Weigth standards, disabilities, and discrimination

[Nathan]

This is about to turn into a battle about obesity, isn't it?

My only point was this. We are, as the auxiliary (AKA "female dog") of the USAF, are dependant on their funding, their endorsement, their ability to assign us missions, and their parenthood in order to keep our program the way it is. As a privilege, they have offered us the ability to wear uniforms to their specifications that kind of look like theirs so long as we fit certain criteria. We are under no obligation (as individuals) to wear that uniform, as CAP provides a uniform alternative for all 18+ year old members. However, for those who fit the criteria set by the AF, we can wear the uniform they allow.

This does not mean that the uniform has to even look like an AF uniform. It could be a pink tutu with a cowboy hat that could be, while rather unattractive, still under the same criteria as the current blue uniform. Granted, no one would wear it, but those not falling under the AF standards couldn't wear it, even if they wanted to. In the same vein, the USAF could change the rules and say that only cadets can wear the USAF uniform, or that only those who are married can wear the uniform, or whatever. The point is not the uniform or the rules designating the uniform; the point is that the USAF has provided us with a uniform they have control of and that we can wear only with their blessing under their conditions. The uniform they offer us looks somewhat like theirs, so they expect that if you are going to look somewhat like a USAF member, then you have to fit the profile. Otherwise, tough. Cadets are the exception, obviously, due to their cadet status.

You can attempt to sue all you want, but CAP wouldn't and couldn't be the target to go after, as they aren't the ones setting the rules in this case. If the CORPERATE uniform was only allowed for those outside of certain requirements, you may have a case, but CAP has done its part in providing a uniform to overweight members. A unsatisfied member would instead find themselves suing the USAF for discrimination in who gets to wear the uniform in an organization where that uniform can only be worn by those who have worked to a certain criteria. Given the amount of discrimination the military has been able to justify, I highly doubt such a member would win, and if he or she did, on the slight chance, actually succeed, then all that would happen is that the USAF would either take the uniforms away from us or change them in such a way that they no longer resemble the USAF uniform at all.

Better a battle to avoid.

[Eclipse]

Not one single word of the argument of weight and uniform would be justification for a discrimination suit because there isn't a single activity or professional development opportunity of any kind which is denied to CAP members based on what uniform they are wearing.

There >are< limitations, yes, but these are based on the laws of physics (i.e. you don't fit in the plane, or are too heavy to allow for a proper aircrew, etc.), or safety of the member, etc., but this denial of participation is based on the inability to perform the function, something which is >not< protected by the ADA.

The only argument you'd have is if we said "the camo BDU is required for GTM's, and only those in weight can wear camo."  At least you'd have grounds for a complaint.

[LittleIronPilot]

The only argument you'd have is if we said "the camo BDU is required for GTM's, and only those in weight can wear camo."  At least you'd have grounds for a complaint.

Even then....so what? Discrimination is such a bad word now.

Do we want the fatties hiking through the woods? I have seen pilots struggle with W&B's and wonder if they will get the scanner in the plane (sometimes it is the pilot himself that is fat, or it is the observer).

If you have to leave a scanner behind because both people up front weigh 250lbs...well then something is wrong and the mission, yes the MISSION, is suffering because of it.

What is the deal with people thinking everything should be open to everyone, with no standards or criteria?

[Eclipse]

What is the deal with people thinking everything should be open to everyone, with no standards or criteria?

When there are standards and expectations, not everyone will meet them, those who don't might feel bad.

In the olden days, this was called "motivation", and we applauded those who made the grade, and praised "good sports" who were encouraged to work hard and "do better next time".

Today we just lower or eliminate the standards so that everyone feels equally bad.

[Tim Medeiros]

The Air Force does not have weight requirement anymore.  It was replaced with the physical fitness test.  Airmen can be as round as they want as long as they can do the 1.5 mile run, pushups, and situps (and even then there are waivers).  So if you don't like the weight standards maybe there can be a fitness test for senior members!

Got a cite for this and when this changed?  All I know is I wasn't allowed to wear the USAF uniform in AFROTC simply because I weighed over 180lbs (27.5 BMI) and even had to get written permission from the school medical office to be able to PT with the rest of the wing because of my weight.  They even taped me around the neck and waist to make sure I was out of body fat range.

Was it humiliating to be one of about 5-15 (guessing) cadets in a wing of 500 (at the beginning) to be the only ones wearing t-shirt and jeans to class and lead lab?  Yes, but it did motivate me to lose weight, unfortunately I didn't lose it fast enough, hopefully when I go back (left the school for other reasons) I'll be able to wear the uniform.

[Stonewall]

It ain't a perfect world.  When CAP first started, it was a means for those who were not fit for service to still serve.  Be it too young, too old or some medical problem forbidding a person from being paid to serve.  Getting made fun of, pointed at, ridiculed for your weight, or otherwise singled out is not easy to deal with.  I wasn't the fat kid, I was the scrawny under-weight, skinny kid that you'd think was a girl if I didn't have my hair cut short enough.  I still remember to this day going to the roller skating rink and checking out rental skates and they handed me white (girls skates).  Yep, I cried.  I was easy to pick on because people my age were a lot bigger than me.  It got so bad that in 6th grade my mom held me back a year so I'd be the same size as my fellow students.  No lie.  That happened.  

No one wants to be fat.  My neighbor in DC was (is) pushing 500 lbs.  I felt sorry for the guy, but at the same time, there wasn't a moment I didn't see him with a 64oz Big Gulp cup in his hand.  He had to buy a suburban because he couldn't fit in the Tahoe anymore.  Anyway, CAP does not discriminate.  Like it or not; agree with it or not, we don't discriminate.  Would I love to have 55,000 healthy members in CAP, standing tall, physically fit, sharp as a tac?  Well, not really.  I'm sure if that was the make-up of our membership, they'd all leave and go become SWAT cops, Eco Challenge competitors, SEALs, and PJs.  We're human and humans gain weight.  I battled weight after a year long depression in 1998.  I gained 35 lbs in one year after returning from Bosnia only to come home to nothing.  No woman, no home, no family.  I just ate my way to happiness.  Then, a year later I had to take the Army PT test for the ARNG and had to get taped because I was overweight.  I barely survived the 2 mile run, but that was it.  That was the final straw.  A year after that, I maxed the APFT with a 300, just like 2 years before.  

I want people to be healthy, look good and make us look good.  But I'm not Hitler and I won't breed blond haired blue eyed perfect beings to make up the ranks of the CAP.  If someone is too heavy to go on a ground team sortie and they don't realize that they're a risk, step up and tell them respectfully.  If not, you'll be like a July 4, 1993 mission in southern Virginia where members of the local SAR group as well as a couple "CAP Rangers" from a senior squadron in VA got evacuated out due to heat related injuries.  Nope, these weren't the 190 lb 6 ft guys, these were the 275 lb 5' 9" dudes.  You just have to step up and admit that you're not physically able to do what a healthy person can do.  SAR can be a physically demanding task.  But that doesn't mean there is no place for the hefty guy with a beard.

FYI...a statistic on the show Biggest Loser said that by 2015, 75% of the US population will be overweight.  People have medical problems that make them heavy.  There are hereditary issues that one can't control.  But if you can control it, you need to.  For your sake and that of your family and friends.

[aveighter]

We see that you have a hatred toward people over-weight.  You are the person that makes this nation suck sometimes. 

Actually I am one of the many people expending much time and effort combatting the results of obesity and its terrible manifestations on the various organ systems (cardiovascular in my area of interest).  If I hate anything it is the havoc wreaked on otherwise productive lives and wonderful people by this (for the most part) willful process of mass consumption, sugar swilling and lack of physical activity.  And don't quote medical science on the matter because you are way out of your league there.  While there is some merit to the literature you mentioned, for the most part it is merely an effort to formalize an excuse.

The rest of your rant kind of makes my point.  You have motivation and exercise discipline to achieve a result.  You changed yourself.  Congratulations!  Your height/weight secondary to muscle argument is valid but irrelevant to this discussion.

I am 5'8" and 162 pounds.  My pilots license at issue shows 68" and 142 pounds.  I stepped off the bus at Quantico at 68" and 120 pounds.  I understand the battle as the body ages and metabolic conditions change.  At 120 pounds and 5'8" (thats finally as a senior) I didn't do much food throwing or picking on anyone.  Far to hazardous.

As a Military Officer we expect more of you.  Pat yourself on the back for the hard work and don't complain or jump on the excuse bandwagon.  Motivate others as you motivated yourself.  It sounds like you are a tremendous example of success.  Use it.

[Eclipse]

The Air Force does not have weight requirement anymore.  It was replaced with the physical fitness test.  Airmen can be as round as they want as long as they can do the 1.5 mile run, pushups, and situps (and even then there are waivers).  So if you don't like the weight standards maybe there can be a fitness test for senior members!

The Air Force recruiting site begs to differ:
http://www.airforce.com/training/enlisted/index.php

[CAP Producer]

It's definitely not a a perfect world. I am very overweight. But that's my problem.

Years ago I was very angry that I could not wear BDU's by order of my Wing Commander. A bunch of folks at encampment thought I would not present a proper image to our AF brothers.

So I said OK and went to encampment with several sets of the aviator combo and wore them all week. Wore them every day for everything, correctly. No headgear, shined shoes and correct insignia. Did the same for our flight academy.

I was able to hang with the pretty boys in their AF suits. I got the job done.

Did that for a few years and the blue BDU came out. Got one and wore it.

The new Corporate Service Dress came out and I got it, then burned my grays.

I still feel self conscious about wearing the uniform mostly about what people think. That's not going to change because people are focused on the externals. Let's face it most people are pretty vain. So I don't wear it unless absolutely necessary.

I hope to be able to wear the AF style uniforms some day. Just so I can say to the uniform Nazis out there that I prefer to wear my uniform. The CAP Uniform.

The way I look at is is that if I am not good enough to wear your (the AF) uniform when was fat what is the difference now other than losing weight.

For the record I am a former national PAO of the year, member of a Region and Wing Staff and have so many awards and decs for outstanding service that I have lost track of them all.

Long ago I decided that (if I could) I would NEVER wear the USAF style uniforms.

They are just not good enough for me. 

Bottom line it's not the uniform. It's what's underneath that counts.

There are a whole lot of members walking around in their AF Uniforms who don't contribute spit to the organization. There are allot of us fat and fuzzy people who contribute allot to it's success.

Sorry about the rant, but this is a very sore subject with me.

[RiverAux]

Other threads have the cite, but you only have to meet old-fashioned basic height-weight requirements to JOIN the AF.   

[pixelwonk]

"fatties"
"militant obese"
"overfed goober"
...nice 

This has been beaten to death before with no amicable conclusions, and there sure is a whole lotta hatin goin on in this thread.

Way to go. I'm going to lock this now and go have a sandwich.