NHQ Uniform Committee

[MIKE]

Can't leave well enough alone can ya. 

[Hawk200]

One major issue with the wear of "Army Black" epaulets across CAP uniforms is that the CSU (TPU) without the Capt Kangaroo jacket will look almost identical to the new "old" blue Army service uniform worn as a "class B." 

Not really. The Army dress blue pants are a lot lighter blue, almost royal. The CSU pants are a navy blue.

The shirt being considered for the ASU is a grey one. The CSU uses a white shirt.

In order to confuse an Army class B with a CSU lite, you'd have to be color blind in a few different spectrums, and completely ignorant of uniforms in general. Anyone that actually wears a military uniform isn't going to be confused at all.

[ColonelJack]

The Army dress blue pants are a lot lighter blue, almost royal. The CSU pants are a navy blue.

And their pants have a wide gold stripe down the outside.  (Well, from Corporal on up they do.)

The shirt being considered for the ASU is a grey one. The CSU uses a white shirt.

It's also going to have a herringbone twill to it and be of a heavier-weight fabric than the current green ones.  It would be most difficult to confuse the new Army gray shirt with the CSU white one. 

Jack

[DNall]

I don't, just for the simple reason that black is Army and the Air Force is our parent organization.

You know, the Army doesn't have any ownership on the color black. And these are Air Force uniforms.

But to address another point, are we going to end up with people confusing us with AFROTC cadets if we had black epaulets?

AFROTC uses diagnal lines (pictured) for GMC (first two years) & navy officer style stripes for POC (last two years). CAP uses standard officer grade insignia. Little chance of confusion. The one issue would be with FO/TFO/SFO, for which the version on BDU/BBDU should be embroidered rather than the current stripes. I'd also recommend a blank slide (just the CAP) for SMWOG, who we should really start calling officer candidates.

The Army officer grade slides also have a gold stripe at the base (and no CAP embroidered on them), where AF slides have none for company grade & a silver stripe for field grades (top & bottom for gen officers). I would point out though that we could use the same pre-embroidery epaulet stock to make ours from, which should result in cost savings.

The Army blues (currently the formal uniform & being mod'd to the new service dress) are significantly dif. The pants are very distinguished from the AF, and the grade is indicated by shoulder straps (think John Wayne in some old cavalry uniform). The shirt to go with that uniform for class-Bs is going to be gray - a color which they don't seem to think CAP has exclusive ownership of. Again, little chance of confusion.

[Hawk200]

I'd also recommend a blank slide (just the CAP) for SMWOG, who we should really start calling officer candidates.

This idea of a blank slide for SMWOG is a solution looking for a problem. Such an insignia serves no purpose.

If you want to put an "OTC" (for Officer Training Corps, like the old days) or "OC" (for officer candidate), I can get on board with it. Make the insignia meaningful. There is no reason for a person to buy something that they won't wear more than six months.

[FlyingTerp]

Not really. The Army dress blue pants are a lot lighter blue, almost royal. The CSU pants are a navy blue.

The shirt being considered for the ASU is a grey one. The CSU uses a white shirt.

In order to confuse an Army class B with a CSU lite, you'd have to be color blind in a few different spectrums, and completely ignorant of uniforms in general. Anyone that actually wears a military uniform isn't going to be confused at all.

Good to hear I was wrong on the ASU.  I pulled out my black slides from my SDF days and threw them on my white CSU shirt.  It looked pretty sharp next to the blue pants.  Hopefully it will be considered as a possibility.

[DNall]

I'd also recommend a blank slide (just the CAP) for SMWOG, who we should really start calling officer candidates.

This idea of a blank slide for SMWOG is a solution looking for a problem. Such an insignia serves no purpose.

If you want to put an "OTC" (for Officer Training Corps, like the old days) or "OC" (for officer candidate), I can get on board with it. Make the insignia meaningful. There is no reason for a person to buy something that they won't wear more than six months.

That's fair.

I don't like now that we use the pin on CAP cutouts to designate SMWOG. It makes pin holes from repeated use that sometimes damage the shirt, when after six months they're going to wear epaulet slides for the rest of their career. And, it makes the 18yo SMWOG & the 17yo C/AB look exactly alike, especially if I standardize them to the same blue nameplate. I was just looking to put the designation on the epaulet versus the collar.

AFROTC, AF Acad, & OTS each have a slightly dif epaulet design to designate the grades within their cadet/candidate structures. I didn't think we needed to do anything like that, just use a basic epaulet slide. It's not a real big issue though. I just thought it'd be nice to clean that up a bit.

I'm a lot more in favor of designating/calling them officer candidates than I am concerned with how we designate the status on the uniform for a few months. I think it better psychologically emphasizes that they are supposed to be in a train up period to earn their officership rather than just waiting for paperwork to process, and it allows us to get rid of the "senior member" term all together. That's off topic though, sorry.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Or, the UNIT could spring for a few gray slides and issue them out to the FNG's.  The unit would recover the blank gray slides once officer rank was awarded.

[Pylon]

Or, the UNIT could spring for a few gray slides and issue them out to the FNG's.  The unit would recover the blank gray slides once officer rank was awarded.

Bingo!

CAP SMwoG already have to buy the metal cutouts for grade insignia which they won't use after 6 months or less as it stands.  So a few bucks plus or minus isn't a huge deal, especially if we can change their flight cap to the officer type and save them a few bucks there.

Here's the issue with the CAP cutouts, besides the holes in the collar.  If the blue shouldermarks get approved, along with the blue nameplate (for the one epaulet, one nameplate, one organization appearance) a C/AB would be identical in service dress blues to a SMwoG. 

The blank epaulets are $6, the CAP cutouts $3.35.  Not a big difference in cost, again - especially if we can eliminate the need for SMwoG to wear the enlisted cap for 6 months or less, then have to go out and buy an officer one.  The savings there would more than make up for the extra $2.65  The blank epaulet also establishes continuity with all other senior members in blues -- SM officers wear epaulets, SM FOs wear epaulets, and SM NCOs can wear epaulets.  Makes sense from an organizational standpoint to have everyone in the senior member class of membership wearing the same epaulets - again for the one organization, one look approach.  Much easier for outsiders, cadets, and newbies to tell who is who in the organization as well.

Simplicity really is beautiful.

[Major Carrales]

Or, the UNIT could spring for a few gray slides and issue them out to the FNG's.  The unit would recover the blank gray slides once officer rank was awarded.

Bingo, Kach, that is the sort of thing we do for cadets.  We issue them the CAP Cutouts and then they return, exchange, them at each promotion.

[MIKE]

Yo Mike... One of the things I would recommend is to get rid of epaulets for NCOs a la USAF.  Sleeve grade only.

[Dragoon]

Or...

We only want to return to the condition that CAP was once in.

Metal rank on the shoulders of the service dress blue was at one time a normal part of the uniform.

If we want to return to the condition that CAP was once in, we need metal rank....on bright red epaulets!   

[Hawk200]

Or...

We only want to return to the condition that CAP was once in.

Metal rank on the shoulders of the service dress blue was at one time a normal part of the uniform.

If we want to return to the condition that CAP was once in, we need metal rank....on bright red epaulets!   

If you're asking for that, you gotta carry it all the way. In other words: Khaki.

Bright red just wouldn't look right on our navy blue uniforms.

[SAR-EMT1]

Lets not go to extremes ok?

[BillB]

Not only khaki, but OD and pink and greens luftwaffe looking wings and a maximum of 9 ribbons. And don't forget the red sleeve braid.

[LtCol White]

OK guys, back on track please

[arajca]

How about adding a black stocking cap (knit or fleece) to the bdu/bbdu outerwear for use in cold weather?

[ZigZag911]

Has the possibility of metal rank on the epaulets of service jacket (blouse) been considered? With addition of pin on CAP command crest, to make it distinct from actual AF?

[ColonelJack]

Has the possibility of metal rank on the epaulets of service jacket (blouse) been considered? With addition of pin on CAP command crest, to make it distinct from actual AF?

Actually, I believe it has been addressed recently (within the last couple of years).  AF said no way.

Many believe that's why "He whose name shall not be spoken" created the Corporate Service Uniform ... to wear metal rank on a service jacket that AF had no say-so over.

Even so, I think the CSU was a great idea for a lot of other reasons.

Jack

[Pylon]

Has the possibility of metal rank on the epaulets of service jacket (blouse) been considered? With addition of pin on CAP command crest, to make it distinct from actual AF?

I believe that exact proposal was already fielded with negative results.  Metal rank is not in our future.  I like the idea of the one blue epaulet - same epaulet on everything from outerwear and sweaters to blues and service coat, on both corporate and AF-style.  The senior members would have matching epaulets and nameplates as the cadets, again on both corporate and AF-style, and we'd look like *gasp* one organization.