NHQ Uniform Committee

[Gunner C]

But how does that compare to the Blue BDU's available?  For instance, you can get the blue ones from BDU.com and they say they are sewn to military specification.  And you can get them in all different colors.

Remember, I'm thinking about the corporate uniforms here.

There is a call for mil-spec in blue. Police departments wear them, and they need something rugged. I don't see the woodland camo in mil-spec for too much longer as the demand for that camo is decreasing. Many places that wore them are going to some of the digital patterns.

I think blue BDU's will always be pretty much mil-spec, as they're still needed. The woodlands are dying off.

As for polos and khakis, sounds good to me. I might even consider that outfit if it looks presentable enough to me. The current polo seems to be 70's era material. Good source would be the 5.11 polo shirts. Got a few of those, and they wear like iron. Let me wear something like that with their pants too, and I've got plenty of pockets for all the excess stuff I seem to carry whenever I go anyplace.

There is a mil spec for the BBDUs.  The Coast Guard uses that uniform, with the major difference with the shirt being tucked in and the lower pockets on the jacket are omitted.

There's a move in the USCG for the shirt to be worn out of the pants.  I don't know if they are going to alter it to include the lower pockets on the jacket.

I'm thinking that uniform is going to be around a long time.

[RiverAux]

Lt. Col. White, do your recent comments on the height-weight standards mean that the committee will not be considering any changes at all?  Earlier you had stated that you were exploring adding some sort of BMI-related or body fat percentage option to supplement the existing height-weight chart. 

[Pylon]

Lt. Col. White, do your recent comments on the height-weight standards mean that the committee will not be considering any changes at all?  Earlier you had stated that you were exploring adding some sort of BMI-related or body fat percentage option to supplement the existing height-weight chart. 

Who's going to put volunteer members through being taped and measured for BMI?  Who's going to train people to take those measurements?  How many people will we lose when we tell them they need to step into the back room to have their body fat measured?   

Height/Weight is fairly easy to judge, at least in approximations.  You can tell who is toeing the line, and who is generally good to go.  Though our current method is an "honor system" - you know if a member who looks about 240 says "No!  I weigh 198!" without needing to ask said member to step on a scale.  BMI will practically require you to regularly tape and measure the body fat of all your senior members.  Not something we need to throw in the mix, and certainly not something that will simplify anything.

For simplicity's sake, our current system is great.  Everyone knows about how much they weigh; everybody knows their height.  We even already record it for peoples' CAPF101s.  Either you weigh under this number or you don't.  No confusion, less room for "scamming" the system, and no need to be pinching the belly's and fat paunches of any of our members, and taping their midsections.   Current system works fine for our purposes.

[LtCol White]

Lt. Col. White, do your recent comments on the height-weight standards mean that the committee will not be considering any changes at all?  Earlier you had stated that you were exploring adding some sort of BMI-related or body fat percentage option to supplement the existing height-weight chart. 

No, It meant that we could not ask USAF to back off the 10% standards as was being asked above.

We can look and see if there is another option acceptable and compliant to them but as Mike said, we will have to be able to prove it will be enforced and administered by competent personnel and depend on the feasibilty of this.

[O-Rex]

Lt. Col. White, do your recent comments on the height-weight standards mean that the committee will not be considering any changes at all?  Earlier you had stated that you were exploring adding some sort of BMI-related or body fat percentage option to supplement the existing height-weight chart. 

No, It meant that we could not ask USAF to back off the 10% standards as was being asked above.

We can look and see if there is another option acceptable and compliant to them but as Mike said, we will have to be able to prove it will be enforced and administered by competent personnel and depend on the feasibilty of this.

Given the fact that the Corporate and USAF uniforms are being streamlined and could look very similar, why change the weight standard?

[RiverAux]

Pylon, Body Mass Index is nothing more than a ratio based on your height and weight.  Plug it into an online calculator, and you're done.  No problem.  Now, if you wanted to get into body fat percentage, etc., that would require some attention to detail, but having to go that route would only be an option for somebody who is actually fit, probably looks good in the uniform, but doesn't meet the book standards.  I would not suggest that this be done for everyone.  

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed.  At least propose backing off the 10% over number.  Perhaps 15%.  Or better yet 10% for 18-25, 14% for 26-38, and 17% for 39++.  We are already on the honor system with the current 10%, why couldn't we continue that with a slight raise to 15%.  Face it......this has been an issue for (well since the AF said in the 90's) there needs to be a FAT limit for AF style.

This is most rightly so a Uniform issue that should not be thrown out because the AF has said No in the past.  Frankly.....the AF has said NO to EVERYTHING we have read on this thread in the past in some way or another.  Yet we are optimistic that they will say YES to a few items.

Give this a chance, because it may not have been expressed en-mass here, it is a concern and a topic of discussion for members.

[RiverAux]

I would like there to be a specific and clear name for each uniform combination.  There are for some, but not for others.  For example, what is the name of the AF-style uniform with Short Sleeve Shirt with tie?  Short Sleeve Shirt without tie?  Why are the mens and womens named differently (shirt vs blouse)? 

Also, clear up this phrasing in 1-5:

A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.

Makes it seem like you couldn't require BDUs for field work, etc. 

Remove references to CAP-MART in 1-8a.

Do we really need this clause in 2-1?  We're only supposed to be making essential stops anyway.  Also, if we have this, why does it only apply to flight suits and not other AF-style uniforms?

d. Flight Crew members wearing the green Air Force flight suit may make only essential stops en route to and from the duty performance site. If a stop is essential, members must meet the proper standards of neatness, cleanliness, and military image.

Get rid of BDU baseball cap option.  Looks stupid and as we move towards ABU there probably will not be an equivalent anyway.  The notes on figures 2-26 and 2-28 indicate that you're supposed to put an organizational patch in the middle of it which conflicts with what we're doing on our other hats. 

Get rid of utility uniform.  Serves no useful purpose.  Either the BBDU or Blue Flight Suit can be worn for whatever you might wear the utility uniform for so it is just extra. 

[O-Rex]

I know this is a little 'off-the-path,' and probably more of a procurement issue with Vanguard, but whatever color nametape we go to, can we get rid of the 100%cotton webbing in favor of the poly-cotton fabric strips that the Realmilitary now uses?

Its the 21st Century, and fabric technology has gone a long way.  Nobody uses cotton webbing anymore: it shrinks, fades and generally looks like crap after a few washings.

[wuzafuzz]

Thought I'd share what I think is a new idea for the uniform committee.

There have been lots of requests to lose the grey slides for rank insignia.  Why not go back to AF blue slides on shirts and hard rank on all coats / jackets, but wear a prominent CAP shoulder patch on each sleeve?  It would identify CAP members far more obviously than the grey slide with tiny CAP letters and it pays homage to our heritage.  Perhaps the Civil Defense style patch on both sleeves, or wear the CD patch on one sleeve with the wing patch on the opposite side.

I know the Air Force doesn't wear shoulder patches.  That's the point.  We would clearly stand apart while still looking sharp.  The US Naval Sea Cadets does this for their officers, even though the Navy doesn't.  It's worked well for them for at least 25 years.  Obviously we aren't the Sea Cadets, but the situation is similar.

This would accomplish several things:
1. Lose the somewhat unpopular grey slides, replacing them with AF blue slides.  Blue slides on shirts, hard rank on coats.  Applies to all Corporate and USAF service uniforms.
2. Better identify us as CAP members.  (We are proud to be CAP!)
3. Remind us and those who see us of our history.

As mentioned above, this is just an idea.  Constructive comments are most welcome!

[wuzafuzz]

A few thoughts to follow up my last post.

Using blue AF slides and a CAP specific shoulder patch would also reduce the number of unique CAP items needed from vendors.  One unique shoulder patch versus a pile of grey shoulder slides for each rank (regular slides and velcro slides for jackets.)

A shoulder patch may require placing NCO rank a bit lower.  Not sure if that's a problem or if it would work like the Army does it with stripes below other patches.  I've never actually seen a CAP NCO and am unsure if this would be an issue.

The overall effect should be unique enough to avoid concerns about "USAF officer impersonators."

Just thinking out loud......

[JohnKachenmeister]

Thought I'd share what I think is a new idea for the uniform committee.

There have been lots of requests to lose the grey slides for rank insignia.  Why not go back to AF blue slides on shirts and hard rank on all coats / jackets, but wear a prominent CAP shoulder patch on each sleeve?  It would identify CAP members far more obviously than the grey slide with tiny CAP letters and it pays homage to our heritage.  Perhaps the Civil Defense style patch on both sleeves, or wear the CD patch on one sleeve with the wing patch on the opposite side.

I know the Air Force doesn't wear shoulder patches.  That's the point.  We would clearly stand apart while still looking sharp.  The US Naval Sea Cadets does this for their officers, even though the Navy doesn't.  It's worked well for them for at least 25 years.  Obviously we aren't the Sea Cadets, but the situation is similar.

This would accomplish several things:
1. Lose the somewhat unpopular grey slides, replacing them with AF blue slides.  Blue slides on shirts, hard rank on coats.  Applies to all Corporate and USAF service uniforms.
2. Better identify us as CAP members.  (We are proud to be CAP!)
3. Remind us and those who see us of our history.

As mentioned above, this is just an idea.  Constructive comments are most welcome!

Oh, PLEASE!!!!!!

We JUST got rid of the wing patches on the blues!

I'd like to lose the stupid things off the BDU too, instead of leaving it up to the Wing King.

The idea is to make our uniform MORE consistent with the Air Force.

Not more consistent with the Boy Scouts.

[LtCol White]

Thought I'd share what I think is a new idea for the uniform committee.

There have been lots of requests to lose the grey slides for rank insignia.  Why not go back to AF blue slides on shirts and hard rank on all coats / jackets, but wear a prominent CAP shoulder patch on each sleeve?  It would identify CAP members far more obviously than the grey slide with tiny CAP letters and it pays homage to our heritage.  Perhaps the Civil Defense style patch on both sleeves, or wear the CD patch on one sleeve with the wing patch on the opposite side.

I know the Air Force doesn't wear shoulder patches.  That's the point.  We would clearly stand apart while still looking sharp.  The US Naval Sea Cadets does this for their officers, even though the Navy doesn't.  It's worked well for them for at least 25 years.  Obviously we aren't the Sea Cadets, but the situation is similar.

This would accomplish several things:
1. Lose the somewhat unpopular grey slides, replacing them with AF blue slides.  Blue slides on shirts, hard rank on coats.  Applies to all Corporate and USAF service uniforms.
2. Better identify us as CAP members.  (We are proud to be CAP!)
3. Remind us and those who see us of our history.

As mentioned above, this is just an idea.  Constructive comments are most welcome!

Please see the photos posted on page 19. Patches on service uniforms were removed by order of USAF so that is not an option.

[Grumpy]

Thought I'd share what I think is a new idea for the uniform committee.

There have been lots of requests to lose the grey slides for rank insignia.  Why not go back to AF blue slides on shirts and hard rank on all coats / jackets, but wear a prominent CAP shoulder patch on each sleeve?  It would identify CAP members far more obviously than the grey slide with tiny CAP letters and it pays homage to our heritage.  Perhaps the Civil Defense style patch on both sleeves, or wear the CD patch on one sleeve with the wing patch on the opposite side.

I know the Air Force doesn't wear shoulder patches.  That's the point.  We would clearly stand apart while still looking sharp.  The US Naval Sea Cadets does this for their officers, even though the Navy doesn't.  It's worked well for them for at least 25 years.  Obviously we aren't the Sea Cadets, but the situation is similar.

This would accomplish several things:
1. Lose the somewhat unpopular grey slides, replacing them with AF blue slides.  Blue slides on shirts, hard rank on coats.  Applies to all Corporate and USAF service uniforms.
2. Better identify us as CAP members.  (We are proud to be CAP!)
3. Remind us and those who see us of our history.

As mentioned above, this is just an idea.  Constructive comments are most welcome!

Oh, PLEASE!!!!!!

We JUST got rid of the wing patches on the blues!

I'd like to lose the stupid things off the BDU too, instead of leaving it up to the Wing King.

The idea is to make our uniform MORE consistent with the Air Force.

Not more consistent with the Boy Scouts.

Thanks for comparing the wing patches/shoulder patches to the Boy Scouts.  I'm sure my son who's in the 101st at Ft Campbell would appreciate it.

[Gunner C]

Thanks for comparing the wing patches/shoulder patches to the Boy Scouts.  I'm sure my son who's in the 101st at Ft Campbell would appreciate it.

I think I understand what he's saying.  Many CAP patches look lame.  I was a cadet in a wing when they got a new wing patch.  We thought it looked like a bowling team patch.  Army patches have heraldic/historic significance.  The VAST majority of CAP patches do not.  Many are just cartoons.  I'd like to get rid of most of them.

Air Force heraldry states that squadron patches are circles.  Group and above are shields.  Most wings do not conform to this.  The fewer wing patches we show, the more professional we look IMO.

[wuzafuzz]

The messenger has been shot!  

Eye rolling aside, some people want to be more consistent with the Air Force, some want unique uniforms, some don't care.  Arguably we aren't supposed to be so consistent we are indistinguishable.

I've worn uniforms for 25+ years and prefer to avoid what I think are goofy looking gadgets (grey slides on blue suits).  Patches can look professional while avoiding the color challenged slides.  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about what looks goofy.

The idea I presented would be a cost savings measure and is not a change simply for the sake of change.  It also addresses other concerns I've seen on this board time and time again.  Lt Col White asked for ideas and that's what he's getting.

Sometimes borrowing ideas from other organizations fits the bill.  

Incidentally, the U.S. Naval Sea Cadets are affiliated with the Navy League, not the Boy Scouts.

[wuzafuzz]

Just saw Lt Col White's post re: shoulder patches.  AF wants them all gone.  Dead horse.

I agreee many wing patches are goofy and could stand a lot of improvement.

wuzafuzz out!

[mikeylikey]

I tried to go back through all 24 pages, but has anyone mentioned adding the enlisted "US" cutouts for those CAP NCO's to the jackets?

Also, propose the new ABU pattern Gortex jacket and pants, as the BDU version will eventually disappear.

Also, keep metal rank on the Army/Navy windbreaker that is worn with the CSU.  Metal rank will be cheaper than the slides, PLUS no one likes the rank slides on the outerwear anyway.  Especially where it rains or snows, they just get ruined, fade, shrink etc.  In fact, allow metal rank on the outerwear that can accept it.  I would prefer to spend 2.50 for metal than 5.50 for slides that need changed out every 4 months because of water damage.

[ColonelJack]

I like the idea of the enlisted US cutouts (wore 'em myself back in the dim distant past) but wouldn't adoption of those for CAP NCOs require a set of circled CAP cutouts for those NCOs who don't meet AF guidelines?  Not all former AF members keep their fit, trim waistlines, you know. 

I didn't.

Jack

[MIKE]

The CAP cutouts serve as a distinguishing distinctive mark to differentiate CAP SM NCO from USAF NCO for those not wearing epaulet sleeves (Which should be eliminated anyway BTW.)