NHQ Uniform Committee

[Eclipse]

Actually looking back at those STWOK-era uniforms, they look pretty sharp.

I bet if we went to those our recruiting would skyrocket!   

[ColonelJack]

Here Col West, a less than good guy involved in a plot, serves as an allegory for Lt Col Ollie North.

The bizarre thing is ... "Colonel" West is wearing a Starfleet admiral's jacket.  There was never any provision (in canon) for Marines or the rank of colonel in Starfleet.

Now, back to topic.

Jack

[Major Carrales]

The bizarre thing is ... "Colonel" West is wearing a Starfleet admiral's jacket.  There was never any provision (in canon) for Marines or the rank of colonel in Starfleet.

Now, back to topic.

Jack

As we understand it, a "Colonel" in Starfleet should be wearing a "Captains" jacket (minus the gold braid on the flap and admiral's insignia.  However, places seem to explain that the rank of "Colonel" is more a position than a rank. 

Sort of like the unofficial use of the term "Commander" for a Wing or Group Commander in CAP.

[LtCol White]

Please stay on track guys!

[mikeylikey]

Refresher to get us back on track, and to help those that just joined us (so they don't have to read all 41 pages!)   

Could I take a moment to review what we have so far?

1.  AF Blues:

- No change likely on weight requirements.
- Switch from gray to blue epaulet sleeves, with "CAP" identified.

2.  TPU:

- Switch from silver braid to same blue as on AF coat.
- Lose silver chinstrap from flying saucer cap.
- Switch from hard rank to blue epaulet sleeve, same as AF coat.
- Shirt to have same blue epaulet with "CAP."
- "CAP" lapel brass to remain.
- Allow neatly-trimmed beards, but NOT long hair.
- Not resolved:  wear of military ribbons and badges... Same rules as on AF coat?

3.  White and Grays:

- History.

4.  Flight Suits:

- Retain dual flight suits, sage green and dark blue.
- Sew-on bright rank for both shoulders.
- Sage green background for AF flight suit, dark blue for blue flight suit.
- Not resolved:  embroidered name badges?

5.  BDU's:

- Retain BDU for time being.
- Introduce ABU on a schedule driven by the AF logistical chain.
- No change to BDU during phase-out period.
- Retain blue BDU for the fats and fuzzies.
- Switch to dark blue nametapes and rank background for BBDU.
- Unresolved:  Dark blue or sage green background for ABU tapes and rank?

6.  Golf Shirt:

- Retain as a casual uniform.
- Switch to khaki trousers (Is this correct, or unresolved?)
- Establish a single authorized golf shirt.

7.  Blazer Uniform:

- Retain for IACE and as an alternate dress uniform.
- Switch to khaki trousers (Again, was this resolved?)

Does this summarize what has been discussed and decided, or do I have something wrong?

So we all don't have to read back to page 24 to catch up. 

[SAR-EMT1]

This was asked earlier Col White but of wverything we have brought up so far, how likely is it that they will be accepted by the Air Force?

And of what we have discussed so far, how much of it has been previously submitted?

[JarakMaldon]

This may have come up already, and I apologize if it has, but was there any discussion on the Commander's Insignia?  Specifically, wearing insignia below the nametag as a graduated commander?

[Dragoon]

It's a great idea - if we also nixed the command service ribbon. 

We came out with the ribbon before USAF decided on the badge.  Now that they've got one, we should use it the same way they do.  And they don't have a ribbon.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Back on track:

Military badges.  39-1 says they should be "Subdued."  I have heard from some former Army guys that getting subdued BDU sew on badges is now nearly impossible.  This will probably resolve itself when we go to the ABU, but in the meantime there will be a transition period where guys will not be able to get sew-on badges.

Two suggestions:

1.  Authorize subdued pin-on badges during the transition period (which, reading the reg now, I don't think is specifically prohibited, anyway)  or...

2.  Authorize white-on-blue (or gold-on-blue for the Water Lilies) military badges on the BDU until the ABU comes out.

Also (as long as I'm still on track)

There are two tables of award precedence in 39-1.  The one showing the precedence of CAP awards lists "US Military Awards" as primary, then the CAP awards in their listed order, and lastly, "Foreign Awards."  That's good.  But...

The listing of precedence of the "US Military Awards" includes some foreign awards.  This causes confusion, and I think it is improper.  CAP awards SHOULD still take precedence over foreign awards.  I am especially adamant about this, since my foreign awards are from the Government of the Republic of (South) Vietnam, and that government did not last as long as the Civil Air Patrol has.

I'm pretty sure I know what happened.  Some "Zero-days-of-active-duty" NHQ type looked at one of the many military award charts when they drafted the regulation table.  The award charts include common foreign awards, but the fact that they are on a chart published in the United`States still does NOT make them "US Military Awards."

As long as we are re-writing 39-1, lets put the foreign awards where they should be.

[JarakMaldon]

2.  Authorize white-on-blue (or gold-on-blue for the Water Lilies) military badges on the BDU until the ABU comes out.

This is something I know is practiced already by many.  Several outlets who shall remain nameless produce badges in this flavor.  I have a few white-on-blue versions of my AF function badge on hand.

[Dragoon]

Personally, I vote for white and blue for all military badges.  There are enough places to do the embroidery, and mixing subdued and full color looks rather odd.

[Grumpy]

"Military badges.  39-1 says they should be "Subdued."  I have heard from some former Army guys that getting subdued BDU sew on badges is now nearly impossible.  This will probably resolve itself when we go to the ABU, but in the meantime there will be a transition period where guys will not be able to get sew-on badges."

Interesting, when I tried to find my AF Security Police speciality badge all I could find were subdued badges.  You are talking about the BDUs, right?

[Pylon]

Thanks for the note requesting a clarification for the bronze "V" device, and also on clarifying blue-on-white embroidery as an option for existing authorized badges.

[ddelaney103]

"Military badges.  39-1 says they should be "Subdued."  I have heard from some former Army guys that getting subdued BDU sew on badges is now nearly impossible.  This will probably resolve itself when we go to the ABU, but in the meantime there will be a transition period where guys will not be able to get sew-on badges."

Interesting, when I tried to find my AF Security Police speciality badge all I could find were subdued badges.  You are talking about the BDUs, right?

What they mean is the Army does not sew wings or badges on the ACU, they wear pin on in garrison and nothing in the field.  Therefore, it will be harder to get black on green embroidered badges for Airborne, Air Assault and CIB's.

The AF will face the same problem when all the AF badges are midnight blue on gray.

[ddelaney103]

I don't believe we should go to blue CAP epaulets for the jackets - we should stay with gray.

I also believe we should go with either white on dark blue tapes/bright on dark  blue insignia for all field or flight wear. 

We should also plan to sunset the BBDU and blue flight/utility jumpsuit in favor of gray BDU(GBDU)/jumpsuit/flightsuit when CAP sunsets the woodland in favor of ABU.

When that happens, all tapes and insignia should match the AF (midnight blue on gray).  We should use midnight blue on gray tapes on the CAP ABU and GBDU instead of the AF's midnight blue on AFPAT.  The stripes for CAP SM NCO's should be the ABU stripes on both the ABU and GBDU.

[NEBoom]

I don't believe we should go to blue CAP epaulets for the jackets - we should stay with gray.

I also believe we should go with either white on dark blue tapes/bright on dark  blue insignia for all field or flight wear. 

We should also plan to sunset the BBDU and blue flight/utility jumpsuit in favor of gray BDU(GBDU)/jumpsuit/flightsuit when CAP sunsets the woodland in favor of ABU.

When that happens, all tapes and insignia should match the AF (midnight blue on gray).  We should use midnight blue on gray tapes on the CAP ABU and GBDU instead of the AF's midnight blue on AFPAT.  The stripes for CAP SM NCO's should be the ABU stripes on both the ABU and GBDU.

So you're advocating two color changes for nametapes?  Change from ultramarine to dark blue now, then change again to "midnight blue on grey" when the ABU comes in?  Why make a change to the current uniforms if all that's going to happen to them is phase out in the (relatively) near future??  We should stick with the ultramarine until the ABU phase in, then change tape colors the same time we change uniforms.  Cheaper/easier that way.

And I'm not at all opposed to dropping the Blue BDUs as a corporate uniform and going with another color.  I mentioned a while back in one of these threads that a lot of the BBDUs I've seen tend to fade fairly quickly, and end up kind of ratty looking.  Don't know if I'd agree with grey as the color to change to.  Wondering if too light of a color would show dirt too easily.  Plain OD was more like what I had in mind.  Whatever though.  As long as we standardize our insignia across AF and Corporate on all uniforms (service, utility, and flight) I'll be happy.  Don't really care what colors we settle on, just want uniformity.

[JohnKachenmeister]

"Military badges.  39-1 says they should be "Subdued."  I have heard from some former Army guys that getting subdued BDU sew on badges is now nearly impossible.  This will probably resolve itself when we go to the ABU, but in the meantime there will be a transition period where guys will not be able to get sew-on badges."

Interesting, when I tried to find my AF Security Police speciality badge all I could find were subdued badges.  You are talking about the BDUs, right?

Yes, on the BDU.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.  AF subdued badges are probably still widely available, but with most of the Army in ACU, subdued Army badges for the BDU have suddenly become as rare as a conservative in San Francisco.

[Hawk200]

AF subdued badges are probably still widely available, but with most of the Army in ACU, subdued Army badges for the BDU have suddenly become as rare as a conservative in San Francisco.

That's why I picked up seven packs of Army Aviation wings while I was at Eustiss. The woman thought I was nuts, but she was happy that she didn't have to inventory them to send back.

[foriley]

Allow vendors other than Vanguard.

Give TPU a name. "Corporate uniform" is overused and duplicative.

Uniform should be "uniform" within CAP and to the greatest degree possible within USAF. This will be cost effective and uniform. (I'm in favor of dropping use of USAF uniform for the TPU near-USAF one.) We look rediculous when two versions of "the uniform" are permitted in classes, functions, etc. Look at some graduation pictures. It gets worse when the golf shirt / gray trousers are tossed in as well. But two may be the least we can get down to. However, within that absurdity the shirts, rank, sleeves, etc should be as close as possible.

If not able to wear USAF or TPU then wear civvies. Coat, tie and slacks. And when ABU/BDU is worn then civilian wear should be work trousers and work shirt w/ collar. Everybody wears the same style shoes regardless of USAF, TPU or civvies (includes boots when wearing work trousers).

AF uniform manual as the governing document with CAP supplement. No contradictions of USAF manual, which will resolve issues of metal/plastic/cloth, velcro/sewn, black/brown, leather/cloth, subdued/bright, etc. Only modifications of USAF manual permitted to make CAP distinctive versions of approved items.

Use the USAF fitness standards (http://www.af.mil/news/USAF_Fitness_Charts.pdf) with Marginal or better required to wear USAF or TPU. USAF will have to define standards for advanced ages not on cited charts.

Loose the double breasted TPU coat. It looks Naval. It's also expensive compared to single breasted.

USAF style TPU shirt. Not just white, but same pockets, etc. Back to "Uniform means uniform".

USAF sleeves on TPU shirt(s) will be much cheaper than "CAP" blue sleeves. Again, back to using the USAF uniform manual above.

AF hued TPU braid rather than silver & AF chin strap rather than silver. See above.

ABU asap w/ all supplements for weather and temperature. This includes foul wx, extreme cold, etc.

Designate a glider and glider ground crew uniform. This will mean approving a boonie style hat, shorts or convertible pants, etc.

Designate a Ground Team vest in high visibility yellow, orange or green. It's impossible to see Ground Teams in camo. Require for ABU/BDU and civilian clothes.

Designate a Flight Line high visibility vest, hat and gloves. Again these are positions that need to be seen, not blend in. Require for all flight line crew regardless of underlying uniform / civvies.

Incident command patch should be worn by Incident Commander only. It's odd and confusing to have one IC but several wearing an IC patch.

Designate a PT uniform... well, if using the USAF uniform manual that's already done... just change the t-shirt to CAP.

Dump the psuedo-flightsuit. Wear a flightsuit or wear ABU/BDU... or work pants and a work shirt, with boots/work shoes.

All flightsuits should be NOMEX or similar. Green, navy blue or high visibility orange. (We're not trying to hide our aircrews if they go down after all!) In mountains, desert or unpopulated areas an orange flightsuit would be far more safety prudent than hard to spot green or blue.

Anyway... I'm sure I'll think of more, but that's my $0.02

[ZigZag911]

Let's call the corporate service uniform (formerly 'TPU') the "CAP Service Uniform"; then we can start calling the 'military style uniform' by its proper name the "Air Force service uniform".