NHQ Uniform Committee

[RiverAux]

I think the polo would be slightly better than the button down shirt for wear while flying or in other situations where you're going to work up a sweat.  Its less prone to getting all wrinkled up in those cases than the button downs. 

[jb512]

I see no reason that a new member shouldn't be able to buy something simple like the golf shirt "uniform" and have that be acceptable for any CAP activity.  For ground teams there may be a necessity for a long-sleeved top plus jeans "uniform" to provide some brush protection. (But, jeez, not camo!  The last thing you want is for ground teams to be invisible.  Camo is not just silly, it reduces safety.)

I have to echo everyone else in response to this...  You are aware that this is a military auxiliary, right?  We're not wearing "silly camo" because it's "camo".  We're wearing it because it's a utility uniform for walking through the brush and carrying stuff and it's readily available from our parent organization, etc...

I think the boy scouts still wear jeans and long sleeved shirts though.  You can sew your merit badges right onto the pockets...

[SStradley]

After 49 pages of not reading anymore, I ask the following:

If you had to go to National Boards right now, what are you asking for uniform changes?

Good Question!

  Re: NHQ Uniform Committee
« Reply #844 on: December 27, 2007, 10:47:56 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Refresher to get us back on track, and to help those that just joined us (so they don't have to read all 41 pages!)   


Quote from: mikeylikey on December 07, 2007, 09:17:01 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 05, 2007, 09:07:17 AM
Could I take a moment to review what we have so far?

1.  AF Blues:

- No change likely on weight requirements.
- Switch from gray to blue epaulet sleeves, with "CAP" identified.

2.  TPU:

- Switch from silver braid to same blue as on AF coat.
- Lose silver chinstrap from flying saucer cap.
- Switch from hard rank to blue epaulet sleeve, same as AF coat.
- Shirt to have same blue epaulet with "CAP."
- "CAP" lapel brass to remain.
- Allow neatly-trimmed beards, but NOT long hair.
- Not resolved:  wear of military ribbons and badges... Same rules as on AF coat?

3.  White and Grays:

- History.

4.  Flight Suits:

- Retain dual flight suits, sage green and dark blue.
- Sew-on bright rank for both shoulders.
- Sage green background for AF flight suit, dark blue for blue flight suit.
- Not resolved:  embroidered name badges?

5.  BDU's:

- Retain BDU for time being.
- Introduce ABU on a schedule driven by the AF logistical chain.
- No change to BDU during phase-out period.
- Retain blue BDU for the fats and fuzzies.
- Switch to dark blue nametapes and rank background for BBDU.
- Unresolved:  Dark blue or sage green background for ABU tapes and rank?

6.  Golf Shirt:

- Retain as a casual uniform.
- Switch to khaki trousers (Is this correct, or unresolved?)
- Establish a single authorized golf shirt.

7.  Blazer Uniform:

- Retain for IACE and as an alternate dress uniform.
- Switch to khaki trousers (Again, was this resolved?)

Does this summarize what has been discussed and decided, or do I have something wrong?




So we all don't have to read back to page 24 to catch up. 

[PhoenixRisen]

In response to the previous post, one thing I was aware that we'd be asking for (for us Cadets) is the ability to short-stack again - for those who don't like wearing a gazillion ribbons.

(Yes, I'm aware gazillion isn't a word.  )

[Pylon]

In response to the previous post, one thing I was aware that we'd be asking for (for us Cadets) is the ability to short-stack again - for those who don't like wearing a gazillion ribbons.

(Yes, I'm aware gazillion isn't a word.  )

Noted.  Thank you. 

[PhoenixRisen]

In response to the previous post, one thing I was aware that we'd be asking for (for us Cadets) is the ability to short-stack again - for those who don't like wearing a gazillion ribbons.

(Yes, I'm aware gazillion isn't a word.  )

Noted.  Thank you. 

No, thank you for helping us Cadets come one step closer to NOT having to look like Bolivian Generals each time we step into our Blues.   

[DNall]

My connection got a little fuzzy there for a while, but I was writing a summation as well. I guess you can compare & see if it all got covered between the two.

VSAF... obviously we don't need both, and of course it'd be stupid to get rid of the polo we got for a shirt we don't. I'm not in the loop on this one, but I'd be willing to bet that's not AF's idea. I think they probably just said no uniforms, business casual. Someone just needs to let them know the polo combo is the way to go. I have faith common sense will prevail.

Blazer combo.... I got mixed emotions, but I can see keeping it. However, I would go back to the roots on this. The point of the blazer combo was not to create a "uniform." It was to put a distinctive nametag/etc on a standard business suit already in everyone's closet. i would just assume go back to that. Meaning that it would not be a standardized uniform with this color gray pants & that color blue jacket. It would just state dark blue/black professional business suit & conservative tie, attach this pin on name badge. IACE is a different thing & doesn't need to be covered in 39-1.

Just a couple quick personal requests...
a) can we completely take out any reference to things as a corporate or corporate-style uniform. I think it unneccessarily engenders an incorrect attitude. Can we instead juat use the word "alternate." ie- the serivce dress uniform & alternate service dress uniform, utility uniform (BDU) & alternate utility uniform (BBDU), flight utility uniform (grn flt suit) & alternate flt utility uniform (blue).

b) can we completely get rid of any refernce to "senior members." Just go with cadet & adult classes of membership (in addition to patron, etc). That includes getting rid of the SM grade & replacing it with officer candidate. I think that does encourage the right attitude for our new members.


If I could try to sum up where we are on the actual proposed matrix (this is one of those correct me if/where I'm wrong things):

Some things are fairly clear:

1. The effort is to reduce cost to members. That doesn't necessarily mean cost to you members who may have to make changes. Rather, it means cost to new members to aquire this stuff from scratch. CAP rolls over membership constantly. We're not concerned with losing people by making changes, cause we tend to pick up just as many or more by going to the new standard. Hate to sound cold & calculating about it, but that's the facts.

2. There will be one AF & one alternative version of each uniform class. That is Utility - BDU(ABU)/BBDU, service - blues/alt blues, flt - grn/blue; plus the golf shirt w/khakis & the blazer combo. Nothing else. If you want to say cotton versions of the blue or green flt suit are authorized, I can deal with that, but we don't need a seperate blue util uniform.

3. Things will be as standardized between the two equiv uniforms as legally possible. The only difference should be the base uniform, the stuff & placement of it should be the same, with very few exceptions.

A) Specifically, that means dropping to one standard plastic nametag for cadets & seniors, blue or white shirt; and, one silver nametag for the jacket, be it single or double breasted.

B) There are some exceptions to the standardization. That's no military ribbons/badges on the alternative blue uniform. We can't do anything about that. And, background color for the tapes on the BDU(ABU)/BBDU. There is no cost differnce between one industry standard color and another, and it looks dramatically better to match backgrounds. That means dark blue tapes for BBDU. BDU/ABU would be up for discussion.

C) Going to "CAP" collar devices on both service coats is up for discussion. It would allow us to standardize, but the popular sentiment is to keep the "US" where we can. I prefer the US, but I'll adapt to whatever standard is set.

4. Patches. We'll be trying to reduce the color explosion. That means taking off a lot of unneeded stuff. AF heraldry standards adopted for future patches. People would be highly encouraged to use a semi-subued darker sort of color pallet. That is to say still full-color, but using things like maroon rather than bright red. It doesn't need to be camoflauged, but it does need to present a more conservative professional appearance.

5. Future uniform change process.

A) The reg will spell out a new process that makes it more difficult to make so many and so drastic changes in such a short period of time. It would require a serious wear test and field input - that is both CAP member feedback, and comments from AF personnel (even for non-AF style items).

B) It would also directly link the CAP uniform mannual to the AF uniform mannual for authoritative guidance. That means if AF changes the way a patch is to be worn on ABUs, then the CAP uniform committe &/or NHQ is authorized to make that administrative change to the CAP reg w/o need of a vote by the NB, member input, etc. This covers wear of the commander's badge & things like that.


Some things will involve change proposals. That's proposing one version we're willing to live with & one version that we want:

6. Standardized grade slides. They will be stadardized, the only question is to what. We're willing to keep gray for everything. That means corp-style alternate blues uniform would get gray slides on both jacket & shirt. We'd prefer going to blue sides like it used to be. That could utilize an adaptation of the cadet officer slide, or it could simply be "CAP" embroidered onto a standard AF grade slide (which allows for female sized slides). Black has been discussed as an alternative & may or may not go in the mix of things presented. Another possibility is if we keep the gray & a distinctive nametag, then there is no need for "CAP" to be embroidered on the slides. Also, some provision may be made for SMWOG, such as a blank grade slide (already available).

7. BDU(ABU)/BBDU. We will go to dark blue background for everything on the BBDU. The worst case is to carry that same dark blue across to BDUs. The better case is white or gray on OD background for BDUs. What we'll probably end up doing is not changing BDUs at all, but rather developing a new set of standards for ABUs to be adopted as those come out. That being, the same backgrounds the AF is using, with full-color embroidery.

8. Nametags. We will go to one plastic & one silver nametag for both cadets & adults, & both AF-style & corp-style. We'd prefer the standard one-line AF versions that are widely avail for low cost from dozens of approved manufactures, and are utilized by AFJROTC/AFROTC/AF Acad/etc. If we can't have that for some reason, we'd go to the two-line version currently used on the corp-style blues uniform. I'd note regarding phase in/out that this would most likely be tied to moving over to the new service coats.

[PhoenixRisen]

4. Patches. We'll be trying to reduce the color explosion. That means taking off a lot of unneeded stuff. AF heraldry standards adopted for future patches. People would be highly encouraged to use a semi-subued darker sort of color pallet. That is to say still full-color, but using things like maroon rather than bright red. It doesn't need to be camoflauged, but it does need to present a more conservative professional appearance.

This brings up a proposal on the standardization part of patches.  We want to "standardize", yet NHQ decided to let wings decide as to whether they want to keep their wing patches.  Myself, being unlucky, as we're requred to keep them.

My proposal is to standardize this, and in an effort to align ourselves with the AF - in that they don't wear shoulder wing patches, remove them from ALL wings, and don't give a choice.

That just screams hippocrite when one says "standardization".

[JohnKachenmeister]

DNall:

I think you're pretty close to a summary there.

I am pretty sure it was decided to keep the Blazer, since it is required for IACE.  The polo looks like it is approved (with a change to khaki pants) for wear with this new VSAF program.  I don't have a problem with that, and actually the Air Force has a very similar uniform that is worn be recruiters.  There should only be one basic style of polo, with the seal embroidered on the right.  A member who wants to add his name and embroidered qualification badge on the left should continue to be allowed to do so.

I THINK that military ribbons are authorized on the TPU, but not military badges.  I also think that the committee is recommending that to change, and permit wear of both ribbons and badges on the TPU as on the AF uniform jacket.  Military regs authorize wear of awards on clothing of "Military societies," which I think we might qualify on that point.  One can wear one's military ribbons and badges on one's VFW hat, so wearing them on our uniform should be a no-brainer.

I agree on the patches.  If a wing wants a patch, it should meet USAF heraldry standards, and not detract from the uniform appearance.

[jeders]

8. Nametags. We will go to one plastic & one silver nametag for both cadets & adults, & both AF-style & corp-style. We'd prefer the standard one-line AF versions that are widely avail for low cost from dozens of approved manufactures, and are utilized by AFJROTC/AFROTC/AF Acad/etc. If we can't have that for some reason, we'd go to the two-line version currently used on the corp-style blues uniform. I'd note regarding phase in/out that this would most likely be tied to moving over to the new service coats.

I thought the plastic nametag was going to be the blue 3-line that cadets currently use. This would be my personal choice because then current cadets don't have to get a new nametag. Plus those of us that are former cadets likely still have the one they used as a cadet.

[mikeylikey]

^ More Officers in CAP than Prior Cadets turned Officer in CAP.  Don't add additional expenses for the majority.  Thanks!   :angel:

Also, I am all for keeping the black Army Windbreaker with pin-on metal grade insignia and a cap cutout.  In fact, we should also try to get that practice moved onto other outerwear as well.  My slides get all crapped over in the rainy and snowy months.

[Pylon]

^ More Officers in CAP than Prior Cadets turned Officer in CAP.  Don't add additional expenses for the majority.  Thanks!   :angel:

The intent in the blue 3-line nameplate for all idea is not because some former cadet s'members might still have them kicking around. 

It's because it promotes the one team, one appearance concept.  Civil Air Patrol wears one nameplate, across all of our nameplate-using uniforms... cadets... seniors... in AF-style... in corporates.

Pair that idea of wearing blue epaulets with "CAP" on them on all uniforms, now you have cadet officers, senior officers all wearing blue epaulets with "CAP" and grade insignia on them whether in corporates or AF-style.  Again, a one-team, one-look appearance.

So now the differences between the corporate and AF-style service dress uniforms are more subtle, members don't have to own 4 nameplates, and cost is -in the end- reduced.  Right now there are 5 nameplates, not counting U.S. and non-U.S. Civil Air Patrol variants.  If that gets reduced to 2 (3-line blue plastic and brushed steel) then simplicity, easy-to-understand regs, cost-effectiveness, and uniformity all win in the end.

[DNall]

Why the 3-line? How is it more cost saving to use a larger more complex specialty item versus the very widely avail standard one-line AF version used by every other part of the AF from AFJROTC on up. I understand not wanting to tax cadets by making them get a new item. That gets covered with legitimate phase-in periods. Just curious on the thinking there.

I got no problem with mil badges/ribbons on the other blue uniform. That's AF's call though, maybe even DoD's call, definately not mine.

[cnitas]

Why the 3-line? How is it more cost saving to use a larger more complex specialty item versus the very widely avail standard one-line AF version used by every other part of the AF from AFJROTC on up. I understand not wanting to tax cadets by making them get a new item. That gets covered with legitimate phase-in periods. Just curious on the thinking there.

I have been wondering this for awhile myself.

[jason.pennington]

I agree with one nametag for all.  Style does not matter since Vanguard will find some way to raise the price on them.  But a uniformity would be nice.  20 years ago we all wore the same nametag and it worked.  Grey is OK, and thank the heavens we didn't get a maroon nametag, but blue is better.

[SAR-EMT1]

One name tag would be fine.
But my personal take on it is this: if it isnt a one liner with just the last name then please God let it have " US AF Aux" like the current one, and not " CAP"

[mikeylikey]

If that gets reduced to 2 (3-line blue plastic and brushed steel) then simplicity, easy-to-understand regs, cost-effectiveness, and uniformity all win in the end.

However, Cadets are not wearing the AF brushed steel.  Will they then continue to wear the blue 3-line on the AF service coat, and will WE (Officers or SM's) have to change over from brushed steel to the blue 3-line on the AF service Coat to "fit in" with the Cadets??

I hope not!  Lets keep brushed steel on the AF Jacket, and try to get brushed steel 1-line on the Corporate Jacket as well.  Might as well try to get it for the Cadets as well.

[jeders]

Why the 3-line? How is it more cost saving to use a larger more complex specialty item versus the very widely avail standard one-line AF version used by every other part of the AF from AFJROTC on up. I understand not wanting to tax cadets by making them get a new item. That gets covered with legitimate phase-in periods. Just curious on the thinking there.

I got no problem with mil badges/ribbons on the other blue uniform. That's AF's call though, maybe even DoD's call, definately not mine.

I'm not saying that the blue 3-line is necessarily more cost-saving, I just thought that that was the consensus of the committee earlier on. If that's changed then that's fine with me.

^ More Officers in CAP than Prior Cadets turned Officer in CAP.  Don't add additional expenses for the majority.  Thanks!   :angel:

There are more officers than former cadets turned senior member, yes. But I'm assuming that there are more cadets and former cadets turned senior member than there are senior members who only wear "corporates" and therefore have the blue one-line.

[DNall]

Why the 3-line? How is it more cost saving to use a larger more complex specialty item versus the very widely avail standard one-line AF version used by every other part of the AF from AFJROTC on up. I understand not wanting to tax cadets by making them get a new item. That gets covered with legitimate phase-in periods. Just curious on the thinking there.

I'm not saying that the blue 3-line is necessarily more cost-saving, I just thought that that was the consensus of the committee earlier on. If that's changed then that's fine with me.

This is me asking the cmte if that's the case, and if so why.

It's pretty simple to me. I'm all for getting all of the CAP team in the same nametag. But if we're going to follow that logic, then why not use the same nametag as the rest of the AF team that we play for. I can gurantee you that's not the AF pushing that for distinctiveness. If AFJROTC can do something, it's not the AF telling us we can't.

The other thing is, a 3-line is not cost saving, and keeps me tied to limited manufactures. If I can go to 1-line then I can get them made for cadets locally or from dozens of other competitive manufactures for half the price in half the time & with a tenth of the errors I currently have to deal with. By the way, that's $1.70 versus $2.90.


Far as the brushed silver. We're keeping that on the service coat. By going to distinctive epaulet slides versus metal grade we will be able to go to the one-line for the corp-style service coat as well. Most cadets I see wear the old-style service coat, so it doesn't tend to be an issue on their side. As we go to the upcoming service coat, everyone in CAP should have the same one-line brushed silver for that.

There are more officers than former cadets turned senior member, yes. But I'm assuming that there are more cadets and former cadets turned senior member than there are senior members who only wear "corporates" and therefore have the blue one-line.

I gurantee you the number of people that have a blue nametag saved cadet time, or back when we were in maroon, is extremely negligable. If that's a factor for you versus a buck & half for a new nametag, you really have issues. In this process, the cost-savings we're talking about are for future members to aquire what they need from scratch. How can I make us more of a team, with each other & the AF, while keeping it inexpensive & easy to access for those new folks.

[CAP Producer]

^ More Officers in CAP than Prior Cadets turned Officer in CAP.  Don't add additional expenses for the majority.  Thanks!   :angel:

The intent in the blue 3-line nameplate for all idea is not because some former cadet s'members might still have them kicking around. 

It's because it promotes the one team, one appearance concept.  Civil Air Patrol wears one nameplate, across all of our nameplate-using uniforms... cadets... seniors... in AF-style... in corporates.

Pair that idea of wearing blue epaulets with "CAP" on them on all uniforms, now you have cadet officers, senior officers all wearing blue epaulets with "CAP" and grade insignia on them whether in corporates or AF-style.  Again, a one-team, one-look appearance.

So now the differences between the corporate and AF-style service dress uniforms are more subtle, members don't have to own 4 nameplates, and cost is -in the end- reduced.  Right now there are 5 nameplates, not counting U.S. and non-U.S. Civil Air Patrol variants.  If that gets reduced to 2 (3-line blue plastic and brushed steel) then simplicity, easy-to-understand regs, cost-effectiveness, and uniformity all win in the end.

I like what Mike says.