NHQ Uniform Committee

[pixelwonk]

cease fire.

[Trung Si Ma]

At the risk of making this less than civil ...

Has the golf shirt issue moved up the priority list yet?

I'm going to the Wing Staff meeting tonight and I am sure of only two things -

a) most of us (including me) will be in golf shirts;
b) none of the gray slacks will match.

I am still advocating that y'all change the color to khaki and that you specify a nationally available manufacturer that can also be mail ordered for those that happen to be where there is no mall. 

My personal preference is that we go to only one authorized golf shirt (the embroidered one), in only two options (with name/specialty badge or plain) and that khaki Dockers (pleated or un-pleated, cuffed or un-cuffed) with black belt, socks/hose, and black shoes.

Simple, repeatable, comfortable.

[Gunner C]

The Air Force is not going to consider dropping weight/height or grooming standard requirements for the AF-style uniforms, so we're not going to waste everyone's time going down that route. 

I would have to agree  - It's important that we look like skinny Air Force Professionals with all the others wearing distinctive uniforms rather than looking like a bunch of Curtis LeMays [/sarcasm]

The Air Force (and all of the other services) have officially (albeit indirectly) made sure that all officers will be non-endomorphs with fine features.  (Ever see a field grade military officer who looked like a 1970s lineman for the Detroit Lions? - really fit but too big to be a gentleman).  Every successful officer I know is slim, hat size 7 or less, and weighs less than 200 pounds (your mileage may vary).  Fact is if you don't fit in this profile, you don't look like an officer according to the conventional wisdom.

I never realized this until I heard a group of officers discussing Gen Norman Schwartzcopf (sp?).  He was being excoriated for being a fatso (their words), completely forgetting his military brilliance.  But that's just the way the military is.

The Gunner's Axiom:  Uniforms without uniformity are just costumes.

__
AR

[jeders]

At the risk of making this less than civil ...

Has the golf shirt issue moved up the priority list yet?

I'm going to the Wing Staff meeting tonight and I am sure of only two things -

a) most of us (including me) will be in golf shirts;
b) none of the gray slacks will match.

I am still advocating that y'all change the color to khaki and that you specify a nationally available manufacturer that can also be mail ordered for those that happen to be where there is no mall. 

My personal preference is that we go to only one authorized golf shirt (the embroidered one), in only two options (with name/specialty badge or plain) and that khaki Dockers (pleated or un-pleated, cuffed or un-cuffed) with black belt, socks/hose, and black shoes.

Simple, repeatable, comfortable.

I like your ideas on the golf shirt with these exceptions.

I think that all golf shirts should have the name embroidered on them. I think this just makes sense since all of our other uniforms have names. Also it makes it a lot easier to identify people you don't know at a mission base when most are in golf shirts.

On the pant color, I have absolutely no problem with khakis since most of us either have khakis or can get khakis easily. But I would propose a possible change to the AF style blue pants simply because it eliminates one more pant option, thus making things less confusing.

[LtCol White]

At the risk of making this less than civil ...

Has the golf shirt issue moved up the priority list yet?

I'm going to the Wing Staff meeting tonight and I am sure of only two things -

a) most of us (including me) will be in golf shirts;
b) none of the gray slacks will match.

I am still advocating that y'all change the color to khaki and that you specify a nationally available manufacturer that can also be mail ordered for those that happen to be where there is no mall. 

My personal preference is that we go to only one authorized golf shirt (the embroidered one), in only two options (with name/specialty badge or plain) and that khaki Dockers (pleated or un-pleated, cuffed or un-cuffed) with black belt, socks/hose, and black shoes.

Simple, repeatable, comfortable.

Yes, we are working on  the nonmilitary uniforms as well (golf shirt and Blazer combos). We will be proposing a standard format and a better quality shirt. Also being proposed is to change the trousers to "Dockers" style khaki  pants. Females will be authorized to wear a khaki skirt if the choose. Same change will be proposed for the blazer combo uniform trousers.

[Gunner C]

Yes, we are working on  the nonmilitary uniforms as well (golf shirt and Blazer combos). We will be proposing a standard format and a better quality shirt. Also being proposed is to change the trousers to "Dockers" style khaki  pants. Females will be authorized to wear a khaki skirt if the choose. Same change will be proposed for the blazer combo uniform trousers.

Along the same lines - is anyone working on limiting the use of the golf shirt to non-mission settings.  I've seen pilots flying missions in them.  That's one of the stupidest brainless worst ideas I've seen.  If you've ever had to spend the night in the woods, in the rain or snow, dressed for the golf course instead of for survival you'd know what I'm talking about.  Polyester pants melt, low quarters provide no protection, and you'll die of exposure in a short sleeved shirt in just about any inclement wx.

I may be off base, but there are places where dressing for the PGA Tour just isn't appropriate - not to mention, it makes us look like a flying club instead of a military auxiliary.  Golf shirts at meetings are a whole different ball of wax . . .

GC

[LtCol White]

Yes, we are working on  the nonmilitary uniforms as well (golf shirt and Blazer combos). We will be proposing a standard format and a better quality shirt. Also being proposed is to change the trousers to "Dockers" style khaki  pants. Females will be authorized to wear a khaki skirt if the choose. Same change will be proposed for the blazer combo uniform trousers.

Along the same lines - is anyone working on limiting the use of the golf shirt to non-mission settings.  I've seen pilots flying missions in them.  That's one of the stupidest brainless worst ideas I've seen.  If you've ever had to spend the night in the woods, in the rain or snow, dressed for the golf course instead of for survival you'd know what I'm talking about.  Polyester pants melt, low quarters provide no protection, and you'll die of exposure in a short sleeved shirt in just about any inclement wx.

I may be off base, but there are places where dressing for the PGA Tour just isn't appropriate - not to mention, it makes us look like a flying club instead of a military auxiliary.  Golf shirts at meetings are a whole different ball of wax . . .

GC

Yes, thats all part of the changes for this uniform.

[O-Rex]

Lt Col White:  

Thanks for the pics-this would be a big win for all in harmonizing corp and USAF-style uniforms: TPU's won't stand out unless you're up-close.  Interestingly enough, some of the images harken back to the 1980's-seems like we're coming full-circle.

Works for me.

What's the word on rank for SMWOG's? I always thought that having an SM identical to a C/AB was kind of wrong, but what's six months?  Despite regs, some are using blank boards and cutouts interchangeably.  Why not legitimize the blank boards (heck, even USMA New Cadets, AFA Doolies and Navy Plebes get blank boards)  Or use the U.S. cutouts on the collar of the blue & Aviator shirts?  I've seen OSI and DAF Civilians do this, so I don't see a problem with CAP (?)  Also, plain collars for BDU/BBDU's.

Personally, I think a 2008 intro date for the ABU is a bit aggressive for USAF (they'll probably lean towards 2013 or thereabouts-I'm being conservative) but hey, throw it on the wall and see if it sticks. . . .

Boots: any word on allowing black boots with ABU's for a while?  I gotta think that the black boot market will soften, and have seen some nice markdowns from some popular tactical gear distributors. There should be some fallout from DRMO in the next few years, why not ride that wave?  What about boots with USAF-style flightsuits?

has anyone mentioned a leather-bordered A-2 command patch to harmonize with the brown/black nametag? I had this done to mine, and it was worth the couple of bucks (if you are already going to spend the money on a leather jacket, you're definitely not pinching pennies.)  Athough I usually advocate income opportunity for Vanguard, they stock them for a couple of bucks more: this would be a win/win.

Perhaps I missed it on previous pages, but any word on phasing out the grays?

This is by far one of the most productive and interesting threads I've seen in a while, with good input from all-what blogs should be.  

[LtCol White]

Lt Col White:  

Thanks for the pics-this would be a big win for all in harmonizing corp and USAF-style uniforms: TPU's won't stand out unless you're up-close.  Interestingly enough, some of the images harken back to the 1980's-seems like we're coming full-circle.

Works for me.

What's the word on rank for SMWOG's? I always thought that having an SM identical to a C/AB was kind of wrong, but what's six months?  Despite regs, some are using blank boards and cutouts interchangeably.  Why not legitimize the blank boards (heck, even USMA New Cadets, AFA Doolies and Navy Plebes get blank boards)  Or use the U.S. cutouts on the collar of the blue & Aviator shirts?  I've seen OSI and DAF Civilians do this, so I don't see a problem with CAP (?)  Also, plain collars for BDU/BBDU's.

Personally, I think a 2008 intro date for the ABU is a bit aggressive for USAF (they'll probably lean towards 2013 or thereabouts-I'm being conservative) but hey, throw it on the wall and see if it sticks. . . .

Boots: any word on allowing black boots with ABU's for a while?  I gotta think that the black boot market will soften, and have seen some nice markdowns from some popular tactical gear distributors. There should be some fallout from DRMO in the next few years, why not ride that wave?  What about boots with USAF-style flightsuits?

has anyone mentioned a leather-bordered A-2 command patch to harmonize with the brown/black nametag? I had this done to mine, and it was worth the couple of bucks (if you are already going to spend the money on a leather jacket, you're definitely not pinching pennies.)  Athough I usually advocate income opportunity for Vanguard, they stock them for a couple of bucks more: this would be a win/win.

Perhaps I missed it on previous pages, but any word on phasing out the grays?

This is by far one of the most productive and interesting threads I've seen in a while, with good input from all-what blogs should be.  

All of these are in the works. ABU date is only for initial authorization, not the mandatory change. We just have to see what USAF thinks is possible compared to their logistics.

USAF isn't going to allow black boots with the ABU since it isn't authorized for them.

[Gunner C]

Yes, we are working on  the nonmilitary uniforms as well (golf shirt and Blazer combos). We will be proposing a standard format and a better quality shirt. Also being proposed is to change the trousers to "Dockers" style khaki  pants. Females will be authorized to wear a khaki skirt if the choose. Same change will be proposed for the blazer combo uniform trousers.

Along the same lines - is anyone working on limiting the use of the golf shirt to non-mission settings.  I've seen pilots flying missions in them.  That's one of the stupidest brainless worst ideas I've seen.  If you've ever had to spend the night in the woods, in the rain or snow, dressed for the golf course instead of for survival you'd know what I'm talking about.  Polyester pants melt, low quarters provide no protection, and you'll die of exposure in a short sleeved shirt in just about any inclement wx.

I may be off base, but there are places where dressing for the PGA Tour just isn't appropriate - not to mention, it makes us look like a flying club instead of a military auxiliary.  Golf shirts at meetings are a whole different ball of wax . . .

GC

Yes, thats all part of the changes for this uniform.

That's fantastic!  You and your committee are IMHO right on target.  I think you've found the right compromises between the two uniform types to standardize them.  FWIW, I think it's a shame that the hard rank on the CSU will go by the wayside, but that's the way it is.  We will never get everything we want.

Kudos for going to the membership and getting comments and taking the heat.  You've been given a daunting task, but I think it will produce a more cohesive, professional looking force.

[davedove]

This is not a criticism, just a question.  Why would we phase out the Woodland BDU's?  It would make more sense to me to convert the Woodland BDU's to the corporate field uniform when the ABU's came on board, and phase out the Blue Field Uniform. 

Why?  Many members already have the BDU's, so they would not have to buy a new uniform until it becomes unserviceable.  Only those who really wanted the ABU would have to go out and buy one.  Of course, those with the blue uniform (myself included) would still have to get a new uniform, but I believe that number of members would be much smaller.  Additionally, the ABU's and Woodland BDU's would be closer in color and therefore blend together better, something that the blue uniform does not do.  As far as availability, I wouldn't think that the Woodland BDU's would be any more difficult to get than the blue ones, and may actually be a bit easier to acquire.

Just some thoughts.

[dwb]

BTW, there are about a hundred different shades of "beige" as well, so changing the pants color for the golf shirt/blazer isn't going to solve the problems you think it's going to solve.  And it's an added expense to the member to make that change.

The woodland BDUs will eventually have to go, for all the same reasons the fatigues had to go by the early 90s.  What they will be replaced with is up for debate, but I'm willing to bet by ~2015 you'll have a hard time finding milspec woodland BDUs.

[davedove]

The woodland BDUs will eventually have to go, for all the same reasons the fatigues had to go by the early 90s.  What they will be replaced with is up for debate, but I'm willing to bet by ~2015 you'll have a hard time finding milspec woodland BDUs.

But again, I can't imagine they will be any harder to find than the blue BDU's.  For that matter, it's not really that hard to find the old fatigues.  Sure, you're not going to get them surplus from the military anymore, but you can still find them.

[Hawk200]

The woodland BDUs will eventually have to go, for all the same reasons the fatigues had to go by the early 90s.  What they will be replaced with is up for debate, but I'm willing to bet by ~2015 you'll have a hard time finding milspec woodland BDUs.

Key word is "mil-spec". Even the old jungle fatigues aren't the original materials. Once the military no longer uses them, there won't be any need to produce them in milspec.

Our DCC orders BDU's from the Hock, and you can tell at first glance that they aren't the real deal. Colors too dark, material is too heavy, stitching off on a lot of them. They just don't look right. And that's not going to work when it comes to uniformity. Looks like ragtag survivalist clothing than military.

[davedove]

But how does that compare to the Blue BDU's available?  For instance, you can get the blue ones from BDU.com and they say they are sewn to military specification.  And you can get them in all different colors.

Remember, I'm thinking about the corporate uniforms here.

[Tubacap]

Potential solution to bottoms of the Golf shirt.  I know Khaki's are readily available, but has anyone considered black as a potential bottom?  I know there are a bunch of shades of black, but I think less than khaki or grey.

Just a thought.

[mikeylikey]

What is your problem? No, we aren't going to ask USAF to adjust the height/weight standards BECAUSE they have repeatedly said "it is not an option". You don't ask for something when you know the answer is "No". I HAVE personally spoken with HQ CAP USAF on this.

If you read everyone else's posts, this committee is working QUITE well. I really think you should reconsider why you are a CAP member and whether or not you want to stay in the organization. You don't seem to like much about it at all and have nothing but criticism.

Wow.  So some criticism and I should leave.  It is easy to say "your doing a good job, blah blah blah"......it is more difficult to question the why, how, and reasons of change. 

Don't take my criticism of your "groups work" as a personal attack (it was not). In all fairness......you have repeatedly attacked me.  Play fair Colonel......and don't question a persons service before you question your own.

I commend you for taking on this task.  I will leave it at that.  I look forward to more pictures.  Good day.   

[O-Rex]

I never considered Khakis: nice choice.

If you need a precedent, khaki pants are a required item for OTS for wear with the personalized class polo for certain unformal functions.  The OCS/TBS guidance for Marines is similar, even civilian attire is "uniform."

If the greys are going away, khakis are on the mark: easier to find.

[Hawk200]

But how does that compare to the Blue BDU's available?  For instance, you can get the blue ones from BDU.com and they say they are sewn to military specification.  And you can get them in all different colors.

Remember, I'm thinking about the corporate uniforms here.

There is a call for mil-spec in blue. Police departments wear them, and they need something rugged. I don't see the woodland camo in mil-spec for too much longer as the demand for that camo is decreasing. Many places that wore them are going to some of the digital patterns.

I think blue BDU's will always be pretty much mil-spec, as they're still needed. The woodlands are dying off.

As for polos and khakis, sounds good to me. I might even consider that outfit if it looks presentable enough to me. The current polo seems to be 70's era material. Good source would be the 5.11 polo shirts. Got a few of those, and they wear like iron. Let me wear something like that with their pants too, and I've got plenty of pockets for all the excess stuff I seem to carry whenever I go anyplace.

[Smokey]

The 5.11 polos are a great material.  Many police deptartments wear them.  They are made to stand up under tough conditions as they are often worn as a alternative uniform for special units like bike teams.   They don't fade as quickly, wear very well, are comfortable and embroiderly shows up well.

As for pants with the polo/golf shirt....khaki, black or blue (same shade as shirt) works for me.