NHQ Uniform Committee

[ddelaney103]

I think the golf shirt sub-discussion highlights the central disconnect of this discussion on uniforms - what are they for?

If we had some overarching goal that uniforms were trying to meet, it might be easier to decide if having golf shirts helped or hindered meeting that goal.  Unfortunately, we have many ideas on why we have uniforms but none are universally held and many of them are contradictory.

Here are just a few:

- uniforms make us closer to the AF
- uniforms ID us as CAP
- uniforms are safety gear
- uniforms will make us "more military"
- uniforms allow members to display their training and achievements
- uniforms give us an aura of professionalism and credibility with the public
- uniforms do not show who is in charge
- uniforms do not make us military
- uniforms are a training tool for Cadets

There are probably more that I missed, but I believe I made the point.  Again, we come down to the question of what is the mission and how can uniforms aid us in meeting the mission.

[Trung Si Ma]

...we come down to the question of what is the mission and how can uniforms aid us in meeting the mission.

This is the real question that has to be asked.

[LtCol White]

...we come down to the question of what is the mission and how can uniforms aid us in meeting the mission.

This is the real question that has to be asked.

They do promote unity, teamwork, and esprit de corps

[ddelaney103]

...we come down to the question of what is the mission and how can uniforms aid us in meeting the mission.

This is the real question that has to be asked.

They do promote unity, teamwork, and esprit de corps

No, they _can_ promote those things if applied correctly.  Considering the friction b/w the fit, the fat and the fuzzy, it isn't automatic.  The tug of war b/w "we have to look like the Junior Air Force" and "no chubby left behind" seems to cause a lot of hard feelings.

Whatever path we take, including doing nothing, may lead to people leaving the org.  Understanding the mission would give us a better idea of what members of CAP to we need to accommodate to meet mission goals.

[LtCol White]

...we come down to the question of what is the mission and how can uniforms aid us in meeting the mission.

This is the real question that has to be asked.

They do promote unity, teamwork, and esprit de corps

No, they _can_ promote those things if applied correctly.  Considering the friction b/w the fit, the fat and the fuzzy, it isn't automatic.  The tug of war b/w "we have to look like the Junior Air Force" and "no chubby left behind" seems to cause a lot of hard feelings.

Whatever path we take, including doing nothing, may lead to people leaving the org.  Understanding the mission would give us a better idea of what members of CAP to we need to accommodate to meet mission goals.

I meant uniforms in a general sense

[ddelaney103]

...we come down to the question of what is the mission and how can uniforms aid us in meeting the mission.

This is the real question that has to be asked.

They do promote unity, teamwork, and esprit de corps

No, they _can_ promote those things if applied correctly.  Considering the friction b/w the fit, the fat and the fuzzy, it isn't automatic.  The tug of war b/w "we have to look like the Junior Air Force" and "no chubby left behind" seems to cause a lot of hard feelings.

Whatever path we take, including doing nothing, may lead to people leaving the org.  Understanding the mission would give us a better idea of what members of CAP to we need to accommodate to meet mission goals.

I meant uniforms in a general sense

Understood, but in theory the Committee is trying to get to brass tacks (or collar brass, in this case).

In the military, except for "non-uniform uniforms" like recruiters and AFOSI, there is little need for a golf shirt suit.  In the PD/FD/EMS world, golf shirts seems to be quite acceptable.  A better idea of the image we want the uniform to give would drive the decision.

Other questions concerning outerwear, headgear, epaulet sliders would be easier if we could compare them to the goal for the uniform.

[LtCol White]

The goal was stated earlier. To clean up the closet, align the corporate service uniform and cap-usaf service uniforms closer with common insignia, fill gaps where needed (winter field wear), eliminate unnecessary items, and clean up 39-1 and keeping cost to the member in mind as much as feasible.

[cnitas]

I think people are not writing about the goal of the committee, but a mission statement of sorts for the uniform as a whole.

Perhaps a paragraph or statement at the beginning of 39-1 similar to the following:
Civil Air Patrol wears uniforms in order to....(fill in the reason here).

That mission statement should be able to guide us to appropriate uniforms, and the reasons why we wear them.

Afterall, why not have only 3 uniforms combos for all members?  It would save money, and be really easy to write up for 39-1.

1. Golf Shirt combo - Officers and cadets for general wear
2.  Blue Flight suit - For ES flying activity
3.  BBDU - For GSAR

[MIKE]

Afterall, why not have only 3 uniforms combos for all members?  It would save money, and be really easy to write up for 39-1.

1. Golf Shirt combo - Officers and cadets for general wear
2.  Blue Flight suit - For ES flying activity
3.  BBDU - For GSAR

I can't support turning CAP into a glorified Volunteer Fire Department.  No offense to Volunteer Fire Departments.

[LtCol White]

I think people are not writing about the goal of the committee, but a mission statement of sorts for the uniform as a whole.

Perhaps a paragraph or statement at the beginning of 39-1 similar to the following:
Civil Air Patrol wears uniforms in order to....(fill in the reason here).

That mission statement should be able to guide us to appropriate uniforms, and the reasons why we wear them.

Afterall, why not have only 3 uniforms combos for all members?  It would save money, and be really easy to write up for 39-1.

1. Golf Shirt combo - Officers and cadets for general wear
2.  Blue Flight suit - For ES flying activity
3.  BBDU - For GSAR

Good idea on the statement for 39-1. Please post this same info on the thread Pylon has for the 39-1 issues.

Disagree on the golf shirt. It has its uses and should be confined to those but not used for general wear. I agree with Mike.

[cnitas]

Afterall, why not have only 3 uniforms combos for all members?  It would save money, and be really easy to write up for 39-1.

1. Golf Shirt combo - Officers and cadets for general wear
2.  Blue Flight suit - For ES flying activity
3.  BBDU - For GSAR

I can't support turning CAP into a glorified Volunteer Fire Department.  No offense to Volunteer Fire Departments.

I was being a little tounge-in-cheek.  My point is that without a universal 'goal' or 'mission' we are trying to meet with uniforms, what direction we go is up for debate.  I picked an extreme to illustrate my point. 

On the other hand, we can adopt USAF uniforms only.  Fat and fuzzy? Too bad. 
Or perhaps TPU variations only, no AF style.
Why should we choose 1 over the others?

The mission statement should answer this question. 

[BillB]

Maj Piersall's idea will cost the cadets about $200. and means no more free USAF uniforms for cadets. Great idea we don't need cadets in CAP's flying club anyway.

[LtCol White]

There is no plan to scrap the CAP USAF uniforms. We are aligning the insignia on the corp service uniforms with those of the CAP USAF service uniform. An outline of the planned changes can be seen on page 19 of this thread. We plan to propose that there will be one for one matches of CAP USAF items and Corp Service Items.

[Grumpy]

Maj Piersall's idea will cost the cadets about $200. and means no more free USAF uniforms for cadets. Great idea we don't need cadets in CAP's flying club anyway.

Of course you are exaggerating about not needing cadets anyway.  They have been a part of CAP almost since the first day.  I'm not going to say anymore on that because it'll just get my dander up.

Thing about the uniforms is that they are a part of our heritage, after all, and I gotta admit it does give me a feeling of still being connected to my old fraternity.

As for the Golf shirt, I wear it to most meetings and then I don't have to change clothes when I go to "debriefing", (Denny's), after our weekly meeting.  Remember the rule about not wearing the uniform one hour after a meeting?

[RiverAux]

The golf shirt is a uniform.  Same rule applies.

[LtCol White]

The golf shirt is a uniform.  Same rule applies.

Yup. If it wasn't you couldn't fly in it.

[Redstar]

OK, I've read all the post and this is what I think.  We should try to align the corp. uniforms with their USAF counterparts as much as possible.  Lose the white and grays, go with the white and blues.  I've got a golf shirt in my closet but I think it looks like something out of the 70's.  If we keep the Golf shirt, lets update it to something along the lines of the 5.11 polo and have only one style.  Not logo on right, logo on left, no name, just name, name and badge, etc.  Just pick (one) and thats it!  As for the pants, it doesn't matter if they are gray or khaki, there will always be different shades and styles.  (Went to target for some Christmas shopping and happened to notice all the khaki pants and red shirts.)  Lets mandate one specific type of pants in one color and stick with it wheather its khaki 5.11's, dark gray bdu, tdu or dockers.  as for the utility uniforms, I don't see the problem with different color nametapes and grade for the different utility uniforms.  Green on green and navy (not ultramarine) on navy.  I think bright colored insignia on a camo uniform looks silly.  I meet weight and grooming requirements but I chose BBDU's over BDU's because of that reason.  (I don't miss wearing my cool white on ultramarine blue jump wings that much.)  As for the ABU's, stick with name, branch, grade and qualification badges only (no patches) in a matching color.  AND, whats the difference between a vol. fire department and a vol. air force.

[Former_C/LTC]

Good Luck...!!

Seriously though, stop the madness, follow the guidance from AFI 36-2903 on the wear of occupational badges and that's it.  Stop wearing five, six, seven different badges on service dress and BDU...we look [darn] stupid, especially to the US Air Force. 

Next, follow the same guidance on ribbons, versus medals for the mess dress, this will stop every Lt Col in CAP looking like a field marshall. 

Now, only award a ribbon for cadets on the milestone, really make it worth something, and get away from issuing a ribbon for attending meetings for god's sake.

That's a good start.

  Richard J Levitt, MSGT, USAFR

  and Lt Col, CAP

[JohnKachenmeister]

LtCol White:

I do not know if this is in your mandate, but will you be addresing the planned introduction of the Hap Arnold Heritage uniform as part of your 39-1 revision?

[LtCol White]

LtCol White:

I do not know if this is in your mandate, but will you be addresing the planned introduction of the Hap Arnold Heritage uniform as part of your 39-1 revision?

Yes, we are trying to get that done now so that when it comes along all that is needed is the phase in date. We plan to ask that what is approved for the current service dress be transferred to the new coat. This would help save another request to USAF down the road.