CAP Talk

Here is the best I can find, please let me know if I missed something:

1. On August 2006 the NB proclaimed that Blue Beret and Hawk Mountain items can be worn with BDUS, blue or green.  NOTE: nothing said about USAF-style or corp uniforms.
2. The Knowledgebase #1851, originally early published in 2008, added " The board did not approve wear of these items with service uniforms."
3. On 1 April 2008, then-interim National Commander issued ICL with "2. Several other uniform proposals were approved but require the approval of USAF before implementation.  When this approval is received these items will be announced"

That is the final word I can find.  Is there something else causing confusion?

Nope - that's the last mention, which falls into two camps:

1) NB decisions are binding and immediate regardless of publishing to the field.

2) NB decisions require administrative updates (regs, ICL, formal guidance, etc.) before being enforceable.

And that 1 sentence is the only and last mention of this issue since 2006.

That quite some time to not have clarified the issue...
How does one go about getting the attention of the NB?

Sigh

I'll just continue to wear my blue beret with my BDUs and service uniforms whenever not directed otherwise.... On my JROTC uniform  8)

I really wish this issue would get resolved once and for all. That may be wishful thinking on my part.  >:(
Several years ago I visited a unit that I thought I might join due to the possibility of moving to that area and there was one "high speed" 19-20ish cadet wearing a beret with a small round badge that I couldn't identify.
A couple of years later, as CDC, I got into situation where a belligerent cadet officer refused to remove his beret after coming back from NBB, and our SQ CC backed him on it.
All the higher ups need to get the issue of special uniform items resolved and in writing.

Quote from: Dad2-4 on July 30, 2010, 03:15:11 AMSeveral years ago I visited a unit that I thought I might join due to the possibility of moving to that area and there was one "high speed" 19-20ish cadet wearing a beret with a small round badge that I couldn't identify. A couple of years later, as CDC, I got into situation where a belligerent cadet officer refused to remove his beret after coming back from NBB, and our SQ CC backed him on it.

I've seen that behavior as well. It's a continuing problem. I just don't understand where a lot of people think that it's OK to do whatever they feel like. Still wonder how we function with such behavior.

Quote from: Dad2-4 on July 30, 2010, 03:15:11 AM
All the higher ups need to get the issue of special uniform items resolved and in writing.

I'll second that one.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 30, 2010, 03:24:17 AM

Quote from: Dad2-4 on July 30, 2010, 03:15:11 AMSeveral years ago I visited a unit that I thought I might join due to the possibility of moving to that area and there was one "high speed" 19-20ish cadet wearing a beret with a small round badge that I couldn't identify. A couple of years later, as CDC, I got into situation where a belligerent cadet officer refused to remove his beret after coming back from NBB, and our SQ CC backed him on it.

I've seen that behavior as well. It's a continuing problem. I just don't understand where a lot of people think that it's OK to do whatever they feel like. Still wonder how we function with such behavior.

We are clearly failing with a cadet who argues with a senior member about something like a hat.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 30, 2010, 03:25:28 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 30, 2010, 03:24:17 AM

Quote from: Dad2-4 on July 30, 2010, 03:15:11 AMSeveral years ago I visited a unit that I thought I might join due to the possibility of moving to that area and there was one "high speed" 19-20ish cadet wearing a beret with a small round badge that I couldn't identify. A couple of years later, as CDC, I got into situation where a belligerent cadet officer refused to remove his beret after coming back from NBB, and our SQ CC backed him on it.

I've seen that behavior as well. It's a continuing problem. I just don't understand where a lot of people think that it's OK to do whatever they feel like. Still wonder how we function with such behavior.

We are clearly failing with a cadet who argues with a senior member about something like a hat.

Not just cadets. I see the problems in other places.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 30, 2010, 03:25:28 AM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 30, 2010, 03:24:17 AM

Quote from: Dad2-4 on July 30, 2010, 03:15:11 AMSeveral years ago I visited a unit that I thought I might join due to the possibility of moving to that area and there was one "high speed" 19-20ish cadet wearing a beret with a small round badge that I couldn't identify. A couple of years later, as CDC, I got into situation where a belligerent cadet officer refused to remove his beret after coming back from NBB, and our SQ CC backed him on it.

I've seen that behavior as well. It's a continuing problem. I just don't understand where a lot of people think that it's OK to do whatever they feel like. Still wonder how we function with such behavior.

We are clearly failing with a cadet who argues with a senior member about something like a hat.

Sir, respectfully, the cadets had to do a very difficult mission to earn "teh bling". I think they should get to wear the wistles, pistol belts, berets and the beret insignia on their blues as well!  ::)

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 30, 2010, 02:15:51 PMSir, respectfully, the cadets had to do a very difficult mission to earn "teh bling". I think they should get to wear the wistles, pistol belts, berets and the beret insignia on their blues as well!  ::)

Respectfully, Cadet, I think that they should follow regulations.

Sadly, too few members, Senior AND Cadet, read, understand, and follow them.

Quote from: JoeTomasone on July 30, 2010, 02:22:47 PM

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 30, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
Sir, respectfully, the cadets had to do a very difficult mission to earn "teh bling". I think they should get to wear the wistles, pistol belts, berets and the beret insignia on their blues as well!  ::)

Respectfully, Cadet, I think that they should follow regulations.

Sadly, too few members, Senior AND Cadet, read, understand, and follow them.

Sir, I think the rolling eyes icon got lost in translation. Eclipse knows I'm very much against Hawk/BB bling.

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on July 30, 2010, 02:26:41 PMSir, I think the rolling eyes icon got lost in translation. Eclipse knows I'm very much against Hawk/BB bling.

Yeah, I think I had too much venom in the veins after reading too many posts from people who think "if you desire it, it's authorized"..  Sorry 'bout that!

I say we abolish all berets in CAP.  No use for them.  Regardless of what the military does, CAP doesnt need to be giving out berets for cadets finishing a 5 day, adult guarded whatever activity...  Give me a break. 

Maybe its my Marine background.  You could have a scout sniper assigned to recon and a data entry clerk standing next to each other in uniform, and guess what?  You wouldn't be able to tell which one was which.  Perhaps the cadet program, or, Im sorry, the senior members should take notice.  Lets face it, its the seniors who want the berets and bling.  They set the direction, not the cadets.  So I blame the senior member leadership for creating the commando-elite mindset some of these cadets are coming back with.

Quote from: Flying Pig on July 30, 2010, 03:57:57 PM
I say we abolish all berets in CAP.  No use for them.  Regardless of what the military does, CAP doesnt need to be giving out berets for cadets finishing a 5 day, adult guarded whatever activity...  Give me a break. 

YES!!!!

Quote from: JoeTomasone on July 30, 2010, 02:46:27 PMYeah, I think I had too much venom in the veins after reading too many posts from people who think "if you desire it, it's authorized"..  Sorry 'bout that!

That's it! That covers the attitude. Unfortunately, it's not even limited to cadets or seniors. The mindset seems to exist in society in general.

Quote from: Flying Pig on July 30, 2010, 03:57:57 PM
I say we abolish all berets in CAP.  No use for them.  Regardless of what the military does, CAP doesnt need to be giving out berets for cadets finishing a 5 day, adult guarded whatever activity...

I could get on board with that. Military training that awards a beret tends to be pretty in depth and requires a great deal. Many of our members seem to think that they're "peers" of the military personnel that receive them, and that's a part of the problem. 

^Let me take it a step farther.  In the military, berets are awarded when your trained and actually serving with a unit in that capacity.  You dont attend the school and then wear the beret for the rest of your career.  If your with the 5th Special Forces Grp, if you decide to leave and become a recruiter, you stop wearing your green beret.  We have patches, ribbons and berets.  So essentially, if you attend the week long Blue Beret, you are leaving with 3 symbols for completing one activity.  Lets not even mention the bucket of stuff you leave with after Hawk.  A little much I think.  Lets face it, cadets want the beret because it signifies an elite status.  Its different than everyone else.

As Flying Pig said, "Lets face it, cadets want the beret because it signifies an elite status.  Its different than everyone else."  And that's the same reason Special Forces want to wear them.. Talking about attitudes, I have seen more senior members with bad attitudes trying to tell cadets that they couldn't wear the Blue Beret when in BDU's than you can shake a stick at.  I have also seen senior members telling cadets that they had their overseas caps tucked into the wrong side of their trousers/belt.  Since the seniors are wrong in both of these scenarios, should we expect anymore out of our cadets than we do our seniors??  And if we weren't trying to recruit cadets based upon Bling, we would get rid of the military style uniform entirely and do our own thing.  Everyone needs to learn the Reg's and upper echelon needs to keep the Reg's up to date.. 

Quote from: AirAux on July 30, 2010, 04:54:38 PM
As Flying Pig said, "Lets face it, cadets want the beret because it signifies an elite status.  Its different than everyone else."  And that's the same reason Special Forces want to wear them.. Talking about attitudes, I have seen more senior members with bad attitudes trying to tell cadets that they couldn't wear the Blue Beret when in BDU's than you can shake a stick at.  I have also seen senior members telling cadets that they had their overseas caps tucked into the wrong side of their trousers/belt.  Since the seniors are wrong in both of these scenarios, should we expect anymore out of our cadets than we do our seniors??  And if we weren't trying to recruit cadets based upon Bling, we would get rid of the military style uniform entirely and do our own thing.  Everyone needs to learn the Reg's and upper echelon needs to keep the Reg's up to date..

I doubt you met many special forces dudes who joined 'for the beret.' Also, the fact of the matter is that there was never a regulation upgrade or ICL about the beret or Hawk Mountain stuff or whatever. Unless I'm mistaken, all of that stuff came down during the regime of a certain national commander who may or may not of been trying to consolidate his power.

Quote from: Flying Pig on July 30, 2010, 04:31:12 PM
^Let me take it a step farther.  In the military, berets are awarded when your trained and actually serving with a unit in that capacity.  You dont attend the school and then wear the beret for the rest of your career.  If your with the 5th Special Forces Grp, if you decide to leave and become a recruiter, you stop wearing your green beret.  We have patches, ribbons and berets.  So essentially, if you attend the week long Blue Beret, you are leaving with 3 symbols for completing one activity.  Lets not even mention the bucket of stuff you leave with after Hawk.  A little much I think.  Lets face it, cadets want the beret because it signifies an elite status.  Its different than everyone else.

That's how the Army does it, the Air Force links most berets to the career field. However, the "elite" status of the beret to CAP members is the issue. I think most people here are familiar with the story of an individual that wished to wear the beret awarded by a school, even though he hadn't attended the school. I think that behavior probably contributed to much of the problem. We can easily do away with berets, they aren't all that practical.

I don't mind bling if it's not garish or "over the top." However, it needs to signify something that isn't covered by other insignia. If a course utilizes the training requirements for ground team, but adds an appreciable amount of additional training that is useful and applicable to our mission, I've got no issue. But if it's gonna be treated as "elite", it needs to be "elite." Just a "few more things" over Ground Team doesn't make it something all that special.

Quote from: AirAux on July 30, 2010, 04:54:38 PMAnd if we weren't trying to recruit cadets based upon Bling, we would get rid of the military style uniform entirely and do our own thing.

I don't see us recruiting based on bling. Where we have failed is in teaching that the bling is supposed to signify accomplishment or training of value. It's supposed to mean something. Each insignia should have a distinctly separate meaning from anything else. No "double dip" for multiple insignias that signify the same pool of training.

Giving up the military aspect isn't the answer. For those so vehemently against it, CAP isn't the place for them. And the nature of our organization is not to "do our own thing." It's about service. Too many people forget that.

Quote from: AirAux on July 30, 2010, 04:54:38 PMEveryone needs to learn the Reg's and upper echelon needs to keep the Reg's up to date..

Agreed, wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, there are too many people with a liberal attitude towards the regs, up to date or not. A valid reg is meaningless if people think that they don't have to follow it.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 30, 2010, 04:19:14 PM
Military training that awards a beret tends to be pretty in depth and requires a great deal.

Completion of US Army Basic Training awards the Black Beret.

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 30, 2010, 04:19:14 PM
Many of our members seem to think that they're "peers" of the military personnel that receive them, and that's a part of the problem.

It is just part of the eternal search for bling that looks cool and most other people do not have.

Quote from: Short Field on July 30, 2010, 06:18:15 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 30, 2010, 04:19:14 PM
Military training that awards a beret tends to be pretty in depth and requires a great deal.

Completion of US Army Basic Training awards the Black Beret.

Yep, and it's nine weeks long. It's the most basic course that awards a beret. And it's a basis for everything else in a soldier's career, a beginning not an end. CAP members are getting a beanie for what, a week long activity? Finish a week, it's over, here's a fancy hat.

I've actually run into CAP members with their berets that think that they've accomplished more than a soldier did out of boot camp. They put themselves on the same level as Army Airborne/Rangers, and Air Force Pararescue/Combat Control. I'm not kidding, I've actually seen this attitude. And I find it disturbing.

Quote from: Short Field on July 30, 2010, 06:18:15 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on July 30, 2010, 04:19:14 PM
Many of our members seem to think that they're "peers" of the military personnel that receive them, and that's a part of the problem.

It is just part of the eternal search for bling that looks cool and most other people do not have.

Agreed. If you've done something to get the bling that I'm not capable of, I can respect that. But if it's something I can do, but haven't gotten around to or just not interested in, it's not really worth much to me.

Quote from: JThemann on July 30, 2010, 04:59:15 PMI doubt you met many special forces dudes who joined 'for the beret.' Also, the fact of the matter is that there was never a regulation upgrade or ICL about the beret or Hawk Mountain stuff or whatever. Unless I'm mistaken, all of that stuff came down during the regime of a certain national commander who may or may not of been trying to consolidate his power.

Got to throw the BS flag on this one....I remember the heart burn that the Rangers had when Shinseki (sp?) gave everyone in the army a beret.  The rangers went bullistics that the "lost" their distinctive head gear.

Eventually the moved to the tan beret.

Yes no one is or should be joining a unit or doing an acitivity (CAP or Real Military) just for the hat.........but it is a symbol of their distinctiveness and pride and they will defend it.

Symbols are important.....How would the marines react if someone tried to take away their monster blues or if we tried to pry USAF pilots out of their flight suits, or took away the Special Forces Green Beret?

They would hem and haw and cry foul to high heaven!


On the CAP side.....no matter what you personally feel about it.......just ignore it.  The award the beret and the NB sort of authorised it.   If Cadet snuffy shows up in your unit after NBB sporting his beret....tell him to take it off.  Local commanders have the authority to determine what head gear their people will wear (within certain parameters :)).

The cadet Dad2-4 encountered...did the right thing....(except he was disrepectful).  The DCC said no the CC said yes....and the regs are not clear.

What's the problem?

Dad2-4 is bent out of shape because his authority was undermined by the CC....but that happen all the time with confusing orders and regulations.

Just because the NB said they are authorised....does not mean they are manditory.  Squadron CC's still have a lot of authority about how to wear the uniform.

T-shirt color, patches on, patches off.  Head gear.

It is a simple fix and nothing to get bent out of shape over.  Don't take away a tool that some other unit or activity findes useful for getting their mission done, simply because you don't like it. 

Quote from: Flying Pig on July 30, 2010, 03:57:57 PM
I say we abolish all berets in CAP.  No use for them.  Regardless of what the military does, CAP doesnt need to be giving out berets for cadets finishing a 5 day, adult guarded whatever activity...  Give me a break.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

There is much opinion out there.

I went to Blue Beret (called National Special Service Corps at the time) in 1985 (India Flight); did 7 days at Volk Field, then convoy to Oshkosh where did 8 days (Total of 15 days).  It was tough (for the cadet program) at the time.  Cadre would come in for a 2am PT session, Got dropped for push ups on a regular basis, etc, etc, etc.  Upon completion, could wear the blue beret with the pickle uniform, had a blue shoulder cord for the blues.  I was out of CAP for 20 years, but I still kept the St. Alban's Cross and my original beret.  The skills I learned there (self-reliance, self-motivation) helped get me though fire academy and two police academies.  (Current Blue Beret is 14 days.)

Is there a correlation between Blue Beret and military beret – no.  Should there be – no.  However, in both cases, the beret (or special bling) represents the accomplishment of a feat of some type.  I would argue that any of the special  military berets awarded are not to recognize the completion of training, but rather to recognize that the person had the internal willingness and strength of character to complete said training.  I don't have a problem with "elite" units in the military, like some do.  I believe that while these units do make a contribution to the overall mission, their existence has a secondary purpose that is far greater than their special purpose – that is motivation.  Many, many, many soldiers, airmen, marines, and sailors have been motivated to work very hard to be selected for an elite unit.  Far more than are actually selected, but every last one of them has made a greater contribution to their home unit as a direct result of their striving for the elite unit.

In CAP, the people that attend BB, Hawk Mountain, Cadet Survival School, PJOC, etc, are typically more highly motivated to work harder, to strive for personal betterment, and, in turn, that makes for better home units.  Can we compare Blue Beret or Hawk Mountain or PJOC   to   Special Warfare or SEALS or Recon?  No.  But then you don't see and 13, 14, 15 year olds going through those either.  To me, when I went to BB, it was an experience because I made it through – I was proud.  To me, it was if I (15 at the time) had gone through my own version of special school.  I wasn't the 25-28 year old that was trying out for SOF, I didn't have that decade of experience.  Is it the same – no.  But, put it in the context of what it is (a harder-than-normal activity for YOUTH) and it is still special.  In my mind, I think there should be berets awarded at other activities – NESA, PJOC, Hawk (jsut off top of my head - not saying there aren't a couple of other schools out there that shouldn't have them).  These are truly the more demanding of NCSAs. And remember - these are kids.  What is not all that hard to us can be very difficult for them. 

Again, can we say they are the same as military – NO.  But to the cadet, they still represent something that is special to them.  And for THAT reason, we should keep them.  That beret, or bling, might be the reason a cadet went to that activity where they learned the self skills that enabled them to later earn the "real" one.     

Our reputation would benefit from consistent and proper wear of a basic bling-free uniform.  Limit the shiny stuff to drill teams and color guards (only while performing those duties) and we'd look a lot better IMHO.  Recruiting will benefit more from having our act together than from a pile of excessive blingage.

Quote from: wuzafuzz on July 30, 2010, 08:00:01 PM
Our reputation would benefit from consistent and proper wear of a basic bling-free uniform.  Limit the shiny stuff to drill teams and color guards (only while performing those duties) and we'd look a lot better IMHO.  Recruiting will benefit more from having our act together than from a pile of excessive blingage.

Are you thinking like a common-sense senior member or are you thinking like a teenage cadet?

Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on July 30, 2010, 08:01:42 PM

Quote from: wuzafuzz on July 30, 2010, 08:00:01 PM
Our reputation would benefit from consistent and proper wear of a basic bling-free uniform.  Limit the shiny stuff to drill teams and color guards (only while performing those duties) and we'd look a lot better IMHO.  Recruiting will benefit more from having our act together than from a pile of excessive blingage.

Are you thinking like a common-sense senior member or are you thinking like a teenage cadet?

Both. 

I was a Naval Sea cadet and a police explorer during my teenage years.  My training for both was quite a bit more challenging than what most CAP cadets endure.  In both organizations we were proud of our accomplishments; rightly so for our age.  Our police explorer uniforms were significantly less flashy than the real cops, and their unforms were fairly utilitarian.  Our Sea Cadet uniforms were the equal of your everyday sailor (excepting the obvious NSCC emblems).  Both were great youth programs that didn't need to go off the reservation to keep teens engaged.

We should be conscious of comparisons to military berets because we are wearing a military uniform.  As with our grade insignia there might not be a direct correlation to the military, but comparisons are inevitable and we should be careful of the image we are cultivating.

Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on July 30, 2010, 07:58:24 PM
In CAP, the people that attend BB, Hawk Mountain, Cadet Survival School, PJOC, etc, are typically more highly motivated to work harder, to strive for personal betterment, and, in turn, that makes for better home units.  Can we compare Blue Beret or Hawk Mountain or PJOC   to   Special Warfare or SEALS or Recon?  No.  But then you don't see and 13, 14, 15 year olds going through those either.  To me, when I went to BB, it was an experience because I made it through – I was proud.  To me, it was if I (15 at the time) had gone through my own version of special school.  I wasn't the 25-28 year old that was trying out for SOF, I didn't have that decade of experience.  Is it the same – no.  But, put it in the context of what it is (a harder-than-normal activity for YOUTH) and it is still special.  In my mind, I think there should be berets awarded at other activities – NESA, PJOC, Hawk (jsut off top of my head - not saying there aren't a couple of other schools out there that shouldn't have them).  These are truly the more demanding of NCSAs. And remember - these are kids.  What is not all that hard to us can be very difficult for them.

Why is it always assumed that only cadets wear the berets?  Haven't you guys seen seniors in your AOR walking around with a blue pancake?

NBB is an airshow, period.  Internally and in marketing we assert that we have a large role, but when you talk to the people that actually run the activity, our role does not appear to be nearly what we think it is, or what it probably was 20 years ago.  It also causes headaches for the local squadron up there thanks to the attitudinal issues of some of the transient members that come by for a few weeks each year and think they own the joint.

I've mentioned before that the National Geographic special on OshKosh from 2007 covers the entire activity end to end, literally from empty field start to empty field end, with everybody from the food vendors to ATC represented, and CAP isn't mentioned or sighted once.   Not once, not even in the crowds - hardly a key partner.

Try finding our name or logo on the Airventure website without using search - plenty of volunteers, not much about CAP.

At least NESA and HMRS train-up members in ES skills, which is the nearest (grand-canyon-wise) that CAP gets to anything remotely "hard".

I'd be less reticent of the beret if there was more consistency and sense behind its award, but today it is a shell of what it was when the activity was run in IAWG.  It represents participation, that's all.

I don't know if its worth the text to try and debate whether members who go to NBB are "more" motivated than anyone else - I am personally not a fan of the whole idea, period.  I frankly think airshows are a huge waste of time, money, and fuel, and at much too high a safety risk.  This isn't the 20's when people haven't seen an airplane before - air travel has (sadly) become simply a mode of transport, in a lot of cases not even preferable to driving or other methods (thanks to terrorism, the economy, etc).

What EAA says to me every year is a bunch of members will be out of the loop for 2+ weeks, especially pilots, and we'll see another wave of arguments over a hat.

And with all those mashed potatoes sitting on the plate above, this entire conversation is gone in one or two paragraphs from NHQ, whatever the decision, yet for some reason they have chosen to let this sit on the table for 4+ years, with no indication it will be addressed any time soon, if ever.

So the argument ranges everywhere from "The activity is not significant enough to rate a beret" to "I just think they look stupid" to "The USAF MAY have heart burn over it" through the  silent majority all the way to my side "deal with it locally but don't mess with the other guys tools".

They are all good arguments in one way or the other.

Bottom line....depending on your interpetation of the regs and NB's intent.....the beret is authorised as a permanant award.  Local commanders (IMHO) have the option to control it or not as they see fit.

Beyond that it all up to individual opinion about the stupid hat.
Untill or unless National gives us better guidance we got what we got.

When I was the MAWG Director of Personnel, The Wing regularly got requests from squadrons to authorize the beret. The response was always the same: NO
The reasons for denial were:
1. Too expensive individual purchase
2. Doesn't provide any protection from the elements
3. The wool holds in heat
4. We already had several types of authorized headgear.
5. Only benefit was as an emergency hygiene product, and than only once.

Did the conversation end with...

"I'll get it back to you when I'm done with it"

"That's okay, you can keep it."

Quote from: MSG Mac on July 30, 2010, 10:25:05 PM
When I was the MAWG Director of Personnel, The Wing regularly got requests from squadrons to authorize the beret. The response was always the same: NO
The reasons for denial were:
1. Too expensive individual purchase
2. Doesn't provide any protection from the elements
3. The wool holds in heat
4. We already had several types of authorized headgear.
5. Only benefit was as an emergency hygiene product, and than only once.

1.  Let that be the look out for the units/group wanting it. 
2.  How does a flight cap offer better protection...and if protection from the elements is such a high concern why not authorise the boonie hat?
3. Yes it does......so what?
4. Yes we do....but none of the offer the distinctiveness to help with the objectives of the unit asking authorisation.
5. As a survival tool the beret hold water better then the BDU or Baseball Cap, provides better heat insulation than either of them and continues to maintain its insulation properties even if wet.

What you really mean to say is that "I don't like berets and I was just looking for excuses to keep you from having one".

Sorry you just touched one of my button here.

Wing has the authority to say yea or nay.....I accept that.  If you just don't like them....then say so.  "No...they look silly", end of story.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 30, 2010, 10:38:10 PM
Wing has the authority to say yea or nay...

Many of us have argued they do not, but we've all been there before...

Quote from: Eclipse on July 30, 2010, 10:51:18 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on July 30, 2010, 10:38:10 PM
Wing has the authority to say yea or nay...

Many of us have argued they do not, but we've all been there before...

I don't know how you can say that it is right there in 39-1. Table 1-3 Line 4.

I don't know how much more black and white you can get than that.

You really want to walk here again?

Wing CC's do not have the authority to allow for uniform items not in the national "kit" - berets are not, ergo...

Berets are not ballcaps, are held out as a special item for a reason, and do not fall into the headgear optional area.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 30, 2010, 11:38:22 PM
You really want to walk here again?

Wing CC's do not have the authority to allow for uniform items not in the national "kit" - berets are not, ergo...

Berets are not ballcaps, are held out as a special item for a reason, and do not fall into the headgear optional area.

What national "kit" are you talking about?

Those items which have been approved for wear at the national level.

Berets, for example, have not, or they have.  Depends.

Quote from: lordmonar on July 30, 2010, 10:59:31 PMI don't know how you can say that it is right there in 39-1. Table 1-3 Line 4.

I don't know how much more black and white you can get than that.

Yes, in black and white it says, "Berets provided at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY."
So the cadet that refused to remove it was wrong and disrespectful. I won't go into the cadets history of insubordination. To clarify, he was wearing his blue service uniform at the time, and it was before the 2006 ammendment. As far as I can read in 39-1, the squadron CC didn't have the authority to authorize the cadets wear of the beret.

Quote from: Eclipse on July 30, 2010, 11:42:36 PM
Those items which have been approved for wear at the national level.

Berets, for example, have not, or they have.  Depends.

It is in 39-1...they have been approved by both national and the USAF.

The only thing that is in question is whether the NBB beret is approved for wear outside of the activity as spelled out in table 1-3 line 4.

But it is perfectly clear that if the wing CC with regional approval and National coordination (as spelled out in 39-1) approves blue berets for local color guards (a special purpose) or to designate Ground Team members (A special purpose) he can do so.  He can't approve them for everyone in the Homer J. Simpson Composite Squadron (A general purpose) or everyone in his wing (a general purpose).

The argument about the binding or non binding of NB decisions is very gray....and not what I am talking about.

As someone who wears a beret daily, let me just say that they aren't all they are cracked up to be. The beret has been water downed to the point of where its lost its impact. In the old days, if you saw a beret you knew you were dealing with a warrior. It was a person who had achieved something that very few ever could or would do. Now everybody and their mom is wearing one.

My other issue with the beret is how people wear it. A properly fitted beret takes time to shape, shave and perfect. Often people don't put the proper time and they end up looking like a chef.

I had the very distinct displeasure to wear a beret as a uniform item for  7+ years.  It is , without a doubt, the most useless piece of headwear I've ever used.  Is there a cool factor?  I suppose, to an extent, if you are a Francophile... 

They are hot.

They provide no protection from the rain, sun, snow.  Sunburned face, nose and ears are always fun.

If you don't know how to, or care to, shape, shave and wear one, you look even more ridiculous.

My personal preference is a ball cap or patrol cap.  Or, in the field, a boonie, if necessary.  I think the beret thing would go away if it were replaced with a permanent award, like a ribbon, or small patch for those that wish to share their training resume with others.  Throughout my 20+ year military career, I used a person's ribbons and badges to get an idea of their training level, experience, etc.

Quote from: SPD6696 on July 31, 2010, 05:45:04 AMI think the beret thing would go away if it were replaced with a permanent award, like a ribbon, or small patch for those that wish to share their training resume with others.  Throughout my 20+ year military career, I used a person's ribbons and badges to get an idea of their training level, experience, etc.

Ribbon: NCSA
Badge: Activity Patch

Well, there you go.  If they insist on a special hat, use a ball cap, like a squadron cap... 

Quote from: High Speed Low Drag on July 30, 2010, 07:58:24 PM
There is much opinion out there.

I went to Blue Beret (called National Special Service Corps at the time) in 1985 (India Flight); did 7 days at Volk Field, then convoy to Oshkosh where did 8 days (Total of 15 days).  It was tough (for the cadet program) at the time.  Cadre would come in for a 2am PT session, Got dropped for push ups on a regular basis, etc, etc, etc.  Upon completion, could wear the blue beret with the pickle uniform, had a blue shoulder cord for the blues.  I was out of CAP for 20 years, but I still kept the St. Alban's Cross and my original beret.  The skills I learned there (self-reliance, self-motivation) helped get me though fire academy and two police academies.  (Current Blue Beret is 14 days.)

Is there a correlation between Blue Beret and military beret – no.  Should there be – no.  However, in both cases, the beret (or special bling) represents the accomplishment of a feat of some type.  I would argue that any of the special  military berets awarded are not to recognize the completion of training, but rather to recognize that the person had the internal willingness and strength of character to complete said training.  I don't have a problem with "elite" units in the military, like some do.  I believe that while these units do make a contribution to the overall mission, their existence has a secondary purpose that is far greater than their special purpose – that is motivation.  Many, many, many soldiers, airmen, marines, and sailors have been motivated to work very hard to be selected for an elite unit.  Far more than are actually selected, but every last one of them has made a greater contribution to their home unit as a direct result of their striving for the elite unit.

In CAP, the people that attend BB, Hawk Mountain, Cadet Survival School, PJOC, etc, are typically more highly motivated to work harder, to strive for personal betterment, and, in turn, that makes for better home units.  Can we compare Blue Beret or Hawk Mountain or PJOC   to   Special Warfare or SEALS or Recon?  No.  But then you don't see and 13, 14, 15 year olds going through those either.  To me, when I went to BB, it was an experience because I made it through – I was proud.  To me, it was if I (15 at the time) had gone through my own version of special school.  I wasn't the 25-28 year old that was trying out for SOF, I didn't have that decade of experience.  Is it the same – no.  But, put it in the context of what it is (a harder-than-normal activity for YOUTH) and it is still special.  In my mind, I think there should be berets awarded at other activities – NESA, PJOC, Hawk (jsut off top of my head - not saying there aren't a couple of other schools out there that shouldn't have them).  These are truly the more demanding of NCSAs. And remember - these are kids.  What is not all that hard to us can be very difficult for them. 

Again, can we say they are the same as military – NO.  But to the cadet, they still represent something that is special to them.  And for THAT reason, we should keep them.  That beret, or bling, might be the reason a cadet went to that activity where they learned the self skills that enabled them to later earn the "real" one.     

This may be an argument that I don't need to get into, but I agree with this above post. I just completed NBB 2010 and am proud to wear the Blue Beret. To me, the beret is a symbol of the 2+ weeks we all spent together, in training and in operation at the EAA AirVenture.

While we may not be mentioned in literature about AirVenture, we are a big part of what goes on there. While I was doing security at the Warbirds re-enactment area, an old Spaatz cadet and his family (most of which had been in CAP) came up to me and asked me questions about the activity. It turns out that he and his wife both attended the activity when it was still just guarding corn fields, making sure nobody cut through. Now we marshal planes off the 9-27 runway and through a grass taxiway system, we record the tail numbers of planes landing on both the active runways, we search for ELTs and over due aircraft, we are the primary mode of security around the big jets in the Warbirds area, and we make sure people don't walk through the dead zone of the Ultralight runway. That is just what we do off compound. While on compound, the cadets are responsible for the upkeep of the facility and food and making sure no one is allowed in that shouldn't be.

In the video that we had to watch (every EAA volunteer had to watch it too), it stated that the CAP volunteers, with around 200 people, put in about twice the amount of service that the 300+ EAA volunteers put in. I don't know if they start that from when we arrive (which is a week before the show) or if that is just during the show, but that is still saying alot. One of the sayings that the EAA-to-CAP liaison guy had was "Every pilot, if not every person, here at EAA AirVenture interacts with a CAP cadet." I think that shows that magnitude that we have there.

As far as the wear of the beret, I am NOT an advocate of wearing it with both uniforms. We earned the Beret wearing our BDUs and it should be the only uniform to wear it in. I don't have a reg site for it, but I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings, but the wing commander has authority to prohibit wear of it at wing activities. One of the things that was said by all the returning berets, was that we should continue to wear our BDU cover on ES missions, as it is not practical to wear the beret on missions. I will always have my BDU cover with me whenever I wear that uniform, but I will also have my beret on me.

This years graduates had to go through more than most years. We had to accommodate our operations to the weather and we even had to do night-ops (a first for all berets) with the Jack Roush crash. We earned our berets like the rest of the berets, but we had a tough year.

IMHO, berets should not be outlawed, but they should only be restricted to wear with only the BDUs (as it is now). To every Blue Beret, the beret we wear is a symbol and a memory of the new family we made. It is also a symbol of the training we got (everyone who went this year, left UDF, FLM, and MRO qualified as well as almost GTM2 qualified) as well as a motivator to those who haven't gone to go. While the reason that people should go to NBB is not the beret, about half of the berets I know where first motivated by getting the beret and then realized that there is alot more to the beret and the activity than just getting the beret and were motivated to get the training and mission done, whether or not they earned a beret or not. The process of earning the beret is a tradition, which NBB is known for having a lot of traditions. I am proud to be a Blue Beret. I bet if you ask any beret, they will say they are proud and will even offer up the Blue Beret Creed (something that really shows you what we stand for and why we feel special).

C/Maj Pat Temaat
2010 NBB, India Flight "Fluffies"
"I Survived Sloshkosh"/"AquaVenture 2010" (this year was the wettest year in the history of the AirVenture)

For starters you didn't perform any "security" functions, since we are prohibited from doing that.

I go off to encampment, and look at all the fun I miss   >:D

My OP was a clarification on the regulation.  I stated my findings, I hoped people would cite more.  Apparently my citings stand.

I DID NOT want this to become an essay on the quality of events, particularly when one falls in my AOR.

Speaking of encampment, I did see both cadets and seniors with berets and Hawk tabs in/on their woodland BDU.  I made a note to the Commander and to the PAO to avoid them in photos.

"but I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings," 

That's a joke, right?   :o

Quote from: Eclipse on August 03, 2010, 08:27:06 PM
For starters you didn't perform any "security" functions, since we are prohibited from doing that.

"Surveillance" would be closer to the truth.

But "Security" sounds cooler and more official right?

"Surveillance" is also a law enforcement function.

The proper term is observation.  What we try to make members understand is that whether it's a crash site or a flight line, if someone chooses to walk past them, they have no recourse but to yell and point.

Anything else is against regulations and in many cases the law.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 03, 2010, 08:58:48 PM
"Surveillance" is also a law enforcement function.

The proper term is observation.  What we try to make members understand is that whether it's a crash site or a flight line, if someone chooses to walk past them, they have no recourse but to yell and point.

Anything else is against regulations and in many cases the law.

ref: O-0802 and O-0803, seems like surveillance was the appropriate term.  You and I are in agreement, we're just arguing semantics at this point.

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 03, 2010, 07:59:28 PMeveryone who went this year, left UDF, FLM, and MRO qualified as well as almost GTM2 qualified

Not quite everyone.  Must have one of the slugs assigned to my unit.  The following were signed off:

UDF:  All tasks signed off with two missions completed.  Still needs to complete ICS 100 & 700.
MRO:  All tasks signed off with two missions completed.  Still needs ICS 100 & 700.
FLM:   no fam/prep tasks and two advanced tasks (BCUT & Basic Comm Procedures) signed off.
GTM-3:  two fam/prep tasks and seven advanced tasks (including BCUT & Basic Comm Procedures) signed off.
GTM-2:  one advanced task signed off.

It looks like all the task sign offs were batch processed and overwrote existing Ops Quals  SQTR task completion dates. 

Were all the fam/prep tasks completed BEFORE the advance tasks were signed off?

Quote from: Bluelakes 13 on August 04, 2010, 08:06:57 PM
Were all the fam/prep tasks completed BEFORE the advance tasks were signed off?

Not necessarily required.  A lot of tasks cross over from one rating to the other.  E-services does not care if you have gotten any other sign offs before it certifies the tasks.

So long as missions are not sighed off before the FAM/PREP tasks are completed....I don't see a problem.

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 03, 2010, 07:59:28 PMThis may be an argument that I don't need to get into, but I agree with this above post. I just completed NBB 2010 and am proud to wear the Blue Beret. To me, the beret is a symbol of the 2+ weeks we all spent together, in training and in operation at the EAA AirVenture.

But doesn't the ribbon, patch, qualifications, pictures, videos, phone numbers, and emails you also received accomplish the same thing without a hat that makes you look different from everyone else?

QuoteWhile we may not be mentioned in literature about AirVenture, we are a big part of what goes on there. While I was doing security at the Warbirds re-enactment area, an old Spaatz cadet and his family (most of which had been in CAP) came up to me and asked me questions about the activity. It turns out that he and his wife both attended the activity when it was still just guarding corn fields, making sure nobody cut through. Now we marshal planes off the 9-27 runway and through a grass taxiway system, we record the tail numbers of planes landing on both the active runways, we search for ELTs and over due aircraft, we are the primary mode of security around the big jets in the Warbirds area, and we make sure people don't walk through the dead zone of the Ultralight runway. That is just what we do off compound. While on compound, the cadets are responsible for the upkeep of the facility and food and making sure no one is allowed in that shouldn't be.

I'm glad you did your jobs well.

QuoteAs far as the wear of the beret, I am NOT an advocate of wearing it with both uniforms. We earned the Beret wearing our BDUs and it should be the only uniform to wear it in. I don't have a reg site for it, but I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings, but the wing commander has authority to prohibit wear of it at wing activities. One of the things that was said by all the returning berets, was that we should continue to wear our BDU cover on ES missions, as it is not practical to wear the beret on missions. I will always have my BDU cap with me whenever I wear that uniform, but I will also have my beret on me.

So should COS grads not wear the COS patch on BDU's? I don't really understand what the uniform has to do with the activity. Also, squadron commanders have complete authority over uniforms. If they tell you no beret, it's no beret. If they tell you squadron cap instead of patrol cap, it's squadron cap. A Cadet Major should know that.

QuoteIMHO, berets should not be outlawed, but they should only be restricted to wear with only the BDUs (as it is now). To every Blue Beret, the beret we wear is a symbol and a memory of the new family we made. It is also a symbol of the training we got (everyone who went this year, left UDF, FLM, and MRO qualified as well as almost GTM2 qualified) as well as a motivator to those who haven't gone to go. While the reason that people should go to NBB is not the beret, about half of the berets I know where first motivated by getting the beret and then realized that there is alot more to the beret and the activity than just getting the beret and were motivated to get the training and mission done, whether or not they earned a beret or not. The process of earning the beret is a tradition, which NBB is known for having a lot of traditions. I am proud to be a Blue Beret. I bet if you ask any beret, they will say they are proud and will even offer up the Blue Beret Creed (something that really shows you what we stand for and why we feel special).

I guess my biggest issue with the beret was always that I never understood why you need a symbol so different from the gear everyone else is wearing to feel 'special' or to 'remind you of your family.' If it was that intense of training, or that memorable of an experience, the patch, ribbon, and badges you earned so do it.

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 03, 2010, 07:59:28 PM
I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings, but the wing commander has authority to prohibit wear of it at wing activities.

In that case it's time to shut down the activity...

Quote from: Eclipse on August 03, 2010, 08:27:06 PM
For starters you didn't perform any "security" functions, since we are prohibited from doing that.

We may be prohibited from performing some "security" functions, like enforcing laws. But there is a whole lot which falls under "security" that simply involves guiding people away and around unsafe areas:

"Sir, that's a dangerous area to walk through, please go around."

"Ma'am, you'll need to extinguish that cigar while they fuel that aircraft over there."


And as for NBB just being an airshow...I guess it's a favorite past time for those who've never been to knock its importance. The fact is it IS a significant ES mission that involves silencing a lot of ELTs, and processing a lot of unclosed flight plans (aka missing aircraft). Without NBB, that airshow would present an enormous burden on Wisconsin Wing. And as far as CAP not showing up in videos and literature, nobody cares. The EAA appreciates us, and goes to great lengths to see to it we're taken care of.


-- NBB '97 & '99

With the comment about squadron commanders not having control of wearing the beret, that was only something I heard. I am searching the regs for it and since your reactions tell me that it is probably not there, I will refer to asking the squadron commander if he has a problem with me wearing it. (I regularly attend meetings at a different squadron then the one I am attached)

I know we all got patches, ribbons, numbers, emails, etc from all the activities we go to, however, how often do you stay in contact with the people you meet through NCSAs or encampment? Most of the time, I bet, it is only for the first month or so than it goes away. Most, if not all, NSCAs have a patch, and you get the NCSA ribbon to go with it. You "earn" those by just graduating the program, it is not something you could lose. And by lose I mean you still graduate and can wear the patch and ribbon, but your beret is taken away from you.

I am a Blue Beret. I am my country and Civil Air Patrol expect me to be. The best of American youth and an example of leadership for today and the future.
Never will I fail that trust.
Therefore, I pledge to perform to the highest degree of professionalism. My dedication to the service of others, rendered with humility and respect, is the outward sign of this pledge.
I am a leader who exhibits the highest level of integrity and is dedicated to the well being of my comrades and community.
I understand that to wear a Blue Beret is a great honor.
Therefore, I forsake not:
My Country;
My Mission;
My Comrades;
My Duty.
I am a Blue Beret. FOLLOW ME.

That is the creed all of us are expected to know. We said it everyday in some fashion or another and I believe it shows why we feel we are so special. I am not saying we are special, that we deserve special treatment, but we do thing that other activities don't (I know there are other activities that do stuff we don't) and deserve credit for it.

One thing that just crossed my mind: every NCSA has a way to distinguish themselves. It seems, though, that most people decide to "pick on" the ones that the most noticeable (i.e. Beret and Hawk). We all earn an NCSA ribbon for going to our select NCSA, but everybody that went to that activity will know at a glance who has been there and who has not. I may not be making sense, but if you think about it, it makes sense. A COS grad can pick out another just by looking at the Mitchell ribbon, a ranger can pick out another ranger, and a beret can pick out a beret. Everyone wants to be noticed for something, that is why we do the stuff we do.

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 04, 2010, 09:12:14 PM
(snippity snip) Everyone wants to be noticed for something, that is why we do the stuff we do.

And that may be part of the problem. People aren't doing it because it needs to be done, or because they enjoy it, but because they want to be noticed w/ some form of special "bling".

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 03, 2010, 07:59:28 PM
I heard this week at NBB that squadron commanders have no say in whether or not you can wear your beret at squadron meetings, but the wing commander has authority to prohibit wear of it at wing activities.

Absolutely wrong!

The NB decision simply says that it does not require any other authorisation to wear it.

You squadron CC say "take off the hat" you take off the hat!  Simple end of story.

If you want to wear it....and barring any other guidance from the chain of command you may do so.

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 04, 2010, 09:12:14 PM
One thing that just crossed my mind: every NCSA has a way to distinguish themselves. It seems, though, that most people decide to "pick on" the ones that the most noticeable (i.e. Beret and Hawk). We all earn an NCSA ribbon for going to our select NCSA, but everybody that went to that activity will know at a glance who has been there and who has not. I may not be making sense, but if you think about it, it makes sense. A COS grad can pick out another just by looking at the Mitchell ribbon, a ranger can pick out another ranger, and a beret can pick out a beret. Everyone wants to be noticed for something, that is why we do the stuff we do.

Yep, they all distinguish themselves. They all (most?) get a patch and a ribbon. Some may give an extra item like a tiny device for a ribbon, or a cord to be worn with blues - most do not. What separated COS and HGA from Hawk and Blue Beret? The items they issue do not destroy uniformity unless you get to within 3 feet. I can spot a Beret or a PAWGer from about a quarter mile (I'm near sighted).

Quote from: Eclipse on August 03, 2010, 08:58:48 PM
"Surveillance" is also a law enforcement function.

The proper term is observation.  What we try to make members understand is that whether it's a crash site or a flight line, if someone chooses to walk past them, they have no recourse but to yell and point.

Anything else is against regulations and in many cases the law.

I would call it "passive situational awareness," sometime the presence is enough to deter the unsavory.

Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on August 04, 2010, 09:12:14 PM
With the comment about squadron commanders not having control of wearing the beret, that was only something I heard. I am searching the regs for it and since your reactions tell me that it is probably not there, I will refer to asking the squadron commander if he has a problem with me wearing it. (I regularly attend meetings at a different squadron then the one I am attached)

This kind of baffles me. You're a cadet officer. Why would a squadron commander not have authority over that?

QuoteI know we all got patches, ribbons, numbers, emails, etc from all the activities we go to, however, how often do you stay in contact with the people you meet through NCSAs or encampment? Most of the time, I bet, it is only for the first month or so than it goes away.

So your 'family' at NBB is so close and had such a hard experience together that you need a beret to remind you of them, but you don't actually talk to them?

QuoteMost, if not all, NSCAs have a patch, and you get the NCSA ribbon to go with it. You "earn" those by just graduating the program, it is not something you could lose. And by lose I mean you still graduate and can wear the patch and ribbon, but your beret is taken away from you.

And you're still wearing the patch and ribbon from NBB. No one is taking that away from you. How can they take the beret away from you if you never really had it. As was pointed out before, military members who wear berets 'loss' it if they transfer out of their unit.

I remember a few years ago they was the big to do about the old NMMA grads wearing the cords. Uniform regs exist for a reason.

If you look at a group of regular military guys, or cops, or medics at one hundred feet, they'll all be wearing the same uniform, same hats mostly, maybe a few doo das between officers, NCO's, and enlistedmen, but more or less the same. It's only when you're within a few feet of an individual that you notice their individual badges, ribbons, medals, or tabs. The only difference between a paramedic and an EMT in my company is whats written on their LoQ patch.

QuoteThat is the creed all of us are expected to know. We said it everyday in some fashion or another and I believe it shows why we feel we are so special. I am not saying we are special, that we deserve special treatment, but we do thing that other activities don't (I know there are other activities that do stuff we don't) and deserve credit for it.

No one is saying you shouldn't feel special. Ya'll did something good, something hard. You do deserve credit, and got it. Badge, ribbon, patch, NCSA credit.

QuoteOne thing that just crossed my mind: every NCSA has a way to distinguish themselves. It seems, though, that most people decide to "pick on" the ones that the most noticeable (i.e. Beret and Hawk). We all earn an NCSA ribbon for going to our select NCSA, but everybody that went to that activity will know at a glance who has been there and who has not. I may not be making sense, but if you think about it, it makes sense. A COS grad can pick out another just by looking at the Mitchell ribbon, a ranger can pick out another ranger, and a beret can pick out a beret. Everyone wants to be noticed for something, that is why we do the stuff we do.

It makes sense, but each activity shouldn't have some special thing different from everyone else. Read someone's rack, or check our their patch.

I am against CAP wearing berets.  I have outlined that in the past.  However, that being said, if one of my cadets attended Blue Beret and is authorized to wear the beret, I would not make "my" cadets take them off to make an example out of them.  I don't think that is fair to the cadets if all of their compadres are wearing them upon graduation from the course.  But I would support axing the berets all together.

Can Blue Berets grads wear them in CAWG?

Rob: suggest that you ask Super Cadet #2.

You know, I haven't seen any response from anybody in WIWG.

Well, allow me to correct that. Due to my wonderful College experience, I float in and out of WIWG, and I always make it up for EAA.

Let me speaketh facts, not NBB myths.

There are 4 posts run during EAA.

Fond Du Lac Base at KFLD, Seaplane Base at 96WI, Appleton Base at KATW and Beret Base at KOSH.

With the exception of Beret, all the bases are run by Wisconsin Wing personnel. The other bases are usually undermanned, and have to work as hard (if not harder), without nice barracks to sleep in, and no beret.

And the Beret is mocked to no end in Wisconsin. Why shouldn't we? Their comm staff just absolutely loves the use of "Over and Out." When off duty, they act like they own the place.

There is only one squadron in WI in which Berets are commonly worn by Seniors. That squadron's ground teams haven't been called to play in ages, after a particular incident in which they decided to show up on a missing person search wearing berets. Their gung ho mindset and refusal to follow instructions of the GTLs from another squadron led to an incident, and their unofficial ban.

Cadets in WI who wear their berets, except in the above squadron, are usually told to knock it off as soon as they even dream of wearing after the event.

Seniors who attend Beret the NCSA are treated as traitors to the wing.

Wisconsin Wing has operational authority over all personnel at Blue Beret, and Incident Command staff is all WIWG as well. Any ELT heard which is not on the ground at Whittman field is located and silenced by WI.

The Beret is stupid. The Beret isn't "earned." The Beret mindset gets people injured.

Now, if CAP had something like "Airborne Ground Teams" that would warrant the wear of a Beret. Not sitting on a flight line, writing down tail numbers.

The Blue Beret has been around since I was a cadet many years ago and still have not figured out why. Cadets go to Oshkosh park airplanes and are now "special ops".....they probably should go away. As far as the mind set of cadets arguing with a senior officer about uniform regs....that I blame on senior leadership. Of course seniors do it as well. On that note ...follow the regs or move on. You want "special ops" looking items ....join the service and apply for it. You want polos and beards join the volunteer fire dept. I have a uniform code in my work place and we follow or you can be subjected to corrective action including termination. We have become a society of whinny people in America. Yes we are a volunteer organization, but with a very noble history and purpose. My son is in the Young Marine program and they do not tolerate any uniform violations or disrespect whatsoever.

Quote from: C-150 on August 05, 2010, 01:12:45 AM
The Blue Beret has been around since I was a cadet many years ago and still have not figured out why. Cadets go to Oshkosh park airplanes and are now "special ops".....they probably should go away. As far as the mind set of cadets arguing with a senior officer about uniform regs....that I blame on senior leadership. Of course seniors do it as well. On that note ...follow the regs or move on. You want "special ops" looking items ....join the service and apply for it. You want polos and beards join the volunteer fire dept. I have a uniform code in my work place and we follow or you can be subjected to corrective action including termination. We have become a society of whinny people in America. Yes we are a volunteer organization, but with a very noble history and purpose. My son is in the Young Marine program and they do not tolerate any uniform violations or disrespect whatsoever.

But we're not the Young Marines.

C-150: The wearing of a beard has no bearing whatsoever on CAP's ability to prosecute any of its missions. Beards may be worn in any CAP-distinctive uniform save the TPU. Polos are authorized by CAPM 39-1. You have just insulted 99% of Senior Members by saying what you just said about the polo shirt.

As for the "Young Marines," I didn't know that the Marines liked bling on their uniforms, let alone full sized medals on their BDUs. And the chest full of ribbons that they wear is enough to make any CAP-hater laugh. Besides, have you ever seen a Young Marine out on a SAR mission, or Disaster Relief mission? Even the Boy Scouts are there on DR missions.

The CAP Cadet Program, problems and all, is still far superior to anything else out on the market, and personally, I believe the problems in the Cadet Program better prepare one for the rigors of Real Life. The CAP Cadet Program taught me respect, discipline AND radio direction finding. I am grateful for the experience that the Cadet Program gave me, and will strongly recommend to my own children to join it someday.

I would not be where I am today if it were not for CAP.

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on August 05, 2010, 12:05:41 AM
You know, I haven't seen any response from anybody in WIWG.

Well, allow me to correct that. Due to my wonderful College experience, I float in and out of WIWG, and I always make it up for EAA.

Let me speaketh facts, not NBB myths.

There are 4 posts run during EAA.

Fond Du Lac Base at KFLD, Seaplane Base at 96WI, Appleton Base at KATW and Beret Base at KOSH.

With the exception of Beret, all the bases are run by Wisconsin Wing personnel. The other bases are usually undermanned, and have to work as hard (if not harder), without nice barracks to sleep in, and no beret.

And the Beret is mocked to no end in Wisconsin. Why shouldn't we? Their comm staff just absolutely loves the use of "Over and Out." When off duty, they act like they own the place.

There is only one squadron in WI in which Berets are commonly worn by Seniors. That squadron's ground teams haven't been called to play in ages, after a particular incident in which they decided to show up on a missing person search wearing berets. Their gung ho mindset and refusal to follow instructions of the GTLs from another squadron led to an incident, and their unofficial ban.

Cadets in WI who wear their berets, except in the above squadron, are usually told to knock it off as soon as they even dream of wearing after the event.

Seniors who attend Beret the NCSA are treated as traitors to the wing.

Wisconsin Wing has operational authority over all personnel at Blue Beret, and Incident Command staff is all WIWG as well. Any ELT heard which is not on the ground at Whittman field is located and silenced by WI.

The Beret is stupid. The Beret isn't "earned." The Beret mindset gets people injured.

Now, if CAP had something like "Airborne Ground Teams" that would warrant the wear of a Beret. Not sitting on a flight line, writing down tail numbers.

Wrong...national has operation control over the personnel at blue beret.... please cite where the authority comes from (considering beret is an air force mission with an assigned air force mission number, national owns the property on whittman with a 99 year lease)

Please cite that the incident command staff is WI wing.....considering i just returned from NBB and the IC staff was Lt. Col. Smally of Texas wing, Col Hanson of Kansas and Maj. Pace of Louisiana plus several others.

Your information is wrong and formed from those who think becasue it happens inside that state everything about it should be yours.

Young Marines, huh?
(http://i34.tinypic.com/2ik4jd3.jpg)
In my time in Navy and Air Force JROTC, as well as Civil Air Patrol's Cadet Program, I have never, repeat never been authorized to wear ribbons on my BDUs. How's that for showing off?
(P.S. We made sure our rolled sleeves had the proper length, too ;))
JROTC is an outstanding program, but it really does focus on making better citizens- not nearly as military-centric as a proper CAP Cadet or Composite squadron in many aspects such as uniform wear and discipline, more military life skills that can directly apply to a civilian career and life. Not that my retired instructors would let a cadet walk around looking horrible, just much different than my CAP experience. The few Army JROTC units I've dealt with let cadets wear the uniform pretty much anywhere that's not anti-American.
The UNNSC (Sea Cadets) insulted my Navy JROTC program in front of our retired E-9 Master Chief, because NJROTC (until next year) does not wear the same uniforms as the Real Navy (i.e. the Sea Cadets were authorized dungarees, while we had khakis). This was during a recruiting pitch so that they could replace NJROTC at the high school due to funding issues.

Civil Air Patrol has been the most positive program I have dealt with, with the most professionalism and discipline. I look forward to the three years I have left, as I feel they will be the best years of my cadet life- and to an extent, my life, period.

Quote from: C-150 on August 05, 2010, 01:12:45 AM
The Blue Beret has been around since I was a cadet many years ago and still have not figured out why. Cadets go to Oshkosh park airplanes and are now "special ops".....

I don't see it. 

A Beret is a Beret.  It signifies that they went to Oshkosh to park airplanes.  Any other assumption toward its meaning is incorrect.

Any other meaning than that is given (incorrectly) by you.

Yes, each base has a commander, but if you look at the directives for the mission, the ICP is co-located with Appleton Base, and the overall Incident Commander is from Wisconsin Wing.

Sure, Nat'l may have own the NBB Barracks, but that doesn't mean that Beret is the ICP.

From a NCSA standpoint, yes Beret is in charge of itself, but in the status as an Air Force Assigned Mission, Wisconsin is in charge, as the whole thing is in our backyard.

Not to mention that the rules are changed slightly for the EAA mission.

When an aircraft is overdue, Green Bay FSS contacts the WIWG IC, who disseminates the information to each of the bases. If an ELT is heard away from KOSH, WIWG is activated to silence it. Not Beret.

If you had a copy of the Directives, you could check that, however I'm not going to post FOUO information on CAPTalk. If you go next year, try to get a glimpse at it. Also, tell the Comm staff to knock it off with the improper codeword use. It drives all of us insane.

@DakRadz: MAKE IT GO AWAY!! MY EYES, THEY BLEED!!

To keep in line with the topic itself... I love wearing the beret at AFJROTC, but it's really just a hard-kewl thing. My instructors came up with it to reward the Drill (and possibly Color Guard, not sure) Team for our dedication with putting in at least 3 days a week of practice, staying abnormally late to practice, and earning 3 trophies at our very first ever drill meet. So a lot is expected to earn that beret compared to the normal JROTC cadet (who only has to come to class, wear uni once a week, and pass tests).
Despite all this, I led the drill team to 3 trophies without even thinking about a beret, and could do so again- it's a nice reward, but I wouldn't mind having it taken simply because it isn't standard in the JROTC program (though many use it, no official regs/Holms Center action- sound familiar??) and it in no way affects the performance of my team- unless the taking of the beret is done in the form of punishment, which affects morale.

Tell seniors... Whatever you deem appropriate- I won't give advice on correcting/advising/etc. my superiors.

Tell cadets that berets are not authorized, congratulations on completing an exceptionally hard week for someone your age, and I appreciate your maturity in maintaining squadron uniformity (by wearing BDU cap/other official 39-1 headgear) as an obvious leader and role model of cadets. Any cadet should accept this and be proud of their skills, not their blingage.

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on August 05, 2010, 02:28:02 AMAlso, tell the Comm staff to knock it off with the improper codeword use. It drives all of us insane.

All cadets and seniors received BCUT upon arrival (most of them had it or ACUT before they came but everyone received it anyway). One thing that was made expressly clear was the proper use of pro words. All my times on Comm and other times listening to the radios, I never heard or uttered the words "Over and Out" or "Roger WilCo" etc. All the cadets and seniors there maintained proper etiquette on the radio. 

The Young Marines with ribbons on the BDU are not showing off. The USMC has authorized this for special occasions only. The reason being is the costs of supplying each Young Marine with dress uniforms. I can assure you that the Marine League sees to it that USMC policy on wear of the uniform is followed to the letter. Also yes YM units have been involved with real world operations. The unit here assists with disaster relief and works very closely with the Marine Reserve Unit during their UTA times. So it is not just wear a uniform and show up thing. They must meet standards for promotion. They have written tests and and oral board of adult USMC leaders to be considered for promotion.  People on here should be working for the media or serving in Congress. Far to often someone says something and it gets blown way out of context. Not once did I say anything negative about the CAP cadet program. I was a cadet and my son wants to join in addition to being a Young Marine. The leadership training is better with Young Marines I think, but the other skills such as AE from CAP are without compare. Not even AFJROTC comes close to CAP in this area. However, far too many in CAP want to go off in wild directions. Just take a look at this site. It is a sampling of the overall thought. Uniform violations, uniform arguments, should be more military, should be more EMS like......I am simply saying the CAP was here long before we were. When I joined I was told what the organization was and accepted that and have serve proudly. But today everyone not just CAP but our whole society wants to be spoon feed. Far too many organizations and companies are constantly in total confusion because someone is unhappy. In my dept. we have officers  complaining all of the time. Our chief recently redeployed some of the shifts. My God you have the world was ending according to some the officers. My solution....do your job as it is outlined and required or move on.

@CAPC/officer125: Were you operating on TAC or the Repeater? Because if you were listening to the Repeater, you would have heard the improper codeword use frequently.

There was one instance when we had an overdue, and I was out on the flightline with a Mobile VHF monitoring the Repeater, and a a handheld VHF talking to base. We heard the overdue, and saw the number in our log on the Flightline. Before the entire conversation announcing our new Overdue was complete, I radioed back to base that we had it. Base radioed to the Appleton ICP "We have it in our log" and then Beret said "we have it in our log" thinking that we were using some sort of new proword they never heard of before. As a result of Beret's miscommunication, I had to go do an entire Ramp Check for the aircraft.

That is just one example. I am sure that there are people at Beret who know what they are doing, and I am certain that there are people who have no idea what is going on up at Beret. Sadly, I've only encountered the latter in my CAP career.

C-150

Let's keep the Young Marines out of this, okay? They are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 05, 2010, 07:25:21 PM
C-150

Let's keep the Young Marines out of this, okay? They are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I was responding to a comment made about their ribbons. Not bringing YM into the discussion. I am only educating someone who had no clue to the facts.

Quote from: C-150 on August 05, 2010, 07:40:28 PM

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 05, 2010, 07:25:21 PM
C-150

Let's keep the Young Marines out of this, okay? They are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I was responding to a comment made about their ribbons. Not bringing YM into the discussion. I am only educating someone who had no clue to the facts.

Based on how DakRadz posts, I think he was joking around about the showing off.

Seriously though, not relevant.

I thought Mike was the moderator here.

Mike please lock this thread.
I think cadets on this board should read more and POST LESS!!!
HGJunkie you are out of line.

I had a long post written up, but It timed out before I could click send. 

Mission - The National Blue Beret activity is a single base of many that operates durring the EAA airventure event.  when I was chief of Emegency services for NBB I was titled as an Operations Chief, and I worked under the Wisconsin Wing IC using the Area Command model. 
more to follow when I have time

Quote from: Senior on August 05, 2010, 08:39:43 PM
Mike please lock this thread.
I think cadets on this board should read more and POST LESS!!!
HGJunkie you are out of line.

Um, Why?

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 05, 2010, 09:07:31 PM

Quote from: Senior on August 05, 2010, 08:39:43 PM
Mike please lock this thread.
I think cadets on this board should read more and POST LESS!!!
HGJunkie you are out of line.

Um, Why?

Everyone chill. It's a civil discussion.

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on August 05, 2010, 07:24:23 PM
@CAPC/officer125: Were you operating on TAC or the Repeater? Because if you were listening to the Repeater, you would have heard the improper codeword use frequently.

There was one instance when we had an overdue, and I was out on the flightline with a Mobile VHF monitoring the Repeater, and a a handheld VHF talking to base. We heard the overdue, and saw the number in our log on the Flightline. Before the entire conversation announcing our new Overdue was complete, I radioed back to base that we had it. Base radioed to the Appleton ICP "We have it in our log" and then Beret said "we have it in our log" thinking that we were using some sort of new proword they never heard of before. As a result of Beret's miscommunication, I had to go do an entire Ramp Check for the aircraft.

That is just one example. I am sure that there are people at Beret who know what they are doing, and I am certain that there are people who have no idea what is going on up at Beret. Sadly, I've only encountered the latter in my CAP career.

I am unsure of what we used. We had a repeater and "bricks" and those went out whenever people were off compound. There were several flight TAC officers that had ISRs that they distributed to their staff and used as communication between each other on the flight line to keep traffic on the "bricks" down. As far as the use of pro words, I am sorry you heard incorrect usage and miscommunication, but that is something we had to deal with to as well. I am pretty sure the "ES officer" (their title for the activity) behind the cadet that was running the radios at that moment in time slapped them upside the head and attempted to correct it. I cannot speak on behalf of everyone there, but I did my best to sound professional at all time when on the radio (albeit for only a couple hours).

What everyone should find most concerning here is not the minutia of hats or radio chatter, but the fact that a marquee activity of CAP
has such a clear disconnect between perception and reality not only in "participants vs. onlookers", but between participants themselves, and in something so basic as who is in control of the activity.

Those of us on the outside with a stuck craw only see the arrogance of the bad actors, we don't encounter the quiet professionalism of the majority.

Why? Because they are quiet and professional.

However that doesn't change the fact that we have to deal with that vocal minority of goobers who make it difficult for everyone. 

Quote from: Senior on August 05, 2010, 08:39:43 PM
Mike please lock this thread.
I think cadets on this board should read more and POST LESS!!!
HGJunkie you are out of line.

Silly me.......here I am thinking your post is out of line

Quote from: leeyo32 on August 06, 2010, 08:30:37 AM

Quote from: Senior on August 05, 2010, 08:39:43 PM
Mike please lock this thread.
I think cadets on this board should read more and POST LESS!!!
HGJunkie you are out of line.

Silly me.......here I am thinking your post is out of line

Come on folks! I didn't find HGJunkie being disrespectful. Maybe in need of more tact, but not disrespectful. Lets just drop it here, and discuss the silly topic rather than this. 

The "anti-cadet" attitude is not in keeping with the Core Values and missions of the Civil Air Patrol.

In all honesty, any such comparisons...USCGAux, Salvation Army, Young Marines, Boy Scouts and the whole spectrum of other organizations in existance with remotely similar missions, or semblence of missions, to CAP are their own distinct organization.

I have always, and many can confirm, been suspect of people attempting to "graft" policy from these mutual aid organizations onto CAP.  Many times, what works for them does not mean it would necessarily work for CAP.

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 06, 2010, 04:09:15 PM
The "anti-cadet" attitude is not in keeping with the Core Values and missions of the Civil Air Patrol.

In all honesty, any such comparisons...USCGAux, Salvation Army, Young Marines, Boy Scouts and the whole spectrum of other organizations in existance with remotely similar missions, or semblence of missions, to CAP are their own distinct organization.

I have always, and many can confirm, been suspect of people attempting to "graft" policy from these mutual aid organizations onto CAP.  Many times, what works for them does not mean it would necessarily work for CAP.

Silence, I outrank you.  >:D

And I respect those who can do their job. And the people who are more interested in the job at hand don't care about a stupid hat, which, frankly doesn't keep the sun out of one's eyes.

I would be all for a NBB ball cap (or, I guess... AirVenture CAP ballcap).

I, sadly, know of quite a few people who would go to NBB just for the Beret. I, myself, would love to be able to spend a week up at Oshkosh without having to worry about accommodations. But the elitist mentality of a few needs to be nipped in the bud, all for the good of CAP.

As for the person who said that the Cadets are out of line... Cadets make up a huge chunk of GSAR, and can free up some Seniors to perform aircrew tasks, or Incident Command tasks who otherwise might have been GTMs. They are as important to ES as any Senior.

If a Cadet has an idea about how to make ES better, I'm willing to hear them out.

Once again, this is a WEBFORUM, not a weekly meeting. This is a place to share ideas, and gripe.

And Cadets need to share ideas and gripe as much as we Seniors have to.

Besides, CadetStuff is weak in the ES area.

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on August 07, 2010, 12:22:39 AM
And I respect those who can do their job.

snip

I, sadly, know of quite a few people who would go to NBB just for the Beret. I, myself, would love to be able to spend a week up at Oshkosh without having to worry about accommodations. But the elitist mentality of a few needs to be nipped in the bud, all for the good of CAP.

Sir, I agree with the first statement out of simple common sense.

The second paragraph is fairly accurate- Here's an exchange from encampment between myself and a NBB graduate-

NBB- So what NCSAs do you plan to apply for next year, cadet?
Me- Well sir, I was thinking NESA and COS.
NBB- Pfft. Why NESA? Go to NBB, you get GTM3 qualified and a beret too.

Quote
As for the person who said that the Cadets are out of line...
Snippity

That particular remark was made by a SM in reference to a specific comment a cadet made- the SM wasn't talking about cadets in general, just that one incident.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 06, 2010, 10:54:00 PM

Quote from: Major Carrales on August 06, 2010, 04:09:15 PM
The "anti-cadet" attitude is not in keeping with the Core Values and missions of the Civil Air Patrol.

In all honesty, any such comparisons...USCGAux, Salvation Army, Young Marines, Boy Scouts and the whole spectrum of other organizations in existence with remotely similar missions, or semblance of missions, to CAP are their own distinct organization.

I have always, and many can confirm, been suspect of people attempting to "graft" policy from these mutual aid organizations onto CAP.  Many times, what works for them does not mean it would necessarily work for CAP.

Silence, I outrank you.  >:D

At this time all that is known is that I am a Major and you, based on your anonymity and pen-name, are two letters away from being a famous singer or breakfast sausage.  Sorry, but while anonymity has its benefits, it also has its faults.

;)  Just kidding.

I'm not for the Beret being authorized, but i'm not against it either. However, I have to throw up the BS flag on the fact that it doesn't provide element protection. It can't be much worse that the Flight Cap, and for the sun in your eyes, it's nothing sunscreen and sunglasses can't cure.

Just sayin'.  :-X

I have yet to understand how so many can miss the point of what is said. Not everyone, but a few is all it takes to create total confusion. Just another sign of the times I guess.

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 07, 2010, 02:08:04 AM
I'm not for the Beret being authorized, but i'm not against it either. However, I have to throw up the BS flag on the fact that it doesn't provide element protection. It can't be much worse that the Flight Cap, and for the sun in your eyes, it's nothing sunscreen and sunglasses can't cure.

Just sayin'.  :-X

Consider, young Padawan, that in our wonderful program, the beret is only authorized (at NBB, and) with the BDU uniform.

What styles of headgear do we wear with the BDU? Are they generally element-protective? BDU ballcap, BDU cap- rather a bit more than a beret.

Quote from: DakRadz on August 07, 2010, 02:27:14 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 07, 2010, 02:08:04 AM
I'm not for the Beret being authorized, but i'm not against it either. However, I have to throw up the BS flag on the fact that it doesn't provide element protection. It can't be much worse that the Flight Cap, and for the sun in your eyes, it's nothing sunscreen and sunglasses can't cure.

Just sayin'.  :-X

Consider, young Padawan, that in our wonderful program, the beret is only authorized (at NBB, and) with the BDU uniform.

What styles of headgear do we wear with the BDU? Are they generally element-protective? BDU ballcap, BDU cap- rather a bit more than a beret.

I get your point. I was just throwing it out there that the sun in your face could be an easy fix.

Quote from: Senior on August 05, 2010, 08:39:43 PM
Mike please lock this thread.
I think cadets on this board should read more and POST LESS!!!
HGJunkie you are out of line.

As Warren Oates said in Stripes, "Lighten up, Francis!!!"

The cadet made a politely worded observation/request that was this turning into a broad based uniform thread (as opposed to one narrowly focused on the berets ;D)..a uniform thread veering into a discussion of the Young Marine uniform, not even the CAP uniform.

He was respectful in his tone, and does not deserve a public correction over this, which is much ado about nothing.

Perhaps in future a PM would be a better means of raising an issue like this (though I still feel this one is a non-issue).

Quote from: DakRadz on August 07, 2010, 02:27:14 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 07, 2010, 02:08:04 AM
I'm not for the Beret being authorized, but i'm not against it either. However, I have to throw up the BS flag on the fact that it doesn't provide element protection. It can't be much worse that the Flight Cap, and for the sun in your eyes, it's nothing sunscreen and sunglasses can't cure.

Just sayin'.  :-X

Consider, young Padawan, that in our wonderful program, the beret is only authorized (at NBB, and) with the BDU uniform.

What styles of headgear do we wear with the BDU? Are they generally element-protective? BDU ballcap, BDU cap- rather a bit more than a beret.

but not as much as a boonie...

maybe functionality isn't the only part of the equation here..

Quote from: tsrup on August 07, 2010, 06:03:02 AM

Quote from: DakRadz on August 07, 2010, 02:27:14 AM

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 07, 2010, 02:08:04 AM
I'm not for the Beret being authorized, but i'm not against it either. However, I have to throw up the BS flag on the fact that it doesn't provide element protection. It can't be much worse that the Flight Cap, and for the sun in your eyes, it's nothing sunscreen and sunglasses can't cure.

Just sayin'.  :-X

Consider, young Padawan, that in our wonderful program, the beret is only authorized (at NBB, and) with the BDU uniform.

What styles of headgear do we wear with the BDU? Are they generally element-protective? BDU ballcap, BDU cap- rather a bit more than a beret.

but not as much as a boonie...

maybe functionality isn't the only part of the equation here..

Now I wouldn't be against the Boonie being authorized for hot sunny days at all. :angel:

Pictures are worth thousands of words.  Here is the entirety of the problem.

Most members (especially younger cadets) wearing a beret think they look like this:
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rV7S18znF8Y/0.jpg)

When in fact most look like this gentleman:
(http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/philip-seymour-hoffman-2009-oscars-022209-lg-1094524.jpg)

And the only "beret-cred" they have comes from this:
(http://www.freewebs.com/greateuropeantroops/Green%20Beret%20C1_insert%20cd.jpg)

I'd like to give my 2 cents...

If anyone has seen my facebook, I am already looking forward to going to Blue Beret 2011. One reason I am going is to advance my GTM training. Another reason is to earn the Blue Beret. There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn a beret, which shows the elite training that you endured.

I also think that National HQ should keep their decision to allow the Blue Beret. NBB, is a elite training for GES, and that beret shows that the said person that wears it, endured that training.

I'd also like to point out a quote from blueberet.org (http://"http://www.blueberet.org)...

The person makes the beret...The beret does not make the person.

That mean that the beret does not mean anything special just because you put it on, but when you earn the beret, it symbolizes the extensive training that you went through.

'nuff said.

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM...the elite training that you endured.

Please, enlighten us as to what makes NBB training "elite"...

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
If anyone has seen my facebook, I am already looking forward to going to Blue Beret 2011. One reason I am going is to advance my GTM training. Another reason is to earn the Blue Beret. There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn a beret, which shows the elite training that you endured.

I also think that National HQ should keep their decision to allow the Blue Beret. NBB, is a elite training for GES, and that beret shows that the said person that wears it, endured that training.

I'd also like to point out a quote from blueberet.org (http://"http://www.blueberet.org)...

The person makes the beret...The beret does not make the person.

That mean that the beret does not mean anything special just because you put it on, but when you earn the beret, it symbolizes the extensive training that you went through.

'nuff said.

Sergeant, a week of training doesn't make you 'elite.' It does not. Months of training, years of training and experience make you 'elite.' Your apparent opinions and and views of NBB is why many people have such a problem with the beret.

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
One reason I am going is to advance my GTM training. Another reason is to earn the Blue Beret. There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn a beret, which shows the elite training that you endured.

Go to NESA and get the GTM training that sets the standard for CAP.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 07, 2010, 04:50:41 PM
Pictures are worth thousands of words.  Here is the entirety of the problem.

Most members (especially younger cadets) wearing a beret think they look like this:
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rV7S18znF8Y/0.jpg)

When in fact most look like this gentleman:
(http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/philip-seymour-hoffman-2009-oscars-022209-lg-1094524.jpg)

And the only "beret-cred" they have comes from this:
(http://www.freewebs.com/greateuropeantroops/Green%20Beret%20C1_insert%20cd.jpg)

He shoots, he SCORES!   :clap: :clap: :clap:

Quote from: JThemann on August 07, 2010, 05:59:12 PM

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
If anyone has seen my facebook, I am already looking forward to going to Blue Beret 2011. One reason I am going is to advance my GTM training. Another reason is to earn the Blue Beret. There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn a beret, which shows the elite training that you endured.

I also think that National HQ should keep their decision to allow the Blue Beret. NBB, is a elite training for GES, and that beret shows that the said person that wears it, endured that training.

I'd also like to point out a quote from blueberet.org (http://"http://www.blueberet.org)...

The person makes the beret...The beret does not make the person.

That mean that the beret does not mean anything special just because you put it on, but when you earn the beret, it symbolizes the extensive training that you went through.

'nuff said.

Sergeant, a week of training doesn't make you 'elite.' It does not. Months of training, years of training and experience make you 'elite.' Your apparent opinions and and views of NBB is why many people have such a problem with the beret.

2 weeks.

QuotePresently blue beret and the Pennsylvania Wing Ranger School at Hawk Mountain are the only two specialized ranger-type schools left in Civil Air Patrol.

Ranger based schools are more challenging than most other GES schools, maybe with the exception of NESA, correct me if I am wrong.

Can you enlighten me to how my opinions are bad or ignorant...
...just because you do not agree with my opinions on something does mean you have to turn them into something incorrect and unjustified.

Also, let me remind you that I said the training was elite, or in better words, advanced. I never said it made the person elite. That is twisting my words.

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 07:33:13 PM

Quote from: JThemann on August 07, 2010, 05:59:12 PM

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
If anyone has seen my facebook, I am already looking forward to going to Blue Beret 2011. One reason I am going is to advance my GTM training. Another reason is to earn the Blue Beret. There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn a beret, which shows the elite training that you endured.

I also think that National HQ should keep their decision to allow the Blue Beret. NBB, is a elite training for GES, and that beret shows that the said person that wears it, endured that training.

I'd also like to point out a quote from blueberet.org (http://"http://www.blueberet.org)...

The person makes the beret...The beret does not make the person.

That mean that the beret does not mean anything special just because you put it on, but when you earn the beret, it symbolizes the extensive training that you went through.

'nuff said.

Sergeant, a week of training doesn't make you 'elite.' It does not. Months of training, years of training and experience make you 'elite.' Your apparent opinions and and views of NBB is why many people have such a problem with the beret.

2 weeks.

QuotePresently blue beret and the Pennsylvania Wing Ranger School at Hawk Mountain are the only two specialized ranger-type schools left in Civil Air Patrol.

Ranger based schools are more challenging than most other GES schools, maybe with the exception of NESA, correct me if I am wrong.

Can you enlighten me to how my opinions are bad or ignorant...
...just because you do not agree with my opinions on something does mean you have to turn them into something incorrect and unjustified.

Also, let me remind you that I said the training was elite, or in better words, advanced. I never said it made the person elite. That is twisting my words.

From wiki

QuoteIn sociology as in general usage, the elite is a hypothetical group of relatively small size, that is dominant within a large society, having a privileged status perceived as being envied by others of a lower line of order.

NBB, as mentioned previously in this thread, is a week of training and a week of operational mode.

What is, in the CAP context, a 'Ranger based school?' Also, what is 'GES School?'

Your opinions are not bad, or ignorant, but a little misinformed. As I mentioned before, there's really no such thing as 'elite' training. And, also as was mentioned before, there's other devices that are standard across every NCSA. Patch on the BDU's, ribbon on the service dress, and badges on every uniform.

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
If anyone has seen my facebook, I am already looking forward to going to Blue Beret 2011. One reason I am going is to advance my GTM training.

Great! But this isn't the activity for that, NESA is.

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
Another reason is to earn the Blue Beret.

I thought the point of the activity was to participate in Air Venture?

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn a beret, which shows the elite training that you endured.

Personal reaction: LOL. As others stated, there is nothing elite about the training, and if that's your opinion, then you already are on course to be laughed at and considered to be "one of those" cadets.

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
I also think that National HQ should keep their decision to allow the Blue Beret. NBB, is a elite training for GES, and that beret shows that the said person that wears it, endured that training.

You get the ribbon and the patch - just like all other activities. I went to Honor Guard Academy, which gives people a cord to wear. I didn't go for a stupid silver cord, I went to learn how to twirl rifles and HG on a bigger scale. Anyone who goes for a cord I'd laugh at.

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
That mean that the beret does not mean anything special just because you put it on, but when you earn the beret, it symbolizes the extensive training that you went through.

What extensive training? 1 week? Most GTM3s put in more by the time they are qualified.

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
'nuff said.

Yes, please.

If you want elite, go to NFA- the wings look better, and the small group of pilots are generally fairly powerful over the rest of us here on the BDB (Big Dirt Ball). >:D

Quote from: JThemann on August 07, 2010, 05:59:12 PM

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
I also think that National HQ should keep their decision to allow the Blue Beret. NBB, is a elite training for GES, and that beret shows that the said person that wears it, endured that training.

~snippet~

That mean that the beret does not mean anything special just because you put it on, but when you earn the beret, it symbolizes the extensive training that you went through.

'nuff said.

Sergeant, a week of training doesn't make you 'elite.' It does not. Months of training, years of training and experience make you 'elite.' Your apparent opinions and and views of NBB is why many people have such a problem with the beret.

Really, I'm not sure that a GES school (if that exists, cause I'm not sure that correctly describes NBB) is any good for cadets... We go to a specialized school to learn General ES??? Hmmm... No thanks.

Extensive training? Okay, so where is the special recognition for all encampment staff? They have at least what adds up to a week's time in RST (between reading emails, phone conferences, and actual face-time meetings), then a week of encampment. So when do their swagger sticks arrive from Vanguard?

Months of intensive training, the likes of which are not truly found in a cadet program, are what make you elite.

One NCSA does not elite make (or in our case, even resemble). If you've noticed, for flying you have to go twice to solo. For COS, you must go twice at certain ranks to be Falcon Flight. The list goes on... But saying that by directing airplanes correctly and (according to a previous poster) not even completing all requirements/tasks for claimed GTM training is elite? Go tell the AD RM that.

[emphasis]
You want to be an elite cadet? Study hard, promote on time, and hone your leadership abilities- for cadet officers are the true small and in power group in the Cadet Program.
[/emphasis]
(Not demeaning SMs in any way)

I'd also like to throw in my two cents, and I know a bunch of people are gonna argue and complain with me.

I just came home from NBB 2010 and to me, The Beret is more than just a piece of "Bling". I couldn't care less how cool I looked with the Blue Beret on. To me, The blue beret is a nothing more than a hat, however the St. Alban's Cross that is on the Flash of the Beret is what drives me to help others. Its a symbol of self-sacrifice and and A Blue Beret will do for his or her cadet next to them.

I dont consider in any way NBB training to be "elite" nor are Blue Berets "Elite" among the CAP community. For those who complain that the Beret is a stupid reward for just two weeks of training, You will never understand what the Blue Beret means to us that have gone.

I personally never had attitude problems before Blue Beret, and I honestly dont think a hat will ever change it. It's unfortunate that a few bad apples spoiled the entire bushel. Personally, Ive never met a blue Beret that had a Cocky or "rambo" attitude because they have a Beret.

At the end of the day, you can have whatever opinion you wish about the Beret, But I am proud to have earned my Beret, and It will always remind me of the Family that I gained at National Blue Beret.

I was basically trying to defend the NBB in the first place. For those who think it is a bad program, then they don't know what they are talking about.

Don't compare me with those "bad apples" that try to be "Rambo" like because they have a beret. I am a Sergeant, I am more mature than that. I was just simply stating that the beret is a nice edition, I think it is pretty cool. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Or should you bash me for saying that statement?

The training, in a sense is not elite, that was a bad word to use, because even after a corrected myself, SM's continue to complain about that word I used.

Never would find myself saying this to Senior Member's, but some need to grow up.

>:(

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 12:54:18 AM
I was basically trying to defend the NBB in the first place. For those who think it is a bad program, then they don't know what they are talking about.

Don't compare me with those "bad apples" that try to be "Rambo" like because they have a beret. I am a Sergeant, I am more mature than that. I was just simply stating that the beret is a nice edition, I think it is pretty cool. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Or should you bash me for saying that statement?

The training, in a sense is not elite, that was a bad word to use, because even after a corrected myself, SM's continue to complain about that word I used.

Never would find myself saying this to Senior Member's, but some need to grow up.

1) stating that you have maturity does not mean you do
2) Never reprimand a SM, I dont care if thier oakleaf is upside-down its still an oakleaf.

Quote from: Daniel L on August 08, 2010, 01:02:47 AM

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 12:54:18 AM
I was basically trying to defend the NBB in the first place. For those who think it is a bad program, then they don't know what they are talking about.

Don't compare me with those "bad apples" that try to be "Rambo" like because they have a beret. I am a Sergeant, I am more mature than that. I was just simply stating that the beret is a nice edition, I think it is pretty cool. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Or should you bash me for saying that statement?

The training, in a sense is not elite, that was a bad word to use, because even after a corrected myself, SM's continue to complain about that word I used.

Never would find myself saying this to Senior Member's, but some need to grow up.

1) stating that you have maturity does not mean you do
2) Never reprimand a SM, I dont care if thier oakleaf is upside-down its still an oakleaf.

1) Not trying to be above and over myself, but I am more mature to think I am elite for have a beret. Just letting people know that, so they don't confuse me for a Cadet who is just in CAP to be a complete retard.

2) Not reprimanding a SM, just telling them to back off in a sense.

I never was trying to compare anyone to anything. I know that those who have not attended Blue Beret will never understand that symbolism of the Blue Beret.

I'd like to quote something that one of the Tac Officer's from this year's NBB just said to me, that should be the message that all people must understand.

" I have seen the cadets that believe that the beret makes the person, when in fact the person makes the beret. That little blue felt hat is a ...badge just like every other uniform item. Nothing more, nothing less. It is the spirit inside the one wearing it that should shine bright. Your cross represents everything you were taught. Remember that always and you will be fine. Hold all with respect and get the job done. That is your mission, but you must choose how you complete it. Which path will you choose?"

I believe that this is the ideals that Every Blue Beret should have. It's not just another activity. It's something a lot more, but people dont recognize that

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 12:54:18 AM
I was basically trying to defend the NBB in the first place. For those who think it is a bad program, then they don't know what they are talking about.

Don't compare me with those "bad apples" that try to be "Rambo" like because they have a beret. I am a Sergeant, I am more mature than that. I was just simply stating that the beret is a nice edition, I think it is pretty cool. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Or should you bash me for saying that statement?

The training, in a sense is not elite, that was a bad word to use, because even after a corrected myself, SM's continue to complain about that word I used.

Never would find myself saying this to Senior Member's, but some need to grow up.

>:(

No one was trying to bash  you.

Why do you feel you must defend a program you haven't attended? You're sig file says that you're a GTM3 Trainee. Perhaps you should complete your training first before you start to judge who and who doesn't know what they're talking about?

Lighten up Sergeant, no one is attacking you, or NBB. We're discussing the possible negative implications and issues around allowing cadets to wear the beret outside of NBB, as well as the regulatory issues around it.

You may be more mature then thinking a beret makes you elite, but people will form opinions on you based on other ways you present yourself.

Also, 'retard' is a powerful and offensive word to a lot of people....lets say people who have a mentally retarded aunt or something.

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 01:09:23 AM
I never was trying to compare anyone to anything. I know that those who have not attended Blue Beret will never understand that symbolism of the Blue Beret.

I'd like to quote something that one of the Tac Officer's from this year's NBB just said to me, that should be the message that all people must understand.

" I have seen the cadets that believe that the beret makes the person, when in fact the person makes the beret. That little blue felt hat is a ...badge just like every other uniform item. Nothing more, nothing less. It is the spirit inside the one wearing it that should shine bright. Your cross represents everything you were taught. Remember that always and you will be fine. Hold all with respect and get the job done. That is your mission, but you must choose how you complete it. Which path will you choose?"

I believe that this is the ideals that Every Blue Beret should have. It's not just another activity. It's something a lot more, but people dont recognize that

Sorry, wasn't referring to you, just the SMs that were "ganging up". Over one mistake, the word, elite.

Quote from: JThemann on August 08, 2010, 01:12:29 AM

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 12:54:18 AM
I was basically trying to defend the NBB in the first place. For those who think it is a bad program, then they don't know what they are talking about.

Don't compare me with those "bad apples" that try to be "Rambo" like because they have a beret. I am a Sergeant, I am more mature than that. I was just simply stating that the beret is a nice edition, I think it is pretty cool. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Or should you bash me for saying that statement?

The training, in a sense is not elite, that was a bad word to use, because even after a corrected myself, SM's continue to complain about that word I used.

Never would find myself saying this to Senior Member's, but some need to grow up.

>:(

No one was trying to bash  you.

Why do you feel you must defend a program you haven't attended? You're sig file says that you're a GTM3 Trainee. Perhaps you should complete your training first before you start to judge who and who doesn't know what they're talking about?

Lighten up Sergeant, no one is attacking you, or NBB. We're discussing the possible negative implications and issues around allowing cadets to wear the beret outside of NBB, as well as the regulatory issues around it.

You may be more mature then thinking a beret makes you elite, but people will form opinions on you based on other ways you present yourself.

Also, 'retard' is a powerful and offensive word to a lot of people....lets say people who have a mentally retarded aunt or something.

I'm defending it because I feel that is a vital program for CAP, and that is my opinion. I am a GTM3 Trainee, and will have my qualification for GTM3 later this month.

I was not presenting the word, retard, as a mentally incapable person. I was presenting it as, a Cadet who is just there to goof around and take up space. No offense implied.

Don't worry about it. That is how many people choose to view it. People believe the Beret is for "elites", But I earned mine and I do not believe I am elite in anyway. I'm just another CAP cadet with a blue felt hat. People have their opinions, and I respect their opinions, but like I said, people that has never been to National Blue Beret Will Never understand why myself and my fellow berets wear ours.

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 01:20:16 AM
Don't worry about it. That is how many people choose to view it. People believe the Beret is for "elites", But I earned mine and I do not believe I am elite in anyway. I'm just another CAP cadet with a blue felt hat. People have their opinions, and I respect their opinions, but like I said, people that has never been to National Blue Beret Will Never understand why myself and my fellow berets wear ours.

I completely agree. The beret does not make you special or elite... I don't know why, but people here have been taking my words out of context. It is very frustrating.

Sorry, Dude.  Didn't mean to take your words. It's just that the Beret to me, Its more than "bling" and it infuriates me sometimes to hear people refer to it as that. To me, its a symbol of a commitment to help anyone, anywhere, anytime, under any condition

I say again, cadets should read more and post less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cadets, when a SM gives advice or is trying to tell you to be quiet in a nice fashion, because YOU are making a fool of yourself you should say in your Mature mind, Yes sir AND STOP COMMENTING.
Cadets(children) should be reminded that they are just children and should be respectful to the Seniors on this board.
Mike please lock this thread.

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 01:25:56 AM
Sorry, Dude.  Didn't mean to take your words. It's just that the Beret to me, Its more than "bling" and it infuriates me sometimes to hear people refer to it as that. To me, its a symbol of a commitment to help anyone, anywhere, anytime, under any condition

Agreed... and you were not taking my words... just a spelling error on my part.

Quote from: Senior on August 08, 2010, 01:28:15 AM
I say again, cadets should read more and post less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cadets, when a SM gives advice or is trying to tell you to be quiet in a nice fashion, because YOU are making a fool of yourself you should say in your Mature mind, Yes sir AND STOP COMMENTING.
Cadets(children) should be reminded that they are just children and should be respectful to the Seniors on this board.
Mike please lock this thread.

Sir. I always respect Officers, but the Senior Members that took my words out of context, in my opinion, was just a slap in the face for me. I try to explain myself, and they continued on with taking my words out of the original context or, after I corrected myself, they continued on with their rants, etc.

:-X

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 01:31:52 AM

Quote from: Senior on August 08, 2010, 01:28:15 AM
I say again, cadets should read more and post less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cadets, when a SM gives advice or is trying to tell you to be quiet in a nice fashion, because YOU are making a fool of yourself you should say in your Mature mind, Yes sir AND STOP COMMENTING.
Cadets(children) should be reminded that they are just children and should be respectful to the Seniors on this board.
Mike please lock this thread.

Sir. I always respect Officers, but the Senior Members that took my words out of context, in my opinion, was just a slap in the face for me. I try to explain myself, and they continued on with taking my words out of the original context or, after I corrected myself, they continued on with their rants, etc.

:-X

Who is? Which message?

Quote from: Eclipse on August 07, 2010, 04:50:41 PM
Pictures are worth thousands of words.  Here is the entirety of the problem.

Most members (especially younger cadets) wearing a beret think they look like this:
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rV7S18znF8Y/0.jpg)

Having been in that organization and having worn that same flash on my GB:

Ever since that movie came out everyone else wanted to have one of those berets.  Many wanted it but few wanted to earn it. I spent a year of my life earning a beret (way before there was a tab).  Every CAP member I ever saw wearing one looked, frankly, like a goof ball wannabe.  Don't be that guy. You don't have the octane to pull it off.

Quote from: JThemann on August 08, 2010, 01:38:54 AM

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 01:31:52 AM

Quote from: Senior on August 08, 2010, 01:28:15 AM
I say again, cadets should read more and post less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cadets, when a SM gives advice or is trying to tell you to be quiet in a nice fashion, because YOU are making a fool of yourself you should say in your Mature mind, Yes sir AND STOP COMMENTING.
Cadets(children) should be reminded that they are just children and should be respectful to the Seniors on this board.
Mike please lock this thread.

Sir. I always respect Officers, but the Senior Members that took my words out of context, in my opinion, was just a slap in the face for me. I try to explain myself, and they continued on with taking my words out of the original context or, after I corrected myself, they continued on with their rants, etc.

:-X

Who is? Which message?

In General, people were still ranting after I corrected myself on the elite part. I don't care anymore...

[OFF TOPIC]

Quote from: USAFaux2004
...snippy...
You get the ribbon and the patch - just like all other activities. I went to Honor Guard Academy, which gives people a cord to wear. I didn't go for a stupid silver cord, I went to learn how to twirl rifles and HG on a bigger scale. Anyone who goes for a cord I'd laugh at. ...snippy...

Yeah, it is more that the cord, but it's also about more than twirling rifles.
[/OFF TOPIC]

Quote from: Senior on August 08, 2010, 01:28:15 AM
Cadets(children) should be reminded that they are just children and should be respectful to the Seniors on this board.
Mike please lock this thread.

Cadets are not "children"; some are adolescents, others (18+) are legally adults.

Cadets are young people; due to their inexperience and developing maturity they sometimes speak before they think (golly, good thing no seniors ever do that!)

Perhaps of you spoke with them rather than at them (or even down to them!) you might begin to have a positive influence on the cadets.

And before you ask, I've been in CAP over 40 years, so yes, I am a senior...but I was proud to be a cadet officer who earned an Earhart Award.

Cadet Lunsford:

Please try to see where we are coming from. You are talking to people who are GTM1s, GTLs, Mission Pilots/Observers. People with TONS more ES time than you.

You are talking to EMTs, and Military Veterans.

I, personally, have just been awarded my third Find award (Initial +1 Distress, +10 non-Distress). I think I know what I'm talking about.

What you said regarding Seniors needing to grow up, when you have no actual Mission experience, whatsoever, makes your actions completely out of line.

If I felt vindictive, I could take your name, grade and Wright Bros. number, find your Squadron, and send that post to your Unit Commander.

You will NEVER insult your superiors in a public setting. You may bring up your disagreements in private, but you will NEVER insult.

Bear that in mind the next time you post.

WIWAC, #1122, Spaatz.....
I learned in CAP as a cadet to be a follower.  Learning my place in
an organization and in life served me well in the military.  I learned
the importance of following orders and quickly accomplishing task. 
Now, in the context of this thread we have cadets, HGJunkie, Lunsford
being disrespectful to other members of this board.  I am just trying
to make a point to those who just don't seem to get it that they should be respectful of Senior members and to post less and read more.
Gunner C is the only one on this board who has earned the right to wear a beret and it wasn't from NBB.  Thanks for your service Gunner C.  Gunner C. I like the "octane to pull it off" comment :clap: :D.

Jeeze...the bold tags don't work on the posts....<_<

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 01:31:52 AM
Sir. I always respect Officers, but the Senior Members that took my words out of context, in my opinion, was just a slap in the face for me.

Ah...

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 07, 2010, 05:31:25 PM
I'd like to give my 2 cents...

If anyone has seen my facebook, I am already looking forward to going to Blue Beret 2011. One reason I am going is to advance my GTM training. Another reason is to earn the Blue Beret. There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn a beret, which shows the elite training that you endured.

I also think that National HQ should keep their decision to allow the Blue Beret. NBB, is a elite training for GES, and that beret shows that the said person that wears it, endured that training.

I'd also like to point out a quote from blueberet.org...The person makes the beret...The beret does not make the person.That mean that the beret does not mean anything special just because you put it on, but when you earn the beret, it symbolizes the extensive training that you went through.'nuff said.

What part of that whole post was taken out of context?  You then go on to say:

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 01:16:53 AM
I'm defending it because I feel that is a vital program for CAP, andthat is my opinion.

What experience is that opinion based on?

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 12:54:18 AM
I was basically trying to defend the NBB in the first place. For those who think it is a bad program, then they don't know what they are talking about.

Please show me a quote where someone said the program as a whole is bad? Also tell me how exactly you know it to be otherwise?

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 12:54:18 AM
Don't compare me with those "bad apples" that try to be "Rambo" likebecause they have a beret. I am a Sergeant, I am more mature than that.I was just simply stating that the beret is a nice edition, I think itis pretty cool. Nothing wrong with that, is there? Or should you bashme for saying that statement?

Have you any idea how redicilous those two statements are together? It's akin to a cadet saying "I'm not a sir, I work for a living". I've seen many goofball cadet NCOs and OFFICERS come back from Hawk or NBB with major attitude issues. Many of them were the same age as or older than you are now.

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 12:54:18 AM
Never would find myself saying this to Senior Member's, but some need to grow up.

And this shows your maturity how? You get called out on your statements and now people who are at times more than twice your age need to grow up? Seriously?

Quote from: HGjunkie on August 08, 2010, 02:14:37 AM
[OFF TOPIC]

Quote from: USAFaux2004
...snippy...
You get the ribbon and the patch - just like all other activities. I went to Honor Guard Academy, which gives people a cord to wear. I didn't go for a stupid silver cord, I went to learn how to twirl rifles and HG on a bigger scale. Anyone who goes for a cord I'd laugh at. ...snippy...

Yeah, it is more that the cord, but it's also about more than twirling rifles.
[/OFF TOPIC]

Isn't that what I said right after the twirling part? *Checks his post* I think it is!



I think Senior's advice should really be taken by some cadets here. You'll run into people that disagree with you your whole life. In fact, every four years, you'll end up voting in an election where about 50% of the people don't agree with you. Just because others with a lot more experience in life and CAP disagree with your glorified view of an activity, does not give you a license to tell others to grow up or be disrespectful in any way, especially to those who make the cadet program possible for us.The real folks with the power in the Cadet Program are the Cadet Program Senior Member Leaders. Not C/NCOs, nor C/Officers.

^^^ My bad. I misinterpreted the post.

I honestly can't believe that there would be this much argument over a hat. I still stand by my idea that the beret is nothing more than a hat, but its the Cross on the Flash that symbolizes a Blue Beret.

I'm not in the least disrespectful to anyone, cadet or senior, but it's just a hat. It is a piece of felt and wool that you wear on your head. It serves the same purpose as a patrol cap or a ballcap. You wear it on your head. That's it.

And like Ive said before, Its very unfortunate that a few bad apples will spoil it for the rest of us. Those who say that  we didn't "earn" our berets, please, I'd ask you to apply for National Blue Beret next year, go through the training, the pre-operational, the actual operation, and then come home, and tell me the same thing.

We aren't Elite, We aren't "special", we aren't "gods among cadets", and the beret is nothing more than another hat.


Cadets think its cool, that's fantastic.

Seniors think its bull that we get a beret, thats fine with me too.

But like I said, If you think its ridiculous that we get a hat, then please apply for NBB, and go through the training, go through the operation, and tell me that you have the same ideals that you have now.

Very Respectfully,

C/1st Lt Le
Echo Flight
National Blue Beret 2010

What does the two weeks of the hardkewl/hardcore training have to do with it? As long as you don't get kicked out, you end up with a beret, correct?

I've put in more time and training for CAP meetings/Encampments but for some reason I don't get a silly hat. At one point you say you don't care about the hat, the next sentence you say you earned the beret because of the "tough" job you guys did for 1 week + 1 week training. Which is it?

Honestly, you paid money to go work for free somewhere. That's all there is. The focus shouldn't be the beret, it should be the fun at the show while doing some CAP related stuff. The fact of the matter that the beret is the focus means that something is broken about the system.

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on August 08, 2010, 05:43:05 AM
What does the two weeks of the hardkewl/hardcore training have to do with it? As long as you don't get kicked out, you end up with a beret, correct?

I've put in more time and training for CAP meetings/Encampments but for some reason I don't get a silly hat. At one point you say you don't care about the hat, the next sentence you say you earned the beret because of the "tough" job you guys did for 1 week + 1 week training. Which is it?

Honestly, you paid money to go work for free somewhere. That's all there is. The focus shouldn't be the beret, it should be the fun at the show while doing some CAP related stuff. The fact of the matter that the beret is the focus means that something is broken about the system.

Are you taking this to a personal level? Are you going to deny my opinion because I have not had the "experience" you have had? I may have not been to NBB, but I've researched it, that is enough for me to put my 2 cents in.

@ CADET Lunsford:

Yes. I am going to completely deny your opinion on the grounds of experience. You have no authority or grounds to comment. What you read on some Gung Ho Beret website hardly counts as research.

In the ES world, the only thing that matters is experience. Experience in the field, on actual missions.

Once you go to NBB, and get an ACTUAL GTM rating you can talk. Until then, I concur with Senior. Keep your mouth shut. You are only digging yourself a deeper hole.

EDIT: Notice to SYSOP or Admin; I concur with Senior. Please lock this thread. The OP's dilemma has been more than dealt with.

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 05:04:42 AM
I honestly can't believe that there would be this much argument over a hat. I still stand by my idea that the beret is nothing more than a hat, but its the Cross on the Flash that symbolizes a Blue Beret.

I'm not in the least disrespectful to anyone, cadet or senior, but it's just a hat. It is a piece of felt and wool that you wear on your head. It serves the same purpose as a patrol cap or a ballcap. You wear it on your head. That's it.

And like Ive said before, Its very unfortunate that a few bad apples will spoil it for the rest of us. Those who say that  we didn't "earn" our berets, please, I'd ask you to apply for National Blue Beret next year, go through the training, the pre-operational, the actual operation, and then come home, and tell me the same thing.

We aren't Elite, We aren't "special", we aren't "gods among cadets", and the beret is nothing more than another hat.


Cadets think its cool, that's fantastic.

Seniors think its bull that we get a beret, thats fine with me too.

But like I said, If you think its ridiculous that we get a hat, then please apply for NBB, and go through the training, go through the operation, and tell me that you have the same ideals that you have now.

Very Respectfully,

C/1st Lt Le
Echo Flight
National Blue Beret 2010

No one here is bashing the program, or saying it's not worthwhile, or difficult. But is it so worthwhile and difficult that it requires a special piece of headgear that two ranking cadets officers in this thread have stated is important for them to be reminded of their time there?

Another senior cadet NCO immediately went on the hardcore defensive when I posted something that did not agree with his view, and that cadet hasn't even been selected to attend.

I guess the problem is, as with any specialized program, is people start to drink the Koolaid and then have trouble seeing the outsiders perceptive. One cadet mentioned in response to a post about how little CAP was shown in a documentary about the Air Venture event that their liaison officer told them how important they were. That's his job.

Again, no one is attacking the program, or it's participates, and no one is belittling it. But when bad attitudes about the program are coming from people who haven't even attended it yet, people start to question things.

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on August 08, 2010, 05:56:17 AM
@ CADET Lunsford:

Yes. I am going to completely deny your opinion on the grounds of experience. You have no authority or grounds to comment. What you read on some Gung Ho Beret website hardly counts as research.

In the ES world, the only thing that matters is experience. Experience in the field, on actual missions.

Once you go to NBB, and get an ACTUAL GTM rating you can talk. Until then, I concur with Senior. Keep your mouth shut. You are only digging yourself a deeper hole.

EDIT: Notice to SYSOP or Admin; I concur with Senior. Please lock this thread. The OP's dilemma has been more than dealt with.

I can comment on this thread. You can deny it if you would like, but here is your gung ho website... http://blueberet.org/ (http://blueberet.org/)

Quote from: JThemann on August 08, 2010, 06:01:27 AM

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 05:04:42 AM
I honestly can't believe that there would be this much argument over a hat. I still stand by my idea that the beret is nothing more than a hat, but its the Cross on the Flash that symbolizes a Blue Beret.

I'm not in the least disrespectful to anyone, cadet or senior, but it's just a hat. It is a piece of felt and wool that you wear on your head. It serves the same purpose as a patrol cap or a ballcap. You wear it on your head. That's it.

And like Ive said before, Its very unfortunate that a few bad apples will spoil it for the rest of us. Those who say that  we didn't "earn" our berets, please, I'd ask you to apply for National Blue Beret next year, go through the training, the pre-operational, the actual operation, and then come home, and tell me the same thing.

We aren't Elite, We aren't "special", we aren't "gods among cadets", and the beret is nothing more than another hat.


Cadets think its cool, that's fantastic.

Seniors think its bull that we get a beret, thats fine with me too.

But like I said, If you think its ridiculous that we get a hat, then please apply for NBB, and go through the training, go through the operation, and tell me that you have the same ideals that you have now.

Very Respectfully,

C/1st Lt Le
Echo Flight
National Blue Beret 2010

No one here is bashing the program, or saying it's not worthwhile, or difficult. But is it so worthwhile and difficult that it requires a special piece of headgear that two ranking cadets officers in this thread have stated is important for them to be reminded of their time there?

Another senior cadet NCO immediately went on the hardcore defensive when I posted something that did not agree with his view, and that cadet hasn't even been selected to attend.

I guess the problem is, as with any specialized program, is people start to drink the Koolaid and then have trouble seeing the outsiders perceptive. One cadet mentioned in response to a post about how little CAP was shown in a documentary about the Air Venture event that their liaison officer told them how important they were. That's his job.

Again, no one is attacking the program, or it's participates, and no one is belittling it. But when bad attitudes about the program are coming from people who haven't even attended it yet, people start to question things.

How is my attitude bad about it. I am praising the program... just because I have not been to NBB, does not mean I cannot speculate about it.

NBB is a two week activity where you get to work for free, doing things that aren't really all that hard - directing aircraft, hunting ELTs (as much an art as a skill, but in a moderately challenging environment), and using a radio.

What I see is an opportunities to: excel, develop teamwork, establish some camaraderie, and make long term friends. What I don't see is any reason to have an elitist attitude about jobs that folks do all over the country, all the time, just on a smaller scale.

Is it time?

(http://members.cox.net/xanadu99/CAP/Clock_ticking_away.gif)

Quote from: C/MSgt Lunsford on August 08, 2010, 06:01:28 AM

Quote from: Krapenhoeffer on August 08, 2010, 05:56:17 AM
@ CADET Lunsford:

Yes. I am going to completely deny your opinion on the grounds of experience. You have no authority or grounds to comment. What you read on some Gung Ho Beret website hardly counts as research.

In the ES world, the only thing that matters is experience. Experience in the field, on actual missions.

Once you go to NBB, and get an ACTUAL GTM rating you can talk. Until then, I concur with Senior. Keep your mouth shut. You are only digging yourself a deeper hole.

EDIT: Notice to SYSOP or Admin; I concur with Senior. Please lock this thread. The OP's dilemma has been more than dealt with.

I can comment on this thread. You can deny it if you would like, but here is your gung ho website... http://blueberet.org/ (http://blueberet.org/)

Yes. That's a gung ho website. It's been around since I was a Cadet.

Sergeant, we're not 'taking it to a personal level.' We're trying to teach you. Not everyone is going to agree with your opinions, and sometimes you're going to get a bit of a reality check by guys who had been there and done that. Trust me, it happens all the time.

Here is a True Legend about the Blue Beret.

Once upon a time, there was a group that called themselves the "Special Service Corps."

This group was unnecessary, and engaged in hazing. So National put the axe to them.

The SSC's participation at Oshkosh became a NCSA, with no beret.

People complained, so the Beret was reauthorized.

SOME very loud cadets return from NBB with an "elite mentality."

Certain cadets on this thread still buy into this nonsense, and are attacking anybody who dares get in-between them and their precious Beret.

As a WI Wing member, I thank all the personnel who come up to our wonderful state and help out. I hope you enjoyed our cheese, cows and wonderful scenery.

However, the "Beret Mentality" which certain cadets are exhibiting right now (including one without a ES rating [GES doesn't count in my book]), is what makes me despise the hat of horrors.

Quote from: JThemann on August 08, 2010, 06:01:27 AM

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 05:04:42 AM
I honestly can't believe that there would be this much argument over a hat. I still stand by my idea that the beret is nothing more than a hat, but its the Cross on the Flash that symbolizes a Blue Beret.

I'm not in the least disrespectful to anyone, cadet or senior, but it's just a hat. It is a piece of felt and wool that you wear on your head. It serves the same purpose as a patrol cap or a ballcap. You wear it on your head. That's it.

And like Ive said before, Its very unfortunate that a few bad apples will spoil it for the rest of us. Those who say that  we didn't "earn" our berets, please, I'd ask you to apply for National Blue Beret next year, go through the training, the pre-operational, the actual operation, and then come home, and tell me the same thing.

We aren't Elite, We aren't "special", we aren't "gods among cadets", and the beret is nothing more than another hat.


Cadets think its cool, that's fantastic.

Seniors think its bull that we get a beret, thats fine with me too.

But like I said, If you think its ridiculous that we get a hat, then please apply for NBB, and go through the training, go through the operation, and tell me that you have the same ideals that you have now.

Very Respectfully,

C/1st Lt Le
Echo Flight
National Blue Beret 2010

No one here is bashing the program, or saying it's not worthwhile, or difficult. But is it so worthwhile and difficult that it requires a special piece of headgear that two ranking cadets officers in this thread have stated is important for them to be reminded of their time there?

Another senior cadet NCO immediately went on the hardcore defensive when I posted something that did not agree with his view, and that cadet hasn't even been selected to attend.

I guess the problem is, as with any specialized program, is people start to drink the Koolaid and then have trouble seeing the outsiders perceptive. One cadet mentioned in response to a post about how little CAP was shown in a documentary about the Air Venture event that their liaison officer told them how important they were. That's his job.

Again, no one is attacking the program, or it's participates, and no one is belittling it. But when bad attitudes about the program are coming from people who haven't even attended it yet, people start to question things.

I understand where you are coming from, and from what you are saying, its a double edged sword if you think about it. No ones bashing the program, just the headgear. People that have never attended NBB will have the same opinions more or less, and people that have gone through it have the same opinion on it. As for the worthwhileness (dont know if that is a word), yes it was worth while, and though many people might disagree that its not a difficult activity, are wrong. Ridiculous weather conditions, sleep deprivation, and some other stuff. So yes, I believe it was worth while

I think that was one of the most mature post to come out of this thread yet!

I have seen senior members get bent out of shape and be like "who the #$(( does that cadet think he is, something special? I think not. Someone should bring him down a step or two"... just at the mere sight of a cadet wearing a beret. In fact, I have seen this reaction WAY more than I have seen a cadet in a beret act behave in a way that deserved such ridicule.

That is not to say I have not seen the occasional beret who did deserve some talking to. But it is nowhere near as frequent as you would expect given the knee jerk reactions of some senior members.

Like, why do so many senior members feel it is their duty in life to go and check the accomplishments of some cadets with comments and harassment like "you feel special for going to an airshow"?  And it is not just NBB either. I see seniors who LOVE showing up cadets with ranger tabs..."See cadet, just because you went to Hawk mountain doesn't mean you know everything"..."Uh, Sir, I realize that. Only Expert Rangers know everything". (LOL, okay)

You know, sometimes I think it is us senior members who need to chill out and relax, and learn to encourage cadets participating in activities that are pretty advanced and pretty spectacular given their age groups, not ours.

Personal preferences aside, I don't understand why people consider a beret as such a valued symbol of completing such an exciting national activity. CAP personnel attend PJOC and NESA, where the training is considerably more intensive, and don't earn berets.

Isn't the patch, badge, ribbon, etc, enough?

Why is it necessary to promote elitism when the true concept that should have come from that event is teamwork and mentoring others.

Ever wonder what that air of elitism does when the individual returns to the unit? Activity aside, does the elitism destroy a unit. From personal experience, I saw what Hawk Mountain did to a unit and I'm long enough in this program to remember when graduates of Hawk Mountain earned an "airborne ranger" patch that caused just as much consternation.

I once wore a beret as a security policeman. Funny, I preferred my fatigue (what it was called then) or organizational baseball cap at the time. The beret, though cool, was always such high maintenance. We wore enameled command crests at the time that had to be regularly replaced because pins broke or the emblem would get shattered. That didn't include fading, dirt, pilling, sweat and sunburned noses....or that stupid lace in the back that had to be tucked in if it wasn't tied correctly.

In the end, the beret and the shield now just collect dust. My qualification badge and the expert marksman ribbon mean a little more.

In the end, however, all the posts on this subject are meaningless if NHQ remains vague on the subject and continues to allow it awarded.

I'd have to agree that some cadets that have been to NBB have an elitist attitude. I suspect that these cadets had that attitude before they went.   However, some of the best cadet leaders I have ever seen have been there as well.  They don't have to tell everyone how great they are, or act like they are some kind of Special Forces super cool ninja commando.  Just the way that they lead by example without acting like a R. Lee Ermey wanna-be I find to be very impressive.

To me it's the same as the cadets whose GT gear is straight from Blackhawk!, Ranger Joe's, or US Cav.  They have to show off all of their "cool" stuff so people will think they are important, but are barely capable of doing the job.  I'm much more impressed with the cadet whose stuff comes from Wal-mart, but listens well, knows what they are supposed to do, and understands that it is not about them.

My expereince with cadets (and some seniors) who've attend NBB and HM has been they come back with serious attitude problems. They insisted on wearing the blue cow pie even though the wing commander had banned it (which the wing cc can do) "because they earned it". They wore the ranger tabs (before the NB authorized it) because they were part of an elite team. When the unit commander inform them them otherwise, many of these clowns left the unit and/or CAP because, as one cadidiot put it, the unit wouldn't recognize their superiority.

Now, this is not just one or two or a few, it is 90+% of the ones I've met. I suspect many of the seniors on this board have had similar experiences.

Even though is has been reported that NBB and HM tell their participants that they are not elite or special, the caving in by the NB to allow the special recognition for these two activities, reinforces the notion that they are considered elite.

The "moral of the story" is attitude. That is what myself and some others tried to get across in the beginning of this. The clothes don't make the man....the man makes the clothes. Sorry ladies...that is just an old saying and intended to leave you out. I work in LE and I have seen some people go through rookie school and come out cocky and arrogant and usually make lousy officers. The ones that come out with I am proud to wear the badge and I am glad I made seem to do far better in their careers and usually gain the public trust better. It is the attitude behind what you do. We have all at some point had an over zealous teacher in school or been stopped by an LEO with a cocky attitude or had a ladder climber for a boss. These people will almost always fail in the long run. Due mainly to the attitude. Do the job wear the uniform and any symbol that goes with it, but do so in a humble way. Cadets do need to listen and learn from Seniors this is very true. But I also think we as seniors fail the cadets when we don't "hear" what they are saying.....myself included.

Gee, and here I just looked at the whole thing like ..another two week activity/school/whatever - like dare I say it, Encampment, RSC, NSC, etc - and you attend, complete 80% of the curriculum (essentially, don't get kicked out) and you get a device that says you did it.

Granted, the training applies toward ES ratings, I'm seeing the beret argument is about as touchy as the boonie hat. To me, they're all just hats. You get a badge after two weeks of NBB, you get a badge after several days of other focused activities too. You get a ribbon after just over a week of Encampment.

Do you wear your encampment hat again after the event? Usually not. I would presume the same thing for the blue beret.

That some people choose to do so, means .. perhaps it means they just don't get it. Uniform changes and options tend to come with rank, and assignment, but not so much with awards. You wear a shoulder cord when your on a color guard, honor guard, etc. You get additional options of hat types when you reach officer level, or field grade officer level.

But if someone showed up wearing a beret to my unit, you bet I'd question it. Where is it in the regulation that is a proper uniform item? Because as far as I know, baring any niche amendments, attachments, authorizations, letters, other regionally only available items, whatever - it says

Quote from: CAPR 39-1, Table 1-3Only blue berets may be authorized for special purpose wear. Berets provided at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY.

and I interpret that to mean that any beret ever used in CAP must be blue only, and that the beret is used at that activity only. After that it becomes a shelf device like a trophy or plaque. Now that also leads to "well, we want a beret for our activity".. and of course the chickens will fly and scratch because the people in WI will say "thats ours", when lends credibility to the argument - the crest is the symbol, the cow pie is just a hat. So it would be called the PCR Blue Berets, or the CAWG Blue Berets, .. if an activity were put together around such a theme and it would have it's own award/pin/device/thing.

Hence, what I think also needs to be done is refer to the whole thing as the National Blue Beret so that should it ever get used at another level there is distinction. I suspect it will not happen though.

If a cadet comes back with an attitude, then thats going to be dealt with at the unit. If the unit allows it to fester, then the whole program is mis-understood at that level and everyone needs to step back and re-evaluate what is going on. Likewise, if there is even a hint of this being implied during the NBB activity, the same applies there. It's a two week activity, in line with other CAP activities of it's type, sponsored on the national level, that being it draws from the whole organization. .. and thats it.

Two weeks of focused, semi-situation specific training combined with morale and camaraderie that can be applied in the field outside of the AirVenture event just as well.

I believe this thread has been blown way out of porportion. All this fighting and argument over a hat. Im sorry that people have had such bad experiences with Blue Berets, but conflicts in life is inevitable.

The Beret is nothing more than a hat. It doesn't make me better at ES than the guy next to me. It doesn't make me a better leader than the person next to me. It doesn't make me elite, It doesn't make me superior, It doesn't make me any more important than the person next to me, and I will defend this statement.

If you disagree with me, and I know people will disagree with me, the so be it. That is your opinion. If you don't like the Beret, then simply dont wear it. Simple as that. If you have a cadet that is wearing the beret and has attended NBB, Please before you condemn him, Please take the time to Ask him or her, why they are wearing that Cross on the Flash, And listen to what they are saying.

For those of you reading this thread and trying to figure out what the big deal is.

The problem is not the hat, its the attitude.

Any activity which generates a "you can't make me..." response from a subordinate (cadet or senior), means we have failed as a program, not just an activity.

Let's see how this suggestion would fly at NBB:

Change the activity patch from the eight-ball with beret to a St Albain's Cross on a modified heater shield (aka AF shield) and ditch the beret. You'd have the 'important' part and should remove the contentious part. Also change the name of the activity from National Blue Beret to something else.

If the beret is truly an unimportant part of the activity, it shouldn't be a problem.

Here's a few gems post NBB:

The defense was Squadron Commander Authorization. I wonder who asked for it in the first place.

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/squadronautho.jpg)


The rest of these are INWG
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/ahha.jpg)

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/cap.jpg)

And look! A double whammy! NBB Hat + Ranger Grade! + CAP Metal Grade! Awesome!

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/n577460592_5796397_9830.jpg)

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/n577460592_5796172_1851.jpg)

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/n1161780062_30105398_7305.jpg)

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/n1161780062_30105413_1601.jpg)

Take note, this is their "Winter" exercise...also note the Captain

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a302/USAFAUX2004/n1161780062_30105403_8701.jpg)

Sir,

Those are in NO WAY Blue Berets From NBB. I Guarentee you that. That is the GTM Beret, Which looks ridiculous in my opinion. The NBB executive staff even told us, The Blue Beret is only authorized with the BDU Uniform, and the only authorized Crest is the ST. Alban's Cross

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 04:09:48 PM
Sir,

Those are in NO WAY Blue Berets From NBB. I Guarentee you that. That is the GTM Beret, Which looks ridiculous in my opinion. The NBB executive staff even told us, The Blue Beret is only authorized with the BDU Uniform, and the only authorized Crest is the ST. Alban's Cross

Those cadets have been to NBB. Notice the SM Captain with your crest on his Beret. Reality bubble burst moment there?

What about the Cadets? Are you sure they are from NBB too?

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 04:13:25 PM
What about the Cadets? Are you sure they are from NBB too?

A number of them also had pictures with the crest/at NBB. Besides, since the beret is only authorized by NBB, you really think that Captain would just encourage this behavior?

Yeah, Im pretty much done with this thread. I understand the hostility towards Berets like myself, and Honestly, I find it ridiculous that people would hate us this much. I'm sorry for whatever we did.

You hate my Beret, thats fine, but I will still wear mine proud

Interesting to note that the beret isn't the only place that these cadets lack attention to detail in their uniforms.

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on August 08, 2010, 04:14:13 PM

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 04:13:25 PM
What about the Cadets? Are you sure they are from NBB too?

A number of them also had pictures with the crest/at NBB. Besides, since the beret is only authorized by NBB, you really think that Captain would just encourage this behavior?

he is wearing ABDU's...
Im guessing he's never bothered himself with the regs...

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 04:18:25 PM
Yeah, Im pretty much done with this thread. I understand the hostility towards Berets like myself, and Honestly, I find it ridiculous that people would hate us this much. I'm sorry for whatever we did.

You hate my Beret, thats fine, but I will still wear mine proud

How can you understand and not know what you did? And stop with the martyr talk. No one here said anything against you directly in this thread. Of course, If I ever ran into you I might chuckle at the beret. Patrol Caps work just fine.

Before you start dissing my wing you need to understand something. We have a 39-1 supplement authorizing a blue beret with flight cap device for cadet enlisted or SM and metal grade for cadet officers for use only on ES missions if you have earned a GT rating. I have one. I wear it when I'm in the field. This supplement is published on the members only portion of the wing wiki. I think Ace might have one on his site. Every pic posted on this page from my wing is perfectly in line with the regs. The NBB over blues is not allowed.

Quote from: tsrup on August 08, 2010, 04:21:50 PM

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on August 08, 2010, 04:14:13 PM

Quote from: Cadet 1stLt on August 08, 2010, 04:13:25 PM
What about the Cadets? Are you sure they are from NBB too?

A number of them also had pictures with the crest/at NBB. Besides, since the beret is only authorized by NBB, you really think that Captain would just encourage this behavior?

he is wearing ABDU's...
Im guessing he's never bothered himself with the regs...

Yea, noticed that too. I was just more shocked by the Beret w/Metal C/Capt Grade  with Metal C/Capt grade on collar w/ ranger grade above CAP tape...

Quote from: davidsinn on August 08, 2010, 04:23:27 PM
Before you start dissing my wing you need to understand something. We have a 39-1 supplement authorizing a blue beret with flight cap device for cadet enlisted or SM and metal grade for cadet officers for use only on ES missions if you have earned a GT rating. I have one. I wear it when I'm in the field. This supplement is published on the members only portion of the wing wiki. I think Ace might have one on his site. Every pic posted on this page from my wing is perfectly in line with the regs. The NBB over blues is not allowed.

Are non-regulation BDUs and Cadet Officer Metal Grade also authorized in INWG? What about ranger grade?

I would also have to question the intent of such a supplement, especially in wintertime...

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on August 08, 2010, 04:25:11 PM

Quote from: davidsinn on August 08, 2010, 04:23:27 PM
Before you start dissing my wing you need to understand something. We have a 39-1 supplement authorizing a blue beret with flight cap device for cadet enlisted or SM and metal grade for cadet officers for use only on ES missions if you have earned a GT rating. I have one. I wear it when I'm in the field. This supplement is published on the members only portion of the wing wiki. I think Ace might have one on his site. Every pic posted on this page from my wing is perfectly in line with the regs. The NBB over blues is not allowed.

Are non-regulation BDUs and Cadet Officer Metal Grade also authorized in INWG? What about ranger grade?

I would also have to question the intent of such a supplement, especially in wintertime...

No to the first two. Ranger grade was unfortunatly authorized by the NB. That mission you have pictures of took place right around the freezing point so it wasn't that cold. I really don't get the hate for the hat. I completly understand the hatred of the elite attitude. I can't stand the attitude that a lot of those people have. The overwhelming majority of GTM beret wearers are just like any other GTM attitude wise. Yes there are some that need beaten with a clue by four but it's not the hat that causes that. They have a bad attitude from their home unit or just because they are arrogant sobs. You'll get that anywhere.

4 years ago, I believe the ranger grade was one of the things that was not authorized for wear, or was pulled down almost immediately after. Either way, the silence on the issue is annoying and should be resolved one way or the other.

Yeah, Im pretty much done with this thread. I understand the hostility towards Berets like myself, and Honestly, I find it ridiculous that people would hate us this much. I'm sorry for whatever we did.

You hate my Beret, thats fine, but I will still wear mine proud



Nobody "hates" the beret or you.  Its just silly that we use them as a symbol for helping out at an airshow. As a professional SAR person in my day job, you would be laughed at if you showed up to assist with berets on.  A bunch of kids showing up with berets on will NOT cause you to be taken seriously.  It will have quite the opposite effect. 
I have always been the guy who likes to point out the reality of a situation, so here it goes.  Dont read any further if you are easly hurt.  CAP is there to track down the hundreds of ELTs that go off over the course of the airshow because nobody else wants to do it  while they are there partying at Oshkosh.  We think its cool....nobody else does.  So what do we do to keep the labor coming back.  We offer the cadets berets so we have a continuous recruitment tool for cheap labor.  And then we make you pay to come work.  Im sure everyone who wears the beret will disagree.  But there you have it.
In other countries, everyone wears berets.  England as an example.  In the US, we don't.  People recognize the beret as an elite symbol. 

In the real world of SAR which is what Blue Berets claim to be trained at, a bunch of cadets arriving to assist on a SAR with other professional SAR members, such as a Sheriff's SAR team or even working with the Guard in some instances, wearing berets is really lame to put it frankly.  If you show up at a CAP function, sure you look cool amongst your peers because you are sporting a beret.
I think the program is great and I think NBB is a good program but lets keep it in perspective.  So some teams use it as a  Ground Team symbol?  Really?  I never knew.  Why?  We have GT badges.  The beret is purely a "look at me" identifier.  I completely understand that cadets need incentives.  Not a problem.  They have plenty of them.  But of all the cadet programs CAP has, why is NBB the only ones wearing berets?  I think if programs like CSS, PJOC-APJOC, CCT Orientation and even the flamboyant Ranger program can manage their programs without a beret, to me, I think NBB could definitely do without it.

Look, I get it.  Let me make a confession.  When I was a cadet, I BEGGED my parents to send me to NBB.  My unit had 2 cadets who went and looked freaking awesome cruising around CAP activities, Wing Cadet Conference and encampment with the berets on and I wanted one.  BAD!  It was about $700 to go to NBB with the airfare included.  This was in the late 80s and early 90s.  When the cadets came back from NBB.  They didnt come back with any great skill or training program.  They were never called on to perform any missions or do anything special.  And as I grew older, I understood the major motivation behind cadets going.  They wanted the special hat. 
Then I got into the Marines where I learned that there was nothing special that denoted one Marine from another other than maybe jump wings or a SCUBA badge.  We were all Marines.  No unit patches, not berets, no unit pins other than the 5th and 6th Marine Regiments who wear the French Fourragere.  And even with that, you only wear it while assigned to the unit.  When you move on, you leave your rope behind.  It was a unit symbol.  Beyond that, if you had a badge or a symbol its because you were trained in a special skill.  Not because you attended a course.  Heck, Marines dont even get to wear HALO wings to the dismay of many who have attended.  So thats where I draw my current philosophy. 

Quote from: davidsinn on August 08, 2010, 04:23:27 PM
Before you start dissing my wing you need to understand something. We have a 39-1 supplement authorizing a blue beret with flight cap device for cadet enlisted or SM and metal grade for cadet officers for use only on ES missions if you have earned a GT rating. I have one. I wear it when I'm in the field. This supplement is published on the members only portion of the wing wiki. I think Ace might have one on his site. Every pic posted on this page from my wing is perfectly in line with the regs. The NBB over blues is not allowed.

Why would a Wing Supplement be published in a members only section? Is it classified? Are we trying to hide something???

Quote from: PHall on August 08, 2010, 06:03:38 PM

Quote from: davidsinn on August 08, 2010, 04:23:27 PM
Before you start dissing my wing you need to understand something. We have a 39-1 supplement authorizing a blue beret with flight cap device for cadet enlisted or SM and metal grade for cadet officers for use only on ES missions if you have earned a GT rating. I have one. I wear it when I'm in the field. This supplement is published on the members only portion of the wing wiki. I think Ace might have one on his site. Every pic posted on this page from my wing is perfectly in line with the regs. The NBB over blues is not allowed.

Why would a Wing Supplement be published in a members only section? Is it classified? Are we trying to hide something???

It used to be published in the clear but when they changed to the wiki format everything went behind a password. I don't think we keep IT at the wing level for very long for what ever the reason is. I think it just became easier to maintain in it's current method.

I'm going to write a proposal for orange berets for ground teams. :)

It would appear that there's not a great deal more to be said here.  Cadet Lunsford was successfully shouted down, and sent away with his tail between his legs, as has Cadet Le.  Hooray for all of the senior members and their sense of superiority.  Is it time for the lock yet?

No one was "shouted down" or "sent away".

The heart and soul of the matter is getting the job done. You don't need special recognition for that. In a cadet's eyes the beret is a symbol of accomplishment. That is great. I would never tear that down. You should be commended for it. Yes wear the beret when it is time to wear it then put it in safe keeping as a memory of your accomplishment. Afterwards, get on with the job. Some in the AF had an issue with flight crews wearing the flight suit for everything. Some say this was the crews thinking they were elite therefore blue monday was born. All play a part. When the rubber meets the road we are a team. In the AF the guy or gal checking oil at the motor pool is just as important as the F-22 pilot. All pieces must fit the puzzle. The USMC does not have berets or any "special forces" their thought is all Marines are elite and there is no need to seperate the mission. In CAP; cadets are proud of special accomplishments as they should be. I would never tell a cadet different. But the fact of the matter all cadets are special. Take a look around at our country's youth. We have dropouts, gangs, kids with no focus or future. Our kids don't fit that group. They are proud of their country and want to serve. That makes them all special from a new cadet basic to a Spaatz and they don't need a beret or any item to prove it. Seniors as well. We volunteer without pay.....pay for our own uniforms....spend time away from work and family just to save a stranger's life. That makes us all elite in my book. It doesn't matter if you are in the crew making a find or if you are the guy that brought the doughnuts and gathers the trash.....we have a noble mission and are elite!

Quote from: BGNightfall on August 08, 2010, 07:42:42 PM
It would appear that there's not a great deal more to be said here.  Cadet Lunsford was successfully shouted down, and sent away with his tail between his legs, as has Cadet Le.  Hooray for all of the senior members and their sense of superiority.  Is it time for the lock yet?

I'm not a SM (yet), but I was on "the dark side" of this argument. Why? Because I too, like Flying Pig wanted to have the Blue Beret. Fortunately for me, the year I applied, HGA came up during the same period, and by the time I was 16, I realized it was neither what I wanted to do for two weeks, nor worth the silly hat that I wouldn't be able to wear outside the activity. Of course none of that stopped other cadets who got their unit CCs to approve said headgear, even with blues. That unit had a history of doing that with NBB stuff though.

This sounds very similar to the discussions about JROTC cadets wearing all their stuff on their uniforms and how messed up many think it looks.

My personal opinion?

You can't blame a cadet for wearing something that their program has created or told them to wear.  Telling the kid that it looks messed up, or how much you hate it does nothing. 

"Those darn cadets look like Peruvian dictators with those ribbons and beret..."

Get over it, someone authorized them to wear them, and my personal distaste for it doesn't matter.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 08, 2010, 09:47:13 PM
Get over it, someone authorized them to wear them, and my personal distaste for it doesn't matter.

Ahhh. There's the rub. In some places, they have NOT been authorized to wear it, but they continue to wear it anyway because they "earned" it.

I haven't really seen any new discussion or input in the last two pages. It appears this one has reached the end of the line and is turning into a JFK, Jr. spiral on both sides.  If you feel like there is something else significant and relevant to contribute, start a new thread.

*Good night*