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SFO ->Capt

Started by Becks, June 13, 2006, 04:58:25 PM

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Becks

I think I read somewhere that time in as a SFO can allow for that member to be promoted to Capt when they turn 21.  Does anyone know the TiG as SFO required for this?

BBATW

AlphaSigOU

#1
Reference: CAPR 35-3

Minimum TIG and promotion requirement for flight officers:

SM to FO = completion of Level 1 and 3 months TIG as a SM.

FO to TFO = technician rating and 6 months TIG as an FO

TFO to SFO = completion of Level II and 12 months as TFO.

At 21 the flight officer grades convert to the following officer grades, commensurate with appropriate senior member training completion:

FO = 2d Lt (complete Level I/CPPT)

TFO = 1st Lt (complete Technician rating in any specialty)

SFO = Capt (complete requirements of Level II (COP), which are SLS attendance, tech rating and AFAIDL 13)

Former cadets who have earned the following milestone awards and who are under 21 are directly appointed to the following flight officer grades:

Wright Brothers = none (start as SM and earn FO after 3 months)

Mitchell = FO (2d Lt at 21)

Earhart/Eaker = TFO (1st Lt at 21)

Spaatz = SFO (Capt at 21)

Level 1 training is waived for those former cadets who have earned the Mitchell Award or higher and have less than 2 years' break in membership. CPPT is not waived.

Hope this helps.

<-- former TFO way back when I went from cadet to the dark side... never mind I had a 17-year break in membership!  ;D
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Becks

So is that to say that if I were to say, be promoted to SFO tomorrow, and then turned 21 in two days I would be a Capt even with almost no TiG as SFO?

BBATW

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Becks on June 13, 2006, 05:21:01 PM
So is that to say that if I were to say, be promoted to SFO tomorrow, and then turned 21 in two days I would be a Capt even with almost no TiG as SFO?

Only if you have completed all senior training requirements. If you have completed all requirements for Level II (SLS, AFAIDL 13, tech rating) and you were an FO or a TFO, you'd be awarded Captain when you turned 21. Only ones who get Capt with a free pass are Spaatzen. Even then, they must complete Level II and Level III requirements, plus 3 years TIG for promotion to Major.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

Becks

Thank you for the explanation lieutenant.  ;D

BBATW

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Becks on June 13, 2006, 05:44:22 PM
Thank you for the explanation lieutenant.  ;D

No problem at all... glad to help.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040

MIKE

Quote from: Becks on June 13, 2006, 05:21:01 PM
So is that to say that if I were to say, be promoted to SFO tomorrow, and then turned 21 in two days I would be a Capt even with almost no TiG as SFO?

Negative... You would be a 1st Lt.  You would need 18 months TIG as an SFO to be promoted to Capt at 21 since you don't have Spaatz.  See CAPR 35-5 Fig. 2.

Mike Johnston

Becks

ahh ok, its was that 18 months number that I was originally looking for.

BBATW

MIKE

Quote from: Becks on June 13, 2006, 09:31:38 PM
ahh ok, its was that 18 months number that I was originally looking for.

The thing to remember is that time in grade as a flight officer is not equal to that of the equivalent officer grade at 21, but you can use your TIG as a flight officer toward promotion after 21 if it's not equal before then.
Mike Johnston

BillB

To answer your question on time in grade, How did you get SFO in the first place? Did you get it because of an Earhart? What qualifications have you met, for 2Lt and 1Lt as well as Capt? Eighteen months as an SFO does not mean you get initial appointment as Capt at age 21. Keep in mind National has no record of flight officer grades, you're only listed as a senior member. So a form 2 getting there showing 18 months as a senior member would only get you 2Lt as initial appointment
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

MIKE

BillB, go look at CAPR 35-5 Figure 2.  It is on page 5 of the regulation.

Mike Johnston

BlackKnight

#11
...
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

JaL5597

Quote from: BlackKnight on June 14, 2006, 08:28:02 PM
This is a timely topic because we have a similar problem developing in my squadron.

Consider:

An Earhart cadet transfers to senior membership, 11 months before turning 21. 
He qualifies for the grade of TFO because of his Earhart.

While a TFO, he progresses in specialty tracks and completes senior training through level II.

11 months later he's 21.  The regs require that his grade be changed to 1Lt. (There's no option to stay TFO for one more month to get promoted to SFO.)

Now at this point the regs (CAPR 35-5 Figure 2) say the TIG requirement for Captain are "18 months as 1Lt or SFO".   So credit for the 11 months TIG as an "Earhart TFO" are completely lost.  At age 21 the TIG clock resets and he needs 18 more months just like any newly minted 1Lt. He's at exactly the same place TIG-wise as an Earhart cadet who leaves CAP at say, age 17, goes to college, the returns to CAP at age 21 to claim 1Lt grade.  

It appears that former Earhart cadets who stay active in our program (and in this case holding down sqdn staff duty positions) are shortchanged on time-in-grade because they effectively get no credit for it.

The only way I see to work this system is to encourage Earhart cadets to transfer to TFO status immediately upon turning 18 if they don't think they're in line to get their Spaatz before turning 21.  As a Deputy Commander in a composite squadron, that's not a message I want to convey. Good cadet officers are rare enough as it is. The last thing we need is to be "ejecting" our best leadership cadets out of the cadet program before their time. 
 
Or am I missing something?


The way I read it you should be able to combind the 1st Lt and SFO time in grade.  There should be no reason to peanilize the person for their turning 21. 

If I was in the position of losing TIG over turning 21 I would be really pissed.

But thats just me.

MIKE

Key words:

Quote from: CAPR 35-5 Figure 2.12 months as 2d Lt or TFO
(or combination thereof)

18 months as 1st Lt or SFO
(or combination thereof)

Emphasis mine.
Mike Johnston

ZigZag911

Quote from: BlackKnight on June 14, 2006, 08:28:02 PM
  At age 21 the TIG clock resets and he needs 18 more months just like any newly minted 1Lt.


The intent of the reg seems to be that whether one becomes an FO by 'special appointment' (recognizing cadet milestone awards earned) or 'duty performance' (becoming senior while under 21 without a Mitchell or better), the TIG served in the flight officer grades counts toward promotion in the 'commissioned' grades.

In other words, no reason to 're-set the clock'.

arajca

The TIG as TFO counts toward 2d Lt, not 1st lt. TIG as SFO counts toward 1st Lt. So, for the TFO, the clock does reset at 21.

Kind of like who TIG as 2d Lt doesn't count toward Capt.

Also, in the given scenario, at 21 the TFO would become a 2d Lt, not 1st Lt, until the CAPF 2 is submitted with his Earhart promotion to 1st Lt. At which time, the clock resets to 1st Lt - Capt time.

True, it is unfair in this scenario, but this scenario is an exception to the norm. We can argue the 'intent' of the regs all day long, but in the end, what is in black and white is the reg. And the reg says TIG as a TFo counts toward 1st Lt, not Capt.

lordmonar

#16
Okay...I don't understand something.......a Spaatz Cadet is equal to a SFO and automatically gets Capt at 21.

but an regular SFO (minimum of 21 months TIS) is only a 1st Lt at 21?

Also...it appears you get no credit for being an FO at all.

Is it possible that figure 2 is wrong?

That the TIG requirement for 1st Lt should read 12 months as 2d Lt or FO (or combination thereof) and captain should read 18 months as 1st Lt or TFO (or combination thereof).

So....turn 21 before completing SFO only requires extra time in grade before catching up to those who complete SFO while still under 21.

The way it is now....you have Spaatz=SFO=Capt vs.  12 months TIG as TFO=SFO=1st Lt.

This also raises the problem with Earhart=TFO=1st Lt.

So...we are penalizing our non-prior cadet FO's.  An ex Earhart is under a normal SFO but once they both turn 21 they are now the same rank.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Becks

See this is my current problem with the transition ranks.  Is it a good idea they made them? Perhaps.  But they seem to have left alot of grey areas regarding them, leaving many members, myself included confused on issues such as this.  It just seems like the transition ranks were quickly cobbled together with not alot of thought behind them on NHQ's part.

BBATW

lordmonar

Quote from: Becks on June 15, 2006, 03:54:03 PM
See this is my current problem with the transition ranks.  Is it a good idea they made them? Perhaps.  But they seem to have left alot of grey areas regarding them, leaving many members, myself included confused on issues such as this.  It just seems like the transition ranks were quickly cobbled together with not alot of thought behind them on NHQ's part.

I agree....it is obvious that no one really analyzed the rules as the wrote them, and that leaves us trying to work through them out in the field.

Was the intent of the reg to make all SFO's Captain or 1st Lt?  If the latter, why do Spaatz Cadets get to jump up to Capt?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ZigZag911

Quote from: arajca on June 15, 2006, 03:33:10 AM
The TIG as TFO counts toward 2d Lt, not 1st lt. TIG as SFO counts toward 1st Lt. So, for the TFO, the clock does reset at 21.

Kind of like who TIG as 2d Lt doesn't count toward Capt.

Also, in the given scenario, at 21 the TFO would become a 2d Lt, not 1st Lt, until the CAPF 2 is submitted with his Earhart promotion to 1st Lt. At which time, the clock resets to 1st Lt - Capt time.

True, it is unfair in this scenario, but this scenario is an exception to the norm. We can argue the 'intent' of the regs all day long, but in the end, what is in black and white is the reg. And the reg says TIG as a TFo counts toward 1st Lt, not Capt.

Have another look at the table shown under paragraph 11b, Section B, of CAPR 35-5. Under the column 'time in grade' for promotion to 1 Lt is says '12 months as 2 lt or TFO or combination thereof'; for promotion to Captain it states '18 months as 1 Lt or SFO or combination thereof'.