NHQ Uniform Committee

[RiverAux]

Except it is not the Air Force service uniform, they are Air Force style uniforms.  Start calling it the Air Force service uniform and people will begin thinking we can wear unaltered AF uniforms. 

[RogueLeader]

^^ ah darn. . . Where'd I put those gray epaulets?  oh shoot.  I just sold them and bought hard rank. . . .
[/drift]

[Hawk200]

Except it is not the Air Force service uniform, they are Air Force style uniforms.  Start calling it the Air Force service uniform and people will begin thinking we can wear unaltered AF uniforms. 

Wrong. It is an Air Force uniform. It has Civil Air Patrol distinctive insignia, but it is an Air Force uniform.

If it wasn't, why does this line exist in CAP 39-1?

"All uniform items must display a USAF certification label.  Members who buy uniform items from other than AAFES MCSSs should check the reliability of the seller and make sure each garment has an USAF certification label."

Since you'll probably want to check for yourself, it's para 1-8. e, starting about line 6.

This stuff about it's not an Air Force uniform is pure bovine excrement. Zigzag was right.

I'd suggest  the term "Air Force variant". It's more accurate than "style". We don't wear something "like" or "similar to" the Air Force uniform. We wear the Air Force uniform. It just has some different costume jewelry.

[afgeo4]

Except it is not the Air Force service uniform, they are Air Force style uniforms.  Start calling it the Air Force service uniform and people will begin thinking we can wear unaltered AF uniforms. 

Wrong. It is an Air Force uniform. It has Civil Air Patrol distinctive insignia, but it is an Air Force uniform.

If it wasn't, why does this line exist in CAP 39-1?

"All uniform items must display a USAF certification label.  Members who buy uniform items from other than AAFES MCSSs should check the reliability of the seller and make sure each garment has an USAF certification label."

Since you'll probably want to check for yourself, it's para 1-8. e, starting about line 6.

This stuff about it's not an Air Force uniform is pure bovine excrement. Zigzag was right.

I'd suggest  the term "Air Force variant". It's more accurate than "style". We don't wear something "like" or "similar to" the Air Force uniform. We wear the Air Force uniform. It just has some different costume jewelry.

Air Force uniform items do not an Air Force uniform make. When you say "USAF uniform", it means a uniform that conforms to all USAF regulations regarding uniform wear. What we wear are CAP uniforms that conform to CAP regulations regarding uniform wear. We have USAF style uniforms and Corporate uniforms. CAP members are strictly and categorically prohibited from wearing military uniforms since CAP members are not members of the military.

USAF authorized garments are used in CAP uniforms, that's true, but that isn't a USAF uniform.

A bunch of authorized clothes become a uniform when they are worn in specific combinations as to identify the wearer as a member of a specific service/organization. The organization can be a military branch or a fire department or a parcel delivery company, it doesn't matter. They all have uniforms and all uniforms are specifically regulated in how they are worn to be a true identifier.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Our Congressional charter authorizes CAP members to "Wear the uniform of the United States Air Force with certain identifying insignia."

When you speak of a "CAP uniform," I think of the TPU, the White and Gray, the Golf Shirt, the Smurf Suit, and the Mexican Wedding Shirt.

[mikeylikey]

and the Mexican Wedding Shirt.

Ah...... How I do miss seeing those walking around!

[ZigZag911]

Except it is not the Air Force service uniform, they are Air Force style uniforms.  Start calling it the Air Force service uniform and people will begin thinking we can wear unaltered AF uniforms. 

Good point, I stand corrected.....whatever the niceties of terminology, such language regarding USAF blues could be misleading.....I'd still like to call corporate blues "CAP Service Uniform".

[Hawk200]

Our Congressional charter authorizes CAP members to "Wear the uniform of the United States Air Force with certain identifying insignia."

This is the point I'm trying to make. You can take any military uniform and put whatever different insignia you want on it, but it's still that military's uniform.

Our insignia makes it specific to us, but it's "borrowed" from our mother branch, namely the Air Force.

That Air Force "style" terminology is incorrect and should be eliminated from the manual.

You can call a rose a petunia, but it's still a rose.

[PhotogPilot]

and the Mexican Wedding Shirt.

Ah...... How I do miss seeing those walking around!

Nothing says "Hi, I'm a South American drug lord" like a big cigar and a Noriega shirt.

[Bill]

I think if we use AFI 10-2701 para 1-3 as our guide in this matter then we have two uniform series authorized by the Air Force; CAP Air Force-style uniform, and CAP Distinctive uniform series.  That  would be be for Dress, Service, Field and flight uniforms. Naturally civilian clothing is always an approved item for our members.

bc

[Pylon]

I think if we use AFI 10-2701 para 1-3 as our guide in this matter then we have two uniform series authorized by the Air Force; CAP Air Force-style uniform, and CAP Distinctive uniform series.  That  would be be for Dress, Service, Field and flight uniforms.

Para 1-1 of CAPM 39-1 explains that the Air Force actually only authorizes and has control over our AF-style uniforms closet.  CAP exercises control over the CAP distinctive/corporate uniforms.

Naturally civilian clothing is always an approved item for our members.

Not in many circumstances.  The newest CAPM 39-1 guidelines require a uniform be worn for pretty much everything... flying in CAP aircraft, participating in any capacity with Cadet Programs, and so on.  Civilian clothing isn't always an option for senior members.

[mikeylikey]

Para 1-1 of CAPM 39-1 explains that the Air Force actually only authorizes and has control over our AF-style uniforms closet.  CAP exercises control over the CAP distinctive/corporate uniforms.

That is not entirely true as seen when the AF asked CAP to remove the "US" cutouts and AF buttons from the TPU jacket.  They also seemed to have "control" over other various items associated with that uniform. 

[Pylon]

That is not entirely true as seen when the AF asked CAP to remove the "US" cutouts and AF buttons from the TPU jacket.  They also seemed to have "control" over other various items associated with that uniform. 

You're right.  The AF also maintains control over their insignia and devices, that's also in Para 1-1; I was over-summarizing the paragraph.  Should have included that.

CAP still controls corporate uniforms, but if we want to use their devices or accessories, it appears we need their approval.

[Bill]

Well  I stand corrected on the Civilian clothing, you are most correct when it comes to flying but my comments were more about us working with our parent organization and trying to incorporate their full statements in our own regulations as it relates to our uniform choices, to help reduce confusion...

Then here are some other comments to take a shot at:

Colonel White and his Committee, my other thoughts on the issue of uniforms and possible changes.

1.   Because of cost to members I would limit any immediate changes to these two uniform series.  Members in some cases have spent several hundred dollars on items only to have them changed for unknown reason in less than 30 days.  COST should be the driving force to any immediate changes.  I would encourage waiting until the Air Forces approves CAP move to the new Service and Field uniforms in the CAP Air Force style uniform series. 

2.   While the need should be for uniformity between the two uniform series, making a change now only to change it again in two or less years seems less cost effective.  If uniformity is the second goal to cost then in addition to standardizing name tags and grade insignia on the Service uniforms this should be the same with the Field uniform group; ABU/BBDU, dark blue tape with white letters and silver and gold grade insignia on dark blue.  I would be in favor of phasing out the Blue Battle Dress Uniform style to the 511 Tactical Duty Uniform series as the CAP Distinctive Field Uniform in either Digi-Woodland or TDU Khaki, with both shirt and trousers costing about $36 each.  This would be for all the reasons listed elsewhere on this thread.  The Digi-Woodland would make the uniform near the color combination as the new Air Force ABU, but the shirt is distinctively different form all Armed Service field uniform groups. This uniform comes in 65% polyester/35% cotton ripstop or cotton twill. (One source is www.qmuniforms.com) In addition the current Field Jackets could be used with this uniform pattern, along with all the woodland cold weather gear talked about.

3.   Possible immediate change to the CAP Distinctive uniform series would be to discontinuing the White and Gray uniform, and then include the fuzzy members with neatly trimmed beards and hair in the White and Blue uniform.

4.   While I personally don't care for the polo combination it has it's place but should be limited to only the dark blue polo shirt with gray or dark blue cotton, dickey, docker, or even 511 slacks.  I would be in favor of the current polo being replaced in some distant future with a better quality dark blue polo shirt, possibly a 511 type.  This new one polo shirt could be ordered with Civil Air Patrol embroidered over the left pocket, and the member's last name embroidered over the right area even with the title on the left side.

5.   Regardless of which CAP uniform is being worn the standard for badges and ribbons should be the same.  After all these are both uniforms that are Distinctive to CAP, pursuant to the Air Force Instructions on the subject.  I would encourage that the current standard for the CAP Air force-style service uniform be extended to the CAP Distinctive service uniform.  The medals and badges worn on the CAP Air Force style Mess Dress uniform be extended to the CAP Distinctive Dress Uniform (New CAP service jacket worn with bow tie), no need for hard shoulder boards, or tux shirts, just more expense that has no real need to make this uniform look more formal.

6.   I know a lot has been said about the silver sleeve braid and the silver hat strap, I don't care for the sleeve braid if it doesn't reflect the grade, but I like the silver hat strap.  Clearly I am in the minority of this group, but for the sense of uniformity, when the change is made I would be willing to give it up.  However, I don't suppose we would want to ask the Air Force if we could put the silver hat strap on the Service Hat when we were it with the CAP Air-Force-style Service or Mess Dress uniform groups?  That might help with some of the other proposed changes to make our CAP members in the CAP Air Force-style uniform distinctively different at a distance and in low-light conditions.

That is my two and a half cents for what it is worth.

bc

[mikeylikey]

You're right.  The AF also maintains control over their insignia and devices, that's also in Para 1-1; I was over-summarizing the paragraph.  Should have included that.

CAP still controls corporate uniforms, but if we want to use their devices or accessories, it appears we need their approval.

I was only trying to say that the AF has more controll over what we wear than what is generally known.

[DNall]

1. They are legally AF uniforms. They are controlled by law, and some yahoo could go to jail for imitating a CAP member in uniform. Same with CGAux.

2. AF does control the cloths as well as the insignia that go on them. They had to authorize wear of the current service & BDU uniforms, as well as contniued wear by cadets by not adults of the old style service coat. And, they will have to authorize wear of the new service coat when it comes out, as well as the initial wear date for ABUs & what they will allow the stuff on there to look like.

3. To be perfectly technical... it is and has always been the "Air Force STYLE" or (and pay attention here so the meaning isn't lost) the "corporate STYLE" uniform. There is no such thing as uniforms of the CAP corporation. The phrase "corporate uniform" is just a short hand that has now found its way into official documents. However, it originally referred to standard business attire with the addition of CAP nametags & such - ie the blazer combo. for most of CAP's history, the only "uniforms" were AF-style & approved by the AF. The alternative was completely civilian & was meant to be a no-cost item since most people already have it.

/end point of order.

[sfdefender]

CAP should consider authorizing the wear of both the tan and olive, flesh-out (desert) boots with the BDU.  It makes boots more affordable and the availability of them in the FEDLOG system means that CAP could continue to get them at no cost through DRMO and other sources.  I have already had to turn down mulitple boxes of used pairs from the National Guard.

Additionally, I would be all for Stonewall's OD Green TRU (KBU) and it would look great with the new tan/olive boots. His concept uniform is a true winner!!!

MATTHEW J BREWER
Capt, USCAP
PCR-OR-065

[afgeo4]

1. They are legally AF uniforms. They are controlled by law, and some yahoo could go to jail for imitating a CAP member in uniform. Same with CGAux.

2. AF does control the cloths as well as the insignia that go on them. They had to authorize wear of the current service & BDU uniforms, as well as contniued wear by cadets by not adults of the old style service coat. And, they will have to authorize wear of the new service coat when it comes out, as well as the initial wear date for ABUs & what they will allow the stuff on there to look like.

3. To be perfectly technical... it is and has always been the "Air Force STYLE" or (and pay attention here so the meaning isn't lost) the "corporate STYLE" uniform. There is no such thing as uniforms of the CAP corporation. The phrase "corporate uniform" is just a short hand that has now found its way into official documents. However, it originally referred to standard business attire with the addition of CAP nametags & such - ie the blazer combo. for most of CAP's history, the only "uniforms" were AF-style & approved by the AF. The alternative was completely civilian & was meant to be a no-cost item since most people already have it.

/end point of order.

I don't believe there is a law against imitating a member of a non-profit corporation unless you use it to defraud someone. Thus, imitating an officer or cadet of CAP isn't illegal. We are not the military.

However, if some "yahoo" is imitating a USAF officer, then sure, there is a federal law against that, but CAP officers aren't USAF officers.

[arajca]

Actually, the same law that covers impersonating an AF officer covers impersonating an officer of its auxillary. Some posted it in another discussion here - not sure where.

So, while impersonating an officer of a non-profit may not be a crime, impersonating a CAP officer is.

[CASH172]

But if we're not the full time auxiliary, someone impersonating a CAP officer wouldn't be a crime.  Unless if they were at a AFAM location.