NHQ Uniform Committee

[Al Sayre]

D'oh I didn't read the description... Just saw "All Weather Coat's" and assumed they were the same one's I bought last year.  I got 3 USAF ones from them last year for $20.00 each for my family.  Warden's still has some pretty good deals, but you need to check their site regularly since they generally don't last long. 

[Dragoon]

I honestly can't believe some of you guys want to create ANOTHER jacket for the corporate uniform.

Get real.

It's incredibly real.  The idea is to save cost and increase uniformity, remember?  Right now there is NO legal uniform coat for the BBDU at all - your only choice is civilian outerwear which completley negates the advantages of having a uniform in the first place.

If you had a single coat that cost less the $35 (with patches), that could be worn with the TPU shirt, white and greys, Blue Field and Utility, and Golf shirt, you'd be saving serious cash AND making us actually look more uniform.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

[jimmydeanno]

I honestly can't believe some of you guys want to create ANOTHER jacket for the corporate uniform.

Get real.

It's incredibly real.  The idea is to save cost and increase uniformity, remember?  Right now there is NO legal uniform coat for the BBDU at all - your only choice is civilian outerwear which completley negates the advantages of having a uniform in the first place.

If you had a single coat that cost less the $35 (with patches), that could be worn with the TPU shirt, white and greys, Blue Field and Utility, and Golf shirt, you'd be saving serious cash AND making us actually look more uniform.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

There is a jacket authorized for the BBDU

A dark blue field jacket is available and authorized for wear. If worn, the same accouterments worn on the field uniform shirt will be worn.

It is the same style as the M-65 field jacket.  It looks good and it is already authorized.

[BrianH76]

I honestly can't believe some of you guys want to create ANOTHER jacket for the corporate uniform.

Get real.

It's incredibly real.  The idea is to save cost and increase uniformity, remember?  Right now there is NO legal uniform coat for the BBDU at all - your only choice is civilian outerwear which completley negates the advantages of having a uniform in the first place.

If you had a single coat that cost less the $35 (with patches), that could be worn with the TPU shirt, white and greys, Blue Field and Utility, and Golf shirt, you'd be saving serious cash AND making us actually look more uniform.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

There is a jacket authorized for the BBDU

A dark blue field jacket is available and authorized for wear. If worn, the same accouterments worn on the field uniform shirt will be worn.

It is the same style as the M-65 field jacket.  It looks good and it is already authorized.

If you're looking for a universal coat to be worn with the corporate uniform, the black overcoat would be a good idea.  It could be worn with everything from Corporate Service Dress to the BBDU's, similar to current regs for the AF double breasted coat (it can be worn with everything from mess dress to BDU's).  I don't know how practical it would be for SAR missions and field work, but it would be a universal coat for all uniforms. 

[mikeylikey]

Could I take a moment to review what we have so far?

1.  AF Blues:

- No change likely on weight requirements.
- Switch from gray to blue epaulet sleeves, with "CAP" identified.

2.  TPU:

- Switch from silver braid to same blue as on AF coat.
- Lose silver chinstrap from flying saucer cap.
- Switch from hard rank to blue epaulet sleeve, same as AF coat.
- Shirt to have same blue epaulet with "CAP."
- "CAP" lapel brass to remain.
- Allow neatly-trimmed beards, but NOT long hair.
- Not resolved:  wear of military ribbons and badges... Same rules as on AF coat?

3.  White and Grays:

- History.

4.  Flight Suits:

- Retain dual flight suits, sage green and dark blue.
- Sew-on bright rank for both shoulders.
- Sage green background for AF flight suit, dark blue for blue flight suit.
- Not resolved:  embroidered name badges?

5.  BDU's:

- Retain BDU for time being.
- Introduce ABU on a schedule driven by the AF logistical chain.
- No change to BDU during phase-out period.
- Retain blue BDU for the fats and fuzzies.
- Switch to dark blue nametapes and rank background for BBDU.
- Unresolved:  Dark blue or sage green background for ABU tapes and rank?

6.  Golf Shirt:

- Retain as a casual uniform.
- Switch to khaki trousers (Is this correct, or unresolved?)
- Establish a single authorized golf shirt.

7.  Blazer Uniform:

- Retain for IACE and as an alternate dress uniform.
- Switch to khaki trousers (Again, was this resolved?)

Does this summarize what has been discussed and decided, or do I have something wrong?

So we all don't have to read back to page 24 to catch up. 

[Dragoon]

I honestly can't believe some of you guys want to create ANOTHER jacket for the corporate uniform.

Get real.

It's incredibly real.  The idea is to save cost and increase uniformity, remember?  Right now there is NO legal uniform coat for the BBDU at all - your only choice is civilian outerwear which completley negates the advantages of having a uniform in the first place.

If you had a single coat that cost less the $35 (with patches), that could be worn with the TPU shirt, white and greys, Blue Field and Utility, and Golf shirt, you'd be saving serious cash AND making us actually look more uniform.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

There is a jacket authorized for the BBDU

A dark blue field jacket is available and authorized for wear. If worn, the same accouterments worn on the field uniform shirt will be worn.

It is the same style as the M-65 field jacket.  It looks good and it is already authorized.

I missed that - good catch.  OK, so if I wear corporate suits and I want to be "in uniform" when it's cold, I need

1.  A blue flight jacket (about $45 without patches) for the flight wear and golf shirt
2.  A black army windbreaker (about $80 without grade insignia) for the TPU shirt
3.  A blue M-65 (about $55 without patches)

Total cost - around $180 plus 25 or so for insignia.  Let's call it $200  (This cost is why we don't mandate outergear - we're afraid of the revolt if we make people spend that much).

Or. we could mandate at least a  black windbreaker with insignia for about $45 that's wearable with everything.  All those cool flight jackets and field coats could still be authorized for wear, but at least we'd have a low cost jacket we could mandate to improve our corporate appearance.

If anyone remembers the old ultramarine blue windbreaker the bookstore sold, many folks adopted that as the unofficial "CAP multi uniform coat."  We could do something similar and make it official, at least for corporate suits.

[jimmydeanno]

If anyone remembers the old ultramarine blue windbreaker the bookstore sold, many folks adopted that as the unofficial "CAP multi uniform coat."  We could do something similar and make it official, at least for corporate suits.

This one?

[Dragoon]

If anyone remembers the old ultramarine blue windbreaker the bookstore sold, many folks adopted that as the unofficial "CAP multi uniform coat."  We could do something similar and make it official, at least for corporate suits.

This one?

Exactly.  Just make it a little longer (to cover the BDU shirt tails) and make it black or blue (probably black, to match the leather A2 and the TPU overgarments).  Don't make it specifically a CAP item with the seal on it - just have folks sew/velcro the leather nametag and command patch. You can get coaches style windbreakers (with traditional collar vs knit collar) for around $30.

Then you've got a uniform

1. Everyone looks the same.
2. It would let the public know the wearer is in CAP
3. It woudl display name and grade.

Pretty much checks all the blocks.  And it could be cheap.

[BrianH76]

This one?

The idea of an all-purpose coat for the corporate and CAP distinctive uniforms is an excellent idea.  This jacket costs $40 at Vanguard.  Judging from the close-up, it's about $30 overpriced and couldn't be worn at any temp colder than the mid 60s. 

How about the blue M-65 field jacket?  Without the patches, it would look good enough with the blues, but be rugged enough for field work in the BBDUs.  Plus, it would actually keep you warm, especially with the optional liner.  Maybe a leather flightcrew patch for ID?

[Dragoon]

A cheap outer shell still allows for layering underneath.  Plus, if you went with a standard commercial design, folks who wanted to could buy thicker ones.  And by using black rather than blue, you'd have little shade variation amongst manufacturers.

The blue M-65 is another good idea.  It's a little pricier, and really doesn't go well with the TPU shirt (it's kind of a field item).  But it's fine the blue flight suit - when you have it on, you look just like you're in BBDUs.  It would be fine with the golf shirt as well.  Plus, I've already got one.    And by limiting the insignia to a leather nametag and command patch (shades of McPeake!) you shave $10 or so off the total cost.

Either would work.  But in the interest of affordability, I think a nylon shell is the better deal for a mandatory, minimum uniform outer garment.

[Eclipse]

Total cost - around $180 plus 25 or so for insignia.  Let's call it $200  (This cost is why we don't mandate outergear - we're afraid of the revolt if we make people spend that much).

Or. we could mandate at least a  black windbreaker with insignia for about $45 that's wearable with everything.  All those cool flight jackets and field coats could still be authorized for wear, but at least we'd have a low cost jacket we could mandate to improve our corporate appearance.

If anyone remembers the old ultramarine blue windbreaker the bookstore sold, many folks adopted that as the unofficial "CAP multi uniform coat."  We could do something similar and make it official, at least for corporate suits.

Or you could just not wear a uniform that has a prescribed jacket and wear whatever you want....

[BrianH76]

A cheap outer shell still allows for layering underneath.  Plus, if you went with a standard commercial design, folks who wanted to could buy thicker ones.  And by using black rather than blue, you'd have little shade variation amongst manufacturers.

The blue M-65 is another good idea.  It's a little pricier, and really doesn't go well with the TPU shirt (it's kind of a field item).  But it's fine the blue flight suit - when you have it on, you look just like you're in BBDUs.  It would be fine with the golf shirt as well.  Plus, I've already got one.    And by limiting the insignia to a leather nametag and command patch (shades of McPeake!) you shave $10 or so off the total cost.

Either would work.  But in the interest of affordability, I think a nylon shell is the better deal for a mandatory, minimum uniform outer garment.

I think the suggestion is good, but the jacket looks really cheap.  I don't know that it would project the best image for CAP.  The blue field jacket is a "top of my head" suggestion, and the first decent idea I thought of.  It's already authorized, easily procurable, and not too expensive.  I've seen it worn with service-type uniforms and it looks fairly decent.

[Eclipse]

How about the blue M-65 field jacket?  Without the patches, it would look good enough with the blues, but be rugged enough for field work in the BBDUs.  Plus, it would actually keep you warm, especially with the optional liner.  Maybe a leather flightcrew patch for ID?

The M65 with velcro insignia would be an excellent choice - could be worn over any Distinctive uniform, and just put the patches on when its on the BBDU - I think I might do just that.

I also know a few people who bought black M65's and just have no insignia - properly cared for the actually look pretty nice and are could to most sub-arctic temps.

[Dragoon]

Or you could just not wear a uniform that has a prescribed jacket and wear whatever you want....

Exactly. But that kind of eliminates the whole concept of "uniform" doesn't it.

Nahh, if the goal is to look uniform, the key is what folks can see.  Not what's underneath.  And it would help to find a way to do it without breaking the bank.

In the same way that the golf shirt is kind of the "minimum uniform" for new members because it's cheap, it would help to have a "minimum jacket."  Folks can still trade up.  But the Green Bay Packers coat has got to go!

[billford1]

For the Golf Shirt uniform I think it's fine like it is. If the gray slacks aren't all the same shade that should be a lesser consideration. Khaki slacks would add yet a new look to the mix. How long would the phase out of gray slacks last? Adding another purchase requirement for Khakis would be a hard sell for some in the senior crowd who want to continue to contribute their work to CAP without additional burden. Many of the golf shirt crowd are dealing with financial hardships already. The noticeable part of this uniform is the golf shirt itself. Besides if khakis are applied also to the Blazer uniform I think you'd have even more resistance to the khaki changeover.

[RiverAux]

No one has yet answered my point about there being just as many shades of "khaki" as there are of gray. 

Seems to me that the uniform committee is already going after a whole lot of fairly important changes and that the pants worn with the golf shirt are a fairly minor issue. 

In my non-CAP regulation setting experience when you're asking for big things, try to limit your proposal to just those big things.  The more minor things you try to lump in the proposal the bigger chance that the people you're proposing it too will just toss the whole thing out as being too complicated.  That, or one of them will get fixated on one of the minor recommendations and it will throw the whole thing off track. 

[LtCol White]

The khaki pants isn't a USAF issue. Strictly a CAP one. While there are various shades of khaki out there, they are closer to eachother than shades of gray. When you tell someone khaki, MOST are thinking of the same shade.

[RiverAux]

Never said it was an AF issue.  You have to convince an awful lot of CAP people to vote for it.  As I said, I've got at least 4 shades of khaki pants in my closet right now that look as different as any 4 pairs of gray pants you're likely to see at a CAP meeting.

To me this falls into the "change for the sake of change" category.  Leave well enough alone. 

[dogden]

I like the idea of the khaki pants, I have seen quite a few folks in my area wearing grey denim. I see less khaki denim in the stores than grey so that would limit the problems around here with the denim. If you say khaki pants most people know you mean slacks not denim anyways.

[JC004]

30 pages?!