NHQ Uniform Committee

[RiverAux]

I know that somewhere in the depths of this thread it has been recommended that any BDU-ABU or new Service Dress uniform transitions be extended.  I would like to make the suggestion that rather than having a specific sunset date for any new service dress uniform that a "until no longer servicable" rule apply to them in particular. 

Unlike the fatigue uniforms, these are pricy items that are purchased solely for CAP use and quite frankly, I think CAP shouldn't ask its members to buy more than 1 set during their career (barring any major decreases or increases in body size).  Since they are not worn all that often by most senior members in particular they are probably more likely to go to civilian wear that they already own rather than buy a new service coat for $150-200. 

Frankly, it won't really take long for only a few people to be wearing the old style uniforms so it won't be quite as jarring as all the other uniform variations that will continue to be worn anyway.

[ZigZag911]

Cadet officer shoulder baorsds were a huge pain!

I'd rather pay for a different color for the shoulder marks -- maybe royal blue, to distinguish us from Real AF?

[JayT]

   IF the AF was to come back and say no to blue, despite our best efforts then the next compromise idea might be to ask for black. we just need to get rid of the grey. I know some of you like the grey, but it just doesn't look great. Besides grey would look horrible on the CSU. if we can't have blue or black then I think we should stay how we are; grey on AF & blue on CSU.

So what you're saying is "People who like grey, they just like it because it's their opinion."

and then the next sentence you say "Grey looks horrible."

then you say "Black would look better."
(paraphrased of course)

Black would be chang just for changes sake.

And to another poster, whats the difference between the fatigues and BDUs really? If we say 'Wear until no longer servicable,' we'll have members wearing obselete uniform items for the next fifteen years. And we'll have Senior Members and cadets wearing BDU items over ABUs, etc etc etc.

[NAYBOR]

Because of the talk of the shoulder boards, here is a link to a Word document with some of the proposals I submitted to LtCol White.  I will not post the pictures directly to the site here.  Please understand that these are only PROPOSALS.  This is in addition to my other proposals on this board, made after these proposals.  Comments?

http://www.mediafire.com/?5jijeyzjbz2

[Hawk200]

Because of the talk of the shoulder boards, here is a link to a Word document with some of the proposals I submitted to LtCol White.  I will not post the pictures directly to the site here.  Please understand that these are only PROPOSALS.  This is in addition to my other proposals on this board, made after these proposals.  Comments?

http://www.mediafire.com/?5jijeyzjbz2

A few. Why bother using Air Force officer shoulder boards when there are CAP Mess dress boards already? This isn't consolidating anything at all. I think ours look better, but that's my opinion. Either way, we need to quit borrowing military stuff for the "pseudo-Air Force" CSU.

Second, what is wrong with our service cap device? I don't understand the "need" to retool an insignia that has served us well for a few decades. There is no reason to spend that money.

Third, I would remove references of placing any insignia below "U.S." insignia. That's like flying an American flag below a CAP flag. It just isn't done.

Also, the CSU is not a military uniform. In any way, shape, or form. We get to wear "U.S." insignia on the Air Force variants because those are  based on an actual military uniform. CSU is not, was not, and never will be a military uniform.

Your presentation obviously was a great deal of hard work, and could use a little polish, but it was good.

I just don't see the reason for the content.

[NAYBOR]

Hi Hawk,

The shoulder boards were actually boards I designed from scratch using AFROTC boards because they are clutch back.  I thought they'd match nicely with the silver commissioning braid on the CSU.  The boards are black, not blue, like the AF boards, making them distinctive from ANY mess dress boards the AF uses.  They just would've looked similar, and users would use black bow ties and studs for a CSU mess dress rather than the blue tie and silver studs the AF uses.  If we go to blue commissioning braid on all coats, then yes, the boards would look like our CAP mess dress boards--we could just change the silver braid on the boards to blue, and keep the AFROTC black boards with clutch back to be attached to the CSU.  Keep the black bow tie and black studs and cuff links.  Simple.

There is nothing wrong with our present service cap device in CAP--I just made some suggestions for ones to look more "in line" with our AF officer one.  I figured LtCol White said make ANY suggestions--I took that as an invitation to take an "...And the kitchen sink..." approach.

You're absolutely right about the US being below CAP on the coat.  I hadn't thought about that.  Bad idea.  And please believe me-- I NEVER intended the CSU to be treated as a military coat.  Absolutely not.  It is what it is--a CORPORATE coat, made to be a military equivalent.  I feel that we should take the CAP cutouts off of it, personally, to make it look more corporate, but I guess that if you do that, you'd have to take the metal rank off too.  We could put rank stripes on epaulet boards then, or on the sleeves, like corporate airlines do (thus making the CSU more "corporate"), but I think a lot in cap would have a "poop" fit over that.  Very "McPeak", but hey, McPeak tried to do it with a military coat, NOT a CSU.  If we did rank stripes, it would make the CSU CAP destinctive, and would never be confused for an AF officer.  Might be something we might want to think about.  I like the metal rank on the CSU, but rank stripes, either on epaulet boards or on the sleves, would make it look more corporate.

[AlphaSigOU]

The intent was commendable, but the execution went over like a lead zeppelin (pun intended). 

I 'ga-ron-tee' (apologies to the late Justin Wilson...) the shoulder boards would have been shot down in flames by the RealAirForce®, unless there was some distinctive CAP identifier (maybe a bullion CAP senior member hat device emblem?) added on the board along with bullion grade insignia. Doesn't matter if they were black or blue, as currently designed  in your plan they're currently indistinguishable from each other, at least in the eyes of the Air Force.

I'd keep the dark blue bowtie instead of black - less expense. Ditto with silver or mother-of-pearl studs and cufflinks. Keep the shirt plain or use a standard pleated tux shirt.

Not sure if the current mess dress boards have some loops under the boards or if you have to tack on velcro. If the latter's the case, if boards are go, then have Mudguard - ahem, Vanguard - modify the attachment to a clutch back or loop so they can be used for either mess dress or formal CSU.

I still scratch my head with the silver sleeve braid... "Ensign Lieutenant"? If they (the RealAirForce) let us go with dark blue sleeve braid, then I agree with you in using the current mess dress boards unchanged.

One thing I would like to see done with the CSU service dress jacket... narrow the frickin' lapels! As it is, if you have more than two rows of ribbons and wings, they get partially obscured. And staggering doesn't work well unless you have more than four rows of ribbons.

[FlyingTerp]

Because of the talk of the shoulder boards, here is a link to a Word document with some of the proposals I submitted to LtCol White.  I will not post the pictures directly to the site here.  Please understand that these are only PROPOSALS.  This is in addition to my other proposals on this board, made after these proposals.  Comments?

http://www.mediafire.com/?5jijeyzjbz2

IMHO, the CSU option with a bow tie is good enough for a "formal service dress."  Its not a Mess Dress, but it fits the occasion without the additional expense of multiple uniform items.

I'm a big fan of our current service cap insignia.  Its not expensive, its readily available, and its distinctively CAP.  I really don't see the need to modify the AF service cap insignia for our use.

I do agree with your statement to keep the CSU "as is."  I really don't see the need for any major overhaul of our uniforms.  Lets get 39-1 updated, so we don't have to deal with multiple conflicting policy letters.   Let's wear our uniforms proudly and correctly, and get on with the mission!

Thanks for the effort.  It was an interesting read.

[Hawk200]

I'm glad you took the comments in the spirit they were intended, NAYBOR. Some people would have thought I was just being a jerk.

The CSU could certainly use a few little "fancy" touches as a formal uniform. I think the bow-tie is a start, and mess dress shoulder boards would be pretty distinctive.

I know that in the Eighties, one of the allowances in AFR 35-10 was that certain grades (lieutenants, I believe) were permitted to use a flat two ribbon bar to affix the mess dress shoulder board to the epaulet of a standard service coat. It allowed those junior grades to use a regular service coat as a more formal uniform.

Now with full size medals, it made a pretty good Air Force equivalent to the Army Dress Blue (which is now becoming the Army Service uniform). If we had full size medals, we could have something formal without someone needing actual multiple uniforms.

[DNall]

   IF the AF was to come back and say no to blue, despite our best efforts then the next compromise idea might be to ask for black. we just need to get rid of the grey. I know some of you like the grey, but it just doesn't look great. Besides grey would look horrible on the CSU. if we can't have blue or black then I think we should stay how we are; grey on AF & blue on CSU.

It's a forgone conclusion at this point that we'll be using the same epaulets on: the AF-style & Corp-style service coat, and the shirts for both. As well as the same plastic nametag for both shirts, and same metal nametag for both jackets. The only real question is what color. The nametag will almost certainly be blue, either one or two line (same nametag for cadets), regardless of what the epaulets look like.

I do believe blue would be best option. I don't think the initial reaction of an AF viewer is going to be thinking they put the shirt rank on the jacket - maybe but it's not a strong argument to me. Right now they see the gray as SO out of place that they see it as jacked up from the start & go on to analyize the rest of the uniform before they make any attempt to figure out who or what you are.

I like black as a second choice, because it's low contrast versus the gray. It has its pros & cons, but I don't think it's been widely considered. Do understand it's an attempt at compromise to bring the CSU & AF service dress together, along with the people on each side of the issue. And of course it does have precedent in the AF family... Here's an example of how that looks:



If all that fails, then it will almost for sure be gray for everything. There is little question remaining that we're going to standardize btwn the corp & AF serivce uniforms, and attempt to standardize better w/ the AF in the process. Again though, the question is how we can come together to standardize & reduce the excessive number and varriety of items needed, and in so doing to control costs.

[DrJbdm]

The black actually looks sharp on the blues, and it actually doesn't look that bad on the coat. I really think that if we ended up going to black, then we should ditch the CAP printed on the slides unless we wore a regular AF 1 line nametag. If we stayed with the 2line nametag then the CAP on the slides is redundant.

1st choice would be Blue epaulet slides
2nd choice would be black epaulet slides

[AlphaSigOU]

Here's another thing that may need to be addressed for consideration by the committee:

Dark Blue Corporate Flight Suit and Utility Uniform (aka blue "faux flight suit") Headgear:

Either flight cap (from blues) or blue patrol cap from the CAP DFU (aka "Blue BDU") may be worn. Grade insignia, if worn on patrol cap, may be either ultramarine blue background (to match CAP DFU) or dark blue background to match embroidered dark blue background grade insignia (if worn) on corporate flight suit/utility uniform. (If dark blue is selected as the new nametape color then just keep dark blue.)

Flight cap/patrol cap is not worn in a FOD-critical area (flight line).

Flight cap/patrol cap may be stowed in either lower leg pocket of the blue flight suit/utility uniform; the pocket where the cap is stowed may remain unzipped and a portion of the flight cap/patrol cap may remain exposed. Pocket will remain zipped in a FOD critical area (flight line).

Questions, comments, groans, rotten tomatoes from the peanut gallery? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Here's another thing that may need to be addressed for consideration by the committee:

Dark Blue Corporate Flight Suit and Utility Uniform (aka blue "faux flight suit") Headgear:

Either flight cap (from blues) or blue patrol cap from the CAP DFU (aka "Blue BDU") may be worn. Grade insignia, if worn on patrol cap, may be either ultramarine blue background (to match CAP DFU) or dark blue background to match embroidered dark blue background grade insignia (if worn) on corporate flight suit/utility uniform. (If dark blue is selected as the new nametape color then just keep dark blue.)

Flight cap/patrol cap is not worn in a FOD-critical area (flight line).

Flight cap/patrol cap may be stowed in either lower leg pocket of the blue flight suit/utility uniform; the pocket where the cap is stowed may remain unzipped and a portion of the flight cap/patrol cap may remain exposed. Pocket will remain zipped in a FOD critical area (flight line).

Questions, comments, groans, rotten tomatoes from the peanut gallery? 

No groans or rotten tomatoes, Chuck, but a request for clarification.

Do I understand you to make it an option to wear the blue patrol cap OR flight cap with the blue flight suit?

Also, do I understand that you want to ditch the option of wearing metal rank insignia on the blue patrol cap?

If the responses are 1. YES and 2. NO, I think that's a good idea.  Any other responses, and we'll have to talk.

[Hawk200]

Is that an epaulet, or an actual shoulder board on those coats? Can't quite tell due to the angle of the picture and the resolution. If it's a shoulder board, that's the kind of thing I had in mind for our seniors. Something lower profile than the cadet shoulder boards, but still distinctive.

Just have to figure out a way to pin on the rank without making the board "rise".

[AlphaSigOU]

Here's another thing that may need to be addressed for consideration by the committee:

Dark Blue Corporate Flight Suit and Utility Uniform (aka blue "faux flight suit") Headgear:

Either flight cap (from blues) or blue patrol cap from the CAP DFU (aka "Blue BDU") may be worn. Grade insignia, if worn on patrol cap, may be either ultramarine blue background (to match CAP DFU) or dark blue background to match embroidered dark blue background grade insignia (if worn) on corporate flight suit/utility uniform. (If dark blue is selected as the new nametape color then just keep dark blue.)

Flight cap/patrol cap is not worn in a FOD-critical area (flight line).

Flight cap/patrol cap may be stowed in either lower leg pocket of the blue flight suit/utility uniform; the pocket where the cap is stowed may remain unzipped and a portion of the flight cap/patrol cap may remain exposed. Pocket will remain zipped in a FOD critical area (flight line).

Questions, comments, groans, rotten tomatoes from the peanut gallery? 

No groans or rotten tomatoes, Chuck, but a request for clarification.

Do I understand you to make it an option to wear the blue patrol cap OR flight cap with the blue flight suit?

Also, do I understand that you want to ditch the option of wearing metal rank insignia on the blue patrol cap?

If the responses are 1. YES and 2. NO, I think that's a good idea.  Any other responses, and we'll have to talk.

Correctamundo, Maj. Kach.  I'd like the option of either wearing the flight cap or the patrol cap (no unit ball cap*) on the blue flight suit/utility uniform. I don't want to ditch the metal grade on the blue patrol cap (Lord knows we finally got it, at least on the blue BDUs), but give them the option to go metal or cloth. My apologies for not being very clear in my previous post.

(*I might go for a ball cap only if it's plain dark blue in color. No unit identifiers, patches, farts and darts on the bill, etc.)

[JohnKachenmeister]

Is that an epaulet, or an actual shoulder board on those coats? Can't quite tell due to the angle of the picture and the resolution. If it's a shoulder board, that's the kind of thing I had in mind for our seniors. Something lower profile than the cadet shoulder boards, but still distinctive.

Just have to figure out a way to pin on the rank without making the board "rise".

Actually, looking at it close, I think those ARE shoulder boards, and they don't look bad.  When "Shoulder boards" were mentioned, I envisioned the Navy/Cadet type of oversize board.

I would suggest embroidered rank on the board, if selected.  Pins would look tacky and reduce the wear life of the board.  You don't get promoted enough in this outfit to make buying new boards a serious expense!

[JohnKachenmeister]

If shoulder boards could be applied without an epaulet, we could buy the enlisted service coat and save like $60 bucks initially.

[AlphaSigOU]

Is that an epaulet, or an actual shoulder board on those coats? Can't quite tell due to the angle of the picture and the resolution. If it's a shoulder board, that's the kind of thing I had in mind for our seniors. Something lower profile than the cadet shoulder boards, but still distinctive.

Just have to figure out a way to pin on the rank without making the board "rise".

They look to me like shoulder marks instead of hard boards.

IIRC, the shoulder marks used by BICE are black with standard US officer insignia.

[riffraff]

Black epaulettes already exist - viz-a-viz those used by the US Army officers.

[AlphaSigOU]

Black epaulettes already exist - viz-a-viz those used by the US Army officers.

Black? For the life of me I thought they were Army green.