NHQ Uniform Committee

[LtCol White]

Just a reminder on the uniform process. Everything we compile and suggest as the Committee will be submitted to NHQ for review and then it will be sent up through the CAP chain for Air Force review/approval.

Just wanted to make sure all were familiar with how this works.

[Grumpy]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but do something about the first sergeant diamond. Yes or No.

Already under advisement and a suggested change.  Clearly NHQ intended for it to be authorized, hence having it made and attempting to authorize it by reg changes.  I'll propose proper inclusion of it in CAPM 39-1.

I've never seen a CAP First Sergeant except for cadets.  Is this a senior rank (position) or cadet rank you're looking at?

[LtCol White]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but do something about the first sergeant diamond. Yes or No.

Already under advisement and a suggested change.  Clearly NHQ intended for it to be authorized, hence having it made and attempting to authorize it by reg changes.  I'll propose proper inclusion of it in CAPM 39-1.

I've never seen a CAP First Sergeant except for cadets.  Is this a senior rank (position) or cadet rank you're looking at?

Cadet rank

[Hawk200]

Considering the length of this thread, I don't remember if this has been covered or not. So here goes:

Cold Weather Gear!

We need it in many places. CAP is not a tropical only organization.

As to the gear, stuff like Gore-Tex, fleece, gloves, mittens, scarves, poly-pro and parkas (such as the N-2B and N-3B) need to be included, or at least referenced, in the uniform manual. Cold weather footgear should be mentioned too.

In Alaska, I wore poly-pro, muklucks, an N-3B, mittens and a stocking cap at times. Sometimes just going to meetings (you need it at 20 below). Wasn't in the manual, but I didn't care, and I still have all my fingers and toes because I dressed properly. If I'd only worn what was authorized in the manual for cold weather, I'd be dead.

[ddelaney103]

Just for the record, I want to come out against the following:

1) Sage or blue cloth grade based on uniform.  One set of grade/tapes is easier to stock than two, easier to explain to newcomers, and just more uniform than two sets.

2) Blue epaulet slides w/CAP for service and service dress uniforms.  I think this is going to look odd on the service dress jackets.  If they won't allow metal grade and CAP chrome on the service dress jackets, I'd rather stay with gray slides for all (AF and corp) uniforms.

[mikeylikey]

Just for the record, I want to come out against the following:

1) Sage or blue cloth grade based on uniform.  One set of grade/tapes is easier to stock than two, easier to explain to newcomers, and just more uniform than two sets.

2) Blue epaulet slides w/CAP for service and service dress uniforms.  I think this is going to look odd on the service dress jackets.  If they won't allow metal grade and CAP chrome on the service dress jackets, I'd rather stay with gray slides for all (AF and corp) uniforms.

You like the color gray?

I think blue slides (if we have to have them at all) looks far better (as in making the jacket look LESS BUSY) than gray. 

Thanks Kach for putting that list together.

[O-Rex]

Just for the record, I want to come out against the following:

1) Sage or blue cloth grade based on uniform.  One set of grade/tapes is easier to stock than two, easier to explain to newcomers, and just more uniform than two sets.

2) Blue epaulet slides w/CAP for service and service dress uniforms.  I think this is going to look odd on the service dress jackets.  If they won't allow metal grade and CAP chrome on the service dress jackets, I'd rather stay with gray slides for all (AF and corp) uniforms.

nametapes-I think Navy blue would work for everybody: they are already stocking navy-blue rank for the blue utility uniform and flight suits.

blue-slides: it's a retro-80's thing: metal would be nice, but blue beats gray.  Even grays looked odd, but were better than the maroon berry-boards. Folks have been griping about getting back blue slides for years.

It's all in how you take it: I remember when the brushed metal nametags came out a couple of years back, and everybody, US and CAP alike hated them.  In reviewing the posts here, it looks like we got past it.

I think that the proposals on the table are a win-win for all, and moreover, if approved, a sort of recognition from USAF that we are trying to police ourselves and clean up our act: a sort of belated and full reversal of the berry boards, if-you-will.

It would be interesting to see what is USAF-blessed, what if any proposals will be midified and the time-frame for phase-in.

[BillB]

If you think CAP has to many uniform combinations, I was just out to Gainesville (FL) Airport. There were Six Army helicopters and one Navy chopper. Of 14 Army personnel, there were a total of 10 different uniform combinations. Two different styles of BDUs plus an ABU. Three different flight suits, four different flight jackets and three styles of boots. Only the Navy aircrew were all in the same uniform.

[FlyingTerp]

^ - I've seen the exact same thing working with the RM. 

IMHO, our uniform issues are not that bad.  A lot of the time, its not what is being worn, but how its being worn and by whom (ill fitting, mismatched, wrong insignia, etc)  .

That being said, I like a lot of the proposed changes.  However, my personal opinion is that 39-1 needs to be clarified and rewritten as a priority before we make any uniform changes.

[ddelaney103]

Just for the record, I want to come out against the following:

1) Sage or blue cloth grade based on uniform.  One set of grade/tapes is easier to stock than two, easier to explain to newcomers, and just more uniform than two sets.

2) Blue epaulet slides w/CAP for service and service dress uniforms.  I think this is going to look odd on the service dress jackets.  If they won't allow metal grade and CAP chrome on the service dress jackets, I'd rather stay with gray slides for all (AF and corp) uniforms.

You like the color gray?

I think blue slides (if we have to have them at all) looks far better (as in making the jacket look LESS BUSY) than gray. 

Thanks Kach for putting that list together.

Yes, I do like the gray slides - they look professional and mark us as CAP w/o being too jarring.

I would be perfectly happy to use gray boards and gray tapes/insignia - it would establish a link across all of the uniforms.  While people understand the gray slides on the service dress, putting the blue ones on will get "aren't they supposed to go on the shirts?" comments from the AF.

Being AF, I don't have this obsession with dressing just like "big brother blue."

[Stonewall]

Sorry, Colonel, I haven't read the 26 pages of suggestions, topic drifts or arguments, just gonna throw in my $.02.

Blues/Service type uniforms

As much as I wish we could all wear the AF service dress uniform, I hate having two separate uniforms for members, the AF Service Dress and TPU.  If I didn't meet height/weight/grooming standards, I wouldn't want to be forced to wear a suit vs a uniform because we only had AF blues as an option.  That said, my suggestion is this.

NOTE: I've only seen the TPU a couple times in pictures, it's a double breasted thing, right?  If so, I think that looks like crapola.

Anyway, my suggestion:

1 Blues type uniform, call it a KBU (Kirt Bowden Uniform), I don't care.  

White shirt, just like AF blues shirt, but white (long and short sleeve)
Blue pants, AF style.
Blue coat, CAP style (TPU, KBU, but not identical to the AF, except for material)
Blue AF tie for LS or "class A" set-up

CAP cutouts
Metal rank on epaulets
Blue 3-line nametag on "class B" version
Silver-brushed type nametag on "class A" version
Ribbons (military, CAP, USCG Aux, civilian DOD, or combination there of)
Badges (military, CAP, or combination there of)

Nix Mess Dress!!!!!  Simply take off the nametag and add mini-medals with bow-tie.

Utility type uniform

My personal suggestion would be solid OD BDUs, not camouflage, with white on ultramarine (blue) background, no flags, no wing patches.  But I know that won't happen.  I think it gives the appearance of a military auxiliary that goes along with the cadet program and still gives us a good looking utility uniform.  Can be purchases with the same ease as the BBDUs.

With that out of the way, I say we pick one utility uniform and go with it.  As much as I personally dislike BBDUs, if it puts us in the same uniform, I say go for it.  But, it takes away from the militaresque of our program.

Rank on both collars
Allow for the wear of 3 badges (2 up top, 1 on pocket (or pocket flap)
No special patches to detract from uni-formity

Getting rid of a lot of ES patches, NCSA patches, American Flag and so on, would save a ton of money to individuals and the organization as a whole.

As a side note, I recently purchased a set of Tru-Spec Tactical Response Uniform (TRU).  Basically, it's the Army's ACU but in solid color.  I happened to buy mine in OD green.  Gott'em for work.  They would be awesome.  Everyone in one uniform and they're non-iron, look professional and durable.  But again, I'm sure this is just me dreaming.  Maybe I'll set them up with CAP stuff on to show as an example of how simple and professional they can look to your uniform committee.

Anyway, thanks for letting me express my ideas, albeit I'm sure they're too far out there for consideration.

Hooah and Semper Vi!

BTW, the TRU:



Cancel that on the TRU, just remembered they don't have regular front-breast pockets for nametags.  But they do sell a regular BDU style blouse.

[BrianH76]

I've been lurking for a while and simply reading, but have finally decided to step off the sidelines and wade into this discussion.  I did promise myself that I would not make my first post about uniforms, but I suppose I'll eat that promise.  I guess what makes this different is that this uniform committee is a CAP-sanctioned process.

Some of the ideas I like; others I don't.  Since I have no way of ensuring that only my favorite changes make it into the new 39-1, I vote to leave things the way they are now.  The grey slides and blue nametapes look fine to me, but even if they didn't, it wouldn't be worth what I'd have to pay to change them. 

And if all these proposed changes make it into a new regulation, we're all going to be digging into our pockets to come into compliance.  I've already been caught up in one now-reversed uniform change in my one year of CAP service (the U.S. Civil Air Patrol tapes).  So please, leave the uniforms alone for a while.

v/r,

Brian C. Hughes, 2d Lt, CAP

[O-Rex]

If you think CAP has to many uniform combinations, I was just out to Gainesville (FL) Airport. There were Six Army helicopters and one Navy chopper. Of 14 Army personnel, there were a total of 10 different uniform combinations. Two different styles of BDUs plus an ABU. Three different flight suits, four different flight jackets and three styles of boots. Only the Navy aircrew were all in the same uniform.

Remember that the Army itself is in a uniform transition period of their own, so yes, you are going to have a "fashion-show" for a while.

I remember 1984-85 when I was in an Army Aviation unit, and there was a similar transition, we had BDU's, Fatigues, VN-era Jungle Fatigues, one and two-piece flight suits: a real Circus.

At least there were no golf-shirts in the mix  

While everyone is going to throw in their own two centavos, I pretty much like what I see from Lt Col White's photos: seems we're down to what flavor of sprinkles we are going to use.....

[Pylon]

I've been lurking for a while and simply reading, but have finally decided to step off the sidelines and wade into this discussion.  I did promise myself that I would not make my first post about uniforms, but I suppose I'll eat that promise.  I guess what makes this different is that this uniform committee is a CAP-sanctioned process.

Some of the ideas I like; others I don't.  Since I have no way of ensuring that only my favorite changes make it into the new 39-1, I vote to leave things the way they are now.  The grey slides and blue nametapes look fine to me, but even if they didn't, it wouldn't be worth what I'd have to pay to change them. 

And if all these proposed changes make it into a new regulation, we're all going to be digging into our pockets to come into compliance.  I've already been caught up in one now-reversed uniform change in my one year of CAP service (the U.S. Civil Air Patrol tapes).  So please, leave the uniforms alone for a while.

v/r,

Brian C. Hughes, 2d Lt, CAP

Thank you, Brian, for your input. 

Cost to the member is one of the foremost thoughts on the minds of the committee when we consider any and all changes.  We understand that everybody here is a volunteer (we are too!) and has to pay out-of-pocket for uniforms.

We do have some issues with our uniforms which we'd like to resolve.  We want to find the most cost-effective and appropriate solutions, amicable to members, the NB and the AF, and make these changes in one batch and be done with uniform changes for quite a while.  We want everything to be thoroughly thought-through and put out to the membership for feedback before we add it to the list of things we'd like to implement. 

I appreciate your comments very much (and I hope you'll continue to post here at CAPTalk!  ).

[SKYKING607]

My two cents worth:

Said in a previous posting to bring back the OD BDU or "utility" uniform.  I really miss my old "pickle" suit. 

Would like to see some firm language that allows members to wear leather/cordura boots.  Some Regions and Wings have "penned" addendums to REQUIRE all-leather lace up boots for flight crews.  In some locales it is difficult to find an economical pair of all-leather "issue" boots!

Thanks! 

[kilnerd]

OK I haven't ready all 26 pages and I know my .02 isn't worth much, but here it is.

AF Style:

Standardize wear of insignia with AF (i.e. badges) for female and male uniforms, especially female uniforms since there have always been placement questions there (model rocketry) and specify this in the reg. The AF has a guide on this out on the AFPC website right now because of the new HAF badge.

Silver nametag on pull over sweater (once again standardize)

One Silver nametag is sufficient, we don't need two different ones, reduce this cost

Clarify the wear of ribbons on all blues uniforms for cadets, and allow short stacking on blue shirt again.

Align corporate uniform with these standards and eliminate as many wear differences as possible


BDU/BBDU Uniform:

Standardize a color for nametapes (the darker blue looks good and more modern) and IMHO it would look ok on the ABU

Since the AF has gotten rid of all the patches on the ABU start reducing the number on the BDU to follow suit in the near future  LETS KEEP THINGS SIMPLE

1) American flag patch - GONE!!
2) Wing Patch - moved to right pocket on BDU blouse, all patches formerly authorized for this location - GONE!!
3) Allow unit patch OR NCSA type patches on right pocket only, my qualm here - alot of units pay good money for a unit patch lets at least allow them to keep it until mandatory wear of the ABU
4) allow ES patch to stay until ABU becomes norm then it goes away.
5) possibly authorize a cloth commanders badge - keep wear in line with AF

Also, the wing and unit patches will not be worn on ABU - simplify

Flight suits

Pick a CAP Command Patch and keep it doesn't matter which one.

[mikeylikey]

^ Has anyone said get rid of the Wing Patch altogether?  It is just an expense anyway!  Reading the ABU uniform page at AF Portal (which I would share with anyone if they ask), there will be no patches on the ABU's except for occupational badges and flight badges.  We should follow suit and make our Uniforms match AF. 

Also, the AF has said no to colored ballcaps......we need a firm message from NHQ in 39-1 that says similar.  Don't give Wing Commanders and Region Commander the ability to mandate colored hats.  Lets stick to issue items to reduce costs.  Also get rid of colored ballcaps at Encampments and Special Activities.  Why make a member buy another hat they will only wear for a week?  Lets also stick with something on the color of undershirt.  Same idea......cost and uniformity.   

Also, lets take the Wing Commander and Region Commander out of the Uniform loop.  I say any changes or amends to 39-1 has to be approved by a uniform committee or NHQ.  They can push ideas up, but can't arbitrarily say "now everyone wears pink pistol belts.

Am I making sense, or nonsense........or has 25 pages of posts drained everyone.  Tough to scan through them all.

[Hawk200]

Lose wing patches. We don't need them. Unit patches are morale builders, people choose their unit, they don't necessarily choose their wing. I'd prefer to keep a unit patch option.

Maintaining some of the specialty patches is fine, there need to be a few distinct differences between the AF and CAP (especially as far as the Air Force is concerned). We could stand to reduce the number of them though. For starters, we don't need anything on the sleeves at all. Pockets and above tapes are fine.

I don't mind looking similar to the Air Force, but we don't need to look like cheap clones.

[PhoenixRisen]

I honestly don't have the time at the moment to go look back over 25 pages - so forgive me if it's already been brought up, but what about reinstating "short-stacking" for Cadets?

(For those of us that DON'T like wearing every, single ribbon we've got...)

[Trung Si Ma]

...For starters, we don't need anything on the sleeves at all...

Does this mean that you support collar rank for the NCO's?  If so, I'll second.