NHQ Uniform Committee

[Stonewall]

Next, follow the same guidance on ribbons, versus medals for the mess dress, this will stop every Lt Col in CAP looking like a field marshall. 

You know, I don't think CAP is too far off from the AF on the ribbon thing.  I'm not saying CAP has it right, but the AF ain't to far in front of us on this one.

I've been in the military for 13 years and have 16 ribbons.  I've been in CAP for 20 years and have 16 ribbons.  My wife has been in the Air Guard for 4 years, has 6 ribbons.  In CAP for 4 years and has 6 ribbons.

Navy and Marine Corps, you'll see guys with 3 combat tours but  only 6 or 7 ribbons.  You'll see an AF guy/gal with the same rank, a few deployments without any direct contact with the enemy and they'll have 15 ribbons.  Yes, there is a guy in my ANG unit in LIFE SUPPORT who deployed for 120 days.  He has 15 ribbons.

If we knock out a few ribbons, perhaps we can teach the AF a little something about that too.

[Hawk200]

Next, follow the same guidance on ribbons, versus medals for the mess dress, this will stop every Lt Col in CAP looking like a field marshall. 

You know, I don't think CAP is too far off from the AF on the ribbon thing.  I'm not saying CAP has it right, but the AF ain't to far in front of us on this one.

I've been in the military for 13 years and have 16 ribbons.  I've been in CAP for 20 years and have 16 ribbons.  My wife has been in the Air Guard for 4 years, has 6 ribbons.  In CAP for 4 years and has 6 ribbons.

Navy and Marine Corps, you'll see guys with 3 combat tours but  only 6 or 7 ribbons.  You'll see an AF guy/gal with the same rank, a few deployments without any direct contact with the enemy and they'll have 15 ribbons.  Yes, there is a guy in my ANG unit in LIFE SUPPORT who deployed for 120 days.  He has 15 ribbons.

If we knock out a few ribbons, perhaps we can teach the AF a little something about that too.

I wouldn't mind seeing some reductions either. Got 15 on the military side, 9 on the CAP side. Another member saw my rack and considered it "ostentatious".

Allowing some miniature ribbons would be nice. There are places starting to make the military ribbons in miniatures. Would reduce the amount of real estate needed on my shirt a good bit. I've started wearing just military ribbons on my CAP blues for that reason.

[O-Rex]

Next, follow the same guidance on ribbons, versus medals for the mess dress, this will stop every Lt Col in CAP looking like a field marshall. 

You know, I don't think CAP is too far off from the AF on the ribbon thing.  I'm not saying CAP has it right, but the AF ain't to far in front of us on this one.

I've been in the military for 13 years and have 16 ribbons.  I've been in CAP for 20 years and have 16 ribbons.  My wife has been in the Air Guard for 4 years, has 6 ribbons.  In CAP for 4 years and has 6 ribbons.

Navy and Marine Corps, you'll see guys with 3 combat tours but  only 6 or 7 ribbons.  You'll see an AF guy/gal with the same rank, a few deployments without any direct contact with the enemy and they'll have 15 ribbons.  Yes, there is a guy in my ANG unit in LIFE SUPPORT who deployed for 120 days.  He has 15 ribbons.

If we knock out a few ribbons, perhaps we can teach the AF a little something about that too.

I wouldn't mind seeing some reductions either. Got 15 on the military side, 9 on the CAP side. Another member saw my rack and considered it "ostentatious".

Allowing some miniature ribbons would be nice. There are places starting to make the military ribbons in miniatures. Would reduce the amount of real estate needed on my shirt a good bit. I've started wearing just military ribbons on my CAP blues for that reason.

Even if you do have more ribbons than a bananna republic general, it's all in how you wear them: they CAN be overlapped, significantly reducing the coverage.  I've seen folks with a rack that literally goes to the bottom hem: looks tacky.

Perhaps there should be verbage that "medals shall not fall below x point on the Mess Dress jacket."

[Hawk200]

Even if you do have more ribbons than a bananna republic general, it's all in how you wear them: they CAN be overlapped, significantly reducing the coverage.  I've seen folks with a rack that literally goes to the bottom hem: looks tacky.

Perhaps there should be verbage that "medals shall not fall below x point on the Mess Dress jacket."

Uh, I'm talking about ribbons, not medals. You can't overlap ribbons. Medals, yes. Ribbons, no.

And yes, I was referring to miniature ribbons, not medals. The Air Force permits them, and even defines them in 36-2903. They're half the width as regular ones, and the ribbon material is the same width as the ribbon drape on mini medals. Two miniature ribbons would fit in the same position as a single standard ribbon. For example, a ribbon holder that holds three standard ribbons would hold six miniature ribbons.

Clear as mud?

[NAYBOR]

My 2 cents for the (thus far) uniform thread:

I personally like the way things are presently with the Corporate Service Uniform (CSU), with some ideas for small changes and additions.  I've already submitted to LtCol White my proposal (with photos) ideas for mess dress shoulder boards and mess dress for the CSU; a new service cap device (in line with the AF Service Cap device, distinguished for CAP); CAP cutout/US cutout placement ( or removal altogether), and various other things.  In reading the many pages since then, these are my suggestions for proposals.  I'm obviously taking the idea, "shoot for the moon, if you miss, at least you'll land among the stars"...

--For the ABU, why not go all the way and ask for the digital tapes with ultramarine blue writing to designate CAP?  For the Rank, instead of brown and midnight blue, why not use gold and ultramarine blue on digital backgrounds?  If that is shot down, then ask for white thread on digital background for nametapes, with bright rank (same as would be used on the OD cloth) on digital background?  For the BBDU, have navy blue tapes with ultramarine blue writing, and bright rank (like the ABU would use, suggested above) on dark blue background.  If ultramarine blue writing is not an option, use white.  For those who say, "but we should have all the same"--you're gonna pay to update the ABU or BBDU either way, might as well ask for what you want.  None of this is MANDATORY anyways (if you don't want to pay for it, you don't HAVE to!)

--To keep metal rank on the corporate coat (and get rank back on the AF uniform), I too am willing to have CAP cutouts on everything (or the CAP/US arrangement described in my proposal).  While this next idea was not in my original proposal to LtCol White--What about "CAP" on the right lapel (wearer's right), and "US" on the left lapel (again, wearer's left) on all service coats (CSU and AF)?  This should be distinctinve enough, satisfy those who'd like to see the "US" stay on the uniforms (of which I am one), and will hopefully be distinctive enough for the AF.  It will also designate our duality of being both a CAP corporation, and the USAF Aux in service to our country.  I don't want to see metal rank leave the CSU, and would like to see metal rank return to the AF Service coat for CAP like "the old days".  I think it would be especially appropriate to have metal rank with CAP cutouts on the Heritage Coat.  I really don't like the idea of putting the blue slides on either the CSU coat or AF Coat epaulettes.  Blue epaulettes for both the AF and CSU shirts--great!

--if the AF doesn't like all of the suggestions about returning metal rank to the AF coat (and keeping metal rank on the CSU),  why not have as a final suggestion to remove cutouts on ALL service coats to distinguish CAP altogether to get metal rank?  If all requests for metal rank are shot down, but we get the blue epaulettes, we could still do this (remove any/all cutouts).  Since CAP will be embroidered on the sleeves anyways, there will not be any need for any cutouts on either the CSU or AF coat lapels (to include the "US" cutouts).

--if the AF is keeping the brushed silver nametag for the AF service coats, we should too, for both the CSU or AF Service Coat.  For ALL name tags (silver, blue, gray, whatever), put the last name in big letters on the 1st line, and then whatever in smaller letters afterwords.

--yes, I admit, I like the idea of the blue commissioning braid on the CSU too, to be in line with the AF Service Coat.  Now that I have a CSU though--while I didn't think I'd like the silver braid, I actually do--I think it is distinctive for the CAP CSU, and sets it apart.  It also goes nicely with my CSU mess dress boards I designed and mess dress suggestions for the CSU.  Plus, I'd have to have the silver braid replaced, and I just had it done!  I can live with changing it to blue braid, though, if that is what is decided.  My mess dress board idea for the CSU will just have to be adapted to reflect the new sleave braid--not too hard to do at all (just change from silver to blue--the silver was more distinctive, though).  All other mess dress proposals should not have to change. 

--khaki--good stuff!

--grays and whites--yes, get rid of them!

If I think of anything else, I'll post it.

[Dragoon]

I really, really like the idea of starting from a "why do we wear uniforms" point of view, and then designing the uniform changes accordingly.

For example,  think about prioritizing these three possible reasons (and there are more)

1.  To foster a USAF military culture in CAP.

2.  To foster a sense of unity amongst the members, and the perception of unity and organization to the public.

3.  To promote pride in the member's accomplishments.

If #1 the most important, the golf shirt needs to die.  All uniforms need to show grade.  Headgear probably shouldn't be optional, nor should outerwear. All corporate uniforms need to look as close to their USAF equivalents in style and color as we can get away with.

2.  If #2 is the most important, then it doesn't matter what we pick to wear, as long as everyone looks similar.  We need fewer optional items.  Outerwear matters a whole bunch (we're outside a lot, ya know).l

3. #3 is most important, then we really don't need changes at all.  Folks wear whatever raises their morale.


There are many way to go.  But what we NEED is a the answer to the basic question "What do we want our uniforms to accomplish?"   And then use the answer as a yardstick for each new proposal.

[cnitas]

I really, really like the idea of starting from a "why do we wear uniforms" point of view, and then designing the uniform changes accordingly.

For example,  think about prioritizing these three possible reasons (and there are more)

1.  To foster a USAF military culture in CAP.

2.  To foster a sense of unity amongst the members, and the perception of unity and organization to the public.

3.  To promote pride in the member's accomplishments.

If #1 the most important, the golf shirt needs to die.  All uniforms need to show grade.  Headgear probably shouldn't be optional, nor should outerwear. All corporate uniforms need to look as close to their USAF equivalents in style and color as we can get away with.

2.  If #2 is the most important, then it doesn't matter what we pick to wear, as long as everyone looks similar.  We need fewer optional items.  Outerwear matters a whole bunch (we're outside a lot, ya know).l

3. #3 is most important, then we really don't need changes at all.  Folks wear whatever raises their morale.


There are many way to go.  But what we NEED is a the answer to the basic question "What do we want our uniforms to accomplish?"   And then use the answer as a yardstick for each new proposal.

:clap:
I would have to agree with this 100%

[JohnKachenmeister]

LtCol White:

Do you expect your recommendations to be ready in time for the (I think) March meeting of the NB, since that is supposed to be the meeting at which uniform changes are to be discussed?

I know you have a very daunting task, but it seems to me that you have already made significant progress in that you have identified the issues and the general recommendations.

[LtCol White]

LtCol White:

Do you expect your recommendations to be ready in time for the (I think) March meeting of the NB, since that is supposed to be the meeting at which uniform changes are to be discussed?

I know you have a very daunting task, but it seems to me that you have already made significant progress in that you have identified the issues and the general recommendations.

Yes, it is our plan to have them presented at the Winter Board Meeting. The larger revision of 39-1 and review of usaf items will take a lot longer so that will be for the next one.

[jeders]

I don't think this question has been asked yet, are we going to retain the woodland field coats when we switch to the ABU?

[RiverAux]

I would assume we would switch.  Can't think of any logical reason not too. 

[ddelaney103]

I don't think this question has been asked yet, are we going to retain the woodland field coats when we switch to the ABU?

In the AF, you can't mix woodland and AFPAT.

You can wear the blue all-weather coat, though.

[LtCol White]

I don't think this question has been asked yet, are we going to retain the woodland field coats when we switch to the ABU?

We would go to whatever USAF wears with the appropropriate CAP insignia

[jeders]

I don't think this question has been asked yet, are we going to retain the woodland field coats when we switch to the ABU?

We would go to whatever USAF wears with the appropropriate CAP insignia

Ok

[mikeylikey]

Suggestion.....

1) Add the black or tan riggers belt currently worn by the AF to the CAP BDU's.
2) Add pin-on Cadet Officer Insignia to the BDU shirt

Thanks!

[mdickinson]

If I could make two changes to the uniform manual, they would be:

1. Have all senior members wear gray epaulette sleeves (the ones we wear with our AF-style blue uniform). These would work just fine on the white-and-blue uniform and on the TPU.

2. Have Sr Mbr's without grade wear the gray epaulette sleeve without grade insignia.

These simple changes would make all our shoulders look the same ("uniform," you might even say) - not the silly mixed bag that one sees now. And #2 would keep new Sr Mbrs from having to poke holes in the collars of their blues shirts - holes that never quite disappear after they have been promoted!

[O-Rex]

I don't think this question has been asked yet, are we going to retain the woodland field coats when we switch to the ABU?

We would go to whatever USAF wears with the appropropriate CAP insignia

That could be a tough one for Cadets: the USAF APEC (Gore-tex) Parka goes for $175.  Outfitting for Winter encampments could be an expensive proposition.

I foresee some exceptions in this regard, but I foresee Seniors biting the bullet and shelling out the Buck$. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

My feelings, after watching nearly a quarter-century of CAP uniform diddling:

-- Leave the service coat epaulets gray. Seriously. But only sell two variants, one of which is blank, and forces officers to use metal grade insignia. The second version could be sold for enlisted members, one that has the "CAP" centered and allows the "U.S." insignia on the lapels (and the regular Air Force stripes, which the Air Force now only allows on sleeves -- epaulet rank for enlisteds is dead). This solution could also apply, with the exception of the lapel insignia, to the fat-guy TPU.

Why the gray? Because the blue epaulet on the service coat is pointless, and doesn't differentiate CAP enough from those who get paid to fight -- which was the whole idea of the maroon, then gray, epaulets to begin with. (Anyone remember the Harwell circlet?) Might as well just buy a new set of CAP cutouts and metal rank insignia, because the only thing you gain is a stripe across the bottom if you're field-grade. It just comes across as a mistake, an "oops, I forgot my rank, so I borrowed someone's epaulets."

-- The return of the blue epaulets to the blue shirts, as well as the blue nametag, would be welcomed. I'm not holding my breath, though. It doesn't bother me to wear the gray, though it definitely introduced a third color to the uniform.

-- On the ABU, I like the idea of the navy-blue cloth, versus the sage, which will be too close to the Air Force's color (and therefore nixed), and the ultramarine, which just screams "we're not worthy."

NOW, FOR SOME OTHER THOUGHTS....

I read much of this thread and groaned. So many of the ideas thrown out have no basis in reality. I'm honestly glad you guys don't sit on a uniform board, or are the national commander ruling by fiat, because you'd have come up with a uniform either like the TPU or worse. Sorry, but for crying out loud....

My personal beefs with the uniform is that every schmo who comes along has to design a tacky new patch or some godawful specialty insignia. The pocket shields were a bad idea made worse when everyone screamed for one for their specialty. NIX THEM, and in their place, allow a newly designed specialty insignia, inspired by the ones the Air Force wears.

-- Adopt the Air Force's heraldry standards, from unit emblems to who gets a flag versus a guidon. This means wings get shields, squadrons get discs and wing flags carry the shield instead of the CAP shield (just like the real Air Force). Wing patches are getting uglier all the time, so we ought to insist on going back to the heritage insignias, but instead in a shield. (For instance, Florida would go back to the gator.)

-- The command badge is fine, as-is, worn in the same place Air Force commanders wear them, ABOVE the name tag. A separate one for group commanders is irrelevant, as the insignia marks a person as a commander, period.

-- The new command patch on flight-duty uniforms is just fine. Remember, during World War II, the "U.S." on the patch was in the exact same place as it is on the new command patch. As much as I appreciated the scroll reading "U.S. Air Force Auxiliary," the name of the organization is Civil Air Patrol. (However, the vehicle decals that echo the new patch are a terrible public-awareness idea, as they don't explain the organization as well as the seal did.)

-- I'm totally in favor of cloth rank insignia on the flight suit, for safety reasons as well as professional ones. I wear the full-color CAP cloth because it doesn't get caught on anything. I have a cloth nametag for my flight suit, which I also wear because it doesn't come apart and it's flexible -- it's ultramarine with white wings, border and name. (I DO have the regulation tag, don't worry.)

-- Ditch all the goofy patches on the BDU, and do it yesterday. The emergency-services patch is a cartoonish joke that replaced a silly patch that replaced the original cartoonish joke. The communications patch doesn't look a whole lot like the badge for the blues, in terms of the arc above and the size, so change it to an embroidered insignia like the wings. Does every activity need a patch? Probably not.

-- Bring the color/honor guard uniform stipulations in line with the Air Force's, save the special service coat. A white shirt instead of the blue is sharper, and it's exactly what the Air Force does -- what's with the bib scarf and another goofy patch with an overly cliched, clip-art design? Heck, put the command patch there instead.

-- I'd be all in favor of a phase-out date for the TPU, except that thanks to its introduction and subsequent rash of changes, we're stuck with it. I truly believe the TPU was the answer to a question no one asked, nor was ever going to ask, save for a national commander who wanted to design his own uniform. That said, let's ditch the grays.

The Air Force's uniform philosophy is to keep it clean and modern -- no patches on the sleeves, no hash marks for longevity, no needless clutter or redundancy -- and CAP just keeps blowing that out of the water. As a visual journalist (that's my real job), I'm trained to eschew clutter and keep things simple and to the point... I wish CAP's uniform legacy was treated the same. Among the ridiculous ideas in this thread are some good ones, and I hope everyone on this board will look at every idea with a sense of practicality, some idea of CAP's uniform history and a critical eye.

Since I've said some things I'm sure will rile feathers, I might as well let you know who I am... and thanks for reading. Please take this post as constructive criticism and not as a diss, from someone who's tired of seeing the organization fuss with the uniform more than a teenage girl on prom night.

DOUGLAS E. JESSMER, Major, CAP
Commander, Clearwater Cadet Sq, Florida Wing
Public Affairs Officer, Florida Wing Group 8
Former cadet lieutenant colonel, West Virginia Wing

Quote sniped - MIKE

[RogueLeader]

-- Leave the service coat epaulets gray. Seriously. But only sell two variants, one of which is blank, and forces officers to use metal grade insignia. The second version could be sold for enlisted members, one that has the "CAP" centered and allows the "U.S." insignia on the lapels (and the regular Air Force stripes, which the Air Force now only allows on sleeves -- epaulet rank for enlisteds is dead). This solution could also apply, with the exception of the lapel insignia, to the fat-guy TPU.

-- The return of the blue epaulets to the blue shirts, as well as the blue nametag, would be welcomed. I'm not holding my breath, though. It doesn't bother me to wear the gray, though it definitely introduced a third color to the uniform.

Um not to sound rude or anything, but WHY in all that is good, would I want two different color epaulets.  As it happens, I have the Silver nametag, which looks much better than any plastic one.

My personal beefs with the uniform is that every schmo who comes along has to design a tacky new patch or some godawful specialty insignia. The pocket shields were a bad idea made worse when everyone screamed for one for their specialty. NIX THEM, and in their place, allow a newly designed specialty insignia, inspired by the ones the Air Force wears.

So you want to come up with new ones- for us- and kill all that we have?  I'm not saying that I like all, or need all; but that is a SERIOUS waste of money.

The Air Force's uniform philosophy is to keep it clean and modern -- no patches on the sleeves, no hash marks for longevity, no needless clutter or redundancy -- and CAP just keeps blowing that out of the water.

Um since when did we have has marks for length of service?  Patches are all gone from Blues and Wing option for BDU's.

[SAR-EMT1]

I was looking at the ribbon rack page and was struck by something:
All our CAP 'Officers' are wearing enlisted Aircrew Wings.

In the Air Force the Officers wear a Shield in the center of the wings with enlisted crewmembers having a circle. Any way we can have the triangle and prop inside a shield?

- I know seems minor, but when it hit me it really hit me.

I would be in favor of redesigned specialty track insignia... even if it was just decolored.  -- Get away from the technicolor badges we have now.