Wow! CAP orders 36 New Airplanes

Started by etodd, May 21, 2023, 12:08:54 AM

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etodd

Quote from: Fubar on May 24, 2023, 09:59:57 PM..... should focus on training kids to fly for the Air Force.

Or elsewhere. The Cadet I just finished training for his PPL has been accepted to the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis this Fall.  :)
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

jeders

Quote from: NIN on May 24, 2023, 03:55:21 PM
Quote from: HandsomeWalt_USMC on May 21, 2023, 12:34:34 PMOne of the things Gen Phelka spoke of during conference this weekend was a plan to pay for pilots to get their CFI in order to instruct cadets, with the expectation that they'll donate their time for two flight academies to repay the training. Very cool idea. He also specifically indicated that those new 172s are being purchased with flight training in mind.

This^^ (HandsomeWalt & I were at the same conference, heard the same words out of the General's mouth).

The only concern about fleet mix that I have is that 172s are, by and large, not super great platforms for other missions...

Yes and no, it all depends on what part of the country you're in. In the northeast and out on the west coast and in the Rockies, absolutely agree, the high/hot makes it difficult to maneuver safely. But for most of the rest of the country, 172s are great platforms for any number of missions (photo/DA, intercept training, fire watch, route surveys, SAR, etc.) even with 600+ pounds of crew on a 100+ degree day.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

PHall

Quote from: etodd on May 25, 2023, 03:36:05 AM
Quote from: Fubar on May 24, 2023, 09:59:57 PM..... should focus on training kids to fly for the Air Force.

Or elsewhere. The Cadet I just finished training for his PPL has been accepted to the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis this Fall.  :)

I've had three cadets in the last three years get their PPL via $10,000 scholarships from the EAA.
Working their monthly Young Eagles flights pays off!

NIN

Quote from: jeders on May 25, 2023, 09:46:15 PMYes and no, it all depends on what part of the country you're in. In the northeast and out on the west coast and in the Rockies, absolutely agree, the high/hot makes it difficult to maneuver safely. But for most of the rest of the country, 172s are great platforms for any number of missions (photo/DA, intercept training, fire watch, route surveys, SAR, etc.) even with 600+ pounds of crew on a 100+ degree day.

We're not exactly "high/hot" here. I'm 30 miles from the ocean and the local airpatch sits at 231' MSL.  Our biggest mountain is 6,288' MSL and we have plenty of time to climb if we need to fly directly over it for some reason. Highest airport is just shy of 1100' MSL.

We could probably stand to not put much gas in the plane. Its not like we ever fly needing that much endurance.  The state is pretty small :)

But when the plane doesn't come equipped from the factory with a DF unit, or a camera window (we had to have that added), the utility is still lacking.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
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etodd

Quote from: NIN on May 29, 2023, 02:30:02 PMBut when the plane doesn't come equipped from the factory with a DF unit....


Are we making assumptions here, or have they said these 36 new planes will not have DFs?

If not, maybe the big 2021 Air Force study concluded that since 95% of the saves are the cell phone forenics team, maybe its time to cut back airborne DF? Let the ground crews get the few remaining beacons in the hangars. IDK?

Anyone seen the AF 2021 report?
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

NIN

Quote from: etodd on May 30, 2023, 03:06:45 AMAre we making assumptions here, or have they said these 36 new planes will not have DFs?

If not, maybe the big 2021 Air Force study concluded that since 95% of the saves are the cell phone forenics team, maybe its time to cut back airborne DF? Let the ground crews get the few remaining beacons in the hangars. IDK?

Anyone seen the AF 2021 report?

I have seen the AF 2021 report.  No matter what that report says, ELTs, EPIRBs and PLBs require a DF, not Cell Phone Forensics.

And I have a "new" Cessna 172 G1000Nxi that came w/o a DF and camera window from the factory.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

heliodoc

WOW!

Got a link to that AF 2021 report? :-\

etodd

Quote from: NIN on May 31, 2023, 08:48:20 PMNo matter what that report says, ELTs, EPIRBs and PLBs require a DF, not Cell Phone Forensics.


Of course, but maybe its a numbers and stats issue now. The difference in "finds", an ELT in someone's house going off, and a true "Save" where a person's life was saved. How do all the stats play out now? What are the stats? The new ELTs and PLBs sendout gps coords. First responders go direct almost immediately. Much less need for crews to get dressed head to the airport and be in the air 2 hours later to try and triangulate an area for a ground team to begin working.

What are the stats?  Obviously the AF isn't seeing the need.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

PHall

Quote from: etodd on June 01, 2023, 12:02:04 AM
Quote from: NIN on May 31, 2023, 08:48:20 PMNo matter what that report says, ELTs, EPIRBs and PLBs require a DF, not Cell Phone Forensics.


Of course, but maybe its a numbers and stats issue now. The difference in "finds", an ELT in someone's house going off, and a true "Save" where a person's life was saved. How do all the stats play out now? What are the stats? The new ELTs and PLBs sendout gps coords. First responders go direct almost immediately. Much less need for crews to get dressed head to the airport and be in the air 2 hours later to try and triangulate an area for a ground team to begin working.

What are the stats?  Obviously the AF isn't seeing the need.



Well, when was the last time you actually used the DF in the airplane? And how many times in the past year have you used it? Live missions only, not training missions please.

etodd

#29
Quote from: PHall on June 01, 2023, 12:32:09 AMWell, when was the last time you actually used the DF in the airplane? And how many times in the past year have you used it? Live missions only, not training missions please.

Once about three years ago to find an ELT from a boat, nowhere near the water, in a salvage yard. Surprised the battery worked. LOLOLOL

Agree with the AF. New planes don't need DF.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

NIN

Quote from: PHall on June 01, 2023, 12:32:09 AMWell, when was the last time you actually used the DF in the airplane? And how many times in the past year have you used it? Live missions only, not training missions please.

I know for sure we used a DF for a live PLB mission about 3 years ago. Wait, its 2023. It was longer than that. So no, we haven't had an airborne DF actual mission in the last year.

CAP has a number of core competencies, one of which is airbone electronic search. We do have a need for that sort of capability. ELTs, EPIRBs and PLBs on 406mhz and 121.5.

When we get particularly difficult PLB or EPIRB activations, sometimes its our ability to DF the signal (air or ground) versus the ground folk attempting to use the GPS reporting that is the difference between a save and a recovery.

We had a PLB activation here in 2017 that was particular challenging: the satellite-reported GPS positions were spread over an appx 15 square mile mountainous area. Unfortunately, due to the weather conditions our crew was unable to get down in the weeds to DF that signal (100kt winds in the target area, 6,200ft mountains, plus undercast and snow). We were able to give some locations that were narrowed down to one side of the mountain versus the other, so even reducing the potential search areas by half can be helpful to volunteer SAR teams getting blown off the mountain.

The question is not "do we still do it?" The question is "do we wish to maintain the capability?"  From where I sit, that capability is something we bring to the table as a key differnetiator from other orgs. If we stop doing it, and its still needed, SomeoneElse™ will pick up that ball and there's yet another potential mission set we've lost.

Its like the USAF: Just because they haven't had to deliver a nuclear weapon in the last 78 years doesn't mean that don't need to maintain the capability to do so.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SarDragon

Quote from: etodd on June 01, 2023, 06:35:55 PMOnce about three years to find an ELT from a boat, nowhere near the water, in a salvage yard. Surprised the battery worked. LOLOLOL

Agree with the AF. New planes don't need DF.

I've done two of those, many moons ago. The batteries are pretty sturdy physically, and the unit gets turned on when it gets jostled around, so it doesn't transmit all that long.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

NIN

BTW, appropos of the DF question: I believe the  new 182 still come with a Rho-Theta, so this capability discussion is a moot point, really.

But in our case: current 1/3 of my fleet are 172s. Counting aircraft down for mx, etc, you might come to a mission and there's 2 182s and 2 172s on the ramp. And one of those 172s is not DF equipped, so now thats an "AP or high-bird only" sortie.

Unless and until I have a larger contingent of CFIs willing to do cadet flight training, 172s have a much lesser degree of utility for us than 182s.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd

Quote from: NIN on June 01, 2023, 07:33:31 PMUnless and until I have a larger contingent of CFIs willing to do cadet flight training ....



"Had a successful pilot career? Help us train the next generation!"

Need the big marketing push.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Larry Mangum

I can tell you, that a mission that I am a project officer for, has been requested by our client, to fly the fastest aircraft CAP can field. C-182 and non-turbo C-206 are no longer sufficient for the mission objective. They still want us with our C-182 and C-206s but would prefer we provide a faster aircraft. I could not tell you what that should be, but the need is there.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

PHall

Quote from: Larry Mangum on June 02, 2023, 02:25:18 AMI can tell you, that a mission that I am a project officer for, has been requested by our client, to fly the fastest aircraft CAP can field. C-182 and non-turbo C-206 are no longer sufficient for the mission objective. They still want us with our C-182 and C-206s but would prefer we provide a faster aircraft. I could not tell you what that should be, but the need is there.

I wonder if there's still some O-2's in the boneyard?

coudano

Quote from: etodd on June 01, 2023, 12:02:04 AMThe new ELTs and PLBs sendout gps coords.

Meh...

If they are hooked up to do so, they will give the last good fix that the unit received.
Yep in those cases it's probably unlikely that CAP gets the callout in the first place.
The last good fix may or may not be "near" the final crash site, for lots of reasons.

So logically, we're going to get the ones that aren't hooked up for that, or those hookups aren't working correctly.  Which is rarer, but not zero.

Also if it's registered, the registered owner is likely to get a phone call when their beacon starts going off.  When pilot joe picks up the phone and finds out his beacon is going off he just goes and shuts it off.  That's a lot of callouts that CAP used to go on that we don't do anymore.  However, not all of them get registered, nor is the registration data always current/correct.

So logically if we are going on a search, there's a good chance it's for one that fits this description.


The number of these things we do since back when I started has definitely gone way down.  But it's not zero.


I'm just old fashioned enough and slightly suspicious of high availability technology enough, that I wouldn't drop the skillset just yet.

There's always tuning it on the NavComm and using wing null.  Not as sensitive of a receiver, and not as precise of a bearing, but you can get the job done with it.   I'd say that the number of wing null 'proficient' pilots is much smaller than the number of becker proficient pilots, though.

blackrain

Quote from: etodd on June 02, 2023, 12:53:19 AM
Quote from: NIN on June 01, 2023, 07:33:31 PMUnless and until I have a larger contingent of CFIs willing to do cadet flight training ....



"Had a successful pilot career? Help us train the next generation!"

Need the big marketing push.

Been a minute since I last logged on CAPTALK (Great to see you FLYING PIG!) but we're having this very conversation in our wing. Definitely agree the long pole will be the number of CFIs which at the moment looks decent here in our little corner but can really fluctuate over time no matter how many 172s we buy. Also if the perception is the overwhelming focus is on instruction, then the unspoken message is "Only CFI's need apply" Don't underestimate the ES mission's ability to allow time building/seasoning as pilots look beyond initial training. Falcon Virgo is a prime example of the need for 182s for the mission. I would say if the government really wants consistent training for cadets they should just fund slots with the local FBO IMHO.
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly" PVT Murphy

NIN

Interestingly, one of my wing's pilots was selected over the summer to attend CAP's USAF-funded CFI training program.   I didn't know this, but basically if you're a CAP pilot with a commercial certificate and an instrument rating, you're on the "potential candidate" list for this program. (new one on me, I was [today] years old when I read that this morning)

King CFI course materials, online ground school, then three weeks at an academy in Texas where you get 25-30-ish hrs and your checkride.

In return, you agree to give CAP your newly obtained CFI skillz for 6 events or activities (flight academies, basically) or 40hrs of flight instruction for cadets in the next five years. Senior flight instruction, orientation flights and "out of category" flight academies don't count. So if you got an Airplane CFI in addition to your CFI-G, teaching at a glider academy doens't count toward that 6.

Seem like a great deal if you qualify and have the time.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

blackrain

Quote from: NIN on December 20, 2023, 02:28:26 PMInterestingly, one of my wing's pilots was selected over the summer to attend CAP's USAF-funded CFI training program.  I didn't know this, but basically if you're a CAP pilot with a commercial certificate and an instrument rating, you're on the "potential candidate" list for this program. (new one on me, I was [today] years old when I read that this morning)

King CFI course materials, online ground school, then three weeks at an academy in Texas where you get 25-30-ish hrs and your checkride.

In return, you agree to give CAP your newly obtained CFI skillz for 6 events or activities (flight academies, basically) or 40hrs of flight instruction for cadets in the next five years. Senior flight instruction, orientation flights and "out of category" flight academies don't count. So if you got an Airplane CFI in addition to your CFI-G, teaching at a glider academy doens't count toward that 6.

Seem like a great deal if you qualify and have the time.

I agree if it works for you (collective you lol) it can help the overall mission. I saw a survey on this some time ago asking if I was interested but my understanding was in reality the focus was on minorities becoming CFIs. Of course, that is a political hot potato I personally try hard to avoid. I would venture most CFIs out there are doing it to build the time to move on to bigger and better things and once they get to where they want instructing drops way down the list. On another note, if you are near an AFB or otherwise have a contingent of former Air Force pilots their IP time in the military means they're 90 percent to a civilian CFI. Based on what they did in the military some have to get the single engine add-on.
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly" PVT Murphy