key, we lose a lot of cadets to Marine & Army cause they're looking for a challenge. Shooting programs accomplish the same thing. Give a cadet over 16 & in the advanced shooting program the chance to shoot an M16 & M9 to qual expert & get the AF ribbon before they go to basic, that's huge. You know what that would do for recruiting & retention?

Do Srs need to do it? Well I think you need to do anything you ask of your people, but that's just an excuse. It'd help  w/ recruiting & retention to a degree, and on another level it reinforces that this is a serious military linked activity & you got to approach missions w/ a warrior sort of mission-centric attitude. I think you'd find it pretty limited thought to people working with cadets & relatively few others.

The Army is a benevolent organizaiton, at least for US citizens. Police are benevolent. It's not the hypocratic oath. Some other benevolent cadet programs do a better job than us on this & some other hooah programs. It'd be nice to catch up. One of the things we do is give our kids advantages when they go on to later mil programs...

Let's play this out a little:

Using the NRA program has a couple advantages:
1. National recognized
2. Safe
3. Readily available
4. No special equipment needed - aside from guns and ammo
5. Already being used in CAP

Using a DoD program has advantages:
1. If cadets join the military, that's what they may likely use
2. Using the AF program, there is the potential for earning the AF Marksmanship ribbon(s)

Developing a custom CAP program:
1. Meets our needs

NRA has a couple disadvantages:
1. The NRA. Some people think the NRA is a right-wing group of crazies who just want to kill.
2. Awards, medals, patches, etc, cost money
3. No special range needed

DoD also has disadvantages:
1. Lack of DoD facilities in many wings, or lack of access to the facilities (MAJOR issue)
2. DoD may not want non-DoD civilians using their equipment or awards

Developing a custom CAP program:
1. Legal issues
2. Availability
3. Legal issues
4. Cost
5. Legal issues

There may be other programs available, but I don't know of them.

Moving on to the award specs...

The NRA has seven levels, although some levels have multiple steps:
Basic Participant
Pro-Marksman
Marksman
Marksman 1st Class
Sharpshooter (some classes have several stages of Sharpshooter)
Expert
Distinguished Expert

A simple award scheme is to award the ribbon for the first level (Basic Participant), followed by bronze stars for each of the Marksman levels, and silver stars for Sharpshooter (1), Expert (2), and Distinguished Expert (3). When the member receives their Shaprshooter qualification, they remove the bronze stars and just wear the one silver.

The ribbon would be worn behind the Encampment ribbon or somewhere in that area.

Quote from: afgeo4 on January 14, 2007, 07:37:19 AM
If a CAP marksmanship ribbon was to be instituted there would have to be regulations on the issue of this ribbon. That would mean we'd have to have a marksmanship program of our own. That's a tough action to sell when we have no budget.

It's also hard to tell people that we're a benevolent organization and then tell them about your marksmanship ribbon.

Dude.

On active duty I was an officially "Non-combatant" medic.  I still had to qualify with the .45 and the M-14, even though they were using the M-16 in Vietnam.  The Marines didn't have enough M-16's to use in training and still equip the Marines in Vietnam with them.  I qualified "Expert" with both, then got to Vietnam and never fired a shot.

CG Aux does not receive any weaons training.  However, there are ways for CG Auxies with the right skills to assist in training Coast Guardsmen in their use.  Very rare though. 

I am trying to become an NRA Istructor.  [I have to wait until I'm 21 though]
But yes, the ribbion sounds like a great idea! ;D

My beef with the NRA program is that it can be done on the honor system, and you can still get CAP credit for it. 

Quote from: MIKE on January 14, 2007, 04:36:06 PM
My beef with the NRA program is that it can be done on the honor system, and you can still get CAP credit for it. 

Soo?

Good idea guardrail, I am a member of the NRA and I support the idea.  I think firearms safety should be given to cadets in a formal safety briefing at  the cap  level.  good luck 8)

Quote from: sixgunjoe on January 14, 2007, 04:38:58 PM

Quote from: MIKE on January 14, 2007, 04:36:06 PM
My beef with the NRA program is that it can be done on the honor system, and you can still get CAP credit for it. 

Soo?

I would prefer that it be done under the supervision of a CAP authority, conducted in an organized manner... In order for it to be worn on the CAP uniform.  Gives it a little more creditability than me saying I went out in my backyard and shot a course of fire with a pellet gun.... And I have the certificate/medal I sent away for to prove it.

Why not use the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) already in place?
A cadet earning that badge can wear it on his or her AD uniform when he or she enlists.

http://www.odcmp.com/

Quote from: CMPThe CMP was created by the U.S. Congress. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve the U.S. military. Over the years the emphasis of the program shifted to focus on youth development through marksmanship. From 1916 until 1996 the CMP was administered by the U.S. Army. The National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1996 (TITLE XVI) created the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety, Inc. (CPRPFS) to take over administration and promotion of the CMP. The CPRPFS is a tax exempt not-for-profit 501(c)(3) organization that derives its mission from public law.

Also, a ppt presentation on how to put it together:

http://www.odcmp.com/Coaching/Downloads/CampsClinics.ppt

The way I've seen it done is either in an organized unit activity or the cadet brings the target(s) in to show they've meet the requirements.

If CAP were to develop its own program, there are many hurdles that need to be cleared, most of which involve lawyers, who cost money, which CAP has precious little of. Adopting the NRA program and adding a "supervised activity" requirement may be the best way to go.

Quote from: sandman on January 14, 2007, 06:38:26 PM
Why not use the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) already in place?
A cadet earning that badge can wear it on his or her AD uniform when he or she enlists.

I'm not aware of any CMP badge that can be worn on a military uniform.  Do you have a source?

Quote from: Guardrail on January 14, 2007, 09:47:38 PM

Quote from: sandman on January 14, 2007, 06:38:26 PM
Why not use the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) already in place?
A cadet earning that badge can wear it on his or her AD uniform when he or she enlists.

I'm not aware of any CMP badge that can be worn on a military uniform.  Do you have a source?

Actually, I can give you that info, it'll just take a few minutes. The CMP badges are authorized for wear on uniforms by all branches of the military. The only difference is the hanger for it usually states the specific branch of the uniform you're wearing. It's also mentioned in 39-1 (or at least it used to be)

Back in a few...

Well, I could give you a load of info, but it would end up in overload. I have attached the page of 39-1 that shows the CMP badges that are authorized.

The badges that are authorized for wear by CAP are the Excellence in Competion, and Distinguished Rifle or Pistol Shot badges. Those badges are awarded by the Deputy of Civilian Marksmanship, under the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

For the Army, the regulation series is 920 (which right now, is still not available electronically that I'm aware of). AR 670-1 authorizes wear, and actually illustrates both the badge, and proper placement.

For the Air Force, the program is administered under AFI 34-227 (attached). AFI 36-2903 authorizes, and explains wear.

I could include info for the Navy, Marine Corps, and probably Coast Guard, if you're truly interested. But it will take a while.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 15, 2007, 01:08:33 AM
Well, I could give you a load of info, but it would end up in overload. I have attached the page of 39-1 that shows the CMP badges that are authorized.

The badges that are authorized for wear by CAP are the Excellence in Competion, and Distinguished Rifle or Pistol Shot badges. Those badges are awarded by the Deputy of Civilian Marksmanship, under the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

For the Army, the regulation series is 920 (which right now, is still not available electronically that I'm aware of). AR 670-1 authorizes wear, and actually illustrates both the badge, and proper placement.

For the Air Force, the program is administered under AFI 34-227 (attached). AFI 36-2903 authorizes, and explains wear.

I could include info for the Navy, Marine Corps, and probably Coast Guard, if you're truly interested. But it will take a while.

Thanks, Hawk 200.  Shows how good I am at reading between the lines.<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZNxdm824YYUS%2526i%253D29%252F29%255F1%255F9%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">(http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_1_9.gif) 

Does anyone happen to have a pic of the badge/badges?  I don't think I've ever seen them.

Yeah I have to agree with Mike, plus if the point is to gain the advantages specified at the top of this thread, it must be as a CAP activity & not just to earn a ribbon/device.

CMP is intresting also versus NRA. It's a little more accessiblity problems, but less political perception issues. CAP could create its own program, but why when other have done the work & will administer it for us. The legal issues are what exactly? We already got AF funded total coverage insurance when not on missions, & that explicitly includes firearms programs regardless of who they're administered by.

I do like the CAP specific ribbon w/ clasps as stated rather than the NRA or CMP badge. That sounds good.

I'd also be interested in a NCSA (requiring a certain level in the NRA program as a pre-req) in which cadets go to a base, thru a fun little week of warrior orientation (they can't shoot all week, but they can get dirty, do some small unit tactics, lil op-for, and the o-course) & shoot for the AF Small-Arms Expert Ribbon. How's that sound? Maybe eve do it at Hurlburt Field where they can be given a little show.

Guardrail:

Go over to "For Those Who Don't Remember..."  There's a pic of a CAP LTC with the Berry Boards, and a Navy CPO with the Distinguished Marksman Award.

Quote from: DNall on January 15, 2007, 02:09:09 AM

I do like the CAP specific ribbon w/ clasps as stated rather than the NRA or CMP badge. That sounds good.

There you go duplicating effort again, not to mention new expenses. Almost every branch of the uniform services authorizes the wear of CMP badges. What point is there to creating a ribbon exclusive to CAP?

If you compete in the program, meet the requirements, you get the appropriate badge. Besides, CMP competitors are extremely rare, why hide such a distinctive accomplishment within a ribbon rack?

Quote from: DNall on January 15, 2007, 02:09:09 AM
Yeah I have to agree with Mike, plus if the point is to gain the advantages specified at the top of this thread, it must be as a CAP activity & not just to earn a ribbon/device.

CMP is intresting also versus NRA. It's a little more accessiblity problems, but less political perception issues. CAP could create its own program, but why when other have done the work & will administer it for us. The legal issues are what exactly? We already got AF funded total coverage insurance when not on missions, & that explicitly includes firearms programs regardless of who they're administered by.

I do like the CAP specific ribbon w/ clasps as stated rather than the NRA or CMP badge. That sounds good.

I'd also be interested in a NCSA (requiring a certain level in the NRA program as a pre-req) in which cadets go to a base, thru a fun little week of warrior orientation (they can't shoot all week, but they can get dirty, do some small unit tactics, lil op-for, and the o-course) & shoot for the AF Small-Arms Expert Ribbon. How's that sound? Maybe eve do it at Hurlburt Field where they can be given a little show.

Maybe even feed one or two to "Big John" in the "Officers' Swimming Pool?"

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 15, 2007, 02:15:46 AM
Guardrail:

Go over to "For Those Who Don't Remember..."  There's a pic of a CAP LTC with the Berry Boards, and a Navy CPO with the Distinguished Marksman Award.

Thanks, sir.  I searched for "For Those Who Don't Remember..." and nothing came up.  What folder can I find it in?

Scroll down, son, its there.

For those who don't remember the days...

About a dozen or so threads down from this one.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 15, 2007, 02:27:50 AM
Scroll down, son, its there.

For those who don't remember the days...

About a dozen or so threads down from this one.

I found it, sir.  Thanks again.  For a moment, I thought I was <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZNxdm824YYUS%2526i%253D10%252F10%255F1%255F123%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">(http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_123.gif)

I notice the CPO was wearing his wings under his ribbons.  Is that allowable?

Quote from: arajca on January 14, 2007, 02:44:27 PM
Moving on to the award specs...

The NRA has seven levels, although some levels have multiple steps:
Basic Participant
Pro-Marksman
Marksman
Marksman 1st Class
Sharpshooter (some classes have several stages of Sharpshooter)
Expert
Distinguished Expert

A simple award scheme is to award the ribbon for the first level (Basic Participant), followed by bronze stars for each of the Marksman levels, and silver stars for Sharpshooter (1), Expert (2), and Distinguished Expert (3). When the member receives their Shaprshooter qualification, they remove the bronze stars and just wear the one silver.

The ribbon would be worn behind the Encampment ribbon or somewhere in that area.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 15, 2007, 02:17:09 AM
There you go duplicating effort again, not to mention new expenses. Almost every branch of the uniform services authorizes the wear of CMP badges. What point is there to creating a ribbon exclusive to CAP?

If you compete in the program, meet the requirements, you get the appropriate badge. Besides, CMP competitors are extremely rare, why hide such a distinctive accomplishment within a ribbon rack?

Spec mentioned was getting rid of the funky mismatched NRA badge while moving into more complete participation. CMP is fine too. I tell ya though, I like the idea of it being pretty easy to get the initial understated award, but then being able to work thru levels to a harder award that'll earn them something they can take with them to the military.

Quote from: Guardrail on January 15, 2007, 02:42:20 AM
I notice the CPO was wearing his wings under his ribbons.  Is that allowable?

Surface warfare pin.

Quote from: DNall on January 15, 2007, 02:50:35 AM
Surface warfare pin.

Oh, now I see.  Thanks, sir.  The picture is kind of blurry.  <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZNxdm824YYUS%2526i%253D10%252F10%255F7%255F6%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">(http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_7_6.gif)

no doubt, I'd think it was wings too if the text didn't explain.

(http://www.texascadet.org/photos/activities/encampment/2005_w/2005_w%20(43).jpg)
This is 05, by the way. We don't do enough, but we do it just the same. I swear it seems like every other cader I see has the NRA badge now days. I do think there's a better way though.

Quote from: DNall on January 17, 2007, 04:32:45 PMI swear it seems like every other cadet I see has the NRA badge now days. I do think there's a better way though.

I know what you mean sir; I've seen many cadets wear the NRA marksmanship badges.  Earned mine at my basic encampment back in 99'.  Wore it all the time as a Cadet NCO, stopped wearing it shortly after I rated the Cadet Solo wings (except on the Semi-Formal).   

Question: have you ever seen a member of the Air Force/CAP wear the CMP marksmanship badge?  I know it's authrorized, but I've never seen it worn on an Air Force uniform.   

Quote from: Guardrail on January 17, 2007, 05:56:33 PM
Question: have you ever seen a member of the Air Force/CAP wear the CMP marksmanship badge?  I know it's authrorized, but I've never seen it worn on an Air Force uniform.   

Only one in person, several more in photos. And the one I knew personally, actually carried around a copy of both his orders for it, and a copy of the page from the uniform manual authorizing it. As usual, there are people that are absolutely ignorant as to what is authorized on a uniform.

They are more common in the Army (and Army Guard) and considering that they are very similar to the Army marksmanship badges, most people don't have any problems there.

I don't see any real need for a CAP marksmanship ribbon. We have no mission whatsoever that requires anyone in CAP to be shooting anyone or anything. And the fact that we are restricted from carrying firearms in the first place is sufficient reason not create a ribbon for it. It doesn't fit us.

Wearing the CMP badges is basically honoring someone elses award, usually the military's recognition of firearm skills. Not much different than honoring a military officers grade. At least from my viewpoint, YMMV.

We shouldn't have to make up our program to recognize anything, and that's what creating a CAP marksman ribbon would be. Although, I consider it equitable for CAP members to shoot on an Air Force range, taught by Air Force range personnel, and receive the Air Force ribbon. That would be allowing the Air Force to present us awards of accomplishments. Not to mention, we wouldn't have to create anything.

Quote from: Guardrail on January 17, 2007, 05:56:33 PM
Question: have you ever seen a member of the Air Force/CAP wear the CMP marksmanship badge?  I know it's authrorized, but I've never seen it worn on an Air Force uniform.   

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 17, 2007, 06:51:40 PMOnly one in person, several more in photos. And the one I knew personally, actually carried around a copy of both his orders for it, and a copy of the page from the uniform manual authorizing it. As usual, there are people that are absolutely ignorant as to what is authorized on a uniform.

I know what you mean.  Do you have any links to photos of AF personnel wearing the CMP badge, Hawk200?  It would be interesting to see what it looks like on the AF uniform. 

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 17, 2007, 06:51:40 PMI don't see any real need for a CAP marksmanship ribbon. We have no mission whatsoever that requires anyone in CAP to be shooting anyone or anything. And the fact that we are restricted from carrying firearms in the first place is sufficient reason not create a ribbon for it. It doesn't fit us.

I understand, but can't CAP come up with a marksmanship ribbon that would be awarded according to the NRA and CMP critera and worn in lieu of the NRA badge?  CAP could have its own ribbon without having its own marksmanship program.

Good example is the AFROTC Cadet Marksmanship ribbon.  It is awarded in lieu of the AF Small Arms Expert Marksmanship ribbon (which repaces the AFROTC ribbon upon commissioning).  AFROTC doesn't have it's own marksmanship program; it uses the USAF program instead.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 17, 2007, 06:51:40 PMWearing the CMP badges is basically honoring someone elses award, usually the military's recognition of firearm skills. Not much different than honoring a military officers grade. At least from my viewpoint, YMMV.

I agree.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 17, 2007, 06:51:40 PMWe shouldn't have to make up our program to recognize anything, and that's what creating a CAP marksman ribbon would be.

Not necessarily.  Like I said, CAP could have its own marksmanship ribbon without having to create its own marksmanship program.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 17, 2007, 06:51:40 PMAlthough, I consider it equitable for CAP members to shoot on an Air Force range, taught by Air Force range personnel, and receive the Air Force ribbon. That would be allowing the Air Force to present us awards of accomplishments. Not to mention, we wouldn't have to create anything.

I feel the same way, Hawk200.  However, isin't the AF Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon only authorized for AF personnel who rate it in the AF and choose to wear it on the CAP uniform?  I was told this by a CAP officer a while back.  Not sure if he was correct or not.   

(http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Images/Shooting01.jpg)

Here's a photo I found of Air Force personnel wearing the CMP Marksmanship badges. 

The site (Air Force Sports) also has the different AF Marksmanship Badges pictured with descriptions of each.  Here's the link:  http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Sports/Shooting.htm

I found out that the Air Force marksmanship badges may only be worn when awarded (per AFI 36-2903, Table 5.1), and the OPR is HQ AFSVA, not CMP (even though they are CMP badges adopted for the Air Force).

That's why I've never seen any Air Force personnel wear the badge.     

Quote from: Guardrail on January 17, 2007, 10:08:05 PM
(http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Images/Shooting01.jpg)

Here's a photo I found of Air Force personnel wearing the CMP Marksmanship badges. 

The site (Air Force Sports) also has the different AF Marksmanship Badges pictured with descriptions of each.  Here's the link:  http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Sports/Shooting.htm

I found out that the Air Force marksmanship badges may only be worn when awarded (per AFI 36-2903, Table 5.1), and the OPR is HQ AFSVA, not CMP (even though they are CMP badges adopted for the Air Force).

That's why I've never seen any Air Force personnel wear the badge.     

It look like their wearing CAP Corporate uniforms.  I'm not up on all the USAF uniform regs/manuals, do they wear white shirts with USAF shoulder marks?  Or is the color of the photo distoring to "white" when it shoudl be blue?

AF uniforms. The nametags are a dead giveaway. Just a little bit of overexposure in the pic.

Quote from: SarDragon on January 17, 2007, 10:50:21 PM
AF uniforms. The nametags are a dead giveaway. Just a little bit of overexposure in the pic.

That what I thought...

MY understanding is that we can wear the Airforce Handgun Qualification ribbon by simply taking the M9 qualification course. Any Senior could theoretically do this if they could find an AF instructor willing to let them participate in the formal class.

Why do we need to have cadets learn to shoot? In case they need to perforate the godless bodies of the enemies of freedom! (I thought you would know that...)

More than one or two of my Cadet lad's have seen enough trigger time to last a life time. They were [darn] glad of their CAP and NRA rife training. Military rifle training (especially the Air Force) is very minimal (except the Marines of course, they get all the good stuff!)

Quote from: CaptLord on January 18, 2007, 02:23:52 AM
MY understanding is that we can wear the Airforce Handgun Qualification ribbon by simply taking the M9 qualification course. Any Senior could theoretically do this if they could find an AF instructor willing to let them participate in the formal class.

You get the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon not for just qualifying, but by shooting Expert.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 17, 2007, 06:51:40 PM
I don't see any real need for a CAP marksmanship ribbon. We have no mission whatsoever that requires anyone in CAP to be shooting anyone or anything. And the fact that we are restricted from carrying firearms in the first place is sufficient reason not create a ribbon for it. It doesn't fit us.

Wearing the CMP badges is basically honoring someone elses award, usually the military's recognition of firearm skills. Not much different than honoring a military officers grade. At least from my viewpoint, YMMV.

We shouldn't have to make up our program to recognize anything, and that's what creating a CAP marksman ribbon would be. Although, I consider it equitable for CAP members to shoot on an Air Force range, taught by Air Force range personnel, and receive the Air Force ribbon. That would be allowing the Air Force to present us awards of accomplishments. Not to mention, we wouldn't have to create anything.

First, I agree that we should use soemone else's program over a series of developmental stages leading to the opportunity to shoot for the AF ribbon under AF supervision, possibly as a NCSA. Any idea about a CAP ribbon would be de-emphasizing the mis-match badges.

Now why should we be doing this? Cause cadet programs is differnt than ES, it's about creating a pool of great motivated folks for the military to pilfer, & if they don't go that route it still serves them well. A shooting program builds confidence, esprit de corps, etc & it keeps people amped up about potential military service. Most AF personnel aren't ever going to carry a rifle in a combat zone, but that doesn't stop them from having to shoot. We're just one more step away, in giving these kids every head-start before they get there. Plus, I hadn't seen any statistics & wouldn't let the AF see them, but I think we send more cadets to Army/Marines than AF enlisted service.

Dennis:

Don't bother hiding the stats from Big Mother Blue.  They already have them.

There was a BIG dustup in the 1990's about the cadet program feeding everybody except the Air Force, and they polled the cadets, recent enlistees, and recent former cadets.  The most frequent responses were:

1.  CAP emphasizes ground operations tasks for cadets.  They end up feeling at home in the woods, they learn to read topographic charts, and they then tend to gravitate to the gravel-grinding services.

2.  The Air Force did not offer them the physical and mental challenges offered by the Marines and Army.

Sure I remember, and I don't think anything has changed. We push more money at o-flights sometimes anyway. AE is supposed to get pushed harder... I think you have to sell the military first, the AF, then let the recruiters close & cadets close the deal for themelves. I think these kinds of programs are good for that, and a NCSA like mentioned above would help sell the AF the same way the Navy waves thier SEALs around.

Quote from: Guardrail on January 17, 2007, 07:43:12 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 17, 2007, 06:51:40 PMWe shouldn't have to make up our program to recognize anything, and that's what creating a CAP marksman ribbon would be.

Not necessarily.  Like I said, CAP could have its own marksmanship ribbon without having to create its own marksmanship program.

Then it's still a duplication of effort, not with a program but a decoration. In the manner you suggest it would be awarding a member with our dec by accomplishing a program that wasn't ours.

An additional note is that there are people in the military that recognize those badges. Let them see our members with it. If those military members see a CAP member with a CMP badge, then it shows the military personnel that our members can and do accomplish some of the same things they can do. It gives us "points" with them.

I also agree with some of the other folks here that the Air Force should award more of their decorations to us. It would create more of CAP being part of their "Total Force" concept. And that can help us.

Quote

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 17, 2007, 06:51:40 PMAlthough, I consider it equitable for CAP members to shoot on an Air Force range, taught by Air Force range personnel, and receive the Air Force ribbon. That would be allowing the Air Force to present us awards of accomplishments. Not to mention, we wouldn't have to create anything.

I feel the same way, Hawk200.  However, isin't the AF Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon only authorized for AF personnel who rate it in the AF and choose to wear it on the CAP uniform?  I was told this by a CAP officer a while back.  Not sure if he was correct or not. 

I believe, with our current regulations, that is correct. I would like to see it change.

Presently, having cadets shoot on ranges is very tightly controlled. And nowadays, there is an issue of funding. Ammo costs money, and I don't know if the military agencies that let us fire with them before can really spare a whole lot. It's a tough position.

Quote from: Guardrail on January 17, 2007, 10:08:05 PM
I found out that the Air Force marksmanship badges may only be worn when awarded (per AFI 36-2903, Table 5.1), and the OPR is HQ AFSVA, not CMP (even though they are CMP badges adopted for the Air Force).

The CMP program presents criteria, and does actually award a badge when you complete the various phases of their program.

The part where it gets funny is when it comes to your particular branch of service. Each branch uses an extremely similar badge, with markings that are unique to the branch of service. The Distinguished Marsman badges only differ in the hanger, which states the branch of service.

The Civilian Marksmanship Program may award any badge that you have met the requirements for. However, it is not a military award. To wear it as a uniform item, there are steps you must take.

For the Air Force, you send all your documented accumulated points to Air Force Services. They will verify, and register your participation in the program. If you meet the requirements, they will issue orders and one of the Air Force specific Competition badges.

The Air Force cannot actually award a CMP badge, but they can give you the AF specific one if you have qualified for the CMP badge.

Probably clear as mud, I imagine.

Just for info, here's a link to photos of the Air Force pistol badges:

http://www.airforceshooting.org/eicbadgs.html

I can't seem to find any on the Air Force Rifle badges. Maybe someone else can.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 18, 2007, 07:24:42 PM

Quote from: Guardrail on January 17, 2007, 10:08:05 PM
I found out that the Air Force marksmanship badges may only be worn when awarded (per AFI 36-2903, Table 5.1), and the OPR is HQ AFSVA, not CMP (even though they are CMP badges adopted for the Air Force).

The CMP program presents criteria, and does actually award a badge when you complete the various phases of their program.

The part where it gets funny is when it comes to your particular branch of service. Each branch uses an extremely similar badge, with markings that are unique to the branch of service. The Distinguished Marksman badges only differ in the hanger, which states the branch of service.

The Civilian Marksmanship Program may award any badge that you have met the requirements for. However, it is not a military award. To wear it as a uniform item, there are steps you must take.

For the Air Force, you send all your documented accumulated points to Air Force Services. They will verify, and register your participation in the program. If you meet the requirements, they will issue orders and one of the Air Force specific Competition badges.

The Air Force cannot actually award a CMP badge, but they can give you the AF specific one if you have qualified for the CMP badge.

Probably clear as mud, I imagine.

Yes, Hawk200.  However, even if you have your orders with you, AFI-36-2903 makes it clear that the badge/badges may only be worn on the day of awarding.

This is probably different for the other services, esp. the Army and Marines, who have marksmanship badges that may be worn on the uniform after the day they are awarded.   

Quote from: Guardrail on January 18, 2007, 07:34:03 PM
Yes, Hawk200.  However, even if you have your orders with you, AFI-36-2903 makes it clear that the badge/badges may only be worn on the day of awarding.

I think I misunderstand something here, the AFI shows wear criteria for wear. And the award is a permanent one.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 18, 2007, 07:32:33 PM
Just for info, here's a link to photos of the Air Force pistol badges:

http://www.airforceshooting.org/eicbadgs.html

I can't seem to find any on the Air Force Rifle badges. Maybe someone else can.

Found them.  Here they are:

(http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Images/BronzeRifle.jpg)  (http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Images/BronzeRiflewreath.jpg)
(http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Images/SliverRifle.jpg) (http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Images/DistRifle.jpg)


From: http://www.afsv.af.mil/AFSports/Sports/Shooting.htm

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 18, 2007, 07:36:02 PM

Quote from: Guardrail on January 18, 2007, 07:34:03 PM
Yes, Hawk200.  However, even if you have your orders with you, AFI-36-2903 makes it clear that the badge/badges may only be worn on the day of awarding.

I think I misunderstand something here, the AFI shows wear criteria for wear. And the award is a permanent one.

Hmmm... maybe I misunderstand something.  Where does the AFI say the award is permanent?  Perhaps the award itself is permanent, but may only be worn on the day of awarding. 

Quote from: Guardrail on January 18, 2007, 07:40:51 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 18, 2007, 07:36:02 PM

Quote from: Guardrail on January 18, 2007, 07:34:03 PM
Yes, Hawk200.  However, even if you have your orders with you, AFI-36-2903 makes it clear that the badge/badges may only be worn on the day of awarding.

I think I misunderstand something here, the AFI shows wear criteria for wear. And the award is a permanent one.

Hmmm... maybe I misunderstand something.  Where does the AFI say the award is permanent?  Perhaps the award itself is permanent, but may only be worn on the day of awarding. 

Why would there be wear criteria for a badge that can only be worn once? There wouldn't be, it would be a waste of space in the reg. You may qualify for a badge, but you can't wear it until it's awarded in some manner. That may be some kind of paperwork, or it may have to be documented in your records. That is "awarded".

When I was in the Air Force initially, maintenance badges were awarded. I met all the qualifications for it, but couldn't wear it until the commander signed off paperwork for me to wear it. It's the same idea here. Until someone signs off on it, it isn't awarded.

For Air Force tech schools nowadays, they give the graduates the badge for their field they are now qualified in. And it's documented in records that they recieved it.

I think the "when awarded" is being confused as the "day of award". They're not the same thing. The wording is completely different. And if it was based on the "day of award" then just about everyone in the military has violated that, and noone would be authorized to wear their badges. And I doubt that's the case.

Well, the thing is that Table 5.2 of AFI 36-2903 (2 Aug 06) says, "If individual wears the [AF marksmanship badge]... And [when awarded]... OPR HQ AFSVA."  It doesn't say after awarding, it just says, "when awarded."  It's a little confusing. 

If it were to be worn retroactively, it would say something like "Retroactive" or "may be worn after day of awarding" or something like that.

The AF Marksmanship Badge and the Scuba badge are the only awards in any table of the AFI 36-2903 that may be worn "when awarded."  Neither of which are included in table 5.1, Display of Badges. 

This leads me to believe that the AF Marksmanship badges and scuba badge may only be worn when awarded (i.e. the day of awarding).  The day of awarding is when the badge is awarded.

Quote from: Guardrail on January 18, 2007, 08:10:50 PM
Well, the thing is that Table 5.2 of AFI 36-2903 (2 Aug 06) says, "If individual wears the [AF marksmanship badge]... And [when awarded]... OPR HQ AFSVA."  It doesn't say after awarding, it just says, "when awarded."  It's a little confusing. 

If it were to be worn retroactively, it would say something like "Retroactive" or "may be worn after day of awarding" or something like that.

The AF Marksmanship Badge and the Scuba badge are the only awards in any table of the AFI 36-2903 that may be worn "when awarded."  Neither of which are included in table 5.1, Display of Badges. 

This leads me to believe that the AF Marksmanship badges and scuba badge may only be worn when awarded (i.e. the day of awarding).  The day of awarding is when the badge is awarded.

I think that may be thinking a little too much into it. Out of curiousity, I sent an email to Air Force services asking for clarification on it.

Then again, 2903 can be just as confusing as 39-1. The wear of various insignia is inconsistent between genders in certain places where it shouldn't be. Don't get me wrong, females wear certain badges in different places due to "anatomical differences" (and we're going to leave it at that  ;) )

As far as the scuba badge goes, I've seen numerous people in the Air Force wearing it in service dress, and not all in Special Ops. There is no way in the world that someone would ever be "awarded" the scuba badge in service dress. As far as it goes, the member being awarded a scuba badge may not be wearing a uniform at all. They'd probably be in swim trunks or something.

Maybe I am thinking too much into it.  Hawk 200 is right, the 36-2903 can be just as confusing as the 39-1.  It will be interesting to see what AF Services says. 

Quote from: Guardrail on January 18, 2007, 08:44:51 PM
Maybe I am thinking too much into it.  Hawk 200 is right, the 36-2903 can be just as confusing as the 39-1.  It will be interesting to see what AF Services says. 

Yeah, it will be. I imagine that I'll get an answer in a few days. They don't seem to be instant responders on things. And I swear, I'll scream if they just reference 2903, and don't clarify.

Got to thinking about it, and something occurred to me. The Air Force specific Competition badges are actually issued by the Air Force, at least the first one is anyway.

Now, those badges probably run the Air Force about 10-15 bucks. Why would the Air Force commision a badge, purchase them, issue them, and then only permit their wear for one day?  The Fraud, Waste and Abuse guys would have a field day, and rightly so.

Most of the time, if the Air Force requires something to be worn, they will issue when you qualify for it. After that it's up to you to maintain that item in your clothing bag. It just doesn't make sense to me that they would issue an item for a single day of wear. I'm not implying that they are mandatory, since the AFI is unclear on that, I'd say it's unlikely.

Just random thoughts, thought I'd share. Still haven't heard back from Air Force Services yet, probably be awhile anyway.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 15, 2007, 01:08:33 AM
The badges that are authorized for wear by CAP are the Excellence in Competion, and Distinguished Rifle or Pistol Shot badges. Those badges are awarded by the Deputy of Civilian Marksmanship, under the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

While these awards are authorized for wear on the CAP uniform, there is a slight "technicality" in CAPM 39-1 that has been overlooked:

Quote6-7. US Military Badges. CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. The military badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5. Before wearing any badge not listed in this table, contact National Headquarters/LMM for clarification. US Military badges are not authorized for wear on any of the CAP distinctive uniforms.

Emphasis added.


Since the Excellence-in-Competition and Distinguished Rifle/Pistol badges are listed in Table 6-5, it would appear that badges awarded to civilians by the Civilian Marksmanship Program are not authorized on the CAP uniform.

When it comes to the legal issues about CAP having its own marksmanship program I think that could be easily dismissed with a few liability wayvers.

Quote from: Tony91 on January 20, 2007, 01:23:11 AM
When it comes to the legal issues about CAP having its own marksmanship program I think that could be easily dismissed with a few liability wayvers.

First of all, that's "waiver".

Secondly, in today's litigious society, anyone with a hint of a deep pocket is fair game, and waivers can end up not meaning a lot.

Quote from: baronet68 on January 19, 2007, 11:21:30 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 15, 2007, 01:08:33 AM
The badges that are authorized for wear by CAP are the Excellence in Competion, and Distinguished Rifle or Pistol Shot badges. Those badges are awarded by the Deputy of Civilian Marksmanship, under the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

While these awards are authorized for wear on the CAP uniform, there is a slight "technicality" in CAPM 39-1 that has been overlooked:

Quote6-7. US Military Badges. CAP members may wear only the US military badges authorized for wear on the US Air Force uniform when earned through qualification and awarded by competent authority for service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States or its allies. The military badges authorized for wear on the CAP uniform and BDU are listed in Table 6-5. Before wearing any badge not listed in this table, contact National Headquarters/LMM for clarification. US Military badges are not authorized for wear on any of the CAP distinctive uniforms.

Emphasis added.

Since the Excellence-in-Competition and Distinguished Rifle/Pistol badges are listed in Table 6-5, it would appear that badges awarded to civilians by the Civilian Marksmanship Program are not authorized on the CAP uniform.

That's a good point. So basically, you couldn't wear the generic Excellence in Competition or Distinguished Shot badges. It would have to be one of the military specific badges.

Which, in a way, is kinda cruddy. Police officers and many others actually compete in those matches beside military, but they wouldn't be able to wear one of those badges in a manner that would be compliant with 39-1. Even though they met the exact same requirements.

Hey Y'all, I got an idea...

I shoot highpower rifle competition and have shot more than a few "Leg" matches to try and get my Distinguished Rifleman as a civilian. It ain't easy. Only the top 10 percent get points, top 1/3 get 10 points, the next 1/3 get 8 and the last third get 6. In order to earn the badge you must earn 30 points, of which one must be a 10 point "Leg". Camp Perry is the exception, where all Leg points given there are 10 pointers. The USAF badges are the same device that is issued to civilians by CMP.

Those are pretty much the rules for rifle and pistol badges. The international badge, however, is earned by placing in an ISU match in World championship, like the Olympics or other international games.

These are the CMP rules for civilians, each branch has it's own rules, like the Corps. They have to earn X number of points through their Excellence in Marksmanship program which looks a LOT like the old rifleman program.

Army issues "leg" points in their combat rifle matches, I'm not up to speed on their regs to comment much more.

IIRC the USAF regs state that airmen/officers who get their 30 Leg points for Distinguished may do so at the civilian matches, so requesting to wear a USAF Distinguished Rifleman badge in a CAP uniform I don't believe would be too far out of line.

Anyway here's the idea: Authorize a CAP marksmanship ribbon for cadets and seniors who have shot expert in any NRA firearm discipline. Let's sweeten the pot here and authorize an R and P device designating Rifle and Pistol. How about a silver R and P for those who make Distinguished Expert?

In exchange, the cadet medals go away. One can rack up a long ladder of medals if one has the means and this would make things easier for all involved. The only medals allowed would be Distinguished Rifleman, Distinguished Pistol and International badges.


Johnny Yuma

A couple ideas were expressed...
1) Keep NRA, but de-emphasize the too easily earned ugly (on AF) badges by going to a ribbon w/ devices up thru the layers

2)  Junk NRA to avoid PC-nazis, & get someting out of it that carries over to the AF.
a) CMP badges - hard to earn, can wear in all services
b) work way up to shooting for AF smal arms expert robbon. which again would be worn in all services, but reqires a change since it's awarded to mil personnel.

Quote from: DNall on January 21, 2007, 12:27:40 AM
A couple ideas were expressed...
1) Keep NRA, but de-emphasize the too easily earned ugly (on AF) badges by going to a ribbon w/ devices up thru the layers

Uses already proven and familiar system.

Quote2) Junk NRA to avoid PC-nazis, & get someting out of it that carries over to the AF.

Not many CAP members go into the AF. More go into the Army and Marines (based on comments by others). So carrying over to the AF is mostly a moot point.

Quotea) CMP badges - hard to earn, can wear in all services

Hard enough to earn that it almost becomes an elitist badge and, IMO, well beyond the resources of a typical CAP cadet or senior.

Quoteb) work way up to shooting for AF smal arms expert robbon. which again would be worn in all services, but reqires a change since it's awarded to mil personnel.

Due to lack of facilities, this also becomes an "elitist" badge.

Quote from: arajca on January 21, 2007, 01:16:44 AM

Quotea) CMP badges - hard to earn, can wear in all services

Hard enough to earn that it almost becomes an elitist badge and, IMO, well beyond the resources of a typical CAP cadet or senior.

It is an elitist badge. It's for those elite that did something to earn it. And there are a few clubs that create what amounts to "scholarships" for some younger folks.

Then again, getting a pilots license could be considered elitist. And getting a pilots license can end up costing far more than earning a CMP badge.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 20, 2007, 10:57:07 PM
The USAF badges are the same device that is issued to civilians by CMP.

Not quite. They are different badges, but it's mostly a case of cosmetics rather than overall design. The CMP will never hand you an Air Force badge. They may give you their own, but it's good for a shadow box or something, you would never be able to legtimately wear it on an Air Force uniform.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 20, 2007, 10:57:07 PM
Anyway here's the idea: Authorize a CAP marksmanship ribbon for cadets and seniors who have shot expert in any NRA firearm discipline. Let's sweeten the pot here and authorize an R and P device designating Rifle and Pistol. How about a silver R and P for those who make Distinguished Expert?

You know I don't understand this line of reasoning I keep seeing. Seems like something has to have CAP's name on it to be of any value. There are Civilian Marksmanship Program badges that are awarded once you complete certain criteria. Why does CAP have to make something for that in the first place? There are already badges produced, just encourage people to look into them.

This idea that a program can only be worth something only so long as Civil Air Patrol's name is on it can be a problem. Some might see it as unfounded hubris. How much different is it than writing your name on someone elses test, and turning it in as your own?

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 20, 2007, 10:57:07 PMIn exchange, the cadet medals go away. One can rack up a long ladder of medals if one has the means and this would make things easier for all involved. The only medals allowed would be Distinguished Rifleman, Distinguished Pistol and International badges.

There are no medals for shooting in CAP. There is a Junior NRA Marksmanship badge that  may only be worn by cadets. I've only ever seen one cadet wearing one. They are rare. Rarer than Spaatz cadets, even.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 21, 2007, 04:48:32 AM
There are no medals for shooting in CAP. There is a Junior NRA Marksmanship badge that  may only be worn by cadets. I've only ever seen one cadet wearing one. They are rare. Rarer than Spaatz cadets, even.

You need to venture out here to WAWG where there are two very active marskmanship programs and almost every squadron in the wing has 1+ cadets wearing a marksmanship badge.  My squadron currently has about 7 cadets sporting such badges so they are definitely not as rare as you might think. 

I see no need to create a "CAP flavored" badge/ribbon for marksmanship.  If you're looking for some way to add legitimacy to the award, then making it CAP flavored is (in my opinion) a step backwards.  The NRA is probably the most recognizable and legitimate shooting organizations out there.  Putting the NRA's name behind an award worn on a cadet's uniform communicates to people that CAP isn't training cadets for combat (it also deflates any wannabees trying to tell people that they received some kind of "super-secret weapons training" by US Special Forces troops).

Quote from: baronet68 on January 21, 2007, 07:03:42 AM
I see no need to create a "CAP flavored" badge/ribbon for marksmanship.  If you're looking for some way to add legitimacy to the award, then making it CAP flavored is (in my opinion) a step backwards.  The NRA is probably the most recognizable and legitimate shooting organizations out there.  Putting the NRA's name behind an award worn on a cadet's uniform communicates to people that CAP isn't training cadets for combat (it also deflates any wannabees trying to tell people that they received some kind of "super-secret weapons training" by US Special Forces troops).

Not seeking legitimacy, seeking loss of stupid looking NRA badge that is pretty easy to earn in one day & with bad standards for how.

We are training them for combat, and life. Don't forget that the cadet program was initially established to create a pool of qualified candidates to enter AF pilot training. The mission since then has only broadened slightly. Of course we publish a non-committal statement saying we're preparing them to be of service to community/state/nation. Well that really means the military & if they do not choose that route then they'll still have the advantage of all the skills we've given them. AFROTC has a similiar mission statement & the only reaon they exist it to create AF officers. The key CAP wants to get across to members & parents is that we won't push tem into the military or any particular service. We'll give them the skills & information to succeed, then stand out of the way & let them determine the path they'll take.

Super-secret hasn't been mentioned. WE already have national activities w/ PJs. I think CCT & combat weather are about core jobs more associated w/ the AE background we give cadets. It would be appropriate to give them exposure there. What was mentioned was a National Cadet Special Activity (hardly secret) to shoot for the AF ribbon the idea being to put something over the top of that event to make it more fun & give them exposure to more things the AF does & that their training applies to.

Quote from: DNall on January 21, 2007, 08:51:07 AMNot seeking legitimacy, seeking loss of stupid looking NRA badge that is pretty easy to earn in one day & with bad standards for how.

That's why I propose a CAP Marksmanship ribbon.

Quote from: DNall on January 21, 2007, 08:51:07 AMWe are training them for combat, and life. Don't forget that the cadet program was initially established to create a pool of qualified candidates to enter AF pilot training. The mission since then has only broadened slightly. Of course we publish a non-committal statement saying we're preparing them to be of service to community/state/nation.

No sir, we aren't training them for combat.  While it is true that the cadet program was originally established for the purpose of training citizens to be Army Air Corps pilot candidates, that argument doesn't work.  The goal of the CAP cadet program is just like that of AFJROTC: produce better citizens for America.  And I don't think the statement saying we're preparing them to be of service to community/state/nation is one of non-committal.  It's just part of the Cadet Oath. 

Quote from: DNall on January 21, 2007, 08:51:07 AMWell that really means the military & if they do not choose that route then they'll still have the advantage of all the skills we've given them. AFROTC has a similiar mission statement & the only reason they exist it to create AF officers.

The purpose of AFROTC is to produce officers for the Air Force and better citizens for America.

Quote from: DNall on January 21, 2007, 08:51:07 AMThe key CAP wants to get across to members & parents is that we won't push tem into the military or any particular service. We'll give them the skills & information to succeed, then stand out of the way & let them determine the path they'll take.

This is true, DNall.

Quote from: DNall on January 21, 2007, 08:51:07 AMSuper-secret hasn't been mentioned. WE already have national activities w/ PJs. I think CCT & combat weather are about core jobs more associated w/ the AE background we give cadets. It would be appropriate to give them exposure there. What was mentioned was a National Cadet Special Activity (hardly secret) to shoot for the AF ribbon the idea being to put something over the top of that event to make it more fun & give them exposure to more things the AF does & that their training applies to.

I think with regard to super-secret, Capt Moore was referring to people who wear proposed marksmanship ribbon and lie about the circumstances of how they earned it. 

IIRC, the idea of an NCSA devoted to marksmanship was your idea, sir.  You may want to include that in a seperate topic, so it's clearer to people.  Great idea though. 

The NCSA idea was the only thing I saw mentioning spec ops type folks, as I naturally took that as his meaning. Wear of a ribbon not correctly awarded is not super-secret, it's super-stupid.

As you say, paraphrased from AFROTC, they produce leaders for the AF & better citizens for America. That's pretty much exactly what CAP does. We do so by providing our cadets with the skills they need to succeed in military training & careers. The AF pays us to do this to create a pool of candidate from which they can recruit. Just exactly like during WWII when we trained youth to create a pool from which the AAF could recruit to pilot training. It's linear. Of course these same skills are very useful in the outside world as well, just as they would be if you'd gained them in the military & then came out to the world. The cadet oath is what it is to cover all those bases w/o freaking out parents & society into thinking we're running the hitler youth over here or something. Don't for a second think that the AF is paying for us to teach civics lessons though. Every penny they beg congress to give us is self-serving, and you should never lose sight of that.

NCSA for marksmanship: I swear we'd have higher recruiting levels. ... for cadets anyway. But Id also know you'd have a 'few' SMs apply to that as well. Any chance of having the ARA or Remington/Colt etc sponsor ?

Probably if we stuck to NRA & ran it under their youth program.

Best case I can see for an expanded program is levels of NRA (which I like indicated as a ribbon over the over the ugly, all too common, over-emphasizing the program NRA badges). Then maxing that out work on something to tie in to CMP. Ask AF for permission to wear civilian CMP badges or to purchase/wear AF CMP badges - can't see them turning that down. Also ask about the possiblity of changing the rules to allow CAP caets to shoot for AF small arms expert ribbon - which can be done the way AFROTC does it on the college level w/ non-contract cadets.

I think it's important if you do a marksman NCSA that you have a strong tie-in w/ AF. Otherwise those kids are going to end up in the Army/Marines. We don't do enough to expose them to the non-PJ special tactics jobs, which are AE related. Tey got some cool toys & don't mind practicing a mock airfield siezure now & then. It just sorta made sense ya know.

Quote from: DNall on January 22, 2007, 01:13:23 PM

I think it's important if you do a marksman NCSA that you have a strong tie-in w/ AF. Otherwise those kids are going to end up in the Army/Marines. We don't do enough to expose them to the non-PJ special tactics jobs, which are AE related. Tey got some cool toys & don't mind practicing a mock airfield siezure now & then. It just sorta made sense ya know.

That's a very good point.  Perhaps some kind of SP orientation school?

Of course, it would be much easier if USAF would just come out and admit that they are interested in the Cadet Program for recruits, rather than just creating better citizens out of the goodness of their hearts.  Because without that statement of intent, we will always shy away from the overly martial stuff, and towards putting kids in an AE T-shirt and letting them fly gliders.

Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 01:38:54 PM
Of course, it would be much easier if USAF would just come out and admit that they are interested in the Cadet Program for recruits, rather than just creating better citizens out of the goodness of their hearts.  Because without that statement of intent, we will always shy away from the overly martial stuff, and towards putting kids in an AE T-shirt and letting them fly gliders.

They do that & we're the hitler youth on page one of the NY Times. You can't recruit 12yos into a program the govt openly admits is even partially abut ebing a pipeline to the military. They might be able to make the point internally to our members, but it can't be formally on teh record that way.

Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 01:38:54 PM

Quote from: DNall on January 22, 2007, 01:13:23 PM

I think it's important if you do a marksman NCSA that you have a strong tie-in w/ AF. Otherwise those kids are going to end up in the Army/Marines. We don't do enough to expose them to the non-PJ special tactics jobs, which are AE related. Tey got some cool toys & don't mind practicing a mock airfield siezure now & then. It just sorta made sense ya know.

That's a very good point.  Perhaps some kind of SP orientation school?

Of course, it would be much easier if USAF would just come out and admit that they are interested in the Cadet Program for recruits, rather than just creating better citizens out of the goodness of their hearts.  Because without that statement of intent, we will always shy away from the overly martial stuff, and towards putting kids in an AE T-shirt and letting them fly gliders.

Not a bad idea. In comparison, the Navy Sea Cadets have the Master at Arms program (they are issued a badge from the Navy but can only be worn during USNSCC meetings and while performing MA duties) as well as SEAL team training (with warfare device), SWCC training (again with warfare device), and EOD training (yes, a cool warfare device too)

As you know, USNSCC also has flight wings (air warfare device), silver for solo and gold for obtaining a pilot's ticket. Caveat: The USNSCC does not have flight encampments as far as I know.

Quote from: DNall on January 22, 2007, 01:45:41 PM
They do that & we're the hitler youth on page one of the NY Times. You can't recruit 12yos into a program the govt openly admits is even partially abut ebing a pipeline to the military. They might be able to make the point internally to our members, but it can't be formally on teh record that way.

Good point, DNall, but it needed to be in a much bigger font, it shouldn't be missed.

Naval Sea Cadets...EOD training.... ID like to see a 16 year old diffuse a defective torpedo...OH YES

One other thing about a CAP marksmanship program: What would it cost to do such a thing? Those pistols and rifles are gonna cost a pretty penny, and like DNall said, it's going to get someone in an uproar.

And overall, what benefit does a CAP Marksmanship ribbon offer our members? It won't make them any better at ES, or AE. Granted there are a number of ways marksmanship builds discipline for youth, but those kinds of things need to be taught by parents, not CAP.

And another ribbon just gets buried within a ribbon rack, not even notable most of the time. Some people don't even like like you reading their ribbons, they get irritated (Which begs the question: Why wear them if you don't want people looking at them?).

Where is that picture of the NHWG Drill Team when you need it.  >:D

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 22, 2007, 05:44:30 PM

Quote from: DNall on January 22, 2007, 01:45:41 PM
They do that & we're the hitler youth on page one of the NY Times. You can't recruit 12yos into a program the govt openly admits is even partially abut ebing a pipeline to the military. They might be able to make the point internally to our members, but it can't be formally on teh record that way.

Good point, DNall, but it needed to be in a much bigger font, it shouldn't be missed.

Thanks, but my typing skills, or lack thereof, are so much more glaring in larger print. No joke on the original statement though. That's the reason the documents say what they do, but don't be fooled for a minute that cadet programs exists to create a pool of well qualified candidates for the military. The same can be said of AE engendering support for the airpower budget, and of ES saving money that's redirected to combat. Despite the propaganda, I think it's critical we stay well grounded in reality, and that right there is it.

That being the case, enhanced markmanship programs & activities that allow exploration of exciting military options are just the kind of thing we're supposed to be doing. The original statement spoke for itself (even with the spelling errors), but I'm adding this because I think a lot of people chase off at programs in CAP w/o thinking why they're doing it or if it serves the root cause of us being around. Same argument for over-focusing on state/local missions, those occasional messed up AE Sqs you see, a lot of things. Just stop & think is all I'm asking.

There's some reasons listed at the beginning of the thread. I got no qualms saying it's to get people excited about something related to military service. >90% of cadets I see are here because they want to be in the military & right now too. Quite a few grow out of it as they get older, but I think we put a goodly percentage of our cadets into service. So I got no problems with programs like this, and on that basis, just you can't advertise it as being that basis & the AF can NEVER say that out loud regardless of how true it is.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 22, 2007, 05:46:24 PM
Naval Sea Cadets...EOD training.... ID like to see a 16 year old diffuse a defective torpedo...OH YES

"Look, Ma... watch this..." (BOOM!)

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on January 22, 2007, 06:45:14 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 22, 2007, 05:46:24 PM
Naval Sea Cadets...EOD training.... ID like to see a 16 year old diffuse a defective torpedo...OH YES

"Look, Ma... watch this..." (BOOM!)

Sarcasm aside, don't miss the point that there are programs that are attractive to teens and the like. Isn't it true that teens want to get involved in "cool" things. Can you keep teens in the CAP program on the merits of D&C alone?

CAP marksmanship ribbons are a great idea. Tie it in with a combination of NRA and CMP if you will, use the infrastructure already in place. Don't reinvent the wheel, just refine it.

Junior level use NRA criteria and introduce them into the CMP program at a mid-level with information and encouragement to obtain the highest level, generally speaking.

Quote from: sandman on January 22, 2007, 07:15:20 PM
CAP marksmanship ribbons are a great idea. Tie it in with a combination of NRA and CMP if you will, use the infrastructure already in place. Don't reinvent the wheel, just refine it.

Why create a CAP ribbon for it? There are marksmanship badges that are authorized on both CAP and military uniforms. Why are these programs only worth something if CAP has their fingers in the pie? It would be taking away an authorized item on the uniform and replacing it with another.

Besides, so far no one seems to have answered  one question I posed earlier: Who's gonna buy the guns if we run our own program? Our own program is the only way to legitimize a CAP marksmanship ribbon. Giving an award for completion of someone elses program is disengenuous at best.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 22, 2007, 08:37:52 PM

Quote from: sandman on January 22, 2007, 07:15:20 PM
CAP marksmanship ribbons are a great idea. Tie it in with a combination of NRA and CMP if you will, use the infrastructure already in place. Don't reinvent the wheel, just refine it.

Why create a CAP ribbon for it? There are marksmanship badges that are authorized on both CAP and military uniforms. Why are these programs only worth something if CAP has their fingers in the pie? It would be taking away an authorized item on the uniform and replacing it with another.

Besides, so far no one seems to have answered  one question I posed earlier: Who's gonna buy the guns if we run our own program? Our own program is the only way to legitimize a CAP marksmanship ribbon. Giving an award for completion of someone elses program is disengenuous at best.

That's not the point at all. A CMP badge is very difficult to earn, and though you'd get an AF badge on enlisting, it appears you wouldn't be able to wear it before that in CAP. The idea is to give kids an early reward for a decent performance in an initial shoot, and progressively higher levels to work thru leading to something more substantial. The program itself gives the exposure to skills that'll help them in the military, and if we can work it so that after a pre-req level in the NRA program they are able to shoot for DoD qual & posibly even set something up for pre-award of the AF ribbon (like AFROTC does), that's a head start into the military.

The issue with the current badge is it over-emphasizes the importance of the marksman program within the cadet program (big honkin brass badge, little bitty spaatz ribbon) & it's just ugly on AF uniforms. Hence a ribbon was tossed out for discussion as an alternative way to display all the levels w/ clasps at a cheaper cost to cadets. Hell if you REALLY have to have a badge, follow AF's example w/ CMP & create a CAP specific badge to indicate the NRA levels & use the profit from it to put back into the program (see below).

Far as who would buy the rifles, I can't speak for everywhere else, but we already have them. Some money was donated a long time ago to help get the marsksmanship program going, & it's been added to over the years. We have anywhere from 100 to 200 cadets at an encampment & we're able to run all that want to thru the optional program. The cadets then buy the badges from NRA when they get home. If they want to progress further then they do that independently w/ an NRA certified person & bring us the signed info so we can post the award. I shot this same qualificaiton when I was a kid at camp. I think boy scouts can do the same. It's no big deal. The rifles themselves are quire inexpensive, and programs are available from NRA in partnership w/ manufactures to make it very inexpensive. Again, I can't speak for other places, but it we're set & it sounds like a lot of other wings are too. If you really can't work it out the small amount you'll need to come up with, try partnering with some other programs that will come in with their equipment & facilities to put it on for you.

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 02:20:52 PM
The issue with the current badge is it over-emphasizes the importance of the marksman program within the cadet program (big honkin brass badge, little bitty spaatz ribbon) & it's just ugly on AF uniforms. Hence a ribbon was tossed out for discussion as an alternative way to display all the levels w/ clasps at a cheaper cost to cadets. Hell if you REALLY have to have a badge, follow AF's example w/ CMP & create a CAP specific badge to indicate the NRA levels & use the profit from it to put back into the program

I think that would be the best direction. Perhaps ribbons with a device to indicate "marksman" and "sharpshooter" and a ribbon/medal combo for expert (I'm using the Navy/CG idea here) or just simply a ribbon with a device to indicate marksman, sharpshooter, and expert.

Create a CAP specific badge for those who excell and place in NRA/CMP matches.

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 02:20:52 PM
Far as who would buy the rifles, I can't speak for everywhere else, but we already have them. Some money was donated a long time ago to help get the marsksmanship program going, & it's been added to over the years. We have anywhere from 100 to 200 cadets at an encampment & we're able to run all that want to thru the optional program. The cadets then buy the badges from NRA when they get home. If they want to progress further then they do that independently w/ an NRA certified person & bring us the signed info so we can post the award. I shot this same qualificaiton when I was a kid at camp. I think boy scouts can do the same. It's no big deal. The rifles themselves are quire inexpensive, and programs are available from NRA in partnership w/ manufactures to make it very inexpensive. Again, I can't speak for other places, but it we're set & it sounds like a lot of other wings are too. If you really can't work it out the small amount you'll need to come up with, try partnering with some other programs that will come in with their equipment & facilities to put it on for you.

So, the infrastructure is already in place. What are the "roadblocks" preventing such a program (and the associated bling) from getting started?

We do the NRA marksmanship program at encampment now, as apparently do a few other wings, and award authority to wear the NRA badges, which are here: http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars (http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars)

If you're not familiar with that program t goes like this... doesn't matter if you shoot perfect, you have to progress thru the levesl in order.
1) shoot a qualifier, get badge;
2) shoot marksman, get dif badge;
3) shoot marksman again, get "First Class" attachment for badge
4) shoot Sharpshooter, get dif badge;
5-13) shoot sharpshooter nine additional times with a new bar for each one (just wear one)
14) shoot expert, get fouth kind of badge;
15) shoot distinguished expert get attachment. can also attach pistol/rifle/shotgun to expert but have to walk up the chain on each of those.

The program we execute is just light rifle, and only basic cadets & junior staff get to shoot (upper cadet staff is busy). That means people never get out of the bottom couple awards.

AFROTC shoots at field training. If they shoot expert they get the AF robbon, if sharpshooter or marksman than they get a blue & red ribbon that goes away when they commission, of course in order to go to FT they are techincally in the AF.

It true that we don't NEED a ribbon to replace the NRA badge, but taking the NRA name off it & de-emphasizing the importance of the program from a huge ugly badge to a ribbon would be nice - save some money too. If I had to propose something, how's this look (feel free to cut off the right side for simplicity):
(http://www.geocities.com/dnall885/CAPmarksman.jpg)

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 05:22:55 PM
We do the NRA marksmanship program at encampment now, as apparently do a few other wings, and award authority to wear the NRA badges

It true that we don't NEED a ribbon to replace the NRA badge, but taking the NRA name off it & de-emphasizing the importance of the program from a huge ugly badge to a ribbon would be nice - save some money too. If I had to propose something, how's this look (feel free to cut off the right side for simplicity):

Look's great! So, what roadblocks are in place that need to be moved in order to move forward with this idea?

Someone needs to write up a proposal with details including availability of the ribbon and devices to have sent up their chain. When finished, post it here and ask some others to do the same.

You may want to contact CAPHistorian on this board for advice/suggestions before finalizing your proposal.

One of our Wg CCs or CAC can recommend it to the national board for change, or we can sell the resident historian on here to pitch it thru the national historian to NB.

A couple things though. There's already a marksmanship program in place, in which we let cadets wear the NRA badges. So, what purpose does changing the bling accomplish?

I personally think the above ribbon looks better, removes the politically charged NRA name off the uniform (while still using their program), & puts something on proportional to the importance of the program... plus it looks like the AF ribbon, AF personnel will recognize it, and that's cool. I don't think it's that hard a sell since people that dislike the program get it de-emphasized on the uniform, and the people that do like it get a cool AF looking ribbon & potentially new life breathed into it since NB endorsed it again by making the ribbon.  

I'd also ask AF for permission to wear the civilian CMP badges or to purchase & wear the AF CMP badges for thsoe that qualify as civilians (both senior & cadet). A lot of cops shoot in those things & a lot of people would go try if they could get a badge out of it. It doesn't serve any purpose for seniors other than morale & to have them in the program to support cadets that want to get in it to earn a badge now that they can keep wearing when they go in the military.

My original intent in the thread tough was to figure out how we could expand the marksmanship program for the sake of cadet recruiting & retention, as well as helping them out if they go to the military. There's ideas above about how to get money for rifles to get started. And, I was hoping for a marksmanship focused NCSA. I was thinking hosted by a Special Tactics type unit so they could also get some exposure to Combat Controllers & Combat Weater, in addition to PJs that they can already see at PJOC; but, a program with SF might be fine too, it'd certainly be easier to arrange. If we could figure out w/ AF a way for them to shoot the AF program to earn the AF ribbon, which they could then carry into service, or even a dif ribbon that would convert to the AF ribbon on enlisting, that'd be real cool too. Of course that would involve M9/M16 shooting for expert over the course of the week they're there & intermingled with some AF career exploration stuff. Just liability factors to worry about.

I can get the ball rolling on some of this w/ CAC, but which facet of this are we trying to accomplish? And how can I sell it?

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 06:04:48 PM
One of our Wg CCs or CAC can recommend it to the national board for change, or we can sell the resident historian on here to pitch it thru the national historian to NB.

Excellent

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 06:04:48 PM
A couple things though. There's already a marksmanship program in place, in which we let cadets wear the NRA badges. So, what purpose does changing the bling accomplish?

Generally, I think the idea of "ownership" within the program is important. While the NRA badges are great (NRA is great!!), A CAP specific ribbon would serve to provide that ownership.

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 06:04:48 PM
I personally think the above ribbon looks better, removes the politically charged NRA name off the uniform

Unfortunate, but true.

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 06:04:48 PM
It looks like the AF ribbon, AF personnel will recognize it, and that's cool. I don't think it's that hard a sell since people that dislike the program get it de-emphasized on the uniform, and the people that do like it get a cool AF looking ribbon & potentially new life breathed into it since NB endorsed it again by making the ribbon.

I concur! ;D

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 06:04:48 PM
I'd also ask AF for permission to wear the civilian CMP badges or to purchase & wear the AF CMP badges for thsoe that qualify as civilians (both senior & cadet). A lot of cops shoot in those things & a lot of people would go try if they could get a badge out of it. It doesn't serve any purpose for seniors other than morale & to have them in the program to support cadets that want to get in it to earn a badge now that they can keep wearing when they go in the military.

Excellent! Aim High! (pun intended)

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 06:04:48 PM
My original intent in the thread tough was to figure out how we could expand the marksmanship program for the sake of cadet recruiting & retention, as well as helping them out if they go to the military. There's ideas above about how to get money for rifles to get started. And, I was hoping for a marksmanship focused NCSA. I was thinking hosted by a Special Tactics type unit so they could also get some exposure to Combat Controllers & Combat Weater, in addition to PJs that they can already see at PJOC; but, a program with SF might be fine too, it'd certainly be easier to arrange. If we could figure out w/ AF a way for them to shoot the AF program to earn the AF ribbon, which they could then carry into service, or even a dif ribbon that would convert to the AF ribbon on enlisting, that'd be real cool too. Of course that would involve M9/M16 shooting for expert over the course of the week they're there & intermingled with some AF career exploration stuff. Just liability factors to worry about.

All teriffic ideas. Where are the "roadblocks"?

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 06:04:48 PM
I can get the ball rolling on some of this w/ CAC, but which facet of this are we trying to accomplish? And how can I sell it?

I want it all!
;D

I have several cadets in my unit wearing the NRA badges on their shirts since they do not have service coats. They earned them using pistols not rifles.

I think the ribbon idea looks more Air Force and less Army, hence I like the idea. I would drop the Marksman levels device, though. Not all courses/section/types use them.

Another nice thing about the NRA program is you can use air rifles and pistols to complete it. That helps reduce the cost.

Alright, I'll be at a CAC meeting Saturday. One of the Wg reps to region CAC will be there & I'm working with him on a couple other projects. I'll talk to him about it. I don't know how CAC or cadets in general would feel about this though. They love the bling, and they already get lots of ribbons.

The attachments I have to look around, but I'm pretty sure they're avail from an existing source. The ribbons would be new.

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 06:04:48 PM

I'd also ask AF for permission to wear the civilian CMP badges or to purchase & wear the AF CMP badges for thsoe that qualify as civilians (both senior & cadet). A lot of cops shoot in those things & a lot of people would go try if they could get a badge out of it. It doesn't serve any purpose for seniors other than morale & to have them in the program to support cadets that want to get in it to earn a badge now that they can keep wearing when they go in the military.

The part I emphasized I could get on board with. The civilian flavor CMP badges are issued upon completion of the various requirements, so the individuals completing them have the badges already. Under this proposal, they don't have to buy anything new. And considering uniforms, it's always nice when you don't have to buy anything new.

And as long as those CMP badges would be authorized for CMP program accomplishments, I guess I wouldn't have any problems with a marksmanship ribbon for completion of different programs. But no need to replace an existing programs award with something that says "Civil Air Patrol" on it. It diminishes the original accomplishment.

Overall, I'd say do it for the general membership. There might be a few seniors interested in it, and that could be a draw in itself. I'd be interested myself, but more out of enjoyment of shooting in general, rather than just getting a new ribbon.

I don't have any issues with NRA, but it is a politically charged organization with the public at large. But a program could actually teach people that guns themselves are not bad. It's the criminals using them, or that force their use, that are a problem.

DNall, I think it would be better with just S and E clasps instead of the ones in the pics.  JMHO.

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 05:22:55 PMIf you're not familiar with that program t goes like this... doesn't matter if you shoot perfect, you have to progress thru the levesl in order.
1) shoot a qualifier, get badge;
2) shoot marksman, get dif badge;
3) shoot marksman again, get "First Class" attachment for badge
4) shoot Sharpshooter, get dif badge;
5-13) shoot sharpshooter nine additional times with a new bar for each one (just wear one)
14) shoot expert, get fouth kind of badge;
15) shoot distinguished expert get attachment. can also attach pistol/rifle/shotgun to expert but have to walk up the chain on each of those.

The program we execute is just light rifle...

Not to be too much of a stickler here, but that course of progression isn't "Light Rifle", but is probably 4-Position Rifle or American Rifleman (3-position).  Light Rifle, like most of the NRA marksmanship programs, doesn't go through the Sharpshooter bars 1-9.  There are some courses, like High Power Sport Rifle, that top-out at Expert.

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 05:22:55 PMIt true that we don't NEED a ribbon to replace the NRA badge, but taking the NRA name off it & de-emphasizing the importance of the program from a huge ugly badge to a ribbon would be nice - save some money too. If I had to propose something, how's this look (feel free to cut off the right side for simplicity):
(http://www.geocities.com/dnall885/CAPmarksman.jpg)

If you insist on ditching the NRA badges in favor of a CAP ribbon, I'd recommend against creating new ribbon attachments because of manufacturing costs and deviation from the established standard of CAP attachments.  Do something based on the NRA ratings using the existing attachments:

Pro Marksman = Ribbon
Marksman = Ribbon + Bronze Star
Marksman 1st Class = Ribbon + 2 Bronze Stars
Sharpshooter = Ribbon + 3 Bronze Stars
Expert = Ribbon + Silver Star
Distinguished Expert = Ribbon + 2 Silver Stars

Forget the "bar" steps for Sharpshooters... one bar, or nine, they are still Sharpshooters.  :P


Don't forget that a lot of rifle and gun clubs have youth shooting programs and would love to host a CAP program, except that CAP is such a well-kept secret that they've never heard of us.  When it comes to fundraising, you do it just like any other money-making scheme, just with a different goal.  Look for major donations from gun clubs or deep discounts from local gun stores. 

For a unit shooting program, go with the less-expensive firearms.  While it would be nice to have top quality equipment that would allow everyone to become a Distinguished Marksman, go for the low-hanging fruit.  Less expensive equipment will allow more people to get to Sharpshooter, or maybe Expert.  I've qualified in several shooting categories with rifles in a price range from my $3,000 sniper rifle to my $5 Glendale .22 purchased 10 years ago at an estate auction.  Funny thing, that $5 rifle has gotten me to Expert and I only have a few legs to go in completing Distinguished Expert.

Last step is to drum up support from the cadets.  Sure, a lot of cadets say they want to do shooting, but sometimes it's like pulling teeth to get them to show up.

^and the expert weighs in, thanks!!

Vote for civilian CMP badge, got it. No problem there. I don't think the AF would allow us to get the AF badges anyway, and the CMP ones aren't bad, even if they're gold w/ the Army shield prominantly on them.

Quote from: MIKE on January 23, 2007, 09:55:28 PM
DNall, I think it would be better with just S and E clasps instead of the ones in the pics.  JMHO.

Quote from: baronet68 on January 23, 2007, 10:00:18 PM
If you insist on ditching the NRA badges in favor of a CAP ribbon, I'd recommend against creating new ribbon attachments because of manufacturing costs and deviation from the established standard of CAP attachments.  Do something based on the NRA ratings using the existing attachments:

Pro Marksman = Ribbon
Marksman = Ribbon + Bronze Star
Marksman 1st Class = Ribbon + 2 Bronze Stars
Sharpshooter = Ribbon + 3 Bronze Stars
Expert = Ribbon + Silver Star
Distinguished Expert = Ribbon + 2 Silver Stars

The bars shown are avail as shown from a seperate manufacture for like 20 cents a piece. Gotta go look it up later tonight, but it's not something we'd be going out to make, otherwise I wouldn't have put it on, or at least it'd be chromed up to match every other AF thing. I got no problem with the above star system either. R/P doesn't work, their's shotgun also & air rifle. Plus that only shows what you got it for, not the level you're at, which would be the bigger thing.

How did a simple thing like suggesting a cadet firearms training program end up being all these comments and suggestions about badges and ribbons? Why not go back to figuring out if a firearms program would be of value, and how to get started and leave the bling out of it?

The bling and the bang go hand in hand. It's about a para-military organization. We wear a resume on our shirts. Be proud of your accomplishments, otherwise I suggest that you go shoot with the Boyscouts (sorry BSA, no disrespect meant) ;D

You are right though, about getting the program started I mean. We're jumping ahead of ourselves in getting the bling. We still need to get major support for the bang!!

There are programs in place, do we need to consolidate them or choose/modify one particular program?

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 22, 2007, 05:50:35 PM
One other thing about a CAP marksmanship program: What would it cost to do such a thing? Those pistols and rifles are gonna cost a pretty penny, and like DNall said, it's going to get someone in an uproar.

Any bona fide NRA sponsored range will have a youth rifle program. Our cadets can participate free of charge,and all rifles, ammo, targets, range time and volunteer coaches are provided by the range members.( Through NRA programs) Our cadets have an open invitation to come and shoot any time at a local range on Youth Day (the first Saturday of every month)

Tags - MIKE

Quote from: BillB on January 24, 2007, 12:37:23 AM
How did a simple thing like suggesting a cadet firearms training program end up being all these comments and suggestions about badges and ribbons? Why not go back to figuring out if a firearms program would be of value, and how to get started and leave the bling out of it?

Sir, the reason is because the title of this topic is "Idea: CAP Marksmanship Ribbon."  My question is how did a simple thing like suggesting a CAP marksmanship ribbon turn into all these comment and suggestions about a CAP firearms program? 

Although I think it's a great idea, the CAP marksmanship program idea is probably better suited for another topic.  Besides, that makes it easier for a newbie to find it if they're interested.  No point in letting such a great idea get lost in a thread it isin't devoted to.

What idea? We already have a marksmanship program, or obviously we wouldn't be talking about a ribbon over the badge. Not much a stretch from there to revitalizing the program, insert NCSA idea for that purpose; CMP recognition to provide a higher goal to achieve, underlying concept to give cadets osmething they can carry with them to military service. That's all pretty tightly related, what's the problem?

Quote from: DNall on January 24, 2007, 02:21:30 PM
What idea? We already have a marksmanship program, or obviously we wouldn't be talking about a ribbon over the badge. Not much a stretch from there to revitalizing the program, insert NCSA idea for that purpose; CMP recognition to provide a higher goal to achieve, underlying concept to give cadets osmething they can carry with them to military service. That's all pretty tightly related, what's the problem?

The problem is that we need to recognize our members for an achievement that is worthwhile...I believe that the marksmanship "program" within CAP is a worthwhile program although some CAP members apparently have more than a mild dislike for firearms and training our youth in the proper use thereof.

Sure, the program needs revitalization. There are several great suggestions on this thread. But an important part of this program is recognition for the accomplishments.

To those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo (GSP or GaSP'ers), you can stop reading now....I'm done with you.

"Bling" is an important part of this program (CAP). Youth (and youth"ish"  ;) ) need tangible recognition for accomplishments, not just the pat on the back.

On other threads people spout "I'd volunteer even if the prescribed uniform was skivvies....or nothing at all". Ya sure, whatever. Why CAP then? There are great soup kitchens to help those in need (Yes, I've volunteered there too). There are many venues that don't require or prescribe a uniform.

Give us the marksmanship ribbon, or go work in a soup kitchen.

[/soapbox=venom]

Hey I agree with you, but I gotta play a little devil's advocate cause at some point I have to convince people that aren't on the same page.

Fact is we got an existing program that's there if Wgs want or allow it to be utilized. If not the cadet can individually complete the requirements. And they can wear the silly looking NRA badges.

That being the case, why would we need a ribbon instead of the existing badge, and why should we do anything with programming when this is the limit (interest level) to which it's being utilized now? I have to answer those questions & strong enough to convince people.

Most of the problem is lawyers, or the "GaSPers" (  ;D ) freakin out that we'd do anything that might relate to the military. Those are the same ones saying the point of the cadet program is to create senior members. Yeah right. Too many people buying the propaganda written for worreid moms. There's also some issue with using the NRA name, which is why I go along with a ribbon & I think I can get people who dislike the program to appreciate it being de-emphasized to a ribbon.

The back side of that would be NB just endorsed having a marksman program cause look they created a new ribbon for it that looks like the AF ribbon. Okay, that means the legal issues are BS & they want Wgs to get these things going, & lets get the NCSA off the ground as an incentive to advance in the program. Turn the whole thing into a recruiting & retention effort.

Devil's in the details though. We have to walk it past the gaspers & lawyers on the way thru, & I need ammo for that (pun intended).

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 11:45:18 PM
Vote for civilian CMP badge, got it. No problem there. I don't think the AF would allow us to get the AF badges anyway, and the CMP ones aren't bad, even if they're gold w/ the Army shield prominantly on them.

The Excellence in Competion badges that I've seen are in bronze and silver colors. The only gold ones I know of are the Distinguished Rifle or Pistol shot badges, or the International shooter badges. I can find pics all over the web for those, but the EIC suff comes up lacking except for the service specific models.

For the most part, we would probably see people wearing bronze and silver badges. Only the most dedicated will get the Distinguished badges. And the silver and bronze ones don't look bad.

I just meant not highly polished silver like other AF badges, which I think it really why there are service specific badges. No, they do't look bad though. I don't think you'll see many of them in any color to be honest, but it's a nice program for people to shoot for (more pun intended) & a way for adults to get involved that will have them in the wings to support the cadet side. Just trying to create a progression that leads to something useful.

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2007, 05:22:55 PM
We do the NRA marksmanship program at encampment now, as apparently do a few other wings, and award authority to wear the NRA badges, which are here: http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars (http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars)

If you're not familiar with that program t goes like this... doesn't matter if you shoot perfect, you have to progress thru the levesl in order.
1) shoot a qualifier, get badge;
2) shoot marksman, get dif badge;
3) shoot marksman again, get "First Class" attachment for badge
4) shoot Sharpshooter, get dif badge;
5-13) shoot sharpshooter nine additional times with a new bar for each one (just wear one)
14) shoot expert, get fouth kind of badge;
15) shoot distinguished expert get attachment. can also attach pistol/rifle/shotgun to expert but have to walk up the chain on each of those.

The program we execute is just light rifle, and only basic cadets & junior staff get to shoot (upper cadet staff is busy). That means people never get out of the bottom couple awards.

AFROTC shoots at field training. If they shoot expert they get the AF robbon, if sharpshooter or marksman than they get a blue & red ribbon that goes away when they commission, of course in order to go to FT they are techincally in the AF.

It true that we don't NEED a ribbon to replace the NRA badge, but taking the NRA name off it & de-emphasizing the importance of the program from a huge ugly badge to a ribbon would be nice - save some money too. If I had to propose something, how's this look (feel free to cut off the right side for simplicity):
(http://www.geocities.com/dnall885/CAPmarksman.jpg)

Sir, where did you get the design for the NRA Ribbon?  Did you photoshop the Air Force Small Arms Expert Ribbon, or does the NRA actually have a ribbon?

No, obviously I PS'd the AF ribbon.

Sandman wrote, "To those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo (GSP or GaSP'ers), you can stop reading now....I'm done with you ... 'Bling" is an important part of this program (CAP). Youth (and youth"ish"   ) need tangible recognition for accomplishments, not just the pat on the back ... Give us the marksmanship ribbon, or go work in a soup kitchen."

As you are an obvious bigot, I "sir" (term used VERY loosely) am done with you.

At least soup kitchens do some good --they feed the hungry-- whereas attitudes such as your's "sir" --- "... those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo ... I'm done with you"--- only hurt. CAP needs fewer members like this rather than more fruit salad on our shirts.

Maybe a personal visit to a soup kitchen would give you access to some brain food and some humility.

How's about a special marksmanship ribbon for ignorantly shooting yourself in the foot?

Quote from: Chaplaindon on January 25, 2007, 04:30:13 PM
Sandman wrote, "To those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo (GSP or GaSP'ers), you can stop reading now....I'm done with you ... 'Bling" is an important part of this program (CAP). Youth (and youth"ish"   ) need tangible recognition for accomplishments, not just the pat on the back ... Give us the marksmanship ribbon, or go work in a soup kitchen."

As you are an obvious bigot, I "sir" (term used VERY loosely) am done with you.

At least soup kitchens do some good --they feed the hungry-- whereas attitudes such as your's "sir" --- "... those of you who only like to wear gray slacks and polo ... I'm done with you"--- only hurt. CAP needs fewer members like this rather than more fruit salad on our shirts.

Maybe a personal visit to a soup kitchen would give you access to some brain food and some humility.

How's about a special marksmanship ribbon for ignorantly shooting yourself in the foot?

Pardon me Sir, you have a right to your opinion and so do I. If you feel a strong need to "council" me, I invite you to do so in a PM.

I feel a great urge to contact Major General Baldwin and Colonel Sharp to discuss your discourse, if you're in fact credentialed as a chaplian with CAP.

I was just going to mention something about Chaplains staying above the fray so they retain the ability to minister to everyone. That and the frequency with which I've seen several poping off at members over perceptions out of context & the seeming lack of understanding of the objectives of CAP programs while apparently only 9% of them have progressed beyond level 1. It' disconcerting to see & tests on's faith in that council when it's needed to put brains back in order & people back in the field. That's very disconcerting.

Quote from: DNall on January 25, 2007, 05:50:21 PM
I was just going to mention something about Chaplains staying above the fray so they retain the ability to minister to everyone. That and the frequency with which I've seen several poping off at members over perceptions out of context & the seeming lack of understanding of the objectives of CAP programs while apparently only 9% of them have progressed beyond level 1. It' disconcerting to see & tests on's faith in that council when it's needed to put brains back in order & people back in the field. That's very disconcerting.

I agree. I PM'd the good chaplian and invited him to discuss this over the phone. I feel that He did not understand the context of this thread or the subtle sarcasm prevalent within my post(s).

This might need to be discussed on a new thread.

Secondly, if you take the time and read through Chaplaindon's posts, you might find an interesting, possibly uncomfortable, undertone.

Quote from: DNall on January 25, 2007, 05:50:21 PM
I was just going to mention something about Chaplains staying above the fray so they retain the ability to minister to everyone. That and the frequency with which I've seen several poping off at members over perceptions out of context & the seeming lack of understanding of the objectives of CAP programs while apparently only 9% of them have progressed beyond level 1. It' disconcerting to see & tests on's faith in that council when it's needed to put brains back in order & people back in the field. That's very disconcerting.

Okay, let's take a big deep breath.
I hope that I haven't been one of the Chaplain's "popping off?"  I invite anyone to please tell me if I am? 

I think it should be evident to everyone that there are strong opinions held by those who frequent this board.  That being said, it also incumbent upon us all to reign in our public opinions from time to time and use personal messaging when we intend to confront another's integrity, behavior, opinion, etc...

I hope that we can agree that we should all comport ourselves as ladies and gentlemen and officers of CAP!?

Thank you Chaplain Bolden for the redirect.

I respect those members who choose to wear only GSP's. I only mean to highlight that the CAP is a para-military organization and those who do not care to wear the uniform and the associated "bling" might want to reconsider their reason to associate within a military organizational structure.

When people begin fights with Chaplains over uniforms...I think a lot has been said about the greater scope of our preoccupation with uniforms.  The uniform is part of it, but its not the all inclusive CIVIL WAR starting issue we make of it here.  Uniforms are supposed to be a uniting issue.

For God's sake...literally, end these moot and inane uniform discussions!  The only conclusion one can get from them is negative...so if one is proposing uniform changes and then "POPs OFF" at a Chaplain, I don't think any validity is give the proposal from it, but rather the opposite is true.

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2007, 06:25:54 PM
When people begin fights with Chaplains over uniforms...I think a lot has been said about the greater scope of our preoccupation with uniforms.  The uniform is part of it, but its not the all inclusive CIVIL WAR starting issue we make of it here.  Uniforms are supposed to be a uniting issue.

For God's sake...literally, end these moot and inane uniform discussions!  The only conclusion one can get from them is negative...so if one is proposing uniform changes and then "POPs OFF" at a Chaplain, I don't think any validity is give the proposal from it, but rather the opposite is true.

Sorry Joe, the "pop off" came from the opposite direction.

And since this discussion has nothing to do with CAP Marksmanship Ribbons...

Quote from: sandman on January 25, 2007, 06:27:57 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2007, 06:25:54 PM
When people begin fights with Chaplains over uniforms...I think a lot has been said about the greater scope of our preoccupation with uniforms.  The uniform is part of it, but its not the all inclusive CIVIL WAR starting issue we make of it here.  Uniforms are supposed to be a uniting issue.

For God's sake...literally, end these moot and inane uniform discussions!  The only conclusion one can get from them is negative...so if one is proposing uniform changes and then "POPs OFF" at a Chaplain, I don't think any validity is give the proposal from it, but rather the opposite is true.

Sorry Joe, the "pop off" came from the opposite direction.

I know...but a Chaplain "pops off" at God when they pop  off at all.  

Chaplain have a great responsibility and purpose.  They have to understand that their position in the Cloth is one that commands restraint.  A Man of the Cloth is not like an ordinary man.

Its sort of like Boxing with the Bishop of Corpus Christi in a Boxing ring for exercise or sport, how can one possibly win? (especially if you are Catholic)

Quote from: MIKE on January 25, 2007, 06:30:22 PM
And since this discussion has nothing to do with CAP Marksmanship Ribbons...

Well, they are taking shots at one another.

Now, to refocus the issue...

ANy CAP Ribbon for Marksman ship woudl have to be unique to CAP, in my opinion, because a "knock off" of the USAF Small Arms Expert would be "poser/pretenderism"(or seen as it, by just about everyone) and a Civilian NON-CAP Badge would break the USAF style of the USAF STYLE UNIFORM.  Thus, either come up with a RIBBON, or don't allow wear of anything at all.

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2007, 06:35:08 PM

Quote from: MIKE on January 25, 2007, 06:30:22 PM
And since this discussion has nothing to do with CAP Marksmanship Ribbons...

Well, they are taking shots at one another.

Point taken.  :D 

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2007, 06:32:13 PM

Quote from: sandman on January 25, 2007, 06:27:57 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2007, 06:25:54 PM
When people begin fights with Chaplains over uniforms...I think a lot has been said about the greater scope of our preoccupation with uniforms.  The uniform is part of it, but its not the all inclusive CIVIL WAR starting issue we make of it here.  Uniforms are supposed to be a uniting issue.

For God's sake...literally, end these moot and inane uniform discussions!  The only conclusion one can get from them is negative...so if one is proposing uniform changes and then "POPs OFF" at a Chaplain, I don't think any validity is give the proposal from it, but rather the opposite is true.

Sorry Joe, the "pop off" came from the opposite direction.

I know...but a Chaplain "pops off" at God when they pop  off at all.  

Chaplain have a great responsibility and purpose.  They have to understand that their position in the Cloth is one that commands restraint.  A Man of the Cloth is not like an ordinary man.

Its sort of like Boxing with the Bishop of Corpus Christi in a Boxing ring for exercise or sport, how can one possibly win? (especially if you are Catholic)

Thanks Joe for elevating the mood ;)


On to the Topic: I'm strongly for introducing the CAP marksmanship ribbon and associated accrutrements ;D

During my design stages for a couple of awards, I asked Vanguard for a list of which ribbon designs they have that are currently available. They used to have a small, low quality set of pictures available online, but that section is gone. (It was on their main site, not CAPStore.)

Beth sent me eight .tif's each of which pushed 10Mb in size and are beautiful, full color, larger than life sets. They have a couple hundred ribbons available and, no AD military ribbons are on the images - at least as far as I can tell - but some current CAP ones are.

If you have a particular color scheme in mind, let me know and I'll see if it is available and put it up here. If you want the set, you need to have high-speed internet or you'll spend the rest of the month receiving them. If you want the set, pm me.

DNall's design is not available.

Quote from: arajca on January 25, 2007, 06:42:54 PM
During my design stages for a couple of awards, I asked Vanguard for a list of which ribbon designs they have that are currently available. They used to have a small, low quality set of pictures available online, but that section is gone. (It was on their main site, not CAPStore.)

Beth sent me eight .tif's each of which pushed 10Mb in size and are beautiful, full color, larger than life sets. They have a couple hundred ribbons available and, no AD military ribbons are on the images - at least as far as I can tell - but some current CAP ones are.

If you have a particular color scheme in mind, let me know and I'll see if it is available and put it up here. If you want the set, you need to have high-speed internet or you'll spend the rest of the month receiving them. If you want the set, pm me.

DNall's design is not available.

I tried to look for the same images on vanguardmil.com but to no avail as they have revamped their website.

I like DNall's design, but the loom setup probably is costly. I would feel comfortable with selecting a ribbon from those already available for school spirit/ROTC etc.

As a Navy (former Army) person, I wouldn't mind suggesting the Navy scheme for accrutrements: plain ribbon for marksman; "S" for sharpshooter; "E" for expert. If there exists a need to add additional "levels" I would suggest adding a silver and/or bronze star with the "S" or "E".

Here are a couple samples from the Vanguard files...

These are the actual size of the images from Vanguard.

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2007, 06:35:08 PM
ANy CAP Ribbon for Marksman ship woudl have to be unique to CAP, in my opinion, because a "knock off" of the USAF Small Arms Expert would be "poser/pretenderism"(or seen as it, by just about everyone) and a Civilian NON-CAP Badge would break the USAF style of the USAF STYLE UNIFORM.  Thus, either come up with a RIBBON, or don't allow wear of anything at all.

Most of the CMP program badges are military in style, as the agency that runs it is part of the government. The fact that the program was initially run by the Army is primarily why their appearance is military "style".

The CMP Distinguished Shot badges are literally all the same, the only difference being the hanger. For the branches of service, the hanger states the branch of service. For the civilian flavor badges, the hanger has a bar with a "US" on a shield.

Here's a few links to the various Distinguished shot badges, it's a PDF file, should open alright in most browsers

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Distinguished_History.pdf (look at pages 27 and 28)

I've also attached just pages 27 and 28 to this post, so you can look at just those pages.

Took me forever to find that particular reference, been looking for something like it for months, guess it was my lucky day.

Quote from: DNall on January 24, 2007, 05:14:58 PM
That being the case, why would we need a ribbon instead of the existing badge, and why should we do anything with programming when this is the limit (interest level) to which it's being utilized now? I have to answer those questions & strong enough to convince people.

I think the badge is great, however, there are a limited number of badges one can wear. I think a marksmanship ribbon would be well received for the recognition without creating too much clutter on the uniform.

Quote from: arajca on January 25, 2007, 07:28:22 PM
Here are a couple samples from the Vanguard files...

These are the actual size of the images from Vanguard.

Try this...
http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=275 (http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=275)

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2007, 07:38:20 PM

Quote from: arajca on January 25, 2007, 07:28:22 PM
Here are a couple samples from the Vanguard files...

These are the actual size of the images from Vanguard.

Try this...
http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=275 (http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=275)

That just lists color combinations. It doesn't show the relative sizes of each color band on a ribbon.

Quote from: arajca on January 25, 2007, 09:21:45 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2007, 07:38:20 PM

Quote from: arajca on January 25, 2007, 07:28:22 PM
Here are a couple samples from the Vanguard files...

These are the actual size of the images from Vanguard.

Try this...
http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=275 (http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=275)

That just lists color combinations. It doesn't show the relative sizes of each color band on a ribbon.

Here is the part I was going to stress...

QuoteFor a custom color combination, please call Glendale at 800-653-5515.

The vanguard ribbon chart...
http://www.vanguardmil.com/schoolribbon.html (http://www.vanguardmil.com/schoolribbon.html)

Quote from: sandman on January 25, 2007, 07:35:44 PMI think the badge is great, however, there are a limited number of badges one can wear. I think a marksmanship ribbon would be well received for the recognition without creating too much clutter on the uniform.

With these badges, they're not really limited. I think these badges are worn on the pocket flap of male shirts, and about a half inch below ribbons for female blouses for every branch of service. On our service dress, it would be worn on the "welt pocket" centered (both male and female).

As far as CAP is concerned, there are no badges worn in that location. So wearing a marksmanship badge wouldn't create any of the "Do I wear this one, or that one?" decisions at all.

There is a limit to the number of badges that can be worn on the uniform.

Quote from: CAPM 39-16-3. ... The maximum of four earned badges is authorized for wear on all blue service uniforms.

Quote from: MIKE on January 25, 2007, 11:00:41 PM
The is a limit to the number of badges that can be worn on the uniform.

Quote from: CAPM 39-16-3. ... The maximum of four earned badges is authorized for wear on all blue service uniforms.

I'm not even going to bother with the arguments, because my overall view is: So what?

From a practical viewpoint, very few people wear more than two or three anyway. And if I recall, CAP does not presently have any mandatory badges. A four badge maximum isn't a serious limitation at all.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 25, 2007, 11:45:38 PMFrom a practical viewpoint, very few people wear more than two or three anyway... A four badge maximum isn't a serious limitation at all.

That's true, though I'm sure Monty would disagree.  :D

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 25, 2007, 11:45:38 PMAnd if I recall, CAP does not presently have any mandatory badges. 

That's correct, though I wish CAP made aeronautical badges mandatory to be more in-line with the Air Force. 

Quote from: Guardrail on January 26, 2007, 12:06:37 AM
That's correct, though I wish CAP made aeronautical badges mandatory to be more in-line with the Air Force. 

There are a number places I think we should mirror the Air Force, but there are numerous other situations where I don't think it's necessary.

Besides, the major difference is that when the military issues you an item, they can full well require you to wear it. I think that since we don't issue any badges, we shouldn't require wear.

Just my thoughts, YMMV.

Quote from: Hawk200 on January 26, 2007, 01:50:44 AM

Quote from: Guardrail on January 26, 2007, 12:06:37 AM
That's correct, though I wish CAP made aeronautical badges mandatory to be more in-line with the Air Force. 

There are a number places I think we should mirror the Air Force, but there are numerous other situations where I don't think it's necessary.

Besides, the major difference is that when the military issues you an item, they can full well require you to wear it. I think that since we don't issue any badges, we shouldn't require wear.

Just my thoughts, YMMV.

I once knew of a cadet so poor that the only way he was a member was that some Seniors put together a fund for his dues. His uniforms were DRMO garbage (this is before the free uniform program)   But he took the best care of that uniform then any other cadet or senior and knew the cadet program backwards and sideways.... hes an AF E5 now, got in through out cadet upgrade program.
My point is that the free uniform program for cadets is truely a blessing for some.

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2007, 06:35:08 PM
Now, to refocus the issue...

ANy CAP Ribbon for Marksman ship woudl have to be unique to CAP, in my opinion, because a "knock off" of the USAF Small Arms Expert would be "poser/pretenderism"(or seen as it, by just about everyone) and a Civilian NON-CAP Badge would break the USAF style of the USAF STYLE UNIFORM.  Thus, either come up with a RIBBON, or don't allow wear of anything at all.

Just to be clear, the ribbon would still be for cadets, where emulation (as opposed to poser) is to be encouraged. That's kind of the point is to have them fired up about military service and equipped with skills that will make them successful there - recruiting/retnetion is a bonus. We just give them the skills & opportunity, not the shove in the back, and it's up to them to decide what to do with it.

I like the ribbon design cause it will be recognized by AF personnel & so will appeal to cadets, plus it takes down the all too common NRA badges & all that goes with them - frankly I think over association w/ NRA on the badges hurts the program. Making the ribbons is no big deal. We need a couple hundred a year in our Wg alone, I think the cost would be nicely covered.

The CMP badge, I think got explained The AF version is obviously better lookingo n our uniforms, since that's what it was designed for, but it is recogniztion by the AF of the same civilian accomplishment. I'd ask them permission to purchase & wear the AF versions or wear the civilian versions you're awarded for free, then leave it up to them. I don't think they'll authorize the AF versions. The point though is to give cadets something to aim for that they can take with them to the military, and by allowing adults to get that badge also we creat an infrastructure to support cadets going for it.

The NCSA is the capstone of the program. Reaching a prereq level in the NRA program come on out to SF orientation & see how exciting we can make AF cops look, and/or Special Tactics orientation where you can see how to be cooler than an Army Ranger while wearing blue & exposed to AE related CCT & Combat WX, both options as the backdrop to a shooting program.

Dennis,

Can't you see, its better for the Wings to do this at the Encampment or for Units to sponsor their own markmanship program through NRA et al rather than have wings/national expend energy, money and resources better suited to aviation.

If a Wing can supplement Unit Markmanship inititives with surplus funds...yeah!!!  GO for it...but a national level marksmanship in house CAP program is a tad bit extra at best.

Now, I beleive in a markmanship program...but I think it needs to be "outsourced."

Thus, either come up with a RIBBON, or don't allow wear of anything at all.  I think your designed ribbon woudl fot the bill nicely. 

I have to admit that I did not see your designed works until I got home.  The reason being that the server at my school was blocking the images.  Thus, my line "because a "knock off" of the USAF Small Arms Expert would be "poser/pretenderism" (or seen as it, by just about everyone)" was not directed at you.  I think my may have thought this and I am trying to mitigate that issue.

By "knock off" I meant the use of the USAF Small Arms expert with some device.  Your designed ribbon is unlike the original enough to pass, but in line with what the USAF offers.  It would represent som version of "tradition."

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 26, 2007, 02:17:39 PM
Dennis,

Can't you see, its better for the Wings to do this at the Encampment or for Units to sponsor their own markmanship program through NRA et al rather than have wings/national expend energy, money and resources better suited to aviation.

Yes! I'm not proposing anything different. Here in Texass we do it at encampment only, in Washington I think they do that plus some local programs for more regular shooting, plus individuals can go to an NRA range & shoot away. Only thing I'd change it to bring that more fully to the rest of the country still using the NHRA program just as it's used now.

QuoteThus, either come up with a RIBBON, or don't allow wear of anything at all.  I think your designed ribbon woudl fot the bill nicely.

Agred, I don't like the NRA badges. I like the NRA personally, but I know the political pitfalls that I think limit the program in some places & I don't like strapping all that on the uniform. The ribbon is nice & recognizable for what it is. You can debate teh devices on it, I don't much care just so they don't look stupid.

QuoteBy "knock off" I meant the use of the USAF Small Arms expert with some device.  Your designed ribbon is unlike the original enough to pass, but in line with what the USAF offers.  It would represent som version of "tradition."

'preciate it, I like it. As I said it's clearly distinctive, but recognizable to AF. Pretty good for five minutes anyway.

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on January 26, 2007, 02:17:09 AM
I once knew of a cadet so poor that the only way he was a member was that some Seniors put together a fund for his dues. His uniforms were DRMO garbage (this is before the free uniform program)   But he took the best care of that uniform then any other cadet or senior and knew the cadet program backwards and sideways.... hes an AF E5 now, got in through out cadet upgrade program.
My point is that the free uniform program for cadets is truely a blessing for some.

Personally, I would like to shake the hands of each one of those seniors that were clearly very selfless in their help to a young cadet.

And it's an example of how making a few sacrifices, or donations, can change a life for the better.

It also reinforces my belief that we should not require any badges to be worn. Leave it up to the member to decide how much they want to wear. This does not mean that they shouldn't mean minimum requirements for the uniform though.

I kind of think the operational badges (MP, MO, GT) should be mandatory WHEN CURRENT, and optional otherwise. Plus medical & chaplain also. All for obvious reasons. None of that need apply to a cadet, since it will never matter what their quals are anyway. The bigger issue though is that CAP is significantly expensive & that precludes a lot of people who may really need what we have to offer from participating. How about some DDR money for that.

Quote from: DNall on January 26, 2007, 07:43:12 PM
I kind of think the operational badges (MP, MO, GT) should be mandatory WHEN CURRENT, and optional otherwise. Plus medical & chaplain also. All for obvious reasons. None of that need apply to a cadet, since it will never matter what their quals are anyway. The bigger issue though is that CAP is significantly expensive & that precludes a lot of people who may really need what we have to offer from participating. How about some DDR money for that.

I agree...badges and other devices should be kept at a minimum if at all possible.  For me and my uniform I would rather not have to wear wing or squadron patch.  Rank insignia, chaplain insignia, name tag and US flag is simple, clean and classic.  Just my opinion.

Quote from: DogCollar on January 26, 2007, 08:04:13 PM

Quote from: DNall on January 26, 2007, 07:43:12 PM
I kind of think the operational badges (MP, MO, GT) should be mandatory WHEN CURRENT, and optional otherwise. Plus medical & chaplain also. All for obvious reasons. None of that need apply to a cadet, since it will never matter what their quals are anyway. The bigger issue though is that CAP is significantly expensive & that precludes a lot of people who may really need what we have to offer from participating. How about some DDR money for that.

I agree...badges and other devices should be kept at a minimum if at all possible.  For me and my uniform I would rather not have to wear wing or squadron patch.  Rank insignia, chaplain insignia, name tag and US flag is simple, clean and classic.  Just my opinion.

I pretty much do that now myself. I may add a squadron patch when we get one, that's a squadron pride thing. Overall, I don't wear a lot because I just don't feel like sewing it on. And I refuse to pay someone else to sew it on for me. They charge an arm and a leg anyway.

I do wear an Air Force badge, but being subdued, it doesn't present a serious offset of the uniform.

I think Dennis said it a while back: CAP already uses the existing NRA-sponsored program, so again, why reinvent the wheel?  Moreover, don't kill the program: it already exists, and has merit in terms of safety, and it's not a big factor in cadet training and development.  But I've always been a bit concerned about the mixed message that training our cadets in the use of firearms sends to parents and the public i.e., members of a benevolent non-profit humanitarian rescue organization who just-so-happen to be able to pick-off fleas with a .22 LR at 500 yards.   For some folks, it conjures up images of the "Young Pioneers," the communist-spin on Boy/Girl Scouts of the Cold War Era.  It's eerie to watch videos from the 70's and 80's of  nine year-old Ukrainian or Cuban kids field-stripping and reassembling AK-47s (blindfolded, mind you) with a speed and agility that would have given a Green Beret or SEAL a run for his money. 

Granted, kids want something exciting to do, but you have to keep it somewhat reasonable, or at lease be prudent in what is showcased, and how.  I remember going to a Wing Conference a couple of years ago, and an some scarf-clad cadets had set up a booth with all sorts of high speed/low drag rescue-gear: carabiners, swiss-seats, first aid kits, etc., which was fine: what got my attention were the toe-tags and body-bags (no kidding!)  If I'm a conscientious parent who's actually monitoring what my kid is doing, it's not unreasonable to ask "What exactly are you preparing my child for??"   Some take for granted the great responsibility involved in taking other's children under our wing, be it for a few hours, or a few weeks at a time.

Am I worried about parents reading this post?  I hope they do!  I have a child (who's too young to join) and I love CAP, but I'm a parent first and foremost, and as one, I think I speak for them when I address subjects like these. The scenario in the preceding paragraph was the first time I ever looked at CAP from a parent's perspective. Since then, I've never looked back: For me, the acid-test of a cadet activity is "Would I want my son to do this?" or "Would I entrust this Senior Member with my child's safety and welfare?"  I am happy to say that there are more "yes's" than "no's" to those questions because a lot of my fellow CAP members feel as I do. 

I'm not saying that we should abandon some of our more exciting training opportunities in favor of flower-arranging, but simple things like changing the program name to "firearm safety" (because that's what the NRA actually teaches kids) might help avoid some of the negative connotations that these actvities might bring.

There are currently more than enough badges and ribbons that cadets can earn from activities that are more in keeping with our organizational image and missions.  How come there's no ribbon for cadets to attain a 3.0 or higher grade-point average in school?

On a lighter note: have you all seen the latest issue of "The Volunteer?" Forget guns, I want my own Llama!!  (I'll name it "Carlito. . . .")  A pet Llama makes a great companion for those long road-marches, and means never having to hump a rucksack again. 

Do they eat much??

Quote from: O-Rex on January 30, 2007, 02:35:10 AM
I

On a lighter note: have you all seen the latest issue of "The Volunteer?" Forget guns, I want my own Llama!!  (I'll name it "Carlito. . . .")  A pet Llama makes a great companion for those long road-marches, and means never having to hump a rucksack again. 

Do they eat much??

Probably, but I know they spit like baseball players.

Quote from: DNall on January 22, 2007, 01:45:41 PM

Quote from: Dragoon on January 22, 2007, 01:38:54 PM
Of course, it would be much easier if USAF would just come out and admit that they are interested in the Cadet Program for recruits, rather than just creating better citizens out of the goodness of their hearts.  Because without that statement of intent, we will always shy away from the overly martial stuff, and towards putting kids in an AE T-shirt and letting them fly gliders.

They do that & we're the hitler youth on page one of the NY Times. You can't recruit 12yos into a program the govt openly admits is even partially abut ebing a pipeline to the military. They might be able to make the point internally to our members, but it can't be formally on teh record that way.

my dad wasn't going to let me join cause he thought CAP was like Hitler youth..but i want to be a Navy SEAL, so I want to go through USNSCC.

A nearly 30 months thread Resurrection!  Is that a record?

Quote from: lordmonar on July 02, 2010, 08:41:15 PM
A nearly 30 months thread Resurrection!  Is that a record?

Nowhere near. We've had 5 year threads come back recently.