NHQ Uniform Committee

[AlphaSigOU]

30 pages?!   

And still going! 

[JohnKachenmeister]

It don't surprise me.

This is ONE opportunity to have your voice heard in the otherwise-soundproofed halls of Maxwell.

[AlphaSigOU]

It don't surprise me.

This is ONE opportunity to have your voice heard in the otherwise-soundproofed halls of Maxwell.

Nahhh... that should be 'Max-hell'!

[RogueLeader]

topic anybody. . . .

I like the idea of going to khaki.  Even if i don't plan on wearing them anytime soon.

[DrJbdm]

Khaki presents a much cleaner, more professional image with a polo shirt then gray does.  Most Law Enforcement Agencies that have a polo shirt authorized for wear will mandate khaki pants and I have yet to see a problem of different shades. I have been to MANY MANY in-service classes and have seen khakis worn with lots of Dept polo shirts and have never seen an issue. it looks very professional, beats the Gray pants thing hands down.


   Some times, a professional image is more important then trying to go on the cheap. It's more important that we look good then try to save money by going to a cheaper, less professional looking item. Image is everything, it's all we have.

[RiverAux]

I'd bet that those police departments probably require that the pants be purchased from a specific supplier, hence they all look the same.  That is not what we're talking about here. 

Khaki pants and the white aviatior shirt too?  I'm no fashion guru, but that would look sort of stupid.  Or are we going to keep gray pants with them?   

[cnitas]

Khaki pants and the white aviatior shirt too?  I'm no fashion guru, but that would look sort of stupid.  Or are we going to keep gray pants with them?   

I think the idea is to eliminate the grays and make blue-white aviator the single corp uniform, and then allow polo with khakis for instances where a 'civillian' uniform is desired.

At least that is how I would do it...

[AlphaSigOU]

If CAP could come up with a specification for a particular khaki trouser type (say, flat front, straight leg, cotton/poplin blend, for example) and either authorized it for sale through Vanguard or other suppliers you'd get some uniformity there. The shade may vary slightly between batches but that's a given with khaki trousers.

What about Navy-style wash khaki trousers? (Not CNT - Certified Navy Twill, since that's polyester.) Would the Squiddies have kitties if we borrowed their khaki trousers? 

[RiverAux]

That is exactly what needs to be done.  I personally don't care whether they are khaki or gray, but I just find the assumption that requiring people to switch to just "khaki" will significantly reduce the number of color variations we would see with these uniforms to be ludicrous.  Either require a specific brand, color, and style (and not allow any others to be worn) or don't even bother. 

[LtCol White]

I'd bet that those police departments probably require that the pants be purchased from a specific supplier, hence they all look the same.  That is not what we're talking about here. 

Khaki pants and the white aviatior shirt too?  I'm no fashion guru, but that would look sort of stupid.  Or are we going to keep gray pants with them?   

As a police officer, we wear the polo/khaki combos a lot. There is no mandate on the pants. Everyone is told khaki and everyone comes up with the right thing. Amazing how that works.

The White/Gray combo would be eliminated completely

[mikeylikey]

I'd bet that those police departments probably require that the pants be purchased from a specific supplier, hence they all look the same.  That is not what we're talking about here. 

Khaki pants and the white aviatior shirt too?  I'm no fashion guru, but that would look sort of stupid.  Or are we going to keep gray pants with them?   

As a police officer, we wear the polo/khaki combos a lot. There is no mandate on the pants. Everyone is told khaki and everyone comes up with the right thing. Amazing how that works.

The White/Gray combo would be eliminated completely

YES!  Khaki at last! 

My favorite color is khaki, I do suggest that you allow khaki cargo pants.  They could serve a purpose.  But if no, no big deal. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm not sure if you guys know this, but Big Mother Blue also has a dark blue polo shirt with khaki pants as a casual uniform.

Mostly it is worn by recruiters.

I don't think we would need to get permission of the AF to use it, though, since we had a polo shirt uniform long before they did.

[DNall]

Two things....

1) The wht/gray on OD/sage tapes/grade turned out great. I'd add those OD back full-clr cloth grade for the grn flt suit. Transition: can just be an option & stop making the plastic encased, so will migrate on its own.

2) I got a real big problem with the golf shirt combo... hear me out on this.

As a civilian, I wear a polo/khakis all the time. It'd be perfectly fine in a civilian office on casual Friday. What I'm NOT okay with is using it as an all-purpose "uniform."

I do understand LE/FD/EMTs/etc have polo combos. They wear those for in-house training, or when in the field it's worn either with tac gear (pistol belt, EMT pants, etc) or at least they'll be rolling up in a big honkin fire truck/police car/ambulance. They don't have to work as hard to look official/professional/competent, because they ARE official/professional/competent, AND everything else about them (car/gear/fitness/etc) present an image that fits the mold.

CAP... we're going to be rolling up in a non-descript van/POV or flying an ordinary looking Cessna. We're going to be in a variety of uniforms (even if we boil this down a bit). And, here's the big one... we're going to have very old folks, kids, very out of shape people, folks with pony tails/beards/whatever, some very smart and some very dumb folks. CAP doesn't really have membership standards to speak of, and doesn't have intense training that knocks out people that can't hack it. In contrast to the emergency responders above, everything about else us excluding the uniform does NOT fit the mold.

So here's me over here running a mission.... I got this lady freakin out in the next room about her lost husband talking about calling her congressman cause all the govt is willing to do is send the keystone cops over here.

Here's me showing up at a joint agency or military function looking like it's open-house/family day back at the unit.

Here's me coming to a Gp/Wg training event/school looking like I'm here to hang out & catch the game instead of undergo an epiphany of professional & leadership/mgmt education, and more than likely behaving like the cloths I'm wearing.

What we need to do in CAP is present a facade of absolutely unquestionable (by our target audiences or anyone else) officialdom, professionalism, and competence. I need our "customers" (target audience) to look at my crew and feel a trust that causes them to call me for missions, and then to have complete faith that I can get the job done as well or better than any other agency in the country. I don't need to have a 20min conversation with a cop at 3am about why I need to access this property.


What I'm saying is simply much stricter wear rules about when the polo combo is appropriate, and if we can't agree on or stick to those, then do away with it all together.

[DrJbdm]

 I agree with everything you had to say Dennis,  seems some people in CAP or maybe just CAP leadership in general just can not get behind the concept that Perception is reality! Our Image is everthing! it's all we have, we have nothing else.

[DNall]

I don't know that you can fault anyone exactly. It really boils down to membership standards. We're at odds as an organization about being as inclusive as humanly possible, but then want to be looked at/treated/tasked as professional emer respdrs/air force/SaR teams/etc. The two things simply cannot co-exist. That's a huge and seperate internal issue.

In lieu of that, I think if we can look and somewhat act the part, then things will fall better into place. At that point, it'll be much more obvious that the real limiting factor is our people, and we'll know what we have to do if we want to really be a player and make a difference in the world. Now, maybe that's true & maybe it's not, but at very least it takes a major distraction off the table.

[Dragoon]

1.  I've got 3 different shades of khaki in my closet right now.

2.  If the goal is to allow dockers, it is much easier to find khaki dockers than grey ones.

3.  The golf shirt is problematic because it doesn't have a USAF equivalent.  Everything you can do in the golf shirt, you can do in some other uniform.   It's kind of the "I want to be in CAP but I want to avoid the whole military thing" uniform.  I personally would like to see it banned from flying and operational missions, and relegated to wearing only at times when casual civilian clothing would be authorized.

4.  Barring that, if it's gonna be uniform, it needs to be tightened up.  Only one style of pants (make a decision on things like cargo pockets, pleats, etc).  Consider adding grade - what kind of uniform doesn't display grade?  It could be emboidered as part of your name.  At least put in a specific list of when it's appropriate and when it's not.

5.  And (back on my high horse) prescribe outer wear.  If it's hidden under a denim jacket or college parka, it's not serving any purpose as a uniform at all.

[ddelaney103]

Worrying about (literally) shades of gray is biting off on a flare.  Anyone who's looked at a group of people in uniform is going to see differences in coloration. 

Your average set of BDU's will fade two or three shades before becoming out of tolerance - and some will wear them beyond that.  WWII GI's wore uniforms that ran the ran the whole khaki or olive spectrum.

There should be a few ground rules (cargo pockets or not, etc) but otherwise I wouldn't sweat it.

The question shouldn't be if the grays look alike, but if they can be made more like the other uniforms worn at events, or excluded from those events.

[Stonewall]

I agree with DNall above.  Even though I've posted several times about the standardization of the polo/khaki combo, it's only a desire to standardize it if it does in fact continue to be a "uniform option".  I'd rather not have it as an option, except maybe to patron members or whatever those catagories are.

Again, if the polo combo is to be optional, I want that option standardized.

[Trung Si Ma]

I notice the great disdain that members of this board seem to hold for the corporate uniforms in general and the golf shirt in particular.  It seems that if you decide to wear a corporate uniform, it is a consensus opinion that you are "fat or fuzzy" and if you wear a golf shirt you are, somehow, "unprofessional" or a "keystone cop".  Funny, 39-1, para 4-1 doesn't say you have to be fat or fuzzy to wear a corporate uniform.

It seems to me that there are about 20 – 30 golf shirt hating regulars on this board that are quite vocal in their denouncement of this uniform.  That's what – less than .01% of all of CAP-dom?  Every time I go to a CAP event as I travel around the country it seems that there are more people than that IN the golf shirt.

I spent 20+ years in the Army and have been in CAP since 1969 and I am not going to wear a military style uniform.  That doesn't seem to hinder my ability to interact with cadets nor their desire to attend the classes that I teach or to come to me for counseling and advice.  It also doesn't seem to bother my wing commander, nor prevent him from tasking me to do investigations or help other units.

I'm also not going to spend the money chasing every new uniform pronouncement that comes from higher headquarters.  Particularly when it will change again shortly – and probably back to the way it was originally within two or three cycles.  The only thing that has changed or will change on my golf shirt uniform is if I decide to change from basic pilot wings to senior pilot wings at some point.

I've talked to members who say that they'll quit CAP if you take away their uniform or the military style grade and title that they've "earned".  Seen some of them post on this very board and they are welcome to their opinion.  Their opinionisn't changing mine.

Wonder how many of us will be lost if you try and force us into a uniform?  This pilot would start flying young eagles instead of CAP cadets.

[davedove]

I notice the great disdain that members of this board seem to hold for the corporate uniforms in general and the golf shirt in particular.  It seems that if you decide to wear a corporate uniform, it is a consensus opinion that you are "fat or fuzzy" and if you wear a golf shirt you are, somehow, "unprofessional" or a "keystone cop".  Funny, 39-1, para 4-1 doesn't say you have to be fat or fuzzy to wear a corporate uniform.

That's a very good point.  Whether or not some folks want to believe it, there are some people who are neither "fat" nor "fuzzy" who CHOOSE to wear the corporate uniforms.