NHQ Uniform Committee

[DNall]

2) Add pin-on Cadet Officer Insignia to the BDU shirt

I'd agree with that as an option.

I would be in favor of redesigned specialty track insignia... even if it was just decolored.  -- Get away from the technicolor badges we have now.

There are a couple older threads you can search back for on badge (incl wings) and ribbon rework. Those are good concepts!!! However, I'd strongly urge we keep away from such sub items and keep our eye on the ball. I think those are seperate issues we need to deal with AFTER the broader uniform picture comes into focus.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dennis:

I think we had the wing discussion on another forum.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

RogueLeader:

The silver-gray epaulets on the service coat would be only on the service coat, as would the brushed-metal nameplate. The blue could be worn against light-blue (meaning, shirts) and on sweaters. IT MAKES NO SENSE to put dark-blue epaulets on the service coat, since all it does is make the insignia embroidered. The whole reason the epaulets were put on the service coat in the first place was to CHANGE THE COLOR. With apologies to the colonel from Louisiana and the uniform committee, for someone to say "let's put the dark blue epaulet on the service coat" is to be misinformed on why the epaulets are there in the first place. You might as well just put the metal cutouts and the metal rank insignia back on, as it was before the "berry boards."

As for patches, I wouldn't want new ones. The color guard academy, PJOC, yada yada, doesn't need a patch. Schools in the Air Force don't have patches, so why should we? They're just cartoony, and make us look like Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts without the sash, not like the professional organization we say we are.

You misread me on the Air Force uniform philosophy. When the AF separated from the Army, the philosophy was developed -- and all the clutter disappeared. Did CAP ever authorize hash marks? Don't think so. But at that juncture in my message, I wasn't addressing CAP per se, just saying CAP has ignored the Air Force's "clean uniform" philosophy. So the silly shield-shaped specialty badges, which just junk up everything and are as cartoony as most of our patches, should be replaced with a more professional alternative, inspired by the Air Force's specialty badges, that look more along the lines of our ground-team badge and less like a Walt Disney clip-art proposal.

[O-Rex]

Even if you do have more ribbons than a bananna republic general, it's all in how you wear them: they CAN be overlapped, significantly reducing the coverage.  I've seen folks with a rack that literally goes to the bottom hem: looks tacky.

Perhaps there should be verbage that "medals shall not fall below x point on the Mess Dress jacket."

Uh, I'm talking about ribbons, not medals. You can't overlap ribbons. Medals, yes. Ribbons, no.

And yes, I was referring to miniature ribbons, not medals. The Air Force permits them, and even defines them in 36-2903. They're half the width as regular ones, and the ribbon material is the same width as the ribbon drape on mini medals. Two miniature ribbons would fit in the same position as a single standard ribbon. For example, a ribbon holder that holds three standard ribbons would hold six miniature ribbons.

Clear as mud?

Sorry, I thought you meant mini-medals-still, the overlapping concept still works.

Miniature ribbons?

Great, another set of something I have to buy. . . . .

[DNall]

I do think the cartoon shield badges look stupid... we had a discussion about updating those closer to AF several months ago. I'll try to look up some of those old pics later & put it in another thread.

Again, the badges and ribbonms are not going to be messed with in this effort. Not beyond number authorized and placement anyway, and maybe not even that.

Far as grade slides... their purpose is not to change the color of the epaulet. If they serve only to make it look embroidered (from a distance or to the blind I guess) then so be it. The point is to have it as reasonablly close to the AF as possible while remaining distinctive, and to standardize items across our uniform combinations. 

[Hawk200]

Miniature ribbons?

Great, another set of something I have to buy. . . . .

Notice I said allow not require. Not everyone would need or even want them. It shouldn't be mandatory.

2. Have Sr Mbr's without grade wear the gray epaulette sleeve without grade insignia.

These simple changes would make all our shoulders look the same ("uniform," you might even say) - not the silly mixed bag that one sees now. And #2 would keep new Sr Mbrs from having to poke holes in the collars of their blues shirts - holes that never quite disappear after they have been promoted!

I think a blank shoulder epaulet would look tacky. However, I don't see a need for SMWOG to wear cutouts either. If they're not wearing rank, they either forgot to put it on, or they don't have any. There's no real reason to even require it in the first place.

Now if you wanted an epaulet with something like an "OC" (for Officer Candidate) or an "OTC" (for Officer Training Corps like the old days), I could get on board with that. IF you're going to wear an epaulet, it should have some kind of significance, not just worn to be worn.

[mikeylikey]

Perhaps SMWOG should wear nothing?  Heck, I was always a believer that if they were brand new to CAP, and in the waiting period, they should wear the "CAP" Cutouts in place of the "US" cutouts on the AF-Style Jacket.  Face it, they have not become an officer yet, reward them when they do.  As far as I am concerned, don't make them buy anything special, there are enough "CAP" cutouts floating around out there. 

Why would they wear a blank slide??  Why give Vanguard more money?? 

What do Cadets at the Service Academies wear their first year before they are recognized?  NOTHING. What do Officer Candidates wear (other than OCS/OTS cutouts)?  NOTHING.  What do Soldiers, Airman, Marines and Coast Guardsman wear at their initial training even though they may enter as an E-2/E-3?  NOTHING.

What should Cap Members without grade wear?  NOTHING!

Follow?

[LtCol White]

RogueLeader:

The silver-gray epaulets on the service coat would be only on the service coat, as would the brushed-metal nameplate. The blue could be worn against light-blue (meaning, shirts) and on sweaters. IT MAKES NO SENSE to put dark-blue epaulets on the service coat, since all it does is make the insignia embroidered. The whole reason the epaulets were put on the service coat in the first place was to CHANGE THE COLOR. With apologies to the colonel from Louisiana and the uniform committee, for someone to say "let's put the dark blue epaulet on the service coat" is to be misinformed on why the epaulets are there in the first place. You might as well just put the metal cutouts and the metal rank insignia back on, as it was before the "berry boards."

As for patches, I wouldn't want new ones. The color guard academy, PJOC, yada yada, doesn't need a patch. Schools in the Air Force don't have patches, so why should we? They're just cartoony, and make us look like Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts without the sash, not like the professional organization we say we are.

You misread me on the Air Force uniform philosophy. When the AF separated from the Army, the philosophy was developed -- and all the clutter disappeared. Did CAP ever authorize hash marks? Don't think so. But at that juncture in my message, I wasn't addressing CAP per se, just saying CAP has ignored the Air Force's "clean uniform" philosophy. So the silly shield-shaped specialty badges, which just junk up everything and are as cartoony as most of our patches, should be replaced with a more professional alternative, inspired by the Air Force's specialty badges, that look more along the lines of our ground-team badge and less like a Walt Disney clip-art proposal.

All due respect, I am QUITE familiar with the reason for the color change. It was for distinction. the cloth blue is just as distinct as the gray from USAF wearing metal.

[LtCol White]

Perhaps SMWOG should wear nothing?  Heck, I was always a believer that if they were brand new to CAP, and in the waiting period, they should wear the "CAP" Cutouts in place of the "US" cutouts on the AF-Style Jacket.  Face it, they have not become an officer yet, reward them when they do.  As far as I am concerned, don't make them buy anything special, there are enough "CAP" cutouts floating around out there. 

Why would they wear a blank slide??  Why give Vanguard more money?? 

What do Cadets at the Service Academies wear their first year before they are recognized?  NOTHING. What do Officer Candidates wear (other than OCS/OTS cutouts)?  NOTHING.  What do Soldiers, Airman, Marines and Coast Guardsman wear at their initial training even though they may enter as an E-2/E-3?  NOTHING.

What should Cap Members without grade wear?  NOTHING!

Follow?

Agreed. Remember, SMWOG is only a temporary thing. Why waste the money and require purchase of an item they won't have very long.  They will be distinct enough wearing blues with the officer braid on the coat and officer flight cap

[ddelaney103]

Perhaps SMWOG should wear nothing?  Heck, I was always a believer that if they were brand new to CAP, and in the waiting period, they should wear the "CAP" Cutouts in place of the "US" cutouts on the AF-Style Jacket.  Face it, they have not become an officer yet, reward them when they do.  As far as I am concerned, don't make them buy anything special, there are enough "CAP" cutouts floating around out there. 

Why would they wear a blank slide??  Why give Vanguard more money?? 

What do Cadets at the Service Academies wear their first year before they are recognized?  NOTHING. What do Officer Candidates wear (other than OCS/OTS cutouts)?  NOTHING.  What do Soldiers, Airman, Marines and Coast Guardsman wear at their initial training even though they may enter as an E-2/E-3?  NOTHING.

What should Cap Members without grade wear?  NOTHING!

Follow?

Agreed. Remember, SMWOG is only a temporary thing. Why waste the money and require purchase of an item they won't have very long.  They will be distinct enough wearing blues with the officer braid on the coat and officer flight cap

That will require a change to 39-1.  Currently, SMWOG are considered Airmen, not Officers (Ref. CAPM 39-1 1-3 a & b).  If you follow the reg - which, admittedly, not many do - SMWOG should not wear either officer service dress coats or flight caps with silver and black check braid.

[LtCol White]

Well since we are doing a rewrite of 39-1, this can be considered.

[Pylon]

Well since we are doing a rewrite of 39-1, this can be considered.

Already duly being recommended to the committee:

Senior Member without Grade & Cadet Airman Basic Confusion
OBSERVATIONS:  Should the change to move to blue nameplates for senior members on the AF-style Service Dress Uniform be approved, this would make the minimum uniform for a Cadet Airman Basic and a Senior Member without grade identical.  Since both grades use the CAP cutout as their insignia, the only current differentiation between the two is the color of the nameplate.

In addition, for Senior Members without grade, CAP cutouts can leave holes in the collar which may remain visible when they become promoted to any other senior member grade.  Since every other SM grade, including NCOs, Flight Officers, and Officers, makes use of the grey shouldermark, it would only make sense that new SM without grade also wear a grey shouldermark.  True to their title of "without grade", the shouldermark would not bear any grade insignia.

RECOMMENDATION:  Senior Members without grade should wear the blank grey shouldermarks already available through Vanguard, in lieu of the metal CAP cutouts.

Senior Members without grade would continue to wear embroidered CAP cutouts on the BDUs – no change.  These cutouts are distinctive from the metal cutouts worn by Cadet Airman Basics on the BDUs.  In addition, since SM officers and flight officers wear embroidered collar insignia, it would make sense – again for consistency – that Senior Members without grade also keep and wear the embroidered blue cutouts on the collar.



Flight Cap & Service Dress Uniform Wear for SM's without grade
OBSERVATIONS:  Current Senior Members without grade are treated, uniform wise, as non-officers.  This means they do not wear sleeve braid on the service dress, they wear solid blue braid edging on their flight cap (enlisted flight cap), and are not eligible to wear the mess dress uniform.

This places an unfair burden on new senior members when purchasing any service dress uniform items.  They are expected to buy an enlisted flight cap, when they will use it for 6 months or less and subsequently will need to buy an officer flight cap.

If a member is dedicated enough to be purchasing blues uniform items, the organization should make it easy for them to purchase items that will last them through their natural wear life.  The current setup places an unneeded financial burden on new senior members.

The Air Force classes all of its "Officer Candidates" in their various accession programs as officers for uniform purposes.  Cadets in AF accession programs (AF Academy, ROTC and Officer Candidate School) wear the officer AF flight cap, even though they are not officers.

RECOMMENDATION:  Treat Senior Members without Grade in the same way that the Air Force treats "Officer Candidates" in their accession programs and class the Senior Member without grade as an "officer" in the definition in Paragraph 1-3, for the purposes of the uniform wear only.  A change to include Senior Members without grade in the uniform definition of officer in Para. 1-3 will automatically allow:

Allow Senior Members without grade to wear the "officer" flight cap with the blue/silver edging.

Allow Senior Members without Grade to wear sleeve braid on the service dress.

Allow Senior Members without Grade to wear the mess dress uniform with dark blue CAP sleeve braid. 

Allow an easy transition for senior members who acquire uniform items early on in their membership and reduce the financial burden on new members.

[mikeylikey]

^ Why should a member purchase a blank grey slide that they will wear for 6 or less months, then have to buy a new one? 

Also, did I miss the removal of the silver nameplate somewhere? 

[ddelaney103]

^ Why should a member purchase a blank grey slide that they will wear for 6 or less months, then have to buy a new one? 

Also, did I miss the removal of the silver nameplate somewhere? 

I could see the unit having a supply and loaning them for the first few months.

[Hawk200]

Something brought up in another thread:

AFI 36-2903, concerning belts with BDU: "Black tip of belt may extend up to 2 inches beyond the buckle facing the wearer's left; blue woven cotton web or elastic with black metal tip and matching buckle.  Black web or black riggers belt with nondescript black buckle authorized as an optional item with BDU."

One, mirror the wear criteria. Two, allow the same belts with the BDU (and I imagine the ABU). Allows shopping at the same store as the Air Force. No real reason why we can't do it. Everyone needs a belt anyway.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Col. White, thanks for the response. I disagree that sliding on a blue epaulet is different from wearing the metal -- it's not nearly as recognizable from a distance because the background is what makes the difference -- so I'm totally in the gray camp on that singular use. CAP officers need to be clearly delineated, so as not to be confused with real officers.

I have no preference on the gray for shirts and other blue uniform items, but if the blue returns for those unis, so be it.

I always thought it was out of place to slide the shirt epaulets on the service coat, and that it was a Band-Aid solution, so using epaulets that blend in with the coat is pointless -- I'll bet you a cup of coffee the Air Force agrees on that premise. (Of course, you have to come to beautiful Tampa Bay to collect if I'm wrong....)

My personal preference would be a service-coat gray epaulet with "CAP" embroidered up top and room for the metal to be pinned on. The epaulet stripes for field-grade and general grade should only be seen on shirts and sweaters, where they belong. And for EMs, let me stand corrected from an earlier statement, since AF EMs don't have epaulets on their service coats -- they can wear the CAP cutouts on lapels.

On shirts and other blues uniform items, EMs can wear the gray nametag and the USAF sleeve rank insignia and be quite OK.

All that said, and after all the discussion, I'm glad some sane minds are coming to the table to seek a once-and-for-all, workable and lasting uniform system. It's about time!

[RiverAux]

Personally, the gray epalets have never bothered me.  I don't think they look all that bad.  Frankly, it would be a lot easier for me to just slip on epalets rather than trying to properly position metal rank every time I wear the service coat. 

[ZigZag911]

The Air Force's uniform philosophy is to keep it clean and modern -- no patches on the sleeves, no hash marks for longevity, no needless clutter or redundancy -- and CAP just keeps blowing that out of the water.

Which is why they continually get mistaken for the Postal Service, or, worse, Greyhound drivers!

However, they are our parent service, so we should follow their lead (even though I find it deadly dull, always have!)

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Frankly, it would be a lot easier for me to just slip on epalets rather than trying to properly position metal rank every time I wear the service coat. 

Maybe so, but it's what CAP officers did until the color was mandated. Besides, it's what the Air Force does, it's what we do with all our other insignia, and it's just two more pieces of flair. The only difference I'd propose is that we put the metal on plain gray slides that denote us as CAPers -- not too much different from the green tabs they wear in the Army for combat commanders, just that they'll go full-length instead.

Or maybe do gray loops the same size as the Army combat-commander loops, with a "CAP" on them, just for the service coat?

[LtCol White]

OK guys, lets get back on topic here. We're starting to drift again