NHQ Uniform Committee

[ddelaney103]

You mean like............the leather jacket?

Or the blue flight jacket?

No, because you can't wear them with all of the corp suits. 

They also aren't flexible - with a BBDU length windbreaker you can wear it with all the corps w/o it looking funny.  Also, you could put layers underneath it so you can handle colder weather w/o breaking uniformity.

[Pylon]

For cadets - I think we need a formal waiver to allow them not to have to have field jackets and overcoats.  I think USAF might look favorably on it, as it lowers the cost of membership for these future potential recruits.

I've been able to put every single cadet in my unit in an M-65 field jacket at $0 cost to the members.  Our unit also charges no dues to the members. 

I don't think we should be encouraging a rag-tag-looking bunch of cadets in various civilian coats and jackets to wander around AF facilities or in public for that matter.  Safety first, and all, of course    but if you put even just a small bit of effort into it, putting your cadets in proper gear for the conditions, at little to no cost to the cadet, is not impossible.  (Oh, and it looks so much better!)

An example from a year or two ago of one of our flights:
http://ny408.org/News/NY408_C130_4.jpg
http://ny408.org/photos/LC130photos/P3150005.jpg

[JayT]

How do you do it?

[Dragoon]

You mean like............the leather jacket?

Or the blue flight jacket?

No, because you can't wear them with all of the corp suits. 

They also aren't flexible - with a BBDU length windbreaker you can wear it with all the corps w/o it looking funny.  Also, you could put layers underneath it so you can handle colder weather w/o breaking uniformity.

Exactly.  The blue flight jacket is probably the best so far, as it's pretty cheap and will work with golf shirt, BBDU, white and grey, and could work with the TPU shirt if the regs allowed.  But it won't work with BBDU.  Hence the idea of of a hip-length coat that WILL work with the BBDU.

And while blue is cool, if we're gonna go with black outergarments with the TPU, might as well go with black windbreakers.  And black flight jackets, to match the leather one.

[ddelaney103]

Nice, but of limited use, because:

1) you can layer under the BDU if you need to without looking odd, and

2) we need a service uniform option - BDU's are currently an optional uniform for Cadets.

Personally, I think we should allow M-65's for all Cadet uniforms except Service Dress.  Sure, it looks British but it would be an inexpensive way to achieve outerwear uniformity.

The AF, BTW, already has a universal outerwear option - the all weather coat.  It can be worn with service, Airmen Battle or Battle Dress Uniforms.  It's kind of WWII retro, but the real problem is the expense.

[Dragoon]

For cadets - I think we need a formal waiver to allow them not to have to have field jackets and overcoats.  I think USAF might look favorably on it, as it lowers the cost of membership for these future potential recruits.

I've been able to put every single cadet in my unit in an M-65 field jacket at $0 cost to the members.  Our unit also charges no dues to the members. 

I don't think we should be encouraging a rag-tag-looking bunch of cadets in various civilian coats and jackets to wander around AF facilities or in public for that matter.  Safety first, and all, of course    but if you put even just a small bit of effort into it, putting your cadets in proper gear for the conditions, at little to no cost to the cadet, is not impossible.  (Oh, and it looks so much better!)

An example from a year or two ago of one of our flights:
http://ny408.org/News/NY408_C130_4.jpg
http://ny408.org/photos/LC130photos/P3150005.jpg

I also am interested in how you do it, and if you can assure us that your "stuff for free" approach can be used nationwide.  My guess is that you've accomplished something spectacular, but we won't be able to expect everyone (or even most people) to do the same.

By and large, today our cadets ARE "a rag-tag-looking bunch of cadets in various civilian coats and jackets."  So, it looks like most guys haven't been able to pull off what you've pulled off.

Sooo...if we're gonna be honest and truthful, we've only got three choices.

1.  Make it legal to do what people are doing now.
2.  Enforce 39-1 and make all cadets buy field jackets and overcoats (and just let 'em freeze if they can't afford it).
or
3.  Authorized some sort of cheap uniform outergarment (like the windbreaker idea).

I vote for 3.  If not, then 1.  Because 2 just ain't gonna fly.  And letting folks break the regs as we do today is not sending the right lesson to our cadets or USAF.

[Pylon]

How do you do it?

It's not a factor of "We can't afford all this!!!"   We can, but by and large we don't try hard enough to find a solution.  It's easier to make up an easier route, even if that doesn't present as professional of an image and we ought to be.

There are dozens of ways squadrons can accomplish this, including fundraising, DRMO, relationships with local Army, AF, AFR, and ANG units, etc.  This is how we did it, in a squadron that charges no dues to members and comes from a largely economically depressed area.  If we can do it simply and quickly, and still focus on the mission, then just about any squadron ought to be able to do this.

We used money from fundraisers to buy about 20 - 25 M-65 field jackets in varying sizes from eBay (that's where we found the best prices).  By setting a maximum price we'd pay of something like $12 or $15, and bidding consistently we were able to acquire a closet full of field jackets.   I also solicited on CAPTalk for members selling field jackets in the same price range.

We marked them with squadron name and serial numbers, and sewed Civil Air Patrol branch tapes on.  We sewed a velcro strip over the other pocket for the nametape.  (We later had to sew on flags when they became mandatory, but at $0.80/piece, it didn't break the bank).  The jackets were now squadron property.

When new cadets join our squadron, they receive several nametapes as part of their initial kit.  One they size and affix to a strip of velcro.  They get issued a field jacket when we issue them their BDUs, boots, and other gear and they simply slap their velcro'ed nametape on and pin on their grade insignia.  If they need a different size, leave the unit, or whatever - they just swap out the velcro nametape.

We have "CADET" nametags and nametapes on hand so even the newest members can be in complete 39-1 compliance while awaiting their customized pieces to arrive.

The whole process of buying, sewing and acquiring took only a couple of days spaced out over a month or so.  It didn't use even 20% of our fundraised money from that year, so it wasn't a detriment to the activities and other things we do.   It was not complicated, and now our squadron has about 25 field jackets.  We'll have them indefinitely and can use them over and over again, winter after winter.   Maybe in spring or summer when things settle down, we'll do the same process (minus all the sewing!) for lightweight blues jackets.

[Eclipse]

I also am interested in how you do it, and if you can assure us that your "stuff for free" approach can be used nationwide.  My guess is that you've accomplished something spectacular, but we won't be able to expect everyone (or even most people) to do the same.

I'll help, because we do it, to...

DRMO, eBay, Surplus stores (there's a start).

As at least 4 services cycle from woodland camo to "other", we're swimming in uniforms, and as everyone, including CAP, started moving to Goretex, the M65's have started getting plentiful on the secondary market as well.

DRMO requires a little effort and coordination with you Wing LG, but its well worth it.

[Dragoon]

How do you handle service overcoats?  Does every single cadet get one of these for free

[Dragoon]

How do you do it?

It's not a factor of "We can't afford all this!!!"   We can, but by and large we don't try hard enough to find a solution.  It's easier to make up an easier route, even if that doesn't present as professional of an image and we ought to be.

There are dozens of ways squadrons can accomplish this, including fundraising, DRMO, relationships with local Army, AF, AFR, and ANG units, etc.  This is how we did it, in a squadron that charges no dues to members and comes from a largely economically depressed area.  If we can do it simply and quickly, and still focus on the mission, then just about any squadron ought to be able to do this.

We used money from fundraisers to buy about 20 - 25 M-65 field jackets in varying sizes from eBay (that's where we found the best prices).  By setting a maximum price we'd pay of something like $12 or $15, and bidding consistently we were able to acquire a closet full of field jackets.   I also solicited on CAPTalk for members selling field jackets in the same price range.

We marked them with squadron name and serial numbers, and sewed Civil Air Patrol branch tapes on.  We sewed a velcro strip over the other pocket for the nametape.  (We later had to sew on flags when they became mandatory, but at $0.80/piece, it didn't break the bank).  The jackets were now squadron property.

When new cadets join our squadron, they receive several nametapes as part of their initial kit.  One they size and affix to a strip of velcro.  They get issued a field jacket when we issue them their BDUs, boots, and other gear and they simply slap their velcro'ed nametape on and pin on their grade insignia.  If they need a different size, leave the unit, or whatever - they just swap out the velcro nametape.

We have "CADET" nametags and nametapes on hand so even the newest members can be in complete 39-1 compliance while awaiting their customized pieces to arrive.

The whole process of buying, sewing and acquiring took only a couple of days spaced out over a month or so.  It didn't use even 20% of our fundraised money from that year, so it wasn't a detriment to the activities and other things we do.   It was not complicated, and now our squadron has about 25 field jackets.  We'll have them indefinitely and can use them over and over again, winter after winter.   Maybe in spring or summer when things settle down, we'll do the same process (minus all the sewing!) for lightweight blues jackets.

Would you be willing to mandate this in the regs.  I.e. "Squadron commanders will ensure that all cadets recieve a BDU field jacket free of charge.  No other outwear will be authorized."

I've got no problem with this - nor in relieving any squadron CC who doesn't comply.  But I'm a hardass.

My guess is that this would go over like a lead balloon. Folks would either ignore it (like they do today) or just quit.   But unless you mandate it, and hold someone responsible, you can't expect it to happen.


What you have done is truly exceptional - and my hat is off to you. 

But it isn't the norm.  Many units have no relationship with nearby military units, no access to DRMO, and aren't made up of members willing to do the amount of fundraising neccessary.  Nor adequate storage space to store squadron-owned uniforms.

We can either accept that most cadets will wear civilian outerwear illegally (like today) or figure out an honest compromise.

[MIKE]

All-weather coats would be better since they are more water repellent than an M-65, can be worn with service uniforms and the BDU, and only require metal insignia or epaulet sleeves.  No tapes or patches to sew on anymore.  Would be fine "in garrison."  If you are gonna actively be in the field, then you are probably gonna want a "Field" jacket or ECWCS parka.

[ddelaney103]

All-weather coats would be better since they are more water repellent than an M-65, can be worn with service uniforms and the BDU, and only require metal insignia or epaulet sleeves.  No tapes or patches to sew on anymore.  Would be fine "in garrison."  If you are gonna actively be in the field, then you are probably gonna want a "Field" jacket or ECWCS parka.

The problem is all-weather coats are $80 new and not as available on the thrift store market (since only the AF uses blue ones).

[mikeylikey]

MCSS just dropped the prices on the BDU pattern Gortex jackets.  They are around $97.45 now.  I say give it a year and Gortex in that pattern will show up at DRMO and surplus like crazy when the ABU pattern gortex hits all AF units.  I am comfortable in gortex, but I am only in PA.....not as far north as Pylon, or others so I am not sure if they will work out. 

[Eclipse]

But it isn't the norm.  Many units have no relationship with nearby military units, no access to DRMO...

>All< units have access to DRMO. Talk up the chain to you Wing LG. 

I'm not saying there's a DRMO depot in every back yard, but I would bet most have one within a reasonable driving distance.

What's reasonable?  Several hours if they have what you need, like say, modern computers with flat screens, notebooks, and uniform items.

As to the rest, I wouldn't be in favor of any kind of unfunded mandate to make units provide uniform items, but eBay and Surplus outlets are open to anyone.

[JayT]

I honestly can't believe some of you guys want to create ANOTHER jacket for the corporate uniform.

Get real.

[BrianH76]

Is the NHQ Uniform Committee going to be a standing committee, or an ad hoc committee that will disband when this process is complete?  Will there be a future way for members to recommend uniform changes and comment on proposed uniform changes?  How does the committee plan to communicate to the membership regarding any possible changes to the uniform made during this process and receive feedback from the entire membership.  This forum is great, but there are tens of thousands of CAP members, and they likely all don't visit here.

[LtCol White]

Is the NHQ Uniform Committee going to be a standing committee, or an ad hoc committee that will disband when this process is complete?  Will there be a future way for members to recommend uniform changes and comment on proposed uniform changes?  How does the committee plan to communicate to the membership regarding any possible changes to the uniform made during this process and receive feedback from the entire membership.  This forum is great, but there are tens of thousands of CAP members, and they likely all don't visit here.

All of his will be up to NHQ. We are willing to serve on the committee as long as we are welcome to do so. There are plans in the works to communicate wider to the membership so stay tuned for that. 

[Al Sayre]

All-weather coats would be better since they are more water repellent than an M-65, can be worn with service uniforms and the BDU, and only require metal insignia or epaulet sleeves.  No tapes or patches to sew on anymore.  Would be fine "in garrison."  If you are gonna actively be in the field, then you are probably gonna want a "Field" jacket or ECWCS parka.

The problem is all-weather coats are $80 new and not as available on the thrift store market (since only the AF uses blue ones).

There are quite a few available on the web for around $20.00-$30.00  Wardens Supply is where I got mine.  http://www.wardenssupplyco.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23_25&products_id=399

[MIKE]

^ Those ain't AF All-weather coats.  They're black for one thing.

[ddelaney103]

^ Those ain't AF All-weather coats.  They're black for one thing.

They're Army and they're old style.  The single breasted jacket gave way to the double breasted trench coat style about 15 years ago.  I think the Army went to double breasted about the same time.