NHQ Uniform Committee

[DogCollar]

OH, PLEASE! Changing a $2.00 uniform item over a phase-in time frame of probably several years IS NOT going to break ANYONE'S budget! Most everyone reading this message just stole $2.00 in productivity from their employer. If you or a member you know seriously can't afford new cloth tapes with their new uniform, write me a well thought-out "Dear Oprah" letter with the sob story and I'll buy them myself.

We're NOT talking about $2.00 uniform items and you know it!  Besides, while a $2.00 item is not extravegent, perhaps; but, multiple changes, $2.00 here, $20 there, oh by the way you need to buy the ABU, the BDU is no longer authorized!  Oh yeah, a new style of boot...and on and on and on...eventually adding up to serious money!  And while it may not break my bank account, it goes against the priniciple of trying to reduce wasteful spending wherever possible.

[RogueLeader]

Another thing I would like to see is authorization to have a nametape on the back of the patrol cap- cover- you know what I mean. . . .

[Falshrmjgr]

Wonder how hard it would be to phase in Olive Drab BDUs to replace the Navy Blue ones? It would just look so much more uniform when you're in with a group of camo-wearing folks and you could use the same webgear without it looking really wierd.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Amen!   OD + ABU is much better than ABU + BBDU.  (Geez I miss my Old OG-107's!!!!)

Not to mention the Sage or Desert Boots wouldn't look totally stupid with the OD BDU's.   

So explain to me, in words of one syllable or less, why I (and many others) should have spend a couple hundred dollars to replace perfectly good blue work uniforms for new green uniforms.

Not sure I can use a word of less than one syllable, but here goes... (Dang!  syllable has three syllables...)

My argument is simply this:  Let's look at the long range plan.  I wouldn't propose any short term wear-out date for the BDU or BBDU.  *THAT* is the low impact to member piece.  But from a long range planning perspective, I can already see problems with different tape/thread colors on ABU versus BBDU.  So let's nip the 5 year from now argument in the bud that people don't look alike in uniform.

OD BDU's are going to look a lot more similar to the ABU when standing next to one another.  They are similar enough in color value, that the tapes can be the same, as can any badges.

Furthermore, the military, as a whole is moving away from BLACK BOOTS.  Long term, it makes sense for us to follow.  If we base our planning on the short term, we set ourselves up for more changes to annoy everyone in the future.

Do it once, and do it right.

So for Joe Capper, he doesn't go out and replace anything servicable on his uniform anytime soon.  But when it is time to replace that ratty old set of BDU's or BBDU's, he purchases the new ABU or ODBDU.  What kills people is not the "don't buy this uniform any more, buy this one,"

it's the "Resew all your uniforms by March" changes, and the "You are no longer authorized to wear X as of tommorow" changes.

Although I do have to concur that the incremental cost of uniforms is going up.  Not sure there is an answer for that....

Another thought:  Since folks seem to want to wear the polo shirt with some sort of BDU pant, what about (whatever else is decided) fixing the Polo Shirt Color so that is looks good with the BBDU/BBDU Replacement.  (Black Polo/OD Pants, or Tan Polo BBDU Pants, etc....)

My Goodness I don't envy Lt Col White this job.

[LtCol White]

Embroidered bag tags with CAP wings.

Please do not post photos on this thread. You will create confusion as I am posting proposals for review. Please remove these.

[mikeylikey]

I would suggest making the BDU/ABU nametapes and grade insignia the same as the dark blue on the BBDU's.  This way there's a connection between the two field uniforms.

Looking at it simply, this seems to be the most logical. Instead of replying "Which uniform will you be wearing?" you just tell someone "The navy blue tapes for either field uniform."

Why does the BBDU have to match with it's tapes?  Less BBDU's are worn, why are we going to base changes solely on how that uniform will look in the end?

[mikeylikey]

  It's a lot easier to say "take this dark blue grade - it goes on any of the field uniforms (and hopefully flight uniforms)" than say, "well, this goes on this one but not that one."

Or to say "take this AF ABU rank insignia, and AF ABU pattern nametape and AF ABU Pattern "CAP" branch tape.......   why must we keep the blue??  Nothing wrong with subdues insignia.  NOTHING!

[mikeylikey]

Embroidered bag tags with CAP wings.

Please do not post photos on this thread. You will create confusion as I am posting proposals for review. Please remove these.

Oh come on......they look good!  Are you just mad someone beat you to it? 

I would suggest adding rank to the tag, and emboidered rank insignia instead of plastic encased.  THEN the flight suit will LOOK awesome! 

[LtCol White]

Embroidered bag tags with CAP wings.

Please do not post photos on this thread. You will create confusion as I am posting proposals for review. Please remove these.

Oh come on......they look good!  Are you just mad someone beat you to it? 

I would suggest adding rank to the tag, and emboidered rank insignia instead of plastic encased.  THEN the flight suit will LOOK awesome! 

Not the point. The point is that we will post what will be proposed for comment. I asked originally that members not post photos but that they could PM them or email them to me. There are numerous other threads where people can post any photos they like.

[mikeylikey]

^ Got it.  BUT what do you think of embroidered insignia and tags on the flight suit?

[LtCol White]

^ Got it.  BUT what do you think of embroidered insignia and tags on the flight suit?

We agree and plan to submit it up to USAF for approval. That was addressed earlier on here

[ddelaney103]

I would suggest making the BDU/ABU nametapes and grade insignia the same as the dark blue on the BBDU's.  This way there's a connection between the two field uniforms.

Looking at it simply, this seems to be the most logical. Instead of replying "Which uniform will you be wearing?" you just tell someone "The navy blue tapes for either field uniform."

Why does the BBDU have to match with it's tapes?  Less BBDU's are worn, why are we going to base changes solely on how that uniform will look in the end?

The BBDU's don't have to match their tapes - whatever AF style uniform (ABU/BDU) should have the same tapes as the BBDU.  This way, if you have a mixed bag of ABU and BBDU troops there is at least some bit of commonality between them.

If we are going to have multiple types of uniforms, they should share as many accessories as possible.  Since the AF doesn't want fat/fuzzies in their suits and prescribes distinctive CAP accessories (blue nametapes, gray epaulet covers) we should use them in the corporate suits in order to make linkages b/w the uniforms.

The idea that you need two nametags and two sets of epaulet covers and you determine which one you wear on the white aviator shirt by the color slacks you're wearing is whacked.  If the AF says you wear X on the Service Dress, you should wear X on the TPU.  It fosters uniformity, which is why we should we wearing uniforms.

[ddelaney103]

  It's a lot easier to say "take this dark blue grade - it goes on any of the field uniforms (and hopefully flight uniforms)" than say, "well, this goes on this one but not that one."

Or to say "take this AF ABU rank insignia, and AF ABU pattern nametape and AF ABU Pattern "CAP" branch tape.......   why must we keep the blue??  Nothing wrong with subdues insignia.  NOTHING!

Subdued insignia is a compromise between readability and battlefield necessity.  Before they twigged to the idea that bad guys were shooting at them based on the visible insignia, the services wore full color tapes and grade.  We didn't come up with white on ultramarine blue for the tapes: that was what the AF was wearing at the time.

Since only the people from Tinfoil Hat Comp Sqdn will argue CAP's need to go tactical, our concern should be readability.  White on dark blue beats midnight blue on ABU.

Also, it would be silly to put the ABU tapes on the BBDU and even the suggested ODBDU.  This means two sets of insignia and more delineation b/w the fit and the fat/fuzzy.

One Team, One Fight, One Nametape.

[ctrossen]

FWIW...

I think the general consensus is that we need to cut back on the number of uniforms, and that with the USAF service uniforms, that we'd like to go back to "blue."

I've heard some comments that we should use AFI 36-2903 and just create a CAP-specific supplement to that reg, but I don't think that'll work – just too much confusion having to flip back and forth between two different pubs to figure out how to set up a uniform. On the other hand, I do think that whoever writes the new 39-1 should take the Air Force Instruction (reg), and use it as a template: delete the uniforms that don't apply, but keep the same wording for everything that does apply, changing only the CAP distinctive parts (which would also maintain the same rules for wear – the Command Badge is a prime example).

Also, can we make sure that the uniform "models" are not only wearing the uniforms properly, but convey the appropriate military image? I'll just say that some individuals photograph better than others...

Now, on to the specific uniforms:

USAF-Style

Service Uniforms – If we can't return to a blue epaulet sleeve, then can we get a standardized name plate, one that we can wear with both the corporate and USAF service uniforms? Either we stick with the gray, or go to the two-line blue, or even a single line blue? As it stands, we have four different nameplates (five, if you count the Blazer combo) – silver for the service coat, gray three-line for seniors, blue three-line for cadets, and blue two-line for the CAP distinctive. Can we get down to two?

Cadets – I like the idea of finally getting rid of the cadet shoulder boards for the service coat. They're needlessly expensive, and if you want to maintain a "clean" uniform, the minute you promote from C/Capt to C/Maj, you need a new set. And yes, can we put the shoulder cords back to where they used to be?

Honor Guard Uniform – Do we need it? It is significantly different than the USAF Honor Guard uniform for no apparent reason.

Future USAF Service Uniform – Plan now how to incorporate any future service coat, with a good long timeline for switchover, especially for cadets. Assumably there will be a good supply of the current style of service coats in surplus for a while, which should hopefully supply our cadets for years to come.

BDU – Change the current white/gold on ultramarine insignia to white/gold on sage/OD. We will still maintain distinctiveness by using the full color (white or gold thread), but it won't be as awkward as having the ultramarine or dark blue background. We will be able to use these cloth insignia for more than just this uniform, as well.

ABU – I like the sage/green insignia over the dark blue. See above (and below) – we can use these cloth insignia on a variety of different uniforms to maintain standardization on all of the USAF-style utility uniforms.

Boots – the trend has already gone to the suede-style boots in the military, so let's follow suit. That's the style that will be in the DRMO/surplus channels soon enough.

Flight Suit – Cloth namepatch, definitely. I'll echo the comments that we can either go with the standard USAF colors or even colors as determined by the wing. I'll also advocate going to cloth rank, but go one further – full color on sage/OD.

Command Patch - Let's pick one and stick with it. I personally like the "old" one, but that's IMHO. Whichever one, we use as the standard on all uniforms.


Corporate Style

Nametags – see above. Let's get down to a standardized nametag to wear on both the USAF-style and corporate service uniforms.

Corporate Service Uniform – I may be a lone voice in the wilderness here, but I'd like to see *all* of the insignia on this uniform and the USAF-style uniform the same, which means also the same epaulet slides. (Not including military ribbons, of course, unless the USAF relents.) Obviously, if the Air Force allows us to go back to blue epaulet slides, that would be a no-brainer. But I don't have a major problem with the gray slides, and I would like to see some uniformity *and* keep costs down. Also, lets allow those who don't meet USAF grooming standards wear this uniform as well (so long as they are well-kempt). Additionally, I'd be interested to see a formal version.

White/Blue uniform vs. White/Gray – they serve the same purpose, with the White/Blue uniform seemingly the more popular among members. Allow those not meeting grooming standards to wear the White/Blue and phase out the White/Gray. There's no need to keep both of these uniforms around.

Blazer Uniform – is there any practical reason to keep this uniform around (discounting any IACE arguments; from what I've seen, lately most of the time they sport a polo shirt anyway)? We now have a corporate service uniform, which we historically did not have, so let's send this one to history.

Golf Shirt – Despite what you might think after reading this board for any length of time, this is a very popular uniform combination, both for flying and for "general" use. Here in Wisconsin, it is fairly ubiquitous. Though considering I am in Wisconsin, I would like to see a heavier shirt (and one that is long-sleeved). I like the idea of allowing standard khakis to be worn instead of the gray trousers. One unique proposal, though – can we add a skirt for the females? (This is a request I just received from a new member.)

Field Uniform (Blue BDU) – White/full-color insignia on dark blue background. Don't really know what else to say (though I do like the concept of moving those outside of weight/grooming standards to the standard woodland BDU after a move to ABU).

Utility Uniform (Blue jumpsuit) – I'm not overly thrilled with this uniform combo. It fills the "slot" once occupied by the infamous "Smurf Suit," but other than being a convenient uniform to keep in your trunk and throw on when needed, I don't know that this is a uniform "slot" that needs to be maintained.

Blue Flight Suit – Pricey, but nice looking. Cloth wings and white/full color on dark blue insignia.


Regards, and thanks for taking on this task,

[arajca]

  It's a lot easier to say "take this dark blue grade - it goes on any of the field uniforms (and hopefully flight uniforms)" than say, "well, this goes on this one but not that one."

Or to say "take this AF ABU rank insignia, and AF ABU pattern nametape and AF ABU Pattern "CAP" branch tape.......   why must we keep the blue??  Nothing wrong with subdues insignia.  NOTHING!

Except the AF has repeatedly said "NO" to subdued tapes and insignia.

[AlphaSigOU]

Except the AF has repeatedly said "NO" to subdued tapes and insignia.

Or stated more succinctly in the argot of New Yawk/Noo Joisey: Subdued tapes and insignia for CAP? Fuhgeddaboudit!

[mikeylikey]

  It's a lot easier to say "take this dark blue grade - it goes on any of the field uniforms (and hopefully flight uniforms)" than say, "well, this goes on this one but not that one."

Or to say "take this AF ABU rank insignia, and AF ABU pattern nametape and AF ABU Pattern "CAP" branch tape.......   why must we keep the blue??  Nothing wrong with subdues insignia.  NOTHING!

Except the AF has repeatedly said "NO" to subdued tapes and insignia.

Really?  I never saw that written down from the AF anywhere.  If we put a decent proposal together, instead of the "how about this and that" pondering, we may get what we want.  I would love to get rid of the blue tapes.  A uniform should look clean.....the blue makes it look bad.  Aesthetics are part of this too!

[Hawk200]

Also, people are going to show up with blue on the ABU or sage on the BBDU.  Just have one color: dark blue.  It's a lot easier to say "take this dark blue grade - it goes on any of the field uniforms (and hopefully flight uniforms)" than say, "well, this goes on this one but not that one."

Based on this point, I would have to withdraw support for sage green tapes. Make one set of tapes. Also, there are rank insignia and badges to consider. You can already get rank in navy blue, tapes are easily produced. The badges would also go on existing cloth (they use that cloth for rank insignia anyway).

Vanguard (and many other places) could make that stuff tomorrow. Other colors would require them to buy tapes and cloth that they don't currently have. And you know who's going to foot the bill on their new acquisitions.

Seems like the easiest and best appearing option is navy blue. Might even buy a blue BDU if that was allowed.

[Hawk200]

I never saw that written down from the AF anywhere. 

What makes you think you would? And consider that if we hadn't actually been denied subdued tapes in the past, we'd have them now. Sticking your head in a hole, or sticking fingers in your ears doesn't change the facts.

If we put a decent proposal together, instead of the "how about this and that" pondering, we may get what we want.  I would love to get rid of the blue tapes.  A uniform should look clean.....the blue makes it look bad.  Aesthetics are part of this too!

A lot of people would love to get rid of them. But if we can't, we ask for something less garish. Telling the AF that we are entitled to something is a sure way for them to tell us that they'll handle things from now on. As far as the aesthetics goes, right now the best thing to do is actively seek a reasonable compromise with the AF, not tell them that you'll do as you see fit. And think of it this way, if they approve navy blue tapes, you've won in that round.

[LtCol White]

Also, people are going to show up with blue on the ABU or sage on the BBDU.  Just have one color: dark blue.  It's a lot easier to say "take this dark blue grade - it goes on any of the field uniforms (and hopefully flight uniforms)" than say, "well, this goes on this one but not that one."

Based on this point, I would have to withdraw support for sage green tapes. Make one set of tapes. Also, there are rank insignia and badges to consider. You can already get rank in navy blue, tapes are easily produced. The badges would also go on existing cloth (they use that cloth for rank insignia anyway).

Vanguard (and many other places) could make that stuff tomorrow. Other colors would require them to buy tapes and cloth that they don't currently have. And you know who's going to foot the bill on their new acquisitions.

Seems like the easiest and best appearing option is navy blue. Might even buy a blue BDU if that was allowed.

Why? With all do respect, people arent stupid. I think they can figure out when told that blue goes on blue and green goes on the camo. If they can't understand this, there is a MUCH bigger problem than their uniform.

[Hawk200]

Why? With all do respect, people arent stupid. I think they can figure out when told that blue goes on blue and green goes on the camo. If they can't understand this, there is a MUCH bigger problem than their uniform.

I've run into a few that are living proof of that kind of stupidity.

Anyway, having one set of tapes just makes it simpler. And you can stock your squadron with one supply of everything needed. No double stock to take up space.