NHQ Uniform Committee

[mikeylikey]

Fifinella LAWG, Pylon NYWG, Chief Walpus OKWG, Me LAWG, Col Starr WAWG

No one from the midwest??  That is a shame!

What do you call Oklahoma?   It's not in the NCR, but it is still the Midwest.

Oklahoma is part of the Southwestern United States.  Or at least I always thought it was.  You know the Weather Channel does the 3 minute continental roundup, the guy or lady says "in the Southwest......in Oklahoma, in Texas....blah blah blah".

Huge difference between the weather in Oklahoma, and Illinois/ Indiana/ Missouri ya know.

[RogueLeader]

^^ Not so different between KS, and NE.
[/drift]

[pixelwonk]

*topic*

[NAYBOR]

To get back on topic, I'd like to submit an "oldie but goodie" from the past that I'd like considered by the NHQ for both the USAF and corporate service coats:



OR



Precedent for the suggestion: The New York Guard--

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/nyg/catalog.pdf

Look on page 6--officer cutouts--There's also a rendition of their officer service cap device on page 7.

California also had similar lapel brass for the CSMR (US cutout with a smaller "CAL" across it)--they've changed to a "CA" cutout.  I don't know if other states' SDFs follow a similar cutout to NY.

[RogueLeader]

What would the cost be for membership?  this would mean ALL in CAP with a Service Coat would have to buy new insignia that is customized.  It would not be in line with the stated objectives of the committee. 

There is that, as well as the fact that it wouldn't look right.  We have hashed that out before- not saying we can't re-discuss it here- but i believe that the consensus was that it didn't look good for CAP.

[Grumpy]

I'm not all that familiar with the uniform of the Coast Guard Aux., but they have metal rank with the letter "A" on it.  This wouldn't be that much different and it would distinguish us from our parent organization.

[RogueLeader]

I'm not all that familiar with the uniform of the Coast Guard Aux., but they have metal rank with the letter "A" on it.  This wouldn't be that much different and it would distinguish us from our parent organization.

1) Cost
2) 1 letter on insignia, ok; but Letters on top of Letters-  I don't think so.

[Hawk200]

To get back on topic, I'd like to submit an "oldie but goodie" from the past that I'd like considered by the NHQ for both the USAF and corporate service coats:



OR



Precedent for the suggestion: The New York Guard--

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/nyg/catalog.pdf

Look on page 6--officer cutouts--There's also a rendition of their officer service cap device on page 7.

California also had similar lapel brass for the CSMR (US cutout with a smaller "CAL" across it)--they've changed to a "CA" cutout.  I don't know if other states' SDFs follow a similar cutout to NY.

I have a problem with putting anything on top of "US" letters. It's like placing writing over the US flag.

CAP has no desperate need for "US" insignia. It's nice that we have it, but if giving it up can allow us to establish a professional, aesthetically matched uniform, we should accept it.

We are not US military forces. We shouldn't be modifying US insignia for any reason. New York's practice of doing so does not justify our attempting it.

An additional note: NY's use of a modified "U.S." insignia is also not in compliance with the use policy of the Army. From AR 670-1, dated 3 Feb 05, para 30-8. c. :

"State defense forces (SDF) may adopt the Army service and BDU uniforms, provided all service uniform buttons, cap devices, and other insignia differ significantly from that prescribed for wear by members of the U.S. Army. State insignia will not include “United States,” “U.S.,” “U.S. Army,” or the Great Seal of the United States."

[Pace]

I find it slightly amusing that CAP reaches out with one hand and slaps itself with the other.  We're now wearing the US flag patch, but we're trying to get rid of the US insignia.  So by following that trend, can the flag come off the BDUs?

Don't flame me if this has been addressed.  I haven't tracked the last 700-800 posts...

[Hawk200]

I find it slightly amusing that CAP reaches out with one hand and slaps itself with the other.  We're now wearing the US flag patch, but we're trying to get rid of the US insignia.  So by following that trend, can the flag come off the BDUs?

Don't flame me if this has been addressed.  I haven't tracked the last 700-800 posts...

Personally, I'm not attempting to get rid of the U.S. insignia. I just feel that if it is an impediment to our getting a professional looking uniform, we should consider it. If we were given the option of metal on our coats, but had to lose the "U.S.", I wouldn't have any heartburn with it.

I don't care for the flag on our BDU's. It associates us with the Army more than the Air Force, and that is the wrong direction to take.

[RogueLeader]

I don't want to lose either of them.  I would rather keep the US, and have grey epaulets.  Now, if we had to put the metal CAP on the epaulets, along with the hard rank, that would be awesome.

[jason.pennington]

CAP cut-outs on the lapels and metal rank insignia would be great for the jacket.  At first I had no problem with getting rid of the AF blues for seniors, but it is the uniform of our cadets.  They expect us to wear our uniform correctly as well as they do.  Of course we should be the example, not the cadets.

With that being said, I still think that SM's need one dress uniform.  The blue pants combo looks better and is more professional than the grey.  It would be great if we could go back to blue rank sleeves for the AF shirt as well, so we could use the same insignia on both shirts, thus saving money.  The same thing goes for the nameplates.  Can we get the blue two-line for wear on the AF blues, or the 3-line blue nameplate back for seniors and wear that on both shirts?  Again, this would bring down some costs.

Someone along the lines here talked about wearing reg. military ribons on the aviator shirt.  I recently (yesterday) read in the Navy Regs that navy ribons can not be mixed with civilian clothing.  So that does away with Navy ribbons on the aviator shirt.  Which is not such a big deal for me anyway.

[Hawk200]

I don't want to lose either of them.  I would rather keep the US, and have grey epaulets.  Now, if we had to put the metal CAP on the epaulets, along with the hard rank, that would be awesome.

I don't think that setup will ever fly. Looks a little too busy.

In order to get metal rank, we may have to give up something. It may be the US. I think hard rank with CAP would look fine.

We also have to consider our NCO's. At present, they do not wear US insignia. For uniformity purposes, we'd be better served by having the same collar insignia across the board, for all ranks. Our current NCO's have earned the US more than our CAP officers have.

[Falshrmjgr]

I have never seen this anywhere,  but the US on the collars has always seemed to me to denote commissioning source (or lack thereof).

US = US Military Commision/US Officer
CAP = CAP Officer
ROTC = ROTC Cadet
OCS = OCS Candidate
SMR = State Military Reserve (or state initials, your mileage may vary)

And if you put it on a disk, it's enlisted.

Now I generally lean toward things that are in favor of CAP looking more like our Active brethren, but in this case I will state emphatically that US on the collars is wrong, misleading, and pretentious.

Hard Rank + CAP = Real CAP Officer
Epaulet Slides + US = Fake US Officer

[mikeylikey]

I don't want to lose either of them.  I would rather keep the US, and have grey epaulets.  Now, if we had to put the metal CAP on the epaulets, along with the hard rank, that would be awesome.

Our current NCO's have earned the US more than our CAP officers have.

Not true.  I earned mine as a Military Officer, as did many here.  Also, you just implied that the NCO' are better than the CAP members without previous military experience.  You owe everyone an apology......right?!?!

[Hawk200]

Someone along the lines here talked about wearing reg. military ribons on the aviator shirt.  I recently (yesterday) read in the Navy Regs that navy ribons can not be mixed with civilian clothing.  So that does away with Navy ribbons on the aviator shirt.  Which is not such a big deal for me anyway.

I believe the deal as far as military ribbons on civilian clothing is shared by all services, the Navy is simply more emphatic about it. Either way, our corporate Service Dress is still a civilian uniform. I don't think military decs will ever be permitted by the military services.

The Air Force variants are pretty much the only way to wear military insignia. We lose them, we won't have the option.

[sfdefender]

I don't care for the flag on our BDU's. It associates us with the Army more than the Air Force, and that is the wrong direction to take.

I wholly disagree with this statement.  The US flag associates the wearer with the United States of America (never a wrong direction to take). It just so happens that our placement is the same as the US Army.

It also just so happens to be that those nifty little eight-ball patches were to be worn in the same location as the Army's Shoulder Sleeve Insignia For War Time Service. I didn't hear anyone complaining about that or saying it was too Army back then...

[Hawk200]

I don't want to lose either of them.  I would rather keep the US, and have grey epaulets.  Now, if we had to put the metal CAP on the epaulets, along with the hard rank, that would be awesome.

Our current NCO's have earned the US more than our CAP officers have.

Not true.  I earned mine as a Military Officer, as did many here.  Also, you just implied that the NCO' are better than the CAP members without previous military experience.  You owe everyone an apology......right?!?!

I owe no apologies. You inferred that NCO's are better, I did not imply.

Simply put, our NCOs have spent time in military service. Our CAP officers, as CAP officers, have not. Former military officer service isn't even part of the equation. It's valuable, but I did not address it in the first place.

I have stated before that the average military person has far more experience wearing a uniform, and serving their country than a CAP member. CAP members have contributed a great deal to their communities, but in a different manner. Apples and oranges. Both food, but far different ingredients.

You are well aware that at present, an NCO must have been a military NCO. As such, there is a lot they have earned in that accomplishment. CAP officers have a different progression.

Besides, what is wrong with wearing "CAP" insignia? It doesn't demean the person, only shows a different program. Not having US doesn't make them any less of a professional.

[Hawk200]

I don't care for the flag on our BDU's. It associates us with the Army more than the Air Force, and that is the wrong direction to take.

I wholly disagree with this statement.  The US flag associates the wearer with the United States of America (never a wrong direction to take). It just so happens that our placement is the same as the US Army.

I never cared for sleeve insignia in the first place on CAP uniforms.

As far as the flag goes, compare the CAP BDU to an Army one. Then an Air Force one. Then a Navy one. I'll leave the Marines out, since their uniform is drastically different.

Which two of the above uniforms wear the American flag on the right sleeve? As such, which uniforms are going to be more closely associated?

Since the flag was going to be worn, it was probably more appropriate on the left arm. Could have used the flightsuit stock. We also wouldn't have had people putting flags on the right arm of the flightsuits.

[LtCol White]

We've only worn the US since the early 90's. Prior to this we always wore the CAP cutouts.  I too see nothing wrong with everyone wearing the CAP cutouts on both service uniforms.

US was a gift from USAF when they gave us the gray eps to replace the maroon as a morale booster after the maroon debacle.