Are you allowed to wear your blue beret after NBB? Let's say I was to go back to Utah and wear in with my BDU's at squadron meeting... is that allowed?
Per M39-1, only worn at the special activity it was awarded at.
Now the longer answer. Use the search button, pleeeeeeeaaaaaaaasse (where's a pleading smiley?). We have beaten this topic to death over and over for the last several years.
Not trying to jump on you, please don't think that. Just saying the search function is your friend.
Alright. Thanks a bunch. :D
Just because it's been beaten to death, doesn't mean the answer they find is going to suit them, either. There is always someone that will say "but so and so said that they heard that someone said... " (we could).
Since I have not been to the activity, I don't know what they tell you at that activity about the hat that is given as part of that activity, but I have to presume they say "you can't wear this when you leave here unless specifically authorized"
Quote from: ddriskill083 on November 18, 2010, 09:09:15 PM
Are you allowed to wear your blue beret after NBB? Let's say I was to go back to Utah and wear in with my BDU's at squadron meeting... is that allowed?
Cadet Driskill,
The answer you got from the anonymous poster is correct and succint, here is a longer explanation:
http://www.facebook.com/notes.php?id=789373380¬es_tab=app_2347471856#!/note.php?note_id=451531224107
The scary part is, some SMs are more adamant about the Beret than cadets...
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on November 19, 2010, 04:07:15 AM
The scary part is, some SMs are more adamant about the Beret than cadets...
I earned a blue beret while on active duty USAF, and still can't wear it in CAP. NBB attendees need to get over this topic. (No offense to any one individual)
Quote from: Dad2-4 on November 19, 2010, 07:56:52 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on November 19, 2010, 04:07:15 AM
The scary part is, some SMs are more adamant about the Beret than cadets...
I earned a blue beret while on active duty USAF, and still can't wear it in CAP. NBB attendees need to get over this topic. (No offense to any one individual)
Don't start that. You know as well as I do that your blue beret is a duty uniform item, that is worn, just like your shield, while you are performing your duties. That's the AF Reg. I have a challenge coin to denote my beret flash. I carry it all the time. I still wear my qualification badge proudly. The beret sits, folded, with my medals in a box. It isn't appropriate to wear it with a CAP uniform, because that would infer that you are performing those same duties in CAP.
First, It has been explained to me from Lt Col Regena Aye, the NBB Director, that you are able to wear the blue beret anytime you wish with the bdu uniform. It is not recommended to wear it on Ground team activity's. You may not wear it with blue's or service dress uniform unless you are attending a former blue beret funeral. See my cadet commander wears his all the time with his bdu's because he is a recent graduate.
Quote from: Cms.sloane on November 19, 2010, 02:13:10 PM
See my cadet commander wears his all the time with his bdu's because he is a recent graduate.
Then he is wrong.
I respect Col Aye very much, but as the regs are written right now, her explanation is wrong. The NBB beret was never authorized for full time wear, and CAPM 39-1 still says that berets awarded at a special activity can only be worn at that activity.
Additionally, wearing a beret on a ground team is just plain dumb. There's a reason they don't wear berets on the flight line at NBB.
Quote from: jeders on November 19, 2010, 02:33:00 PM
Quote from: Cms.sloane on November 19, 2010, 02:13:10 PM
See my cadet commander wears his all the time with his bdu's because he is a recent graduate.
Then he is wrong.
I respect Col Aye very much, but as the regs are written right now, her explanation is wrong. The NBB beret was never authorized for full time wear, and CAPM 39-1 still says that berets awarded at a special activity can only be worn at that activity.
Additionally, wearing a beret on a ground team is just plain dumb. There's a reason they don't wear berets on the flight line at NBB.
Well......that is up for interpetation.
The NB did authorise the NBB beret for wear with the BDU's and BBDU's.
Quote from: lordmonar on November 19, 2010, 02:36:34 PM
Quote from: jeders on November 19, 2010, 02:33:00 PM
Quote from: Cms.sloane on November 19, 2010, 02:13:10 PM
See my cadet commander wears his all the time with his bdu's because he is a recent graduate.
Then he is wrong.
I respect Col Aye very much, but as the regs are written right now, her explanation is wrong. The NBB beret was never authorized for full time wear, and CAPM 39-1 still says that berets awarded at a special activity can only be worn at that activity.
Additionally, wearing a beret on a ground team is just plain dumb. There's a reason they don't wear berets on the flight line at NBB.
Well......that is up for interpetation.
The NB did authorise the NBB beret for wear with the BDU's and BBDU's.
Hence the reason that, in my first post, I said that this has been beaten to death here many times over.
As far as interpreting, we can all at least agree that it needs clarification.
Quote from: Cms.sloane on November 19, 2010, 02:13:10 PM
You may not wear it with blue's or service dress uniform unless you are attending a former blue beret funeral.
No regulation or National Board decision supports this. Berets were authorized for wear with BDUs and BBDUs by the NB, but that has not been placed into actual regulation by ICL or an update to 39-1.
I also do not believe that the Air Force has approved blue berets for wear with BDUs outside of NBB.
Why can't NHQ write a simple paragraph that ends this debate?
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2010, 04:32:35 PM
Why can't NHQ write a simple paragraph that ends this debate?
They took the easy way out and said certain items are pending AF approval...in 08...
^ And until then, the real answer is "do whatever the either nearest person or the highest person in your command orbit is comfortable with, and put it away if anyone in authority over you raises an objection".
Hint: "This is the only hat I brought..." is the wrong answer.
Would somebody explain to me what NBB is?
Quote from: Sgt.Pain on November 19, 2010, 06:02:57 PM
Would somebody explain to me what NBB is?
National Blue Beret - the CAP NCSA that takes place around and during EAA Airventure in Oshkosh, WI.
The simple solution would be to authorize all in CAP to wear the beret
1. We all look the same.
2. Vanguard makes some money SO that they can give PERCENTAGE back to CAP.
3. Everbody will be wearing it so it wont be considered that cool any more.
Problem solved............
Quote from: eaker.cadet on November 19, 2010, 06:35:43 PM
The simple solution would be to authorize all in CAP to wear the beret
That doesn't solve anything - in fact it makes it worse.
There are people in CAP who actually like a uniform look, and a fair number disdain the beret for any number of reasons.
The pre-HWSRN policy of only allowing the wear during and at NBB worked for for a long time and we need to go back to that.
Or just get rid of it altogether - it serves no purpose in CAP other than making us look ridiculous and causing a lot of confusion and arguments.
Quote from: eaker.cadet on November 19, 2010, 06:35:43 PM
3. Everbody will be wearing it so it wont be considered that cool any more.
Believe me, everyone would not be wearing it - the only thing worse than wearing an NBB beret outside of NBB, would be
members who haven't even been there wearing one.
Yes, I know a few wings have asserted they have the authority to authorize the beret for other uses...see above.
Quote from: eaker.cadet on November 19, 2010, 06:35:43 PM
The simple solution would be to authorize all in CAP to wear the beret
1. We all look the same.
2. Vanguard makes some money SO that they can give PERCENTAGE back to CAP.
3. Everbody will be wearing it so it wont be considered that cool any more.
Problem solved............
The simple solution would be not to allow anyone to wear it.
There the problem is solved.
1. We would all look the same using the
standard headgear that is already out there. Out of everyone in CAP, it's a lot smaller group wearing the beret. There is no reason to require everyone else to go buy one to pander to the few who got it from NBB.
2. Authorizing a uniform item to make money is the wrong reason. It's not even all that practical. It's certainly not ethical.
3. No one would look cool, for the simple fact that no two people would wear it the same. Look at the procedures:
Beret
- Remove from package.
- Remove lining, if there is one.
- Shave beret.
- Wet, put on, shape.
- Wear until dry.
- Fold properly for stowage. (Important! If not properly folded, will look improper when worn.)
- Done.
Hat (Patrol Cap, BDU, whatever you wish to call it)
- Remove from packaging.
- Place on head.
- Done.
Big difference. When it comes to uniforms, simpler is far better.
I find it amusing how many people think it's so cool, until they
have to wear one. It becomes apparent after a short while that it's just not all it's cracked up to be. And they're certainly not practical for use with utility uniforms (By which I mean: BDUs, Flightsuits, coveralls, any other clothing you
work in.) It's designed to look pretty, not to be practical.
After all that shaping and fitting, you certainly don't want to throw it in the washing machine to clean it, unless you want to do the whole process over and over again. Then, because you haven't washed it, you end up smelling like you have a barnyard on your head.
Nothing exudes professionalism quite like smelling of sheep.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 19, 2010, 07:38:24 PM
Nothing exudes professionalism quite like smelling of sheep.
Well, unless you are a Sheppard...
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 19, 2010, 07:38:24 PM
After all that shaping and fitting, you certainly don't want to throw it in the washing machine to clean it, unless you want to do the whole process over and over again. Then, because you haven't washed it, you end up smelling like you have a barnyard on your head.
Nothing exudes professionalism quite like smelling of sheep.
Nice.
I'd be happy if mine smelled like a sheep. It doesn't smell that good.
Besides, the things look like you had a giant muffin land on your head, too. Perhaps a giant meadow muffin.. ;)
Mind your insults. They may come back to haunt you.
-Paramedic
This argument is the same all the time...
Someone asks if its ok to wear it. Half the people on here say yes, the other half no.
Then someone says "yes it is, the NB voted to allow it". Then someone else says " no no no, we are waiting for AF approval".
Then someone says my "insert command lever here" commander says we can wear it. Then someone else says "well your (insert command level here) commander is wrong".
Then we all decide that NHQ needs to clarify this so we can all move on with our lives.
So we are at the classic military stance....."stand by to stand by"......
Is that about right or...am i crazy?
Agreed.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 10:01:44 PM
Then we all decide that NHQ needs to clarify this so we can all move on with our lives.
No need for clarity on this one.
Since this is something that CAP can't change on our own without AF approval and the only way we have to tell if AF approval has been granted is to wait until such time as an approved ICL or revised reg comes out. We can't just act on the assumption that the AF will approve of CAP's proposal (which despite a NB vote is all it actually is at this point) as they've rejected plenty before.
Therefore, unquestionably the current reg is fully binding.
If this was an issue where CAP had full control one can argue that minutes from the meeting of the governing body that approved the change is all we need even without an ICL/reg revision. That isn't the case here.
It is rather weird. JROTC cadets have a multitude of berets that they wear in different colors. They've already set the precedent for cadets wearing AF style uniforms to wear berets. I'm not sure what the issue is.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 19, 2010, 10:35:15 PM
It is rather weird. JROTC cadets have a multitude of berets that they wear in different colors. They've already set the precedent for cadets wearing AF style uniforms to wear berets. I'm not sure what the issue is.
We're not ROTC.
Quote from: HGjunkie on November 19, 2010, 10:50:02 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 19, 2010, 10:35:15 PM
It is rather weird. JROTC cadets have a multitude of berets that they wear in different colors. They've already set the precedent for cadets wearing AF style uniforms to wear berets. I'm not sure what the issue is.
We're not ROTC.
they aren't ROTC either...they are junior ROTC
We're not JROTC either.
So, i have got to ask...
Why do you all hate NBB so much, and have you all been or are you just nerd raging?
I want to go to NBB. I don't hate on something until i've experienced it.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
So, i have got to ask...
Why do you all hate NBB so much, and have you all been or are you just nerd raging?
I don't hate NBB, I love it. I think it is one of the best NCSAs that CAP has to offer. That being said, the current reg doesn't allow for the beret to be worn outside of NBB. What I, and I think most of us, have a problem with is not the beret itself. It's people ignoring the regs so they can wear it and then whining when they're told not to. It's the sense of entitlement that, in my belief, a small minority of NBB grads show when they leave Oshkosh.
If they update 39-1 to allow for the wearing of the NBB beret at all times outside of the activity, or abolish the beret all together, you'll never hear a bit of heartburn from me again, at least not over wearing the beret. No matter what, there will always be the minority of NBB grads with a sense of entitlement.
I dont think anyone "hates" NBB. Many just dont think you need to come away with a beret for working an airshow.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
So, i have got to ask...
Why do you all hate NBB so much, and have you all been or are you just nerd raging?
I don't think anyone hates NBB. I actually think it is a really cool program that is run and certainly unique in terms of activities offered by youth organizations.
The contention is the need/desire of the activities in general to create new uniform items that really serve no purpose.
Go to PJOC, get a patch.
Go to COS, get a patch.
Go to E-Tech, get a patch.
Go to "X", get a patch.
Go to Hawk Mountain, get an ascot, pistol belt, orange t-shirt, orange hat, white boot laces, whistle, and a patch.
Go to NBB, get a beret and a patch.
I mean, they named the activity after the hat, not even what is done there.
Quote from: jeders on November 19, 2010, 11:02:56 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
So, i have got to ask...
Why do you all hate NBB so much, and have you all been or are you just nerd raging?
I don't hate NBB, I love it. I think it is one of the best NCSAs that CAP has to offer. That being said, the current reg doesn't allow for the beret to be worn outside of NBB. What I, and I think most of us, have a problem with is not the beret itself. It's people ignoring the regs so they can wear it and then whining when they're told not to. It's the sense of entitlement that, in my belief, a small minority of NBB grads show when they leave Oshkosh.
If they update 39-1 to allow for the wearing of the NBB beret at all times outside of the activity, or abolish the beret all together, you'll never hear a bit of heartburn from me again, at least not over wearing the beret. No matter what, there will always be the minority of NBB grads with a sense of entitlement.
So when a wing commander, member of the NB, and director of NBB says we can wear it, when she has asked the region and national commander if we can wear it and they BOTH say we can, we have a sense of "entitlement"? I understand some members do, but do not group ALL that wear the beret into that category.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 19, 2010, 11:05:32 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
So, i have got to ask...
Why do you all hate NBB so much, and have you all been or are you just nerd raging?
The contention is the need/desire of the activities in general to create new uniform items that really serve no purpose.
No purpose? Not one?
I see the beret as a recruiting tool, and for cadets, it is a pretty good incentive to get them to go. Cadet's like bling, and if a silly hat is all it takes to draw a cadet into a national activity, then I'm all for it.
Let's face it, NBB is different from other activities because CAP, oshkosh, and EAA
NEEDs cadets to attend.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
So, i have got to ask...
Why do you all hate NBB so much, and have you all been or are you just nerd raging?
I don't think most people have anything against the activity, it's the hat people have a problem with. Most NCSA grads get a ribbon, patch and maybe a coin. NBB requires that you attend a great airshow and work hard nothing more. The NBB of today bears little resemblance to the orig. program that started the whole beret thing.
Quote from: PA Guy on November 19, 2010, 11:15:43 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
So, i have got to ask...
Why do you all hate NBB so much, and have you all been or are you just nerd raging?
I don't think most people have anything against the activity, it's the hat people have a problem with. Most NCSA grads get a ribbon, patch and maybe a coin. NBB requires that you attend a great airshow and work hard nothing more. The NBB of today bears little resemblance to the orig. program that started the whole beret thing.
Agreed.
We had a cadet that came back from NBB this past year, wearing a beret, senior ground team badge, air search and rescue ribbon and a find ribbon with two devices. Then he copped an attitude with Group Staff who wanted verification for all the bling....and he still wears the beret to EVERYTHING...including when he's in his blues.
Someone out there want to verify all that? Since it's a national activity, why doesn't national upgrade the individual's ES qualifications and send the appropriate paperwork verifying the awards?
Quote from: flyboy1 on November 19, 2010, 11:29:59 PM
Quote from: PA Guy on November 19, 2010, 11:15:43 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
So, i have got to ask...
Why do you all hate NBB so much, and have you all been or are you just nerd raging?
I don't think most people have anything against the activity, it's the hat people have a problem with. Most NCSA grads get a ribbon, patch and maybe a coin. NBB requires that you attend a great airshow and work hard nothing more. The NBB of today bears little resemblance to the orig. program that started the whole beret thing.
Agreed.
We had a cadet that came back from NBB this past year, wearing a beret, senior ground team badge, air search and rescue ribbon and a find ribbon with two devices. Then he copped an attitude with Group Staff who wanted verification for all the bling....and he still wears the beret to EVERYTHING...including his blues.
Someone out there want to verify all that? Since it was a national activity, why doesn't national upgrade the individual's ES qualifications and send the appropriate paperwork verifying the awards?
I will defend NBB with a passion, but this cadet is wrong. He did not get gtl at NBB, he may have gotten the sar ribbon and there is no way he got the find ribbon with two devices. He got the basic find ribbon.
The reason national doesn't verify all the awards is that it is different for each flight. Some flight might get one find, another might get 10...it depends greatly.
Everyone knows the beret CAN NOT be worn with blues....so if he is in your squadron or you see him....correct him.
Why doesn't the NBB admin staff send cadets home with something that verifies what they earned while there?
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
So, i have got to ask...
Why do you all hate NBB so much, and have you all been or are you just nerd raging?
Many of us have had the very unpleasent experience of dealing the attitude problems that come back from NBB with the cow pie. Once upon a time, folks who completed NBB could wear the beret with all uniforms. Because of the attitudes that starting coming home with it, that authorization was revoked and, for a short time, the beret was banned. It has since been allowed back into wear with the bdu and bbdu by the NB, but the AF hasn't given its blessing on wearing it with the bdu. Of course, this hasn't stopped the NBB folks from wearing it any more than the AF saying no to boonies with the bdu has stopped ground teams from wearing that hat.
Quote from: PA Guy on November 19, 2010, 11:45:33 PM
Why doesn't the NBB admin staff send cadets home with something that verifies what they earned while there?
They do, ask for the graduation packet the cadets received. Every cadet and SM TAC get one, don't let them lie. On them, it lists the number of sortis and finds and also the training that was completed.
Unless there has been a major change at NBB NCRBlues is correct. Each participant gets a certificate of completion, a certificate listing the number of sorties, and number of finds. The ES training that was completed should be documented in paper or on your computer system.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2010, 06:45:26 PM
The pre-HWSRN policy of only allowing the wear during and at NBB worked for for a long time and we need to go back to that.
:clap: Amen!
Quote from: flyboy1 on November 19, 2010, 11:29:59 PM
We had a cadet that came back from NBB this past year, wearing a beret, senior ground team badge, air search and rescue ribbon and a find ribbon with two devices. Then he copped an attitude with Group Staff who wanted verification for all the bling....and he still wears the beret to EVERYTHING...including when he's in his blues.
Please PM and tell me who this is? And also ask them what flight they were in please.
Also, NCRBlues is very correct. Each cadet gets a sheet in their graduation packet that tells you what ES skills they were signed off on, number of sorties they completed, and number of finds their flight received. The ES skills were added into nationals system at the activity.
And for reference, I think that the most finds that any flight got during this last year was 6. And I don't believe that any flight had enough sorties to get the SAR Ribbon. So, when you have cadets in your units return from beret, ask them to present their graduation packet so that you can update their records. This will allow your ES Officer to verify these numbers.
If anybody has questions about things like this, ask those of us who have been. We all know cadets can over exaggerated a bit from time to time. (And no, I don't mean all of them. But there are those that do.) The Senior Staff would be happy to verify anything that you would like to know.
-Paramedic
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2010, 07:41:05 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 19, 2010, 07:38:24 PM
Nothing exudes professionalism quite like smelling of sheep.
Well, unless you are a Sheppard...
Would that be Sam Sheppard, or Scott S. Sheppard, or T. G. Sheppard, or Lito Sheppard, or Charles Bradford Sheppard, or another completely different Sheppard?
Or did you mean a shepherd? >:D
Quote from: SarDragon on November 20, 2010, 08:56:31 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2010, 07:41:05 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on November 19, 2010, 07:38:24 PM
Nothing exudes professionalism quite like smelling of sheep.
Well, unless you are a Sheppard...
Would that be Sam Sheppard, or Scott S. Sheppard, or T. G. Sheppard, or Lito Sheppard, or Charles Bradford Sheppard, or another completely different Sheppard?
Or did you mean a shepherd? >:D
SARDRAGON!!!!!!!!!
(http://geeknightout.net/in/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/kirk-khan-shout.jpg)
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2010, 11:35:29 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on November 19, 2010, 11:29:59 PM
We had a cadet that came back from NBB this past year, wearing .... a find ribbon with two devices.
and there is no way he got the find ribbon with two devices. He got the basic find ribbon.
To amplify this, you get a find ribbon for your first find. You get a device for each additional *20* non-distress finds. I highly doubt that this cadet had either 3 distress finds or 41 non-distress finds at NBB.
He does know that training beacons don't count, right?
Quote from: JoeTomasone on November 20, 2010, 05:00:59 PM
He does know that training beacons don't count, right?
What are you implying?
Quote from: MICT1362 on November 20, 2010, 05:07:15 PM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on November 20, 2010, 05:00:59 PM
He does know that training beacons don't count, right?
What are you implying?
That perhaps he thought that finding a training beacon during training or exercises counted.
Ok, just checking. Trying to minimize the attacks that the activity gets. I am working with flyboy1 on resolving this issue. I believe that there are some misunderstanding on the cadets part about what his awards really are.
-Paramedic
Quote from: MICT1362 on November 20, 2010, 05:12:19 PM
Ok, just checking. Trying to minimize the attacks that the activity gets. I am working with flyboy1 on resolving this issue. I believe that there are some misunderstanding on the cadets part about what his awards really are.
-Paramedic
Agreed. Let's let it be handled internally.
My faith is restored in the award. I didn't realize that NBB alumni and staff police themselves and put as much regard into the beret that I do as a former Security Forces member.
Lets also not forget that qualifying for a ribbon/device does NOT mean it's approved for wear. Only a unit commander can authorize that via a CAPF 2A.
Quote from: MICT1362 on November 20, 2010, 05:12:19 PM
Ok, just checking. Trying to minimize the attacks that the activity gets. I am working with flyboy1 on resolving this issue. I believe that there are some misunderstanding on the cadets part about what his awards really are.
-Paramedic
Nobody's attacking the
activity, just some of the actions of a few of the "
graduates".
Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on November 21, 2010, 03:20:00 AM
Lets also not forget that qualifying for a ribbon/device does NOT mean it's approved for wear. Only a unit commander can authorize that via a CAPF 2A.
Meh - many are "self-actualizing" - I'm not going to expect a 2a for an encampment ribbon that is logged in eservices, or a red service, but I agree something like this needs to be approved, since someone should be checking the mission #'s, etc.
Quote from: PHall on November 21, 2010, 03:20:55 AM
Quote from: MICT1362 on November 20, 2010, 05:12:19 PM
Ok, just checking. Trying to minimize the attacks that the activity gets. I am working with flyboy1 on resolving this issue. I believe that there are some misunderstanding on the cadets part about what his awards really are.
-Paramedic
Nobody's attacking the activity, just some of the actions of a few of the "graduates".
From time to time, some posts tend to imply that everyone that goes to this activity acts in the manner that you describe. Those are the posts that I consider attacks. I was clarifying a statement so that I did not react incorrectly to the post.
I do not believe that every one is attacking the activity, but some of them do appear that way from time to time.
No harm done in this case.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2010, 03:43:55 AM
Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on November 21, 2010, 03:20:00 AM
Lets also not forget that qualifying for a ribbon/device does NOT mean it's approved for wear. Only a unit commander can authorize that via a CAPF 2A.
Meh - many are "self-actualizing" - I'm not going to expect a 2a for an encampment ribbon that is logged in eservices, or a red service, but I agree something like this needs to be approved, since someone should be checking the mission #'s, etc.
Like I said before, if you have a cadet who attended the activity, simply ask them for their activity packet. This allows the ES officer to log their sorties and finds in their ES folder. Pretty simple. Cadets that don't get much ES time don't always know that these need to be logged. So, as Seniors, we need to help them out.
-Paramedic
Quote from: MICT1362 on November 21, 2010, 04:14:51 AM
From time to time, some posts tend to imply that everyone that goes to this activity acts in the manner that you describe. Those are the posts that I consider attacks. I was clarifying a statement so that I did not react incorrectly to the post.
I do not believe that every one is attacking the activity, but some of them do appear that way from time to time.
No harm done in this case.
I tend to think that the reason for this, is that most of us don't remember the cadet who came home from NBB, sewed the patch on his BDUs, and put his folded beret on a shelf. The ones who talk to their fellow cadets about how cool it was to spend two weeks at the Valhalla of the aviation world, the planes they saw, the people they met, and all of the different facets of the activity.
While I know there are NBB grads out there who have done just that, I think we all tend to remember the ones who come home wearing their beret with their blues because someone told them they could. The ones who scream bloody murder when their squadron commander (or an activity commander) tells them that they can't wear it for reasons of uniformity, and threatens to complain to everyone and their brother, files IG complaints because you're harassing them, etc. These are also the ones who say "I earned a beret" right away, when others ask them about the activity.
The same could be said for Hawk graduates as well.
Those are the graduates we all remember and talk about. I'd take a hundred of the former over one of the latter, and I might even loosen my position and let them wear their berets. Unfortunately, the reality is just the opposite, and we end up with 100 of the latter, and maybe one of the former.
Agreed that there are probably more cadets that don't listen than do. But, I will tell you that they are that way when they show up. I cannot count the number of times that we get a cadet from Billy Bob's Squadron who shows up, tries to tell the staff what to do, and tries to be an entire flight all by himself. The C/Maj who can't take orders from a C/2d Lt who is returning for his second year simply because the C/Maj feels that he "deserves" to be in charge. While doing staff interviews we sometimes wonder how cadets got approved to even attend the activity...
As TAC Officers, we do everything in our power to send them back better than we get them, but to be completely honest, some of them are helpless. We could spend months with them and get nowhere.
Does earning a beret amplify this sense of entitlement? Maybe. But, in most cases, so does a Ground Team Badge, a Life Saving Award, or a Meritorious Service Award. There are those cadets that are humbled by fact that these are all awards that someone else feels they have earned and deserved. But I know that there are plenty of cadets that just think they are a BA simply because they are who they are.
Cadets are going to be whomever they chose to be. All we can do as Beret Staff, Squadron Staff, and Leaders is do our best to mold them into the cadets that we want them to be. Some will take more work than others, some will work you to death.
-Paramedic
Quote from: Slim on November 21, 2010, 09:47:31 AMWhile I know there are NBB grads out there who have done just that, I think we all tend to remember the ones who come home wearing their beret with their blues because someone told them they could. The ones who scream bloody murder when their squadron commander (or an activity commander) tells them that they can't wear it for reasons of uniformity, and threatens to complain to everyone and their brother, files IG complaints because you're harassing them, etc. These are also the ones who say "I earned a beret" right away, when others ask them about the activity.
This is specifically the problem.
Quote from: MICT1362 on November 21, 2010, 12:54:12 PM
Agreed that there are probably more cadets that don't listen than do. But, I will tell you that they are that way when they show up. I cannot count the number of times that we get a cadet from Billy Bob's Squadron who shows up, tries to tell the staff what to do, and tries to be an entire flight all by himself. The C/Maj who can't take orders from a C/2d Lt who is returning for his second year simply because the C/Maj feels that he "deserves" to be in charge. While doing staff interviews we sometimes wonder how cadets got approved to even attend the activity...
This is the root of the problem - cadets with an incorrect understanding of their place in the universe, and squadron leadership who either refuse to adjust that understanding, or worse, feed the attitude by rewarding bad behavior because that same behavior brings what they consider to be positive light on their unit (i.e. the end justifies the means).
Quote from: MICT1362 on November 21, 2010, 12:54:12 PM
Does earning a beret amplify this sense of entitlement? Maybe. But, in most cases, so does a Ground Team Badge, a Life Saving Award, or a Meritorious Service Award. There are those cadets that are humbled by fact that these are all awards that someone else feels they have earned and deserved. But I know that there are plenty of cadets that just think they are a BA simply because they are who they are.
I would tend to agree, except that the other awards and badges do not have a controversial history, nor is there any dispute about
how and when they are worn.
Let me ask this? Why do NBB people think the beret should be worn outside the activity? What is so special about this NCSA that it deserves / requires such special attention? Were it me at the head of the line, I would tell NHQ we don't want this sort of attention.
How hard would it be to have an outbrief where you tell the participants when and where they can where the beret(or whatever bling is associated with a particular activity?). Also, how hard would it be to send this info to the participants CC with documentation of their finds, sorties, etc. Don't send it home with the cadet but mail or e mail direct to the unit CC.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2010, 03:43:55 AM
Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on November 21, 2010, 03:20:00 AM
Lets also not forget that qualifying for a ribbon/device does NOT mean it's approved for wear. Only a unit commander can authorize that via a CAPF 2A.
Meh - many are "self-actualizing" - I'm not going to expect a 2a for an encampment ribbon that is logged in eservices, or a red service, but I agree something like this needs to be approved, since someone should be checking the mission #'s, etc.
How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a? Especially for folks like me with broken service?
Quote from: SarDragon on November 21, 2010, 08:07:39 PMHow else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a? Especially for folks like me with broken service?
Point taken if you have an unusual service record, but for most of us, two years is simple math, etc.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 21, 2010, 08:07:39 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2010, 03:43:55 AM
Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on November 21, 2010, 03:20:00 AM
Lets also not forget that qualifying for a ribbon/device does NOT mean it's approved for wear. Only a unit commander can authorize that via a CAPF 2A.
Meh - many are "self-actualizing" - I'm not going to expect a 2a for an encampment ribbon that is logged in eservices, or a red service, but I agree something like this needs to be approved, since someone should be checking the mission #'s, etc.
How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a? Especially for folks like me with broken service?
You can do it with a Personnel Authorization too.
Quote from: ol'fido on November 21, 2010, 04:34:23 PM
How hard would it be to have an outbrief where you tell the participants when and where they can where the beret(or whatever bling is associated with a particular activity?). Also, how hard would it be to send this info to the participants CC with documentation of their finds, sorties, etc. Don't send it home with the cadet but mail or e mail direct to the unit CC.
It would be very hard to send the info out in the ways you described.
First by normal mail would take an amazing amount of time. We have a hard enough time with wings and units sending us cadets that do not have the pre reqs done, medication, authorization papers signed. Heck, some of them don't even remember to bring the ID cards and or socks, let alone a mailing list with their unit CC on it.
The command staff arrives DAYS before the basic cadets arrive to just meet with the EAA and other representatives to try and figure out the controlled disorder that occurs every Airventure. All staff members are overwhelmed with the amount of things that need to be accomplished, and each year the list grows longer. I don't think most of the staff got to sleep before midnight this past year.
second by email. Well, this one is a little better but again, we run into the problem of cadets not bringing the right email for the staff. There just is not enough time for the admin staff to look up each cadet and find the unit CC. It is a NCSA and a massive one at that. What happens if the email fails to reach the unit CC?
The easiest way would be to send your cadets, but sit them down a day or so before they leave and tell them what you expect of them. Not only up at NBB but also when they return. Inform the cadets that you know they get paperwork at the end of the activity, and that you want to see it ASAP when they return.
We (staff at nbb) only control the cadets for 2 weeks, you control them ALL the time, so make it clear to them what you want out of them.....
Well, then- submit a cover all note for inclusion on eServices and then commencing with next years event, as part of the application process that goes out, add to it a note for the commander that signs the forms that this is what will be sent back with the cadet. That way no one can bury and and buy a bunch of clasps and say "I get to wear these now". Likewise I'm sure it wouldn't be *that* hard to get a collection of the Wing wear policies for NCSA patches, covers, etc. Starting with the Beret, I do pretty much get the impression that "No. you can not wear it." As I have yet to hear of one actual document that says "it can be worn.. "
It just amazes me what the computer age is capable of. We have databases of dang near everything, but we can't put together a list of cadets attending one activity and figure out which squadrons they are from? Well, if we can't do that could we maybe find e mail adresses for the DCP in each wing and ask them to send it out to their SQCC lists? I realize that activity staffs are sometimes harried and overloaded having helped plan and run encampments before. But it seems like this would be "See Spot Run" information that should be on hand. Do 50-100(I don't have the attendence numbers) random cadets just show up the first day of the activity or are they inprocessed and critical or missing info identified and gotten from the cadet? Just want to know.
147ish cadets come in over three days, every cadet is thoroughly in processed. This is like a 12 stage process. Every attempt is made to get any missing info from cadets, but you would be amazed at how many SQ CC's or parents wont answer their phones... Odd.
TAC Officers are having to make runs to Wal-Mart for cadets virtually every night because they forgot toothpaste, pillows, socks, shampoo, soap, ponchos, rope, sunscreen, underwear, sunglasses, watches, combs, brushes, shower shoes, deodorant, and any other myriad of items you can think of.
And the funny thing is, that these are supposed to be some of the top picks from our wings across the country, and they forget their underwear.... Really?
Again, as I said before, cadets are who they are and all we can do is work hard to try and change it.
-Paramedic
Quote from: MICT1362 on November 22, 2010, 12:26:10 AMAnd the funny thing is, that these are supposed to be some of the top picks from our wings across the country, and they forget their underwear.... Really?
Top picks? By what metric - they apply, they go.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2010, 12:30:26 AM
Quote from: MICT1362 on November 22, 2010, 12:26:10 AMAnd the funny thing is, that these are supposed to be some of the top picks from our wings across the country, and they forget their underwear.... Really?
Top picks? By what metric - they apply, they go.
Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?
Quote from: NCRblues on November 22, 2010, 12:47:17 AM
Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?
Aren't those going to be required nation-wide sometime in the next few years? I know FLWG does them.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 22, 2010, 12:47:17 AM
Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?
It's not like there is a huge waiting list...
Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2010, 01:16:22 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 22, 2010, 12:47:17 AM
Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?
It's not like there is a huge waiting list...
The economy has been tough on many cadets' parents. All of these activities do cost money to the parents and unless the squadron or some other grant can provide the monetary support, it just isn't in the relm for many cadets :(
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on November 22, 2010, 01:52:11 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2010, 01:16:22 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 22, 2010, 12:47:17 AM
Does your wing not use NCSA review bords, or any selection criteria?
It's not like there is a huge waiting list...
The economy has been tough on many cadets' parents. All of these activities do cost money to the parents and unless the squadron or some other grant can provide the monetary support, it just isn't in the relm for many cadets
The interest in NBB has been about the same in my wing for ten years, irrespective to the economy.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 21, 2010, 09:24:49 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 21, 2010, 08:07:39 PMHow else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a? Especially for folks like me with broken service?
Point taken if you have an unusual service record, but for most of us, two years is simple math, etc.
You didn't answer the question.
How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a?
There's even a box for that award on the form. eService has no entry mechanism. How does someone verify that Cadet Bagodunuts is authorized to wear the award?
To the best of my knowledge,
all awards must have authorizing paperwork.
[added]
From CAPR 39-3:
Quote19. Administration Procedures for Award of Activity and Service Ribbons. The individual member is responsible for preparing and submitting to the unit commander CAP Form 2a, Request for and Approval of Personnel Actions, when the requirements for an activity or service ribbon have been completed. The CAP Form 2a is then forwarded by the unit commander to the appropriate approving authority. (If the unit commander has been delegated approving authority by the wing commander as outlined in paragraph 7b, the unit commander simply approves the form and returns it to the recipient.) Upon approval, activity and service ribbons are purchased by the awarding unit or by the individual recipient, as appropriate.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 22, 2010, 02:10:14 AM
You didn't answer the question.
How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a?
There's even a box for that award on the form. eService has no entry mechanism. How does someone verify that Cadet Bagodunuts is authorized to wear the award?
To the best of my knowledge, all awards must have authorizing paperwork.
I did answer the question - eservices doesn't even track decorations like that.
You join in Jan 2000, you can wear the Red Service in Jan 2002, attachments as necessary.
If for some reason the math isn't simple and you want more than eServices shows, then yes, by all means get a 2a.
Encampment credit shows up in eservices? What do you need a 2a for? Get the Wilson award in the mail? Change your
rack, but don't expect a 2a for the ribbon. Ditto for the leadership award, add stars when you get your specialty rating.
Real decorations will have a 120 and a certificate. You need a 2a on top of that?
Anything not obvious or self-actualizing, fine - SAR ribbons, finds, CSR's, etc., CC's have enough to do without unnecessary paperwork.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2010, 02:19:51 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on November 22, 2010, 02:10:14 AM
You didn't answer the question.
How else is a Red Service Ribbon going to get into the system, if not by 2a?
There's even a box for that award on the form. eService has no entry mechanism. How does someone verify that Cadet Bagodunuts is authorized to wear the award?
To the best of my knowledge, all awards must have authorizing paperwork.
I did answer the question - eservices doesn't even track decorations like that.
You join in Jan 2000, you can wear the Red Service in Jan 2002, attachments as necessary.
If for some reason the math isn't simple and you want more than eServices shows, then yes, by all means get a 2a.
Encampment credit shows up in eservices? What do you need a 2a for? Get the Wilson award in the mail? Change your
rack, but don't expect a 2a for the ribbon. Ditto for the leadership award, add stars when you get your specialty rating.
Real decorations will have a 120 and a certificate. You need a 2a on top of that?
Anything not obvious or self-actualizing, fine - SAR ribbons, finds, CSR's, etc., CC's have enough to do without unnecessary paperwork.
So how does the "awarding authority" approve or disapprove the Red Service Ribbon if you don't submit a Form 2a?
Because according to the 39-3, the Red Service Ribbon is awarded by the Wing Commander.
(This can be delegated to Group Commanders in Wings that have Groups.)
The awarding authority is your bank when NHQ cashes the check for the third year.
Seriously, do you think an RSR needs wing CC approval? Would there be a situation where it would be denied?
For the most part everything needs somebody's signature, but there are some things worth worrying about and some
that aren't Ribbons for respiration and gravitational attraction in proper proportion aren't high on my list.
So it's OK for you to rag on people for selective enforcement of ES related regs, but forgoing a required form submission for an award passes muster. Is a hypocrite card issued as part of a group commander's kit?
Amazing.
Quote from: SarDragon on November 22, 2010, 03:15:24 AM
So it's OK for you to rag on people for selective enforcement of ES related regs, but forgoing a required form submission for an award passes muster. Is a hypocrite card issued as part of a group commander's kit?
No, it is called the practical reality of running a program with the administrative requirements of a full time profession with a 1/4 staff and limited resources.
It is also the putting the attention of those limited resources where it belongs - ES can mean life and property, whether that is who we are helping, or our own people, an RSR does not.
I still stand by the statement that these awards are self-actualizing, so it isn't hypocritical at all.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2010, 03:25:45 AM
No, it is called the practical reality of running a program with the administrative requirements of a full time profession with a 1/4 staff and limited resources.
It is also the putting the attention of those limited resources where it belongs - ES can mean life and property, whether that is who we are helping, or our own people....
Certainly a noble goal.
The current thread pertaining to the wear of the beret has entered its fifth page. Searching the archives, I found numerous other threads about the blue beret. One thread, a nine-pager, ranks among the highest in invective that I have seen as I've perused this forum. I'm sure many of us are also following the shoulder-cord thread that is paralleling this one. As a newbie here, I've noticed that it seems to be that any new topic started here will meet disagreement from no less than 52 percent of the CapTalk membership. Half will automatically disagree, plus a number of individuals who have an opinion on every topic, plus one or two more who will disagree (often tongue-in-cheek) just to spin things up. With much trepidation, I guess I'm prepared for that with this post.
As a non-CAP member who will decide whether to call out CAP resources to assist on a search in my jurisdiction, my question is this: Can you tell me if the leaders here are spending as much time, effort, energy, and reflection in ensuring that your groups, wings, squadrons, and members know how to search?
Quote from: Senty7 on November 22, 2010, 04:30:13 AMCan you tell me if the leaders here are spending as much time, effort, energy, and reflection in ensuring that your groups, wings, squadrons, and members know how to search?
Yes. Many of those you see here are very active leaders in their respective area/specialty and run very successful programs. Eclipse's group is one of the best ES resources in my wing, and I would do back flips to be able to make the 5 hour drive to every training his squadrons hold.
That said, what you see here is only a small sliver of what CAP actually is. Some of our best people won't go near these forums for various reasons. The rest of us put our CAP jobs before our CAP politics. I frequently watch these forums but 99% of my CAP time is still put into making sure I run an effective ES program.
Quote from: Senty7 on November 22, 2010, 04:30:13 AMAs a non-CAP member who will decide whether to call out CAP resources to assist on a search in my jurisdiction, my question is this: Can you tell me if the leaders here are spending as much time, effort, energy, and reflection in ensuring that your groups, wings, squadrons, and members know how to search?
The simple answer is yes.
CAPTalk is not CAP, it is a discussion forum, and the point of a discussion forum is to discuss things. By a long shot most members aren't even aware of the issues involved in these discussions, let alone participating.
The fact that many of us are as invested in these discussions as we are is because we >are< actively involved in training and participating, and would like to see some of these baseline issue defined with two sentences and never discussed again, something
we can't seem to squeeze out of NHQ.
These discussions are the CAP equivalent of Star Wars vs. Star Trek, etc. They rarely occur during missions or other real-world situations.
It is also a byproduct of an intersection of boredom and bandwidth.
^ Thank you.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2010, 04:44:25 AM
Quote from: Senty7 on November 22, 2010, 04:30:13 AMAs a non-CAP member who will decide whether to call out CAP resources to assist on a search in my jurisdiction, my question is this: Can you tell me if the leaders here are spending as much time, effort, energy, and reflection in ensuring that your groups, wings, squadrons, and members know how to search?
The simple answer is yes.
CAPTalk is not CAP, it is a discussion forum, and the point of a discussion forum is to discuss things. By a long shot most members aren't even aware of the issues involved in these discussions, let alone participating.
The fact that many of us are as invested in these discussions as we are is because we >are< actively involved in training and participating, and would like to see some of these baseline issue defined with two sentences and never discussed again, something
we can't seem to squeeze out of NHQ.
These discussions are the CAP equivalent of Star Wars vs. Star Trek, etc. The rarely occur during missions or other real-world situations.
It is also a byproduct of an intersection of boredom and bandwidth.
agree....
I post here and watch here because i care so deeply about the program on every level. We may disagree on a lot of things but in the end, i am still honored to serve among great men and women who get no pay, and (truly) little recognition out of what we do. Makes me proud everytime i put on the uniform.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 22, 2010, 04:54:29 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 22, 2010, 04:44:25 AM
Quote from: Senty7 on November 22, 2010, 04:30:13 AMAs a non-CAP member who will decide whether to call out CAP resources to assist on a search in my jurisdiction, my question is this: Can you tell me if the leaders here are spending as much time, effort, energy, and reflection in ensuring that your groups, wings, squadrons, and members know how to search?
The simple answer is yes.
CAPTalk is not CAP, it is a discussion forum, and the point of a discussion forum is to discuss things. By a long shot most members aren't even aware of the issues involved in these discussions, let alone participating.
The fact that many of us are as invested in these discussions as we are is because we >are< actively involved in training and participating, and would like to see some of these baseline issue defined with two sentences and never discussed again, something
we can't seem to squeeze out of NHQ.
These discussions are the CAP equivalent of Star Wars vs. Star Trek, etc. The rarely occur during missions or other real-world situations.
It is also a byproduct of an intersection of boredom and bandwidth.
agree....
I post here and watch here because i care so deeply about the program on every level. We may disagree on a lot of things but in the end, i am still honored to serve among great men and women who get no pay, and (truly) little recognition out of what we do. Makes me proud everytime i put on the uniform.
Very Much Agree!
:clap: :clap:
The major point of most of these threads is that the regs and manuals are at times ambiguous, contradictory, obsolete, and at times MIA on many issues. Not to mention policy letters, email orders, directives, etc. that vary from wing to wing, region to region, and many that originate at National that are never collected, codified, and published in any coherent or findable form. The switch to online regs has not changed this and in some cases has made it worse.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems silly to call the program Blue Beret. Why name the event after a silly French hat? Let's name it something meaningful. What is the focus of the program? SAR/UDF/GT or fashion? I don't understand why you couldn't wear a hat that you earned in a CAP activity. If you can't wear it for more than that week, then don't waste the money on it. Give out a patch or something.
Former NBB cadet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MedHanoUnoY
;D
Quote from: Thrash on November 24, 2010, 02:04:08 AM
I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems silly to call the program Blue Beret. Why name the event after a silly French hat? Let's name it something meaningful.
Why name the Green Berets in the army after a silly french hat?
Quote from: HGjunkie on November 24, 2010, 03:24:06 AM
Quote from: Thrash on November 24, 2010, 02:04:08 AM
I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems silly to call the program Blue Beret. Why name the event after a silly French hat? Let's name it something meaningful.
Why name the Green Berets in the army after a silly french hat?
They didn't. That's their nickname. The proper term is United States Army Special Forces
.
^^ Nice try. ;D Thank John Wayne for that. They're called "Special Forces," and within and between units they're referred to simply as "5th Group," "7th Group," etc. Can't help Hollywood. Never heard anyone in four years at Bragg say, "He's away at Green Beret School." Gunner C could probably give us all a bit more wisdom on this, as evidenced by the pedigree in his signature block.
I never was in SF, but I worked with them on a number of occasions, including VN, and I never heard them refer to themselves as Green Berets: always by Group or by SF. Oh well, that was another war and another time.
And the historical name of the blue berets is the "special service corps" unfortunaitly that name has been lost over the decades
Quote from: isuhawkeye on November 24, 2010, 01:10:20 PM
And the historical name of the blue berets is the "special service corps" unfortunaitly that name has been lost over the decades
Say Again? The 1st Special Service Force was a joint Canandian/American unit that fought with distinction in places like the Aluetian Islands in WW II. I thought their beret was red.
The blue beret as you know it in the Air Force starts with Air Force Combat Comptrollers and some PJs and then is awarded to Air Force Security Forces by act of the uniform board and CSAF sometime in the late 1970s. The Elite Guard of the Strategic Air Command were already wearing it.
Coming from that era of Security Forces, I can tell you that there was a certain amount of resentment between the Combat Controllers who wore it in Vietnam and those of us newly minted security specialists...I never fogot the dressing down I got from one at Elmendorf AFB, but then he bought me a beer and started to explain what he went through. The story could curl your toes. but I can tell you that over the years, the blue beret has been universally recognized with Security Forces.
Quote from: flyboy1 on November 24, 2010, 04:26:05 PM
Quote from: isuhawkeye on November 24, 2010, 01:10:20 PM
And the historical name of the blue berets is the "special service corps" unfortunaitly that name has been lost over the decades
Say Again? The 1st Special Service Force was a joint Canandian/American unit that fought with distinction in places like the Aluetian Islands in WW II. I thought their beret was red.
The blue beret as you know it in the Air Force starts with Air Force Combat Comptrollers and some PJs and then is awarded to Air Force Security Forces by act of the uniform board and CSAF sometime in the late 1970s. The Elite Guard of the Strategic Air Command were already wearing it.
Coming from that era of Security Forces, I can tell you that there was a certain amount of resentment between the Combat Controllers who wore it in Vietnam and those of us newly minted security specialists...but I can tell you that over the years, the blue beret has been universally recognized with Security Forces.
NBB has nothing to do with the Special Service Force or AF SF/PJ/etc. NBB started as the North Central Region Special Services Corps. and, much like the Army Special Forces were nicknamed Green Berets, got the nickname Blue Berets. This is highly simplified, for a full history, go here. (http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm)
Cool history. I stand corrected.
Always be careful not to confuse CAP Traditions with those of any other organization. Many people make this mistake when looking at CAP ribbons, activities and the like. Then ensues many posts based on misinterpretation of the tradition.
Actually it was first the iowa wing SSC. Shortly after that it became the NCRSSC, and as he program grew and evolved it became a national special activity.
Oops just saw the other post. Teds website is the best reference to NBB history
To clarify things... Blue Beret started "awarding" berets in 1969. Gen. Cass awarded dark blue french style berets. He mantained that tradition all the way to 1986. That was the last year we got the french-type berets.
why even issue a Blue Beret if you can wear it only one time?
Because... it's something to symbolize your service, participation, etc.
For some reason, berets have a very different connotation in the U.S. Armed Forces than about anywhere else. A lot of people here don't like them.
In the RAF Air Training Corps, they're a common everyday wear item, as well as by basic trainees:
(http://www.combinedcadetforce.com/img/RAF_ABOUT_BLUES.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JK9DZDBRgCc/TIC_WJEPILI/AAAAAAAAAIw/9tNxI720EOw/s1600/blogC.jpg)
It's that way pretty much throughout NATO and Commonwealth countries.
I've often wondered about wearing a grey/black beret with no insignia with the G/W uniform...no insignia, civilian headdress.
They don't fit the american culture, which is one of cowboy hats and ball caps.
The whole deal of many folks in CAP being so averse to berets were the cadets when they came back from these activities. They were real pains in the you-know-where with their elitist attitudes.
Maryland Wing was HORRIBLE for it! Not bashing the Hawkies, but you get the same thing with the cadets who come back from Ranger school. Not ALL... but some...
And they're not even wearing berets!
Sooooooo... should we ban orange ballcaps, pistol belts, chrome whistles and ascots to because they lead to elitist attitudes? Where does it stop???
None of that is approved outside PAWG, either, other than an orange ball cap if it's the properly approved unit hat.
FLWG has a supplement for NBB...
Quote from: a2capt on February 10, 2012, 07:21:33 AM
Because... it's something to symbolize your service, participation, etc.
+1
Among those of you arguing about this issue, how many have actually been to NBB? Or know a bit about the acitivities history? As a beret myself, all i see is a bunch of non-berets arguing over an issue that know little or nothing about. Most cadets and SM's dont even know where NBB is held, much less what goes/has gone on on there.
How about this. Those of you who argue and need education on the history and what we do at NBB, sign up to come. If you are as good a person as you say you are, getting in should not be that hard. Thee we can show you what we are really about.
The Beret is a symbol of the brotherhood, but it does not define the person. So for those of you who think the beret is what makes some people act out when wearing it, then it is not the beret, it is the person wearing it.
I am proud of my Beret, but i do not argue when someone tells me to take it off. If i have to, so be it. I am a beret, whether or not i am wearing one. Most people, and some berets are also guily of this, think that the beret makes the man. I STRONGLY disagree. Any true beret would say the same thing. It's all about the experience the Beret symbolizes.
I'm sorry for the slightly scathing remarks, but it irks me that people would dare talk about anything without knowing enough to constructively contribute to any argument or discussion in any meaningful manner.
-Rogovin
Rogovin,
Respectfully, the "you can't judge us until you've been there" argument is one that has not fared well around here (see: Hawk Mountain). I do appreciate what you're trying to say, but the approach just ends up making you look like someone who is out of ideas.
I'm not sure what the "Brotherhood of the Beret" is, probably because (like you said) I've never been to NBB, but I'm not sure why it entitles you to goofy headgear.
That's what people don't understand...
NBB is about the experiences, NOT the headgear. I can tell that arguement has not fared well, but it's not just not attending. People don't even bother to read up on NBB history, or even read through the thread before posting. it's a disgrace.
At least know the arguement, if not the topic.
But the point i am trying to get accross is this: The beret does not matter. The experiences it represents DO. That is why the Beret is so dear to those who have earned one.
- Rogovin
PS: please read up on NBB history: http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm (http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm)
There is quite a bit they don't tell you in there, and some recent years are missing. I can fill you in if you have any questions.
The issues have nothing to do with AirVenture as an activity and everything to do with the behavior of the participants when they come back to their
home units, so the "you can't know" argument is irrelevant to the conversation.
Knowing the history of the activity doesn't really help the discussion, since the original scope and mission are far removed from what it has beome today,
even to the point of many of the long-time participants disavowing the current actity.
If anything, it tells the story about what happens when an activity starts as "something", based on the personal initiative of a small group of people,
time passes and things evolve, people move on, and at some point the identity and history of the activity is co-opted by another group with little
relation to the original planners and mission.
I earned my maroon berets while in the army. I feel that I should be allowed to wear it in CAP Anybody that disagrees with it just doesn't understand what it means. ::) ::)
Get over it, or start a proposal to change it.
Really.
OK, I'm going to try to break this down a little bit to see if I can get a better grasp on this. For our purposes, I am going to use the present-day as context, because you can be nostalgic as you want but it won't change the reality of what exists today.
National Blue Beret is a 2.5 week activity teaching GTM/UDF skills and offering participants the opportunity to marshal aircraft and silence distress beacons. As a result of completing this activity, you are awarded a beret, which symbolizes your experience there. Essentially, the beret is a tangible reminder of the warm fuzzies that come as a result of participating in this activity.
I want you to listen to what you're saying. What you're basically saying is that "Learning GTM skills and volunteering at a specific airshow is an experience that nobody else can quite understand, and I am going to wear/possess my beret to remind me of what an amazing experience that is." Why is this experience any different than any other activity? It's a good one, and nobody is questioning that. The issue at hand here is why this experience entitles you to wear a different piece of headgear than everyone else. "But it's not about wearing the beret." Great, then don't wear it. Keep it like a challenge coin or group photo.
QuoteThe beret does not matter. The experiences it represents DO. That is why the Beret is so dear to those who have earned one.
That doesn't make any sense. What you're saying is "The beret isn't important, what's important is the experience that goes into earning the beret. That's why the beret is important."
Unless my little neurons just aren't firing in a straight line today (and that's entirely possible), I just don't get it.
Why is this argument always coming up? The first thing the NBB administrators should be telling the participants is that "the beret is not authorized to be worn outside of the activity. So take it off as soon as you get out of the van carrying you to the airport. When you get home buy a shadow box and put it in there"
Quote from: MSG Mac on February 10, 2012, 08:11:03 PM
Why is this argument always coming up? The first thing the NBB administrators should be telling the participants is that "the beret is not authorized to be worn outside of the activity. So take it off as soon as you get out of the van carrying you to the airport. When you get home buy a shadow box and put it in there"
But that is not a true statement.
The NB authorised the blue beret for wear at your home units.
Yes it is not in 39-1.
Bottom line is that wearing it or not is basically up to the unit commander. If you are the unit commander and you don't want your personnel to wear it....don't let them.
Same thing for the "attitude problems" from "elitist" activities.......anyone who claims that need to remove their grade insignia.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 10, 2012, 08:44:35 PM
Quote from: MSG Mac on February 10, 2012, 08:11:03 PM
Why is this argument always coming up? The first thing the NBB administrators should be telling the participants is that "the beret is not authorized to be worn outside of the activity. So take it off as soon as you get out of the van carrying you to the airport. When you get home buy a shadow box and put it in there"
But that is not a true statement.
The NB authorised the blue beret for wear at your home units.
Yes it is not in 39-1.
Bottom line is that wearing it or not is basically up to the unit commander. If you are the unit commander and you don't want your personnel to wear it....don't let them.
Same thing for the "attitude problems" from "elitist" activities.......anyone who claims that need to remove their grade insignia.
Not in CAPM 39-1 or any of the ICL's. I know there was it was intoduced at a NB meeting, but until they put it in writing, it never happened.
Actually, NB decisions are official, HOWEVER, members cannot be penalized for following OR not following the action until the is posted to the field. Which this one has not been.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 10, 2012, 07:33:16 PM
The issues have nothing to do with AirVenture as an activity and everything to do with the behavior of the participants when they come back to their
home units, so the "you can't know" argument is irrelevant to the conversation.
Knowing the history of the activity doesn't really help the discussion, since the original scope and mission are far removed from what it has beome today,
even to the point of many of the long-time participants disavowing the current actity.
If anything, it tells the story about what happens when an activity starts as "something", based on the personal initiative of a small group of people,
time passes and things evolve, people move on, and at some point the identity and history of the activity is co-opted by another group with little
relation to the original planners and mission.
With all due respect
sir, you are the definition of a hater. Sorry. Someone had to say it. I don't know your motives, and quite frankly i don't care. I am not the type to judge. i have no idea what bad experiences you may have had with beret's, and i'd be willing to bet it wasn't pretty. I know some of the cadets everyone describes as those who will not put the beret away when asked. In fact, a good friend of mine lost a staff position just for ASKING if he could wear it at a meeting.
It is people like you Eclipse, who don't realize that the majority of cadets who come out of NBB are perfectly willing to put the beret away when asked. But i do realize there are the few who do whine. And you make such a backlash and put ideas in the heads of people who have had no experiences with Berets. And unfortunately, you give them the wrong image.
Beret is much better with the "elitist" attitude than it has been in recent years. In fact, few know that NBB was almost completely cancelled. It may have been mentioned in the NBB history link i posted, but it doesn't matter. What people do not know is that it lost NCSA status in the 80's BECAUSE of the elitist attitude. The activity almost died because of that. But NBB realized that reform was needed. They changed, and the elitist attitude you describe is LONG gone.
Any preconceptions you have, with all due respect, are outdated, and DEAD wrong. If you started anew, and eliminated all preconceptions you may have about the NBB program, i guarantee that you will see it for what it truly is: a great activity with many wonderful participants. But i speak as a member of that group, and as an advocate. We do not need haters. You do not need to hate. And most importantly, you don't have to hate when there is utterly NO REASON.
Thank you.
-Rogovin
I have been watching this thread and other like it and i can no longer keep quiet. Rogovin remember your place in this organization and in the beret family. This is not an argument you can win as long as you have a C/whatever in front of your name. It is your job as a cadet to follow all orders quickly willingly and without question and realize that most of the time the best response is none at all or if you must say something yes sir will be acceptable. YOU are perpetuating the elitist attitude everyone is talking about weather you realize it or not. Understand that everyone is entitled to their opinions and the debate for or against berets is much older than you or I. So i strongly advise you to stop arguing on these threads before beret1 and 2 catch wind of this.
Remember above all else we are quiet professional. Beret2Golf out
Quote from: Noble Six on February 11, 2012, 12:42:05 AM
I have been watching this thread and other like it and i can no longer keep quiet. Rogovin remember your place in this organization and in the beret family. This is not an argument you can win as long as you have a C/whatever in front of your name. It is your job as a cadet to follow all orders quickly willingly and without question and realize that most of the time the best response is none at all or if you must say something yes sir will be acceptable. YOU are perpetuating the elitist attitude everyone is talking about weather you realize it or not. Understand that everyone is entitled to their opinions and the debate for or against berets is much older than you or I. So i strongly advise you to stop arguing on these threads before beret1 and 2 catch wind of this.
Remember above all else we are quiet professional. Beret2Golf out
my thoughts exactly...
Quote from: Noble Six on February 11, 2012, 12:42:05 AM
I have been watching this thread and other like it and i can no longer keep quiet. Rogovin remember your place in this organization and in the beret family. This is not an argument you can win as long as you have a C/whatever in front of your name. It is your job as a cadet to follow all orders quickly willingly and without question and realize that most of the time the best response is none at all or if you must say something yes sir will be acceptable. YOU are perpetuating the elitist attitude everyone is talking about weather you realize it or not. Understand that everyone is entitled to their opinions and the debate for or against berets is much older than you or I. So i strongly advise you to stop arguing on these threads before beret1 and 2 catch wind of this.
Remember above all else we are quiet professional. Beret2Golf out
Yessir.
-Rogovin
Blue Beret, Hawk Mountain or whatever does not put a cadet on the same level as USAF Pararescue, Army Rangers, Navy SEALS, Marine Recon and whatever snake-eaters the Coast Guard has (?), as I'm sure one of those elite forces would be glad to remind you.
Some members on here have talked about having worn distinctive berets for Security Forces, Army Airborne, etc., no doubt well-earned. My MTI was Security Police (that's what they called it back then) but he did not wear his beret - he wore his campaign hat. After going back off MTI duty, no more campaign hat and back to his beret.
Neither can be worn in CAP, as we don't have Security Forces, Airborne or MTI's.
A former squadron of mine had a retired Army Drill Sergeant who came in as a CAP TSgt. I remember we did some checking to see if he could wear a USAF MTI hat, but no dice - he hadn't been an AF MTI and he wasn't in an MTI duty slot, because CAP doesn't have them.
In various settings, I've encountered graduates of both Hawk Mountain and Blue Beret. They are significant accomplishments, but there are two salient facts:
1. It does not entitle you to lord it over your fellow cadets. ALL cadets belong to a "brotherhood/sisterhood" - CAP.
2. It does not entitle you to be disrespectful to senior CAP officers or NCO's.
It was never my intent to disrespect. However, i find it slightly hypocritical that others disrespect me and my fellow berets in a similar manner. All cadets are part of CAP, and only a small part of them are beret's. I know that.
All cadets are part of a brotherhood/sisterhood, but NBB is something else. I realize it is not the military, but all the same, it is a family all its own. It's the first true cadre of its kind i have ever been in, and that makes it special. I don't like it when others accuse Beret's of being elitist, and whenever someone tries to defend the program and it's values, demean that person and the entire NBB program.
I just don't think it is right.
I never and will never meant/mean any disrespect. I'm dearly sorry if i have to anyone here.
But please. Argue with open minds, not negative preconceptions.
Let's all live by the core values, please. Integrity, excellence, volunteer service, and respect.
-Rogovin
I still have trouble seeing how attending a major airshow entitles you to wear a special uniform accessory and to cop a major 'tude.
And before you start, yes I have not attended Oshkosh as a CAP participant. But I have attended twice as a airshow participant.
So I do have a pretty good idea of what you guys do. One of the things a lot of participants do is watch you guys to see what will happen next...
Phall, it does NOT entitle anyone to cop an attitude. That almost killed the activity outright many years ago.
-Rogovin
Quote from: Rogovin on February 11, 2012, 03:41:49 AM
Phall, it does NOT entitle anyone to cop an attitude. That almost killed the activity outright many years ago.
And as you did point out, NBB and Oshkosh are perhaps one of the biggest Public Affairs events that CAP does.
It would not make sense for them to send cadets that cop attitudes, especially in that environment. Many of the berets who attend do not return home with such attitudes.
I myself have not worn my beret in months. I only get to wear it in BDU's at squadron meetings, depending on the occasion. But that does not matter. What matters is the experience i took back to and shared with my unit. I also was able to assist in a major mission for over a week. I even spent six hours guarding the crash site of an F-16.
I'm surprised that most people don't see the beret for what it is: a hat. Just that. A plain and simple piece of headgear. What has a beret ever done to you to deserve such spite? And to those of you who say the "elitist" attitude, remember this: that was the NBB of the past, not of the present.
If you don't believe me, ask Maj Morris, or Lt. Col Peace, the assistant activity director and activity director, respectively. I know Maj. Morris is on Captalk, but i do not know how often. They will prove to you that they run a clean and wholesome activity. And i remember them saying repeatedly about how and why NOT to act elitist, much for the reasons some of you mention.
NBB is not about the attitude. For all this "elitist" attitude talk bandied about, i have never seen a specific example of one time a Beret has caused an issue. Everyone quotes the same generic stories. So by all means, prove me wrong, but do it legitimately, don't just quote the herd. I am open to all opinions, if you can sway me with logic.
-Rogovin
I have seen a number of cadets come back from their "Wisconsin Vacation" with a 'tude. Which led to a total ban on all beret wear in California Wing for a number of years.
Some of your predessors have done you guys a major disservice. And you still have cadets come back from Blue Beret with a case of the 'tude.
Not many, just enough to ruin your guys rep.
But less and less have been coming back over recent years. It's getting much better.
-Rogovin
There's a big difference between "disagreement" and "disrespect". I'd be real curious what you find "disrespectful".
It's all just words on a page, Eclipse.
;)
It's only disrespect when personal insult is involved. This is an unofficial discussion forum. We are SUPPOSED to disagree.
Although i must say, i was rather looking forward to a decent battle of wits. If there is one thing you do well eclipse, it is logos.
-Rogovin
Quote from: Rogovin on February 11, 2012, 03:41:49 AMI'm surprised that most people don't see the beret for what it is: a hat. Just that. A plain and simple piece of headgear.
You appear to display an enormous amount of attachment to wearing a style of headgear that you describe as fairly meaningless.
Cadets (and in some cases senior members) who complete challenging NCSAs earn a ribbon and a patch. For some reason we have two activities that feel they deserve additional methods of displaying their participation. I don't agree with that. NBB is a great activity, just like the rest of the NCSAs.
The fact that cadets (and unfortunately many senior members) refer to themselves and fellow NBB participants as "berets" reveals, at least to me, how over-infatuated the participants are with the headgear.
QuoteAnd as you did point out, NBB and Oshkosh are perhaps one of the biggest Public Affairs events that CAP does.
If this is a shining example of our PR engine at work, then it is my opinion we have a lot of work to do in this area. Other than facebook postings by participants, one article on the EAA website about the
non-NBB cadets working the airshow, and one article in the
volunteer (that wasn't written by the NBB PR team), I didn't see anything that suggested the event had a large public affairs impact. I also don't think that's the primary mission of the activity and I wouldn't factor public affairs into the overall worth of the activity.
Rogovin you make yourself look absolutely silly when you refer to yourself as a "beret". You are a cadet in CAP who attended a NCSA. Attendance at NBB entitles you to wear a "special" hat while there. You have not become anything different than any other cadet.
As a matter of fact you insult those in the United States Army Special Forces by referring to yourself as a "beret" as this is a play on the term "Green Beret" a well earned nickname for some of the best soldiers in the world, a far cry from a cadet in CAP.
Grow up.
Quote from: Rogovin on February 11, 2012, 04:48:53 AM
It's all just words on a page, Eclipse.
;)
It's only disrespect when personal insult is involved. This is an unofficial discussion forum. We are SUPPOSED to disagree.
Although i must say, i was rather looking forward to a decent battle of wits. If there is one thing you do well eclipse, it is logos.
-Rogovin
Sorry, but you're SOOOOO WRONG and your subtle attitude strikes at the heart of the problem. So, you went to an Air Show and you got all pumped up because NBB can be more intensive than an encampment. Great, glad you liked it, now come back down to Earth.
I have long been a proponent of one set of standardized badges and insignia to be worn by the graduates of NBB, Hawk Mountain and what ever else is out there. It levels the playing field and gives you the recognition you deserve. Do I advocate for a NBB blue beret, no and this is why. The attitude displayed by most of the graduates, whether they are Hawk Mountain or NBB, can destroy a unit once those individuals return to their home units; something that I've watched happen since I was a cadet in -- guess where -- the Pennsylvania Wing.
I know of a current CAP cadet who came back from his first NBB, sporting not just a beret but also a ground team leaders badge, a SAR Ribbon with a device and a find ribbon with devices and even an Army MP brassard. He even tore the lining out of his beret, saying that was the way it was done, when in my era of AF Security Forces, I would have been challenged for making a uniform item unservicable. You can imagine what that displayed attitude did for his unit. To this day -- and he attended in 2010 -- he has never complied with instructions and provided his unit commander with his documentation. It took the Group ES Officer to sit him down during a SAREX to try and get thing ironed out.
Instead of promoting leadership and team work, an air of resentment was stirred. Is that what you were taught at NBB...all that for just helping at an airshow.
Frankly, I'm more impressed with the grads who come back from NESA. So many that I've met have this quiet style of professionalism, some even come back with a deer-in-the-headlights look from what they've learned....and their insignia, with the exception of the patch and baseball cap, is standardized.
The point is that I'm glad you feel so much pride in your accomplishment -- you should -- but there comes a time when that is supposed to be mirrored from the inside to set an example and not a blue hat that is thrust down everyone's throats.
You need to get with the program and take it from an individual who once earned a blue beret in AF Security Forces. Sure, my beret represents a bond with very devoted family of quiet men and women who share a lot of pride for what they do, but I never needed that beret to prove who I was.
Quote from: Rogovin on February 11, 2012, 03:41:49 AM
Phall, it does NOT entitle anyone to cop an attitude. That almost killed the activity outright many years ago.
What almost killed NBB was the attitudes of the folks coming out of it, not those of us afflicted with them.
QuoteAnd as you did point out, NBB and Oshkosh are perhaps one of the biggest Public Affairs events that CAP does.
Why haven't we seen any PR about it?
QuoteIt would not make sense for them to send cadets that cop attitudes, especially in that environment. Many of the berets who attend do not return home with such attitudes.
But many do return home with attitudes.
QuoteI myself have not worn my beret in months. I only get to wear it in BDU's at squadron meetings, depending on the occasion. But that does not matter. What matters is the experience i took back to and shared with my unit. I also was able to assist in a major mission for over a week. I even spent six hours guarding the crash site of an F-16.
I'm surprised that most people don't see the beret for what it is: a hat. Just that. A plain and simple piece of headgear. What has a beret ever done to you to deserve such spite? And to those of you who say the "elitist" attitude, remember this: that was the NBB of the past, not of the present.
So you had a good experience. The problem isn't the hat iteself. The problems are the folks wearing the hat. What has any NBB grad done to deserve such spite? Let's see...how about violating the wing commander's published directive that berets will NOT be worn in the wing. Telling cadets (and seniors) the wing commander DOESN"T HAVE THE AUTHORITY to ban berets in the wing. Then we have the cadet officer from a wing the did allow berets to be worn wearing outside the wing (not merely next door, but halfway across the country) with their service uniform because "I didn't feel like packing my flght cap." When told that CAPM 39-1 specifically limits the beret to wear with the bdu, the response was yeah and why are you busting my chops over it? Oh, and these were in the last three years, not 20+ years ago when the SAME PROBLEMS EXISTED.
QuoteIf you don't believe me, ask Maj Morris, or Lt. Col Peace, the assistant activity director and activity director, respectively. I know Maj. Morris is on Captalk, but i do not know how often. They will prove to you that they run a clean and wholesome activity. And i remember them saying repeatedly about how and why NOT to act elitist, much for the reasons some of you mention.
It really doesn't matter what they say. What matters is the results and, in my experience, they've been split 50/50. I've only had the (mis)fortune of dealing with 4 or 5 NBB grads in the past 10 years. To you, that may be an insignificant number, but when half had copped attitudes, it's significant.
QuoteNBB is not about the attitude. For all this "elitist" attitude talk bandied about, i have never seen a specific example of one time a Beret has caused an issue. Everyone quotes the same generic stories. So by all means, prove me wrong, but do it legitimately, don't just quote the herd. I am open to all opinions, if you can sway me with logic.
-Rogovin
You asked, I gave.
.Good thing there are not more fellow defenders running around here. I know a ew who would be up in arms over this.
Quote from: arajca on February 11, 2012, 03:26:21 PMThen we have the cadet officer from a wing the did allow berets to be worn wearing outside the wing (not merely next door, but halfway across the country) with their service uniform because "I didn't feel like packing my flght cap." When told that CAPM 39-1 specifically limits the beret to wear with the bdu
Read it again......39-1 does not say that. The NB agenda where they authorised them for wear outside of NBB did say BDUs only and KB will tell you BDUs only....but 39-1 does not.
The argument that Cadets cop attitude about the beret when they return home is an easy fix.
The arugment that cadets argue with SM about their interpetation of the regulations/NB agendas/KB/What they were told at NBB is an easy fix.
Banning berets for eveyone across the board because of a, let's be honest, a few isolated cases of bad attitudes is NOT the answer.
Getting the real information into 39-1 or at least a ICL and enforcing it is.
I got no problem will pulling a stripe or a pip from someone who cops attitidue or wants to argue with me too much over my authority as a commander. It fixes the problems real quick.
I think that the NBB 'tude could be eliminated by a conversation with the cadet before he runs off to Oshkosh to drink the Kool Aid.
We've only had one cadet attend in recent memory. Before he left, we talked about the beret. We asked him to bring it to a meeting upon his return, and do a little show-and-tell about the activity. And by the way, that's not authorized head gear afterwards.
Like a lot of things, setting expectations in advance can go a long way towards preventing issues down the road.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 11, 2012, 05:16:25 PM
Quote from: arajca on February 11, 2012, 03:26:21 PMThen we have the cadet officer from a wing the did allow berets to be worn wearing outside the wing (not merely next door, but halfway across the country) with their service uniform because "I didn't feel like packing my flght cap." When told that CAPM 39-1 specifically limits the beret to wear with the bdu
Read it again......39-1 does not say that. The NB agenda where they authorised them for wear outside of NBB did say BDUs only and KB will tell you BDUs only....but 39-1 does not.
The argument that Cadets cop attitude about the beret when they return home is an easy fix.
The arugment that cadets argue with SM about their interpetation of the regulations/NB agendas/KB/What they were told at NBB is an easy fix.
Banning berets for eveyone across the board because of a, let's be honest, a few isolated cases of bad attitudes is NOT the answer.
Getting the real information into 39-1 or at least a ICL and enforcing it is.
I got no problem will pulling a stripe or a pip from someone who cops attitidue or wants to argue with me too much over my authority as a commander. It fixes the problems real quick.
+1. I attended twice as a Cadet and will be attending this summer as a TAC. The majority of the former attendees that I've encountered thought it was an excellent activity that let them do some cool stuff and gave them a meaningful momento (the beret) that reminded them of the experience. The individuals described above, demanding special treatment and wearing unearned blingage because of a summer camp they went to are few and far between.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 11, 2012, 05:16:25 PM
Quote from: arajca on February 11, 2012, 03:26:21 PMThen we have the cadet officer from a wing the did allow berets to be worn wearing outside the wing (not merely next door, but halfway across the country) with their service uniform because "I didn't feel like packing my flght cap." When told that CAPM 39-1 specifically limits the beret to wear with the bdu
Read it again......39-1 does not say that. The NB agenda where they authorised them for wear outside of NBB did say BDUs only and KB will tell you BDUs only....but 39-1 does not.
OK. I stand corrected.
Quote from: 68w10 on February 11, 2012, 05:47:50 PM
The individuals described above, demanding special treatment and wearing unearned blingage because of a summer camp they went to are few and far between.
As mentioned before - not in my experience. They make up about 50% of the NBB grads I've encountered. I keep hearing they are few and far between and that I've had the bad luck of runing into most of the bad apples. Therefore, until I run into significantly more good apples (if they're really out there), I have no real reason to change my opinion of NBB.
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 11, 2012, 01:03:19 PM
I have long been a proponent of one set of standardized badges and insignia to be worn by the graduates of NBB, Hawk Mountain and what ever else is out there. It levels the playing field and gives you the recognition you deserve.
I've never heard that idea, how exactly would this work?
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 11, 2012, 01:03:19 PMHe even tore the lining out of his beret, saying that was the way it was done, when in my era of AF Security Forces, I would have been challenged for making a uniform item unservicable.
In his defense, that's what we were taught both times that I was at NBB (06/08). There are many different ways to shape a beret, including removal of the liner in order to make it more form fitting.
Quote from: arajca on February 11, 2012, 05:52:16 PM
Quote from: 68w10 on February 11, 2012, 05:47:50 PM
The individuals described above, demanding special treatment and wearing unearned blingage because of a summer camp they went to are few and far between.
As mentioned before - not in my experience. They make up about 50% of the NBB grads I've encountered. I keep hearing they are few and far between and that I've had the bad luck of runing into most of the bad apples. Therefore, until I run into significantly more good apples (if they're really out there), I have no real reason to change my opinion of NBB.
That's unfortunate and I'm sorry that you've had the bad luck to run into them. That being said I assure you that we are out here and I hope you run into us in the future.
In 12 years of being SF I can say that removal of the liner was highly encouraged if the beret you received had one. It makes it easier to shape and presents a more cleaner professional appearance. Our biggest thing and the biggest pet peeve for alot across the board was keeping the flash clean. I also wore a beret when I was on JROTC during functions as well. It was a great tool for us and motivator but we could only wear them (JROTC wise) for certain things and anything outside of that required ASI/AASI approval.
Quote from: arajca on February 11, 2012, 05:52:16 PM
Quote from: 68w10 on February 11, 2012, 05:47:50 PM
The individuals described above, demanding special treatment and wearing unearned blingage because of a summer camp they went to are few and far between.
As mentioned before - not in my experience. They make up about 50% of the NBB grads I've encountered. I keep hearing they are few and far between and that I've had the bad luck of runing into most of the bad apples. Therefore, until I run into significantly more good apples (if they're really out there), I have no real reason to change my opinion of NBB.
I've send 1-2 cadets every year to NBB....and never had any problems with the attitude.
I have more attitude problems from cadets comming back from encampment staff then I do from HGA, NBB or PJOC....I don't worry about attitude problems from other peoples cadets....that someone else's problem. ;D
Rogovin...
I feel more than qualifed to speak on Blue Beret because I attended in 1986, '87, '88, '89 (The REAL Blue Beret) and then NBB 1999.
Funny how a hat stirs up sooooooo much controversy.
@LordMonar
you should be happy with them. If Cruz and Smith were any indication, you have a great bunch of cadets. I hope to see more this coming summer.
I think i am going to stop arguing on this topic now, my words seem to have little effect, other than stirring the hornets nest.
-Rogovin
Quote from: cpyahoo on February 12, 2012, 01:18:32 AM
Funny how a hat stirs up sooooooo much controversy.
It's not the hat. It's the attitude of some people who wear it.
By "@Lordmonar" i mean to direct my statements at him. It was not any twitter reference. I do not even have a twitter account. I am sorry if i confused you.
-Rogovin
Sometimes Eclipse confuses easily. >:D
No harm. No foul. ;)
Quote from: Rogovin on February 12, 2012, 04:12:39 AM
By "@Lordmonar" i mean to direct my statements at him. It was not any twitter reference. I do not even have a twitter account. I am sorry if i confused you.
-Rogovin
I don't have Twitter and I knew what you meant.
So, because so many of my fellow CAP officers complain that they never see EAA put CAP in any publication or movie, at the end of EAA Airventure 2011 I put a bug into the ear of several of my contacts at EAA Airventure PAO and asked if they could slip a little CAP into it. So here you are folks, we made 2 seconds of a 2 min video. It's small, but it's a start!
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1094395473001 (http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1094395473001)
The cadets featured are performing part of our ES mission at Airventure. They are located at the south SAR tower logging all arrivals and departures, including tail numbers, descriptions of A/C and any "hard landings" or go arounds that might set off an ELT. When CAP is alerted to start looking for an overdue aircraft, we start with the lists at both north tower (runway 9/27) and south tower (runway 18/36) to see if the A/C have even landed at Oshkosh. These records are handed over to the FAA and EAA and are considered the official count of A/C for EAA Airventure. It is also used by the FAA to certify that Oshkosh is indeed the "busiest airport in the world" for those 2 weeks.
P.S. My 1000 post!!!
How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?
Quote from: Eclipse on February 12, 2012, 09:50:03 PM
How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?
I guess I am not sure what you are asking here.
Can you expand your question?
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 11, 2012, 05:43:31 PM
I think that the NBB 'tude could be eliminated by a conversation with the cadet before he runs off to Oshkosh to drink the Kool Aid.
we drink "purple drank" in WI not kool aid :P
Quote from: shlebz on February 13, 2012, 12:18:15 AM
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 11, 2012, 05:43:31 PM
I think that the NBB 'tude could be eliminated by a conversation with the cadet before he runs off to Oshkosh to drink the Kool Aid.
we drink "purple drank" in WI not kool aid :P
Shelbz, do you realize what someone is referring to when they say that someone or some group "drank the Kool Aid"?
... and it's not always a bad thing.
Quote from: ol'fido on February 13, 2012, 12:21:39 AM
Quote from: shlebz on February 13, 2012, 12:18:15 AM
Quote from: EMT-83 on February 11, 2012, 05:43:31 PM
I think that the NBB 'tude could be eliminated by a conversation with the cadet before he runs off to Oshkosh to drink the Kool Aid.
we drink "purple drank" in WI not kool aid :P
Shelbz, do you realize what someone is referring to when they say that someone or some group "drank the Kool Aid"?
yes i do realize what he was implying, but i was merely making making a joke. Trying to lighten the mood a little?
Quote from: NCRblues on February 12, 2012, 09:55:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 12, 2012, 09:50:03 PM
How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?
I guess I am not sure what you are asking here.
Can you expand your question?
Why do we have to hunt so hard to find CAP people when we are presented as a "partner"?
If you go to any local airshow where CAP has a significant presence, you'll have to work hard to
find photos that don't have our people in the background, part of the crowd, etc.
But with Airventure, you have to work really hard to find photos of CAP people there at all,
except for photos published by CAP. And in their official collateral and we don't appear at all,
not as a partner, supporting agency or sponsor.
And then there's the National Geographic documentary I always bring up which shows Airventure
end-to-end from empty field to empty field without a single mention or image of CAP, despite making
a fair deal about all the volunteer support they depend on.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 13, 2012, 01:14:30 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 12, 2012, 09:55:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 12, 2012, 09:50:03 PM
How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?
I guess I am not sure what you are asking here.
Can you expand your question?
Why do we have to hunt so hard to find CAP people when we are presented as a "partner"?
If you go to any local airshow where CAP has a significant presence, you'll have to work hard to
find photos that don't have our people in the background, part of the crowd, etc.
But with Airventure, you have to work really hard to find photos of CAP people there at all,
except for photos published by CAP. And in their official collateral and we don't appear at all,
not as a partner, supporting agency or sponsor.
And then there's the National Geographic documentary I always bring up which shows Airventure
end-to-end from empty field to empty field without a single mention or image of CAP, despite making
a fair deal about all the volunteer support they depend on.
Maybe you could help us with that, Eclipse.
-Rogovin
Quote from: Eclipse on February 13, 2012, 01:14:30 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 12, 2012, 09:55:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 12, 2012, 09:50:03 PM
How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?
I guess I am not sure what you are asking here.
Can you expand your question?
Why do we have to hunt so hard to find CAP people when we are presented as a "partner"?
If you go to any local airshow where CAP has a significant presence, you'll have to work hard to
find photos that don't have our people in the background, part of the crowd, etc.
But with Airventure, you have to work really hard to find photos of CAP people there at all,
except for photos published by CAP. And in their official collateral and we don't appear at all,
not as a partner, supporting agency or sponsor.
And then there's the National Geographic documentary I always bring up which shows Airventure
end-to-end from empty field to empty field without a single mention or image of CAP, despite making
a fair deal about all the volunteer support they depend on.
??
That's because people are taking photos of exhibits, aircraft, performances and other intresting stuff.
Go to the Star Trek convention....see how many photos have security in the back ground.
Go to the CES and see how many photos show the valet parkers.
Go to the Aviation Nation air show...and see how many phots show the janitors.
Your complaint is that CAP dose not get enough mention or press time when we are supporting someone else's event?
Not is not the way it works.
I heard the same complaints comming out of Katrina or 911.
You can not expect the "media" to focus on what YOU think is important to YOUR oganisation.
You can not expect your host or partner to spare some of its PR efforts your way.
Those sorts of things must actively be worked by YOUR OWN PR people.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 13, 2012, 01:14:30 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 12, 2012, 09:55:08 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 12, 2012, 09:50:03 PM
How is CAP not simply a part of the fabric of the activity?
I guess I am not sure what you are asking here.
Can you expand your question?
Why do we have to hunt so hard to find CAP people when we are presented as a "partner"?
If you go to any local airshow where CAP has a significant presence, you'll have to work hard to
find photos that don't have our people in the background, part of the crowd, etc.
But with Airventure, you have to work really hard to find photos of CAP people there at all,
except for photos published by CAP. And in their official collateral and we don't appear at all,
not as a partner, supporting agency or sponsor.
And then there's the National Geographic documentary I always bring up which shows Airventure
end-to-end from empty field to empty field without a single mention or image of CAP, despite making
a fair deal about all the volunteer support they depend on.
I think that the scope of Airventure also has an effect on it. When you look at the sheer size of it compared to other airshows in the midwest, RFD Airfest, or Chicago Air and Water Show for example, it's no wonder that CAP is simply lost in the periphery. We're talking about an event that takes place over a week involving thousands of aircraft and tens of thousands of people from all over the world. Between NBB and WIWG's mission CAP sends at most 500 personnel to work Airventure, so I don't see it as being that big of a surprise that we have a difficulty being noticed.
Well a part is the sheer size of EAA Airventure. Another part is the star power that it draws in. Who wants to look at a random 16 year old cadet looking for an ELT when they can watch/read about John Travolta flying in his 707 and walking around and shaking hands? Celebrities and aviation celebrities take up a massive amount of the EAA's PAO staff time.
Another part is funding. EAA Airventure is where the EAA makes their cold hard cash. Approximately 10,000 A/C, and about 250,000 visitors a day, plus camping and parking. All of them are paying to be there. CAP is not giving them a dime. Money talks plain and simple. EAA never focuses for very long on any of the volunteers. It's all about the people that pay, and I do not hold that against them at all.
Last and the largest part. The EAA holds grudges for an amazingly long time. There are ww2 pilots that attend every year that will not talk to other EAA sections because of some slight 40 years ago.
CAPs story begins in 2001. In 2001 the EAA asked NBB to provide manpower to set up tents, help old ladies walk around all day, help mark aircraft for refueling, help refuel golf carts and gators all day long. This request was on top of still marshalling all A/C using runway 9/27, providing warbirds flight line security and providing ES (securing accident scene, ELT hunts, missing persons search, lost or overdue A/C search ext). NBB simply did not have enough man power, and NHQ said our cadets can't do some of the things that EAA asked. NBB had to say no, we tried to explain that ES had to come first because it was an AF mission with mission number. They wanted nothing to do with that and ignored it. The EAA became angry and even irate that we would not help them. It took many years of hard work to dig ourselves out of that mess.
Then after hard work and good will towards EAA on our part, we were just starting to get back into the good graces when the bottom dropped out in 2006. In 06 HWSRN appointed one of his good friends to command NBB. This person had JUST been promoted to Captain the week before NBB started. HWSRN decided that he would show up as Nat/CC and stay the whole time, But not on the NBB compound. He had CAP pay to rent out a HOUSE outside the airport for all 2 weeks. He then demanded that EAA give him a vehicle pass for his CAP SUV. The EAA does not want lots of vehicles running around the airfield so they refused. He then demanded a "command golf cart" from the EAA so that he could be driven around the air show and not have to do any walking.
The EAA had previously asked CAP not to sing Jodie's when marching to the work stations. HWSRN's good friend who was in command that year ordered the TAC's and flights to ignore what the EAA said and "sing loud and proud".
On one of the last days HWSRN called the EAA PAO HQ and asked that they send a crew to a "special ceremony". The EAA agreed thinking it was going to be NBB's graduation ceremony. The EAA sent a full camera and newspaper crew to the compound. When they arrived, they found half of the 12 flights in civilian cloths playing volleyball, the other half was finishing up the last shifts of the day at the work stations. They set up the cameras and had the newspaper writer stay anyway thinking the other half of the flight would graduate. Instead, they witnessed a promotion ceremony for HWSRN's good friend from Captain to Major. HWSRN said the promotion was a "field promotion" for gallantry and hard work in organizing "this whole airshow". The EAA was livid. They stormed off the compound and the president of the EAA showed up to have a closed door meeting with the NBB staff.
It was contemplated by the EAA to not ask us back. They did, but it took a lot of promises that nothing like that can ever happen again. Simply put, we are still digging out of this one.
Now I am sure someone on here will say that was years ago, or the EAA needs to get over it. But, put yourself in the EAA shoes. Would you be happy with CAP?
Even though it is only one picture in a small official video, it is a huge step for NBB and CAP. I hope this helps explain the lack of publicity from the EAA.
Me personally, CAP needs to pull out of EAA. We are NOT their personal slaves, something CAP hasn't quite figured out. Back in 1999, we had a CAP-EAA liaison that couldn't figure out what "no" meant when it came to dealing with the EAA. It was 105 degrees outside and the EAA and Young Eagles pulled their people off the line. Not CAP! "Yeah, we'll fill in for them!"
As for it being "Blue Beret", they just need to kank the whole beret deal. It's nothing like it used to be!
Quote from: NCRblues on February 13, 2012, 05:05:04 AM
Then after hard work and good will towards EAA on our part, we were just starting to get back into the good graces when the bottom dropped out in 2006. In 06 HWSRN appointed one of his good friends to command NBB. This person had JUST been promoted to Captain the week before NBB started. HWSRN decided that he would show up as Nat/CC and stay the whole time, But not on the NBB compound. He had CAP pay to rent out a HOUSE outside the airport for all 2 weeks. He then demanded that EAA give him a vehicle pass for his CAP SUV. The EAA does not want lots of vehicles running around the airfield so they refused. He then demanded a "command golf cart" from the EAA so that he could be driven around the air show and not have to do any walking.
The EAA had previously asked CAP not to sing Jodie's when marching to the work stations. HWSRN's good friend who was in command that year ordered the TAC's and flights to ignore what the EAA said and "sing loud and proud".
On one of the last days HWSRN called the EAA PAO HQ and asked that they send a crew to a "special ceremony". The EAA agreed thinking it was going to be NBB's graduation ceremony. The EAA sent a full camera and newspaper crew to the compound. When they arrived, they found half of the 12 flights in civilian cloths playing volleyball, the other half was finishing up the last shifts of the day at the work stations. They set up the cameras and had the newspaper writer stay anyway thinking the other half of the flight would graduate. Instead, they witnessed a promotion ceremony for HWSRN's good friend from Captain to Major. HWSRN said the promotion was a "field promotion" for gallantry and hard work in organizing "this whole airshow". The EAA was livid. They stormed off the compound and the president of the EAA showed up to have a closed door meeting with the NBB staff.
I feel it is necessary to question the validity of this account based on my personal experience. I apologize if this comes across as an ad hominem attack upon you, as I assure you that that is not my intent. I was present in 2006 as a Cadet, and while that role severely limited my scope of the activity as a whole, I did not witness any of what you described. NBB CC was not, as you say, a Captain later promoted to Major; but was in fact Col. Austyn Granville, former NERCC. We were not told to "sing loud and proud" but rather that we were not to sing cadence at all per EAA's request.
*Edited for grammar
Quote from: 68w10 on February 13, 2012, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 13, 2012, 05:05:04 AM
Then after hard work and good will towards EAA on our part, we were just starting to get back into the good graces when the bottom dropped out in 2006. In 06 HWSRN appointed one of his good friends to command NBB. This person had JUST been promoted to Captain the week before NBB started. HWSRN decided that he would show up as Nat/CC and stay the whole time, But not on the NBB compound. He had CAP pay to rent out a HOUSE outside the airport for all 2 weeks. He then demanded that EAA give him a vehicle pass for his CAP SUV. The EAA does not want lots of vehicles running around the airfield so they refused. He then demanded a "command golf cart" from the EAA so that he could be driven around the air show and not have to do any walking.
The EAA had previously asked CAP not to sing Jodie's when marching to the work stations. HWSRN's good friend who was in command that year ordered the TAC's and flights to ignore what the EAA said and "sing loud and proud".
On one of the last days HWSRN called the EAA PAO HQ and asked that they send a crew to a "special ceremony". The EAA agreed thinking it was going to be NBB's graduation ceremony. The EAA sent a full camera and newspaper crew to the compound. When they arrived, they found half of the 12 flights in civilian cloths playing volleyball, the other half was finishing up the last shifts of the day at the work stations. They set up the cameras and had the newspaper writer stay anyway thinking the other half of the flight would graduate. Instead, they witnessed a promotion ceremony for HWSRN's good friend from Captain to Major. HWSRN said the promotion was a "field promotion" for gallantry and hard work in organizing "this whole airshow". The EAA was livid. They stormed off the compound and the president of the EAA showed up to have a closed door meeting with the NBB staff.
I feel it is necessary to question the validity of this account based on my personal experience. I apologize if this comes across as an ad hominem attack upon you, as I assure you that that is not my intent. I was present in 2006 as a Cadet, and while that role severely limited my scope of the activity as a whole, I did not witness any of what you described. NBB CC was not, as you say, a Captain later promoted to Major; but was in fact Col. Austyn Granville, former NERCC. We were not told to "sing loud and proud" but rather that we were not to sing cadence at all per EAA's request.
*Edited for grammar
I was on staff. Col. Granville was originally slotted as director. He was replaced by captain/major Shannon Juhl, but cadets where never informed, and neither was NHQ. HWSRN replaced 3 other staff positions at will during the activity. This is also the time that HWSRN showed up in a beret with a "maj com" badge in place of the St. Albans pin. Near the end no one knew who was in charge of anything. 2006 and the escapades that happened forced CAP to switch NBB to a IC command style system. Now each area of NBB (like logistics, TACs, Cooks, ES, Admin, PAO) all have "section chiefs" that are appointed in writing to NHQ by the director and names are provided to the EAA and FAA so they know who to talk and go to in case they need something.
The CQ log at the gate records (to this day) that HWSRN and Shannon Juhl left the compound every night together and Ms. Juhl would reappear at about 4am on most days. The situation got worse as the days went on and more than one staff member requested to leave and go home. One staff member did in fact leave 4 days early and filed an IG complaint against HWSRN and Shannon Juhl. About 6 months later that member resigned from CAP after the IG complaint when no where.
Not to sound rude to you, but every effort was made to keep the cadets away from the situation and to keep them motivated and happy with the activity. Nothing is worse than very low cadet moral at an all volunteer activity.
As to the singing, my flight was one of the flights told to ignore EAA orders and go ahead and sing. Unfortunate but all of this is true.
I did not tell this story to stir up the past, its over and done and none of the major players are even in CAP anymore. I told this story so that those members of this board who think that the EAA should sing our praises could see that CAP has not helped ourselves with an already limited PAO opportunity.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 13, 2012, 08:47:19 PM
Quote from: 68w10 on February 13, 2012, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 13, 2012, 05:05:04 AM
Then after hard work and good will towards EAA on our part, we were just starting to get back into the good graces when the bottom dropped out in 2006. In 06 HWSRN appointed one of his good friends to command NBB. This person had JUST been promoted to Captain the week before NBB started. HWSRN decided that he would show up as Nat/CC and stay the whole time, But not on the NBB compound. He had CAP pay to rent out a HOUSE outside the airport for all 2 weeks. He then demanded that EAA give him a vehicle pass for his CAP SUV. The EAA does not want lots of vehicles running around the airfield so they refused. He then demanded a "command golf cart" from the EAA so that he could be driven around the air show and not have to do any walking.
The EAA had previously asked CAP not to sing Jodie's when marching to the work stations. HWSRN's good friend who was in command that year ordered the TAC's and flights to ignore what the EAA said and "sing loud and proud".
On one of the last days HWSRN called the EAA PAO HQ and asked that they send a crew to a "special ceremony". The EAA agreed thinking it was going to be NBB's graduation ceremony. The EAA sent a full camera and newspaper crew to the compound. When they arrived, they found half of the 12 flights in civilian cloths playing volleyball, the other half was finishing up the last shifts of the day at the work stations. They set up the cameras and had the newspaper writer stay anyway thinking the other half of the flight would graduate. Instead, they witnessed a promotion ceremony for HWSRN's good friend from Captain to Major. HWSRN said the promotion was a "field promotion" for gallantry and hard work in organizing "this whole airshow". The EAA was livid. They stormed off the compound and the president of the EAA showed up to have a closed door meeting with the NBB staff.
I feel it is necessary to question the validity of this account based on my personal experience. I apologize if this comes across as an ad hominem attack upon you, as I assure you that that is not my intent. I was present in 2006 as a Cadet, and while that role severely limited my scope of the activity as a whole, I did not witness any of what you described. NBB CC was not, as you say, a Captain later promoted to Major; but was in fact Col. Austyn Granville, former NERCC. We were not told to "sing loud and proud" but rather that we were not to sing cadence at all per EAA's request.
*Edited for grammar
I was on staff. Col. Granville was originally slotted as director. He was replaced by captain/major Shannon Juhl, but cadets where never informed, and neither was NHQ. HWSRN replaced 3 other staff positions at will during the activity. This is also the time that HWSRN showed up in a beret with a "maj com" badge in place of the St. Albans pin. Near the end no one knew who was in charge of anything. 2006 and the escapades that happened forced CAP to switch NBB to a IC command style system. Now each area of NBB (like logistics, TACs, Cooks, ES, Admin, PAO) all have "section chiefs" that are appointed in writing to NHQ by the director and names are provided to the EAA and FAA so they know who to talk and go to in case they need something.
The CQ log at the gate records (to this day) that HWSRN and Shannon Juhl left the compound every night together and Ms. Juhl would reappear at about 4am on most days. The situation got worse as the days went on and more than one staff member requested to leave and go home. One staff member did in fact leave 4 days early and filed an IG complaint against HWSRN and Shannon Juhl. About 6 months later that member resigned from CAP after the IG complaint when no where.
Not to sound rude to you, but every effort was made to keep the cadets away from the situation and to keep them motivated and happy with the activity. Nothing is worse than very low cadet moral at an all volunteer activity.
As to the singing, my flight was one of the flights told to ignore EAA orders and go ahead and sing. Unfortunate but all of this is true.
I did not tell this story to stir up the past, its over and done and none of the major players are even in CAP anymore. I told this story so that those members of this board who think that the EAA should sing our praises could see that CAP has not helped ourselves with an already limited PAO opportunity.
My apologies; again, it was not my intention to attack you or your impression of what happened. I felt it was appropriate to question what you said based on my experience. However it's clear that your involvement was significantly more, well, involved than my own. To be honest, the Cadets guessed that there was something up. If nothing else we were frustrated by the dramatics encouraged by HWSRN, specifically our Beret awarding ceremony that was held in the middle of the night.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 13, 2012, 08:47:19 PMI did not tell this story to stir up the past, its over and done and none of the major players are even in CAP anymore. I told this story so that those members of this board who think that the EAA should sing our praises could see that CAP has not helped ourselves with an already limited PAO opportunity.
The unpleasantness aside, I think this pretty much sums up the external view of NBB as well - it's a big activity that CAP has a typically small(ish) role in - arguably that role is "important", but it is likely simply important that
someone does it, not that
CAP does it. It would appear that our precense at Airventure is far more important to
us, than to the EAA.
Nothing wrong with that, either, but that doesn't raise us to the "partner status" we
contend internally. We're much more prominently featured, and in some cases are the lead agency, in more local shows than we appear to be at Airventure. That contention works against us, too, since there are plenty of current and former members of CAP in the EAA, and we all know how much
former members love to gripe about CAP, especially in situations like this.The situation has evolved, and like many similar activities, the actions of disinterested third parties makes life even harder to stay on a straight track. I spent ten years heading off people trying to "help" me as an encampment commander, so I get that.
To the GA community, it's Superbowl week, we get that, too, and considering the large number of members who are personally invested in GA, as well as CAP's role in GA-SAR, not to mention owning the largest private fleet of single-engine aircraft in the US, we belong there with a strong, national presence.
But at the end of the day, it's an airshow, a really big one, but it's an airshow. Our regulations and policies don't allow members at Airventure to
do anything that isn't done at hundreds of other similar events across the country every year, and in many cases local squadrons provide more
overall support to smaller, similar activities over the course of a calendar year. Airventure is an exercise in scale, not elite.
And that's the issue when we have to deal with attitude and "special" back at the home squadron.
For a lot of members, cadets especially, Airventure becomes their "thing". Many will experience their first independent week of "sleep-away from mom"
in a paramilitary setting, and that is bound to set some tones when they get back, just the same as it does when cadets go to encampments, other NCSA's, or even missions and ES training. It is the activity and the experience which sets them apart, not the hat, but we've allowed it to become about the hat.
Incentives are fine, participants already get coins, patches, ribbons, and badges, don't they? But when you use a symbol which means something else to a lot of other people, especially in the testosterone-charged universe of a paramilitary organization, that's where your problems start, then they get worse when comparisons are drawn between the "A-Crowd" and the "Us-Crowd". That doesn't negate the value of the activity for what it is, but it causes the rise in rehtoric from both sides.
The A-Crowd in this case are those in the military that actually earned a beret in the way it is meant to be earned (which isn't universally loved there, either).The spice on top is adolescents who (already) "know everything" and are looking for any way to move to the head of any line they can, plus adults who, for some reason, act like adolescents, coupled with ambiguous guidance from national, and we are where we are. It's my personal experience, echoed by others here and elsewhere, that members inclined to wear the beret to non-NBB activities are overly "interested" in letting everyone around them "know" how much they "know", and are disinclined to accept advice or criticism. This despite the fact that they were "telling" people with years
of real-world experience in actual CAP missions outside the controlled environment of an airshow.
Previous to the 2006 Great Ambiguity
®, we still had to deal with the attitudes and occasional insubordination, but the hats, at least, stayed home. Participants were able to show off their patches, coins, ribbons, often a new GT badge, but at least they weren't inclined to wreck photos, or cause other uniform-related disruptions.
The solution to this is simple, straightforward, and inexplicably absent.
Reverse the Great Ambiguity
®", add language and other training regarding ones "place in the universe" to the NBB curriculum, and
move our relationship away from the typical "we're desperate to help" CAP posture.
"Great Ambiguity®" is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium. All Rights Reserved.
Let eClipseco service all of your rhetoric and propaganda needs!
You guys keep going down that same stupid road.
I have never been to NBB....so I got no dog in this fight....but every time you start saying "why do you deserve a beret" you are going to lose your argument.
The me say some quick things.
a) The real military does not really "earn" their beret. Come on....let's be honest....USAF cops are a default career field (my apologies to all the SF guys out there, I know you work hard and spend a lot of time outside the wire). They no more deserve a beret then anyone else.
b) The Army gives everyone berets.
c) Even Airborn and Rangers are not really that hard to get through....yes they hard and not everyone can do it....but so are some of the INTEL SCHOOLs and other technical schools.
What ever NBB gives out, does not limit a commander from telling said cadet or senior member to not wear it.
It's that simple.
"Cadet JustbackfromNBB nice beret, hope you had a good time...you will be wearing your squadron cap next week."
"But major they said......"
"My squadron, my rules......take it off".
Anyone cop me any attittude gets handled the same. This goes for NBB, HGA, PJOC, HMRS, and encampment (which I have the most problems).
So.....sorry you had some bad experinces with NBB graduates, Sorry that you had some bad experinces at NBB. Let's not make an us vs them argument over something thats all of 10 minutes to fix.
I am actually a multi NBB attendee (well a lot more than multi but... ) who is in favor of dropping the beret and changing the name of the activity to something like EAA Airventure support (or something along those lines). To be honest, I don't even know where my beret is.
Eclipse, I have a question for you and I am not trying to be rude at all, I am just wondering.
"Add language and other training regarding ones "place in the universe" to the NBB curriculum"
What do you mean by this? The training is GTM, UDF, FLM for the cadets and GTL, UDF, FLS for the senior's and TACs. So, I guess I am not sure what you mean by this. Beret is a mission, it's not like HAWK where it is all training; we have an AF mission number for the 2nd week of the activity.
Quote from: NCRblues on February 14, 2012, 12:20:43 AMEclipse, I have a question for you and I am not trying to be rude at all, I am just wondering.
"Add language and other training regarding ones "place in the universe" to the NBB curriculum"
In-briefs, daily briefs, small-squad meetings, and daily AARs, not to mention all the informal discussions and camp discussions that occur at these sorts of activities. Those and any manuals or OI's given to the participants, senior and cadet, should stress the image issues and historical perception problems with an eye towards stressing that it is about the experience and not the hat. Perhaps an after-activity message to all hands reminding them of their responsibilities to represent the activity with respect to their commanders and fellow members with an eye towards building participation.
You might also disavow the beret for a while and / or consider only issuing them and allowing wear by participants with multiple years, say 3-5. That discourages the "once and doners" who are just in it for a lifetime pass to wear a hat, and would at least recognize those who truly contribute.
I would like i point out eclipse, we did have two or three briefings and history lessons with that particular lesson this past year (about the "place in the universe" thing).
Just saying.
-Rogovin
Quote from: Eclipse on February 14, 2012, 12:40:59 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 14, 2012, 12:20:43 AMEclipse, I have a question for you and I am not trying to be rude at all, I am just wondering.
"Add language and other training regarding ones "place in the universe" to the NBB curriculum"
In-briefs, daily briefs, small-squad meetings, and daily AARs, not to mention all the informal discussions and camp discussions that occur at these sorts of activities. Those and any manuals or OI's given to the participants, senior and cadet, should stress the image issues and historical perception problems with an eye towards stressing that it is about the experience and not the hat. Perhaps an after-activity message to all hands reminding them of their responsibilities to represent the activity with respect to their commanders and fellow members with an eye towards building participation.
You might also disavow the beret for a while and / or consider only issuing them and allowing wear by participants with multiple years, say 3-5. That discourages the "once and doners" who are just in it for a lifetime pass to wear a hat, and would at least recognize those who truly contribute.
You know.....I don't think harping on the historical image issues is really any help. Back in the 80's the BSA waterfront staff was preached to day and night about "back in the day the waterfront did this and that and the othere..." We new waterfront staff people all resented the attitude that we would be like those old guys from way back when.
IF.....and I say this for the sake of argument....IF there is an attitude problem with NBB/HM/HGA graduates....you address that to the staff and have them make the changes. Break the cycle at the source.
But......and let's be clear on this......the beret is a stupid hat.....and taking away the hat does nothing with correcting bad attitudes and those practices that form them. What it does is make those issues worse...because now the NBB staff would ramp up the US vs THEM attitudes and that will get transfered to the NBB attendees.
Like I said before.
You as a commander can ban the wear of the beret at your unit if you so feel.
You as a commander/leader can fix attitude problems at your level.
Unless you are a Group or higher commander don't worry about what is going on in other units....focus on your own. If members of other units cause problems in your unit....use the chain to correct them.
If we follow these simple ideas....90% of our uniform issues will be taken care of.
Can I stir the pot one more time?
I think we can get this going for a few more pages. Heck! Might even hold the Captalk record for longest discussion!
Quote from: cpyahoo on February 14, 2012, 07:40:21 PM
Can I stir the pot one more time?
I think we can get this going for a few more pages. Heck! Might even hold the Captalk record for longest discussion!
No.
*snapping my fingers*
Aaaawwww, dang!
Quote from: cpyahoo on February 14, 2012, 07:40:21 PM
Can I stir the pot one more time?
I think we can get this going for a few more pages. Heck! Might even hold the Captalk record for longest discussion!
No. And unless you can get another 50 pages, no new record.
Tick-tock-tick-tock where's ole Mike with his big padlock?
U.S. Code, Title 10: Thou shalt not wear thy blue beanie without the blessing of thy unit commander. The cadet you met on the ride home after graduation may authorize its wear under certain circumstances none of which coincide with reality. Violation of this law is punishable by 20-30 licks about the head and shoulders with a wet squirrel.
Okay, it's not really U.S. Code but I figured that by now someone would have pulled out some obscure part of the code to prove a point that has no relation to the argument.
PYLON! MIKE! WHATEVAH? ;D
Oh c'mon leave it unlocked so someone can necro it in 1-2 years
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 15, 2012, 02:26:42 AM
Oh c'mon leave it unlocked so someone can necro it in 1-2 years
Back in your box!
Calling in a Mike Strike...
When I was a cadet in SC in the early 90s, our Wing CC mandated that nobody was allowed to wear anything from Hawk Mountain or NBB. I point blank asked him why during a meeting and he pretty much stated the same thing Eclipse did about the "us" vs. "them" mentality that became prevalent when those participants came back to the wing and home squadrons.
Quote from: 68w10 on February 11, 2012, 05:52:59 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 11, 2012, 01:03:19 PM
I have long been a proponent of one set of standardized badges and insignia to be worn by the graduates of NBB, Hawk Mountain and what ever else is out there. It levels the playing field and gives you the recognition you deserve.
I've never heard that idea, how exactly would this work?
You've got to be kidding. We have a national board that approves uniform issues and a committee studying the uniforms. The simple process is that someone makes a recommendation and it goes before the board to be considered, rejected or approved. What is so difficult with that. A while ago, one of you had this whole assortment of proposed ES badges (that I thought were really cool, by the way), but that stuff never gets beyond a wing comamnder. Why? It might just become the right incentive for certain members to participate in missions.
If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that someone was protecting this hat/head gear because of the impact it may have on attendance at the activity.
Certainly a beret is a distinctive type of headgear. However, you don't award berets for attending other types of national activiites. Why should NBB be any different? Ask this question, if the beret wasn't awarded would it have a bearing on who attended the activity. There's already a patch and a ribbon...or other ribbons...just like other national activities. Why is NBB so different?
We send kids to Space Camp and Aviation Challenge; two far more intensive activities than NBB. Yet, those kids or adults aren't allowed to wear the wings they earn on their uniforms. There also isn't an us vs them type of mentality amongst those graduates, so why is NBB and Hawk Mountain so special?
Would you award a beret to a cadet or senior member who supports a public airshow at a military base? We also send cadets to PJ and SP/SF orientations. I don't see those kids coming home with berets...
The solution is to give a beret to everyone who attends a national activity. That's fair. Otherwise, I don't really see a point in awarding it.
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 15, 2012, 12:45:06 PM
It might just become the right incentive for certain members to participate in missions.
Not really. Those who want the badge will do the bare minimum to get it then never answer the phone again. Then you've tricked yourself into thinking you have more resources than you do and it all goes downhill from there.
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 15, 2012, 12:45:06 PM
Quote from: 68w10 on February 11, 2012, 05:52:59 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on February 11, 2012, 01:03:19 PM
I have long been a proponent of one set of standardized badges and insignia to be worn by the graduates of NBB, Hawk Mountain and what ever else is out there. It levels the playing field and gives you the recognition you deserve.
I've never heard that idea, how exactly would this work?
You've got to be kidding. We have a national board that approves uniform issues and a committee studying the uniforms. The simple process is that someone makes a recommendation and it goes before the board to be considered, rejected or approved. What is so difficult with that. A while ago, one of you had this whole assortment of proposed ES badges (that I thought were really cool, by the way), but that stuff never gets beyond a wing comamnder. Why? It might just become the right incentive for certain members to participate in missions.
If I didn't know any better, I'd swear that someone was protecting this hat/head gear because of the impact it may have on attendance at the activity.
Certainly a beret is a distinctive type of headgear. However, you don't award berets for attending other types of national activiites. Why should NBB be any different? Ask this question, if the beret wasn't awarded would it have a bearing on who attended the activity. There's already a patch and a ribbon...or other ribbons...just like other national activities. Why is NBB so different?
We send kids to Space Camp and Aviation Challenge; two far more intensive activities than NBB. Yet, those kids or adults aren't allowed to wear the wings they earn on their uniforms. There also isn't an us vs them type of mentality amongst those graduates, so why is NBB and Hawk Mountain so special?
Would you award a beret to a cadet or senior member who supports a public airshow at a military base? We also send cadets to PJ and SP/SF orientations. I don't see those kids coming home with berets...
The solution is to give a beret to everyone who attends a national activity. That's fair. Otherwise, I don't really see a point in awarding it.
I'm not kidding, I'm genuinely curious as to what you're talking about and would like to know more. Before you respond I'd appreciate if you take a step back and read what I posted and what I'm writing here so that we can avoid another unnecessary misunderstanding.
I'm asking about what the badges would look like/where they would go/for what activities would they be awarded. Surprisingly enough I do have a fairly good grasp on how changes to uniforms are proposed. I'm not saying that what you're suggesting is absurd because it precludes me from wearing my fuzzy french hat, I'm asking you to talk about the program of which you say you are a proponent.
Quote from: Salty on February 15, 2012, 06:51:36 AM
When I was a cadet in SC in the early 90s, our Wing CC mandated that nobody was allowed to wear anything from Hawk Mountain or NBB. I point blank asked him why during a meeting and he pretty much stated the same thing Eclipse did about the "us" vs. "them" mentality that became prevalent when those participants came back to the wing and home squadrons.
I have to say I am in sympathy with this Colonel in SC.
The "elitist" mentality has NO place in CAP, whether it's HM, NBB or flying club senior squadrons.
Really?
So anyone can wear General Stars?
Anyone can ignore the orders of those appointed over you?
CAP if full of "elitist" mentalities...Let's be careful about what terminology we use.
^^Sir, I didn't mean that and I think you know that.
The rank structure is something we have, and I don't consider a General any more "elitist" than an Airman Basic...the General just took a different path of service, one that led to officer rank and leadership. And I certainly don't advocate disobeying orders.
What I meant was that in an organisation like CAP, once you have people considering themselves a semi-separate "brotherhood," whether it be NBB or pilots within a flying club senior squadron, you divide that organisation into "betters" and "lessers."
Quote from: CyBorg on February 16, 2012, 03:29:02 PMWhat I meant was that in an organisation like CAP, once you have people considering themselves a semi-separate "brotherhood," whether it be NBB or pilots within a flying club senior squadron, you divide that organisation into "betters" and "lessers."
Yep, or at least "us" and "them", which doesn't work in a volunteer paradigm.
Us and Them - Pink Floyd (Studio Version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcG47CpsU6c#)
Quote from: CyBorg on February 16, 2012, 03:29:02 PM
^^Sir, I didn't mean that and I think you know that.
The rank structure is something we have, and I don't consider a General any more "elitist" than an Airman Basic...the General just took a different path of service, one that led to officer rank and leadership. And I certainly don't advocate disobeying orders.
What I meant was that in an organisation like CAP, once you have people considering themselves a semi-separate "brotherhood," whether it be NBB or pilots within a flying club senior squadron, you divide that organisation into "betters" and "lessers."
Like Lt Cols vs Majors?
But really I do understand what you are getting at and yes these cliques can cause problems. But I think you are blowing the "problem" out of porpotion.
We use the the tool of special insigina as a tool to develope the esprit de corps of a unit.
By definition that is "elitist".
So to attack the NBB brotherhood and their bling on the basis of elitism....then you need to atttack the aircrew brotherhood and their elitism and the Lt Col brotherhood and their elitism.
What you really are saying is that there is elitism that you like and agree with and there is elitism that you don't like and don't agree with.
Okay.....I'll buy that.
I can take care of any elitist attitudes that come out of NBB with out taking away their beret.
Attacking their beret is NOT the way to go....because you INCREASE the amount of antagonism between US and THEM.
So, IMHO, IF you see a problem with this "elitism" then we need to communicate that up the chain to the NBB guys and have them make changes to their program. If they don't, then as a commander simply stop letting your guys go...i.e. don't sign their CAPF31.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 16, 2012, 04:46:41 PMWe use the the tool of special insigina as a tool to develope the esprit de corps of a unit.
Where? Insignia are supposed to recognize accomplishment in a standardized way. Respect for the experience of a top-heavy SAR ribbon is not the
same as considering that person "elite". Any insignia that engenders "elitism" is doing it wrong.
History and experience show that the more "elite" a person actually is, the less inclined they are to worry that anyone else knows about it.
Ever notice that the more accomplished people become in CAP, the shorter their email signatures get?
Sorry.....BS.
The USAF uses the special hats and insignia to develope esprit de corps in their SF, PJ, Airborn Weather, Military Training Instructors, Technical Training Instructors, recruiters, military aids, SAF aids, WH aids, special units/asisgnements, JTACS.
When push comes to shove those are just AFSCs and just jobs.....why do any of them "deserve" a special hat or insignia?
In CAP we use cords for the CAC, we use cords for Honor Guard, Color Guards.....all elite ogranisaitons with in our larger organisation. We use them as an incentive and for them to build unity and Esprit De Corps.
I also say BS on "history and experince" issue.
I point out the issue the Army went through when they gave everyone berets....the Rangers has a fecal matter fit until they got their own distinctive beret.
If you go to the PJ's or the Seals or Special Forces and suggest that you take away their berets and/or tirdents....you can rest assured that they will come unglued.
Pointing to the failures within and outside our organization doesn't make your argument, and what another organization does, or doesn't do, is irrelevant to CAP, especially when you consider the military vs. non-military paradigm.
The cords you mention are another source of undeserved elitism within CAP, and the cause of similar issues to the beret.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2012, 05:56:47 PM
Pointing to the failures within and outside our organization doesn't make your argument, and what another organization does, or doesn't do, is irrelevant to CAP, especially when you consider the military vs. non-military paradigm.
The cords you mention are another source of undeserved elitism within CAP, and the cause of similar issues to the beret.
Well since most of them are controlled at the local level......where is the problem?
My Color Guard gets out of hand...I disband it/correct it and move on.
My point is and always has been.....don't take away the tools that work, just because they are abused elsewhere.
A carpenter is mis using his claw hammer.....you fire or retrain him....you don't ban hammers.
I also take issue with your use of the term "undeserved elitism".
What makes you an expert on what is deserved or undeserved?
Assuming that squadrons are properly getting authorisation for special insigia/hats/cords let the squadrons manage it.
If the practices of another squadron are interfering with the operations of you squadron use your chain of command to fix it.
I'm trying to figure out where I said or advocated that blue berets should be banned. ???
In fact, I have proposed a blue-grey one as a dis*inc*ive optional headdress for the G/W combo.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 16, 2012, 06:22:53 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2012, 05:56:47 PM
Pointing to the failures within and outside our organization doesn't make your argument, and what another organization does, or doesn't do, is irrelevant to CAP, especially when you consider the military vs. non-military paradigm.
The cords you mention are another source of undeserved elitism within CAP, and the cause of similar issues to the beret.
Well since most of them are controlled at the local level......where is the problem?
My Color Guard gets out of hand...I disband it/correct it and move on.
For some reason you ignore that much of this issue happens at a scope greater than the units. Members, especially cadets, for the most part will respect their unit CC's and staff, if for no other reason than familiarity, and many will try to "See what I can get away with..." at a SARex, training, encampments, etc. As a commander, at your local squadron you can pretty much do anything you want, which is where many of the problems start - either a unit commander doing whatever he wants, or not being involved enough to makes things stop. Then those behaviors and issues manifest themselves at activities which have a greater scope than the local units. I, for one, strongly believe that the unit is literally the "heart of CAP", however the evolution of the program has forced the reality that much of the things people join for occur outside the home units.
You often cite "My commander said it was OK." as an excuse for not knowing the regs or other mistakes members make, but more often than not, it's the excuse members use to do something they basically understand is a "no". Pursuing it "with the chain" later doesn't necessarily fix the issues "today",
nor does it even guarantee that a unit CC will fix the issue.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 16, 2012, 06:22:53 PMI also take issue with your use of the term "undeserved elitism".
What makes you an expert on what is deserved or undeserved?
Expert? I didn't realize we need to be experts now to express an opinion, however in that regards I'd present my 10+ years of experience in dealing with this exact issue.
Members who pursue the outward accrotremonts as the mission instead of the reward - planning activities where the first discussion is the hat / patch / cord, or "what I can get". Members who twist every nuance of 39-3 to try and find a way of justifying this or that ribbon before they've actually done anything in CAP.
And in the end, in many cases, it defeats the very purpose we are trying to foster - either because the inevitable comparisions are made between CAP service and military service (which helps neither side of the discussion), or because people are "rewarded" for things which aren't really all that "special", and then act like they are special.
We're not doing anyone a service, especially cadets, when we teach them that the reward is the point of the service, especially in a volulnteer paradigm.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2012, 07:22:46 PMWe're not doing anyone a service, especially cadets, when we teach them that the reward is the point of the service, especially in a volulnteer paradigm.
:clap: +1000 I'm dealing with this very issue on two different fronts at the wing level right now.
Mike
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2012, 07:22:46 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 16, 2012, 06:22:53 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2012, 05:56:47 PM
Pointing to the failures within and outside our organization doesn't make your argument, and what another organization does, or doesn't do, is irrelevant to CAP, especially when you consider the military vs. non-military paradigm.
The cords you mention are another source of undeserved elitism within CAP, and the cause of similar issues to the beret.
Well since most of them are controlled at the local level......where is the problem?
My Color Guard gets out of hand...I disband it/correct it and move on.
For some reason you ignore that much of this issue happens at a scope greater than the units. Members, especially cadets, for the most part will respect their unit CC's and staff, if for no other reason than familiarity, and many will try to "See what I can get away with..." at a SARex, training, encampments, etc. As a commander, at your local squadron you can pretty much do anything you want, which is where many of the problems start - either a unit commander doing whatever he wants, or not being involved enough to makes things stop. Then those behaviors and issues manifest themselves at activities which have a greater scope than the local units. I, for one, strongly believe that the unit is literally the "heart of CAP", however the evolution of the program has forced the reality that much of the things people join for occur outside the home units.
You often cite "My commander said it was OK." as an excuse for not knowing the regs or other mistakes members make, but more often than not, it's the excuse members use to do something they basically understand is a "no". Pursuing it "with the chain" later doesn't necessarily fix the issues "today",
nor does it even guarantee that a unit CC will fix the issue.
While I agree 100% with the second portion of your post, I have to question this. Surely each of the activities you're describing (encampments, SAREXs, etc) have someone in charge. At some point, that someone sent out a communication (email, tweet, smoke signal, whatever) listing information pertinent to the activity. This could and often does include the UOD. All the Commander/IC/Grand Poobah needs to do is say "No Berets will be worn at this activity" in that initial communication. If an individual still shows up wearing the wrong hat, there's no excuse of "My Commander said x". At that point the responsibility for that individual's actions fall upon the individual.
Quote from: 68w10 on February 16, 2012, 09:31:22 PMWhile I agree 100% with the second portion of your post, I have to question this. Surely each of the activities you're describing (encampments, SAREXs, etc) have someone in charge. At some point, that someone sent out a communication (email, tweet, smoke signal, whatever) listing information pertinent to the activity. This could and often does include the UOD. All the Commander/IC/Grand Poobah needs to do is say "No Berets will be worn at this activity" in that initial communication. If an individual still shows up wearing the wrong hat, there's no excuse of "My Commander said x". At that point the responsibility for that individual's actions fall upon the individual.
Yes they did. Yes, it is. Didn't change anything about what I said.
Yes...the volunteer pardigm.....
So....we remove all rewards because some don't learn the ideal that the reward is the service.
So......why not advocate removing all rank and ribbons?
Becuase surely no one who truely understands the volunteer pardigm would need any of those.
Of course....those of us who understand people know with out some sort of reward system then we will have no volunteers.
I don't care why someone does the mission. So long as they do it. If they only do it once (Got the T-shirt, I'm out of here), I don't care. That is one of the facts of life when dealing with volunteers.
So....looking just at NBB.......if the beret is the thing that is getting members to PAY for the privelage of working their butts off for two weeks......taking that away jepordizes the mission of NBB.
I don't care about the "lesson" being taught....that is the reward is the reason to do something.....I care about the mission getting done.
And again.....cadets or senior members who can't follow clear direction are a leadership problem. And those problems did not come from spending two week in Wisconsin.
As 68W10 said.....if you are a wing/group director of something (encampment, SAREX, etc) you are certainly capable of defining and enforcing the UOD. You know though....I don't really see a whole lot of that. What I usually see here on CT is the Bling haters seeing someone outside of their normal zone of influence doing something "wrong" and getting attacked for it.
Little Johnny is just doing what he is told and following how he was trained. Granted I agree with you that some squadorns are poorly trained and pass on that poor training to their members. The correction for that, of course is to fire or retrain the squadron leaders....and that is Wing's/Group's job.
Once again....taking away the tool is not the way to correct misuse of that tool.
To Cyborg.....I apologise if I misinterpeted your inputs.
Oh man,
Ok, let me just say this and then I will bow out.
As a staff member of NBB for years, I can guarantee that every year, all cadet and SM staff are told to follow the local commanders orders. Several times they are informed that it is up to the local commander/wing commander about the wear of the beret. They are told again and again. They are also given a list of the sorties they participated on and the amount of finds they received and the ES quals they completed.
IF they go home to you all, and say that WE (meaning NBB staff) told them it was ok to wear the beret whenever/where ever than your cadet is lying to you.
If they claim they did not get that list, they are lying. The Director, assistant director, admin chief, chief tac and flight tac all check to make sure they have that paper.
If they come home and say they ANYTHING other than "they told us to follow local command" than they are lying to you. Even former national commanders where present when one (one of many) of these briefings was going on. NBB staff makes it clear that the beret is a privilege and not a right.
After they walk off our compound, they no longer fall under our chain of command, and they are back on your dime. Enforce the rules. If you don't like berets, than as a commander do not allow them to wear it. Simple. We (nbb staff) do everything we can to make sure the cadets do not return home with an "elitist" attitude". Some of them do, but that also applies to every NCSA and every encampment since CAP has started.
Once again, NBB staff makes sure the cadets know to follow local command.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 16, 2012, 09:47:03 PM
Quote from: 68w10 on February 16, 2012, 09:31:22 PMWhile I agree 100% with the second portion of your post, I have to question this. Surely each of the activities you're describing (encampments, SAREXs, etc) have someone in charge. At some point, that someone sent out a communication (email, tweet, smoke signal, whatever) listing information pertinent to the activity. This could and often does include the UOD. All the Commander/IC/Grand Poobah needs to do is say "No Berets will be worn at this activity" in that initial communication. If an individual still shows up wearing the wrong hat, there's no excuse of "My Commander said x". At that point the responsibility for that individual's actions fall upon the individual.
Yes they did. Yes, it is. Didn't change anything about what I said.
It would seem to me that it does. You're saying that an individual is more likely to try to "get away with" something at a non-unit activity. Odds are that won't be a problem if it's made abundantly clear that what they may want to "get away with" won't fly. Those individuals that still try to get away with wearing a Beret to a SAREX are few and far between, and not giving berets to first-time NBB attendees is not the answer to that problem.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 16, 2012, 09:57:08 PM
So....we remove all rewards because some don't learn the ideal that the reward is the service.
No, but when problems are identified, you adjust the reward system accordingly.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 16, 2012, 09:57:08 PM
So......why not advocate removing all rank and ribbons?
I like my trinkets as much as the next guy, but I believe I have, in fact advocated this exact thing on a number of occasions. when I first joined
I was, like many, just as attracted by the shiny stuff as any new guy, but as I've grown in experience, I see that the ribbons and grade, especially
the way CAP has implemented them, can be as much of an impediment to our real missions as an advantage.
Quote from: 68w10 on February 16, 2012, 10:06:09 PMYou're saying that an individual is more likely to try to "get away with" something at a non-unit activity.
That's exactly what I am saying, and I wish I could say it only applied to cadets, but I've had to deal with seniors on this kind of stuff as well. It's not just berets - our members are infinitely creative when packing their gear - but absent 2 ambiguous, 6 year old sentences, these were not conversations we even needed to consider before. One could also question why this was done at all. Was NBB starving for people before the change? No.
Have they been flooded with 3x's the applications then they need because of the change? No. So what's the real point here?
Unlike Lordmonar above, I do care
why people show up to activities, especially cadets. We're supposed to be teaching and emulating "service before self", not "Service when I get something cool and then can show off to everyone else".
Eclipse.....it is not SERVICE BEFORE SELF.....it is VOLUTEER SERVICE. :(
Why we are here is not important (for the most part). That you are here, that you follow the regulations, goals and core values are important. That you follow through with what you say you are going to do.
As leaders in a volunteer organsiation we need to find, train and keep good people who give of themselve for their community, state and nation. It is our job to find out what makes them ping and provide that for them. For some it is the sense of a job well done, for some it is the nifty blue uniforms, for some it is the free flying, for some it is the salutes, berets, cords and other "useless" doo-dads.
It is our job to use all the tools properly to find, train and keep good people.
If someone's reasons for getting into CAP become a problem (say a salute troll) then you retrain or fire him.
You yourself said that initially you were attracted by the bling....but you grew out of it! Congradulations they system works.
Granted not everyone learns that lesson.
But you have not learned the underlying lesson of how to use the tools. You assume that because you are now as State A....everyone needs to be at State A.....even though it takes time to grow there.
You propose to take away one of the tools to get people to State A while at the same time getting the mission done.
The active military has learned this trick long ago...and they have and understand the pit falls that come with it.
I have no doubt that cadets and seniors will try to game the system. But let's be honest. What is the ratio betweent he players and the good guys?
Thank you Ralph Lauren! You've just done more to dispel the mythos of the beret then anything we could ever say here.
(http://www.gadailynews.com/files.php?file=assets-2012/article_2171526_140152E3000005DC_917_636x603_968323830.jpg)
(http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/articles/sports/five-ring_circus/120711_FRC_OlympicBeretsEX.jpg.CROP.article250-medium.jpg)
(http://thepreppyprincess.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/ralph-lauren-olympic-uniforms-opening-ceremony-team-usa-solo-shot-flag1.jpg?w=500)
I can see the shooters from USAMU that are going to the games reaction...
"They want us to wear THAT!!? We would look like one of those cheesy OLD NAVY commercials! We're the ARMY." :'(
And the berets are made in China
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"
Quote from: BillB on July 14, 2012, 02:18:18 AM
And the berets are made in China
The whole friggin' "uniform" is made in China!
Quote from: Eclipse on July 14, 2012, 01:26:19 AM
Thank you Ralph Lauren! You've just done more to dispel the mythos of the beret then anything we could ever say here.
LOL. That is too funny. And those uniforms are too freakin' ugly. Not to mention the Ralph Lauren logo on the front. That is ridiculous. Is this "Team Ralph"?
Those photos look like something out of Starship Troopers.
Quote from: mikebank on July 14, 2012, 06:30:38 PM
Those photos look like something out of Starship Troopers.
Anyone reporting for a drop dressed like that would be thrown out an airlock.
What tickles me is that at a wing staff meeting, they spent two hours talking about my beret in a picture.
-SERIOUSLY???-
What with funding, membership, and everything else going on, wing spent two hours debating my HAT???
Quote from: cpyahoo on October 19, 2012, 02:27:52 PMWhat with funding, membership, and everything else going on, wing spent two hours debating my HAT???
Which pretty much encapsulates the issue - uniforms are supposed to be standard identifiers, not a distraction.
The beret is an unnecessary distraction, generally because of the wearer and not the hat itself (present company exempted, of course).
Quote from: cpyahoo on October 19, 2012, 02:27:52 PM
What tickles me is that at a wing staff meeting, they spent two hours talking about my beret in a picture.
-SERIOUSLY???-
What with funding, membership, and everything else going on, wing spent two hours debating my HAT???
Not in the last year they haven't...that's as long as I've been attending TNWG staff meetings, and I'll tell you, other than the Wing/CC saying "If you want to wear the AF Uniform, be [darn]ed sure you do it right, end of discussion." I don't recall any discussions of uniforms.
Quote from: flyboy1 on November 19, 2010, 11:25:56 AM
Quote from: Dad2-4 on November 19, 2010, 07:56:52 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on November 19, 2010, 04:07:15 AM
The scary part is, some SMs are more adamant about the Beret than cadets...
I earned a blue beret while on active duty USAF, and still can't wear it in CAP. NBB attendees need to get over this topic. (No offense to any one individual)
Don't start that. You know as well as I do that your blue beret is a duty uniform item, that is worn, just like your shield, while you are performing your duties. That's the AF Reg. I have a challenge coin to denote my beret flash. I carry it all the time. I still wear my qualification badge proudly. The beret sits, folded, with my medals in a box. It isn't appropriate to wear it with a CAP uniform, because that would infer that you are performing those same duties in CAP.
Does that mean you can wear it while directing traffic at some air show? :angel: Just joking, thought I'd say it before someone else.
Quote from: Grumpy on October 19, 2012, 04:17:09 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on November 19, 2010, 11:25:56 AM
Quote from: Dad2-4 on November 19, 2010, 07:56:52 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on November 19, 2010, 04:07:15 AM
The scary part is, some SMs are more adamant about the Beret than cadets...
I earned a blue beret while on active duty USAF, and still can't wear it in CAP. NBB attendees need to get over this topic. (No offense to any one individual)
Don't start that. You know as well as I do that your blue beret is a duty uniform item, that is worn, just like your shield, while you are performing your duties. That's the AF Reg. I have a challenge coin to denote my beret flash. I carry it all the time. I still wear my qualification badge proudly. The beret sits, folded, with my medals in a box. It isn't appropriate to wear it with a CAP uniform, because that would infer that you are performing those same duties in CAP.
Does that mean you can wear it while directing traffic at some air show? :angel: Just joking, thought I'd say it before someone else.
Dude...that post was two years old!
Quote from: lordmonar on October 19, 2012, 08:16:59 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on October 19, 2012, 04:17:09 PM
Quote from: flyboy1 on November 19, 2010, 11:25:56 AM
Quote from: Dad2-4 on November 19, 2010, 07:56:52 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on November 19, 2010, 04:07:15 AM
The scary part is, some SMs are more adamant about the Beret than cadets...
I earned a blue beret while on active duty USAF, and still can't wear it in CAP. NBB attendees need to get over this topic. (No offense to any one individual)
Don't start that. You know as well as I do that your blue beret is a duty uniform item, that is worn, just like your shield, while you are performing your duties. That's the AF Reg. I have a challenge coin to denote my beret flash. I carry it all the time. I still wear my qualification badge proudly. The beret sits, folded, with my medals in a box. It isn't appropriate to wear it with a CAP uniform, because that would infer that you are performing those same duties in CAP.
Does that mean you can wear it while directing traffic at some air show? :angel: Just joking, thought I'd say it before someone else.
Dude...that post was two years old!
Well... in two more years someone else might have said it. better that he got to say it first. :)
😃😃
Grumpy's olde. That's the only excuse he needs. >:D
What will be done to the cadet who makes a false official statement (wearing items on uniform not earned is serious). Airmen should have their hands slapped, NCOs demoted, senior cadets, 2b'd.
Let's look for training moments and uphold moral and ethical standards.
Make CAP work and a proud organization to work in.
My 2-cents
D2
I had a cadet when I took over the DCC job in my unit in 2000 who absolutely REFUSED to wear his uniform properly, if at all. He went to NBB and got his beret and wore it everywhere, including meetings. I read the regs, found he was not in the right and told him so. He boldly told me to point it out to him, which I did, and he still refused to take the thing off, saying he was told by staff at NBB that he was authorized to wear it anytime. The regs, at the time, stated the beret would only be worn at NBB. This was one of many problems we had with him, and eventually his mother, who the CC fired for nepotism when she was DCC tried to bully her way through "for her son", tried to sue the CC and me for trying to ruin her child.
Anyway, this situation got way out of hand because no one wanted to try and work with him before I came along, and when I set my foot down, he rebelled in a major way. We eventually had no choice but to suspend him, and he never came back.
Cadets are all subject to our core values. Any cadet who makes false statements, falsifies records, etc. should be first counseled, and if that fails, suspended and/or 2b'd. Impressing on the cadet in question that the core values aren't just a bunch of words is a good start.
Frankly, it depends on the wing.
the FLWG issued a supplement that in part reads;
"Line 4, Added: As authorized by National Board amendment to CAPM 39-1 dated August 2006 and
National Headquarters Interim Change Letter dated 12 March 2012, the Blue Beret will be worn only by
members who have completed the National Blue Beret Encampment and have proper documentation to
support such attendance. The Blue Beret may be worn with either the green BDU's or blue utility uniform
but is not authorized with any combination of blue Air Force style service uniform. Wear of the Blue
Beret is PROHIBITED when on a military installations within Florida Wing. "
my cadets aren't happy, as we meet on a USAF Installation...
-YAWN- More debate on hats and patches. -SIGH-
::)
Did you have to come 8 days after the last post just to say that? Seems like you have more of an obsession with these threads than those who post in them.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 01, 2012, 08:18:54 PM
Did you have to come 8 days after the last post just to say that? Seems like you have more of an obsession with these threads than those who post in them.
Let's see if he starts in on polo's and g/w's as the official CAP uniform. Then, and only then, will we know...if he's radioman reincarnated!
It doesn't matter if you earned your b___ b____ at NBB or wherever.
If, back at your home unit, your squadron CC tells you not to wear it, you don't wear it!
These debates about the Blue Beret are as old as I can remember; I joined CAP as a cadet back in 1987. We had one cadet that wore a beret from NBB (i think they called something else back then) and others that wore berets that were locally approved. We never had problems with neither of them; the Blue Beret cadet went on to earn his Spaatz and later got a commission with the Navy and became a Naval Aviator.
Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. At one point NHQ decided they didn't want berets and they practically got rid of them. Then they brought them back. In recent years they went as far a approving them for use with the BDU outside of NBB. I hear issues about attitudes from those who attended NBB, which may be valid, but have nothing to do with a piece of headgear (those that think they're better than others would do so with or without the beret). Others complaint about how ugly it is; ok, don't wear it then. It's obvious (as have been discussed a million times on these forums) that activity commanders/directors can set what the uniform of the day is going to be. Period. Unit commanders can do the same.
But other than situations requiring a specific headgear, why does it matter that a cadet wears a beret that NHQ approves after they have completed NBB? In our squadron, we set a uniform of the day for every meeting as appropriate, but don't go out of our ways to ensure no one wears a uniform item that they're authorized to wear. I think it's silly that we spend so much effort arguing about Blue Berets. If it's such a problem, submit a uniform change through the appropriate channels. Otherwise, let's be professional and drop the drama. They've earned it (just as we've earned other insignias and uniform items), so they should be able to wear it within reason.
Rsalort-
You are skirting the issue.
The issue on this thread, is that the consensus is the Blue Beret, is not approved for wear at the squadron!
Quote from: RSalort on November 12, 2012, 08:30:58 PM
They've earned it (just as we've earned other insignias and uniform items), so they should be able to wear it within reason.
Can I wear my Maroon Beret? There's no doubt that I earned it.
Quote from: flyer333555 on November 12, 2012, 08:43:52 PM
Rsalort-
You are skirting the issue.
The issue on this thread, is that the consensus is the Blue Beret, is not approved for wear at the squadron!
According to the 39-1 ICL it is authorized
Quote from: flyer333555 on November 12, 2012, 08:43:52 PM
Rsalort-
You are skirting the issue.
The issue on this thread, is that the consensus is the Blue Beret, is not approved for wear at the squadron!
With all due respect, you are mistaken.
The original post ask the following:
QuoteAre you allowed to wear your blue beret after NBB? Let's say I was to go back to Utah and wear in with my BDU's at squadron meeting... is that allowed?
And the simple answer to that question is yes. And as an added clarification, unit commanders and/or activities directors can set a uniform of the day that does not include use of the beret for operational, safety and/or uniformity reasons. It's not a matter of consensus. The rules are pretty clear.
Quote from: RogueLeader on November 12, 2012, 08:45:13 PM
Quote from: RSalort on November 12, 2012, 08:30:58 PM
They've earned it (just as we've earned other insignias and uniform items), so they should be able to wear it within reason.
Can I wear my Maroon Beret? There's no doubt that I earned it.
So you decided to misquote me in order to get your point across. How original. You missed the part where NHQ approves the use of the blue beret with BDUs by those who successfully completed NBB. CAPM 39-1 also states that only blue berets are authorized. But of course, you already knew that. I also stated that they should be able to wear their berets within reason. If I was authorized to wear a CAP blue beret (which I'm not), I wouldn't expect to wear it to an encampment or other special activity where the uniform of the day clearly stated a different headgear.
RSalort, again, you are the one that is mistaken.
CAP regulations state they are not to be modified at the unit level.
39-1 does not authorize wear of the beret other than at Blue Beret.
Many people in CAP do not read the regulations, decide on their own there are holes on them or that they are outdated, and decide that they can issue changes.
Thus, we have commanders allowing wear of the beret, as an example, in New Jersey, Delaware, and Indiana, but not in Illinois, Maryland, New York. And the same for the NRA badge. Some Groups in Wing allow XYZ, other Groups do not.
And here we are, rehashing again something that should be so simple if everyone would read and follow the regulations as written.
39-1 says "you do not wear the beret," members should say "that is right, we wear the beret only for that activity."
No looking for "holes in the manuals."
End of discussion.
Flyer
Quote from: flyer333555 on November 12, 2012, 09:36:17 PM
RSalort, again, you are the one that is mistaken.
CAP regulations state they are not to be modified at the unit level.
39-1 does not authorize wear of the beret other than at Blue Beret.
Many people in CAP do not read the regulations, decide on their own there are holes on them or that they are outdated, and decide that they can issue changes.
Thus, we have commanders allowing wear of the beret, as an example, in New Jersey, Delaware, and Indiana, but not in Illinois, Maryland, New York. And the same for the NRA badge. Some Groups in Wing allow XYZ, other Groups do not.
And here we are, rehashing again something that should be so simple if everyone would read and follow the regulations as written.
39-1 says "you do not wear the beret," members should say "that is right, we wear the beret only for that activity."
No looking for "holes in the manuals."
End of discussion.
Flyer
Nope, you are wrong.. see item J on this recent ICL
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/2012_03_12_Uniform_Manual_EDA9CCE9FE03A.pdf (http://capmembers.com/media/cms/2012_03_12_Uniform_Manual_EDA9CCE9FE03A.pdf)
Quote from: NCRblues on November 12, 2012, 09:41:45 PM
Nope, you are wrong.. see item J on this recent ICL
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/2012_03_12_Uniform_Manual_EDA9CCE9FE03A.pdf (http://capmembers.com/media/cms/2012_03_12_Uniform_Manual_EDA9CCE9FE03A.pdf)
And "by the regs", that expired in June.
As pointed out already, Interim Change Letter to CAPM 39-1, dated 12 March 2012, states the following:
QuoteThe standard AF blue beret with the Blue Beret activity hat device may be worn with the BDU uniform after the completion of the activity.
What do you think "after the completion of the activity" means?
Quote from: Eclipse on November 12, 2012, 09:45:41 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 12, 2012, 09:41:45 PM
Nope, you are wrong.. see item J on this recent ICL
http://capmembers.com/media/cms/2012_03_12_Uniform_Manual_EDA9CCE9FE03A.pdf (http://capmembers.com/media/cms/2012_03_12_Uniform_Manual_EDA9CCE9FE03A.pdf)
And "by the regs", that expired in June.
That's a different issue. Everyone knows that CAPM 39-1 is way overdue for an update.
Quote from: RSalort on November 12, 2012, 09:50:54 PMThat's a different issue. Everyone knows that CAPM 39-1 is way overdue for an update.
No, that's
precisely the issue - that NHQ issues memorandums and ICLs which conflict with existing regulations, but
no one follows up, despite the fact that the regs on ICL expirations have always been very clear, and were updated
last month.
CAPR 5-4 specifies that ICL's intended for permanent incorporation expire after 90 days.
You can't just ignore that fact and still point to the memo as in force.
I personally have no issue with using ICLs as necessary, but then I don't understand why, when they were updating 5-4 anyway, they
didn't change the verbiage to remove the expiration dates. Clearly as recently as 3 weeks ago, NHQ concurred that ICLs
do, in fact, expire.
So, does that mean that the Wings that have authorised wear of the blue beret by their members are out of line according to CAP regs?
My wing hasn't authorised it and I don't have a blue beret, so I don't have a dog in the fight.
Quote from: RSalort on November 12, 2012, 09:50:54 PM
That's a different issue. Everyone knows that CAPM 39-1 is way overdue for an update.
Probably the best-known, most common issue since it was figured out that CAP stood for "Come And Pay."
Whether it will ever be fully overhauled/updated with no Texas-sized holes in it is another matter entirely.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 12, 2012, 09:52:45 PM
So, does that mean that the Wings that have authorised wear of the blue beret by their members are out of line according to CAP regs?
By the letter of the regs. Correct. The only thing actually not expired and in force is 39-1 as published in 2005.
Am I foolish enough to not understand the intent? No. But one still has to ask why 5-4 was left as-is considering that a number
of policies and ICL's are being used which purport to be valid until the reg is updated, in direct contradiction to the respective reg.
One could argue they are all invalidated since 5-4 reaffrims that ICLs expire and they all predate 5-4.
Members should not have to be in the position of figuring out "intent', for something which should be straightforward like uniforms, etc.,
not in this day and age when the regs can be updated and corrected in real time.
Excellent point. CAPM 39-1 (and other outdated regs) should be revised and updated soon. With everything going on in CAP, we should not have to debate reg interpretations due to outdated or vague instructions. It's hard enough to get members to wear uniforms properly without having to interpret what is valid or not.
Check your wings supplement to39-1
Florida Wing allows for those completing NBB to wear the blue beret within the Wing, but prohibits it on military installations, according to their supplement.
Am I the only one who wants to go NBB and doesn't care about the beret?
Quote from: NY Wing King on November 18, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
Am I the only one who wants to go NBB and doesn't care about the beret?
No. The only one active on captalk, quite likely.
Quote from: NY Wing King on November 18, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
Am I the only one who wants to go NBB and doesn't care about the beret?
If I were your CC, I'd nominate you for a Commander's Commendation...
I prefer working the WIWG REDCAP over paying a bunch of money to do the same thing and get a beret, thank you.
Quote from: CyBorg on November 18, 2012, 04:46:13 PM
Quote from: NY Wing King on November 18, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
Am I the only one who wants to go NBB and doesn't care about the beret?
If I were your CC, I'd nominate you for a Commander's Commendation...
Well thank you very much sir/ma'am.
Quote from: NY Wing King on November 18, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
Am I the only one who wants to go NBB and doesn't care about the beret?
In fact, you are not. I have posted several times on here, that I love NBB as an NCSA but have no love for the felt French surrender hat itself.
The beret is nice but a someone who is applying December 1st, I going for the airshow. At encampment it was brought up in a class and suddenly 3 cadets wanted to go. Coincidence?
If you brought up a chance to go to a Gregorian Chant concert during a class at encampment, three cadets would want to go. ::)
Quote from: NY Wing King on November 19, 2012, 12:07:12 AM
I going for the airshow.
Going for the airshow?
This is one of the largest misconceptions about NBB and it trips my trigger every time I see it.
This NCSA is a WORKING NCSA. It's a bonus that the airshow is going on, but CAP is up there to work. On airshow days, the flights work a 12 hour shift of Emergency Services, Warbird Security, flight line marshalling, KP, CQ and any other random tasking the EAA/FAA/DOD/AF wants CAP to do.
NBB is not a free-for-all at the EAA Airventure, its working (and hard long days at that) end rant...
Quote from: NCRblues on November 18, 2012, 11:38:46 PM
Quote from: NY Wing King on November 18, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
Am I the only one who wants to go NBB and doesn't care about the beret?
In fact, you are not. I have posted several times on here, that I love NBB as an NCSA but have no love for the felt French surrender hat itself.
French Surrender Hat that pulls my trigger and I take GREAT OFFENCE to that!!!!!!
Quote from: sab163 on November 19, 2012, 01:52:23 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 18, 2012, 11:38:46 PM
Quote from: NY Wing King on November 18, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
Am I the only one who wants to go NBB and doesn't care about the beret?
In fact, you are not. I have posted several times on here, that I love NBB as an NCSA but have no love for the felt French surrender hat itself.
French Surrender Hat that pulls my trigger and I take GREAT OFFENCE to that!!!!!!
Lighten up Francis......
Quote from: sab163 on November 19, 2012, 01:52:23 AM
French Surrender Hat that pulls my trigger and I take GREAT OFFENCE to that!!!!!!
Stop me if you've heard this one.
How can you tell if a used tank is from France?
Quote from: cap235629 on November 19, 2012, 02:41:08 AM
Quote from: sab163 on November 19, 2012, 01:52:23 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on November 18, 2012, 11:38:46 PM
Quote from: NY Wing King on November 18, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
Am I the only one who wants to go NBB and doesn't care about the beret?
In fact, you are not. I have posted several times on here, that I love NBB as an NCSA but have no love for the felt French surrender hat itself.
French Surrender Hat that pulls my trigger and I take GREAT OFFENCE to that!!!!!!
Lighten up Francis...... (http://forums.cadetstuff.org/images/smilies/icon_drillsergeant.gif)<-
FTFY! ;)
Quote from: NCRblues on November 18, 2012, 11:38:46 PM
In fact, you are not. I have posted several times on here, that I love NBB as an NCSA but have no love for the felt French surrender hat itself.
I trace my ancestry in part to Alsace-Lorraine...OK, it's mostly ethnic Germans but it's still part of France...they didn't surrender; a lot of them were the most vigorous members of the Resistance.
Again, I have no idea why there is such antipathy to the beret in the U.S., considering that it is common issue in Commonwealth countries and virtually all of Europe (not just Frankreich).
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2012, 03:13:01 AM
Quote from: sab163 on November 19, 2012, 01:52:23 AM
French Surrender Hat that pulls my trigger and I take GREAT OFFENCE to that!!!!!!
Stop me if you've heard this one.
How can you tell if a used tank is from France?
It has a window in the back to see the war?
It is in like new condition?
Guns still in shrink wrap, but reverse is burned out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_forces_in_Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_forces_in_Afghanistan)
Forgive me if I don't think it's necessarily fair to be mocking a country that entered a war and has stuck it out the whole time because WE were attacked. Even when our own government has sneered at the French for not supporting us for our reasons to attack Iraq. While they may not have a very large force, over half their expenditures for foreign operations go to fighting in Afghanistan primarily on our behalf.
While some may think it may be 'funny' or viewed as acceptable to make fun of our ally I think it is inappropriate. Especially around cadets that don't know any better and allow that to become part of their world view. As to WW2 I would say the French fought hard but at the time were out-thought, out-maneuvered, and out-gunned. Just like everyone else the Nazi's steam rolled in the early part of the war. Dunkirk was a disaster for the Brits, but imagine how much harder it was for the French forces that had to get in ships and leave their homeland behind to an aggressive enemy.
So the government surrendered rather than watch their whole country be destroyed by an inevitable defeat, in some ways it likely saved many French civilian lives, no matter how bitter a pill it was to swallow. Yes there were those who collaborated with the Nazi's but there were also Americans who did so. Or perhaps we make fun of them for their defeat in Vietnam? I don't seem to recall, in the end, us necessarily doing much better.
Sorry, end rant. It's an attitude that just pisses me off. I can't say I necessarily blame the French for wanting their own nuclear weapons, not under control of NATO. There may be something to their thought that the United States wouldn't come to their aid if we didn't feel we were directly threatened some how.
^^^ +1
Well said.
Quote from: ProdigalJim on November 19, 2012, 12:46:26 PM
^^^ +1
Well said.
And any country that can come up with birds like these is worthy of respect...
(http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/miragef1b_kp.jpg)
Dassault Mirage F1
(http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/mirage2000b_kp.jpg)
Dassault Mirage 2000
(http://static.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/1192741-bigthumbnail.jpg)
Dassault Mirage III
(RAAF example...they chose it over our F-104 Starfighter and the English Electric Lightning, the first time they elected to not "go British" with a major aircraft purchase)
(http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/mirage_iv_mv.jpg)
Dassault Mirage IV (nuclear carrier)
(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l389/LaurentH_bucket/BA08_Dassault-Breguet_Mirage_5BA_Blu_Savigny20110721_3.jpg)
Strip the Mirage III down to basics, call it the Mirage 5 and make more money selling to overseas clients than we did with the F-5...
(http://www.pcdesktopwallpaper.com/albums/wallpapers-military/Rafale-003.jpg)
Dassault Rafale, made in both air force and naval versions...and can go head-to-head with almost anything flying today.
However, I've never actually seen the French AF wearing berets...at least not in dress uniform.
How long did they last against Germany again!?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 19, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
How long did they last against Germany again!?
OK, even >I< know when to quit.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2012, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 19, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
How long did they last against Germany again!?
OK, even >I< know when to quit.
Just saying. I have no disrespect for France or French people. I found "Freedom Fries" to be extremely silly. But that said, they get heartburn for the wars they HAVE lost, but especially the BIG ONE.
It's funny how many cadets go to this activity just so they can wear the beret.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 19, 2012, 09:18:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2012, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 19, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
How long did they last against Germany again!?
OK, even >I< know when to quit.
Just saying. I have no disrespect for France or French people. I found "Freedom Fries" to be extremely silly. But that said, they get heartburn for the wars they HAVE lost, but especially the BIG ONE.
They spent a helluva lot more time in WWI than the US did. Also, let's not forget that they participated in things like the "Hundred Years' War"
That said, the WW2 experience is more of a historical abberation than a pattern.
I guess we will have to disagree than.
I feel the French took the easy way out in the war. I want no part of a government, that when faced with the complete domination of there way of life, simply puts up the white flag. Nor do I believe anyone should accept the French governments surrender and compliance in the Nazi program as ok in any way.
Winston Churchill faced the same options as the French did. Surrender and save a few thousand battlefield lives, or fight on and save tens of thousands from the Nazi slaughter in the death camps and roving death squads.
Churchill's speech of 28 May 1940 said "I have only to add that nothing which may happen in this battle can in any way relieve us of our duty to defend the world cause to which we have vowed ourselves"
Churchill's ever famous speech on 4 June 1940 to the House of Commons laid out the simple plan that surrender CAN NEVER be an option to tyrants.
Churchill said "Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
This is the attitude that needs to be propagated to our young people, the next generation that will have no first hand knowledge of the war. This generation in the schools now will never remember speaking to a ww2 vet. They will hear no firsthand stories. So it is imperative that we condone the French surrender as the easy way out, and make Great Britains defiance a shining example of what must be done when liberty and freedom are threatened by pure evil.
And although they also lost French Indochina, they showed a lot of courage in that battle. I read a book about Dien Bien Phu, where it states they would send paratrooper battalions night after night, only to lose them in a day or two. Not because they could not fight, but because they were outfought in bad terrain. In other words, they had two things against them. More of the enemy than they could bring and also that they were defending a valley where the enemy was in the hills.
I do not have much respect for what the French achieved during WWII. But they are fighters.
Flyers
Quote from: JeffDG on November 19, 2012, 09:38:19 PM
They spent a helluva lot more time in WWI than the US did. Also, let's not forget that they participated in things like the "Hundred Years' War"
That said, the WW2 experience is more of a historical abberation than a pattern.
My people also spent a lot of time in that war. Sometimes charging German lines with few weapons. Surrender was not an option.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2012, 01:42:27 AM
Quote from: NY Wing King on November 19, 2012, 12:07:12 AM
I going for the airshow.
Going for the airshow?
This is one of the largest misconceptions about NBB and it trips my trigger every time I see it.
This NCSA is a WORKING NCSA. It's a bonus that the airshow is going on, but CAP is up there to work. On airshow days, the flights work a 12 hour shift of Emergency Services, Warbird Security, flight line marshalling, KP, CQ and any other random tasking the EAA/FAA/DOD/AF wants CAP to do.
NBB is not a free-for-all at the EAA Airventure, its working (and hard long days at that) end rant...
I know. I oversimplified it. I want to work the radios. I want to marshal the aircraft. I want to find the ELTs and interact with the public.
Quote from: Equinox on November 19, 2012, 09:33:37 PMIt's funny how many cadets go to this activity just so they can wear the beret.
Less funny is the number of seniors that do the exact same thing.
I think the Free French (or the Fighting French, as they preferred to be called) are being ignored.
They manned several RAF squadrons, like 340 "Lorraine" Squadron:
(http://www.rafweb.org/Markings/340Sqn2.jpg)
Some of them flew with Regiment Normandie-Niemen, as part of the Soviet Air Force:
(http://www.acesofww2.com/nn/yak3_normandieniemen.jpg)
They weren't all Vichy turncoats. Let us not forget that there were Nazi sympathisers/collaborators in almost every Allied country. Vidkun Quisling, Sir Oswald Moseley, Britisches Freikorps, anyone?
NCRBlues: I am a huge admirer of Sir Winston Churchill and have read extensively about him. He was not nearly as dismissive of France after their defeat as you are. He actively encouraged Frenchmen to fight on with UK forces, which a great many did.
In any case, there is no reason to denigrate a nation and it's fighting forces just to prove a "point" as to why you don't like their headgear.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2012, 09:59:12 PM
Winston Churchill faced the same options as the French did. Surrender and save a few thousand battlefield lives, or fight on and save tens of thousands from the Nazi slaughter in the death camps and roving death squads.
Churchill also had the English Channel between he and the German Army, so that was something he had going for him.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Churchill...but to equate the positions of the French and the UK at that point in time is just disingenuous.
Quote from: JeffDG on November 20, 2012, 02:14:24 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Churchill...but to equate the positions of the French and the UK at that point in time is just disingenuous.
Quite so.
Britain also had a lot more colonies to draw on for manpower, not to mention autonomous Dominions (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and others) who supplied entire units to fight under British oversight and many, many more individuals who joined the RAF, RN and British Army.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2012, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 19, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
How long did they last against Germany again!?
OK, even >I< know when to quit.
Which time? IIRC Nepolian kicked some major butt until the rest of the world got involved.
As for WWI.....France held out four three year before the U.S. bailed out the UK and France.
In WWII because the U.S. failed to follow through with backing the Legue of Nations we allowed Hitler to build a huge illegal army and let him take France. France was out classed, out manuvered and with out a mobile enough army....so they surrendered....sort of.
Since then....I guess you can say that France has lost a lot of wars....let's see SE Asia....I seem to think we lost that one too.
Don't frack with me....I'm a history major!
:)
Quote from: lordmonar on November 20, 2012, 07:07:54 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 19, 2012, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on November 19, 2012, 09:14:41 PM
How long did they last against Germany again!?
OK, even >I< know when to quit.
Which time? IIRC Nepolian kicked some major butt until the rest of the world got involved.
As for WWI.....France held out four three year before the U.S. bailed out the UK and France.
WWI was on the downslide for Germany well before the US got involved. It may have taken another year or so, but the US didn't "bail out" the UK and France, it could well be argued they jumped in to grab some glory once an outcome was in sight...kind of like the Soviets did with Japan in WW2.
Quote from: Equinox on November 19, 2012, 09:33:37 PM
It's funny how many cadets go to this activity just so they can wear the beret.
So?
Look at it from a mission point of view.
The mission is to get the airshow done. CAP needs XXX number of cadets and seniiors to get said mission done.
Offer them a beret for life and they will pay $200+air fair and give up two weeks of their time for the privilage of working their butts off.
I think that it is and OUTSTANDING incentive.
With all the bling hates out there.......no one seems to look at the REASON why we use bling when we us it.
The BSA has this locked down. You want someone to go to training, and do this or that thing.....they just make a "knot" for it and send it out to the field. Those guys who are knot hunters then do all the requirments, get their knot, buy the patch and sew it on their uniform. The BSA wins....and it only cost them the upfront cost of getting the knots patches made.
If you think this is wrong.....then you need to be going after all those people who joined the military for the education benifits and you need to go after the Army for all the bling they have on their dress uniforms.
Quote from: NCRblues on November 19, 2012, 09:59:12 PM
I guess we will have to disagree than.
I feel the French took the easy way out in the war. I want no part of a government, that when faced with the complete domination of there way of life, simply puts up the white flag. Nor do I believe anyone should accept the French governments surrender and compliance in the Nazi program as ok in any way.[/qutoe]Except that you forget that France got majorly destroyed in the first world war. Almost all of the fighting was done on french soil. France lost almost 1.7milliion dead and 4.2 million wounded....from a population of only 39.6 million people. They had the highest percentage of poluation dead of the western countires (Romania and Serbia got majorly reamed). Their economy was devistated their cities destroyed...they were not in the mood to do that again.
QuoteWinston Churchill faced the same options as the French did. Surrender and save a few thousand battlefield lives, or fight on and save tens of thousands from the Nazi slaughter in the death camps and roving death squads.
I have to disagree that the options were the same.....In 1940 there were not any German Troops outside london....nor had Britian taken the brunt as france did in the first world war.
QuoteChurchill's speech of 28 May 1940 said "I have only to add that nothing which may happen in this battle can in any way relieve us of our duty to defend the world cause to which we have vowed ourselves"
Churchill's ever famous speech on 4 June 1940 to the House of Commons laid out the simple plan that surrender CAN NEVER be an option to tyrants.
Churchill said "Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
This is the attitude that needs to be propagated to our young people, the next generation that will have no first hand knowledge of the war. This generation in the schools now will never remember speaking to a ww2 vet. They will hear no firsthand stories. So it is imperative that we condone the French surrender as the easy way out, and make Great Britains defiance a shining example of what must be done when liberty and freedom are threatened by pure evil.
While ignoring the fact that the U.S. hemmed and hawed...and allowed the whole thing to happen in the first place by not being a leader in 1919 and making the World League work. I agree. I disagree that we need to condemn France for taking the "easy" way out. It was not easy and it certainly saved french lives and preseved their cities, industry. etc.