Something I found out about SOS just now.

[Tim Medeiros]

So apparently SOS has updated their eligibility requirements so that if you are military below O-2 (without a line number) and CAP (Capt or above) you still can't take SOS, unless I'm reading this wrong.

US armed forces officers (active duty, Reserve, and National Guard) and Civil Air Patrol members selected for the rank of captain (0-3) or above are eligible for enrollment into the SOS DL Program.  Military rank takes precedence (CAP is not military), meaning that individuals on active duty or in the Guard or Reserves who hold a military pay grade of O-2 (without a line number for O-3) or below, are not eligible for enrollment regardless of their federal civilian pay grade or CAP rank.

emphasis added

Guess I won't be taking that course anytime soon...

http://www.au.af.mil/au/soc/msos003.html

[bosshawk]

Tim: the way that I read that means that CAP Captain or above can enroll in the DL Program.  That is in the first sentence.  Your being a CAP Major would let you apply.

AF regs are written almost as badly as CAP regs.

[SarDragon]

Is this online, or "books in the mail"?

Some of the online courses have limits on the number of people who can be enrolled at one time. The way I read the quote, if there are more AD people applying than there are avaialble slots at the time, the Reservists/NG and CAP folks lose out until next time.

[Tim Medeiros]

Last I knew, SOS doesn't do "books in the mail" anymore for their DL courses, it is all online.

The part that bothers me is the entirety of what I bolded in the quote, along with the following quote in the above linked page.

CAP members must be verified by HQ/CAP.  CAP members who hold military rank must meet the military rank requirements.

Note in my original quote it says CAP is not military...

[LGM30GMCC]

SOS is not books in the mail. It's all on-line. This was likely causing confusion/problems with AU and their accounting system since you can only take the course once. So if you took it through CAP you couldn't take it as AF and it screwed up the records. I wonder if they added this for ACSC as well.

[GroundHawg]

I think it is referencing people like my brother. He is still AD USAF as a MSgt and a CAP Capt. He cannot apply or attend SOS until he is out of the USAF or makes O3, regardless of what his CAP rank is.

I on the other hand, am officially (for now ) out of the military and hold no rank. So once I make Capt, I can apply and attend SOS.

Now how that affects me if I were to re-enlist afterward is another story.

[Rick-DEL]

CAP members must be verified by HQ/CAP.  CAP members who hold military rank must meet the military rank requirements.

I read this as a member being both military and CAP. If a CAP member is a major in CAP, but a 2d Lt/Ensign in the military, then they are not eligible to attend due to their military grade since it has precedence. Now, if there are open slots...I would think they may be eligible to apply as CAP. Maybe I'm right...maybe I'm wrong, who knows.

[Duke Dillio]

I know that when I was in the Army, if you were attempting to make E-5 or E-6, part of the equation was military education.  Wonder if this is to stop people from using CAP rank to take military education courses in order to promote....

[GroundHawg]

I know that when I was in the Army, if you were attempting to make E-5 or E-6, part of the equation was military education.  Wonder if this is to stop people from using CAP rank to take military education courses in order to promote....

Exactly what it is. They dont want a SRA showing up with a SOS Grad Certificate when he hasnt finished ALS yet. Neither CCAF or AU will put it on a transcript if it was earned via CAP. You can still get college credit for it, but you have to jump through some hoops.

[AirDX]

AU will put SOS on a transcript for CAP.  I did SOS and submitted an AU transcript to a school in 2011.  No hoops involved.

[JK657]

Registration
Other Student Categories including Civil Air Patrol
(Military rank takes precedence over any other ranks or grades)

Individual Mobilization Augmentee (IMA) reservists should contact their education and training POC for eligibility and enrollment procedures or email .

International officers may refer to AFI 36-2301, Paragraph 11.3 for enrollment criteria and procedures.
 
Civilians must be employed in the grade of at least GS-9, WS-8, WL-6, WG-12, DCIPS PB 2, or NAF 3/4 or above and must hold a regionally-accredited baccalaureate degree as documented in AFI 36-2301, Table 6.  Additionally, they must have a minimum performance appraisal rating of "fully successful" (AFI 36-2301, paragraph 16.2.1) 

CAP members must be verified by HQ/CAP.  CAP members who hold military rank must meet the military rank requirements.


In this case it looks like Tim is out of luck

[LGM30GMCC]

Part of me wishes the USAF would rescind this. "But it's an unfair edge for those who volunteer with CAP!" "Yeah...so? It's good training that benefits the USAF for me to have it." But hey!

[coudano]

It's a fairly new rule, apparently.
I also think it's a little silly and that they should rescind it.

[abdsp51]

Have and act of Congress or a 4 star in your back pocket? That's the only way it's going to be cut, and with the current budget issues and the threat of sequester I don't see many classes either through distance learning or in residence.

[LGM30GMCC]

Not sure how you are getting they would cut the DL option. If anything they would increase reliance on it. SOS instructors are primarily senior captains stationed at Maxwell specifically to teach. Running the online course costs very, very little for the USAF. If there are fewer in-residence courses (due to limited TDY funds) I would expect those instructors to be quite free to help facilitate the DL courses.

While base education centers are staffed by civilians who are having their hours cut (and possibly some removed entirely) it doesn't take much time to have them sit in the testing room to proctor a test.

[SARDOC]

I'm still trying to figure out why the AU would want to restrict education to anybody that would be eligible.   Active Duty service members due to deployment schedules and rotations may not be able to take the time off to attend RSC/NSC and because of their CAP rank would be eligible to attend SOS/ACSC/AWC but because they serve both their country in the military and CAP they are handicapped in advancing their CAP "career"

I thought the AU was supposed to support to the CAP by offering us this alternative so that CAP members can continue to support to Air Force as their official Auxiliary.  Unless you happen to be military as well.

I don't get it.

[Duke Dillio]

I think the bottom line is that CAP members don't really need SOS and so why should the Air Force pay for it.  With the new Officer Basic Course eliminating the old ECI-13 and SLS/CLC and RSC fairly easy to attain I don't see why any CAP officer would want to go through the SOS or AWC.  I took the SOS and it was a pain in the behind...

[AirDX]

RSC may be easy for some, but it's about a $1K investment for folks like me.  I did SOS - not only for RSC credit, but for other reasons.  Planning on doing ACSC this summer, too.  For the same reason.

[Pylon]

Well, that's annoying. CAP members taking SOS doesn't "cost" the Air Force anything. You go through an e-learning curriculum that's already set up and take exams at centers that are also already in place and would be open and running anyway.

The bummer about this is that I planned on enrolling in SOS this Fall to substitute for my RSC requirement. With all the work and other obligations on my plate, taking RSC isn't an option for many years.  But because I also happen to be an enlisted Marine, I now can't take SOS.  I'm not taking it for any benefit to my military career; the Marines could care less about SOS and likely wouldn't even know what it is.  I simply wanted to take it to advance myself in CAP after 15 years of service.

Guess I won't be making Level IV for quite some time. Bummer.

[MSG Mac]

I think the bottom line is that CAP members don't really need SOS and so why should the Air Force pay for it.  With the new Officer Basic Course eliminating the old ECI-13 and SLS/CLC and RSC fairly easy to attain I don't see why any CAP officer would want to go through the SOS or AWC.  I took the SOS and it was a pain in the behind...

The idea was that some people were circumventing the system, by joining CAP and taking the courses well before their peers were eligible. It also raises some concerns when EM were completing SOS and ACSC before their Officers did. The point is this is not aimed at CAP, but at those who are both CAP and Military and are not at least promotable O-2's in the service. CAP has Region and National Staff Colleges specifically designed for CAP. the Military has Officer and NCO courses that are designed for their members, and are not compatible to CAP. For those who fall into this very narrow minority. Take the appropriate NCO course by correspondence.   

[Pylon]

For those who fall into this very narrow minority. Take the appropriate NCO course by correspondence.

The problem is I haven't been able to find an "equivalency chart" -- the Marines don't have one "NCO Academy" and one "Staff NCO Academy" -- there's a school for nearly each rank.  There's Corporal's Course, there's Sergeant's Course (both of those are NCO ranks... so which counts as NCO school credit?  Both?  Neither?), there's Career Course for SSgt's, Advanced Course for GySgts, etc.

But yes, it would have been awesome to have Joint PME credit for Staff & Command College as an enlisted dude when most of my Captains and Majors don't have it.  Darn.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Contact Jennifer Carroll at NHQ. She is the one, I guess, that makes those decisions...

Flyer

[coudano]

For a while at least, if a CAP member completed SOS, the USAF simply wouldn't append the credit to their military record until they were at least eligible by military rank to be enrolled.  So a CAP Major could take SOS (for level 4), even though he was only a 2d Lt in the USAF...  His USAF rip wouldn't show it.  Until he became at least a Captain in the USAF, then he could send his certificate down and have it added to his record.

To me, that is a perfectly reasonable solution to the "problem" here.
Although I don't really think it's a problem at all.

I don't think it has much to do with jealosy, or 'unfair advantage' that doesn't really exist...
It is more likely related to money.  Blackboard costs money per seat per course.  Bottom line.
Someone has to foot that bill.  The end.

There *could* be something to people completing the correspondance before or in lieu of they are eligible to attend in residence.

I find the requirement to demonstrate college graduation a little silly, particularly for the correspondance version which, as far as I know, doesn't even require any writing.  But naturally any military officer already meets that wicket...  But a lot of CAP people, even if they are Captains, won't.

Quite frankly, SOS is chalk full of stuff that junior officers serving particularly in support units NEED to have as junior officers; well before mid-level Captains.  Rated officers might not be in "supervisory" leadership roles until that point, but a Security Forces bubba or a Comm or Logistics officer are very likely to be in charge of dozens of troops almost from their very first day on the job out of tech school.  Of course that is all USAF drama, and has basically nothing to do with CAP, so I digress.

[SARDOC]

I find the requirement to demonstrate college graduation a little silly, particularly for the correspondance version which, as far as I know, doesn't even require any writing.  But naturally any military officer already meets that wicket...  But a lot of CAP people, even if they are Captains, won't.

SOS/ACSC/AWC are all hosted by Air University and they technically fall under the category of Master's Level Credit.  Air University being Regionally Accredited have the degree requirement in place to placate their accrediting agency so they can maintain their accreditation.

[Ground_pounder82]

First...I have to admit that SOS is a box checker for AF guys and gals. If you have to go to that course to learn how to lead, then the CITGO down the street, they have an opening for you.  Second, if you are a CAP member and want to do the Course 20, go for it.  There is no wait list, the only logistical issue is you have to call an ed center to schedule your test.  I completed Course 20 three years ago as a new Capt on one of my middle eastern vacations.  Took a month to get done, but then again all I did is fly, eat, work-out, sleep and work on SOS.   The reason PME credit is awarded based on AF grade criteria is to prevent AF members joining CAP just to get advanced PME completed before their peers.  But the credit will definately help CAP promotion.  And yes, credit earned at ASBC (No Longer Around) SOS, ACSC and AWC are masters level credit as determined but the regional accreditor.   And the new ACSC is 100% online, no more books in the mail or ed center tests.  I am looking forward to that, meet my first O-4 board next summer and would like to get started on that ASAP!

Cherrs,
-Brewster

[PHall]

For a while at least, if a CAP member completed SOS, the USAF simply wouldn't append the credit to their military record until they were at least eligible by military rank to be enrolled.  So a CAP Major could take SOS (for level 4), even though he was only a 2d Lt in the USAF...  His USAF rip wouldn't show it.  Until he became at least a Captain in the USAF, then he could send his certificate down and have it added to his record.

To me, that is a perfectly reasonable solution to the "problem" here.
Although I don't really think it's a problem at all.

I don't think it has much to do with jealosy, or 'unfair advantage' that doesn't really exist...
It is more likely related to money.  Blackboard costs money per seat per course.  Bottom line.
Someone has to foot that bill.  The end.

There *could* be something to people completing the correspondance before or in lieu of they are eligible to attend in residence.

I find the requirement to demonstrate college graduation a little silly, particularly for the correspondance version which, as far as I know, doesn't even require any writing.  But naturally any military officer already meets that wicket...  But a lot of CAP people, even if they are Captains, won't.

Quite frankly, SOS is chalk full of stuff that junior officers serving particularly in support units NEED to have as junior officers; well before mid-level Captains.  Rated officers might not be in "supervisory" leadership roles until that point, but a Security Forces bubba or a Comm or Logistics officer are very likely to be in charge of dozens of troops almost from their very first day on the job out of tech school.  Of course that is all USAF drama, and has basically nothing to do with CAP, so I digress.

I got the Air Force to give me credit for SOS that I took via CAP.

Took about six months of back and forth between me and the Base Education office.

I think they finally gave in just to get me out of their hair!

[GroundHawg]

For a while at least, if a CAP member completed SOS, the USAF simply wouldn't append the credit to their military record until they were at least eligible by military rank to be enrolled.  So a CAP Major could take SOS (for level 4), even though he was only a 2d Lt in the USAF...  His USAF rip wouldn't show it.  Until he became at least a Captain in the USAF, then he could send his certificate down and have it added to his record.

To me, that is a perfectly reasonable solution to the "problem" here.
Although I don't really think it's a problem at all.

I don't think it has much to do with jealosy, or 'unfair advantage' that doesn't really exist...
It is more likely related to money.  Blackboard costs money per seat per course.  Bottom line.
Someone has to foot that bill.  The end.

There *could* be something to people completing the correspondance before or in lieu of they are eligible to attend in residence.

I find the requirement to demonstrate college graduation a little silly, particularly for the correspondance version which, as far as I know, doesn't even require any writing.  But naturally any military officer already meets that wicket...  But a lot of CAP people, even if they are Captains, won't.

Quite frankly, SOS is chalk full of stuff that junior officers serving particularly in support units NEED to have as junior officers; well before mid-level Captains.  Rated officers might not be in "supervisory" leadership roles until that point, but a Security Forces bubba or a Comm or Logistics officer are very likely to be in charge of dozens of troops almost from their very first day on the job out of tech school.  Of course that is all USAF drama, and has basically nothing to do with CAP, so I digress.

I got the Air Force to give me credit for SOS that I took via CAP.

Took about six months of back and forth between me and the Base Education office.

I think they finally gave in just to get me out of their hair!

Im glad that works, I will be applying in September.