NHQ Uniform Committee

[mikeylikey]

^ That is so not correct.  If the AF wanted to say something about a Corporate uniform, they would.  And guess what,  CAP would listen because it would go something like this....

"Um hi this CAP-USAF, your new corporate jacket is too pink, we don't like it, and if you don't change it we will withhold money from the budget, thanks and have a nice day"

Even though we are under the impression the AF does not interefer with corporate issues, you KNOW they do.  They would be stupid not to.

[afgeo4]

^ That is so not correct.  If the AF wanted to say something about a Corporate uniform, they would.  And guess what,  CAP would listen because it would go something like this....

"Um hi this CAP-USAF, your new corporate jacket is too pink, we don't like it, and if you don't change it we will withhold money from the budget, thanks and have a nice day"

Even though we are under the impression the AF does not interefer with corporate issues, you KNOW they do.  They would be stupid not to.

Mikey... that's just your opinion, right? We have no proof of this and no instance where we even have strong suspicion as to it happening.

There are USAF people on the BoG and that's how something might happen, but as far as we're concerned, anyone on the BoG is a member of CAP anyway, so it's actually an internal issue.

[mikeylikey]

^ Your right, just my crazy opinion. 

[Hawk200]

^ That is so not correct.  If the AF wanted to say something about a Corporate uniform, they would.  And guess what,  CAP would listen because it would go something like this....

"Um hi this CAP-USAF, your new corporate jacket is too pink, we don't like it, and if you don't change it we will withhold money from the budget, thanks and have a nice day"

Even though we are under the impression the AF does not interefer with corporate issues, you KNOW they do.  They would be stupid not to.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I could see that happening. The Air Force let us have the U.S. insignia, they could take those away too. If they think that something CAP is doing would bring discredit to them, I'd bet they'd do something about it.

This idea that CAP is completely autonomous that some people have is going to get us into trouble.

[afgeo4]

^ That is so not correct.  If the AF wanted to say something about a Corporate uniform, they would.  And guess what,  CAP would listen because it would go something like this....

"Um hi this CAP-USAF, your new corporate jacket is too pink, we don't like it, and if you don't change it we will withhold money from the budget, thanks and have a nice day"

Even though we are under the impression the AF does not interefer with corporate issues, you KNOW they do.  They would be stupid not to.

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I could see that happening. The Air Force let us have the U.S. insignia, they could take those away too. If they think that something CAP is doing would bring discredit to them, I'd bet they'd do something about it.

This idea that CAP is completely autonomous that some people have is going to get us into trouble.

The US insignia is on USAF style uniforms, which are 100% controlled by USAF. As of this time, USAF does not directly have a say over corporate uniforms. At least not formally, not yet. Informally... yup, I believe they can and do suggest what the right and wrong move may be. I'm not exactly against that though.

[mikeylikey]

^ I think they should have a say in each and every one of our uniform decisions, both corporate and AF-style.

[adamblank]

After freezing out in the field jackets during encampment.  I have come to the idea that for our field jackets we could use the goretex slides.  This of course will be a moot point in short-time.  But it could work for now.

[mikeylikey]

After freezing out in the field jackets during encampment.  I have come to the idea that for our field jackets we could use the goretex slides.  This of course will be a moot point in short-time.  But it could work for now.

What?!?!  Do you mean sew the slides on the M-65?  Or slip them on the shoulders?

I would reccomend Gortex if your jacket is not warm enough also.  I doubt CAP will see the ABU parkas for awhile, and when they finally do come, the phase out of the BDU pattern parka will most likely be years.  I would guesstimate at least 10 years for BDU pattern parkas to disappear!  You may be safe purchasing one.

[adamblank]

I mean slip the slides on the M-65.  I do have a goretex but I would say the 65 with the liner is a bit warmer.  I do appreciate the advise.

[DKruse]

The better answer came together from a bunch of dif suggestions earlier in the thread. What it is, is a complete change in the way we consider & adopt uniform changes. There's a couple parts to it...

I'm very much in favor of this approach also.  I just want to avoid the situation we've had over the last 2 years where new uniform changes are coming down from NHQ every 3 months.  If the rank-and-file get some input into the uniform changes, it's even better.

[ZigZag911]

I just read the thread on cadet officers wearing service cap.

Isn't it time to standardize this? By this I mean, authorize it nationally (as an option, just like for seniors) rather than leaving it to wing commander's discretion.

[jeders]

I just read the thread on cadet officers wearing service cap.

Isn't it time to standardize this? By this I mean, authorize it nationally (as an option, just like for seniors) rather than leaving it to wing commander's discretion.

Agreed, that would make a lot more sense than being wing commander's discretion, though I don't know that any wing commander has ever denied cadets wearing them. But it would still be better.

[Hawk200]

Agreed, that would make a lot more sense than being wing commander's discretion, though I don't know that any wing commander has ever denied cadets wearing them. But it would still be better.

I have a feeling that a lot of wing commanders probably just don't even really think about it in the first place. I don't think allowing or disallowing a hat is something that is really all that much of a priority as far as running a wing goes.

Be easier to just permit in the National 39-1, and be done with it.

[alamrcn]

Wheel caps and Bus Driver hats:

Historically, it sounds like maybe sometime, somewhere, someone in charge had issue with Cadets (or A cadet) wearing them... maybe USAF? Dunno.

In many of the Wing uniform suppliments I have access to (here), they include a blanket authorization for every cadet officer in the wing to be able to wear one. I agree, in that whatever reason there was originally for some restrictions - it no longer seems to exsist and now just takes up reg-space and creates confussion between wings.

This one definately goes in the "git-r-done" file for the new 39-1.

-Ace

[FW]

^ I think they should have a say in each and every one of our uniform decisions, both corporate and AF-style.

Does anyone remember why we have the "U.S."  on our command patch, BDU tapes and name plate on the Corp. distinctive uniform?  
One reason is due to AF insistence we "will not" have the U.S. cutouts on the "TPU".
HWWNBN'd had a fit over this.  The rest is history .

[Gunner C]

Wheel caps and Bus Driver hats:

Historically, it sounds like maybe sometime, somewhere, someone in charge had issue with Cadets (or A cadet) wearing them... maybe USAF? Dunno.

In many of the Wing uniform suppliments I have access to (here), they include a blanket authorization for every cadet officer in the wing to be able to wear one. I agree, in that whatever reason there was originally for some restrictions - it no longer seems to exsist and now just takes up reg-space and creates confussion between wings.

This one definately goes in the "git-r-done" file for the new 39-1.

-Ace

It was that way back in 1967 WIWAC.  I just think that no one thought to change it.  It's probably one of those things that is lost to the ages - something historically that got left in the dust.

GC

[BillB]

The U.S. on the command patch dates from 1942 when CAP was doing coastal patrol. It was added to the CAP emblem (tiangle and prop) to identify CAP as being uniformed Americans and not civilian spies, in case they were shot down, crashed and were captured by Germans. The U.S. has followed through ever since that time.

[FW]

The U.S. on the command patch dates from 1942 when CAP was doing coastal patrol. It was added to the CAP emblem (ti angle and prop) to identify CAP as being uniformed Americans and not civilian spies, in case they were shot down, crashed and were captured by Germans. The U.S. has followed through ever since that time.

Sorry I wasn't clear.  I meant the current patch (2006-present)  we wear on our flight suits, put on our vehicles, aircraft, etc.  vs. the "old" patch that had CAP where the U.S. is
and "Civil Air Patrol" where "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary" was.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Bill:

The "Legend" I heard was that the red-epaulet uniform with the funny wings was so unusual that people thought that CAP members were some kind of foreign officer.  The "U.S." was to prevent that misconception.

[DNall]

... If the AF wanted to say something about a Corporate uniform, they would.  And guess what,  CAP would listen because it would go something like this....

"Um hi this CAP-USAF, your new corporate jacket is too pink, we don't like it, and if you don't change it we will withhold money from the budget, thanks and have a nice day"

Even though we are under the impression the AF does not interefer with corporate issues, you KNOW they do.  They would be stupid not to.

Three things:

1) I think you know that conversation would be more tactful (and legal). It'd be more like... "just called to talk about this budget request, we're going to have to give it a hard look ... Oh yeah, and what's up with this new uniform I'm hearing about? Pink, are you serious? I'm not sure that's a very good representation of the AF family. Anyway, we'll be continuing to look at all these issues, stay in touch."


2) You have to define who you mean by AF.

CAP-USAF does comment in private on non-AF-style uniform items, BUT they have some fairly strict guidlines on where & how they can be involved in CAP decision making. They have to make sure it's: compliant with US & international law; safety/insurance concerns; real AF readiness/operations. If CAP really wants to put everyone in polos & shorts then you're going to need to read some body language when CAP-USAF is saying no comment.

However, CAP-USAF is not the approval authority for AF-style uniform items. That has to go thru AU CC to AETC CC (or their designated uniform boards). You can't really call it THE AF's input unless it either comes from that level or CSAF/SAF decide to delgate AF-style approval to CAP-USAF, which ain't gonna happen (and shouldn't). I gurantee you the AETC CC didn't know anything about the corporate-style service dress till it was already being fielded. That's not the right way to do things.


3) If you've ever been in the military, you understand phrases like commander's intent, command guidance, or congressional intent/guidance.

AF slapped CAP around in the past for misbehaving. Likewise, AF has been slapped around by Congress at times for being too controlling. CAP is ultimately a bunch of civilians that get mouthy with their reps when they don't like what they hear. Most times that's with a very poor understanding of the issues, what's being proposed, or both. I wouldn't go as far as saying AF is gunshy about inserting themselves into control/leadership/decision-making over CAP, but they aren't going to squander that sometimes risky political capital on things that aren't essential.


What I'm saying is, yes, AF could do some things to get what they want within CAP (uniforms or otherwise), but that's not generally how it works & they have a whole lot of incentive not to do that. That's unfortunate in my opinion, but that's the real world.