State vs. National Guard vs Foreign Awards

Started by zippy, July 09, 2019, 04:53:46 AM

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zippy

The recent regulations say that National Guard awards are not authorized, but older regulations do not mention them. When they mean National Guard awards do they mean state awards? The Federal National Guard Awards are the same as the Reserves awards. The reserves are Federal, so they get only Federal medals. The National Guard is state and Federal, so Federal National Guard awards are the same as the Reserves, as is Air Force Reserve. State awards come from the 55 state and territories and are all different. There are only a handful of Federal National Guard awards and they are the same the reservists get. Are the regulations saying that if the same award is given to both a reservist and a guardsman, the reservist can wear it but not the guardsman?

I speculate that they mean state awards given by state governments as opposed to Federally recognized awards, but I am not sure.

The list of awards authorized are all awards recognized by the Federal government. Even the foreign awards authorized are recognized by Congress as are the Jr RTOC. It would seem to follow that anything the Federal Government recognizes is authorized. There is a reason the National Guard is called "National."

The foreign awards that are recognized by Congress is a strange list that includes civilian awards, civilian orders of chivalry, etc., that give these civilian foreign awards a recognition that state military awards do not get. It does not sound like Congress is so patriotic in this regard.

Quote
11.1.7. National Guard ribbons and medals are not authorized on USAF-style or Corporate
uniforms.
11.2. Wear of Awards.
11.2.1. Precedence. The general order of precedence for wear of awards is 1) US Federal Awards,
2) CAP Awards, 3) JROTC/ROTC awards, and 4) Foreign Awards.
11.2.1.1. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on
USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards
will not be worn.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: zippy on July 09, 2019, 04:53:46 AM
The recent regulations say that National Guard awards are not authorized, but older regulations do not mention them. When they mean National Guard awards do they mean state awards? The Federal National Guard Awards are the same as the Reserves awards. The reserves are Federal, so they get only Federal medals. The National Guard is state and Federal, so Federal National Guard awards are the same as the Reserves, as is Air Force Reserve. State awards come from the 55 state and territories and are all different. There are only a handful of Federal National Guard awards and they are the same the reservists get. Are the regulations saying that if the same award is given to both a reservist and a guardsman, the reservist can wear it but not the guardsman?

I speculate that they mean state awards given by state governments as opposed to Federally recognized awards, but I am not sure.

The list of awards authorized are all awards recognized by the Federal government. Even the foreign awards authorized are recognized by Congress as are the Jr RTOC. It would seem to follow that anything the Federal Government recognizes is authorized. There is a reason the National Guard is called "National."

The foreign awards that are recognized by Congress is a strange list that includes civilian awards, civilian orders of chivalry, etc., that give these civilian foreign awards a recognition that state military awards do not get. It does not sound like Congress is so patriotic in this regard.

Quote
11.1.7. National Guard ribbons and medals are not authorized on USAF-style or Corporate
uniforms.
11.2. Wear of Awards.
11.2.1. Precedence. The general order of precedence for wear of awards is 1) US Federal Awards,
2) CAP Awards, 3) JROTC/ROTC awards, and 4) Foreign Awards.
11.2.1.1. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on
USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards
will not be worn.

I'm not sure where you are going with this or why, but the prohibition on National Guard awards applies to State awards awards presented by State governments. For example, the Texas Medal of Honor, New York State Conspicuous Service Medal, California National Guard Medal of Valor.

JROTC and ROTC ribbons are only worn by persons currently enrolled in either program.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Fester

The regulation seems pretty clear cut to me.
1stLt, CAP
Squadron CC
Group CPO
Eaker - 1996

NIN

You keep using the word "Federal" in a way that makes me think you're not sure what it means.

Both the Active Duty and Reserves use the same awards and ribbons. There are a few Reserve-specific awards (ie. The Reserve Component Achievement Medal), but  other awards are the same (ie. The National Defense Service Medal) and they are all "federal" awards and ribbons.

The prohibition is on state-specific awards that are not worn on a "federal" uniform. Our uniform wear allowed by the Air Force is broadly national and thus more like the Reserves in terms of category.

In theory, a National Guard soldier or airmen could serve his or her entire enlistment beyond IET without ever leaving the state (for Guard reasons), and wouldn't ever have to "take off" any state-specific awards if they were "federalized" for some reason. But by that same theory, some Guard folks might need to keep a second ribbon rack handy without state awards just in case they wind up in a different duty status.

But if a Guard soldier or airman goes active duty,  those state awards don't get worn on their active duty uniform.

If the adjutant general of a state becomes the Chief of the National Guard, a federal position (and, I think, Title 10 vs Title 32, but I do get confused by those often), then they would only wear federal awards on their uniform during that time.

I have a state National Guard award. The ribbon looks exactly like the Air SAR ribbon. I used to put it on my rack (back when I was a 1st Lt/Capt) just to see who was paying attention. It was always a sharp-eyed cadet: "Sir, why do you have two Air SAR ribbons?"
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

MSG Mac

The Ribbons and Awards that are common to the Active and reserve components are all created by federal law, the NG receives these awards in their dual capacity as reservists. State Awards are created by state laws and are so varied that the same ribbon can mean different things depending on where you're from.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

zippy

#5
Is it correct to say anything recognized by the 5 Federal services can be worn on a CAP uniform, as in the ribbons in the below image?
The regulations are a bit confusing. It says that Federal awards can be worn, then says National Guard awards cannot be. This is what I say that they must mean "state" awards cannot be worn. For example, the Reserve Component Achievement medal (see below image of US Federal medals) is not only given out by the National Guard, but it actually says "National Guard" on it. The NCO ribbon looks exactly the same for active duty and NG, and is awarded by active army and the National Guard.

Quote11.2.1.1. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on
USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards
will not be worn.


Ozzy

#6
Quote from: zippy on July 09, 2019, 03:07:58 PM
Is it correct to say anything recognized by the 5 Federal services can be worn on a CAP uniform, as in the ribbons in the below image?
The regulations are a bit confusing. It says that Federal awards can be worn, then says National Guard awards cannot be. This is what I say that they must mean "state" awards cannot be worn. For example, the Reserve Component Achievement medal (see below image of US Federal medals) is not only given out by the National Guard, but it actually says "National Guard" on it. The NCO ribbon looks exactly the same for active duty and NG, and is awarded by active army and the National Guard.

Quote11.2.1.1. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on
USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards
will not be worn.



All of those awards are federal awards. State awards, are state level awards such as those found here: http://dmna.ny.gov/awards/

I have several of them from my time in the New York National Guard. However while I can wear them on my Army Uniform while under my normal duties as a National Guardsman. I cannot wear them on  my CAP uniform as they are state-awards and CAP wears the uniform based on the Federal wear guidance. If a national guardsman is activated under title 10 (Federal Active Duty) orders, they have to take off any state awards.

The basis of all this is that National Guardsmen are state "employees" serving under title 32 orders. This is why they can assist easily during state emergencies and perform certain duties such as security at JFK airport and Penn Station. However when they deploy overseas or are federally activated, they do so under title 10 orders. Under title 10, Guardsmen are federal "employees" and fall under all the restrictions on federal forces.

Hopefully I made it a little clearer for you. I served several years under Title 32 State Active Duty orders and while I was doing near everything an Active Duty Soldier would be doing, since I didn't serve under title 10 orders, I don't get some of the benefits Active Duty soldiers get such as Post 9-11 GI bill, or burial in a national cemetery (That I served 3 years performing Military Honors in!). That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Edit: And no, not anything recognized by any of the 5 branches can be worn. Only those recognized by the USAF on the Federal USAF uniform. I can't wear my Infantry cord or marksmanship badge but if I had a ranger tab or jump wings I could as the AF recognizes them and allows them to be worn on the AF uniform.
Ozyilmaz, MSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, 17
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
GAWG Encampment 18, 19
FLWG Winter Encampment 19

xyzzy

Quote from: zippy on July 09, 2019, 03:07:58 PM
Is it correct to say anything recognized by the 5 Federal services can be worn on a CAP uniform, as in the ribbons in the below image?
.
.
.
Quote11.2.1.1. US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on
USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903. National Guard awards
will not be worn.

AFI 36-2903 contains these paragraphs:
Quote11.5.44. United States Nonmilitary Decorations. (listed below are a follow examples of awards by federal agencies)...

11.5.44.9. Wear only those decoration and ribbons awarded by federal agencies and earned while in military service.
Among the federal non-military awards mentioned are the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the Gold and Silver Lifesaving Medal, and those are only examples. So federal awards are not limited to military awards.

Shuman 14

I've always found the rule against wearing National Guard Awards silly especially when the wear of Foreign Decorations is allowed. I'm not just talking about CAP but the Armed Forces as well.

I always point to Hurricane Katrina. The State of Louisiana took great pains to properly recognize the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, Coast Guardsmen, National Guardsmen, SDF, CAP, USCGAux, Civilian and Foreign National Responders. They pretty much awarded every responder personally the Louisiana Emergency Service Medal and every "unit" the Governor's Unit citation the Louisiana F.E. Herbert Meritorious Unit Commendation .

Individuals who went above and beyond were also recognized with various awards (Louisiana Cross of Merit, Louisiana Commendation Medal and Louisiana Achievement Ribbon) depending on what they did.

But unless you are National Guard or State Defense Force... you can't wear them.

On the other hand, go have a friendship shooting day with the German Armed Forces, and you get a Schützenschnur, you get to wear that. (Well, at least the Army does.)

I think it's disrespectful to the States and to the State Military Forces (ARNG, ANG, SDF) that their awards are regulated to a second class status.

But that's just me.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

Quote from: shuman14 on July 10, 2019, 02:40:51 PM
But unless you are National Guard or State Defense Force... you can't wear them.

No different then the AW-Foui, but CAP pretty much ignored the guidance on that because...reasons...

"That Others May Zoom"

Shuman 14

QuoteAW-Foui

Not familiar with the term.  ???
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

GroundHawg

#11
Quote from: shuman14 on July 10, 2019, 02:40:51 PM
I've always found the rule against wearing National Guard Awards silly especially when the wear of Foreign Decorations is allowed. I'm not just talking about CAP but the Armed Forces as well.

I always point to Hurricane Katrina. The State of Louisiana took great pains to properly recognize the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, Coast Guardsmen, National Guardsmen, SDF, CAP, USCGAux, Civilian and Foreign National Responders. They pretty much awarded every responder personally the Louisiana Emergency Service Medal and every "unit" the Governor's Unit citation the Louisiana F.E. Herbert Meritorious Unit Commendation .

Individuals who went above and beyond were also recognized with various awards (Louisiana Cross of Merit, Louisiana Commendation Medal and Louisiana Achievement Ribbon) depending on what they did.

But unless you are National Guard or State Defense Force... you can't wear them.

On the other hand, go have a friendship shooting day with the German Armed Forces, and you get a Schützenschnur, you get to wear that. (Well, at least the Army does.)

I think it's disrespectful to the States and to the State Military Forces (ARNG, ANG, SDF) that their awards are regulated to a second class status.

But that's just me.


I agree 100%

I was awarded more state and federal awards than I deserved for my deployment to Hurricane Katrina. I think that if the State of Louisiana and Mississippi thought so highly of a CAP members service that they decorated them, that it is disrespectful to not allow a member to wear it.
Maybe they should have a caveat that you cant wear state awards unless earned while a member of the CAP? I guess it would be [darn] near impossible to enforce though and it would end up being a free for all.

Does anyone know if Louisiana Wing, Mississippi Wing, Alabama Wing, etc.. received any State Unit Citations and if so, does the Wing Unit Flag or Guidon sport that streamer?

Also, members of the USAF can wear the Schützenschnur, but only while serving in Deutschland.

MSG Mac

National Guard/State awards are varied and created by State legislation.  Awards worn on Active Duty are created by federal law. The wear of foreign awards ( Vietnam Campaign, Kuwait Liberation, NATO, and United Nations) are again authorized to be worn by Congress.  Looking at Ozzy's link to NY awards, some of the criteria are: be a First Sergeant, Serve 7 days within New York City after 9/11, Be awarded an Air Medal or higher on active duty, you get the Conspicuous Service Medal without ever serving in the NG, just be a citizen of NY.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Gunsotsu

Y'all realize what the easy answer to all this is, don't you?

Just wear CAP awards. Easy.

xyzzy

Quote from: Gunsotsu on July 11, 2019, 05:44:39 PM
Y'all realize what the easy answer to all this is, don't you?

Just wear CAP awards. Easy.

The CAP uniform manual states in part
Quote
11.1.1.1. Ribbons and devices are mandatory with the USAF-style Service Dress (Class A) and USAF-style Semiformal uniforms, and optional with the USAF-style Blue Service Uniform (Class B) and Corporate-style Aviator Shirt Uniforms. When ribbons and devices are worn, all authorized ribbons will be worn on USAF-style uniforms, except:

Some of the exceptions are well-known, like not wearing ribbons on utility uniforms. One not-so-obvious exception is that cadets may reduce the size of the ribbon rack  "by removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn." So apparently cadets could refrain from wearing federal military and federal non-military ribbons if they wish. (Obviously it would be truly exceptional for a cadet to have earned a federal award.)

It appears that senior members wearing an Air Force style class A uniform would be obliged to wear all the federal military and federal non-military ribbons they have earned. And if they wore the class B uniform, it would be all-or-nothing.

wacapgh

Quote from: xyzzy on July 11, 2019, 06:18:04 PM
(Obviously it would be truly exceptional for a cadet to have earned a federal award.)

Not difficult at all. Cadet joins National Guard, is sent off for Basic/AIT as ADT (Active Duty-Training), earns the Army Service Ribbon for getting an MOS.

Shuman 14

Quote from: wacapgh on July 11, 2019, 06:26:02 PM

Not difficult at all. Cadet joins National Guard, is sent off for Basic/AIT as ADT (Active Duty-Training), earns the Army Service Ribbon for getting an MOS.

And the National Defense Service Medal, an Army Qualification Badge/Badges for Rifle and Hand Grenade (and maybe Pistol, depending on MOS) and possible a Global War on Terrorism Service Medal within 30/60 days of graduation.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Eclipse

Quote from: xyzzy on July 11, 2019, 06:18:04 PM
Quote from: Gunsotsu on July 11, 2019, 05:44:39 PM
Y'all realize what the easy answer to all this is, don't you?

Just wear CAP awards. Easy.

The CAP uniform manual states in part
Quote
11.1.1.1. Ribbons and devices are mandatory with the USAF-style Service Dress (Class A) and USAF-style Semiformal uniforms, and optional with the USAF-style Blue Service Uniform (Class B) and Corporate-style Aviator Shirt Uniforms. When ribbons and devices are worn, all authorized ribbons will be worn on USAF-style uniforms, except:

Some of the exceptions are well-known, like not wearing ribbons on utility uniforms. One not-so-obvious exception is that cadets may reduce the size of the ribbon rack  "by removing all cadet achievement ribbons but their highest Cadet Program achievement ribbon. All other earned CAP ribbons and devices must still be worn." So apparently cadets could refrain from wearing federal military and federal non-military ribbons if they wish. (Obviously it would be truly exceptional for a cadet to have earned a federal award.)

It appears that senior members wearing an Air Force style class A uniform would be obliged to wear all the federal military and federal non-military ribbons they have earned. And if they wore the class B uniform, it would be all-or-nothing.

You left out the "except" - Seniors are required to short stack to meet the top-notch / bottom tip rule.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Okay you all.

Let's clear up one thing in this debate.

The rule to not allow State National Guard awards on the USAF Uniform is not CAP's rule.

It is the USAF's rule.

End of story.

If you think that the rule is silly....there are channels for your to voice your concerns.
Everything else here is just the same old players.....with their same old complains.....and the answer is the same old answer.

Have fun.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

I think that about covers the tower fly-by.

Click.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret