NHQ Uniform Committee

[jason.pennington]

I see there are a lot of opinions on our uniforms.  That is great!  I would hate to think one man was the driving force behind all of our uniform changes.  But I do have a question: is there anyone on the Uniform Committee actually reading this thread?  Are these thoughts, of the membership, getting back to NHQ?  I ask this because I am unfamiliar with the vast majority of you.  Basically, does this count towards our future?

[fyrfitrmedic]

I see there are a lot of opinions on our uniforms.  That is great!  I would hate to think one man was the driving force behind all of our uniform changes.  But I do have a question: is there anyone on the Uniform Committee actually reading this thread?  Are these thoughts, of the membership, getting back to NHQ?  I ask this because I am unfamiliar with the vast majority of you.  Basically, does this count towards our future?

Did you read the beginning of the thread?

[mikeylikey]

I don't believe there is a law against imitating a member of a non-profit corporation unless you use it to defraud someone. Thus, imitating an officer or cadet of CAP isn't illegal. We are not the military.

However, if some "yahoo" is imitating a USAF officer, then sure, there is a federal law against that, but CAP officers aren't USAF officers.

We hashed this topic around early last year.  The concensous was it is a crime.  The US CODE backs it up. 

[sfdefender]

Has anyone else noticed that it takes several months or even years for the USAF to make major uniform changes.  Yet, when CAP decided to start making changes they just publish the regulation update and its done.  I am not privy to what goes on behind the scenes, but I would really like to know if uniform changes ever go through a wear test cycle.  Now I imagine that NHQ staffers probably test things out (I hope at a minimum) but my question is:

Why not extend a wear test program down to the field, like ten members a wing or somthing along those lines? It would be a good litmus test for new uniform combos and would enhance member input at the National level.

MATTHEW J BREWER
Capt, CAP
PCR-OR-065

[Major Carrales]

Has anyone else noticed that it takes several months or even years for the USAF to make major uniform changes.  Yet, when CAP decided to start making changes they just publish the regulation update and its done.  I am not privy to what goes on behind the scenes, but I would really like to know if uniform changes ever go through a wear test cycle.  Now I imagine that NHQ staffers probably test things out (I hope at a minimum) but my question is:

Why not extend a wear test program down to the field, like ten members a wing or somthing along those lines? It would be a good litmus test for new uniform combos and would enhance member input at the National level.

MATTHEW J BREWER
Capt, CAP
PCR-OR-065

That tends to be problematic since we do not wear the uniforms everyday.

I have been a long time proponent of a 5 to 10 year moratorium on uniform changes.  This interval prevents things like the "US Civil Air Patrol" nametapes.  Since uniform changes with the USAF often take a while anyway to move over to CAP, this would not be too much of an issue.

[Stonewall]

Here's an idea for test-wear.

For major changes, such as a brand new uniform, have it evaluated at two or three functions.

Just using my KBU idea as a reference here.  But take the KBU and present it at all of the Region Staff Colleges for the year.  Then at Cadet Officer School.  Then at National Staff College.  Maybe use 2 or 3 of the larger encampments to present the idea.

CAWG has a rather large encampment from what I understand.  Have 10 people walking around for a few days in the KBU.  Then open the polls.  Do the same thing at NSC, COS and RSCs.  Then present it at the NB.  There ya go.  Done.

Or, an online poll at NHQ's website.  Have members log in to eServices to view new uniform proposals and cast their vote.  Done and done.  DOH!!!!

[mikeylikey]

Or, an on-line poll at NHQ's website.  Have members log in to services to view new uniform proposals and cast their vote.  Done and done.  DOH!!!!

OMG!!!  That is the best suggestion yet for this whole Uniform Committee thing.  Open the thing up to members.  Place it in E-Services so that only Active members can vote.  Put the uniform pics and descriptions and costs associated with each change, addition or deletion.  Tally the votes and there we have a true representation of what the MEMBERS want.  NOT JUST A SMALL GROUP of people.  The Uniform Committee is a great idea, but I still don't like the fact that it is comprised of people we don't know, who may only live in one part of the country, and already have biased conceptions of what they want.  We have already seen things "shot down" in this thread for the mere reason that the "AF has disapproved that idea in the past".  Well it never HURTS TO ASK AGAIN!

Anyway, it should be a poll or vote open for 1 month and then the results presented to the NB.

Do you remember before the ACU's came out the Army did that on-line poll and vote for what future uniforms should look like?  I think they had some star trek type uniforms on there and even early drawings of the ACU's.

I am all for your voting plan!  I hope that it is carried through.

[JohnKachenmeister]

1. They are legally AF uniforms. They are controlled by law, and some yahoo could go to jail for imitating a CAP member in uniform. Same with CGAux.

2. AF does control the cloths as well as the insignia that go on them. They had to authorize wear of the current service & BDU uniforms, as well as contniued wear by cadets by not adults of the old style service coat. And, they will have to authorize wear of the new service coat when it comes out, as well as the initial wear date for ABUs & what they will allow the stuff on there to look like.

3. To be perfectly technical... it is and has always been the "Air Force STYLE" or (and pay attention here so the meaning isn't lost) the "corporate STYLE" uniform. There is no such thing as uniforms of the CAP corporation. The phrase "corporate uniform" is just a short hand that has now found its way into official documents. However, it originally referred to standard business attire with the addition of CAP nametags & such - ie the blazer combo. for most of CAP's history, the only "uniforms" were AF-style & approved by the AF. The alternative was completely civilian & was meant to be a no-cost item since most people already have it.

/end point of order.

I don't believe there is a law against imitating a member of a non-profit corporation unless you use it to defraud someone. Thus, imitating an officer or cadet of CAP isn't illegal. We are not the military.

However, if some "yahoo" is imitating a USAF officer, then sure, there is a federal law against that, but CAP officers aren't USAF officers.

You are wrong, George.  It is a crime to impersonate a CAP officer.  The law governing impersonating military officers specifically includes military auxiliary officers. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

But if we're not the full time auxiliary, someone impersonating a CAP officer wouldn't be a crime.  Unless if they were at a AFAM location. 

You and George are both wrong. 

[afgeo4]

Care to cite the federal law that states that it is illegal to impersonate a military auxiliary officer?

Remember, we are not federal employees. We are volunteer members of a non-profit corporation that sometimes acts as the auxiliary of the USAF.

[CASH172]

Does the law say "Civil Air Patrol" or "USAF Auxiliary?"  What I'm saying is that if the law just states the auxiliary, some good lawyer can argue a guy out of jail that way. 

EDIT: If it really is just the auxiliary, someone might wanna write their congressman about changing that. 

[RiverAux]

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 33 > § 702
§ 702. Uniform of armed forces and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed forces of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

Whether or not CAP is always an AF auxiliary, we are always wearing the uniform of the AF auxiliary and that is what the law applies to. 

[LtCol White]

Way off topic guys. Please move the drift elswhere and return to the topic at hand.

[tjaxe]

Colonel White,
How long do you anticipate accepting input via this thread; I.E. is there a "thread deadline?"

Thanks!

[LtCol White]

There is no deadline on here. We are leaving the thread open. We have received a tremendous amount of ideas. Many feasibile and some not. We're in the process of assembline everyting in a reviewable form and trying to make sure no items have slipped through the cracks. We're making good progress and everyone's input is greatly appreciated.

We really need folks to help out now in identifying 39-1 issues to be addressed. Pylon has set up a thread here to collect these. This is an huge undertaking and requires MANY sets of eyes so we can get everything addressed and cleared up in the manual.

[Stonewall]

Lt Col White:  

I am confident this will be a fair and just effort to create, replace, enhance or otherwise improve the uniforms for CAP across the board.  As I am sure you have seen "My utility uniform proposal", I would like this to be taken into consideration as a future option during the transition phase for the Air Force into ABUs.  As you can tell, the tone throughout the thread is that I advocate two main points.  First and foremost, one utility uniform for all members, regardless of weight and grooming.  Secondly, something I consider to be the common sense aspect of my proposal, a functional uniform that both looks professional in garrison, but more importantly serves a purpose for emergency services. 

Like others, I was impressed to learn that in my poll, more than half of those who voted for the 4 options voted for my prototype uniform.  Out of 71 voters 38 voted for the Tru-Spec "Tactical Response Uniform" in olive drab green with white on ultramarine tapes and insignia.

Here are the poll results after  71 voters:

Stonewall's option for everyone   38 (53.5%)
Keep BDUs & BBDUs   13 (18.3%)
Hold out for ABUs   19 (26.8%)
Tell us your idea   1 (1.4%)

I appreciate NHQ's responsibility to please both the Air Force and our more than 55,000 members, but I do hope this simple poll demonstrates that a small group of dedicated CAP members show their desire not just for a change in lieu of the Air Force's transition to ABUs, but a more functional utility uniform.

Additionally, as previously posted in your "NHQ Uniform Committee" discussion, I highly suggest an online uniform proposal page on NHQ's eServices website that can show potential uniforms being considered as well as a means for the members to vote on what they think would best be suited for CAP.  This could last for one month and allow for each member to vote once for their choice of changes to service, utility, and flight uniform standards.

Thank you for taking on this challenging task.  I hope all of our voices are heard.

Semper Vigilans.

[sfdefender]

Taken from the Tru Spec website:

Police officer from Oklahoma
"The uniform (TRU) is very well constructed and fits like the ordinary BDU outfit. That is the only similarity between the two uniforms. The TRU has several design features that make it far superior to the traditional BDU.

The TRU shirt has a unique collar that can be worn up or down to help protect your neck and keep out debris. It has hook & loop faced shoulder pockets for patches and there are reinforced internal elbow pockets for elbow pad inserts. There is also a convenient place to keep your pens and pencils on your sleeve.

The TRU trouser has two slanted cargo pockets with drain holes and elastic drawstrings. Both have an internal 5"x 5" hidden pocket. It has reinforced internal knee pockets for knee pad inserts and a lower leg pocket on both legs. I particularly liked the 1" wide belt loops that have a 2 1/4" opening.

I found the most significant thing about this uniform to be the button fly with a drawstring waste. I did not have to keep adjusting the waist size like on ordinary BDU uniforms. The heavy drawstrings in the legs also stayed tied throughout training which made a nice surprise.

"I would definitely recommend the Tactical Response Uniform from Tru-Spec without any hesitation."

[arajca]

Specify appropriate cold-weather clothing for wear with the bdu/bbdu. Something like:
Black or dark blue watch-style hat, knit or fleece.
Black or dark blue snowpants worn over the bdu/bbdu trousers when weather and environmental conditions dictate.
Black or dark brown footwear, appropriate to the conditions expected.
Black or dark blue gaiters, as appropriate to the conditions.
Black, blue, or brown gloves or mittens as appropriate to the temperature.
These will only be worn when the weather conditions are too cold for standard clothing.

[jason.pennington]

Did you read the beginning of the thread?

No, I did not.  Sorry.  I skimmed over the first 10 - 15 pages or so.

[SAR-EMT1]

Col White: all told how many members does your committee have?
When you have compiled all your findings, who exactly from NHQ and USAF will be reviewing them?
Thank you.