I was looking through the 23 March 2005 CAPM 39-1 in regards to the wear of Foreign Military Decorations on the CAP uniform. Table 5-2 Senior Ribbons - Order of Precedence, lists the order of precedence as US Military Decorations, followed by CAP Awards, followed by Foreign Decorations. However, Table 5-3 Order of Precedence for Wear of US Military Awards and Decorations on the CAP AF-style Uniform, says that "all are worn above the CAP ribbons" and then goes on to list several Foreign Decorations including NATO Medals and Kingdom of Kuwait and Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait Liberation Medals.
So depending on where you look in CAPM 39-1 either we wear US Military Ribbons, then CAP Ribbons and then Foreign Ribbons OR we wear US Military Ribbons, then Foreign Ribbons and then CAP Ribbons. Does anyone know which order of precedence is correct?
Depends on how you interpet what are "military decorations"
One school of thought is that Foreign decorations earned on AD are "military decorations" and "Foreign" decorations are those foreign decorations earned at CAP time.
The other school of thought is that all foreign decorations go behind the CAP deocorations.....so the NATO, UN, RVN ribbons and Kawait Liberations all go after your CAP ribbons.
Right, those are exactly the two sides of the argument I have always heard anytime this subject was broached. CAPM 39-1 Paragraph 5-4b states that in regards to Foreign Decorations, "Only those decorations that have been duly approved by Congress for acceptance and wear by the individual may be worn". The primary Foreign Decorations that meet this criteria are those commonly awarded to members of the US Military such as the Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal, Kuwait Liberation Medals and the NATO Medals. So if the correct order of precedence is:
1) US Military Ribbons
2) Foreign Decorations earned while in the US Military
3) CAP Ribbons
4) Foreign Decorations earned while a civilian
Very few if any awards would fall into category 4. This leads to me to believe that the correct order is:
1) US Military Ribbons
2) CAP Ribbons
3) Foreign Decorations "approved by Congress for acceptance and wear by the individual"
I doubt that a concrete answer exists, just another example of the many ambiguities in 39-1.
Quote from: tjhumphries on July 28, 2011, 06:05:47 PM
1) US Military Ribbons
2) CAP Ribbons
3) Foreign Decorations "approved by Congress for acceptance and wear by the individual"
That mirrors one of the previous versions of 39-1. Probably the best way to go. With most foreign decs, they go below any US decorations, and CAP is a US entity.
Quote from: tjhumphries on July 28, 2011, 06:05:47 PM
I doubt that a concrete answer exists, just another example of the many ambiguities in 39-1.
That's not an ambiguity, it's an outright contradiction. It's probably a result of things being cut and pasted from one previous verison, but the contradiction was cut and pasted from a different previous version(not all previous versions agree with each other). 39-1 needs to be written from the ground up not re-written with a bunch of cut and paste. The carry-overs create the problems.
There's also other "authorized for wear" based on someone's say-so that didn't even end up in policy letters. Which is one more problem.
Personally I wear my Cross of Gallentry, Armed Forces Honor Medal, Vietnam CAmpaign Medal and the various foreign Unit Awards After my CAP ribbons which of course follow my US decorations amd service medals.
Actually if you read ALL of 39-1 section 5 you will see a table 5-3 which lists all US Military awards and decorations worn in precedence. Included in that is
92. Foreign Decoration
93. Philippine Presidential Unit Citation
94. Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation
95. Other Foreign Unit Citations
96. United Nations Service Medal
97. United Nations Medal
98. NATO Medal
99. Multilateral Organization Awards
100. Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal
101. Kuwait Liberation Medal (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia)
102. Kuwaiti Kuwait Liberation Medal
103. Foreign Service Medals
These are all awarded by foreign countries or organizations and to quote the table "...(all are worn above the CAP ribbons)..." Sorry no ambiguity on this specific matter.
Quote from: Ground_Pounder on July 28, 2011, 07:08:51 PM
Actually if you read ALL of 39-1 section 5 you will see a table 5-3 which lists all US Military awards and decorations worn in precedence. Included in that is
92. Foreign Decoration
93. Philippine Presidential Unit Citation
94. Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation
95. Other Foreign Unit Citations
96. United Nations Service Medal
97. United Nations Medal
98. NATO Medal
99. Multilateral Organization Awards
100. Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal
101. Kuwait Liberation Medal (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia)
102. Kuwaiti Kuwait Liberation Medal
103. Foreign Service Medals
These are all awarded by foreign countries or organizations and to quote the table "...(all are worn above the CAP ribbons)..." Sorry no ambiguity on this specific matter.
Didn't read Table 5-2, did you?
Thanks for the input everyone. I will wait for a non-contradictory, definitive answer in the forthcoming rewritten CAPM 39-1. From reading the conversations on that topic, I think I'll get in line, it seems a lot of people have been waiting for such a document to emerge.
Lt Col McEleney, I want to thank you for your service in Vietnam, my generation of Soldier has a great deal of respect for you guys and what you endured and achieved for your country.
Quote from: tjhumphries on July 29, 2011, 01:45:00 PM
Thanks for the input everyone. I will wait for a non-contradictory, definitive answer in the forthcoming rewritten CAPM 39-1. From reading the conversations on that topic, I think I'll get in line, it seems a lot of people have been waiting for such a document to emerge.
Lt Col McEleney, I want to thank you for your service in Vietnam, my generation of Soldier has a great deal of respect for you guys and what you endured and achieved for your country.
While you are waiting.....I've got this bridge for sale....big investiment opportunty, cheap.....cash only.....and in small bills. :)
Not that I want to belabor the point, but the list of foreign awards are only the common ones. There is a procedure, at least in the Air Force, where you can apply for permission to wear a foreign award. That's how I got to wear mine.
Quote from: tjhumphries on July 29, 2011, 01:45:00 PM
Thanks for the input everyone. I will wait for a non-contradictory, definitive answer in the forthcoming rewritten CAPM 39-1. From reading the conversations on that topic, I think I'll get in line, it seems a lot of people have been waiting for such a document to emerge.
Lt Col McEleney, I want to thank you for your service in Vietnam, my generation of Soldier has a great deal of respect for you guys and what you endured and achieved for your country.
You're welcome
I would think that if it is awarded by a foreign government in writing it would be fine.
After all, Audie Murphy had the French Croix de Guerre and Legion d'Honneur and the Belgian Croix de Guerre.
As well, many of the "Yanks" who served in the RAF/RCAF were allowed to wear British decorations on their U.S. uniforms once they transferred to the USAAF (Don Gentile, Donald Blakeslee).
The problem is that the chart of US Decorations was lifted whole cloth from the AF reg. It even contains an order of precedence mistake that has been subsequently corrected in the AF reg, but not the CAP reg (Outstanding Volunteer Service medal and the Humanitarian Service Medal).
Of course, for the AF, there was no need for CAP ribbons, so the foreign decorations come immediately after the US military ribbons.
It is something that definitely needs to be cleaned up and clarified in the CAP regs.
Thought I would post here in hopes that I am wearing mine right, which I think I am. I couldn't find a rack maker that did the offset, so I took a pic of mine for my sig.
Quote from: AC on August 01, 2011, 04:20:41 PM
Thought I would post here in hopes that I am wearing mine right, which I think I am. I couldn't find a rack maker that did the offset, so I took a pic of mine for my sig.
Just checking, you were a cadet before 1964?
Quote from: ß τ ε on August 01, 2011, 04:45:25 PM
Quote from: AC on August 01, 2011, 04:20:41 PM
Thought I would post here in hopes that I am wearing mine right, which I think I am. I couldn't find a rack maker that did the offset, so I took a pic of mine for my sig.
Just checking, you were a cadet before 1964?
It looks like he has a Vietnam ribbon on top so I wouldn't doubt it.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/Rack.jpg)
The certificate of proficiency is no longer worn.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 04:51:06 PM
The certificate of proficiency is no longer worn.
Says who?
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 04:51:06 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/Rack.jpg)
The certificate of proficiency is no longer worn.
That's not what the knowledgebase (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/capnhq.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1048&p_created=1064868336&p_sid=o2LLqsAk&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_srch=1&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MjI2LDIyNiZwX3Byb2RzPSZwX2NhdHM9MCZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9Y2VydGlmaWNhdGUgb2YgcHJvZmljaWVuY3k%21&p_li=&p_topview=1) says.
Quote from: ß τ ε on August 01, 2011, 04:45:25 PM
Just checking, you were a cadet before 1964?
Yep, from 1956-1958. Florida Wing. Good times as a cadet then! Right on Eglin AFB.
Already removed - slow down, gents.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 04:56:51 PM
Already removed - slow down, gents.
Mike put it back.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 04:56:51 PM
Already removed - slow down, gents.
I lost you. What's removed? The COP ribbon from the uniform? 39-1 states you may wear the highest cadet achievement ribbon earned. That was my highest achievement. I refer to my COP ribbon as my "Old Fart Ribbon" and I wear it with pride.
Yes, assuming you can substantiate it to your commander's satisfaction, you can wear it.
I popped off, then 12 people jumped in to tell me I was wrong after I'd already removed it. Mike put my
bad post back to maintain continuity.
Carry on...
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 05:19:35 PM
Yes, assuming you can substantiate it to your commander's satisfaction, you can wear it.
I popped off, then 12 people jumped in to tell me I was wrong after I'd already removed it. Mike put my
bad post back to maintain continuity.
Carry on...
Got my original COP cert, signed by Curt LeMay. And, yes, I have been accused of carrying on ;D
Does it have cigar burns on it? :)
Quote from: Eclipse on August 01, 2011, 05:19:35 PM
Yes, assuming you can substantiate it to your commander's satisfaction, you can wear it.
I popped off, then 12 people jumped in to tell me I was wrong after I'd already removed it. Mike put my
bad post back to maintain continuity.
Carry on...
There was a time it wasn't. Don't recall which iterations of 39-1 that had it, and don't feel like going through all my "back issues" of uniform regs, but for a time it wasn't authorized. I think it came back in the last six or seven years.
Well, at least I'm within the regs then! I look like that guy in another thread that didn't earn his, but I did earn mine. I sure wouldn't want to post anything like this if it couldn't be verified. I still like to be involved in flying.
My first squadron commander, who became a wing commander and held some sort of regional position, wore his COP ribbon as well.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 01, 2011, 06:07:14 PM
There was a time it wasn't. Don't recall which iterations of 39-1 that had it, and don't feel like going through all my "back issues" of uniform regs, but for a time it wasn't authorized. I think it came back in the last six or seven years.
None of mine specifically exclude it, and as long as 39-1 says you may wear the highest cadet achievement ribbon earned, I'd say go for it.
I currently have copies of the following versions of CAPM 39-1:
1964, has no precedence listing
1983, specifically allows Red, White, and Blue Training Ribbons and Cadet CoP if still available
1987, specifically allows Red, White, and Blue Training Ribbons and Cadet CoP if still available
1997, only mentions highest cadet achievement ribbon earned
2005, only mentions highest cadet achievement ribbon earned
Getting back to foreign decorations, too bad I can't wear these beautiful Thai PARU wings the Air Force let me wear. Not too many guys earned them.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/PARUwings001.jpg)
Quote from: AC on August 02, 2011, 02:09:17 PM
Getting back to foreign decorations, too bad I can't wear these beautiful Thai PARU wings the Air Force let me wear. Not too many guys earned them.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/PARUwings001.jpg)
The Air Force actually let you wear them? There really hasn't been an allowance for much in the way of foreign badges on the Air Force uniform. Did you have a specific authorization for them?
I know acceptance has been permitted for a while, but actual wear was one of those things the Air Force didn't like to do.
Personally, I never saw a problem with them being worn, it just wasn't authorized.
Yes, they were authorized. I had all the documentation and picture of the award. At that time, the military was proud of the accomplishments of their men. From the Commander on up.
Here is a pic of the wing commander awarding me the BSM, notice the miniature metal ones on my class B's.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/AirCommando/scan0002.jpg)
Quote from: AC on August 02, 2011, 03:32:41 PM
Yes, they were authorized. I had all the documentation and picture of the award. At that time, the military was proud of the accomplishments of their men. From the Commander on up.
I've never actually seen anyone in the Air Force wearing foreign badges. Never understood why the Air Force didn't seem to allow it. A set of jump wings from one country seems to be just as good as the ones from Benning.
I do remember a time when the Army forbid anyone who was not Benning qualified from participating in Airborne training in another country in any manner. That put the
IAS (http://www.airbornesociety.com/) and
FAT (http://marina.fortunecity.com/cyprus/33/index.html) trips out as far as earning foreign wings, at least legally. That stipulation has since been removed. Don't know if you could wear them after taking such a trip.
I have heard of some guys getting foreign wings on there own at some time, but, in my case, the training was mandatory for the accomplishment of our mission. I had a Thai PARU body guard/interpreter and we needed HALO training. There was a course of training set up by special operations personnel for the PARU, and I graduated from the course.
Quote from: AC on August 02, 2011, 04:08:48 PM
I have heard of some guys getting foreign wings on there own at some time, but, in my case, the training was mandatory for the accomplishment of our mission. I had a Thai PARU body guard/interpreter and we needed HALO training. There was a course of training set up by special operations personnel for the PARU, and I graduated from the course.
That is cool. What's really cool is that they put you through a local course instead of shipping you someplace else to come back. Use what you have locally, don't jump through hoops that you don't need to.
Judging from 39-1, it seems like you could wear them legally on the AF style uniform.
AC: What were you? A Combat Comptroller?
The only other time I saw a rack like that with master jump wings was when I worked with a Vietnam-era Combat Comptroller while serving with the Alaskan Air Command at Elmendorf AFB. We used to get into a lot of "playful" bantering back and forth at the time about who was really entitled to wear the blue beret.
If the Air Force authorized it, the CAP can't say no. Simply pull out your orders or what other documentation that made the wings official and make sure that it's in your records.
I worked closely with CC and the PJ's. I was on the original 1st Air Commando Combat Weather Team. We wore a grey beret, and getting that authorized really took a while! ;)
Hope you didn't call him a comptroller! ???
Quote from: AC on August 02, 2011, 04:56:04 PM
I worked closely with CT and the PJ's. I was on the original 1st Air Commando Combat Weather Team. We wore a grey beret, and getting that authorized really took a while! ;)
You're an Airborne Weather Parachutist?
Yes, used to be! :D They are doing great things now. Just got back about a month ago from seeing their new facilities at Hurlburt.
For those who may be interested, we have a website. You know, I am an AEO! Some cadets may be interested. ;)
At the top, mouse up there and I am one of the guys.
http://www.greyberet.org/forum/
Quote from: AC on August 02, 2011, 06:21:10 PM
Yes, used to be! :D They are doing great things now. Just got back about a month ago from seeing their new facilities at Hurlburt.
That's some hardcore stuff. Do any CAP GT stuff, or have you decided to leave the "in the sticks" stuff in the past? (Most old jumpers I know of have some pretty trashed knees.)
Quote from: AC on August 02, 2011, 04:56:04 PM
I worked closely with CC and the PJ's. I was on the original 1st Air Commando Combat Weather Team. We wore a grey beret, and getting that authorized really took a while! ;)
Hope you didn't call him a comptroller! ???
Naw, just typing too fast on my lunch break!
You guys are pretty hard core. In my Security Forces era, you guys wore a black beret and jumped into target zones to feed the weather telementry back to the base. The ones I met treated me with a great level of respect even though what I did to earn my blue beret was nothing like what you did.
VERY PROUD HISTORY! My wife's uncle did that in WWII, earning a Silver Star and Purple Heart. I think he was in Europe at the time after D-Day. Most people don't realize that the Army Air Forces was doing that stuff.
Wear the wings...and be proud of the others. What an AE lesson those are! What an amazing level of experience you bring to AE!
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 02, 2011, 09:12:18 PM
Quote from: AC on August 02, 2011, 06:21:10 PM
Yes, used to be! :D They are doing great things now. Just got back about a month ago from seeing their new facilities at Hurlburt.
That's some hardcore stuff. Do any CAP GT stuff, or have you decided to leave the "in the sticks" stuff in the past? (Most old jumpers I know of have some pretty trashed knees.)
Well, I have new titanium knees now, + screws & pins in my feet, and two titanium rods & plates holding my head on, and I can still pass the flight physical, so I say no to most GT operations! :-[
Quote from: AC on August 02, 2011, 09:52:55 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 02, 2011, 09:12:18 PM
Quote from: AC on August 02, 2011, 06:21:10 PM
Yes, used to be! :D They are doing great things now. Just got back about a month ago from seeing their new facilities at Hurlburt.
That's some hardcore stuff. Do any CAP GT stuff, or have you decided to leave the "in the sticks" stuff in the past? (Most old jumpers I know of have some pretty trashed knees.)
Well, I have new titanium knees now, + screws & pins in my feet, and two titanium rods & plates holding my head on, and I can still pass the flight physical, so I say no to most GT operations! :-[
But you can't pass the TSA guy at the airport :i)
You can wear foreign jump wings, pilot/aircrew wings and the other foreign awards on the USAF Uniform. You just have to be in the country that issued the award. I will give you an example. I did my AT at Osan AFB in Korea a few years back. We were told to bring our blues as they have an end of tour US/Korea banquet at the end of the AT. (They serve the Koreans traditional American food and vice versa. The Koreans downed our Cokes like it was their job btw) I had earned the Korean Jump Wings while I was in the Army so I rocked them out for that one day. I couldn't wear my Canadian, German, Thai, etc.. wings.
This should be addressed when and if the uniform manual ever gets revised. I think CAP members should be allowed to wear one foreign in line with the USAF regs, just drop the requirement to be in the country of issue.
And to AC. The USAF Combat Weather Operator that was attached to us my first tour in Afghanistan was the most high speed individual I have ever had the privilege to serve with. I even looked into the job when I joined the USAF, but I would have had to drive to PA for drill weekends. You have my respect for serving in a often overlooked and thankless job.
Thank you. I'm glad you call them wings, not badges! I remember when those badges came out for everybody, it seems, and we thought they were jump wings. The Air Force was giving them out like candy. :(
Quote from: AC on August 03, 2011, 02:47:25 AM
Thank you. I'm glad you call them wings, not badges! I remember when those badges came out for everybody, it seems, and we thought they were jump wings. The Air Force was giving them out like candy. :(
You mean the Occupational Badges? Every AFSC except pilots, navigators and enlisted aircrew has a Occupational Identification Badge.
Nothing special about them, you're not even required to wear yours if you don't want to.
Quote from: PHall on August 03, 2011, 04:27:05 AM
Quote from: AC on August 03, 2011, 02:47:25 AM
Thank you. I'm glad you call them wings, not badges! I remember when those badges came out for everybody, it seems, and we thought they were jump wings. The Air Force was giving them out like candy. :(
You mean the Occupational Badges? Every AFSC except pilots, navigators and enlisted aircrew has a Occupational Identification Badge.
Nothing special about them, you're not even required to wear yours if you don't want to.
However, AFI 36-2903 'highly encourages' wear of occupational specialty badges. In reality, the squadron first shirt would probably be all over Airman Snuffy's six if he or she wasn't sporting an occupational specialty badge... ;D
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on August 03, 2011, 07:30:48 AM
Quote from: PHall on August 03, 2011, 04:27:05 AM
Quote from: AC on August 03, 2011, 02:47:25 AM
Thank you. I'm glad you call them wings, not badges! I remember when those badges came out for everybody, it seems, and we thought they were jump wings. The Air Force was giving them out like candy. :(
You mean the Occupational Badges? Every AFSC except pilots, navigators and enlisted aircrew has a Occupational Identification Badge.
Nothing special about them, you're not even required to wear yours if you don't want to.
However, AFI 36-2903 'highly encourages' wear of occupational specialty badges. In reality, the squadron first shirt would probably be all over Airman Snuffy's six if he or she wasn't sporting an occupational specialty badge... ;D
Not really. I know numerous Air Force personnel that don't wear their badges except on blues, and sometimes not even then. Most of the time, you'll see the newbies out of tech school with them on, and a lot of the permanent party airman on AETC bases wearing them to distinguish themselves from the pipeliners, but other than that, it's not pushed. A First Sergeant has far better things to do than to give an airman grief over an optional uniform insignia.
As a retired NCO.....it was not the First Sergeant who was "encouraging" airman to wear their badges.
As an NCO I let my guys know that were supposed to wear their badges (on all uniforms) and their ribbons on their blues.
With the manditory blues Monday....this may have changed....but there are more ways then one to skin the cat.
When I put on MSgt the Command Chief came right out and told us "sew your stripes on your sleeves and go out and buy a mess dress". (this was back when we could still wear the shoulder marks.
There are many unoffical ways to push these sort of agenda items.
I had an NCOIC who was told (in my presence) by the Chief......"you know if you shave off that moustach you probably will win SNCO of the quarter". Next day the MSgt was clean shaven.....and he won SNCO of the Quarter.
It's not even just enlisted folks that get 'reminded' to put those things on. My wife is former 3C071->33S71, and now 17D. The 17D's get to wear the "cyberspace officer" badge:
(http://www.airforcetimes.com/xml/news/2010/05/airforce_cyber_careers_051710/051410_cyber_badge_800.JPG)
Many do not like them, so they were opting not to put them on their ABUs, etc. Her new commander told them all that they WILL wear them, whether they like it or not.
What's not to like.
Buzz Lightyear is a proud member of star command! >:D
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 03, 2011, 05:49:47 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on August 03, 2011, 07:30:48 AM
Quote from: PHall on August 03, 2011, 04:27:05 AM
Quote from: AC on August 03, 2011, 02:47:25 AM
Thank you. I'm glad you call them wings, not badges! I remember when those badges came out for everybody, it seems, and we thought they were jump wings. The Air Force was giving them out like candy. :(
You mean the Occupational Badges? Every AFSC except pilots, navigators and enlisted aircrew has a Occupational Identification Badge.
Nothing special about them, you're not even required to wear yours if you don't want to.
However, AFI 36-2903 'highly encourages' wear of occupational specialty badges. In reality, the squadron first shirt would probably be all over Airman Snuffy's six if he or she wasn't sporting an occupational specialty badge... ;D
Not really. I know numerous Air Force personnel that don't wear their badges except on blues, and sometimes not even then. Most of the time, you'll see the newbies out of tech school with them on, and a lot of the permanent party airman on AETC bases wearing them to distinguish themselves from the pipeliners, but other than that, it's not pushed. A First Sergeant has far better things to do than to give an airman grief over an optional uniform insignia.
Sorry, but I had just the opposite experience.
When I retrained into Public Affairs from Security Police continued wearing of what was then a "functional qualification badge" was mandated. My division chief then was a former SAC Minuteman Missile Launch Officer, and things like my SP functional badge lended me a different level of professional credibility not only in my duty section, but also in the field...just like his pocket rocket did in a fighter wing.
Years later, when I was attached to SP units, I was still considered one of them, and treated accordingly.
I proudly continue to wear my original issue ones to this day, despite the change to the new occupational badge.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 03, 2011, 08:43:13 PMMany do not like them, so they were opting not to put them on their ABUs, etc. Her new commander told them all that they WILL wear them, whether they like it or not.
I'd be asking when they would be issued. When a pub says "optional", it means
optional. It doesn't say "optional, unless the commander decides he/she wants to make it mandatory"(unless it actually does say that). A commander is supposed to be enforcing rules, not deciding which ones they're going to follow. It's "chain of command", not "cafeteria command."
Optional, like when your MTI says "now I can't tell you to get the USAF symbol embroidered on your lightweight blue jacket, but I can 'highly suggest' you do it otherwise your going to be the only ones without it at graduation thus looking like idiots" ;)
I've come to learn, many things are "optional", just some things are more "optional" than others.
Optional, as in "Wing patches are now optional", except you will continue to wear them.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 04, 2011, 01:24:27 AM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 03, 2011, 08:43:13 PMMany do not like them, so they were opting not to put them on their ABUs, etc. Her new commander told them all that they WILL wear them, whether they like it or not.
I'd be asking when they would be issued. When a pub says "optional", it means optional. It doesn't say "optional, unless the commander decides he/she wants to make it mandatory"(unless it actually does say that). A commander is supposed to be enforcing rules, not deciding which ones they're going to follow. It's "chain of command", not "cafeteria command."
Well....that's the difference between CAP and the USAF.
When the chief says "do it" you do it. Sure you could stand your ground and be a non conformist....as my TI said to me "it will reflect".
And when they give you a uniform allowance it doesn't need to be issued.
The way uniform allowance was explained to me was to ensure proper maintenance of uniforms via replacement of unserviceable items. My uniforms were issued yes, but the money for them was taken from my initial clothing allowance, so in a sense I still paid for them.
Someone with more knowledge please feel free to set me straight on this if I am wrong.
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on August 04, 2011, 12:34:30 PM
The way uniform allowance was explained to me was to ensure proper maintenance of uniforms via replacement of unserviceable items. My uniforms were issued yes, but the money for them was taken from my initial clothing allowance, so in a sense I still paid for them.
Someone with more knowledge please feel free to set me straight on this if I am wrong.
Nope....100% right. They gave you your initial clothing allowance at basic and you signed it away the same day.
If for some reason you got shorted an item at BMTS they actually gave you that money in your end of training pay check.
Having said that.....if you can't afford the $2 for a sew on patch and the $5 for your blues badge...then you need to go see the finance counselor ASAP.
Now....officers don't get a clothing allowance they have to just suck it up.
But they also have the unwritten rule of not wearing ribbons on their servcie uniforms.
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on August 04, 2011, 02:18:22 AM
Optional, like when your MTI says "now I can't tell you to get the USAF symbol embroidered on your lightweight blue jacket, but I can 'highly suggest' you do it otherwise your going to be the only ones without it at graduation thus looking like idiots" ;)
Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2011, 04:37:39 AMWhen the chief says "do it" you do it. Sure you could stand your ground and be a non conformist....as my TI said to me "it will reflect".
Perfect examples: command by opinion of the ethically challenged. Think about it.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 04, 2011, 04:30:47 PM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on August 04, 2011, 02:18:22 AM
Optional, like when your MTI says "now I can't tell you to get the USAF symbol embroidered on your lightweight blue jacket, but I can 'highly suggest' you do it otherwise your going to be the only ones without it at graduation thus looking like idiots" ;)
Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2011, 04:37:39 AMWhen the chief says "do it" you do it. Sure you could stand your ground and be a non conformist....as my TI said to me "it will reflect".
Perfect examples: command by opinion of the ethically challenged. Think about it.
No....it is called setting the example.
It is setting standards and getting your people to follow them.
We wear a badge to show pride in our career field. We set the standard by saying "I wear may badge....and you not wearing your badge lessens the impact of our goals....get with the program."
Of course it is "optional".......but that means your chain of command has the option to make it mandatory or not. They can say "no USAF crests on your jackets" or they can say "Everyone wears the crest" or the can say nothing about it.
Optional in the regulations does not mean your chain of command CAN'T mandate it, nor does it mean they CAN'T ban it.
Sort of like uniform of the day.....Short Sleeves Blues....no tie....no ribbons. But ties and ribbons are optional in the regs....if you wear a tie and ribbons then you are disobeying an order.
This is not an ethical violation....this is simply a different way of motivating your personnel.
And yes....it is command by opinion....welcome to the world........90% of the things you will be forced to do by your boss will be based on his opinion. You can stand on your "rights" and fight it....more power to you....but you can't complain later when you get passed over for the promotion or cool job.
There are times when it is right and proper for you to buck the system and say "this is wrong"....i.e. Rosa Parks and that sort of situation....but over wearing a badge or not? Pick your battles wisely young one. :)
Isn't it somewhat like State vs Federal law? State can set higher restrictions, but cannot loosen federal laws. (Such as the whole marijuana debate in a number of states right now).
Yes.
In a perfect world....if it says optional it means optional.
But commanders can dictate which option they wanted.
Black/brown/green (Way back in the day) T-shirts......leadership could say Everyone Black, Everyone any color but Green, or what ever.....and that was a legal order.
If you really did not have the money for it......let the chief know and it would get fixed (did this many times myself for airman who I know did not have the cash to get their badges sewn on).
So like I said...when the command chief said...everyone get a mess dress......he was watching.....and if you did not comply it would reflect.
The same story applies to non military duties. It was expected that all NCO and particulary the SNCO to be a member of the SNCO council, top three or what ever they called it locally. You had to pay dues....and you had to particpate. If you did not...and did not have a good excuse......it was not like you would get a bad EPR or get an article 15.....but it did reflect on you as a leader and you had to either live with it or overcome it if you wanted to progress.
Yes this all sounds smarmy....but as far as office politics goes...it is pretty tame. But you could see by peoples commitment to the "proffession" of being an NCO who was or was not going to move up.
And this goes to the idea of establishing a Profession of Arms. Jumping through the hoops and wearing the badges and symbols of our profession is all part of establishing and maintaining that profession.
Well said, sir. :clap:
Quote from: AC on August 04, 2011, 05:39:09 PM
Well said, sir. :clap:
Thank you....and let me say I have always admired the Para Weather guys. You guys rock! Thanks for your service.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2011, 04:51:30 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 04, 2011, 04:30:47 PM
Quote from: Tim Medeiros on August 04, 2011, 02:18:22 AM
Optional, like when your MTI says "now I can't tell you to get the USAF symbol embroidered on your lightweight blue jacket, but I can 'highly suggest' you do it otherwise your going to be the only ones without it at graduation thus looking like idiots" ;)
Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2011, 04:37:39 AMWhen the chief says "do it" you do it. Sure you could stand your ground and be a non conformist....as my TI said to me "it will reflect".
Perfect examples: command by opinion of the ethically challenged. Think about it.
No....it is called setting the example.
It is setting standards and getting your people to follow them.
We wear a badge to show pride in our career field. We set the standard by saying "I wear may badge....and you not wearing your badge lessens the impact of our goals....get with the program."
Of course it is "optional".......but that means your chain of command has the option to make it mandatory or not. They can say "no USAF crests on your jackets" or they can say "Everyone wears the crest" or the can say nothing about it.
Optional in the regulations does not mean your chain of command CAN'T mandate it, nor does it mean they CAN'T ban it.
Sort of like uniform of the day.....Short Sleeves Blues....no tie....no ribbons. But ties and ribbons are optional in the regs....if you wear a tie and ribbons then you are disobeying an order.
This is not an ethical violation....this is simply a different way of motivating your personnel.
And yes....it is command by opinion....welcome to the world........90% of the things you will be forced to do by your boss will be based on his opinion. You can stand on your "rights" and fight it....more power to you....but you can't complain later when you get passed over for the promotion or cool job.
There are times when it is right and proper for you to buck the system and say "this is wrong"....i.e. Rosa Parks and that sort of situation....but over wearing a badge or not? Pick your battles wisely young one. :)
Seems like that's part of the problem. Humor those above you and conform for your own sake. It perpetuates the cycle of "command by opinion."
Given the choice, do you follow the regulations (in a general sense), or do you follow the orders given below that level? "I was only following orders" presents problems when there were standing orders above that level that are contradicting (and published with far more knowledge and experience than the local level). You're first duty is to the organization (specifically, the Air Force) that you joined and it's mission, not to an individual that feels they are more knowledgeable than the whole.
Command through opinion, rather than supporting the mission is an issue. Wearing a badge, or purchasing a mess dress, is not supporting a mission. And having to order is another example of gaming. If you truly inspired pride, people would
want to show it. You can't order pride. It's the same principle as "The beatings will continue until the morale improves." It's funny, because it's an obvious oxymoron. But people don't seem to consider (or want to consider) the other oxymorons they face everyday.
My thoughts on the matter are not an issue of youth, I am probably a good bit older than you think. It's a matter of being raised to do the right thing, instead of the convenient thing. Granted, there are times when regulation must be carefully considered for the "right thing", but that is rare. If something is wrong, there are ways to get it changed. You follow what is presented at the top, don't pick and choose like it's a cafeteria line.
Pat, your examples are what happens in the Active Duty Air Force. A lot of that crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve.
Biggest reason why, no uniform allowance in the Guard/Reserve.
You got an unserviceable shirt? You go to your squadron who does a form for you to take to Clothing Sales and you get your new shirt.
You then take it to the alterations shop where they sew on the stripes your squadron provided to you for free. Your squadron foots the bill.
When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.
Funny how that works! ;)
Of course there is nothing stopping a member from paying for this stuff out of their pocket either, you just don't paid for it, but you can take it off your taxes.
Sorta like CAP.
Quote from: PHall on August 04, 2011, 07:31:31 PM
When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.
Another aspect I did not consider. But maybe it should be implemented. To any commander that wants something for personal reasons, pose the question: "You willing to pay for it?" If the answer is yes, then do so. If the answer is no, then it doesn't get done.
No....sorry that's not quite how it works.
If an airman who is given a LAWFUL ORDER that is contradictory to the regulations (please note my distinction here) his duty is to follow orders.
If someone up higher has a problem with me following that order...I won't be in trouble....but the bozo who gave the order would be.
The Command by Opinion that you speak of......is something that we always do.
We as SNCOs set the standards for the NCO corps. We maintain those standards. Everthing from not wearing blue jeans and t-shirts in the NCO club to wearing our ribbons and badges on our blues. It is the PROFESSION OF ARMS.....that we are creating.
The "right thing" that you mention is what we are talking about. It is the "right thing" to make sure all SNCOs buy and wear a mess dress instead of a Semi-formal. It is the "right thing" to insure all enlisted wear their AFSC badges and ribbons. Since this is not contrary to regulations it is not anywhere an ethics thing. Optional means optional.....but anyone in the chain of command can give an order.
First and formost we must follow lawful orders. An order that is contrary to the regulations in not necessarily an unlawful order.
Establishing and maintaining the standards of the Profession of Arms directly supports the mission as it is necessary to establish a professional military to accomplish said mission.
You are right I can't order pride. But I can stop practices that are contrary to the efforts to bring pride to the Profession of Arms.
One of the reasons why I hate the idea of short stacking ribbons is that it reduces the prestige of the "lower" ribbons. Why they may not mean a thing to the CMSgt with a BSM, DFC, and PH......the Good Conduct Medal means a lot to the SrA who finally earned his. When the Chief decides it is not important enough for him to wear it....he spits on everyone who has pride in his GCM.
Same thing with the badge. They may hate it. they may hate it a lot.....but they need to shut the hell up and get with the program....this is not about individuals but about the Profession of Arms.
Now the CMSgt or the MTI could spend the next hour and a half explaining the whole concept of the Profession of Arms to his audience.....or he can simply say "I Strongly Suggest You Do This" and press on to other matters.
Given the choice....I follow the orders of those appointed over me, the regulations, the USAF's core values and my personal understanding of the mission and its needs. When those come into conflict I seek advice from my chain of command.
I think one of our disconnects is that as a MSgt I was part of those guys on top. It was sometimes my job to find out what regs we were breaking, why and what if anything we need to do about it.
I can't tell you how many time I have gone to my squadron commander, told him why we can't do something, what regulation, paragraph and table we were violating......and was told...."Noted, Proceed!"
Maybe it would have been my FPOC....but it was all about the mission.
Likewise there were plenty of times we just ignored a regulation because it was "convenient" and "safe" to do so. Maybe that is my bad ethics show through.....but really no one ever went to jail over a non regulation squadron T-shirt or a Unauthorised Morale Patch, or Ranger Rolling their BDU caps. If someone outside our chain gave us grief...we told our leadership about it and followed their orders.
The regulations are the be all end all of leadership. Wiser heads may have written the dumb things.....but you would be supprised as some of the dumb things that those regulation writers do and continue to do. The CAP is not the only organisation where the reg writers have no touch with reality.
Your last statement seems to contradict what you said before.
QuoteYou follow what is presented at the top, don't pick and choose like it's a cafeteria line.
When you are an Amn or AB your MTI is pretty much at the top. He is trying to tell you how to get through your USAF career as a winner. When the Command Chief tells me to do something then again....he is pretty much at the top of my food chain. So you are saying at one time that we need to "stand up for what's right" but we have to follow what is present at the top.
That is exactly what I am explaining. The reg writers made it optional....my chief made semi mandatory. i.e. not really mandatory.....but it will reflect.
Finally I point out your youth...because idealism is usually a disease of the young. I admire those who have the moral gumption to stand up and say "No I'm not doing it, you can't make me!" I hate to listen to those same people who then spend hours and hours moaning and groaning about how they got screwed over.
When I was stationed in Germany 97-00 we had an Anthrax Objector in our squadron. I admired his courage for standing up for himself. I thought he was stupid for fighting that fight, and choosing his source of information poorly.....I hated him for [censored]ing and moaning when he got his Article 15 and Dishonorable Discharge for failing to obey orders.
I admire your and see your point that "we should be making people do optional things"......to a point. I think it is unwise to call out people's ethical and moral standing for making people do optional things unless you really know all the goals and reasoning behind it. I think it is poor advice to tell people to "stand up for what's right" with out clearly spelling out all the consequences of that fight.
Finally I think it is wrong that you disparage Command by Opinion when that is infact we put leaders in their positions. If we had a regulation that covered every possible condition and situation we would just need robots. We need leaders who know the regulations, core values, mission and their people and make the "right" decisions to get us all to the end of the mission.
Sorry for the long post......you touched my rant button. ;D
Quote from: PHall on August 04, 2011, 07:31:31 PM
Pat, your examples are what happens in the Active Duty Air Force. A lot of that crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve.
Biggest reason why, no uniform allowance in the Guard/Reserve.
You got an unserviceable shirt? You go to your squadron who does a form for you to take to Clothing Sales and you get your new shirt.
You then take it to the alterations shop where they sew on the stripes your squadron provided to you for free. Your squadron foots the bill.
When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.
Funny how that works! ;)
Of course there is nothing stopping a member from paying for this stuff out of their pocket either, you just don't paid for it, but you can take it off your taxes.
Sorta like CAP.
Well that's always one of the things I like about working with Guard and Reservists. They focus so much more on just doing the mission and going home as opposed to all the BS the AD folks have to put up with.
I have worked with the ANG and AFR but of course I was never one of them. So I can't say how life is on that side of the fence.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2011, 08:52:44 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 04, 2011, 07:31:31 PM
Pat, your examples are what happens in the Active Duty Air Force. A lot of that crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve.
Biggest reason why, no uniform allowance in the Guard/Reserve.
You got an unserviceable shirt? You go to your squadron who does a form for you to take to Clothing Sales and you get your new shirt.
You then take it to the alterations shop where they sew on the stripes your squadron provided to you for free. Your squadron foots the bill.
When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.
Funny how that works! ;)
Of course there is nothing stopping a member from paying for this stuff out of their pocket either, you just don't paid for it, but you can take it off your taxes.
Sorta like CAP.
Well that's always one of the things I like about working with Guard and Reservists. They focus so much more on just doing the mission and going home as opposed to all the BS the AD folks have to put up with.
I have worked with the ANG and AFR but of course I was never one of them. So I can't say how life is on that side of the fence.
There's another reason most of the AD crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve (we have our own crap! ;)).
Unlike the AD where you have to put with people for only a couple of years, you may have these folks around for 10, 15 or even 20 years or more.
You're probably not going to "out last them".
And we don't have to wait for someone to die to get promoted! >:D
Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2011, 11:44:25 PM
And we don't have to wait for someone to die to get promoted! >:D
Between people peeing "hot" on drug screenings, leaving because of work/family issues, retiring and all the other reasons people leave the Guard/Reserve, that's not much of a problem.
Not everybody wants to be a MSgt when they retire. A lot of people retire as soon as they get their 20 good years as a TSgt or even SSgt.
It's not their primary retirement and you don't start getting checks until you're 60 anyway.
Quote from: lordmonar on August 04, 2011, 08:52:44 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 04, 2011, 07:31:31 PM
Pat, your examples are what happens in the Active Duty Air Force. A lot of that crap doesn't happen in the Guard/Reserve.
Biggest reason why, no uniform allowance in the Guard/Reserve.
You got an unserviceable shirt? You go to your squadron who does a form for you to take to Clothing Sales and you get your new shirt.
You then take it to the alterations shop where they sew on the stripes your squadron provided to you for free. Your squadron foots the bill.
When Commanders have to actually pay for the optional items, very few of them are "required" for wear.
Funny how that works! ;)
Of course there is nothing stopping a member from paying for this stuff out of their pocket either, you just don't paid for it, but you can take it off your taxes.
Sorta like CAP.
Well that's always one of the things I like about working with Guard and Reservists. They focus so much more on just doing the mission and going home as opposed to all the BS the AD folks have to put up with.
I have worked with the ANG and AFR but of course I was never one of them. So I can't say how life is on that side of the fence.
True, it works that way with unserviceable uniforms, but my experience with the Air Force Reserve was not that much unlike Active Duty. The commander had more say than you think.
I remember specifically a commander, who up to that point, had a career of flying KC-135s in Vietman and throughout SAC, then spent four years at HQ Air Force at the Pentagon; and the wing-wide scrutiny he placed on everyone, to include measuring the letters on name tags, just before an ORI. Almost everyone in the whole wing had to get new name tags for their uniform....and that inspection: Badges were mandated without ribbons.
The sad or interesting part was someone you only knew as a tech or master was all of a sudden wearing pilot or navigator wings and you knew very quickly who were the rifted officers.
I was in a wing headquarters duty section, so he endorsed my APR. We were required to join the Open Mess, have various leadership roles on base and have active memberships with AFA or AFSA. It's actually on my APR. Believe it or not, things like the Legion and VFW were also discouraged because it meant you didn't support your Open Mess.
And it's not just the Air Force. I had a roommate once at an Army school who I thought was just another slick sleve doing his AIT after basic. He wore nothing on his uniforms but the basic collar brass and name plate. Turned out, after a health and welfare inspection, he was found to an E-4 Specialist with jump wings and a ARCOM for Valor from a tour in Vietnam. He didn't wear what he was supposed to be wearing because he didn't want to assume any NCO duties. I'll never forget the stink that caused.
Whether or not a badge is optional or not, the Air Force went to occupational badges a couple decades ago, as a morale factor to promote unity, pride and combat readines. People without badges were actually jealous of others who wore them. It was the same with the AF winged insignia on the lightweight jackets.
And it can be mandated even when optional. My security police qualification badges were issued. I even have a pair, regular and minature, still on their federal stock number cards. Those badges actually have "G.I" stamped on the back.
Optional or not, a commander at any level can mandate the wearing of a badge because it's considered a matter of service pride and morale. In those instances, the people who choose not to, are then in the minority and may be subject to other scrutiny.
I keep having visions of that deleted scene from "We Were Soldiers" in which the old sergeant is told to "wear his ribbons" by the overbearing 2nd Lt and shows up the next day wearing his cover,boots,two MOHs, and nothing else.
Except that the last people who were awarded two CMH's were during WWI. (One each from the USMC and the US Army). Last to be awarded for two seperate actions were during the Haiti campaign in 1915.
Okay, then a true story.
(From a Marine we volunteered with for Toys for Tots)
John Marine is told to report in his finest at his rack for the Commanding General's inspection. All of his platoon is in the barracks, and word is Joe Marine is at the bar.
CG gets to John's rack (bunk? I tried to use proper terms) and sees a MOH on the pillow, turns to (his aide? CO? PL? someone more directly connected to JM) and says, "next time you see that man, ask him if he'd like to have a drink with me" and goes on with the inspection.
Quite a few people in the Guard have two ribbon racks made up - one with state ribbons and one without, since they can't wear state ribbons on FAD.
Quote from: CyBorg on August 06, 2011, 01:06:45 AM
Quite a few people in the Guard have two ribbon racks made up - one with state ribbons and one without, since they can't wear state ribbons on FAD.
I would be included in that crowd. While in the Army Guard, I had a second class A jacket as I couldnt just remove the Governors 20 Tab. I also had a couple of "sterile" BDU shirts that didnt have the tab or the Rams Head Badge sewn on, so if I went on orders I didnt have to deal with any drama.
Quote from: MSG Mac on August 05, 2011, 10:44:17 PM
Except that the last people who were awarded two CMH's were during WWI. (One each from the USMC and the US Army). Last to be awarded for two seperate actions were during the Haiti campaign in 1915.
That's why it's just a movie.
Quote from: CyBorg on August 06, 2011, 01:06:45 AM
Quite a few people in the Guard have two ribbon racks made up - one with state ribbons and one without, since they can't wear state ribbons on FAD.
And I'm one of them. My "Guard" rack has 5 more ribbons then my "Air Force" rack does. And you can't wear your "Guard" ribbons on your CAP uniform either.
Well, as of 4-10-11 (military date), I am probably the only CAP member authorized to wear PARU wings. I will be wearing them for our squadron's annual dining in on 11-11-11, Veteran's Day.
If our Wing Commander comes, (She is invited), that would be an honor.
AC
Yes, sir. They are pictured somewhere in this thread.
AC
Quote from: AC on October 06, 2011, 05:19:47 AM
Well, as of 4-10-11 (military date), I am probably the only CAP member authorized to wear PARU wings. I will be wearing them for our squadron's annual dining in on 11-11-11, Veteran's Day.
If our Wing Commander comes, (She is invited), that would be an honor.
AC
I earned 4 different sets of Thai Parachute Wings. I was just informed very specifically that they are not allowed to be worn on a CAP uniform unless I am in Thailand. I also was told that they do not qualify as an Aviation Badge. Im dissapointed, but I will get over it.
I can post the email and replies from Suzie Parker at National if anyone needs it as a reference.
Quote from: GroundHawg on October 06, 2011, 04:20:52 PM
Quote from: AC on October 06, 2011, 05:19:47 AM
Well, as of 4-10-11 (military date), I am probably the only CAP member authorized to wear PARU wings. I will be wearing them for our squadron's annual dining in on 11-11-11, Veteran's Day.
If our Wing Commander comes, (She is invited), that would be an honor.
AC
I earned 4 different sets of Thai Parachute Wings. I was just informed very specifically that they are not allowed to be worn on a CAP uniform unless I am in Thailand. I also was told that they do not qualify as an Aviation Badge. Im dissapointed, but I will get over it.
I can post the email and replies from Suzie Parker at National if anyone needs it as a reference.
Did a websearch on it, have an idea now.
Too bad on that. I don't see why it's an issue, but if that's what they want to call it. We gotta live with what the higher ups say. Although, I think things like this need to be forwarded to the NB for a vote, and request through the Air Force. We are an Auxiliary with a diversity of backgrounds, I don't see why a few allowances for the nature of our membership can't be considered. (Of course, I don't see why the Air Force frowns on other country decorations. They want to be "joint operations", but it seems that at times, they don't want to
look like joint operations.)
Quote from: AC on October 06, 2011, 04:15:25 PM
Yes, sir. They are pictured somewhere in this thread.
AC
Went back through. Sorry, brain cramp. Been awhile since this thread was in the top. They're good looking wings.
Thank you sir. I am proud of them.
I did earn them in a combat environment.
I'm still a bit confused here AC. Who exactly gave you the authorization to wear those wings on your CAP uniform?
Because all of the stuff I have seen says they're a no-go.
Now diseased Col. Keith R. Grimes. Air Commando Hall of Fame member.
I'm sorry sir, I misread your question. My Commander here at squadron level.
CAP Knowledgebase http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1140/~/wear-of-parachutists-badges%2Fdevices (http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1140/~/wear-of-parachutists-badges%2Fdevices) specifically addresses this question.
The current AFI 411-02 specifically says that parachuitist badges are not aviation badges (AFI 411-02, 7.4.7) - Their definition, not mine.
Rigger and Air Assualt badges were authorized by the 98th USAF Uniform board in June of 2009.
Our 39-1 has not been revised to match current USAF policy.
With due respect, at one time or another being on jump status was considered aviation. I was the airfoil. I don't know where or when the current regs (USAF) were changed, but in my time we called them wings. Flight status and jump status kind of went together with all the other hazardous duty flying activities.
ETA: These wings were awarded to me for HALO school, not static line. I was already a static line jumpmaster, and then a HALO jumpmaster when I returned from my tour.
At the time, they did not have HALO wings.
Some guys made a couple jumps with our friends and got wings, but I was trained in theater for a mission.
AC
Quote from: wacapgh on October 06, 2011, 08:03:54 PM
The current AFI 411-02 specifically says that parachuitist badges are not aviation badges (AFI 411-02, 7.4.7) - Their definition, not mine.
From what I recall while active duty when the change took place, the jump wings were no longer listed as a
mandatory aviation badge, although they still held the same precedence (meaning that if you had another
non-aviation badge, the jump wings were worn above).
With the Air Force, I don't understand the disallowance. (And before someone decides to say that I would violate regs because I disagree, I wouldn't and you'd be wrong.) There is really no reason to disallow them, it's not like the Air Force has to issue them, and it would be a huge, practically no-cost, morale builder.
For CAP, if properly approached, the Air Force might permit some other awards and decorations that they don't permit their people to wear.
And I do strongly believe that there are many that don't want them authorized for the simple fact that they don't have them. I still people that get childish and immature if I even mention that I have Air Force decs. That's sad. We're supposed to be a professional organization, but there is a lot of childish behaviour that is not only tolerated, it's encouraged.
If a guy has foreign jump wings, I think he should be allowed to wear them. He earned them.
The only reason (IF I WERE GOD FOR A DAY) I would not allow them....is simply that they are a) Guady. B) Redudandant, redundant...you already have jump wings...why give you more because you jumped with some other contry? C) Not U.S. military insignia....there are lots of badges from other services that we can't wear on USAF (let alone CAP) uniforms why allow one from another contries uniform.
Other then that.....I don't really care one way or the other.
I must point out though.....your squadron commander does not have the authroty to authorise non-us badges. Need to shoot a request up to NHQ for approval.
Quote from: AC on October 06, 2011, 05:54:18 PM
Now diseased Col. Keith R. Grimes. Air Commando Hall of Fame member.
I'm sorry sir, I misread your question. My Commander here at squadron level.
Your Squadron Commander does not have that authority. Neither does your Wing and Region Commanders.
But you seem determined to wear them and nothing anybody says here will change your mind.
Enjoy wearing your wings.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 06, 2011, 10:00:37 PM
I must point out though.....your squadron commander does not have the authroty to authorise non-us badges. Need to shoot a request up to NHQ for approval.
I guess I will ask my commander to request through channels. It was suggested by more than one person on this forum that I should just ask the commander to put it in my records, with proper documentation, which I have provided to his satisfaction.
Quote from: AC on October 06, 2011, 10:16:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 06, 2011, 10:00:37 PM
I must point out though.....your squadron commander does not have the authroty to authorise non-us badges. Need to shoot a request up to NHQ for approval.
I guess I will ask my commander to request through channels. It was suggested by more than one person on this forum that I should just ask the commander to put it in my records, with proper documentation, which I have provided to his satisfaction.
Not dinging you......your commander should have known better.
Good luck.
I only want to wear them on my dress uniform for our dining out on 11-11-11, Veteran's Day.
AC
Quote from: AC on October 06, 2011, 10:25:28 PM
I only want to wear them on my dress uniform for our dining in on 11-11-11, Veteran's Day.
AC
Rats! Got me so flustered I punched the wrong button! Man, it was bad enough looking a lot younger in San Francisco airport in 1967 wearing those wings! At least I'm not asking to wear my Gret Beret!
Quote from: AC on October 06, 2011, 10:25:28 PM
I only want to wear them on my dress uniform for our dining out on 11-11-11, Veteran's Day.
AC
Then wear your military uniform. You're entitled to do it and there's no problem with wearing your wings.
Quote from: AC on October 06, 2011, 05:03:51 PM
Thank you sir. I am proud of them.
I did earn them in a combat environment.
AC
If I see you out wearing those PARU wings on Veteran's Day, I'll only have one thing to say to you,
"Great pair of wings! Wear 'em proud, Captain. You earned 'em"
Then wear your military uniform. You're entitled to do it and there's no problem with wearing your wings.
[/quote]
I took the ribbons off of it and put them on my CAP uniform. It's the wrong style. It is a CAP function.
I have seen AF personnel wearing jump wings...and AFSOC types get to wear "Ranger" tabs (if earned!) on the BDU/ABU/whatever other striped pyjamas come down the pike. In fact, memory's hazy here, but I think I remember an AF Lt Col wearing them when a contestant on Jeopardy! (Alex, I'll have Incomprehensible Air Force Regulations for $1000). He was wearing the four-pocket Tony Nelson uniform, so that puts it back a bit.
I have also seen military personnel across the board wearing jump wings they've earned with allied nations:
Canadian:
(http://secure.hostdeziners.com/www_supplysergeant_ca/store/images/product_images/7622.jpg)
(with both red and white Maple Leaf; not sure what the distinction is)
German (including a guy in my squadron):
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm75/thomas50931/scan.jpg)
Australian (UK/NZ similar except for SAS; I've never seen a US troop wearing SAS wings):
(http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee337/SpeedyHedgehog/EngAust.jpg)
Are all these people out of regs?
We have a very strong Airborne! code, we are a proud bunch, and we stick together.
A guy on my team collects jump wings. He is in the process of moving right now, but when he can, I'll get him to send me pics, and I'll start a fresh thread as aerospace ed.
AC
Here's a few questions for all those who insist on wearing awards decoration from every military service for any country on their CAP uniform instead of wearing CAP awards and decorations on their CAP uniform:
Why?
Are you ashamed of your CAP achievements?
Do you think they are insignificant in regards to CAP?
I'm wearing my CAP awards and decorations, I earned them too.
Notice that I am wearing my pilot wings above my military wings. In the Air Force, pilot wings go on top. Good thing I didn't earn Air Force pilot wings, I was already a pilot before I joined the Air Force! Thanks to CAP.
In CAP, military wings go above CAP wings. Now what!
Quote from: AC on October 07, 2011, 02:23:48 PM
In CAP, military wings go above CAP wings. Now what!
Bzzt! Wrong answer.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 6-2, Item 5If a member wears the US Military Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by competent authority.)
Then it will be worn centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on left breast. CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above other aviation badges.
emphasis mine.
Quote from: arajca on October 07, 2011, 02:16:57 PM
Here's a few questions for all those who insist on wearing awards decoration from every military service for any country on their CAP uniform instead of wearing CAP awards and decorations on their CAP uniform:
Why?
Are you ashamed of your CAP achievements?
Do you think they are insignificant in regards to CAP?
Show me one person here who wears everything but CAP decorations on their uniform. Either you're excessively exaggerating, or you have a serious misimpression of people that have other than CAP service.
ALL of them are significant. Ribbons are a freaking
resume, not any form of rank, and they
do not confer any kind of superiority over any one. I am just as proud of what I've accomplished in CAP as what I have in the military. I wear both of them proudly.
I've answered your questions, so here's a couple of mine: Are you ashamed of your CAP achievements compared to those that have military ones? Do
you feel they are insignificant? Or is it a case of being ashamed of our military, and think that it diminishes CAP as a whole somehow? I'm not saying you think these things, it's a legitimate question, I'm honestly asking.
I have seen a few CAP personnel that seem to think that military personnel shouldn't be allowed to display their decorations. I have legitimately heard CAP members say "It's not fair that they can wear their military 'stuff'. I
earned mine, they just came in wearing theirs." Seems like they're missing something. I wouldn't want to work with anyone guilty of such an outlook. I've even seen it when a cadet transfers in with more ribbons/badges/patches/bling than most of the ones present at the unit, so it's not just "those military ribbons."
It comes across (to me anyway) that if someone didn't see it, then it didn't really happen. Well, someone did see it happen, that's why the person is now wearing it (provided of course that they are wearing it legitimately). It had to be approved, and for that you need proof.
I wear an Army uniform, and it has Air Force decorations on it. The Army doesn't seem to think that I'm ashamed of what they've given me, even though I have things from another branch. If the Army doesn't have a problem with that, why should CAP or CAP members? A person could could get the impression that someone has some insecurities.
Too much "us and them," and not enough "we." Be proud of your own achievements, you worked for them. If you always want someone else's cookie, you're never gonna be happy.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 6-2, Item 5If a member wears the US Military Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by competent authority.)
Then it will be worn centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on left breast. CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above other aviation badges.
That's something that needs to be clarified across the board. All military badges, not just aviation ones, should be worn below CAP badges if both are worn on the uniform. The precedence is the military, the current service badges go highest (generally, there are probably a few exceptions). It should be the same in CAP.
Quote from: arajca on October 07, 2011, 03:03:13 PM
Quote from: AC on October 07, 2011, 02:23:48 PM
In CAP, military wings go above CAP wings. Now what!
Bzzt! Wrong answer.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 6-2, Item 5If a member wears the US Military Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by competent authority.)
Then it will be worn centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on left breast. CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above other aviation badges.
emphasis mine.
See, even I can be wrong! Looks like I am in compliance, like I thought I was. Unless you want to dock me for the 1/2". If I move the wings up, the are hidden by the lapel.
Quote from: AC on October 07, 2011, 05:34:52 PM
Quote from: arajca on October 07, 2011, 03:03:13 PM
Quote from: AC on October 07, 2011, 02:23:48 PM
In CAP, military wings go above CAP wings. Now what!
Bzzt! Wrong answer.
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 6-2, Item 5If a member wears the US Military Aviation Badge (Awarded in writing by competent authority.)
Then it will be worn centered 1/2 inch above the pocket or ribbons on left breast. CAP aviation badges are worn 1/2 inch above other aviation badges.
emphasis mine.
See, even I can be wrong! Looks like I am in compliance, like I thought I was. Unless you want to dock me for the 1/2". If I move the wings up, the are hidden by the lapel.
Spacing is required to be 1/2". Your ribbons/badges need to fit below the notch. If they don't, you can't wear all of them. So you're not in compliance.
Quote from: arajca on October 07, 2011, 02:16:57 PM
Here's a few questions for all those who insist on wearing awards decoration from every military service for any country on their CAP uniform instead of wearing CAP awards and decorations on their CAP uniform: Why? Are you ashamed of your CAP achievements? Do you think they are insignificant in regards to CAP?
CAP awards and military awards are apples and oranges. Not that CAP awards are "not as good" but realistically, they are considerably easier to obtain then military awards. It took me 11 weeks to earn a military ribbon vs a day to earn one in the CAP.
Capt. Maroste,
Wear what you earned and be proud of it. You have done more than most everyone on this board has done and done it for real. You are going to find this kind of garrison trooper mentality sometimes in CAP.These people will try to make CAP more "orthodox" with regard to uniform regs than anything you will find in the RM. Strangely, I have found very few ex-military that are this way. If this thread continues, someone will likely pull the Core Value: Integrity card on you as if they themselves are without original sin. Very few of them know waht real integrity and character really is. Ignore this. These people are a very small(thanfully) minority in CAP. I see nothing wrong with your rack or wearing your PARU wings on the right side. Like I said before, you earned them and wear them proudly.
I think that the argument over the military decorations from non-priors comes like this:
1) Why wear military decorations on your CAP uniform, when they have no real bearing as to what you've done in CAP. Even other military branches have restrictions on what you can bring over from another service. CAP isn't just a continuation of an existing military career.
2) Military veterans don't wear their awards and decorations on their Boy Scout Uniforms, or when they volunteer with other organizations, why CAP? I think that it's the same argument of Air Force personnel wearing their Air Force uniforms to CAP meetings as a member. "It's close enough."
3) Some Military veterans get all worked up about not being able to wear certain things (this discussion, for example) and bring that "I earned it, I'm wearing it" attitude with them. Which is kind of ironic, coming from a person who spent a career enforcing rules and regulations, but now don't think they should apply.
4) Non-priors don't get to wear their "employee of the month" award from their job. Even government civilians awarded ribbons from the government, like the "President's Award for Distinguished Public Service," can't wear it, even though it's a ribbon. Why should a military veteran get to wear a marksmanship ribbon, but the NSA employee can't wear their NSA Exceptional Civilian Service Medal? I mean, it probably took a lot more work to earn than shooting at the range a few times.
Heck, I've met some vets that flat out told me that they'd quit CAP if they weren't given the option to wear their awards and decorations.
Many people see the military veterans demanding to wear their awards and decs as a way to play the one upmanship game with people without prior military experience, as a "I know more about leading than you do because I was in the military." Or "I'm not going to wear those CAP wings, because I have military wings, and we all know that civilian pilots aren't as cool as military pilots."
*this is not a summary of my personal opinion, but rather an expulsion of views that I've recollected throughout the years from many CAP members without prior-military experience.
Thank you sir.
Terry Maroste
ETA: I met a Marine fighter pilot at the Texas Wing conference who had those beautiful Wings of Gold. He is CAP.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 07, 2011, 06:54:23 PM
I think that the argument over the military decorations from non-priors comes like this:
1) Why wear military decorations on your CAP uniform, when they have no real bearing as to what you've done in CAP. Even other military branches have restrictions on what you can bring over from another service. CAP isn't just a continuation of an existing military career.
2) Military veterans don't wear their awards and decorations on their Boy Scout Uniforms, or when they volunteer with other organizations, why CAP? I think that it's the same argument of Air Force personnel wearing their Air Force uniforms to CAP meetings as a member. "It's close enough."
3) Some Military veterans get all worked up about not being able to wear certain things (this discussion, for example) and bring that "I earned it, I'm wearing it" attitude with them. Which is kind of ironic, coming from a person who spent a career enforcing rules and regulations, but now don't think they should apply.
4) Non-priors don't get to wear their "employee of the month" award from their job. Even government civilians awarded ribbons from the government, like the "President's Award for Distinguished Public Service," can't wear it, even though it's a ribbon. Why should a military veteran get to wear a marksmanship ribbon, but the NSA employee can't wear their NSA Exceptional Civilian Service Medal? I mean, it probably took a lot more work to earn than shooting at the range a few times.
Heck, I've met some vets that flat out told me that they'd quit CAP if they weren't given the option to wear their awards and decorations.
Many people see the military veterans demanding to wear their awards and decs as a way to play the one upmanship game with people without prior military experience, as a "I know more about leading than you do because I was in the military." Or "I'm not going to wear those CAP wings, because I have military wings, and we all know that civilian pilots aren't as cool as military pilots."
*this is not a summary of my personal opinion, but rather an expulsion of views that I've recollected throughout the years from many CAP members without prior-military experience.
1. CAP wears a military uniform with it's own insignia. It's maintaining the same customs of the branch we're "lent" it from. Military awards and decs are appropriate. A person does not lose their history or experience because they join CAP, no matter how much some CAP members want it.
2. Like awards and decorations are not worn on Boy Scouts or similar organizations uniforms, so the comparison is irrelevant, regardless of how much it is argued.
3. Enforcing rules and regulations and now think they don't apply? Specify which ones. No one here has said they don't apply. I have said that I disagree with rules, but would comply because they're rules. If you don't like the rule, get it changed. And what is it going to hurt a CAP member if someone wears a badge, ribbon, or wings that they can't earn? It's not going to. There are many people that scream "it's not fair!" because they don't have what someone else does. That's one of society's failures that teaches people that they are equal to everyone else in every way, when they're not. If everyone was equal in everything, there would be no need for a team.
Second, there are awards and badges that are authorized, but CAP only members don't even want those permitted, or actually tell people they aren't (when they are). Do some of these people have such an inferiority complex that they can't handle someone else having something more?
4. Pineda authorized a number of DOD employees the wear of a civilian commendation medal years ago. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. But I do have problems with some things being permitted, and not others. That's double standard and hypocrisy, any way you look at it. Additionally, I don't think those particular decorations were ever actually authorized in writing. It was "Pineda said so." That's wrong too.
I still have military experience. That hasn't changed. Why would you deny me the priviledge of wearing something that you don't have? Because, that's what it looks like. I have had people tell me that "military stuff doesn't belong here", and then they go perform drill incorrectly, show discourtesy to those with more rank and experience than they have, generally do many things completely wrong and won't accept education to the contrary. A team where every one plays by their own individual rules isn't a team. It's a failure.
Don't think that my responses are directed specifically at you. I'm primarily addressing the statements.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 07, 2011, 05:14:21 AM
Canadian:
(http://secure.hostdeziners.com/www_supplysergeant_ca/store/images/product_images/7622.jpg)
(with both red and white Maple Leaf; not sure what the distinction is)
White is operational jump status. Red is qualified (been to school), but not in a current jump billet.
Quote from: ol'fido on October 07, 2011, 06:43:05 PM
Capt. Maroste,
Wear what you earned and be proud of it. You have done more than most everyone on this board has done and done it for real. You are going to find this kind of garrison trooper mentality sometimes in CAP.These people will try to make CAP more "orthodox" with regard to uniform regs than anything you will find in the RM. Strangely, I have found very few ex-military that are this way. If this thread continues, someone will likely pull the Core Value: Integrity card on you as if they themselves are without original sin. Very few of them know waht real integrity and character really is. Ignore this. These people are a very small(thanfully) minority in CAP. I see nothing wrong with your rack or wearing your PARU wings on the right side. Like I said before, you earned them and wear them proudly.
And some of us RETIRED MILITARY believe in following the regs.
It's nice that you earned it, but if the uniform regs say you can't wear it in that uniform then you don't wear it while in that uniform.
^^^ :clap: :clap: :clap:
Quote from: PHall on October 07, 2011, 08:05:14 PMIt's nice that you earned it, but if the uniform regs say you can't wear it in that uniform then you don't wear it while in that uniform.
The only stipulation I would have would be that it be worn on the left side, over ribbons and below any military or CAP badge (successively).
Foreign
Aviation badges are listed in 39-1. It just says that a CAP badge goes above it.
Quote from: arajca on October 07, 2011, 06:00:32 PM
Spacing is required to be 1/2". Your ribbons/badges need to fit below the notch. If they don't, you can't wear all of them. So you're not in compliance.
He can wear them four to a line.
I remember in the CGAUX, there wasn't that option. We had a Division Captain who had tremendous amounts of blingage from Vietnam along with NFO wings and since CG only allows three to a line, there were a lot of his awards, both military and Auxiliary, that he couldn't wear.
Quote from: CyBorg on October 08, 2011, 07:05:37 AM
Quote from: arajca on October 07, 2011, 06:00:32 PM
Spacing is required to be 1/2". Your ribbons/badges need to fit below the notch. If they don't, you can't wear all of them. So you're not in compliance.
He can wear them four to a line.
Yes, that would enable him to properly space everything and still be below the notch, however, as his rack is displayed currently, it is not in compliance since there is not the required 1/2" spacing between the badges and ribbons.
So why not suggest fixes like this one, as opposed to attacking and demeaning every mistake he made, or slight misconception he had?
Leadership is teaching, and often the students are far more difficult than the good Capt- who sought feedback and even told you about the spacing upfront.
What was that signature? Ah- "We are, after all, professionals."
Just happen to be here. Thank you sir.
I'll fix 'em. Probably have to move them around soon anyway. Might get another one. Good thing when I make Major, I have to buy a new hat! I like hats.
AC