NHQ Uniform Committee

[Dragoon]

I'm one of them.  20+ years in the Army, and still going.  I wear BBDUs and utility uniforms almost exclusively for all kinds of reasons.

The golf shirt is the odd duck because it's so different.  Which kind of gets in the way of the concept of the "uniform."  It's not uniform unless everyone wears it. Or at the very least, it ought to blend well with the other uniforms word for the same purpose at the same activity.

I'm into uniformity.  I think it helps an organization in so many ways.  I really don't care WHAT the uniform is - but it should be standard.  We could easily put all CAP members in golf shirts and be done with it.  In some ways, I think that would actually improve things.

But given our USAF connection, it's probably best to stick to USAF suits and corporate equivalents that blend in well.  There is no USAF counterpart to the golf shirt.  Not in their uniform manual.  Sure, some recruiters wear some variation, and I've seen various unofficial "squadron shirts" - but if you go to a USAF base,  you won't see airmen in golf shirts working next to the airmen in BDUs.

We only need corporate suits because of the weight and grooming rules.  So....we only need corporate suits that to complement the USAF suits on a one for one basis. 

But you're right that some folks would be gone if we killed the golf shirt.  Probably fewer than those that threaten to leave - just like the folks who claimed they'd quite over the maroon epaulets but hung around anyway.

I wouldn't be worried about competing with the Young Eagles - you have have a plane to fly.  Not a large percentage of our members are in that situation.  As long as we've got planes, they'll line up to fly 'em.

[0]

The one good thing about keeping the golf shirt combination is for mission base staff on an ES Mission in the summer time and for the Aircrews in the summer.  They are much more comfortable and easier to work in than a flight suit is during the summer.  Wearing nomex in an airplane in July and August not always the most comfortable.  And that's for someone who lives in New England I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for everyone in more temperate climates.  As far as mission base staff goes, the golf shirt combination in a way looks more working business like.  Which is good if you have to bring other people through mission base.  It's also good for a mission base staff that is part of a joint command staff on a mission.  Most of the orginization we work with usually dress in something similiar to that. 

[LtCol White]

I notice the great disdain that members of this board seem to hold for the corporate uniforms in general and the golf shirt in particular.  It seems that if you decide to wear a corporate uniform, it is a consensus opinion that you are "fat or fuzzy" and if you wear a golf shirt you are, somehow, "unprofessional" or a "keystone cop".  Funny, 39-1, para 4-1 doesn't say you have to be fat or fuzzy to wear a corporate uniform.

It seems to me that there are about 20 – 30 golf shirt hating regulars on this board that are quite vocal in their denouncement of this uniform.  That's what – less than .01% of all of CAP-dom?  Every time I go to a CAP event as I travel around the country it seems that there are more people than that IN the golf shirt.

I spent 20+ years in the Army and have been in CAP since 1969 and I am not going to wear a military style uniform.  That doesn't seem to hinder my ability to interact with cadets nor their desire to attend the classes that I teach or to come to me for counseling and advice.  It also doesn't seem to bother my wing commander, nor prevent him from tasking me to do investigations or help other units.

I'm also not going to spend the money chasing every new uniform pronouncement that comes from higher headquarters.  Particularly when it will change again shortly – and probably back to the way it was originally within two or three cycles.  The only thing that has changed or will change on my golf shirt uniform is if I decide to change from basic pilot wings to senior pilot wings at some point.

I've talked to members who say that they'll quit CAP if you take away their uniform or the military style grade and title that they've "earned".  Seen some of them post on this very board and they are welcome to their opinion.  Their opinionisn't changing mine.

Wonder how many of us will be lost if you try and force us into a uniform?  This pilot would start flying young eagles instead of CAP cadets.

I can assure you that the uniform committee has no disdain for the corp combos. We have a desire to upgrade the look to increase the professional appearance of them and align the service uniforms better so they resemble the same organization. Personally, I dont care what which combo a member chooses to wear as long as it presents a professional image and is appropriate to the activity/duty.

[0]

Col. White I'm not sure if this has been sugested yet.  But if I read your meaning corectly to make our service uniforms more in line with the AF for the blues I have an idea that could work.  No more grey slides metal grade.  On the epulets of the service dress we also pin on the CAP metal cutouts just like is done on the Corprate unforms windbreaker.  And for the blues shirts we wear the AF officer slides with CAP cutouts pined on to them. 

[Dragoon]

The one good thing about keeping the golf shirt combination is for mission base staff on an ES Mission in the summer time and for the Aircrews in the summer.  They are much more comfortable and easier to work in than a flight suit is during the summer.  Wearing nomex in an airplane in July and August not always the most comfortable.  And that's for someone who lives in New England I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for everyone in more temperate climates.  As far as mission base staff goes, the golf shirt combination in a way looks more working business like.  Which is good if you have to bring other people through mission base.  It's also good for a mission base staff that is part of a joint command staff on a mission.  Most of the orginization we work with usually dress in something similiar to that. 

Your first point (heat) is a good one.  But it's always a matter of degree - if a golf shirt and slacks is OK, why not a golf shirt and shorts?  That's even cooler.....and flip flops are even cooler than shoes.....

The comment about the golf shirt looking good in certain situations sounds reasonable.  No doubt, a mission staff all dressed in golf shirts would look very professional.  But we all know that's not what happens.  After all, what good does your golf shirt do CAP when the guy next to you is in BDUs, and the next guy is wearing a blue flight suit?  The value of a uniform for PR depends on what everyone is wearing - not just any single member.

If someone wanted to MANDATE the golf shirt for wear in certain situations, that would be different.  Since that would go over like a lead ballon, perhaps going with BDUs/BBDUS is better.  You can always take the shirt off when it's really hot, and then at least everyone is in the same style of uniform - just two different colors.  Fewer uniform choices = more uniformity.

[Smokey]

We do have a problem with professionalism when it comes to our appearance in uniform.

At a few SAREXs, missions and activities I've seen the following:

An IC (Lt Col) wearing the golf shirt/grey slacks with white socks, brown shoes, a multi colored sweater and a golf cap.

Golf shirt/grey stained work style pants, black belt with cowboy buckle, and black cowboy boots and the person was unshaven.

White aviator shirt, blue AF slides, grey slacks, white socks.

A scanner wearing the green flight suit (with grade insignia) with a beard and long hair.

This is not to mentions those who wear a green zoom bag that is about 5 sizes too small making them look like an overstuffed sausage, those who wear dirty or tattered uniforms, the long hair while wearing AF blues, are in need of at least a Saturday night bath, etc.

F-troop looked more professional.

Some of these same folks whine about no respect, no confidence in our abilities by the AF and others, etc.

This applies to every type of uniform. If you can't wear a clean, proper and serviceable uniform properly, how competent are you otherwise. I mean , if you have problems dressing yourself.....

Bottom line.......DOES YOUR APPEARANCE COMMAND RESPECT ??

If not....we really don't need you screwing it up for the rest  of us.


P.S. And yes I have spoken to some of these folks about their appearance.

[Pylon]

We do have a problem with professionalism when it comes to our appearance in uniform.

At a few SAREXs, missions and activities I've seen the following:

An IC (Lt Col) wearing the golf shirt/grey slacks with white socks, brown shoes, a multi colored sweater and a golf cap.

Golf shirt/grey stained work style pants, black belt with cowboy buckle, and black cowboy boots and the person was unshaven.

White aviator shirt, blue AF slides, grey slacks, white socks.

A scanner wearing the green flight suit (with grade insignia) with a beard and long hair.

This is not to mentions those who wear a green zoom bag that is about 5 sizes too small making them look like an overstuffed sausage, those who wear dirty or tattered uniforms, the long hair while wearing AF blues, are in need of at least a Saturday night bath, etc.

F-troop looked more professional.

Some of these same folks whine about no respect, no confidence in our abilities by the AF and others, etc.

This applies to every type of uniform. If you can't wear a clean, proper and serviceable uniform properly, how competent are you otherwise. I mean , if you have problems dressing yourself.....

Bottom line.......DOES YOUR APPEARANCE COMMAND RESPECT ??

If not....we really don't need you screwing it up for the rest  of us.


P.S. And yes I have spoken to some of these folks about their appearance.

This committee can't do anything about fixing that.  Why?  Because all those unprofessional behaviors are already prohibited by CAPM 39-1.  Those are all issues of enforcement by lower-than-NHQ echelons.  I don't think compliance can be any more mandated in print than it already is.

[afgeo4]

The one good thing about keeping the golf shirt combination is for mission base staff on an ES Mission in the summer time and for the Aircrews in the summer.  They are much more comfortable and easier to work in than a flight suit is during the summer.  Wearing nomex in an airplane in July and August not always the most comfortable.  And that's for someone who lives in New England I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for everyone in more temperate climates.  As far as mission base staff goes, the golf shirt combination in a way looks more working business like.  Which is good if you have to bring other people through mission base.  It's also good for a mission base staff that is part of a joint command staff on a mission.  Most of the orginization we work with usually dress in something similiar to that. 

Your first point (heat) is a good one.  But it's always a matter of degree - if a golf shirt and slacks is OK, why not a golf shirt and shorts?  That's even cooler.....and flip flops are even cooler than shoes.....

The comment about the golf shirt looking good in certain situations sounds reasonable.  No doubt, a mission staff all dressed in golf shirts would look very professional.  But we all know that's not what happens.  After all, what good does your golf shirt do CAP when the guy next to you is in BDUs, and the next guy is wearing a blue flight suit?  The value of a uniform for PR depends on what everyone is wearing - not just any single member.

If someone wanted to MANDATE the golf shirt for wear in certain situations, that would be different.  Since that would go over like a lead ballon, perhaps going with BDUs/BBDUS is better.  You can always take the shirt off when it's really hot, and then at least everyone is in the same style of uniform - just two different colors.  Fewer uniform choices = more uniformity.

Someone can mandate that. Your unit commander. A unit CC certainly may say "everyone should wear the golf shirt with gray slacks for the meeting of...." It's ok to do that. In fact, every unit I've ever seen had a Uniform of the Day as a policy. The golf shirt is inexpensive, so a member's comment of "you're making me spend money!" is baseless... it's cheaper than any and every other uniform combination out there.

[0]

We do have a problem with professionalism when it comes to our appearance in uniform.

At a few SAREXs, missions and activities I've seen the following:

An IC (Lt Col) wearing the golf shirt/grey slacks with white socks, brown shoes, a multi colored sweater and a golf cap.

The two parts I highlighted have no bearing with the grey and golf shirt combo.  At least from a regualtion standpoint unless your wing has a suplement saying making it more restrictive.  But as the regulations stand now you can wear whatever sort of outer garment or head device with this combo.  Now I for one try to keep it looking inline so if I wear this style for an added layer of warmth I wear my CAP sweatshirt I got from CAPmart.

[Dragoon]

We do have a problem with professionalism when it comes to our appearance in uniform.

At a few SAREXs, missions and activities I've seen the following:

An IC (Lt Col) wearing the golf shirt/grey slacks with white socks, brown shoes, a multi colored sweater and a golf cap.

Would ya believe that the sweater and golf cap were totally legal?  Strange but true....perhaps we should tighten up the regs.

Golf shirt/grey stained work style pants, black belt with cowboy buckle, and black cowboy boots and the person was unshaven.

The black cowboy boots, lack of shaving and probably the pants are all legal.  Strange but true....perhaps we should tighten up the regs.

A scanner wearing the green flight suit (with grade insignia) with a beard and long hair.....
.....the long hair while wearing AF blues...

These are wrong by the regs.  But of course, to the public there's no difference in a long haired buy in AF blues and  long haired guy in a corporate suit.  USAF may know the difference, but the public doesn't.  To them, either long hair is okay, or it's not.  What color your shirt is doesn't play into it.  (I'm not arguing in favor of long hair in USAF suits - just pointing out that the schizonphrenic nature of our policies doesn't really help us with the general public.)

Bottom line.......DOES YOUR APPEARANCE COMMAND RESPECT ??

Absolutely.  Respect for yourself, or more importantly, respect for the rest of the team/aircrew/staff/squadron you're working with.

And if we had fewer options, not only would we look more uniform, but there'd be less uniform rules to memorize, and we'd increase the chances that everyone would actually know what the rules were.

[ddelaney103]

Separating "improper uniform wear" for a second, because you can wear any uniform badly, the golf shirt is a problem because it's been allowed to mutate into the uniform for all seasons.

There is usually an expected niche for each uniform, most niches having both AF and corporate options.

The golf shirt is the exception.  I've seen it listed as an acceptable uniform for events that you would wear AF service or corp white/gray or white/blue uniforms.  It also can be worn as mission wear. 

Now you have a uniform that looks out of place with the office wear uniforms and out of place with the field types.  The problem isn't the golf shirt but the fact the uniform doesn't mesh with either of places it's used.

Part of the purpose of uniforms is to give us a group image as well as an individual image.  There may be a place for golf shirts, but I don't think it's either office wear or field wear.

[CAP_truth]

Personally I feel golf shirts belong where they belong on the golf course not at meetings or mission headquarters. New media may be around a mission base and it does not look good to see members running around in golf shirts. That my opinion

[Gunner C]

Personally I feel golf shirts belong where they belong on the golf course not at meetings or mission headquarters. New media may be around a mission base and it does not look good to see members running around in golf shirts. That my opinion

  :clap:

[BillB]

Just a thought, wouldn't the golf shirts look more uniform is regular USAF blue pants were worn rather than several shades of grey?
Blue CAP golf shirt emboridered name and rank included
blue AF belt and buckle
blue AF pants.
This would look more like an informal uniform rather than a flying club.  And it is distintive enough as a CAP uniform rather than USAF

[mikeylikey]

BACK TO Suggestions.........

Has anyone suggested the elimination of "uniform variations" at Wing and Region levels.  I know most wings and regions have their staff wearing some sort of "different" uniform than everyone else.  Whether that be a different polo shirt that says "Main Wing" and has their HQ patch on it", or a black ball cap instead of the BDU Cover with their BDU's. 

We should all (and I mean everyone) be in the same uniforms that are found in 39-1.  So I suggest that Wing and Region HQ personnel MUST wear the same uniform variations as the members they lead.  No local variation allowed.   

(Just so you know where I am coming from, in PAWG we MUST wear those orange ball caps.  However, the Wing staff wear blue ballcaps.  They also have different undershirt, different polo shirts, etc.  From speaking with members in other Wings, I hear this is common across the country.) 

[Eclipse]

Just a thought, wouldn't the golf shirts look more uniform is regular USAF blue pants were worn rather than several shades of grey?
Blue CAP golf shirt emboridered name and rank included
blue AF belt and buckle
blue AF pants.
This would look more like an informal uniform rather than a flying club.  And it is distinctive enough as a CAP uniform rather than USAF

The cut of the USAF pants is not appropriate for a casual shirt, nor are they very comfortable or durable. The polyester ones snag on everything, and neither those nor the blend are machine washable.

[scooter]

I personally like the polo shirt uniform, dont really care if the pants are grey or kakhi. Wear it most of the time except when wearing a flight suit. However, there appears to be no standardization concerning the CAP patch on the shirt. Vanguard sells the shirts with the CAP patch on both the left and right breast. Pick one side and make them all the same. Might even lower cost.

[AlphaSigOU]

Col. White I'm not sure if this has been sugested yet.  But if I read your meaning corectly to make our service uniforms more in line with the AF for the blues I have an idea that could work.  No more grey slides metal grade.  On the epulets of the service dress we also pin on the CAP metal cutouts just like is done on the Corprate unforms windbreaker.  And for the blues shirts we wear the AF officer slides with CAP cutouts pined on to them. 

If Lt Col White hasn't already replied, here's my take:

Good idea, but the powers that be in the RealAirForce® are going to have a conniption fit of titanic proportions giving us back hard rank on USAF-style service dress, even with pinning on metal CAP cutouts on the epaulet. They'll probably tell us it's not distinctive enough. Even if we wear scapulars, hair shirts and go on our knees all the way to Canossa to beg forgiveness to His Holiness the Pope (in this case, up the chain of command to CAP-USAF and then AU and AETC), it's already been asked and already shot down in flames more than once. (The' Walk to Canossa' could be probably be done down the main drag of Randolph from the main gate to the 'Taj Mahal', though.  )

We used to wear AF blue shoulder marks with CAP embroidered on them until the 'Barry Board' fiasco of the late '80s early 90s. That might fly for the corporate blues, but it's highly doubtful the RealAirForce® will give 'em back to us for wear with AF-style. Still have a pair of Oooold Style CAP blue shoulder marks ready to go.

(For those o' youse who ain't practicing Roman Catholics (weddings, baptisms and funerals for me!) here's Wikipedia's definition of the Walk to Canossa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walk_to_Canossa .

[afgeo4]

Personally I feel golf shirts belong where they belong on the golf course not at meetings or mission headquarters. New media may be around a mission base and it does not look good to see members running around in golf shirts. That my opinion

You know what looks great to the media? People who save lives without getting paid for it. They don't care what you're wearing as long as you get the job done. Hey..! Guess what..! That's the same thing that looks good to the families for the ones lost and to the actual people who are lost and... the Air Force is cool with it too!

Look, I'm not one for super-casual corporate wear stuff, but the uniform doesn't reflect on professionalism. Lack of uniformity in appearance and actions does.

[DNall]

The one good thing about keeping the golf shirt combination is for mission base staff on an ES Mission in the summer time and for the Aircrews in the summer.  They are much more comfortable and easier to work in than a flight suit is during the summer.  Wearing nomex in an airplane in July and August not always the most comfortable.  And that's for someone who lives in New England I can't even begin to imagine what it's like for everyone in more temperate climates.  As far as mission base staff goes, the golf shirt combination in a way looks more working business like.  Which is good if you have to bring other people through mission base.  It's also good for a mission base staff that is part of a joint command staff on a mission.  Most of the orginization we work with usually dress in something similiar to that. 

I live in Texas, where I can assure you it gets a tad toasty now & then. I don't wear nomex on aircrew cause it looks or feels good. I wear it cause we're flying low & slow near our weight limit in bad to quickly changing denisty altitude, wind, and weather conditions, pulling high rate turns in unfamiliar territory. Flight suits are essential safety gear & I personally believe they should be mandated for mission flight duty as they already are in some wings.

As to the rest, I don't care about your comfort or if you think you can get away with business casual cause some civilian administrator from a real emergency response agency is wearing something similiar. You aren't them. You are showing up in uniform saying the Air Force sent you here.

The fact is you don't belong closer than two states away from any kind of disaster or real SaR mission unless you meet either the FEMA standards for civilian responders, or you meet the similiar military operational requirements. I don't know about you personally, but CAP as an org does neither.

When you show up there looking and acting official with the Air Force standing behind you, you're giving the implicit expectation that you meet real Air Force training & mission capable standards, at least to a national guard level. They are under the impression that the Air Force is vouching for your certification level, but if they ever call you on it you're getting sent home.

What CAP does is reinforce that misimpression by looking overly official & playing up our military ties. Those agencies in turn give us missions & then it becomes about our performance & not what training some document says we need to be able to do that job. For better or worse, that's the way it's always been.

Certainly I'm of the opinion that we need to work internally to actually meet those standards. If & when we accomplish that, then I'm still going to say we need to present an image that reinforces our links to the Air Force. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather get to the mission than spend time justifying my credentials to someone before they'll let me get started.


Anyway, I think we've pretty well covered the golf shirt issue. If I might respectfully sugest... moving back on topic.